106. Our Lady of Guadalupe: The Ghost of the Virgin Mary?

Bienvenidos, amigos. 

It's the 16th century. The Aztec Empire has recently fallen at the hands of the Spanish conquistadores. Colonialism is spreading throughout New Spain, and with it, a rise of the Spanish faith: Roman Catholicism. 

The Native population is apprehensive, as they deal with the social collapse of their civilization and the health crises of crippling diseases. Until one December morning, when a humble Aztec peasant is walking to Mass, and sees something that will change the course of Mexican history forever. 

Join us as we discuss Our Lady of Guadalupe, and share our (hopefully humble) Protestant takes. 

Also Taylor confesses that he doesn't know anything about technology, while John shares about how he's the best hospice chaplain in town. 

Buy us a coffee: https://buymeacoffee.com/chumphistory

Transcript

Sleepy Jay (00:00.59)
Hello guys and welcome to the of the church for idiots. name is John, the most handsome and I'm here with my friend.

SANTA KLAUS (00:03.39)
you

SANTA KLAUS (00:09.21)
Idiotas is like rude, bro.

Sleepy Jay (00:12.216)
Con mi compa, el caballero sin pelo, Taylor Treadway. How we doing everybody?

SANTA KLAUS (00:18.162)
Bienvenido a Church History for Chompas!

Sleepy Jay (00:20.814)
Idiotas is like, it's pretty mild, it's not like the worst, but it is idiots. Yeah, it's probably a good equivalent for chumps, I would say.

SANTA KLAUS (00:31.227)
Mexican friend told me it like idiotas like he's like that's kind of like it's almost a curse in Spanish

Sleepy Jay (00:37.73)
Yeah, shoot, wow, gonna get flagged. I still want us to be able to air in Saudi Arabia. There are a few other options. I also just like that church chump, iglesia idiota. Like, I like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Man, dude, I am so excited, but also in the worst way. So last week, you had this beautiful episode about Charles Spurgeon that just made all the Baptists that we love just...

SANTA KLAUS (00:43.793)
Yep, bro.

SANTA KLAUS (00:49.19)
Idiota. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sleepy Jay (01:06.156)
I think there was another, I forgot to show you this comment. We got a comment on Spotify the other day that was like, I would listen to 41 episodes about this, like just over the moon. And now I'm about to kill all of the Baptist excitement with the most Catholic topic I could possibly talk about. So I'm jazzed. I'm excited.

SANTA KLAUS (01:27.23)
dude, we got a lot of comments.

Sleepy Jay (01:29.486)
We did, we did. See something about Spurgeon just riles people up in the good way, you know, really, uh, Russell's Russell's some James's so yeah. All right. All right. I'll take my time. I'll take my time. Yeah. Yeah. Hit me.

SANTA KLAUS (01:34.993)
Yeah.

SANTA KLAUS (01:39.154)
Well, don't get into the episode yet. We got a pre-show banter to get through. All right, I have to say something. I have officially turned into the old angry guy at technology. So I work, I have two guys that work with me. Well, one girl, one guy. They're my little guys.

Sleepy Jay (01:55.486)
great. Okay, what's going on?

Sleepy Jay (02:02.935)
Okay.

SANTA KLAUS (02:03.803)
and they're like 24 and 22, okay? So I'm like, they're babies. They're my babies, but they're babies. Shout out Brianna and Ash. anyway, I was like, the iPhone updated and I'm like sitting at my desk yelling, I'm like, what is wrong with this stupid phone? And I can't even search my contacts. And Brianna comes over and she's like, let me see Taylor.

Sleepy Jay (02:30.496)
no.

SANTA KLAUS (02:32.515)
And she like changes the settings back for me and my like blood pressure goes down and I'm like that. Thank you.

Sleepy Jay (02:37.326)
That's amazing. Dude, you're never supposed to update this early. It's still full of bugs and stuff. That's the problem.

SANTA KLAUS (02:46.181)
It wasn't a bug, it was an operator error as much as I hate to admit it. Bro, she pressed one button and changed it back to the way so that I could search.

Sleepy Jay (02:50.2)
Well, that's tough.

Sleepy Jay (02:56.75)
See bro, here's the beautiful thing about being a hospice chaplain is that all the people that I work with are reasonably fairly old and sometimes they'll be having like an all out spiritual crisis because they can't get Netflix to work and they're just like, I don't know what to do. I, dude, it makes me feel so magical. There's a dude who I had a visit with last week and he's literally just like,

SANTA KLAUS (03:13.501)
Mmm. And you're like Saint John.

Yeah.

Sleepy Jay (03:26.382)
He's like, I can't leave my house. I can barely walk around. He's like, I'm dying. I feel awful. And I can't get this stupid Netflix to work. And I was like, hold on, hold on. I was like, I can't help with those other things. But did you say Netflix? And I, dude, five minutes, I had it running. He was literally like, God bless you so much, John. You are just helping me out. And I'm like...

SANTA KLAUS (03:36.654)
I just want to watch my stories.

Sleepy Jay (03:54.082)
This is the easiest way I've ever, I've ever blessed somebody.

SANTA KLAUS (03:55.858)
Rose, St. John, St. John Simon of Tucson freely distributing common grace.

Sleepy Jay (03:59.693)
Yeah, the patron saint of technical support. my gosh, dude. I love it. It's so, it's so great. I still, I mean, I've got all this practice from my parents, dude. Are your parents at the place to where like they're, they're starting to like lose the ability to keep up with tech stuff?

SANTA KLAUS (04:04.519)
That's my gosh. Yeah.

SANTA KLAUS (04:17.381)
No, absolutely not. My dad has a freaking smart house. He's like, it's like bedtime and he's like, hey Google, turn off the blah, blah, blah. Turn on the blah, blah, set to this. And then Google's like, okay, David. And then the house like, pew.

Sleepy Jay (04:20.526)
Sleepy Jay (04:31.704)
Yeah.

Sleepy Jay (04:35.63)
Did he like install it himself too? my gosh. Yeah, dude

SANTA KLAUS (04:37.691)
Yes! And his hobbies are like drone flying with his cameras and like using his phone apps to look at like constellations in the sky.

Sleepy Jay (04:47.17)
You're like the only dude calling up your dad to be like, hey dad, could you help me with this iPhone update? Like I'm really struggling. tough, tough, tough, tough. Speaking of hating iPhones, we need to clarify since this is the second episode without Thomas, he didn't really leave the show. He's just a busy body and we haven't seen him. Yeah. I think he's in Advent Service right now. We should be at Advent Services too, probably.

SANTA KLAUS (04:52.893)
That's a dude. No, he won't. He hates iPhone. huh. So.

SANTA KLAUS (05:09.053)
Yeah, it's Christmas time. See, I don't know. I already had Advent service. Truth be told, dude, I should pull a Tommy and possibly skip an episode or two. I don't remember the last time I've slept eight hours.

Sleepy Jay (05:18.143)
yeah, me too.

Sleepy Jay (05:25.782)
Yeah.

Sleepy Jay (05:29.9)
You act like it's taking paid time off. Like, I've done every episode. Like, I don't just take off. I don't just take time off. Talk about practice? No, I know you do.

SANTA KLAUS (05:34.918)
I Yeah, john, I know this. That's why I'm here. I believe but I'm just I dude honestly and to all the listeners if you're like maybe I should go to seminary. I think you should but just don't go full time and work full time and also work at church and also have a podcast and a wife.

Sleepy Jay (05:59.595)
Mmm, and a kid. I mean you don't have a kid, but I know people that that have done all those things with kids and Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm just glad dude. I got I got my seminary done when I was like single I was like bumming some bedroom off a buddy of mine I was I had an awful nicotine habit like I was the worst version of myself going to seminary It was amazing. That was the best the best thing that could have happened

SANTA KLAUS (06:01.533)
We don't... Right. it's just...

SANTA KLAUS (06:27.931)
You know, I have this this this theory that you know how like back in that day, like your parents would ship you off to Oxford at like 16 and you would just like freeze to death and starve but you were like studying Latin with the most brilliant minds at the time. You know, you come back a genius is really what it is. So I'm like, I'm like thinking should the Lord bless me and Brandy with children. I'm like

Sleepy Jay (06:34.574)
Mm-hmm.

Sleepy Jay (06:43.084)
Yeah.

Sleepy Jay (06:46.626)
and you'd come back a proper gentleman.

SANTA KLAUS (06:57.597)
When I have them at 16, I'm going to have them ready. They're going to know Greek and Latin. And I'm going to ship them off to Oxford and I'm going to tell them, don't let them stay in the dorms. Keep them in the old dungeons. It's It's good for them. Don't give them too thick a blanket. We're going to replicate the past here.

Sleepy Jay (07:02.84)
Dude, yeah.

Sleepy Jay (07:10.638)
Keep him underground.

Sleepy Jay (07:16.662)
Right, right, yeah. We can do so much damage with our children, man. That's really what Soulcare is all about, and you're just kind of using that against them right now. You're like, I'm gonna damage you positively. Man.

SANTA KLAUS (07:29.565)
I know. Well, I do think so. Like in a serious note, I think there is a strength. If you are a young listener, we have some young listeners and we appreciate you guys really consider when you want to do your education. And the answer is not in your 30s.

Sleepy Jay (07:43.256)
Sure.

Sleepy Jay (07:46.958)
Yeah, yeah, you should be doing all your stuff before. I mean, I'd say get it done. Here's the thing, any important thing, you should do it in your 20s. Marriage, 20s. Kids, 20s. Career, education, all those in your 20s. 30s is when you're trying to figure out how to not jump off a cliff. But the 20s... That may also be your 20s, honestly, if you're...

SANTA KLAUS (08:06.621)
my gosh. 30s is when you fight your suicidal thoughts.

Sleepy Jay (08:15.331)
if your name is John Simon. But you know, hey, we all got our own battles, you know.

SANTA KLAUS (08:18.683)
Yeah, go to school, slam it out, become a genius, and then start your life. Yeah, don't play Dungeon and Dragons with John Simon every Sunday night for eight hours and then wake up groggy for the whole week.

Sleepy Jay (08:22.667)
Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, you know...

Sleepy Jay (08:31.501)
Honestly no, you should do that too, because you can't do it in your 30s. You can't do that in your 30s. No. Sometimes you need to do something that only an energetic dumb 20 year old will do. Like play Dungeons and Dragons for like 4 hours a week while smoking a lot of hookah. Which I did by myself.

SANTA KLAUS (08:33.373)
absolutely not

SANTA KLAUS (08:46.813)
Dude, you cut the time back, we would show up at your house at like four or five o'clock and not leave until midnight. Yeah, yeah.

Sleepy Jay (08:54.765)
Yeah, Sessions wouldn't end until 10 at the earliest and it would always go over. Well, let's do this. I've got, I'm really excited about this episode. Now I'm going to tell the listeners why. Now I know we still have a lot of local listeners from,

SANTA KLAUS (08:59.466)
it's a bit. Yeah, always so.

Sleepy Jay (09:18.873)
is the loudest? Your fan is at full force right now, brother. Dude, I thought a tornado was sweeping through your living room. I'm sorry. I'm trying to help you. I'm trying. So listen, we have local listeners. So we're talking about, I'm sure you've already read the title. It's Our Lady of Guadalupe. It's a very interesting story. And again, for all the people who were like, I thought this was a Baptist show. First of all, no, it's not. Okay. It's a Christian show.

SANTA KLAUS (09:21.818)
Why you take my fan away? The fan is off. The fan is off. Yeah, we have local listeners from Tucson.

SANTA KLAUS (09:48.126)
hosted by hosted by two Baptists and a Presbyterian. No

Sleepy Jay (09:48.463)
Which means we are neither Baptist nor Catholic nor whatever Thomas is

Actually, no, I'm a Presbyterian. Thank you. I just don't go to a Presbyterian church, but that's okay. I do them all the time. I wear flannel. I have a tattoo. I live my life, bro. I live my life. I drink beer and sometimes whiskey and I pretend that I like it. So if you're thinking, why are we doing this Catholic thing? Are we all Catholic? All of a sudden I hate Catholics. Just zip it.

SANTA KLAUS (10:01.561)
or do Presbyterian things.

Sleepy Jay (10:23.085)
listener with all love and respect zip it because there's we're going to explore there's a wide breadth of dialogue to get through this is an interesting topic

SANTA KLAUS (10:31.857)
Why did you over pronounce the D in that word?

Sleepy Jay (10:36.299)
so that they didn't think I said breath. The bread thing. I do say that word kind of weird. All right, all right, cold open time before I get nitpicked by Taylor again. All right, here we go. What if you saw something today, dear listener? Something spectacularly supernatural that you couldn't explain away with science, reason, intuition.

SANTA KLAUS (10:38.493)
Mmm. Mmm. The bread did.

Sleepy Jay (11:04.783)
I'll add even more heat to the question. I'll put a little bit more dip on the chip, if you would. What if the thing that you saw had tremendous religious weight? What if you saw something that affirmed your religious views? What if you saw something that challenged your religious views? You see, we don't like to believe in seeing things these days. We scoff at UFO stories and Bigfoot sightings as just things hillbillies do.

Many of us as Christians believe in what we believe in because we believe it's right and because we believe it is sound and reasonable and smart. But I ask you again, dear listener, what if you saw something today?

This is the beginning. So it's a crisp morning in December 1531. The newly christened colony known as New Spain has just recently sealed its victory over the indigenous communities present. This is, you know, if you're familiar with the Conquistador era, the Hernan Cortes era.

This is right after all of that started. The big ships and the big tough guys from Spain have come to the new land, this Aztec territory, with lots of other tribes as well, to be clear.

SANTA KLAUS (12:28.655)
Is this before or after the cursed chest of gold is lost?

Sleepy Jay (12:35.087)
Probably before, I don't know. What we know of today as Mexico City is being built over the ruins of Tenochtitlan, which was the former capital of the Aztec Empire. Because the Spanish destroyed it. Yeah, yeah, we'll get to that. Maybe, we'll see. A native man in his 50s...

SANTA KLAUS (12:36.986)
okay.

SANTA KLAUS (12:49.671)
Why was it in ruins?

SANTA KLAUS (12:54.553)
Whaaaat?

SANTA KLAUS (12:58.663)
you

Sleepy Jay (13:03.021)
recently baptized into the Catholic faith is on his way walking to mass. His name is

But soon he will be renamed to the much more English speaking friendly Juan Diego. As Juan Diego is walking to mass, he suddenly hears this sound of strangely beautiful music playing. He diverts from the path to investigate. Suddenly he sees this young woman standing right before him.

He's immediately struck both by her beauty, but also this sensation of supernatural awe. She speaks to him in his native Nahuatl language, sharing that she is the Virgin Mary, mother of God. She tells him, go back to your community, talk to your bishop and tell him to build a church for me here. And so the guy goes back.

goes to his church, asks for a visit with his bishop and his bishop is like, dude, you're some peasant. I don't care what you're saying. Don't get out of my office. Get out of my office. That's translation. Thank you. So Juan Diego returns to the foot of the hill, Temeyak Hill, where he saw the Virgin and he sees her waiting for him again. And he's like, well, the bishop didn't believe me.

SANTA KLAUS (14:15.291)
Thank you. Wow.

Sleepy Jay (14:27.663)
This feels like I'm setting up a joke. like, this, the setup is like I'm working towards a punchline, which I hate. Hold on, hold on, chill out. She insists, she says, go back to the bishop, tell him that I said, build me a church. And he's like, all right, I'll go back. The bishop hears him out again and is like, look, I'm a little bit more convinced because you saw this a second time, but I'm still very suspicious.

SANTA KLAUS (14:30.782)
I know the punchline is paganism

Sleepy Jay (14:56.897)
If this is truly an appearance of the Virgin Mary, then ask her for a sign. so Juan Diego goes back and he's like, crap, now I have to ask potentially the Virgin Mary, this very important figure in my religion who is appearing to me for a sign now. That feels a little not great. So he leaves, but before he can return to the hill, he finds out that his uncle is dying. So he diverts his plans. He's like, no, I gotta take care of my uncle. he...

goes to him, he's tending to his dying relative, and he's got this really high fever, he's declining fast, and soon after a couple days of tending to him, he realizes, my uncle's gonna die soon, and I need to find a priest so that my uncle can make a dying confession, so that he can be forgiven and go to heaven and everything, all the stuff that Catholics believe. And so on the road, as he's looking for a priest,

Juan Diego encounters the Virgin again for the third time. And she says, and he says, look, I talked to the Bishop. She said, he said that, he said that I need to bring a sign. And so the Virgin says, okay, well, if you need a sign, go to the top of the hill where I met you for the first time and gather a bundle of roses. And then you can bring those to your Bishop. And Juan Diego's like, man, it's like the middle of December.

Roses are way out of season. I'm not going to find anything here. It's the dead of winter. But nevertheless, he goes to the hill, ascends to the top, and he finds a bundle of roses. he has, Aztecs would wear this outer cloak called, I think it's a tilmatli, which he wraps the roses up in and he carries them down to the bishop. And when he sees the bishop, he opens up his cloak to reveal all the roses.

And suddenly they see inside the cloak this imprinted image of the Virgin where her head is bowed, hands folded in prayer. if you have, listener, the faintest recollection of our Virgin of Guadalupe, which the reason I mentioned Tucson earlier is because Tucson is a very Mexican city, a very Catholic city, and Mexican Catholics love them some Our Lady of Guadalupe.

Sleepy Jay (17:20.868)
This is like the traditional visual of head bowed, hands folded. She has the blue cloak. She has the radiant aura around her. She's standing on a cloud. She has a little angel underneath her. That is the image that was imprinted on there. And so the bishop is like, my gosh, this is a thousand percent a miracle. This was the Virgin and they...

and they build the shrine, the church to her. And the Virgin will make one final appearance. She will show up to Juan Diego's sick uncle and she will heal him of his sickness and say, tell your friends that I am Santa Maria de Guadalupe, which is Holy Mary of Guadalupe. And this was her final appearance. although it was the last time that she was there, her...

Presence on the imprint of Juan Diego's cloak is still to this day on display at the Basilica of Guadalupe in Mexico City. You can see it. I've seen it with my own eyes. And their claim to fame is like it's never faded. It's like the Shroud of Turin. It's like this is some supernaturally protected...

piece of like like article of clothing you know the the colors never faded it's never chipped away it's just as bold as when it was when it miraculously appeared for the first time so yeah interesting stuff

SANTA KLAUS (18:58.109)
I, you know, and I'm sure most of my listeners, our listeners, is that the communist bugs bunny meme? Our listeners, you haven't seen that meme? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So our reaction to this is how atheists feel when we're like, let me tell you the gospel.

Sleepy Jay (19:05.603)
our listeners.

What is that? Hour, hit the hour. Yes, yes.

Sleepy Jay (19:19.791)
Mm-hmm.

Sleepy Jay (19:24.688)
Let me tell you about a man who rose up from the dead. Yeah, it is a hundred percent true.

SANTA KLAUS (19:29.477)
Yeah, yeah. Can you hear the children partying in the courtyard?

Sleepy Jay (19:37.326)
just a little bit, but I'm not, I'm not faced by it. I love, I love the sound of children. I'm not.

SANTA KLAUS (19:38.941)
Well, you took away my fans, so I have to have the windows open at least. Right. John Simon loves the little children. All the children of the world.

Sleepy Jay (19:46.733)
Nope, nope. It's not right. That's another thing I wanted to say here. We do have, so a lot of these, I'll kind of get into, I'll zoom out of this picture a little bit. There is a quote that I wanted to read because all of these appearances, people tends to write down what they think the Virgin Mary is telling them. And here's a quote that,

that the apparition made to Juan Diego, and far, the master of heaven and earth. It is my earnest wish that a temple be built here to my honor. Here I will demonstrate, I will exhibit, will give all my love, my compassion, my help, and my protection to the people.

I am your merciful mother, the merciful mother of all of you who live united in this land and of all mankind, of all those who love me, of those who cry to me, of those who seek me, of those who have confidence in me. Here I will hear their weeping, their sorrow and will remedy and alleviate all their multiple sufferings, necessities and misfortunes." And to this very day, the site of Our Lady of Guadalupe is the most visited Catholic pilgrimage location in

the world.

SANTA KLAUS (21:10.352)
I just struggle so much with this. first off, if you guys are Facebook friends with Tommy or John or myself, you would have seen Tommy's post where Tommy posted his sub stack link and he was kind of talking about how it's okay for Protestants to celebrate Mary because there is something special.

Sleepy Jay (21:15.236)
Yeah.

Sleepy Jay (21:23.024)
Uh-huh.

Sleepy Jay (21:35.642)
Mm-hmm.

SANTA KLAUS (21:39.94)
about being the Theotokos, you know, literally, one human can claim that they gave birth to God. And it's her. So that being said, and I came in and agreed, and then you came in and said, like a paragraph of nothing, which was actually impressive. Yeah, it was actually. I know I, I know, I know the fact that you said

Sleepy Jay (21:42.448)
Mm-hmm.

Sleepy Jay (22:00.817)
Thank you. It was an intentional troll, okay? I wasn't just dumb.

SANTA KLAUS (22:08.902)
It's worth looking at if you follow Tommy on Facebook. Guys, it's worth going and reading John's art. Now, that being said, this is like so far down the spectrum. If most Protestants, like in the anti-Catholic, anti-papist tradition, which is a lot of us, they hear Mary they're like, nope, just a regular girl. Nothing special about her, move on.

Sleepy Jay (22:24.133)
Yeah.

SANTA KLAUS (22:35.602)
And then there's like us that are like, well, hold on, let's think about this theologically. And then there's people that are like, I just saw her and we're to make a church for her because that's what this is all about. Also, also she said she was perfect.

Sleepy Jay (22:50.875)
Yeah, dude, you're saying a lot of things and I think everything I agree with, which is why I feel so nuanced about this. Because it's just, I don't know, like I don't think I could ever make that long steady jump into Catholicism, even though I find myself more fascinated with Catholic history, theology, with the writings of Catholic authors. I just love their stuff.

I think you're absolutely right, like this feels like... It feels like an understanding of Mary that someone in the first few centuries of the church would have been like, wait, what? Like, showed up and called herself the comforter of everyone's sorrows and she's the mother of everybody, like, hold on, isn't that a little, like, that's strange?

SANTA KLAUS (23:33.446)
Yeah. Yeah.

SANTA KLAUS (23:45.082)
So, okay, and I might get in trouble for what I'm about to say. I don't know if her claiming to be our mother is the worst thing that she said. Because if Christ is our brother, what does that make Mary?

Sleepy Jay (23:50.149)
Go for it.

Sleepy Jay (23:55.366)
Mm-hmm.

Sleepy Jay (23:58.7)
well, okay, yeah, say it.

Mm-hmm.

Sleepy Jay (24:07.375)
Yeah, yeah, I mean, and Catholics will point to Jesus on the cross telling what disciple was it to take care of his mother, right? Like to honor my mother as your mother, basically. They'll quote that a lot as saying like, well, this is what it means to honor Mary as our mother. So yeah, I agree with you there. A lot of commentary we can get into here. I do want to dive into a little bit more history first.

SANTA KLAUS (24:21.92)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SANTA KLAUS (24:36.306)
Yeah, hit us.

Sleepy Jay (24:36.769)
This one I just found fascinating. So a great question that might be buzzing in your head right now is where does the name Guadalupe come from? Because she wasn't, this didn't happen at some place called Guadalupe. So why did she ask her, why did she ask to be called that? Well, some believe that

It was like a reference to another shrine that also was in Spain at this time called Our Lady of Guadalupe, which just looks really bad. That just feels like a super unnecessary connection. Like it'd be like if, if, if, if the U S had just colonized, like, I don't know, Italy, and then there was an appearance of the Virgin Mary and she called her, she's like, call me our lady of

Boston. It's like, okay, this looks fake. But some people have suggested, and I find this really interesting, that Guadalupe was a transliteration from a Nahuatl word into Spanish that means the one who crushes the serpent. So if that was the case, then that would have this interesting double meaning because for one, it would be a reference to Genesis 3.

SANTA KLAUS (25:26.408)
Hmm.

Sleepy Jay (25:54.256)
where there's the proto-evangelion, the proto-gospel, which is the prediction that one of the sons of Eve would crush the head of the serpent. But there's also a reference to Quetzalcoatl, who was the supreme creator god of the Aztec pantheon, who was a feathered serpent and who demanded human sacrifice from his worshippers.

SANTA KLAUS (26:04.668)
Yeah.

Sleepy Jay (26:21.729)
If Mary is presenting herself as the one who crushes the serpent, that is both a connection to her role in Christ, but also to her kind of stomping on the, you know, these, these false pagan gods. which is interesting, but once again, kind of raises up red flags for me because I'm like, why is Mary, why is Mary tackling a pagan deity?

And why is Mary the one who crushes the serpent's head? Like that's, that's Jesus's role, right?

SANTA KLAUS (26:53.926)
Yeah, I mean, dude, okay. This was if this happened. If. Si. In Spanish. Yeah, si pasa. It doesn't make sense.

Sleepy Jay (27:01.553)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, Si pasa.

Sleepy Jay (27:14.385)
Mm-hmm.

SANTA KLAUS (27:15.75)
Yeah, I don't know, man. Catholicism in Mexico has been cooked since the beginning.

Sleepy Jay (27:17.595)
There's interesting stuff here.

Sleepy Jay (27:24.559)
See, and this is where... and I... this... see, you and I, we... I still live in Tucson. You lived in Tucson for a long time, so you know. If you talk to Christians in Tucson, or really anywhere in the Southwest, they either are very, very affectionate towards Catholicism, which means they really love the Virgin of Guadalupe. And I mean, like, dude, you can't go to the swap meet, you can't go to a flea market, you can't go...

to certain neighborhoods without seeing banners of Our Lady of Guadalupe all over the place. is a cultural icon for Mexican Catholicism. big time, big time. But on the flip side, so my wife, whose family, her parents were raised very Catholic, and then they basically left the Catholic faith and now they're Protestant. They are like...

SANTA KLAUS (28:02.684)
Yes, there's and they're like tattoos as well. Yeah.

SANTA KLAUS (28:16.959)
they're Protestant.

Ohhhh

Sleepy Jay (28:22.202)
Like I remember when my wife and I went to Mexico City, we did go to the Basilica of the Virgin, really just as tourists, not as worshipers. They did, they did. And I was like, Salome, have you heard the story? She's like, of course I've heard the stories, mijo. She's like, it's fake, none of it happened. It's not real. Like she's just like very like, you know, this was something.

SANTA KLAUS (28:30.312)
Were they like, why would you go there?

SANTA KLAUS (28:45.01)
Dang.

Sleepy Jay (28:49.552)
This was a lie that was told to manipulate the native population to get them to convert to Catholicism. was an instrument of imperial power. It was not a real thing.

SANTA KLAUS (28:56.006)
Yes.

That's right. Dude, I think I've told this story before, but it goes worth repeating. doing youth ministry in Tucson was very interesting, and I tried to do a full ecclesiastical education on the children. dude, whenever we would cover Catholicism, I would have, I had a very mixed youth group.

Sleepy Jay (29:05.586)
Mm-hmm.

Sleepy Jay (29:15.686)
Mm-hmm.

SANTA KLAUS (29:23.066)
like all races, all tribes and tongues and all bro all yeah you saw my youth group all my all my mexican kids were like hissing at the catholic stuff and i would be they would be like yeah the catholics are the worst and i'm like where is this coming from and then i i would do more some investigation and i realized it's because their parents have the same story as annie's parents

Sleepy Jay (29:29.285)
I did, yeah.

Sleepy Jay (29:35.676)
Mm-hmm.

Sleepy Jay (29:43.396)
Mm-hmm.

Sleepy Jay (29:49.892)
Absolutely, yeah.

SANTA KLAUS (29:50.294)
And and the thing is, the thing is, is when you leave the Catholic Church, your Mexican family takes it super personal.

Sleepy Jay (29:59.123)
Dude, being a Mexican Catholic is like being a Mormon from Utah. Like, you're so close to the core that if you talk to a Mexican who's not Catholic, they usually have a pretty good reason for it and they have a story. Just like if you talk to somebody named Brandon who is like living in Salt Lake but not a Mormon, they're like, let me tell you a little something about the LDS. Yeah.

SANTA KLAUS (30:23.472)
Right, they hate, yeah, they don't like them. Hate even might be the right word. You know, and I saw that in Ethiopia with the Protestants I talked to. Getting a fair read. I remember, I told you guys about Dr. G. So Dr. G was about the only one that I could talk to who would give me like a fair sum, of the Orthodox Church.

Sleepy Jay (30:27.632)
Yeah, I think it is.

Sleepy Jay (30:34.13)
Mm-hmm.

Sleepy Jay (30:39.676)
Yeah.

SANTA KLAUS (30:49.279)
Every other Protestant was basically like I was saved out of that hellscape

Sleepy Jay (30:53.98)
Yeah, that's it. That dude, and it's so, it's so interesting. And so, so here a little bit more background just for people who are like, give me some more. So what is this thing that's happening here? What is this idea of the ghost of the Virgin Mary appearing to talk to people and asking them to build stuff? Well, this is something called a Marian apparition and it happens all the time.

Has been I think officially confirmed maybe a couple dozen times. I think I saw a number that was like 16 I think I counted like 20 but this is how I've read it defined so it is Let's see Nicholas LaBanca Catholic author says that our lady wants nothing more than to lead us to her son This is why she is such a powerful intercessor Let's reflect on these words of our lady and see how we can incorporate the request she makes in our own lives

Most importantly, let's continue to pray for the conversion of souls and the entire world. So they basically see like whenever the Virgin appears, it's always this arrow pointing to Jesus. It's always this kind of moment of reckoning for the church. Oftentimes,

It'll be nations that have gone through traumatic wars and the Virgin would appear as like a consoling presence. Sometimes the Virgin would come to basically be like, you guys need to repent of this sin or like judgment is coming over you. So they're very interesting. They've happened all over the world.

SANTA KLAUS (32:33.083)
Yeah, you hear that and it softens your heart. It softens. Gosh, OK, this is what you were. I was trying to vibe you out or catch your vibes and I get it. I get. No, you can't. I get it.

Sleepy Jay (32:36.688)
Yeah, look, I'm just saying, man, it's.

Sleepy Jay (32:44.55)
This is what you can't can't pin me down dog.

Alright, but here, listen, hear me out. Like I said, my view of this is so nuanced because I'm still just, I'm more fascinated than I am feeling like I need to pick a side. One thing I love, and I love it based on the idea, not because I completely buy into it, but the Marian apparitions are always very, and I-

Actually, I was going to use the word incarnational, but I hate that I almost said that because that would be blasphemous because only Jesus is incarnational. I know I caught myself, but she like it was not a coincidence that when she spoke to Juan Diego, she spoke in his native tongue. Whenever the Virgin appears in these Marian apparitions, at least according to the Catholic Church, of course.

SANTA KLAUS (33:18.984)
Dude, you are getting real close.

Sleepy Jay (33:42.2)
It's not just within the language of those people. She often appears in the physical presence of the people as well. So there's a Marian apparition that happened in Japan, Our Lady of Nikita, and she appeared as a Japanese woman, which is interesting. Like I said, I'm not saying it's good or bad. I'm just saying it's interesting. Catholics have

procedure, weirdly you can read like a PDF of this procedure online. It's like three pages long and it's got a pretty solid like metric for what they do. But essentially they'll it's asking questions like, did, did, the Bishop believe this, when they, when they shared it.

How thoroughly was this investigated? How reliable was the person who reported it? How righteous is the person who reported it? Were they a Catholic in good standing of the church? Were there any miracles associated with this thing that happened? My favorite, does the reported witness of the apparition have any psychological disorders? Because they're basically like, this dude might be crazy. Like maybe they're a really good Catholic who's also got, you know, And maybe we need to take that into consideration.

One that we'll get back to, did the apparition say anything unbiblical or opposed to solid doctrine? Because sometimes we'll find that the answer is yes, and that's really disconcerting when that happens. But so many of the... go ahead, go ahead.

SANTA KLAUS (35:17.958)
I was gonna say, I had a Marian apparition where she said the sacramental system was wrong.

Sleepy Jay (35:24.433)
She's like, I'm just here to tell you guys you're putting way too much stock in me and they're like, false.

SANTA KLAUS (35:29.788)
Yeah, she actually said something about, and I didn't understand her Bishop, she said something about five solas. I don't know what that means.

Sleepy Jay (35:38.097)
You

So good. man. Usually whenever a Marian apparition is confirmed, there's a church built on the location. It becomes a significant place of pilgrimage for Catholics all over the world. And oftentimes again, yeah, they'll associate these apparitions with miracles and with widespread conversions. Other known Marian apparitions are

Our Lady of Fatima in Portugal, Our Lady of Lourdes in France, Our Lady of Kiberho in Rwanda, the Coptic Orthodox Church has several Marian apparitions, like Our Lady of Zetoun, which happened in Egypt. Now here's the crazy thing about some of these. Some of these have happened within the last few decades. Like if you look up like photographs of Marian apparitions, you'll see some.

And most of them are pretty awful, like they're not good pictures, but there are Marian apparitions that have happened within the past few decades that have thousands of witnesses.

SANTA KLAUS (36:48.754)
So when you say like the French lady, so she would have appeared as French, she's from France. So she like rail thin smoking.

Sleepy Jay (36:56.048)
Yeah.

Sleepy Jay (37:01.618)
croissants in one hand.

SANTA KLAUS (37:02.832)
Yeah. You muscle-repeats! She's like rude.

SANTA KLAUS (37:12.734)
And then the Egyptian one is like, he's okay. You are okay. He's okay.

Sleepy Jay (37:13.314)
my gosh.

Sleepy Jay (37:17.798)
Habibi listen, habibi. Sometimes we need a shwarma and you okay. It's okay, it's all right.

SANTA KLAUS (37:22.814)
We are either blaspheming or...

Sleepy Jay (37:25.778)
Just being racist or anti-french? All of them. I love it. Yeah, so I don't know man. It's an interesting thing. Like I said, I do want to curb my very post-enlightenment, there you go Mr. Treadway, my very scientific method brain that's like...

SANTA KLAUS (37:29.542)
All of them.

SANTA KLAUS (37:44.799)
Hahaha!

Sleepy Jay (37:49.873)
Nope, all this stuff is dumb, all this stuff is wrong, nothing supernatural happens anymore. And I wanna be like, no, sometimes things are happening. I'll say this, I watched a really fascinating video that I would encourage all of you guys to watch. It's on YouTube, Gavin Ortland. He did a video on the Protestant perspective of Marian apparitions. And he was basically like...

SANTA KLAUS (37:54.728)
That's right.

Sleepy Jay (38:16.636)
Like he apparently did a deep dive of the apparition that happened in Zetune, the Egyptian one, and he was like, yeah, honestly, I can't say this didn't happen. I think this might've happened. This looks like it was probably supernatural. That scares the heck out of me. Not because I think that it was Mary, but because if it was supernatural and it was evil, then that would be terrifying. Yeah.

SANTA KLAUS (38:29.277)
Don't.

SANTA KLAUS (38:33.544)
but because Gavin Nortland said it.

I thought you were gonna say because Gavin Ortland's like it probably happened.

Sleepy Jay (38:43.212)
No, no, he was very, very nuanced as well. And he was like, look, I think he's like, we don't know. We have every right to be discerning. And he said something that I thought was really solid. He was like, dude, there's 16 confirmed Marian apparitions. There are tens of thousands of rejected apparition stories. And dude, there are stories where like the Virgin would appear to someone and then tell them to read a book from the occult.

SANTA KLAUS (39:11.486)
Mmm.

Sleepy Jay (39:11.59)
Like stuff like that would happen, which is like, that's not funny. That's like scary stuff where like the virgin is appearing and telling you to do demonic stuff.

SANTA KLAUS (39:21.228)
I haven't made that accusation yet.

keyword yet. You beat me to it, I guess. So when you told the original story of Our Lady of Guadalupe, I was immediately reminded of like Islam. We have no issue being like, yeah, Mohammed talked to a demon. Like we all know he probably talked to something.

Sleepy Jay (39:26.706)
Yeah

Sleepy Jay (39:32.625)
Mm-hmm.

Sleepy Jay (39:39.484)
Hmm, okay.

Sleepy Jay (39:44.497)
Mm-hmm.

Sleepy Jay (39:47.91)
Yeah, I don't think he wrote, he just lied about it. Yeah. I mean, I think the same with Joseph Smith, right? Yeah.

SANTA KLAUS (39:51.196)
Yeah. Exactly. So, you know, I feel like that Catholic theologian guy you quoted, I feel like his heart was in the right spot, but I feel like he's having to like reinterpret what was recorded as being said to try to make it work.

Sleepy Jay (40:01.778)
Mm-hmm.

Sleepy Jay (40:10.994)
Sure, yeah.

Sleepy Jay (40:14.994)
I think that looking at the fruit is most important when it comes to this. And I think one thing that Gavin Ortland said that was really, really good was the dark shadow for us as Protestants, especially, but the dark shadow hanging over all of these stories is that they're always putting Mary at the center stage and they're always, yeah, they're always fixing a lot of attention on her.

SANTA KLAUS (40:38.3)
That's right.

Sleepy Jay (40:44.874)
And I know that, you know, if you ask a theologian about a Marian apparition, he would say, it's all about pointing to Christ. It's all about Christ. But if you ask a lot of people who are in Mexico and Catholic, they're going to be like, dude, I love the lady of Guadalupe. I love her more than Jesus sometimes. I don't know if they would say that, but the affection feels mixed up.

SANTA KLAUS (41:04.232)
Well, they now they certainly pray to her more than Jesus

Sleepy Jay (41:09.074)
Yeah, yeah. So that gets a little sketchy. when there are these stories that are followed by like miracles and then a lot of people converting to like the faith, it's hard to out and out dispute that. Like I feel like I'm more comfortable saying maybe there's some dark stuff happening when it's very clear that...

Yeah, that it's producing dark fruit. I guess I'm just careful to generalize, but I don't know.

SANTA KLAUS (41:43.038)
I think though, like, if you think about it from a high level and you try to give as much benefit of the doubt as possible with discernment, you're like, well, I can see how somebody who is, believes in the intercession of saints that are alive in heaven right now. I'm like, okay, I'm tracking.

Sleepy Jay (41:52.082)
Mm-hmm.

Sleepy Jay (42:07.207)
Mm-hmm.

SANTA KLAUS (42:10.482)
You know, and then, and then it's like, well, why wouldn't it would make sense that Mary, who is like, you know, got a high honor among humans, it would make sense if Mary was one of the saints that did a lot of intercessory work coming down saying, Hey,

Sleepy Jay (42:29.519)
Right, right.

SANTA KLAUS (42:33.062)
You better watch out or hey. Yeah, well, that's the thing. She never says that in these app. Well, maybe not never. At least the one you shared. don't. But I'm willing to play ball if the supernatural activities are always like, well, like Christ centered.

Sleepy Jay (42:34.823)
Don't forget about Jesus, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Sleepy Jay (42:50.981)
Right, right. And I think, yeah, that would be the hope because Gavin pointed out a few where just the way that these versions of Mary speaks about herself is very like, you know, I am the one who comforts the world. Or like there was one where she's like, well, I am the one who turns away the wrath of God. And it's like, whoa, dude, like this is, you're really...

You're putting on some Jesus, you're wearing Jesus's slippers right now, bro. Like that's a little weird.

SANTA KLAUS (43:24.06)
Yeah, well, that's what makes me think it's like demonic. Because it's like how close it's like you saw you already said the Mormons or Muslims as we said, how close can you make the lie to the truth? And when we Yeah.

Sleepy Jay (43:28.079)
Right, right.

Sleepy Jay (43:37.125)
Right. And it's so interesting because like, does Mexico have a very rich Catholic presence and history that wouldn't exist, may not exist, without this story? Yes, but I've also spoken to a lot of missionaries in Mexico who would say that like, there's definitely some deviation between the worship of certain saints and figures.

Guadalupe being the highest and like an actual good Christian faith. so yeah, what does that fruit really look like long-term? It's a good question to ask.

SANTA KLAUS (44:16.83)
Yeah, I don't know. mean, I don't know if like Mexico and all of South America does not really have like the best the best reputation for being like strong theologically sound Catholics.

Sleepy Jay (44:33.338)
Yeah, yeah, I mean, and I mean, I can talk about colonialism because Thomas isn't here, but I mean, when you're when you're fed, when you're fed Christianity from an oppressive, like manipulative source who just kind of shoves their way into your country and rips up all your resources and twists your economy into pieces like

SANTA KLAUS (44:41.47)
hey, Tommy. Thanks for coming in.

Sleepy Jay (45:03.152)
Yeah, that doesn't always stick long term. Eventually the kids and grandkids are a little resentful.

SANTA KLAUS (45:05.692)
Yeah, and

And I think it's also the motive of the colonizers. So there are examples of imperialism that have gone well. Like the Philippines. The Philippines is an example where, from what I've talked to, I've talked to a lot of Filipinos, they're pretty happy with, yeah. The Taiwanese have a day where they celebrate when the Dutch came.

Sleepy Jay (45:12.838)
Mm-hmm.

Sleepy Jay (45:19.698)
Mm-hmm.

Sleepy Jay (45:30.618)
Okay, yeah, no, I'll take your word for it. don't know too much about it.

Sleepy Jay (45:37.841)
Mm-hmm.

SANTA KLAUS (45:38.446)
all of that. And then I think that there's like a fruit there of what are the motives of the people that show up? And, you know, we did our episode on Isaac McCoy, who that wasn't colonization. He was like trying to stop the spread of colonization. But but the point is he was living with the Indians and trying his darndest to help them.

Sleepy Jay (45:56.517)
Exactly.

SANTA KLAUS (46:04.26)
If your motive is you just view religion as this opiate of the masses and you're like, how far can I push this just so that they get on board and they can syncretize with their little pagan practices? How far can I push this so that Rome is still happy with me and then I get a pay raise for, you know, subduing the population?

Sleepy Jay (46:18.258)
Mm-hmm.

Sleepy Jay (46:24.014)
Right.

Sleepy Jay (46:28.048)
And I think the really harsh critics of the Spanish would basically say they manipulated this story as an easy ticket to syncretize indigenous religions with the Catholic faith so that they could smooth social tensions and then do what they wanted to as far as colonialism goes.

SANTA KLAUS (46:48.198)
Right. I don't think the Catholic Church has the best record in the Americas. I mean, even just we'll do an episode on it one day, but like the Catholic presence in New Orleans, I mean, there was like some massacre where they like left a bunch of like butchered bodies in front of some church to try to like intimidate people. I mean, it was like rough.

Sleepy Jay (46:56.526)
No. No, no, no. I don't think so either.

Sleepy Jay (47:04.816)
Yeah.

Sleepy Jay (47:16.69)
Pretty gruesome stuff, yeah.

SANTA KLAUS (47:17.688)
Yes. And and so you think about I haven't read a lot of success stories. It's not David Brainerd and Isaac McCoy and like we can be nuanced and have nuanced discussion about those guys like we have. But like at the end of the day, like we know, OK, they're in heaven and their heart was in the right place. Yeah, I don't know how many Catholic missionaries, quote unquote missionaries, get that stamp.

Sleepy Jay (47:24.923)
Yeah.

Sleepy Jay (47:32.593)
Mm-hmm.

Sleepy Jay (47:36.976)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sleepy Jay (47:43.646)
Yeah, well, and we did an episode on this in the pre-Taylor era. You can check out episode 40 of the show on Bartholomew de las Casas if you want to listen to more. we shared a little bit about how awful the situation got with the Spaniards and what they were doing in New Spain and basically how they had set up this economic system where they would parcel out land.

and sell them to Spaniards who settled there and basically say like, if you lived in the land that was parceled to, know, Jose or something like that, you're basically now a slave to this guy. And so they had this system of like forced labor and very abusive, very like, I just like this iron gauntlet basically.

SANTA KLAUS (48:31.474)
That's crazy.

SANTA KLAUS (48:35.939)
you buy a couple acres, you get a few slaves. Wow. Wow.

Sleepy Jay (48:38.555)
Yeah, quite a few, man. Yeah, it's a nice little deal. I mean, and that system was going to kick off. You know, the appearance of Guadalupe was 10 years after Cortez took down the capital of the Aztec Empire. So the colonial machine was just starting to get revving along. So.

When you ask me, like personally, what I think about this story, as much as I do weirdly, maybe just as a Tucsonan, as someone who loves Catholicism, as an outsider, when I think about it, I'm just like, dude, the Spaniards had just won this huge military conflict. Natives were dying in droves because of all the diseases. So like there were like these famines and endemics that had happened.

what they really needed. Like if I am an A-religious guy and just thinking as a politician, what do I need? I need a win. I need to show these people that my faith can be very friendly and very like accessible to them. And this is this kind of story that to me as a history lover and a theology lover and a Jesus lover, this is the kind of story that feels a little bit too good to be true.

SANTA KLAUS (49:47.486)
Mm-hmm.

Sleepy Jay (50:00.157)
That doesn't mean it is, but that's kind of how

SANTA KLAUS (50:03.068)
Yeah, it sounds it sounds like more made up than. Yeah, I don't know. mean, bro, miracles. Like when we hear about miracles, I don't know. Like Christ is always at the center. Those are like Tommy. What I love about Tommy and we can talk about him because he's not here and he won't listen anyway. Tommy, for being like the most conservative of us and being like, you know, the most Presbyterian and all of that, he is like so fast to believe.

Sleepy Jay (50:17.043)
Mm-hmm.

Sleepy Jay (50:22.803)
That's right, has no idea what we're gonna say.

Sleepy Jay (50:28.147)
Mm-hmm.

SANTA KLAUS (50:33.028)
if something is Christ centered. Like he he gives the benefit of the doubt like big time. Like if someone came to him and was like I was passed out from a meth pipe and and Jesus showed up in the flesh and told me to come to church. Tommy's like absolutely he did. Me and John are like OK yeah. But and I do I like that and I'm I'm willing to play ball with that. But man these.

Sleepy Jay (50:35.635)
Mm-hmm.

Sleepy Jay (50:50.077)
Here for it, here for it, yep. Right, right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sleepy Jay (51:00.531)
Mm.

SANTA KLAUS (51:02.428)
I'd have to look up and I don't have time to look it up. So maybe you can just keep you gonna do Marian apparitions episode part two, I'd have to really dig into the rest of them to have a full conclusion. But I don't like this one.

Sleepy Jay (51:09.266)
Alright.

Sleepy Jay (51:19.015)
Yeah, it's interesting. And like I said, Gavin Ortland pointed out things like, why do most of these accepted apparitions happen to children? Like, why? Like, you know, there's all these like kind of holes you can poke if you're really, really critical about it. So, yeah, I mean, I'm not going to say that there hasn't been spirit-rich fruit that's come out of these stories. And I mean, like, dude, just...

I think the reason it gives people, Catholics in Mexico, so much pride is they're like, our lady was here with us. Like in our time of despair and brokenness, our lady came down to us and she spoke our language and she put on our skin tone. That's a beautiful thing.

And I mean, I think those incarnational truths exist with Christ and that Christ himself took on our flesh, not as our ethnicity, but as our human condition. And we can still find a lot of hope and joy in that.

SANTA KLAUS (52:19.582)
right.

SANTA KLAUS (52:23.816)
Pleased with man as men to dwell.

Sleepy Jay (52:27.475)
Absolutely. That's right. So, so yeah. All right. Well, I, we've done polls on Instagram. We don't have any Catholics that listen to our show. So I don't think we're getting any hate mail from this, but if we do, if we do, yeah, we're, we're, not, we're not sorry, but we, do care about you. I was like, we're not sorry. We say what we mean, but we say it with love.

SANTA KLAUS (52:39.494)
No, we're sorry.

SANTA KLAUS (52:45.246)
That's right. I was about to whisper. We're not sorry. Dude, I'll say this as the plane lands. say this. have you and I in particular are extremely ecumenical and we give a lot of charity to a lot of people that take the label Christian. I just struggle with the Papus, man.

Sleepy Jay (53:02.515)
Yeah, I think so.

SANTA KLAUS (53:16.682)
I just struggle with them. The more I learn the history and and it's just pretty consistent. But then at the same time when I worked at Walgreens, dude, there was a little old lady that would come in to buy her cigarettes on her way to mass every morning. And like, that lady loved the Lord. And I don't know what to do with that. You know?

Sleepy Jay (53:37.491)
Yeah.

Well dude, it's like, you know, I always think like the prototype of of faith is just the little it's grandma faith it's just that grandma who prays for her family and trusts in Jesus and like so dude there's there's this woman who I Go to see her and her husband her husband's on hospice. He's he's got dementia I see her and her I see the two of them every week

And I bring them communion, which is a very strange thing, which I should not be doing because only a priest can give Catholics communion, which I told them and they're like, we don't care. dude, I pray these are two old Mexicans in their nineties and I pray with them and I talk with them and they have just such a like.

SANTA KLAUS (54:17.022)
Yeah, that's made up.

Sleepy Jay (54:32.954)
genuine faith and every time I give the communion to to this man's wife she will hold it and she was like Jesus I am not worthy to receive you but I trust that as I receive it you will wash me clean of my sins and I'm just like dude like how there's no way I can look at this lady and be like but sure you've got some your relationship with works is a little legalistic don't you think it's like no this lady knows that she needs a savior and she's clinging to him every day and

That's beautiful.

SANTA KLAUS (55:03.358)
I do think there's definitely genuine faith in Rome. If for some reason, Rome is listening, I would say this, you guys got to get a better handle on the church, man. Like it doesn't, it does not look good that all of South America is basically pagan syncretism claiming Catholics and you can't correct it.

Sleepy Jay (55:26.414)
dude, I thought about this and it's like, the privilege of being a Protestant is also the burden of being a Protestant. Protestants do not care about tradition and if we don't like something, we will just sever it and move on and start our new thing and we will take our ball and go home. The problem with being a Catholic is they are-

They are forced to reconcile with 2000 years of tradition and yeah, some of it's the patristics, but some of it's really not savory stuff. yeah, Protestants, we don't have to, we're never bogged down by traditions we don't like. Catholics, they're only bogged down by traditions they don't like.

SANTA KLAUS (56:07.964)
Yeah, well, and that's... Yes, but our lack of tradition turns into a problem, so...

Sleepy Jay (56:13.538)
Exactly, So, you know, we need each other is really what I'm saying. We need each other. All right. Well, it was a fun one. Thank you guys for listening. We'd love to know what do you think as you're as you're hearing these stories? Do you think, you know, was it was it made up by the man or El Hombre? Was this just something the Spanish were just using as a tool of oppression? Was it a real thing? Yeah. What do you think?

SANTA KLAUS (56:19.652)
Yes.

SANTA KLAUS (56:39.848)
Si se pasa!

Sleepy Jay (56:43.386)
I'd love to hear your thoughts. appreciate you guys. Thank you so much for listening as always. We've got a really fun Christmas themed episode we're gonna be working on for you guys next week. And hopefully Tommy will be here too. So we'll have the trio back together. We love you guys. We'll see you next time.

SANTA KLAUS (56:59.922)
Bye bye!