101. John Allen Chau: Reckless Missionary or Righteous Martyr?

If you were around for this story in 2018, you remember that it was everywhere. 

An American missionary is killed after attempting to make contact with an isolated tribe that lives on a small island in the Bay of Bengal. 

Criticism was immediate. Swarms of news outlets condemned the man for resurrecting age-old imperialist tactics in defying the tribe's desire for autonomy. Many Christians defended the action, citing the significance of the Great Commission and defending his desire to see lost souls be saved. 

But we know what you're thinking...what do the fearless leaders of Chump Nation think???

Okay in all seriousness, this is a great episode. And we'd love to hear your comments, so let us know what you think! 

Buy us a coffee: https://buymeacoffee.com/chumphistory

Transcript

Mr. Borkavich (00:00.414)
Hey everybody, this is John Simon here with Church History for Chumps. I'm here with Taylor, Bark Bark, Treadway, and Thomas, Meow, Duel. How do you guys like your nicknames this week?

Kim Jung Un (00:09.101)
Park park.

Theotokos Appreciator (00:13.669)
Hahaha

Kim Jung Un (00:17.993)
It's great. Park Park.

Theotokos Appreciator (00:18.37)
Not the best, not the best ever.

Mr. Borkavich (00:22.932)
I just felt like it fit. It just felt like it fit. man, dang. Guys, Thanksgiving right around the corner. How you feeling?

Kim Jung Un (00:32.131)
I just got back from a friend's giving and I had the one of the girls in my Sunday school class. So it was a Sunday school class friends giving. I found out she just like bake sourdough bread on cool down, like just constantly baking. And she brought this honey butter, the cinnamon honey butter that she'd whipped up with this sourdough raisin that she'd made. And I was like.

Mr. Borkavich (00:34.825)
Nice.

Theotokos Appreciator (00:57.134)
Mmm.

Kim Jung Un (01:00.675)
Think if I lived with you I'd be on my 600 pound life Because dude she makes it all the time and it is so it was so good. It so good

Mr. Borkavich (01:09.834)
Yeah.

Man, yeah.

Theotokos Appreciator (01:14.926)
We had a Friendsgiving kind of at church today, the church that we rent from. We got together with them and did a big Thanksgiving meal. We do it every year. And can I just let you guys in on something? And no one that I know listens to this podcast. Nobody from my church would ever hear this. So I know that this will be kept in perfect confidence, but this is the second time. So I think it was two years ago.

when we had this Thanksgiving meal. you know, there's like, like a hundred people bringing stuff. There was no gravy two years ago, which was very difficult for me. It was a trial that the Lord let me endure. And so last year I brought, dude, thank you. And I went through, last year I brought so much gravy. This year I thought surely there'll be gravy. No gravy, no gravy. How's there no gravy?

Mr. Borkavich (01:58.848)
Hmm. Yeah, man.

Kim Jung Un (01:59.435)
I'm so sorry you went through that.

Mr. Borkavich (02:09.76)
Still no gravy? Dude, what's this? Still no pickles!

Kim Jung Un (02:10.734)
Still no, there's I got spongebob instead of still no pickles. It's still no gravy

Theotokos Appreciator (02:18.422)
I mean, there's a lot of good food. Don't get me wrong. That like very good feast. But gravy, man. like, dude, dude, is like gravy in essential at Thanksgiving.

Mr. Borkavich (02:22.335)
Yeah.

There was a dryness to it, you know?

Mr. Borkavich (02:31.7)
Yeah, mean, I, cause I feel like there's so much potential for dry in Thanksgiving. Like stuffing, stuffing can be very dry.

Theotokos Appreciator (02:38.732)
Yeah. Okay. So here, here's the saving grace. People are figuring out how to make turkeys. When I was growing up, people didn't know how to make turkeys. Maybe it was because we didn't have smoker pellet grills back then, but like, dude, people are getting better at making, making chicken and turkeys. They were not dry.

Kim Jung Un (02:56.162)
Dude, people are just like good at cooking now. Like, like my dad will make the best fried turkey ever. And he's done it for like 20 years now. So he like knows what he's doing. Yeah, I get it.

Mr. Borkavich (03:07.072)
Mm-hmm.

Did people used to cook from scratch like they do now? I feel like this is like a newer thing. Cause I definitely grew up and my parents don't listen to this podcast. And I love them both and I'm grateful for how they took care of me. I don't.

Kim Jung Un (03:22.816)
Whatever you're about to say guarantees this is the first episode they're going to listen to.

Mr. Borkavich (03:27.25)
I ate a lot of boxes, man. I ate a lot of freezer stuff and I'm not mad about it. You know, it made me a strong, you know, a good boy, but I don't know. Like then I'd go to my friend's houses and they'd be like, there's mom just churning butter in the back. And I'm like, this is crazy. Why is she making real mashed potatoes? There's a box for that. What are you doing?

Kim Jung Un (03:29.634)
Yeah.

Theotokos Appreciator (03:31.533)
Mm-hmm.

Kim Jung Un (03:48.972)
There's a box for that, baby. Yeah, I don't know. I,

Theotokos Appreciator (03:49.196)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

People have gotten more ingredient conscious.

Kim Jung Un (03:56.567)
Yeah, definitely. My parents always cooked good.

Mr. Borkavich (03:56.692)
Yeah, yeah. But now I'm like a snob. Now I'm like, if I go somewhere, I'm like, I can taste the box in this. What, you didn't have time to? all right. I guess I can handle this. Yeah.

Kim Jung Un (04:04.034)
You're like, did this steak come from a butcher or a carne asada? Oh, Costco? I'll settle.

Kim Jung Un (04:13.184)
Right. Kroger, ew.

Mr. Borkavich (04:16.413)
I can do better. We can all do better. Yeah.

Kim Jung Un (04:19.126)
Yeah, do better. Well, follow us on Instagram, friends. Like us on

Mr. Borkavich (04:25.311)
Oh yeah, was such a smooth transition to our call to action. Yeah, man. Salisbury stakes are awful. Anyways, follow us on Instagram and.

Kim Jung Un (04:29.218)
Like us on Instagram and Facebook

Yeah

Theotokos Appreciator (04:38.36)
Hahaha

Kim Jung Un (04:39.584)
Hit us, hit us up on Spotify comments. Hit that follow button.

Mr. Borkavich (04:45.427)
Dude, yeah, we're almost at a thousand Spotify followers, which is such a mind-boggling milestone to hit. So yeah, if you could follow us, that'd be amazing. I'm not even sure. No, I definitely do. I definitely do. I was probably our first follower, to be honest.

Kim Jung Un (04:55.936)
I should probably follow the podcast, huh? Let me make sure. I'm going to just double check.

Theotokos Appreciator (05:06.03)
Do you get notifications when we drop on Spotify? I do too, yeah.

Mr. Borkavich (05:06.574)
Yeah, I do. I do. Yep. Yep. And it's honestly, it's a good reminder because I wake up in the morning and I see that we dropped and you know, nothing, nothing went wrong. Cause I think there been a couple of times when this was early, early chump cast days when I would just forget to do something on our hosting site and be like, why didn't I get a notification and have a panic attack? Yeah. I've also had some misspellings in a

Theotokos Appreciator (05:30.456)
Hmm.

Mr. Borkavich (05:33.821)
in our podcast titles, which was a rough, rude awakening to have to be like, aw crap, I spelled this guy's name wrong. Yeah.

Kim Jung Un (05:42.967)
Well, we've definitely I do follow. I amen. You're welcome. We've definitely polished it up over time. Like we've gotten better. We've gotten better at research. I think we'll only continue getting better. Why we're still in our Tucky talk. I got to ask how's your guys's crusade research going?

Theotokos Appreciator (05:43.064)
God is a God of grace.

Mr. Borkavich (05:46.729)
Thanks, man. Yeah.

Mr. Borkavich (05:54.237)
I think so.

Mr. Borkavich (05:58.357)
Mm-hmm.

Mr. Borkavich (06:04.829)
It's heavy, man. There's a lot. It's the lot.

Kim Jung Un (06:07.522)
I made the joke with Tommy about how he would get really invested in ships involved in the Crusades. And then I proceeded to hear a fascinating story about this merchant guy who had a fleet that would transport ships. And there's drama involved. And I went, dang it. I'm going to have to tell Tommy to find that guy and do an episode.

Theotokos Appreciator (06:08.782)
I'm good.

Theotokos Appreciator (06:16.055)
Yeah.

Mr. Borkavich (06:27.369)
Dude, I-

Dude, I spent an hour watching a YouTube video just breaking down the science and strategy of siege warfare. Cause I was just like, I just want to understand this better. What was happening in Antioch?

Kim Jung Un (06:40.494)
dude, me too. Yeah. Isn't it crazy that like only three castles or something have like ever fallen?

Mr. Borkavich (06:51.265)
yeah. Yeah. I don't know.

Kim Jung Un (06:52.64)
Yeah, basically if you sat behind a castle, you could have like 12 guys and a toddler and you could fend off legions. like legions, they couldn't do it.

Mr. Borkavich (07:04.713)
Well, and so many sieges were essentially just hostage situations. Like so many sieges where they would just, the people inside would just freak out and be like, please don't throw our walls down. Like that would ruin us. Whatever you want, just, just take it. Like they were just, they would just go to negotiations essentially.

Kim Jung Un (07:19.809)
Yeah.

just immediately, like the army's there. All right, they mean it. They don't, we don't want them to come in. They don't want to come in.

Mr. Borkavich (07:26.077)
Yeah, you guys look strong.

Yeah, my favorite thing about sieges was that sometimes, and I forget which siege was in, I guess it wouldn't matter, but you build a tower that's taller than the walls of the place that you're sieging. And so you just look down and you just start just pissing arrows down to the people defending the wall. That's such a funny but goofy strategy. I don't know. I just love it.

Kim Jung Un (07:52.407)
Yeah.

Kim Jung Un (07:56.547)
Yeah. See, as a kid, I watched Lord of the Rings. I watched Helm's Deep on repeat like 400 times, right? So I was like, I was like, this is what Siege Warfare was like. And then it was just a lot of sitting in a field or behind a wall.

Mr. Borkavich (08:03.869)
I'm starting to get it.

Theotokos Appreciator (08:09.443)
Huh.

Theotokos Appreciator (08:13.452)
You learned that the real way in is just use the suicide bomber and just blow up the wall. Yeah.

Mr. Borkavich (08:13.469)
Yeah.

Kim Jung Un (08:17.762)
Yeah, that's what I thought happened. Yeah. So, and then I've now got my algorithm feeding me crusader things. And like every six TikToks, I get that Russian guy saying, Ave, ave, Christus Rex. And like, whatever.

Mr. Borkavich (08:19.826)
you

Mr. Borkavich (08:27.155)
Mm.

Theotokos Appreciator (08:38.414)
and get you amped up in the middle of your day.

Kim Jung Un (08:40.6)
dude, it gets me so amped up. And when I was in Florida, I said pretty loudly, I was looking at my buddy and I was like, you know, man, I'm like really into the Crusades right now. And his eyes got all wide and he's like, don't say that too loud.

Mr. Borkavich (08:53.107)
No, no, no, it's good. It's good. It's good.

Theotokos Appreciator (08:53.292)
I need to, I still haven't watched it, but Steffi got me the, the director's cut of the kingdom of heaven. Yep. So I'm looking forward to watching that.

Kim Jung Un (09:01.622)
Kingdom of

Mr. Borkavich (09:07.497)
I don't think I've watched that, but I've heard it is good. I've heard it is good. Yeah. All right, boys, you ready? Let's, we got an interesting topic today. So again, for our listeners who are not informed, we will be doing the Crusades for as long as the Lord allows, starting the first week of January. So as a little cushion in between, we're just kind of doing.

Kim Jung Un (09:14.039)
Yeah.

Kim Jung Un (09:27.458)
That's right.

Mr. Borkavich (09:32.393)
doing some topics that have excited us over the past few months that we haven't been able to get into because we were, of course, very early church focused for a while. So yeah, we were kind of bouncing all around, but don't worry, we're going to get focused again. Just let us have fun for a little bit.

Kim Jung Un (09:47.178)
We're kind of just turning into chump theology.

Mr. Borkavich (09:51.617)
little bit but this one's this one's there's definitely a story to this one it's definitely a story so here we go hear me out this is this is I think I'm very curious about the conversations we're gonna have but I think it'll be fun all right cold open time in January of 2006 two fishermen from India were illegally attempting to harvest crabs off the coast of a remote island they failed to anchor

Kim Jung Un (09:54.754)
Okay, all right, okay, all right.

Mr. Borkavich (10:18.132)
So their boat drifted unbeknownst to them as they slept as the night passed. Nearby fishermen noticed where their boat was headed and attempted to get their attention, but they were unsuccessful. The boat ran adrift of North Sentinel Island, an island in the Bay of Bengal, north of the Indian Ocean. The island is populated by one of the few remaining uncontacted indigenous communities left on earth.

The people of this tribe are notoriously unfriendly to visitors. The two men were attacked by the tribe and killed with axes. Their bodies were later placed on bamboo stakes and positioned facing outward on the beach like scarecrows. A few days later, the bodies were removed and buried. As I write this, I have to confess that I feel conflicted.

I certainly don't mean to present these people as savages, like some kind of tribe of knuckle-dragging subhumans, but they were unflinchingly private, and as we'll continue to see, they were unafraid to use violence to preserve their privacy. For a modern-day missionary, the North Sentinelese Islands was the final boss of all final bosses. There was no easy way to visit this island. They were legally protected from outside contact.

There was no way to speak or learn their language without visiting and all signs pointed towards hostility. You'd have to be crazy to visit them or at the very least very confident in the direction of the Lord. Or maybe your name might just be John Allen Chow. Bum bum. All right. So.

Kim Jung Un (12:02.496)
BOOM

Mr. Borkavich (12:07.72)
into our story here. So first off, have you guys heard this story? Because this was really big like, gosh, seven years ago when it happened.

Kim Jung Un (12:15.724)
Yeah.

Theotokos Appreciator (12:15.726)
I only heard about it one time on a church history for chumps episode where we briefly discussed this story and said we were going to return to it and chop up the ethics. So I'm, looking forward to hearing more. Dude, I'm looking up their Google maps of North Sentinel Island right now. And there's a picture of, there's like one picture for North Sentinel Island and it's just a picture of.

Mr. Borkavich (12:20.629)
Really?

Kim Jung Un (12:29.004)
today is that day, I guess. I

Mr. Borkavich (12:31.195)
Yeah, here we are. Here we are.

Theotokos Appreciator (12:45.782)
like dudes with spears like jumping around on the on the beach or my gosh okay

Mr. Borkavich (12:48.842)
That's like, that's like the picture. Yeah. So we'll get into that. We'll get into that.

Kim Jung Un (12:52.0)
I fell down a rabbit hole of North Sentinel Island for a little while. so did you guys know they have a building project going on? Everybody's looking at photographs from space, really curious what they're building. Yeah, they cleared out an area of trees. We're all really rooting for them.

Mr. Borkavich (13:02.208)
Currently.

Mr. Borkavich (13:12.168)
I'm a little worried about that. Okay. All right. So.

Theotokos Appreciator (13:16.227)
I'm

Kim Jung Un (13:16.802)
Probably Outback Steakhouse.

Mr. Borkavich (13:20.404)
Probably another Dutch Bros, man. Just another one of those freaking express car wash. That's hilarious. All right. Okay. So, so yeah, I mean, this is, this is very, this is about as modern as church history gets and yeah, it's, mean, it's, yeah, whatever, whatever, whatever.

Kim Jung Un (13:21.964)
You

Theotokos Appreciator (13:23.444)
everywhere from mattress firm

Kim Jung Un (13:25.698)
Yes, dude, that's actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kim Jung Un (13:37.674)
It's not history and that's okay.

Mr. Borkavich (13:42.687)
I'm not listening to commentary. We've got stuff to talk about. right. But I do want to, mean, this is a very con this is a, if you've heard of it, you already know this is an extremely controversial thing. when reports of John Chow's death emerged, it was kind of went viral. It was all over the news and he was heavily, heavily criticized. So this is a very controversial thing. And I think there's a lot of, you know, me, Johnny nuance over here. I think there's a lot of gray areas to get into, but let's explore.

Kim Jung Un (14:12.567)
Johnny nuance, I like it.

Mr. Borkavich (14:13.0)
So Johnny nuance, man. All right. So John Allen Chow born in December of 1991, which is absolutely crazy. This dude was born like nine months before I was. So yeah, it's not history. He was born in Alabama, Alabama here in the U S of A. He grew up in Vancouver, Washington, grew up.

I think his dad was a Chinese dude, psychiatrist. His mom was a European gal. I think she worked for Chi Alpha, which is a campus ministry, pretty well known across the country. He grew up evangelical Christian, went to Vancouver Christian School, went to study at Oral Roberts University, which is a pretty well known, fairly conservative evangelical.

college here in the States in Tulsa, Oklahoma. He was very involved. He very extroverted guy. He managed the soccer team, graduated with honors with a bachelor's in exercise science. And so dude gets into his twenties. He's got his degree under his belt. And honestly, like I super relate because honestly, dude is very close in age to me and you know, I'm 33 now. And so.

I certainly remember this feeling, but when he was in his twenties, he was feeling really aimless, feeling like, you know, I've got my degree. I don't quite know what I want to do, but I know that I'm very passionate about my faith. I know that I would love to do something, sacrificial for the Lord. I'd love to really put myself out there and just dedicate myself to the kingdom. Like I genuinely am like, if I, if I like lived within a

like close to this guy, we would have a hundred percent had conversations, probably smoking hookah together, just like, yeah, dude, I don't know what I want to do, but I just know that I really want to do something for God. Like I know that I'm called to do something for the kingdom. So I super get that. His friends say that around this time he watched this film, I think it was from 2005 called End of the Spear, which was a film about the story of Jim Elliot.

Mr. Borkavich (16:31.905)
And Jim Elliott, along with Nate Saint and a few other gentlemen were in, I think in the 1950s, they were American missionaries who visited a remote tribe in Ecuador, planning to spread the gospel, share the good news. And all five of them were killed because again, there was a lot of hostility from that native tribe. And the amazing part of that story is that,

the wives of the missionaries, including Elizabeth Elliott, who is a really well-known American missionary, returns to the tribe and unlike their husbands, were accepted. And the tribe's people accepted them into their community and a lot of them converted to the faith. And it became this like incredible triumph of not just the bravery and the courage of folks like Jim Elliott.

but the perseverance of their spouses and their family and just the goodness of the gospel that it was still able to break all of these cultural, language, national barriers to really take root. so John was just incredibly inspired by just the courage of this. His family said that he was always just a natural adventurer. He loved going on hikes. He loved exploring with his friends and family. He was...

I think a term that I would call like a restless Christian, which is a term that I use with a lot of endearment because I know a lot of people who fit this category. It's like the folks who just like, you know, they struggle to settle down. They're kind of like wanderers. They're kind of nomads. But when you meet them, you just have no doubt that they have.

Like not just a love for Jesus, but that they're just loving people. Like everyone who talks about this guy was just like, he was the nicest guy. He was considerate. He would just see you when you were having a hard time and he would let you know that he cared about you, that he loved you, that he was praying for you. Like literally no one had anything but good things to say about this guy. But again, he just had this adventurous spirit. He wanted to do something big and bold and really put himself out there. So that was kind of the origin here.

Mr. Borkavich (18:41.993)
Any thoughts from you boys before we keep going into the North Sentinel Islands themselves?

Theotokos Appreciator (18:49.324)
I mean, it just sounds like, like you've said, it sounds like someone we would know, you know, somebody who's on fire for Jesus and just looking for opportunity to do something bold.

Mr. Borkavich (18:52.841)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mr. Borkavich (19:01.311)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kim Jung Un (19:01.411)
I don't want to get too deep too quick here, but I do think there is something that should be applauded. I think the world would look a lot different if more young men had that fervor and zeal that he had. So I think the idea of wanting to do something great and risky is something that should be applauded. And we applaud that in our, you know.

Now I'm going to sound like the Marxist, our little capitalistic. Tommy's eyebrows went straight up. He's like, what's this boy about to say?

Theotokos Appreciator (19:38.529)
on ODD.

Mr. Borkavich (19:39.467)
I love it. I love it. My Marxist gospel is spreading.

Kim Jung Un (19:43.788)
Yeah, my gosh. But no, dude, if I was like 24 and I was like, dude, I'm gonna like live out of my car and start a business and everyone would be like, dude, and I'm gonna grind super hard and I'm gonna make it happen and be like, that's the American dream. And then poor John Chow's like, I'm gonna go take the gospel to a group of people that have never heard it. Okay, all right, imperialist little scum. Calm down.

Mr. Borkavich (19:59.106)
Mm-hmm.

Theotokos Appreciator (20:08.426)
Thank you.

Mr. Borkavich (20:09.663)
Yeah, I've got some very similar takes that are very, yeah, yeah, but I'm gonna build, I'm gonna keep building, but no, I love that. No, no, no, no, no, you're fine. I love that. I love the little sample of what's to come, little foreshadowing. Okay, so big turning point for this man's life is he's gonna learn about the North Sentinel Island, which we're gonna get into their history a little bit, because we're a history show and we like talking about this stuff. So the North Sentinel Islands is totally remote.

Kim Jung Un (20:13.987)
All right, yeah, yeah, well, I didn't mean to get to the end, but yeah.

Mr. Borkavich (20:38.205)
off the coast are actually kind of in between. So it's Bay of Bengal, north of the Indian Ocean, sort of between India and Myanmar. It is the last island among this batch of islands called the Andaman, the Andaman and Nicobar Islands. Now, the Andamans is really interesting because they've had many interactions with the Western world.

They were first colonized by Denmark in the 1700s, but apparently it was a pretty off and on failed experience because Denmark would settle it and then there'd be countless outbreaks of malaria. So then they'd abandon it and then a few years later go back and then the malaria would come back. so it was just, it wasn't much of a successful colony. Mid 1800s, it'll be settled by the British when Britain had really deep roots in India.

Kim Jung Un (21:26.435)
Mmm.

Mr. Borkavich (21:33.986)
And they're gonna settle the Andamans as a penal colony. So very similar to how Australia was originally settled, where they're basically gonna use it to send prisoners from the Indian colony. So you can imagine that being a very, very, you know, challenging thing for that time period. During World War II, it's briefly gonna be occupied by the Japanese. And then 1947 comes...

India is finally gonna gain its independence from the British Empire. It's gonna cast off its, you know, the British occupation. And when the British leave India, they also leave the Andamans as well. So among the Andaman and Nicobar Islands, there are six indigenous people groups, including the Andamanese, the Ongay, the Jarawa, and of course the Sentinelese.

And of these groups, the only one to successfully long-term maintain isolation from the outside world is the Sentinelese, mostly because they're isolated on their own little island, which is much smaller than the Andamans, and it's about four and a half miles wide. Estimates say that their population is probably between 50 and 200 people. The Indian government has, I think, tried to take a census of their people, but...

Theotokos Appreciator (22:51.244)
Wow, it's pretty small.

Mr. Borkavich (22:57.249)
I mean, it's kind of hard because there's basically this very wide open beach and then there's just tons of really, really dense foliage. So it's hard to get to tell if you're really getting an accurate count, but it seems to be 50 and 200. So real small, real small, most likely. The Indian government since the forties has had sporadic attempts to make contact with them, usually offering gifts and food and the results seems to differ.

sometimes there was like some gratitude and it seemed like it was a pretty positive interaction and sometimes they would show up and dudes would just pull out like bows and arrows and stuff like that. Yeah, the Sensenlis are a hunter-gatherer tribe. are, you know, you can, like Thomas said, pull up pictures of them online. They kind of look like what you would imagine most remote indigenous tribes looking like.

wear, you know, pretty sparse clothing. They have very primitive weapons, spears, bows and arrows. They, like I said, they hunt and gather. So I think they just, they, their diet consists mostly of the seafood that they kill off the coast. And I think there were some, I forget what like the livestock or whatever was on the, on the island itself.

In 1956, the Indian government passed the Andaman and Nicobar Islands Protection of Aboriginal Tribes Regulation, essentially forbidding contact with this tribe, including travel within five nautical miles of the island. The reasons for this act are usually summed up as protection from the modern germs and illnesses that their immune systems are not prepared for, protection of their native culture, and protection of their climate.

many defenders of this prohibition often point to the treatment of the rest of the Andaman and Nicobar Islands where many native populations have dwindled and natural resources have been severely impacted due to the influence of the Europeans. So, he's learning all this stuff. Yeah, very interesting history, but he's learning all this stuff. What do you think, Tay?

Kim Jung Un (25:13.571)
Okay, of those three reasons are dumb. Well, we want to preserve their culture. What culture? They shoot people that show up on ships. They just shoot at them. Like, what culture do you want to preserve? And then secondly, the second point that's dumb, the ecosystem. mean there's one tiny little island, like means more to you than...

these people that are like living in squalor and barbarism. I don't know. What was what was the first reason?

Mr. Borkavich (25:47.413)
Yeah?

Theotokos Appreciator (25:47.694)
I infectious diseases.

Mr. Borkavich (25:50.718)
yeah, germs.

Kim Jung Un (25:51.876)
yeah, don't we have science for that?

Hasn't the Lord granted us science?

Theotokos Appreciator (25:58.606)
I mean, if you can get the Sentinelese people to line up for some vaccinations, but it sounds like they're not willing to do that.

Kim Jung Un (26:02.499)
Dr. Fauci's here, boys.

Mr. Borkavich (26:04.289)
They're probably not, yeah.

Yeah, I don't know, man. mean, I don't want to like, I mean, definitely, I think that by any definition, they have a culture that we would consider primitive. I think I could even say is objectively primitive, but I don't know. I don't think their entire culture is encapsulated in

know, waving sticks around and shooting at people. Like they have a language, like they have, they have customs, they have ways of doing things. I'm not saying that those things can't be integrated with the gospel, which is what our boy is going to try to do. But I don't know, culture is not an inherently bad thing just because it's got some crappy stuff in it.

Kim Jung Un (26:33.854)
Sure.

Kim Jung Un (26:44.291)
I agree with that sentiment, but I don't know to like use that as an example. Like we don't even know what their culture is. We have no idea. And we're like, well, we want to defend it.

Mr. Borkavich (26:53.065)
Right, right, and that's...

Theotokos Appreciator (26:53.902)
Something tells me that India can't figure out much of a use for that island otherwise I feel like they would probably have a different position. To me it seems like an odd thing for the Indian government of all governments to be like, we're gonna go out of our way to protect these 200 people unless it's a sign. To me it seems like maybe they're almost like a token.

like symbol of like an anti kind of western or anti-imperialism

Mr. Borkavich (27:30.739)
Well, I think it's a globalist thing too, because like the part of the world where they most have to deal with these conversations of what to do with uncontacted tribes is far and away South America. But I think that India can probably get dapps in the globalist sphere if they're like, we're doing our part to protect these vulnerable peoples. Because I do think among like anthropologists, that is a very big conversation of like

Theotokos Appreciator (27:53.656)
Mm-hmm.

Mr. Borkavich (28:00.45)
how are we treating these people who have chosen to seclude themselves and yeah, by any measure are vulnerable to, mean, they'd be, I mean, let's be honest, like they'd be vulnerable to any type of military strike, to any type of like, you know, somebody sneezes on them and they get malaria, like, yeah, like they, so I can see India.

I don't want to say it's posturing because I don't want to just like assume that but also yeah like you said it's a four and a half mile wide island like I don't think there's gonna be some incredible resource there yeah getting back to our boy Mr. Chow

Theotokos Appreciator (28:38.05)
Hmm, interesting.

Mr. Borkavich (28:45.939)
So he references in a lot of his journals. So this was interesting. He wrote in a journal for quite a while, especially leading up to his eventual travels to the North Sentinel East. And I think his journal was recovered and given back to his family. And his family decided they were going to publish it because they felt like they wanted the world to kind of know their boy in his own words. So we have a lot of journal entries that kind of give us the mind of what this dude was thinking of.

And his whole thing was he had a very, I think we could call this a very pre-millennial interpretation that we hear a lot in missions where it's like, if like every tribe and nation needs to hear the gospel, like the good news, because that's kind of the final key for Christ's return to be unlocked. So I don't think he had like, I don't think that was the only thing motivating his mission work. I think he definitely mentioned like, God,

is like he said that like in prayer not you know using the Lord's name in vain but saying like Lord is is is this island like Satan's last stronghold like so is that you know is this is this a possibility but it was also became very very clear that he was like I love these people and I don't want them to perish like I want them to to know Jesus and to experience everlasting life and he just was like

I'm willing to go all out. And what's cool is like, when you see him kind of planning for the future and thinking through the possibilities of what happens, one thing is clear. He is not excited about dying, but he's very aware that he might. he's also like, he's like, if this works out and if they accept me, he's like, I'm willing to spend the rest of my life here. Like I'm willing to completely get.

involved in their community and to learn the language and I may never see my family again and that would be very hard but I'm willing to do that because that's that's what I feel called to do so he was like he was not just like looking for some adventure like with his GoPro on his head and then gonna post a YouTube video and skirt back to LA like no he was like he really believed in this

Kim Jung Un (31:00.823)
There was a guy that just did that recently. Yeah, yeah.

Mr. Borkavich (31:03.713)
Yeah, like a year ago, a YouTuber, 100%. Yeah.

Theotokos Appreciator (31:07.02)
He went to North Sentinel Island?

Mr. Borkavich (31:09.233)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. So he's going to get connected with a missions agency called All Nations. And he's going to share with them right off the bat, hey, this is what I really want to do. This is where I'd like to go. And it seems like the leaders were very hesitant because they were like, you don't really have any missions experience. This is a very dangerous place to go. But nevertheless, they provide him with training. They provide him with mentorship. And then it seems like he just kind of did the rest by himself. I don't think.

there was really any direct oversight. I don't think you could say he was sent by any organization. That's where things get kind of interesting is how much involvement did he really have with a body? Like I watched a documentary where a pastor who John had sought counsel from was basically like, yeah, I heard him talk about North Central East Island. I told him it was probably not a great idea, but I also didn't want to tell him.

not to go. I kind of wanted to just kind of help him with the process and then just chose to go anyway. So John was not really looking for anyone to push him but he also wasn't really asking for advice. So I don't know, different things there. So the trip. October of 2018. He's gonna find himself in Port Blair which is the capital of the Andaman Islands.

He's going to prepare a backpack and a kit full of everything from medical supplies to potential gifts for the natives, food for the natives, cards with pictures on them for communicating with the natives. He's going to meet with some fishermen who he's going to pay off to illegally take him up close to the islands where he can kind of paddle there with his own little kayak.

And I'm gonna read a few of his journal entries that are gonna correlate with all the stuff here. So here's one of his journal entries. says, his plan, God's plan, will succeed. And I pray that not my will nor my plan be done, but only his good, pleasing, and perfect will, forever you, Jesus, are to be praised. And then he said, I left last night around 10 o'clock.

Mr. Borkavich (33:22.695)
and I, I'm sorry, around eight o'clock and I arrived around 1030 or so. But as we went north along the eastern shore, we saw boat lights in the distance along the north shore and turned around. Headed south along the eastern shore and evaded them, went along the southern shore and up along the western shore. All along the way, our boat was highlighted by bioluminescent planktons. And as fish jumped nearby, we could see their line darting, mermaids shimmering along.

The Milky Way was above and God himself was shielding us from the Coast Guard and Navy patrols. On November 15th, a fishing boat will take him close to the shore and against warnings from the fishermen, he will take a kayak closer to the island, but will quickly retreat because the Sentinelese people are going to notice him and they are not jazzed to have him come.

In his journal, he writes, turned and paddled like I never have in my life back to the boat. I felt some fear, but mainly was disappointed that they didn't accept me right away. I can now say I've been nearly shot by the Sentinelese. Later on, he's going to return again, probably the same day, this time close enough to deliver some gifts and food and kind of get a little more up close.

He is going to be shot at with an arrow and one is going to pierce a Bible that he's holding up to his chest. And so he's like, wow, God is going to protect me. This is good. And then this was something he wrote that night. He says, Lord, if you want me to actually, if you want me to get actually shot or even killed with an arrow, then so be it. I think I could be more useful alive though.

But to you, God, I give all the glory of whatever happens. I don't want to die. Would it be wiser to leave and let someone else continue? No, I don't think so. I'm stuck here anyway without a passport and I've been off the grid. I still could make it back to the US somehow as it almost seems like certain deaths to stay here. Yet there is evidence change in just two encounters in a single day. I will try again tomorrow. On November 17th, he asked the fishing boat that was assisting his journey to leave him as he made yet another

Mr. Borkavich (35:39.198)
attempts to contact the people. It was at this time that John was killed by the Sentinelese with fishermen later witnessing them dragging his body on the corpse or on the beach to be buried. The last words in John's journal read as follows. You guys may think I'm crazy and all this, but I think it's worth it to declare Jesus to these people. Please do not be angry at them or at God if I get killed. Rather, please live your lives in obedience to whatever he has called you to, and I'll see you again when you pass through the veil.

Don't retrieve my body, this is not a pointless thing. The eternal lives of this tribe is at hand and I can't wait to see them around the throne of God, worshiping in their own language as Revelation says. I pray that you will never love anything in this world more than you love Christ. Soli Deo Gloria, John Chao.

Theotokos Appreciator (36:26.636)
Wow.

Kim Jung Un (36:27.212)
my gosh, it's so good and poetic and biblical.

Mr. Borkavich (36:33.153)
Hahaha

Kim Jung Un (36:35.299)
and like, lucid, right? Like, he's not some crazy, he's not a crazy guy.

Theotokos Appreciator (36:35.693)
Wow.

Mr. Borkavich (36:40.693)
He's not crazy. He's not crazy. Yeah.

Kim Jung Un (36:43.043)
my gosh.

Theotokos Appreciator (36:47.086)
Hmm, that's sobering.

Kim Jung Un (36:47.747)
It's kind of messed up that the arrow pierced the Bible, because I would have thought too, I would have been like, that was, yeah dude, yes, yes, I would have been like, oh man, he's taking care of me, baby.

Mr. Borkavich (36:47.764)
Yeah.

Mr. Borkavich (36:55.349)
God's got me. I am good. Yeah. So as you guys are ruminating, I'm going to read a couple of responses. So like I said, this happened in 2018 news stories. Of course, we're broadcasting this all over the world and I'll read two.

statements released. One is from All Nations International, which is the organization that it helps provide Johnson training. And one is from an organization called Survival International, which is a, I think a nonprofit organization that kind of sees about the protection of these types of indigenous communities.

Theotokos Appreciator (37:39.054)
Before you read those, can I ask a clarifying question? How did they get his diary? Like did the natives not take his stuff? He left it on the beach or?

Mr. Borkavich (37:47.778)
I think he left it. I think he might have left it with the fishermen. Yeah, yeah, that's my guess. Because the Indian government actually tried several times to retrieve his body, but it seemed like there was conflict or risk, and they eventually decided to just call it off. I'm hoping that there was some closure in John actually saying not to retrieve my body, but yeah.

Kim Jung Un (37:52.419)
in the boat.

Theotokos Appreciator (37:52.679)
okay. Okay.

Mr. Borkavich (38:15.721)
So from All Nations, this is Dr. Mary Ho, International Executive Leader. She says, All Nations grieves the death of All Nations Missionary John Allen Chow, which is actually, she calls him All Nations Missionary. So immediate affiliation, is a big deal. When we pray for his family and friends that every life will be comforted, we also pray the Sentinelese will hear and receive the good news of Jesus Christ. We are honored to have shared John's unique missions journey.

Kim Jung Un (38:29.238)
they claimed they claimed him.

Mr. Borkavich (38:42.975)
His God-given calling to reach the Sentinelese people was an unusual one. believed he was joining God's mission to share his love with them. John's motivation was one of love, to bless the Sentinelese. Still today, no one from the outside has learned the way they speak or think. Yet John went carrying no weapon, only a Bible and fish, gifts they would recognize. As a former student of linguistics, John longed to listen to their tongue and eventually come to know their hearts. Faith propelled John. Love moved him.

He was willing to sacrifice his own life in order that the Sentinelese might one day know of Jesus' love. He went with a heart to give, even his very life. We honor John's life and legacy and are inspired. May we offer our lives afresh and ask, to whom, Lord, are you calling us to love and serve?

Mr. Borkavich (39:31.97)
And then here I'll read this one too, just to muddy the waters, which again, we can anticipate this is not going to be as positive. This is from Sophie Grieg of Survival International. She says, the Sentinelese have shown again and again that they want to be left alone and their wishes should be respected. The British colonial occupation of the Andaman Islands decimated the tribes living there.

wiping out thousands of tribes people and only a fraction of the original population now survive. So the Sentinelese fear of outsiders is very understandable. Uncontacted tribes must have their lands properly protected. They're the most vulnerable people on the planet. Whole populations are being wiped out by violence from outsiders who steal their land and resources and by diseases like the flu and measles to which they have no resistance. Tribes like the Sentinelese face catastrophe unless their land is protected.

I hope this tragedy acts as a wake-up call to the Indian authorities to avert another disaster and properly protect the land of both the Sentinelese and the other Andaman tribes from further invaders.

Theotokos Appreciator (40:38.222)
Hmm, don't care.

Kim Jung Un (40:42.051)
Which mission group was that?

Mr. Borkavich (40:43.829)
I'm just saying, man. It's part of the story. Survival International. No, it's not a mission group. No. Yeah, that was a nonprofit that basically advocates for, it's like advocacy rights for uncontacted indigenous groups, yeah.

Theotokos Appreciator (40:46.51)
It's not a mission group.

Kim Jung Un (40:49.507)
Theotokos Appreciator (40:57.942)
Indigenous groups,

Yeah, I mean, I don't see, I don't even understand like that philosophy even from like a secular standpoint. Like if you remove, you remove like the gospel equation out of it and I don't even understand that. Like you've got, if there's really only 200 people on this island, you know, and they're like that close to being on the

like precipice of like total societal collapse, you know? If we really actually cared about their culture, then there would be more of an effort to actually try to, you know, build those sorts of relations and help them. But I don't think that that's actually in people's view.

Mr. Borkavich (41:36.416)
Mm-hmm.

Kim Jung Un (41:52.568)
It's rooted in, I know the word of the, our word of the six months is Marxism. It's rooted in Marxism. They hate our culture. They hate us. Like they hate themselves. They hate our culture. So they just don't want it spread or whatever. Like you're right, Tommy. There's no consistency in it. You can't make an argument from any sort of perspective that leaving them alone is the kind thing to do, right?

Theotokos Appreciator (42:22.446)
Yeah, I there's so many different parallels that we could draw here, but if you have, I don't know, I'm not sure that, I don't subscribe to the idea that just because a group exists somewhere that they have in this universal right to autonomy.

no matter what. Especially if they're killing people who are just trying to say hello.

Mr. Borkavich (42:58.867)
Yeah, I think so that this is this is my this is my nuance take this is Johnny nuance here. I, I, I agree and disagree with you, Tay, because I think that if somebody showed up trying to build a McDonald's, and just like, spread some Western capitalist message, I think people would be just as upset, probably not as upset because the Western world, of course, has gripes with missionaries and their

Kim Jung Un (42:58.942)
Yeah.

Kim Jung Un (43:05.345)
Hit us, Johnny New Once.

Mr. Borkavich (43:28.257)
historical affiliation with colonialism. Like, I get that. I also think that they would like, but I think it's exactly what you're saying, Thomas. Like, there's this assumption that because these people exist, they have a right to live within full autonomy. But here's the, here is the double standard that I can't reconcile. So these people, because they're human beings, because they want to live privately,

because they wanna have this insulated culture, like they're so valuable because they're untouched by all the corruption of our Western world. like, it's like, there's, no, no, but here's the thing. They're so valuable that they can't be held accountable for murdering people. Like that's what's crazy. Like to me,

Theotokos Appreciator (44:08.248)
Yeah.

Kim Jung Un (44:10.051)
That's my point.

Mr. Borkavich (44:20.841)
I feel like it's very hard to defend this without resorting to the noble savage idea of like, they're animals. Like we can't expect them to know these Western ideals. Like don't kill man with arrow. How were they gonna understand that? It's like, no, dude, you're actually dehumanizing them by trying to protect them from any understanding of virtue. I think that's actually more insulting to them.

Theotokos Appreciator (44:36.974)
Mm-hmm.

Kim Jung Un (44:46.753)
will accept the nuance addition to my point, because I was basically like, you know, liberals hate us, so they don't want us spread. And you're like, OK, well, hi. I like your addition that, yeah, they do see them as this inherent inherently valuable thing for whatever reason, untouched by the stain of capitalism. I don't know the stain of Christianity.

Mr. Borkavich (45:06.569)
Mm-hmm.

Mr. Borkavich (45:12.724)
Right.

But my thing is like, what if, I mean like, okay, what if we found out, what if, okay, what if one person leaves and then we find out after years of them acclimating into a culture where they can actually communicate, they're like, yeah, this is a pretty bad place. Like they perform human sacrifice, they like brutally assault young women, like routinely, like.

this is a place where infants are murdered and like, you know, like all of a sudden we're like, gosh, this is the culture that we're protecting. Like we care so much about them that we're actually leaving them to destroy themselves. Like the idea that they're so civilized and so content without any other cultural influence, think is, yeah, I don't know. I think it's really, it's silly. I don't know. I don't know.

Kim Jung Un (46:09.795)
Yeah, there's no way to know. I mean, obviously they're not flourishing, right? Like, they use bows and arrows and...

Mr. Borkavich (46:18.719)
I mean, they're not developing. That's not a possibility without anything.

Kim Jung Un (46:22.019)
Right. Granted, they have only, four square miles to work with, but it's not like they have metal working or, you know, insert any sort of advancement in the last 1500 years of humanity. They don't have any of that. And I get it. I get that that's like not entirely their fault because they're so isolated. But I would not be surprised if they have very gross.

Mr. Borkavich (46:26.516)
Right, right.

Mr. Borkavich (46:35.375)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kim Jung Un (46:48.483)
practices. I don't think you're going to arrive and find like the doctrine of, you know, of sin doesn't doesn't allow me to think that a culture that hasn't had no influence of the gospel is this like pretty little perfect utopia untainted by the West.

Theotokos Appreciator (47:11.086)
I I'm trying to compare this to just other examples in history that I'm thinking of. It seems like in the long term, in the grand scheme, God doesn't allow civilizations, whether they're 200 people or 2 million, when they kind of just fall,

They fall in on themselves and collapse when they're devoid of God's light. And so he doesn't allow them to go on forever like that, which is actually a kindness. But it seems like the two ways that, two different ways that he can sometimes show grace is like, one can be through the like colonial work of a more developed nation coming and

in history we see that oftentimes bringing Christianity with it, in particular globally. I think it was the Jesuits who were going around with all the European nations that were when they were exploring all over the place and setting up outposts, they were bringing Jesuit priests with them who were spreading Christianity. And that's like the more kind of like strong armed way to do it, but it

has resulted in Christianity spreading in a lot of places. The other way is I'm thinking of like Patrick, know, like who kind of just goes into a pretty hostile environment, but he doesn't come with like the empire on his side, you know, he's just kind of doing his thing and he ends up converting Ireland just with the power of the gospel.

And like both are legitimate ways that God uses to convert some pretty dark cultures. obviously we like the version where the gospel goes in kind of like all on its own.

Mr. Borkavich (49:23.615)
I was gonna say, I'm gonna put some asterisks on both there, but I hear what you're coming from.

Kim Jung Un (49:27.415)
Well, well, Patrick's Patrick's much more I love that you brought him up because he's much more poetic and you know, he went back, right? Like he went back to spread the gospel and and then like his kind of equivalent in time on the mainland is Boniface who had like the full power of the Holy Roman Empire behind him as he went in and did his thing. So I get it. Albert Mueller actually commented.

Theotokos Appreciator (49:36.29)
Yeah, like he got out of there and then he went back.

Mr. Borkavich (49:38.74)
Yeah!

Kim Jung Un (49:55.968)
on this after the news broke. Yeah, he said on the briefing.

Mr. Borkavich (49:58.458)
really?

Kim Jung Un (50:04.767)
It is important for Christians to understand it is always right and never wrong to share the gospel with anyone, whether or not they are believed to be a part of either a reached or an unreached people group. But methodology is important here. And then he goes on to say, to put the matter bluntly, it is not the way most modern mission organizations would seek to reach this kind of group. That doesn't mean they wouldn't demonstrate the same kind of courage. And it doesn't mean that missionaries even today are not serving under threat of martyrdom and often facing the re-emphasis.

of martyrdom. So, MOLR is no one in the IMB and if you don't know what the IMB is, International Mission Board. It's the missions agency of the Southern Baptist Convention. It it's huge. mean, thousands and thousands of missionaries out and all over the world. They do not recommend Chow's strategy whatsoever.

Mr. Borkavich (51:00.735)
Yeah, yeah. I think, I think that is, and again, it's, it's, it's because I know so many dudes who I think under the right circumstances could have been in that freaking boat, like paddling right next to him. It's really hard for me to be like, your strategy was a little off there homeboy. But I mean, dude was in his twenties, like people have done reckless things with a lot more damage cost than trying to share the gospel with somebody.

Theotokos Appreciator (51:23.958)
Yeah. And I think we may have talked about this when we briefly mentioned his story before, but like this is the exact demographic of person that is right to do this type of work. Like a young, unmarried male who, is just got like nothing to lose. Like that is that like we need, we do need, young men who are willing to

Mr. Borkavich (51:38.997)
Mm-hmm.

Theotokos Appreciator (51:53.516)
go into places that are like extremely dangerous. Like I wouldn't, like I would be like super upset with any missions agency or church that would send like a young woman into this environment or like a couple or a family. Like there's something unique about his ability to just lay everything out. I mean the Apostle Paul talks about this like for those who are unmarried like they have a

unique opportunity to do gospel work unhindered as opposed to, you know, if you are married, which is a gift if you are, but if you are married, like, you have some responsibilities there. Like, if you're married, you can't just be like, all right, babe, I'm going to go, like, paddle on over to, like, North Sentinel Island, whether you like it not kind of thing.

you know, maybe those are decisions that could be made by a couple. I mean, I'm thinking of even like Jim Elliot, you know, but even then that wasn't quite the same situation. You know, that was a group of missionaries working together who were sent by an agency. They were doing careful work of trying to build relationships with that tribe. They had seen good signs. They communicated with them before and then things kind of like went haywire one day. So I think that

I think that there is a need for this type of like super dangerous work to be done sometimes. And I think it could be really hard to press that through a missions organization that's going to have certain protocols for safety and stuff like that. So it's definitely a sticky situation.

Mr. Borkavich (53:38.229)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kim Jung Un (53:40.548)
It's easy to, you know, say what he should have done, but realistically, most...

Most missionaries, I think, like even if a missions organization didn't want to endorse him, I think most people willing to do this like cutting edge, dangerous mission work would at least know, you go, what's the name of the island chain that they're a part of, John? Yeah, like you go to the Andamans, you set up home base there, you try to find anybody that could contact them and you sort of like build relationships that way.

Mr. Borkavich (54:03.796)
Andamans.

Kim Jung Un (54:15.713)
And you just sort of do feelers. That's like the why strategic way to go about it. I mean, even in Ethiopia, out of Addis Adaba, the group that we were with, they had missionaries out in the tribes. But even though they're Ethiopians, they weren't going out to the tribes themselves. If they would come out occasionally for preaching or training, but the tribes...

Mr. Borkavich (54:15.841)
Mm-hmm.

Kim Jung Un (54:44.149)
you have the tribesmen get converted and then go to their own people then that's that's and and like that's you know they're completely unaffiliated with like american missions so to speak so they landed on that strategy on their own

Mr. Borkavich (54:48.929)
Mm-hmm.

Mr. Borkavich (55:00.705)
Yeah, I've got a closing word. Maybe it doesn't have to be a closing word, but I've definitely got a word. This is another word for the critics. And maybe I'm fake-bolding right now because I think most of the folks listening are probably like, yeah, this is good. Here's my beef, though. Here's my beef. There was an incident like less than a year ago where

Kim Jung Un (55:16.163)
I

Mr. Borkavich (55:28.961)
another person was killed by arrow by one of these remote uncontacted tribes. And it was not a freaking missionary dude. It was a logger in the Amazon. Like there are legitimate threats to the wellbeing of these tribes all around the world. Brother, it's not Christian missionary dudes trying to share the love of Jesus. It's

freaking logging companies who are just trying to like show up and knock down a billion trees to like shovel into the capitalist machine. So I'm like, no, dude.

Kim Jung Un (56:02.563)
Right.

Mr. Borkavich (56:07.903)
The problem that's actually threatening these people is not someone trying to bring light to dark places. It's literally the people who are trying to exploit everything they have in terms of natural resources. So I'm like, dude, we're pointing the finger in the wrong way. That story got like no press whatsoever. But of course, John Chow's face is going to be plaster all over the world. Like, this is what's wrong with the West. Bro, get out of here. Get out of my face with that.

Kim Jung Un (56:25.667)
Mmmmm

Theotokos Appreciator (56:34.071)
Mhmm.

Kim Jung Un (56:34.435)
I know. And Portiaun Chow's like, I'd be content to live with them for the rest of my life. He's like a little 60 year old, you know, half Chinese guy wearing a loin cloth, where the Sentinelese people is his adoptee. He's got like grandkids, right? And they're like, yeah, that's messed up.

Mr. Borkavich (56:41.109)
Yeah.

Mr. Borkavich (56:51.777)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. So I don't know. It's.

Kim Jung Un (56:57.615)
I mean, OK, I've been very uncharitable to everybody except the Christians. I've been I've been pretty. So I will say this is my closing word. have two closing words, the first being we have to understand, as I mentioned, the doctrine of sin that.

Mr. Borkavich (57:04.544)
Okay.

Kim Jung Un (57:15.187)
even like the people that are lost commenting, they don't know they don't they're not they're dead in their sins. They don't they don't they don't get it and they can't get it at the moment. The people that are preventing contact they they're dead in their sins. They can't get it. They don't know but John Chow and this leads into my second closing comment. John Chow got it and I was trying to figure out

If my hypothesis is true, trying, couldn't figure out how to research it. But basically I think John Chow put them on the map. He put North Sentinel, Lise Island on the map. And now millions and millions and millions of people all over the world now know about them and can now pray for them. And I would not be surprised 10, 20 years from now, you know, contact gets made and maybe one day down the road.

There's a little statue for John Chow on that island who was the martyr that went to them.

Theotokos Appreciator (58:18.102)
I love that. That's good. I mean, we saw that with the, with the, I mean, that's kind of the, the amazing end of the story with in Ecuador was like the guy that actually killed Jim Elliot and Nate Saint like becomes a Christian later on, you know, and like is friends with, you know, the families of the men that they, that they killed and like,

Kim Jung Un (58:44.363)
Wow.

Theotokos Appreciator (58:47.724)
that I mean might even be living today. I've actually met the son of one of those missionaries that died and like he like knows those guys, you know, and like it's they're all they're like family.

Mr. Borkavich (58:53.631)
Wow.

Mr. Borkavich (58:59.189)
Yeah, yeah. I think what...

What is so cool to me about the people who serve in these like, you know, cause you're right, there is this war of values here where the Western mentality is like, give them autonomy, let them be, but at the same time, our understanding of letting them be is let them, know, hurl arrows and be violent.

And Christians are like, man, I just want to give them like abundant life that Jesus talks about. I just want to give them something everlasting. Like to me, I think it's much easier to love someone from a distance and say, yeah, let them do whatever they want. I don't care what they're doing. It's not interesting to me. It's not my world. I have no voice in this.

Kim Jung Un (59:43.831)
Right.

Mr. Borkavich (59:59.328)
And then to be able to be like, actually, no, I'm going to get into their world. I'm going to live with them, learn their culture and show them love and show them Jesus. Like, I just feel like it's so much more loving to actually care and to actually be there than to just be like, I love you so much that I'm completely indifferent and I want to maintain my indifference to your existence. Like.

Kim Jung Un (01:00:13.643)
Mm-hmm.

Kim Jung Un (01:00:21.931)
Right, and you'd think even from a secular perspective, you would at least be like, man, these people like die of, you know, a fishing spear slips and you like stab your leg and they die from that. That's not kindness. I don't know. Yeah. John, I think you did a really good job.

Mr. Borkavich (01:00:33.473)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mr. Borkavich (01:00:40.255)
Yeah, I'm here. I'm with you. I'm with you.

Mr. Borkavich (01:00:45.931)
Thanks man. Yeah, this was a fun episode. mean, I'm really glad we got to talk about this one because this, like I said, this was, I mean, it's like seven years late, but this was a really big talking point back in 2018. yeah, listeners, we'd love to know your thoughts as well. Drop them in the comments below. We'd love to keep the conversation going. yeah, thanks for listening, you guys.

Kim Jung Un (01:00:59.075)
That's right.

Kim Jung Un (01:01:08.863)
That's right! We got another episode to record. We're getting a tour done tonight.

Mr. Borkavich (01:01:14.763)
That's right, and you're gonna get this one next week. So make sure you leave some space in your stomach for another episode.

Kim Jung Un (01:01:23.171)
A turkey, perhaps.

Mr. Borkavich (01:01:25.537)
That's right, maybe a big tall brimmed hat, you know?

Kim Jung Un (01:01:30.047)
and maybe a feathered hat as well. Or sorry, not a feathered hat, a feather in your hair.

Mr. Borkavich (01:01:36.609)
It's like, why are the natives wearing like fedoras?

Kim Jung Un (01:01:39.811)
You

Theotokos Appreciator (01:01:40.546)
Ha ha ha!

Kim Jung Un (01:01:42.827)
say Indians? I don't know. It's the Pilgrims. The Pilgrims is next week.

Mr. Borkavich (01:01:46.431)
Alright.

Pilgums. Yeah. All right. Thanks gang

Kim Jung Un (01:01:51.425)
Happy Thanksgiving, Pilgrims!

Mr. Borkavich (01:01:53.858)
See ya.

Theotokos Appreciator (01:01:53.87)
God bless you.