110. At the Gates of the Crusades: The Fall of Rome

OUR CRUSADES SERIES IS HERE. 

They said we'd never do it. They said it couldn't happen. And they were almost right. 

Today, we set the stage for the massive undertaking of exploring the Crusades. We begin with an exploration of one of the three major characters in the Crusades, the Western European church.

We'll begin with a quick recap of the fall of the Western Roman Empire in 476 and blitz through a few hundred years up to the fateful call-to-arms made by Pope Urban II in 1095.

It's a doozy. But we're psyched to explore this with you guys. 

And check us out on Youtube!

Transcript

Simple Simon (00:00.634)
Hey everybody, welcome to Church History for Chumps. My name is John Simon. I'm here with my two good friends, Taylor Gabagool Treadway, and of course Thomas Tom Bombadil-Duel. And welcome to our new video podcast, The People Asked For It, and people are getting it now. Yeah. You know, my favorite comment that we've gotten on Instagram has been people who were like, you guys did not look at all like what I imagined you to.

Tom Bombadil (00:13.154)
going on.

GOBBA GOOL (00:16.44)
We're live.

Simple Simon (00:29.668)
which I don't know what to do with that.

GOBBA GOOL (00:29.726)
Somebody said, why is Taylor Andy Minio?

Tom Bombadil (00:30.786)
Yeah, what do they think? What do they think?

That was good. That was good. I saw that one

Simple Simon (00:35.846)
That was good. That was good.

GOBBA GOOL (00:36.727)
And I, I don't, is that a compliment?

Tom Bombadil (00:40.813)
Yeah.

Simple Simon (00:41.454)
Yeah, it's like you're, you're like trendy urban wear pastor guy, you know, but also white and very white.

GOBBA GOOL (00:45.058)
I can't, I don't do that. I'm wearing, I'm wearing the, we call these in the Baptist world, like the NAMM vests, like the, like the church planting vest. It's a quarter zip, dude. I preached in this one time and I pulled out the little stool to put my water bottle on and my pastor made fun of me for like three weeks.

Tom Bombadil (00:47.917)
Yeah.

Simple Simon (00:53.91)
Mm-hmm. Is that a quarter zip?

Tom Bombadil (00:57.55)
I see.

Simple Simon (00:59.75)
Quality, quality.

Tom Bombadil (01:09.326)
Did you have a coffee cup like placed right on the pulpit too? Oh, the stool. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (01:11.422)
No, that's what the stool was for. was a war. Cause we don't have a pub. We have a music stand. Yeah, he. Dude, he roasted me for like three weeks.

Simple Simon (01:18.138)
That's so... Gosh, I hate... Man.

Tom Bombadil (01:18.184)
yeah.

Simple Simon (01:26.02)
Mm-hmm. I don't understand why. What is the deal?

Tom Bombadil (01:26.526)
Isn't that like a, what's his name? Texas dude, Andy. Doesn't he have the water bottle stool? Or no, no Chandler, not Andy, Matt Chandler.

GOBBA GOOL (01:37.616)
I don't know. just did. I, And he and he Matt Stanley. Look, I just I didn't have any agenda when I did it. I just did it. All right. And that's what happened.

Simple Simon (01:41.744)
like Andy Chan.

Simple Simon (01:56.262)
You know, I want to share the Chump Nation, something that I just shared with you guys, because I think it deserves to be heard by more ears. Thomas shared with us a really great video where a black dude was kind of parodying something that is very unique to the black church experience, which is just that your pastor is probably sitting around on a Wednesday afternoon, kind of feels the spirit telling him something. He just goes on Facebook live, preaches an impromptu sermon. And I'm just like,

GOBBA GOOL (02:18.622)
That's right.

Simple Simon (02:22.278)
You can get a lot of mileage out of that, dude. I don't know. So, uh, I just, I feel like we need to talk to the white church and just kind of get them, get them, you know, just follow another, another trend. I think it would be good. I think it's gonna, you know, social media is the wave, right?

GOBBA GOOL (02:37.534)
I'm hesitant to do that, because I feel like for me, it would be almost like showboating, right? Like if I just went live. But I don't think you're like, right. It's not the same vibe as when like the 50-year-old, know, pastor, what's like a black old man named Pastor Gerald, right?

Simple Simon (02:52.238)
What's up guys, Pastor Taylor here. Hey, I just want to say.

GOBBA GOOL (03:05.33)
Demetri- okay, you racist. No, like Gerald or something. Past- Pastor- Pastor Gerald's like, hey everybody! Like, it's just a different vibe than me being like, hey I was just walking, I was always on a walk right now guys, right? Like, it's- borderline incoherent rambling is in my mind a lot more palatable than like me acting like I have something important to say.

Simple Simon (03:09.86)
Okay, also Gerald.

Simple Simon (03:16.006)
Mmm.

Simple Simon (03:33.228)
But it doesn't work if you're like, I was on a walk and it just made me think, you know, we walk with the Lord and sometimes we've got to put our shoes on. You know what I mean? Like, no, that's not the same. Black dudes will do it on their front lawn, like on the porch, on that rocking swinging bench. Just like, let me see what I got to say here.

GOBBA GOOL (03:48.094)
right.

Dude, it's always like some like hard conviction like I think some of y'all gotta get right with the Lord right now

Tom Bombadil (03:54.221)
I don't know.

Simple Simon (03:56.806)
You

That's right, that's right. Some of y'all think you got a whole lot of time, but you may not. put a young boy in the ground just last week, let me tell ya.

Tom Bombadil (04:01.16)
No.

GOBBA GOOL (04:04.52)
Yeah

GOBBA GOOL (04:08.67)
That's right. Yeah. Yeah. That's good.

Simple Simon (04:13.136)
So I don't know. don't know. think, I think we got to bring it back. But anyways, well, boys, is our, this is it. This is the beginning. I think we're going to look back on this week and be like, wow, we never knew. If only I could speak to week one of the crusades, John Taylor and Thomas over again. It's not too late to give up. Stop. it's not too late.

GOBBA GOOL (04:22.567)
I know.

GOBBA GOOL (04:29.438)
And tell them to not, yeah, tell them to not do it. This little maneuver just cost us 12 years.

Tom Bombadil (04:33.388)
Yeah, the interstellar no, no, no, no.

Simple Simon (04:43.462)
So yeah, yeah well, no go ahead go ahead

GOBBA GOOL (04:48.126)
Hey, before, I was gonna say before anybody roasts me for the Christmas tree, I'll have you know, I'll have you know, Orthodox Christmas was January 7th and it is January 8th. And Chinese New Year, no, but I am, I'm ecumenical and multicultural. And Chinese New Year's not till February, so these things can hang out for another two, three months.

Tom Bombadil (04:57.089)
It started. Yeah.

Simple Simon (04:58.214)
That's right. And you're orthodox, right, Taylor? And Chinese New Year.

Heck yeah!

Simple Simon (05:10.938)
You got all month, brother. Don't, don't let anybody rush you. got all the time in the world. man. Well, gang. So we, we, we kind of had to strategize a little bit when we talked about the crusades because we kind of found ourselves with two problems. The first one is that, the crusades is about, I don't know, eight.

GOBBA GOOL (05:14.622)
That's right. That's right.

GOBBA GOOL (05:22.654)
Yes.

Simple Simon (05:36.014)
to nine centuries after everything that we've been talking about for the past year since we've doing a ton of early church stuff. So what you guys can expect for the next few episodes is we're gonna be doing a lot of catch up. We're basically gonna try to catch you up to what's gonna start us off in the Crusades, the first Crusade. So we're gonna touch into the Muslim world.

GOBBA GOOL (05:58.832)
All ketchup, no mustard.

Simple Simon (06:02.266)
the Western world and the Eastern, like the Byzantine world. So that's kind where we're going to be dabble.

GOBBA GOOL (06:09.032)
Mmm.

Tom Bombadil (06:09.42)
and then the rise of islam right

Simple Simon (06:12.07)
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. That's right. So we'll have Islam next week and then we'll do Byzantine the week after that. And then, uh, I it's just going to be a free for all for about six months where, uh, yeah, no prep. Just, uh, we just jump on and fight.

Tom Bombadil (06:23.918)
Well, actually, we're going to be doing a Facebook Live.

GOBBA GOOL (06:23.969)
my gosh.

Simple Simon (06:29.734)
That's right. That's right. Hey, what's up? Trump nation. John here. Crusades part 17. Here we go. Yeah. All right. Well, today you're the man of the hour tonight, right?

GOBBA GOOL (06:29.88)
That's right. man.

GOBBA GOOL (06:36.677)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (06:41.732)
I am. So, first things first, follow us on Instagram, ChurchHistoryForChumps. Follow us on Facebook if you're not on Instagram. ChurchHistoryForChumps.

Simple Simon (06:52.582)
Dude, we're like 50 followers away from having a thousand Spotify followers. And I think that once we hit that milestone, we're gonna have to do another giveaway or we'll, I don't know, do like a Discord hangout or something like that, just something chill.

GOBBA GOOL (06:58.215)
Hmm

Tom Bombadil (07:00.024)
Whoa.

GOBBA GOOL (07:08.026)
I love the idea of, yeah, maybe we could do like a big hangout with everybody and play Jackbox games or something. Yeah.

Simple Simon (07:12.23)
That'd be super fun. Yeah. that sounds awesome. Yeah, that sounds great. I love that. Feel free. If the Lord moves you contribute to the chump change, AKA buy me a coffee. We'd love to be fully financially. What's the word? Independent. What's the word sustained? Yeah, there we go. I should know this as someone who used to have to support raise. I should know all this terminology. Gosh, support raising is tough.

Tom Bombadil (07:15.24)
that'd be a lot of fun.

GOBBA GOOL (07:31.427)
Dependent. Fully financially dependent.

Tom Bombadil (07:33.016)
sustainable.

GOBBA GOOL (07:40.944)
What you mean is...

Tom Bombadil (07:41.4)
think the word flush with cash.

Simple Simon (07:44.742)
That's right. And by sustainable, I mean, we're all trying to move to Calabasas. So, yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (07:45.981)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (07:50.972)
Yeah, or just be able to pay the hosting fees.

Simple Simon (07:54.982)
Yeah, and our editor who is good, but not cheap, but you get what you pay for. So there you go. Yeah, we do.

GOBBA GOOL (07:59.486)
You do. Ray does a great job. So anyway, that's where we're at. So shall we dive in? I think we should. All right.

Tom Bombadil (08:01.038)
Yup.

Simple Simon (08:11.098)
The time is now.

Tom Bombadil (08:11.192)
do it. Taylor's got the pressure of doing the first video episode.

Simple Simon (08:15.942)
That's right.

GOBBA GOOL (08:16.046)
I feel no pressure for anything ever in life.

Tom Bombadil (08:19.171)
Hahaha.

GOBBA GOOL (08:21.192)
It's November 27th, 1095, Clermont, France. It's a cool, wet morning. The Council of Clermont is in its final day of meeting. And after days of boring ecclesiastical procedure, an excommunication or two, and a few other matters, Pope Urban II stands behind his pulpit and utters these words.

Enter upon the road to the Holy Sepulcher, wrest that land from the wicked race and subject it to yourselves.

This royal city therefore situated at the center of the world is now held captive by his enemies. From you especially, she asks Sucker, because as we have already said, God has conferred upon you above all nations great glory in arms. Set out on this journey and you will obtain the remission of your sins and be sure of the incorruptible glory of the kingdom of heaven. And Robert the Monk records, when pro-urban.

that said these and very many similar things in his urbane discourse. He so influenced to one purpose the desires of all who were present that they cried out, it is the will of God. It is the will of God. Or as we know today, Deus Vult. Deus Vult! The first crusades had begun. Welcome my friends to Church History for Chumps series on the crusades.

Tom Bombadil (09:43.906)
day use.

GOBBA GOOL (09:56.594)
And then the horns come in, right? Like, brrrr

Tom Bombadil (10:00.802)
Yeah, like some Dune music, that's what we need,

GOBBA GOOL (10:05.874)
back to re-

Simple Simon (10:06.214)
Can we get, Ray, can we get a little Hans Zimmer on here, please? Just a little one of those big drops, those organ, yeah, you know, thank you, Ray.

GOBBA GOOL (10:09.414)
Rain never puts music in.

Tom Bombadil (10:09.688)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (10:13.65)
Ray's mean to me. He raised me to mean. He never puts music in. But he just doesn't. It's true. Listeners are like, how does he do what he does? We don't actually know. It just went. It just went. Shit.

Simple Simon (10:17.36)
He's not mean, he doesn't listen.

Simple Simon (10:26.8)
think he just, he has a little USB port. He just drag and drop. Doodly doodly doop. Ready.

GOBBA GOOL (10:37.36)
You know what though? We don't know how to do it. yeah. So first and foremost, before the deus vault, before the Franks were even Christian, before the Catholic Church had amassed this influence and power, before the Pope was like the King of the West, we gotta go way back. We gotta go back to the fourth century.

Simple Simon (10:39.876)
That's right. We don't have it. So, you know.

GOBBA GOOL (11:05.372)
to make sense of any of this. So first and foremost, do you guys know what the barbarians were? Like the Roman barbarians.

Tom Bombadil (11:18.83)
the barbarians trying to get into Rome.

GOBBA GOOL (11:22.898)
Well, just in general, within the Empire.

Simple Simon (11:25.958)
weren't the barbarians, that was just like the catch-all for all non-Roman tribes, right? Okay.

GOBBA GOOL (11:32.124)
Yes, that is right. And so barbarian, term comes from almost this like demeaning how they would talk. They would say bar bar bar bar bar. But that was like them making fun of them. And so you had this, you know, sophisticated elite of the Roman Empire. And then you had the bar bar bar.

Simple Simon (11:43.13)
Yeah. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (11:54.64)
out there with their pitchforks or whatever and their paganism. So the Roman barbarians were a little bit of a thorn in the side of the Roman Empire, effectively the whole time that it existed. But the Roman Empire, as you guys know, was extremely powerful, monolithic, brought a lot of people under it of many cultures. You could do your culture, could worship your gods.

Just know that Caesar is number one. That's all you need to know. Do whatever else you want. Pay your taxes. Caesar number one. So the barbarians didn't necessarily always fall in line with that. But as Christianity spread in the fourth century in particular, missions went to the barbarians, all the different tribes. Basically, when we say barbarian tribes,

they're not roman but also they live in did what was germany at the time germany was germania that that the large swath of land that we would basically consider europe

Tom Bombadil (13:01.688)
Germany.

Simple Simon (13:09.285)
Okay.

GOBBA GOOL (13:10.77)
And there's many different tribes, but they do convert to Christianity eventually, which is very important that this happens early. if you turn, well, you can't turn with me into my book, but.

Simple Simon (13:26.182)
Mm-hmm.

Tom Bombadil (13:34.382)
preacher voice coming out there.

GOBBA GOOL (13:35.546)
Right, I know dude, I know. So we have the first missions to the barbarians. And unfortunately...

It was actually Arianism that went out to them. Yeah, so this guy was named Ulphilus and he lived from 311 to 383 and Ulphilus was the first missionary to the Goths and part of the reason that he went out

Simple Simon (13:59.673)
no.

GOBBA GOOL (14:19.966)
with Aryanism, I don't know for sure if he was like a strong Aryan, but he did not do a great job. You know, we try to be very ecumenical here, right? We understand different missiologies, right? We try to be, no, we try to be charitable, but he went out and did not think that they could necessarily handle these more complex truths.

Simple Simon (14:34.374)
That's right, Aryans are Christians.

Simple Simon (14:49.062)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (14:50.014)
So it says, you know, they spoke of the father and the son as of one blood instead of the Greek philosophical language of one substance. And so that right there, and he did it to like avoid theological debate, but like that right there is like Arianism, right? There's no distinctive church community. And

Simple Simon (15:09.612)
Interesting, okay.

GOBBA GOOL (15:17.798)
The bishops and the priests from the beginning were set up like military chaplains. So there's no diocese, there was no metropolitan bishops because there's no cities. Because what was also happening with the barbarians is at this time, they're being invaded by the Huns and moving around and in flux. They're taking different territories as the Roman Empire is like weakening.

in some areas they are moving in and pressuring around. So I think we're leading up to 410 the sack of Rome, which was not necessarily the fall of the Roman Empire, but it was sort of like a beginning of the end. the big thing that I want to emphasize about the barbarian Christianity,

is they have this thing called proprietary church or the church of the ruler. So a lay patron that built the church and like brought the priest in, it was considered that that was his church and that priest like worked for him, which is totally not what we think today, right?

Tom Bombadil (16:31.446)
Interesting.

Simple Simon (16:31.514)
Hmm. Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (16:37.586)
So the, the missiology and the ecclesiology in this early times is a pretty, pretty off. But the key point here is that they identify themselves as Christians. And that is going to be extremely important when, when Rome falls. So during the sack of Rome in four 10,

Tom Bombadil (16:52.728)
Mm-hmm.

Simple Simon (16:53.126)
Okay. Okay.

GOBBA GOOL (17:04.784)
And they're flooding into the city, but they tell people if you go into churches, you will be saved.

Simple Simon (17:11.353)
Interesting.

GOBBA GOOL (17:13.064)
Had you guys heard that before? Yeah.

Simple Simon (17:14.884)
I had never heard that, no. So the people that conquered Rome had actually had been subjected to Roman missionaries, I mean, Aryan missionaries. And so they had kind of a taste of Christianity. And even though they weren't formally kind of catechized, they still identified as believers. That's wild, dude, that is crazy, okay.

GOBBA GOOL (17:31.026)
Yes.

GOBBA GOOL (17:36.594)
Yeah.

And they spared the Christians because of it.

Simple Simon (17:43.236)
Yeah, dude, that is insane. But also that makes a lot of sense for why Rome, the empire, could fall, but Christianity, even in a very fragmented way, still survived for so long in the West. So that is really fascinating.

GOBBA GOOL (17:59.14)
yeah, Augustine writes on the city of God about the fall of Rome. And so I wasn't going to read a little quote, but you know what? The first line of city of God is just kind of really sets the mood. I should have brought it up earlier, but.

Book one.

GOBBA GOOL (18:41.552)
Many of them indeed being reclaimed from their ungodly error have become sufficiently credible citizens of the city, but many are so inflamed with hatred against it and are so ungrateful to its redeemer for his signal benefits as to forget that they would now be unable to utter a single word to its prejudice had they not found in its sacred places had or had had they not found in its sacred places as they fled from the enemy steel that life in which they now boast themselves.

So he is he is directly talking like his opening line of City of God is Because you got to remember it after Rome falls. Everyone's blaming Christians for it They're blaming Christianity as a whole for why the Roman Empire weakened and you saw this new rise like let's even when Rome was under siege they were trying to do pagan practices to try to reawaken the old God strength or scrambling and Augustine just right off the bat says

Yeah, the barbarians are here, the enemies are here, but all y'all that are still alive today to be hating on Christianity wouldn't be alive today if it wasn't for Christianity. And so City of God, I have not read the whole thing in detail, but it's, I mean, it's a very prolific.

Tom Bombadil (19:56.952)
Hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (20:08.06)
I wouldn't Augustine was prolific, but this work was very profound, right? Yeah. Have you guys read it?

Simple Simon (20:12.681)
yeah, certified Christian classic.

Tom Bombadil (20:12.75)
Tom Bombadil (20:16.908)
Yes, it's been.

GOBBA GOOL (20:17.976)
Reddit, I own it.

Tom Bombadil (20:20.686)
haha

Simple Simon (20:20.74)
No, I have not read it.

More of a confessions guy myself, but that's just cause, I don't know, can sympathize with him being like, I like girls too much, God help me. I'm like, man, this guy's spittin'.

GOBBA GOOL (20:34.362)
Yeah.

So, and then the next thing I'll say for a City of God and then we'll move on is, he kind of talks about like, he really goes in detail of it is not the normal practice when invaders come into a city to spare a bunch of people.

or a specific group of people. And he actually goes into history and he quotes Diomedede and Ulysses. And this translation is so good. It says, drag with red hands, the century slain, her fateful image from your fane, her chest locks touch and stain with gore, the virgin coronel she wore. Just kind of talking about like how brutal invasion can be.

Simple Simon (21:23.814)
Mm-hmm.

Tom Bombadil (21:26.893)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (21:27.43)
So you have that, you have, so we have the barbarian tribes become Christian. I can do air quotes now because we're on video. But for our Spotify listeners, Christian air quotes. They spare the Christians in Rome. And we kind of have this collapse.

Tom Bombadil (21:36.654)
Thank

Simple Simon (21:36.998)
That's right, yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (21:52.654)
of the empire. Now, it does not happen overnight. It never does happen overnight. These sorts of things take a long time. There's still lots of power at play. People to this day argue what ultimately caused the collapse of the Roman Empire. But as we just read, Augustine does not think it's Christianity's fault. arguably, it did.

The downward spiral started when they split the empire.

Tom Bombadil (22:23.598)
Christianity did play some role in changing the totalizing claims of the Roman Empire. Even by nature of the fact that by the fourth century you have Roman emperors start acknowledging that there's a lord that's higher than them, that changes the nature of the empire to a certain degree. Power dynamics.

in Rome at the time of Jesus were really structured one way. then Christianity changes those dynamics. Without dealing away with hierarchy, it changes what hierarchy is for. And you see that kind of permeate through the empire. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (23:07.006)
Mmm, that's good. It's good observation. So you think maybe Christianity did have a part to play?

Simple Simon (23:10.438)
Yeah.

Tom Bombadil (23:14.966)
I think it did, yeah.

Simple Simon (23:17.222)
That's an interesting take, I don't hate that.

GOBBA GOOL (23:18.29)
Well, I think there's an argument to be made that Christianity is ultimately not sustainable with like a strong government. I mean, is that what you're getting at, Tommy? That like you can't, you can't like monopolize a giant swath of land with millions and millions of people without like pure power.

Tom Bombadil (23:41.778)
yeah, I'm not sure if that's exactly what I was saying, although I think it, certainly is just true. It's a fact that the bigger you get, the harder it is to keep that going for a long time. and I don't know enough about kind of like what the will of the Roman spirit was in the fourth century and on to be able to comment on that. But I think that there is valid historical analysis and contemporary analysis.

GOBBA GOOL (23:52.167)
Mm-hmm.

Tom Bombadil (24:11.566)
from the time of people just noting that, I mean, Christianity did change the empire. The interesting thing is that at the same time that it's potentially weakening the brutal strength of the Roman Empire, the Church is getting administratively stronger and stronger. So as Rome starts to fall, kind of have this parallel, you don't kind of, you do have this parallel institution, this kingdom alongside the kingdom where

I mean, they've got, I can't remember what episode it was that we talked about where it's just an example of like Antioch, I think in the forget which century, but I mean, they've got like thousands of church officers, you know, in just this one city. And when the Roman administration starts to fall apart, you still have this Christian administration that's able to kind of step in and assist and run things.

GOBBA GOOL (24:57.778)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (25:08.636)
You're you're you're yes, you're jumping ahead. Don't get no spoilers. Yeah.

Simple Simon (25:14.886)
I mean, I think even on a practical level, mean, the whole reason Diocletian kind of split the empire and started the tetrarchy was because there was just too much territory. There was too much junk going on. They were even at that time, which would have been, I don't know, a few, at least a few decades by math isn't math thing right now, but like they were already facing threats from invaders. They were already dealing with civil wars. Like, you know, they

Tom Bombadil (25:35.596)
the end of the third century.

GOBBA GOOL (25:41.058)
dude, was, it gets romanticized. You know, I just had a thought. Did the term romanticized come from Roman? The history of Rome was romanticized. Yeah.

Simple Simon (25:43.472)
They could have collapsed in the third century if they wanted to. yeah, yeah, it was a slow decline. Hit me.

You're on it, man. Well, I think it came from the romantic period, which then came from that. But yeah. Yeah, no, you're on to something, big dog. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (26:03.486)
Yeah, they they romanticized it, made it, you know, were taught that it's greater than it was. And yes.

Simple Simon (26:11.376)
You know, all the romantic languages are all derivative from Latin too.

GOBBA GOOL (26:16.318)
That's right. Which is why English is in English is not fully it's not. Yeah, it's really like a

Simple Simon (26:20.206)
No, it's not, no. English is romantic and Germanic. That's why it's so weird.

GOBBA GOOL (26:24.851)
Right. It's a it's a bastard child of the two.

Simple Simon (26:29.946)
We can't say bastard on YouTube.

GOBBA GOOL (26:32.242)
I, it's like the technical definition. I'm not swearing.

Simple Simon (26:33.252)
No, I'm just joking. think we're fine. I'm just joking.

Tom Bombadil (26:34.84)
haha

GOBBA GOOL (26:39.91)
I said asinine earlier and someone at work was like, huh? And I was like, that's not a swear word. It's asinine, you think it's a swear word.

Simple Simon (26:44.166)
Oof.

GOBBA GOOL (26:51.13)
Anyway, OK, so we are going to fast forward to the end of the fifth century to a little barbarian named Clovis. You guys heard of Clovis? I if I get to be the first person to tell you about Clovis, I am so excited. So Clovis was the king of the Franks. So the Franks were the barbarian tribe in what is now France.

Tom Bombadil (27:02.293)
Ovis.

Simple Simon (27:08.326)
All right.

GOBBA GOOL (27:20.542)
would have thought. Franks, France, yeah. So Clovis, our dear friend.

Simple Simon (27:22.103)
out.

Tom Bombadil (27:26.862)
Fun fact really quick since we're talking about the Franks. Something I learned this past week, I think this is true, but that word like Franks, where we get, know, Francia, France, comes from like the name of like the swords that that people group would carry on them, which is kind of cool.

GOBBA GOOL (27:47.106)
I didn't know that. I just think of in Age of Empires, the Franks had the throwing axe special units. not the sword. It was the throwing axe. That's cool. Who would have thought?

Simple Simon (27:47.558)
That's pretty cool.

Tom Bombadil (27:54.242)
That was it. That was it. There was the throwing axes actually

Simple Simon (28:02.33)
What a callback for Age of Empires to be like, I know what their special attack's gonna be.

GOBBA GOOL (28:07.71)
I mean, they have real historians involved. But I do think Age of Empires ruined a lot of children's understanding of history. remember in the fifth grade class, my teacher goes, how many of you guys have heard of the Dark Ages? And if you're not familiar with Age of Empires, the game, the Dark Ages is like stage one, where you just basically have a bunch of muddy peasants walking around with mud huts.

Simple Simon (28:11.534)
No, that's awesome. I mean, I'm I'm a-

Tom Bombadil (28:32.824)
picking berries and shooting deer.

GOBBA GOOL (28:33.756)
Yeah, picking berries. And this little kid goes, I know all about the dark ages. And my teacher gets all excited. And this kid proceeds to just explain what the dark ages is in Age of Empires. And the teacher was like, none of that is correct.

Simple Simon (28:50.918)
man, and this kid thought he was so excited,

Tom Bombadil (28:51.79)
Okay.

GOBBA GOOL (28:53.914)
Dude, you did.

Tom Bombadil (28:56.078)
all around it out it's called the the francisco or the french s ko was a throwing axes as a weapon during the early middle ages by the francs

Simple Simon (29:04.495)
Dang, shout out to that. And shout out to guys named Francisco. What a great name now.

GOBBA GOOL (29:04.562)
Very cool. Well, that's where we.

Tom Bombadil (29:09.55)
Yeah, it's a power name now.

GOBBA GOOL (29:09.87)
is? Well, we're talking about Clovis. Okay. First thing I'll say, a lot of what we know about Clovis is found in Gregory of Tours, History of the Franks. Some of you might have heard of this famous quote where people will say, you can look it up online. It's written everywhere that

Simple Simon (29:13.082)
Back to Clovis.

GOBBA GOOL (29:30.834)
Gregory of Tours starts his history with the greatest quote of all time and it's supposedly, great many things keep happening, some good, some bad. Have you guys heard that before?

Tom Bombadil (29:41.46)
No, but that's a great quote.

Simple Simon (29:43.174)
It's a pointless quote. It says nothing.

GOBBA GOOL (29:43.482)
It's, it's fantastic. Well, to start a history book with that, I'll say it again. A great many things keep happening. Some good, some bad.

Tom Bombadil (29:54.04)
That's the type of thing that John literally writes in Facebook comment sections. I don't know. He's got a bag on that quote.

GOBBA GOOL (29:59.484)
Yeah. So. No, no, no, here's here's my here's my dilemma. I went ahead and bought for 99 cents a copy of a history of the Franks by Gregory of Tours on Kindle, and I cannot find that quote anywhere. I spent an embarrassing amount of time of my episode prep trying to find the source for this quote. And I.

Simple Simon (30:00.62)
No, that's a stupid line.

GOBBA GOOL (30:28.89)
I'm begging the listeners because I'm just going to start telling people that this is misattributed to him and he never said it. Please help me find this. don't think it's in whatever translation I have. It is not in it. So listeners pray help please find this quote and

Tom Bombadil (30:49.198)
So this is a Clovis line that Gregory of Tours recorded. That's what you're saying.

GOBBA GOOL (30:52.954)
No, no, no, no, no. I'm saying Clovis comes from Gregory of Tours. I'm getting into the primary source right now, you know? Just setting the tone. So anyway, Gregory of Tours is where we get the story of Clovis. So we're gonna read some. Here's what he says in chapter 27.

Tom Bombadil (30:58.466)
Okay, okay.

GOBBA GOOL (31:12.798)
At that time, many churches were despoiled by Clovis's army, since he was as yet involved in heathen error. I love that sentence. That's actually a quote. Now the army had taken from a certain church a vase of wonderful size and beauty, along with the remainder of the utensils for the service of the church. And the bishop of the church sent messengers to the king, asking that the vase at least be returned if he could not get any more of the sacred dishes.

On hearing this, the king said to his messenger, follow us as far as Soissons because all that has been taken is to be divided there. And when the lot assigns me that dish, I will do what the father asks. He means the father is in bishop.

Then when he came to Soissons and all the booty was set in their midst, the king said, I ask of you brave warriors not to refuse to grant me in addition to my share yonder dish. That is, he was speaking of this vase just mentioned. In answer to this speech of the king, those of more sense replied, glorious king, all that we see is yours and we ourselves are subject to your rule. Now do what seems well pleasing to you for no one is able to resist your power.

When they said this, a foolish, envious, and excitable fellow lifted his battle axe and struck the vase and cried in a loud voice, you shall get nothing here except what the lot fairly bestows on you. At all this were stupefied, but the king endured the insult with the gentleness of patience. Taking the vase, he handed it over to the messenger of the church, nursing the wound deep in his heart. you know, scene is set. Clovis is still very much a pagan.

One could even say anti-Christian as he is, you know, pilfering from the church. But we see a soft heart. A soft heart for the church. I can't refuse this sweet old bishop.

GOBBA GOOL (33:17.264)
story continues. And at the end of the year, he ordered the whole army to come with their equipment of armor to show the brightness of their arms on the field of March. And when he was reviewing them all carefully, he came to the man who struck the vase and said to him, No one has brought armor so carelessly kept as you for neither your spear nor your sword nor your axe is in serviceable condition. And seizing his axe, he cast it to the earth. And when the other hand bent over somewhat to pick it up,

The king raised his hands and drove his own axe into the man's head. This, he said, is what you did at Soissons to the vase. Upon the death of this man. He is, is, He ordered the rest to depart, raising great dread of himself by this action. He made many wars and gained many victories. So this is Clovis, this is our man.

Tom Bombadil (33:50.828)
my.

Tom Bombadil (33:57.266)
my god.

Simple Simon (33:59.302)
The Lord's still working on this guy, I think. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (34:16.614)
And to move through his history a little bit, he ends up marrying and his wife is a Christian, a Trinitarian Christian. Very important. Very important where we're going because remember all the barbarians are what? Aryans. But she is not. And then they have a son.

Simple Simon (34:30.502)
on the fly.

Tom Bombadil (34:33.847)
Aaron.

Simple Simon (34:34.0)
Pagan.

Simple Simon (34:39.664)
Do we know why? Like how she kind of snuck in there?

GOBBA GOOL (34:43.631)
she just came from an area that was Trinitarian. Yeah, no, this wasn't like Bartholomew came and...

Simple Simon (34:47.256)
okay, alright.

Simple Simon (34:53.478)
right? I don't know. would be cool if like, you know, she'd been an area in her whole life and she had some kind of vision or something like that. I don't know.

GOBBA GOOL (34:53.495)
Is that what you were wondering?

GOBBA GOOL (35:00.966)
Right. St. Matthew appeared to her with like a lion and a bear and yeah. Thank you, pseudepigraphical.

Simple Simon (35:06.022)
He's like, you know how there's three of us? The Godhead is like that. Anyways, see ya.

GOBBA GOOL (35:11.676)
All right, I'm going to I'm going to rabbit trail for five seconds. So we got this guy, Dave, in my Sunday school class. I love Dave. Dave is new to the Baptist world and Dave has no filter. And I was telling my Sunday school class once about some pseudepigraphical stuff. It was the story that we went when we went over where the lion gets baptized. And I told my Sunday school class this and it's just silent. And Dave goes, they must have had some good hash back then.

GOBBA GOOL (35:44.902)
Shout out Dave. Okay.

Simple Simon (35:47.11)
Dave's like, I've seen a few lions baptized in my day.

GOBBA GOOL (35:49.438)
Right. So Clovis's wife, have a child. Clovis doesn't want him to be baptized. She baptizes the baby. The baby dies. Clovis actually thinks that it was the baptism. He's like, God didn't save him. But then, and then she gets, she has another son and she baptizes him and he falls sick.

Tom Bombadil (35:49.88)
Ha ha ha!

Tom Bombadil (36:04.494)
Mmm.

GOBBA GOOL (36:14.972)
He says, is impossible that anything else should happen to him than happened to his brother, namely that being baptized in the name of your Christ should die at once. But as Gregory writes, but through the prayers of his mother and the Lord's commands, he became well. the said the Queen is telling.

Tom Bombadil (36:37.947)
By the way, I love that phrase, by the prayers of his mother in the Lord's command. That's good.

GOBBA GOOL (36:42.704)
It's right. The history of the Franks is regarded as like one of the OG medieval history books. It's pretty good. So the Queen is continuing to kind of tell him.

recognize the true God, stop worshiping your idols. She was actually like, you can read earlier in this, she's telling him like, your gods mean nothing. They're just carved out of wood and stone. They're useless. And so here we come to a critical point in Clovis's life. As we've already seen, heart has softened in some areas, it's hardened in others. So we see that it comes, this is what he writes. It came about that as the two armies were fighting fiercely, there was much slaughter.

and Clovis's army began to be in danger of destruction. He saw it, raised his eyes to heaven, and with remorse in his heart, key words there, he had remorse in his heart.

He burst into tears and cried Jesus Christ, whom Clotilde, that's his wife, asserts to be the son of the living God, who are said to give aid to those in distress and to bestow victory on those who hope in thee. I beseech the glory of thy aid with the vow that if thou wilt grant me victory over these enemies and I shall know that power which she says that people dedicated in thy name have had from thee, I will believe in thee and be baptized in thy name.

and then he goes on to basically say, I've basically been a dirty heathen and they have betrayed me, they have left me, Lord, you gotta help me. Kind of your classic testimony, right?

Tom Bombadil (38:18.67)
Yeah, it's like Bible man

Simple Simon (38:21.892)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (38:23.746)
everything's fallen apart. I'm going to ask Jesus for help. And immediately after, well, as Gregory writes immediately, his enemies turned tail and ran and they, they won and, and, they, they killed the enemy King. They submitted dominion to Clovis and they said, let not the people perish further. We pray we are yours now. Okay. So Clovis then is baptized.

Simple Simon (38:26.182)
Mm-hmm.

Simple Simon (38:34.694)
Hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (38:54.376)
This is a monumental moment in Western, in sort of the Western church history because he gets baptized, everyone else follows suit, he gets baptized first.

And then this is what he writes and so the king confessed all-powerful God in the Trinity and was baptized in the name of the Father and Son the Spirit was anointed with the holy oil or the holy ointment with the sign of the cross of Christ and of his army more than 3,000 were baptized and so You have this mass conversion of the most powerful barbarian tribe in Europe

And this sort of sets the tone for what will evolve into the Europe that we have for the Crusades. So this moment is critical to talk about. I will say there's another funny story about Clovis that I cannot find the primary source for, and I'm just gonna go on another little rabbit trail. I...

Tom Bombadil (39:46.656)
Mm-hmm.

Simple Simon (39:46.886)
Hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (40:00.122)
think that we are very quick to hate on AI for hallucinating things. And I'm like, people have hallucinated stuff forever. I cannot find the primary source for this next story. It's my final little ribbon on Clovis with you will. But it's very funny. It's worth mentioning. It comes from Story of Old France by Helene Gruber. And it is a

It's a history book from about 100 years ago. And she seems to be pulling from history of the Franks, but she has this funny story about, he said, I scrolled up to get the author's name.

GOBBA GOOL (40:52.036)
Okay, here we go. On his return from the Battle of Tobia, Clovis listened for the first time to the story of Christ. When the priest of Saint Remy described how he had been crucified, Clovis grew very angry, clenched his fists, and loudly cried, if I had only been there with my Franks, I would have taught those Jews a lesson.

Tom Bombadil (41:12.899)
hahaha

He's like, where's a time machine when you need one?

GOBBA GOOL (41:20.4)
Right. So clearly on his first, his first gospel presentation. Yeah.

Simple Simon (41:23.302)
That's a very pure response to the story though. Have you seen that video that went viral a little bit where it was like this YN dude, which if you don't know the internet, just fill in the blanks. But it's like an urban black fellow who was praying at the dinner table and he was like, Lord, I pray. He's like, and I swear God, if you ever give me the chance, he's like, I'm gonna get back at Judas for what he did to your boy Jesus.

Tom Bombadil (41:48.47)
Hahaha

GOBBA GOOL (41:50.11)
There's an honesty. There's an honesty there, right? And Jesus understood that. He understands that our hearts are wicked and he loves us anyway. So there you go. So Clovis, like I said, kind of this key figure. And so you have now what is kind of the effects of the

Tom Bombadil (41:52.088)
Very pure.

Simple Simon (41:54.68)
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (42:20.498)
the barbarian takeover. So the biggest thing, there's like, there's multiple ways to break this down, but but you have the effects on society. And this is from the author of the book, I highly recommend this book, if you want a general church history, it's Everett Ferguson, you guys have that on your bookshelves? Church history, volume one, Christ to pre reformation. He does a

He does a fantastic job summarizing everything in a reasonable length of time. So this is what he says. The Germanic kings for the most part regarded themselves as Roman, acknowledged the Emperor in the East and respected Roman traditions and customs. Nevertheless, the Old Roman and the New Germanic peoples were divided by language, customs,

of food and dress, legal systems, and it took, this is his exact line, it took centuries for the two peoples to blend and become the nations of modern Europe. So you have this.

Simple Simon (43:30.885)
Okay.

Tom Bombadil (43:31.19)
It's more like they were more Catholic than they were Roman. Like the tie that was binding them was the church more so than Roman culture.

GOBBA GOOL (43:36.498)
Well, this...

GOBBA GOOL (43:43.568)
Yes, and I believe I will quote my church history professor again, but he said that if you ask a man who his like current barbarian chieftain is, he will not know. Ask him who his bishop is, he will tell you right away. So there was so much political power changing so much, but like the church kind of

Simple Simon (44:00.656)
Hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (44:08.572)
binded everybody together. They were, it was, it was the great stabilizer. The other thing, another massive difference in kind of Greco-Roman culture and the Barbarian culture is very rural as opposed to based in cities. And then this is kind of how you get into the development of feudalism because there's less cities and then...

Simple Simon (44:09.334)
Stabilizer, yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (44:36.466)
There's more, you know, random guy pops up says, I'm a feudal lord and he can kind of do it. So then the effects.

Tom Bombadil (44:43.758)
Is the title we should be using for these people Germanic? Appropriate? Okay.

GOBBA GOOL (44:50.652)
Yes. I mean, yeah, I guess I was a Germanic barbarian, the tribes, I don't know. It's important to understand that I think because of pop culture, you know, like when you think of a barbarian, what's the first thing that comes to your mind, John Simon?

Simple Simon (45:10.528)
You think of a big tall brute with an axe.

GOBBA GOOL (45:13.136)
Yeah, who has 1d12 hit die and gets a

Tom Bombadil (45:14.69)
owning.

Simple Simon (45:18.886)
and rages too much and never takes any damage.

GOBBA GOOL (45:21.734)
Right, and he's wearing like a loincloth. Yeah, Conan the Barbarian. That's just not... That's a cartoon depiction of them. It's just important to remember like they were people with their own culture and customs. And as we've said, the Huns had invaded and sort of forced them around Rome weekend. And over time, Rome just sort of like...

Simple Simon (45:24.57)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Simple Simon (45:34.31)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (45:48.838)
I don't collapse is such a strong word because what is collapse? What did they collapse to? They just sort of evolved, devolved, changed whatever title you want to use. They morphed into this new system over hundreds of years.

Tom Bombadil (46:05.474)
This might not be totally accurate, whenever I'm thinking of these peoples and this time, I think of how Vikings are depicted. That level of technology, the way they dressed, similar area, similar time.

GOBBA GOOL (46:22.366)
Yeah, so Rome was definitely ahead in tech, but in the Right, right. I'm getting to that. So Rome was very technologically advanced and they were not but being neighbors with them for hundreds of years eventually caught them up and So they they did advance Yeah, or I guess in their case probably like

Tom Bombadil (46:28.29)
I'm talking about the Germanic peoples.

Tom Bombadil (46:45.868)
Like they could build an aqueduct if they wanted to.

GOBBA GOOL (46:51.972)
siege weapons. You know, that's, that's the more important thing.

Tom Bombadil (46:53.774)
Mm-hmm.

Simple Simon (46:55.108)
Right. So that's kind of like, like when I think of the Roman Empire, I think it has all this territory and the central government has figured out how to pool these resources so that every region plays a role. But when I think of like feudalism, it's like much more tribal. It's much more localized. Like they're not going to have access to big resources, but they're going to be altogether much more self-sufficient as a smaller community.

GOBBA GOOL (47:16.114)
Yes.

GOBBA GOOL (47:25.178)
Yeah, yes, exactly. so the church in this is, this is what Ferguson writes, with the decline in central government in the West, the church took over many public services, for example, education that retained their traditional basis in the East. So in the West, though, they are bound to

Simple Simon (47:26.766)
Okay. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (47:54.28)
more of what everyone else is bound to agriculture and this like feudalism. And this is kind of where you start to see this that that medieval trope of the monasteries, right? Like that, like the monks just kind of living in solitude up on a hilltop and just copying books down and doing their studying and doing the chants.

Simple Simon (48:08.102)
Mm-hmm.

Simple Simon (48:19.11)
Well, it's almost like this was they were adapting to the new context he lived in. Because when you live in an empire, then you can be a scholar and you can be a teacher and someone in the community. But when you live in a small rural area and all you really do is study, then it makes more sense that you would kind of have more of a secluded role because it fits where you're at, I guess. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (48:42.3)
Yes, and as we've said earlier, the key thing to understand about this time as power gets more and more decentralized and gets into the hands of feudal lords, the church though still points, as Tommy said at the beginning of the episode, upwards and says,

Yes, you have your earthly kingdoms, but universal authority belongs to the Lord and everybody is on board with this. So you have your limited authority of local barbarian feudal lords that are all Christian for the most part, acknowledging the universal authority of God de facto with the church.

Simple Simon (49:12.581)
Interesting.

GOBBA GOOL (49:29.158)
You see now how the power imbalance can start to rise, add hundreds and hundreds of years on these thoughts. And then you get to the point where Pope Urban the second can stand before a council, the council of Claremont and say, we are going to war with the middle East and your sins will be forgiven if you fight.

Simple Simon (49:56.102)
He bangs the drum.

GOBBA GOOL (49:57.498)
and everyone listens.

Tom Bombadil (50:00.014)
I've been doing some thinking about that. It's kind of one of the things that I'm trying to wrap my head around and study as we're preparing is kind of how that works with the Bishop of Rome. One thing that I've kind of wondered is if some of these Germanic chieftains and lords felt like they needed permission to do that, but

Simple Simon (50:00.134)
Yeah.

Tom Bombadil (50:29.91)
I think that part of what's going on here is that because you have, it's not so much the Pope flexing his power even though maybe he had it as it is, the Pope is the personification of the thing that binds them together and they need to be bound together if they're going to be able to fight back against Islam.

He's like the key to kind of unlock the basically here's how we're going to get all of the armies together. It's like the battle of five armies or whatever in the the Hobbit. You know, it's just like you've got to have a some sort of central reason for getting together to do this. And in their case, I mean, there's a lot of reasons which which we'll get into. but the pope, the Bishop of Rome is is the guy that's able to

GOBBA GOOL (51:10.142)
In the hobbit.

Tom Bombadil (51:29.546)
say that and pull that off.

Simple Simon (51:30.704)
Yeah, we'll have plenty of time to talk about Urban and his rallying call to the Franks. Taylor, I have a question for you that is one of my notorious John Simon questions that Taylor gets mad at me because he may not have the answer.

GOBBA GOOL (51:30.728)
That's right.

GOBBA GOOL (51:47.494)
No, I'm not. I think I've evolved. You remember when I didn't that answer for Tommy's question a few episodes ago? And I realized, like, it's OK. There's no way. I'm not going to know everything. If I know it, I'll tell you. If I don't know it, I'll tell you.

Simple Simon (51:50.758)
Okay.

Tom Bombadil (51:50.976)
You

Simple Simon (51:56.23)
Mm-hmm.

Simple Simon (52:01.988)
Yeah, you don't have to sound smart. We're called church history for chumps, dude. Yeah, no one's listening to us with a master's degree. Except for me, I guess. But hey, so question. So the barbarians, one of the like stereotype tropes against a barbarian, which like you kind of said before, is almost like a slur. It basically means someone who's not ethnically Roman or even like

GOBBA GOOL (52:05.576)
I know, I'm KingChomp.

GOBBA GOOL (52:12.094)
You

Simple Simon (52:31.738)
governed by Rome, but also like they don't have Roman civility. They don't have like Roman decency. They're kind of like warmongers and stuff like that. So my question is we've got all this time and these are feudal, kind of like, yeah, like kind of tribesmen. Like, are they fighting? Like, cause I'm thinking like they have this, they have this unification through Christianity.

GOBBA GOOL (52:41.756)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (52:55.409)
All the time.

Simple Simon (53:00.144)
but they're still very divided, they're still kind of living in pockets. Like, are they rivals with each other? Is there beef? Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (53:05.886)
Oh, yes. Yes, yes, all the time. And we return. I know we're running somewhat short on time. I have a let me do a quick little thing on why Rome was the capital. And then I'm going to answer your question. I'm going to put us right up to Pope Urban-ish. OK. So Rome, main thing, you guys probably already know the answer. Why is Rome the capital?

Simple Simon (53:09.667)
Okay.

GOBBA GOOL (53:35.643)
of the church.

Simple Simon (53:38.074)
Cause that's where

Tom Bombadil (53:39.63)
That's what the Bishop of Rome is.

GOBBA GOOL (53:41.116)
Yeah, who claims papal succession to Peter. Boom. Yeah. Okay. This is where Peter was. This where the church is. Boom. That's like the main reason. There's like other factors.

Simple Simon (53:44.774)
through Peter.

GOBBA GOOL (53:58.171)
Ferguson says.

Tom Bombadil (53:58.51)
It's a good place to have an administrative hub in the ancient world.

GOBBA GOOL (54:01.406)
Exactly. even though like, like Rome switched capital or so the Roman Empire switched capitals frequently, as we've seen, they changed things around. But ecclesiastically, it sort of always stayed with Rome.

being very simple as I say that. know, there's even we've gotten into it, the nuance between Constantinople and then that eventually leads to the schism, which I think we're going to talk about. Are you going to talk about that one, John, in your episode?

Simple Simon (54:35.671)
crap, we're gonna need, maybe we need to do a separate episode on that. I'm just realizing that.

GOBBA GOOL (54:39.152)
Yeah, because the schism is part of the big

Tom Bombadil (54:40.556)
feel like that kind of goes ish with what I'm going to talk about, but the Great Schism really needs its own thing.

Simple Simon (54:47.91)
Yeah, maybe that's our fourth and final kind of like behind the scenes setup thing.

GOBBA GOOL (54:47.912)
Yeah.

Yeah, there you go. So, so the yeah, the split between the east and west was a long time coming. But yeah, Rome was boom, like right there. You know,

Geographically, even Ferguson notes, the personal factor of the steadfastness of the bishop of Rome during the Arian controversy maintained Rome's reputation for orthodoxy. So there's a lot of things that kind of point to Rome being the key. OK, so now you get to Charlemagne, Charles Martel.

Who once again is france and like where is france in europe?

GOBBA GOOL (55:40.796)
Well, no, it's kind of like the middle, right, in a lot of ways of this area that we're talking about. So Francis is a key point, and it's been powerful, and it was very powerful for a while. So let me jump forward here in my notes.

Tom Bombadil (55:59.116)
Now we're concurrent with Boniface, which we recently did.

Simple Simon (56:02.726)
Mmm.

GOBBA GOOL (56:03.536)
Yes. so Martel and Charlemagne, to summarize, brought an immense amount of power with the blessing of the church alongside of it. They conquered a lot.

This is Ferguson writes, the papal state represented the coming together of several elements. The estates left to the church, the administrative achievements of the individual pope sin, Rome and the theory that Rome belonged to the pope. And so you've got this, this view of Rome.

that's very high and you have now this military conquest and it's funny you mentioned Boniface because it's 754 Boniface dies. The West is looking now to Rome and Rome has stopped looking at Byzantium.

and you see the beginning of the split. It's already been forming, fomenting, if you will. But even in the eighth century, mid eighth century, you have it, you have it coming. And because of the power that the Franks, Clovis and fast forward 200 something years to now Martell, the hammer, Charles Martell and Charlemagne, Rome now looks to them.

And this is just, it's just, we don't have time to get into this kind of like the philosophy of all this, the theology of when you have poor ecclesiology. I would say this is the beginning of really when the church starts getting messy and becomes very political when they turn and then sort of link hands with the Franks.

Simple Simon (57:53.35)
Hmm.

Simple Simon (58:04.23)
Hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (58:05.488)
And they're going to continue on with that. Not all bad things happened during this time. So there was a lot of the outer reaches of Europe, Ireland. You know, you got St. Patrick. got, you know, we already said Boniface was doing missions, kind of with these more backwoods tribes.

So so you have you have more expansion of the gospel happening in this time But I would also say this is the beginning of some pretty intense perversion and power Dynamics that the church is grabbing that it should not have And then you've yeah

Simple Simon (58:44.848)
You think this is kind of the beginning of that kind of political ecclesial marriage that is gonna boil over into the Reformation centuries down the line?

GOBBA GOOL (58:55.12)
I mean, yeah. Yeah. I mean, we're all, you know, we're all part of the same human story in the long run. The butterfly effect and everything. But I think, yeah, simple definition, simple summary. Yes. This is the beginning that's going to lead. But this it doesn't we don't care about the Reformation right now. We care about like what leads. Right. I was tasked with explaining why Pope Urban can stand up and say we're going to invade.

Simple Simon (59:14.96)
Right, yeah, yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (59:23.118)
Middle East and take Jerusalem back and everybody listens and I feel like I've done that In my allotted time, dude, it's the time 59 30. I

Simple Simon (59:33.39)
In less than an hour, in less than an hour. Also, you did not answer my question at all.

GOBBA GOOL (59:38.694)
What about barbarians with the power? Dude, I'm totally going to be that perfect.

Simple Simon (59:40.804)
Yeah!

Well, I said like, are, they beef with each other? And you were like, absolutely. Anyways, here's why Rome is so important.

GOBBA GOOL (59:48.158)
Well, no, they beefed with each other in the sense of like they were always at war and then eventually the Franks Evolved to the point where they and even then even after the Franks evolve and take a lot of power There's always There's always Uprisings, they're always fighting we live in by far the most peaceful time in human history And then people are like no more wars. This is big. There's not

Simple Simon (59:54.304)
Right. Okay.

Simple Simon (01:00:07.322)
They're still going to be still beef. Okay.

Simple Simon (01:00:13.35)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (01:00:19.729)
like

Simple Simon (01:00:20.742)
So another normie question is, I know that Germanic and Frankish are not interchangeable terms. Are Franks part of the Germanic peoples and the Franks just kind of become the main character of these tribes in the West? Or what am I missing?

GOBBA GOOL (01:00:39.71)
At the risk of being absolutely wrong, I'm going to say emphatically yes.

Simple Simon (01:00:44.164)
Okay, okay, all right.

GOBBA GOOL (01:00:47.57)
I think you're correct.

Simple Simon (01:00:49.434)
Alright, alright, okay. I'll go with that. And if we find out we're wrong, we'll correct you guys. We'll correct next week guys, don't worry.

GOBBA GOOL (01:00:54.238)
Dude I I'm We try okay, and yes, I will say as we land the plane on this I'm gonna be a little proud of myself. I'm gonna pat myself on the back because I'm the guy that's like man I could have done a whole episode on like Charles Spurgeon's like year in France Been like and guys this is it's really important that he stared at this beach for two hours And let me tell you why let me tell you why let me read you what he records about this beach

Tom Bombadil (01:01:13.71)
Hmm.

Simple Simon (01:01:17.478)
you

Tom Bombadil (01:01:17.951)
Hahaha.

Simple Simon (01:01:20.934)
Yeah, dude, we kind of torture you by being like, hey, could you cover 500 years of history in 45 minutes?

GOBBA GOOL (01:01:25.374)
800 years. Yeah, PS. we'll give you 50. You get 50.

Simple Simon (01:01:33.432)
Yeah, yeah.

Tom Bombadil (01:01:33.88)
Well, there's a factor going on here where the next three episodes, I guess, they're all gonna kind of like interlink with each other. Cause like there's, there's some, there's details here that Taylor just can't do in an hour that will have to be filled in in other episodes from like different angles. So hopefully by the time we've made it through these next four episodes or the next three, it will be really, really.

GOBBA GOOL (01:01:43.486)
That's right.

Simple Simon (01:01:43.929)
Yeah.

Tom Bombadil (01:02:03.572)
laid out well where we can then start diving into some of the actual crusades.

GOBBA GOOL (01:02:06.938)
Yeah, I mean, I really only talked about Europe, so we don't even, yeah.

Simple Simon (01:02:11.846)
Well, dude, that's the thing. When I think, I think the three of us are on the same page here. The three main characters of, especially the first crusade are the Western Christians, the Eastern Christians and the Muslims. So we want to dedicate an episode to each of those. And then, which we absolutely realized as we were talking, we need to talk about why the East and West broke up, which is really something we've been hinting at for a very long time. Cause the East and West have kind of been

GOBBA GOOL (01:02:24.178)
Yes.

GOBBA GOOL (01:02:33.852)
Yes.

Simple Simon (01:02:41.31)
They've formed in different theological circles since their inception basically, but

GOBBA GOOL (01:02:45.714)
They have. And the patristic era is split even between East and West. Mm-hmm.

Simple Simon (01:02:49.562)
yeah, yeah. Between Rome and Alexandria, like dude, they were like rivals for a while. They dealt with different heresies. They had different languages. Yeah, they were culturally becoming more and more different. The fact that it took them a thousand years to split up is crazy. yeah, yeah, big props, but that's gonna be a fun episode. All right, well, Taylor, good job, man. I'll join you in patting you on the back, bro. That was good. Yeah, well.

GOBBA GOOL (01:03:03.774)
Give him props for that.

GOBBA GOOL (01:03:10.194)
The tailor's, thank you. Yeah, feels great, thank you.

Simple Simon (01:03:17.318)
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to our kickoff for the Crusades. If you're wondering why, why aren't there any people getting killed yet? Again, you gotta wait. We're doing, we're doing our due diligence. We're going to build the story, build in the backstory. And we'll be back next week to talk about Islam. That's true. Yeah. A little teaser, a little teaser.

Tom Bombadil (01:03:32.088)
We had a guy take an axe to the head in this episode.

GOBBA GOOL (01:03:35.806)
Guys, if you want something fun to read, just read history of the Franks. It's a fast read. There's he's just I think he's unintentionally funny about how he does it, but it is just amusing all you know, nonetheless.

Simple Simon (01:03:48.112)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that's a good pull, man. That was a good reference to be able to make. That's solid.

GOBBA GOOL (01:03:57.742)
I was so happy to tell you guys about Clovis that you had never heard of him. I was so happy. I love his story so much.

Simple Simon (01:04:00.87)
Yeah.

Simple Simon (01:04:07.044)
Alright, well boys, good first step. Listeners, thank you guys so much for listening to us. We got a whole lot to do from here. Or viewers, yeah, that's right.

GOBBA GOOL (01:04:10.61)
That's right. Or watchers. If you're watching, yeah. Hey, bump us up at long time, long time listeners, Jackson, LM, who else, who else?

Tom Bombadil (01:04:10.754)
Yep.

Tom Bombadil (01:04:14.84)
Yeah.

Simple Simon (01:04:24.656)
Sean Harmsen, that sweet couple that has been following us for like two years. Also, dude, I realized in May, we will have been doing this podcast for three years. Not you, Taylor, just me and Thomas, but yeah, three years.

GOBBA GOOL (01:04:26.024)
John Harmsen.

GOBBA GOOL (01:04:36.392)
That's crazy. know. You're coming up on a year with me, which is nuts. Singapore, Singapore, I need you guys to get everybody. Just go watch the episode. If you're listening on Spotify, God bless you. Open it up on YouTube and mute it and leave it on. Just get us the view counts.

Simple Simon (01:04:42.011)
I know.

Tom Bombadil (01:04:42.242)
you guys

Simple Simon (01:04:54.726)
That's right. You know how like on YouTube you can send out, can like give someone hype? Do that. Give us hype. Like, comment, subscribe, share, put us on Facebook. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (01:05:04.92)
Ari, get on it. Come on.

Tom Bombadil (01:05:08.974)
We got our Buzzsprout stats. Did you guys look at that? Three years of podcasting and right now we're at 29,000 downloads of all time.

Simple Simon (01:05:13.476)
Yeah, I did. Yeah.

Simple Simon (01:05:18.466)
And more than half of those were from last year.

GOBBA GOOL (01:05:19.888)
Wait, that can't be right because we hit 50,000 downloads total.

Simple Simon (01:05:25.446)
you're right. Yeah, yeah, we've done more than 50.

GOBBA GOOL (01:05:28.318)
It was 20, was it 29,000 this year?

Tom Bombadil (01:05:31.694)
Maybe it's 29 this year. Oh yeah, it was 29,000 this year. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (01:05:33.86)
Yeah, man, you guys really blew up around early March. You guys, you guys blew up and what happened in March? I know.

Simple Simon (01:05:35.238)
I

Tom Bombadil (01:05:43.246)
I don't know it's like kind of foggy. You're breaking up. You're breaking up.

Simple Simon (01:05:43.92)
What's that, Taylor?

Huh? Yeah, I can't hear you, Taylor. Sorry.

All right, they don't wanna hear us talk about our stats. Thank you guys, we love you. We'll talk to you next week. That's true. All right, see ya.

GOBBA GOOL (01:05:55.644)
Love you guys! It's them! Yeah! Alright, bye guys. Bye-bye.

Tom Bombadil (01:05:55.702)
It's there, it's done though. Yeah, God bless you.