119. The Crusades Begin...The Siege of Antioch

So far in our series on the First Crusade, we've discussed the failures in great detail. But what about the victories? Surely our Frankish friends had to taste some success, right?

Right you are indeed. After cruising through the Battle of Nicaea, the Crusaders would earn a massive dub, after the grueling and painfully slow Siege of Antioch. 

This story has it all: human catapults, inside agents, comparisons to Lord of the Rings, and even a holy relic. It's a fun time!

Also shoutout to Ben Watson, wherever you are, we hope you're doing good. 

Buy us a coffee: https://buymeacoffee.com/chumphistory

Transcript

GOBBA GOOL (00:00.46)
Hey everybody, it's Taylor with Church History for Chumps and I'm joined with my two best friends, John Boom Bat Simon and Tom's, ba-da-ba-ba-da-da-ba-da, Bombadil.

Jim Salmon (00:00.526)
Hey.

Tom Bombadil (00:14.596)
Nice. I got some scatting going on here.

Jim Salmon (00:19.096)
No, that's good. This is good.

GOBBA GOOL (00:20.12)
I didn't know how to do Ska. John's so mad at me. John's...

Jim Salmon (00:22.638)
I think you knew how to do anything you did just now. I don't think you know what you're doing at all. I don't think you know what you're doing. No, no, that's fine. It's hilarious. It's hilarious. This is a great little riff. Wow. All right. I invite you, I'm looking up, I invite you on my podcast. On the day of my daughter's wedding.

GOBBA GOOL (00:27.756)
Shots.

Tom Bombadil (00:39.444)
Ha ha.

GOBBA GOOL (00:42.228)
It's the Bugs Bunny meme, our podcast.

Jim Salmon (00:46.574)
This is... That's fine. That's fine. No, nothing is sacred anymore. That's right. That's what I believe.

GOBBA GOOL (00:51.542)
You know, I didn't say this is Baptist history for chumps.

Jim Salmon (00:56.75)
You're darn right you did.

Tom Bombadil (00:59.434)
But our listeners did. Or they're looking forward to it, is what they said.

Jim Salmon (01:01.656)
No, they didn't. No, no, no. Don't let the violent minority seize power. That's how Anabaptists happened.

GOBBA GOOL (01:07.403)
Mm-hmm.

Tom Bombadil (01:12.37)
Yeah, I think we have the Anabaptist in our chat. We need to, I got a shout out. We were always shouting out Spotify listeners, but we need to shout out Instagram commenters too. We had an Instagram comment that I just saw. Let's see if I can find it again. Yes, it's from our boy, Ben Watson. Did we already talk about Ben's recent comment? Yeah. Ben commented.

Jim Salmon (01:14.903)
You

Jim Salmon (01:35.936)
He's still alive dude, I was worried about him.

Tom Bombadil (01:41.766)
He said, hello chumps, it's your old bud Ben. Even though I haven't been active commenting on IG, I've still been listening to all the episodes. They rock! I will never forget the time you mentioned me in a podcast comparing me to a Spanish conquistador who enslaves the people of Tucson. Thanks!

GOBBA GOOL (02:00.694)
I don't even remember that.

Jim Salmon (02:00.96)
love that love that did i don't think i told you guys this story if i did i definitely didn't tell you on air i preached a guest sermon about six months ago at a church that my wife used to go to for a long time and as i was finishing you know it's like you kind of you do a guest sermon so it's kind of awkward like the little like you know meet and greet with people that you don't know super well you're always like good

Tom Bombadil (02:01.66)
Yeah, very band coded comment.

Jim Salmon (02:29.016)
Good job, pastor. Thanks for coming by. And so like, I'm just kind of making awkward small talk with folks and, and a lady and one of the girls, she's like a college student, I think was visiting and she was like, is your name John Simon? And I said, yeah. She's like, do you have a podcast about church history? I was like, I do. And she said, yeah. So I've never listened to it, but I have a friend in Phoenix. His name is Ben Watson.

Tom Bombadil (02:50.163)
Haha.

Jim Salmon (02:58.568)
Son of a gun. But I also thought it was great that like that's also not the first time that I thought I was going to be complimented on my sermon and someone just talked about the podcast instead. Humbling experience.

Tom Bombadil (03:09.022)
Yeah, they're like, don't quit your day job.

Jim Salmon (03:12.462)
I'll tell you one thing I like, your podcast. Certainly not this calling of yours. All right, you got me, you got me. So Ben Watson, good to hear from you, brother. I hope that Phoenix is, I don't know, I hope it's not what I think it is. But yeah, dude. Also Thomas, thank you for keeping up with Instagram. I dropped off the social media because I deleted all my social media apps for Lent. So I was like, yeah, I know.

GOBBA GOOL (03:18.135)
Mmm.

Tom Bombadil (03:39.39)
Ouch. I supposedly did that.

GOBBA GOOL (03:39.767)
That was very irresponsible of you.

Jim Salmon (03:42.03)
no!

Yeah.

Tom Bombadil (03:46.462)
Yeah, but we got Ben in the comments. We got some other people in the comments. So we'll be checking the Instagram more often. So if you're not following us on Instagram, we do that. That's where we post our reels.

Jim Salmon (03:51.906)
Definitely. Most definitely.

GOBBA GOOL (03:56.151)
You know, I check Facebook for all my boomers. Jacob, shout out. Jacob DMs me. Jacob asked if we were still sending me to the Middle East on a mission trip. Right, Jacob, I'm actually undercover with the IMB. They say Near East.

Jim Salmon (04:00.664)
That's right.

Tom Bombadil (04:09.226)
Thanks for checking in.

Jim Salmon (04:09.358)
That's assuming that you haven't been in the Middle East this whole time.

Jim Salmon (04:17.006)
I am be and IRA and you know what I'm I ran Yeah, no, we've had some good we got a great comment from a guy named Isaac first comment ever it just said great pod and it was on an episode like 40 Episodes ago, so I don't know what we are. Thanks man. Thanks for finding it another gal named Chrissy commented on a

GOBBA GOOL (04:36.513)
Thanks.

Jim Salmon (04:42.751)
our 27th episode, good gravy, it was the one we did on Nestorianism and she very graciously pushed back on our assumption that Mary was a pre-teen. So that episode was recorded years ago. I do not remember what we said. It was on Nestorianism about Mary being the mother of God, which she... 27.

Tom Bombadil (04:55.55)
What number is that one?

Tom Bombadil (05:00.618)
What number, what number, uh, I just wonder if that's, uh, if that's, no, it's not the same Chrissy. Okay. It's spelled different. Okay.

Jim Salmon (05:07.084)
You know, we-

Okay, okay. Yeah, you know, that was also appreciate everybody hopping on not necessarily to pick a side on the on the heated chump talk we had, but just praising that we were able to, you know, navigate it as, as buds, because I don't know if you guys know this, but, me, Thomas and Taylor, all three of us, we have some, some mileage on just arguing with each other, mostly off the podcast, but it's one of my favorite things to be able to disagree lovingly with friends is great. what'd you say, Taylor?

GOBBA GOOL (05:35.891)
Around a hookah.

I said off the pod and around a hookah.

Jim Salmon (05:43.533)
That's right. That's back when I used to be enslaved to nicotine.

Tom Bombadil (05:44.126)
Yes.

GOBBA GOOL (05:46.143)
Yeah, LM, LM, you got what you want. And OK, here's the other thing, listeners, if you want to have any say over what we're going to do a break between first and second crusade, a short little break, a little baby, a little baby Baptist break, if you will. And because through alliteration.

Jim Salmon (06:00.973)
Short break, short break. Yeah.

Baptist break.

Tom Bombadil (06:09.33)
Is Baptist take breaks? Lots of breaks.

Jim Salmon (06:10.733)
BBT.

GOBBA GOOL (06:12.787)
No, a baby Baptist break. That's three B's. Anyway, LM, guys, you guys have to tell us what to do or LM is just going to be like, can I get an episode on blah, blah? And then we're just going to say.

Jim Salmon (06:15.083)
Gosh, I'm sorry.

Tom Bombadil (06:23.688)
gonna run the show.

Jim Salmon (06:25.933)
Pretty soon we're gonna be sending him t-shirts. We'll make t-shirts called LM asked for this. That's all it's gonna say.

GOBBA GOOL (06:31.575)
So if you guys have anything in church history you're curious about you got to go into the comments and say it like this week because we're coming up

Jim Salmon (06:39.915)
Yeah, let us know. Honestly, some of our favorite episodes we've done have been requests from fans, so sometimes they're about things we've never even studied before.

Tom Bombadil (06:46.729)
I think some of-

I think that our listeners should go on and guess what LM's initials stand for. Drop that in the comments.

Jim Salmon (06:58.007)
I'm gonna say about LOMAMA. LOMAMA.

Tom Bombadil (07:02.63)
momma. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (07:04.171)
Lamar, Lamar.

I'm of it.

Jim Salmon (07:08.223)
La Mar. That's what L.M. stands for.

GOBBA GOOL (07:14.485)
I was thinking like Lamar Matthews.

Jim Salmon (07:16.461)
Okay, Thomas was your guess.

Tom Bombadil (07:16.767)
you

I was gonna do something like that too, like black name, white name, you know?

Jim Salmon (07:23.981)
LeDravious... nickels or something?

GOBBA GOOL (07:24.279)
A little more Matthews.

Tom Bombadil (07:27.722)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (07:29.225)
Latrabius. That's, I think, that is one of the greatest skits ever written from, yeah.

Jim Salmon (07:37.867)
The key and peel. Yeah.

Tom Bombadil (07:37.914)
yeah, dude I was watching ESPN the other day and I was sitting in a restaurant and looked up and I'm like, is this an East West skit bro? Because it was showing a bunch of names and it looked like this skit man! Like I don't even recognize these names!

GOBBA GOOL (07:50.955)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (07:51.338)
It's, yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (07:54.647)
Tractarian Tachtharius. Like, it's so good. Yeah. But thank you guys for all the support. are actually, we're trying to figure out how to accurately count our numbers because of the introduction of video. But we always go behind the scenes. I think we told you guys what we were at 3,500 kind of near the end of the year last year. We're looking at we're about 4,000.

Jim Salmon (07:54.945)
Man.

Tom Bombadil (07:57.268)
Ha ha ha ha

Jim Salmon (08:00.791)
They are really good. They are really good.

Jim Salmon (08:23.797)
Yeah, yeah, think Spotify I think is give... Yeah, yeah, I think Spotify has given us a tiny little baby Baptist boost because we went to video. So that's awesome. That's super cool. Plus, yeah, yeah, honestly, that's a big part of it. A lot of engagement.

GOBBA GOOL (08:24.759)
So that's really cool. A month. $4,000 a month.

GOBBA GOOL (08:37.917)
And honestly, probably our comments.

Guys, our comment section is like more lit than a lot of podcasts that are bigger than us.

Jim Salmon (08:48.183)
That's right. Yeah. And as always, if you guys want to, if you, if you want to take this relationship to more than friends, you can always buy us a coffee. because as much as we love making this, that's yeah, you can get a free haiku. And honestly, you know, we're going to talk about the siege of Antioch. I'll tell you this. our creditors are going to be sieging our homes pretty soon if we don't get some supporters. So, please, please help us.

GOBBA GOOL (08:59.959)
Think, buy yourself a haiku.

Tom Bombadil (09:15.508)
Do you even care about my children? Chump, chump, listeners.

Jim Salmon (09:18.029)
That's yeah, Thomas can only feed one child for every donation we get per month. So.

GOBBA GOOL (09:26.657)
Do you guys know the term ham-fisted?

Tom Bombadil (09:27.348)
Think of the children. Yes.

Jim Salmon (09:30.655)
Isn't that what you guys bring to potlucks on Sunday?

GOBBA GOOL (09:35.133)
Alright, that sounds good. A ham-fist. That sounds good.

Jim Salmon (09:36.013)
Just a ham fist.

Jim Salmon (09:42.381)
It's like a pork knuckle.

GOBBA GOOL (09:42.679)
No, we're not we're not black Baptists

Tom Bombadil (09:45.492)
Calm down, Taylor. Calm down.

Jim Salmon (09:48.328)
Yeah

A of black jokes today, Taylor. All right. You know what it is? It's because it's because black history month is over and it's a meeting like, all right, gloves are off. Meets back on the menu, boys. All right. Shitlin's back on the menu. All right, we're done. We're done. We're moving on. I'm half black. You can tell a few. Yeah.

Tom Bombadil (09:52.01)
That's another good Keen Peels kit.

GOBBA GOOL (09:54.635)
I didn't, you started the black jokes.

Tom Bombadil (10:00.33)
Yeah

Tom Bombadil (10:06.228)
Hahaha

GOBBA GOOL (10:07.031)
shit lens. The last thing I'll say before we start, I went to a like a soul food spot when I was in Charleston. It was just near the airport. Just Googled soul food near the airport and golly man. Dude. Well, you got to be like, I didn't want barbecue. You know what I'm saying?

Tom Bombadil (10:21.246)
Goaded, sir.

Tom Bombadil (10:27.358)
He accidentally ended up at a South Korean barbecue place.

GOBBA GOOL (10:31.131)
Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm here. Might as well. Yeah. man. It was so good. They were so nice. But it was definitely like you walk in and there's like the little like cafeteria style. Like you grab your plate and then you just tell them what you want on the plate.

Jim Salmon (10:33.293)
best bibimbap I've ever had.

Jim Salmon (10:49.104)
Dude, I never knew there because I didn't know until I went to Birmingham last year that those are called meetin' meetin threes Where it's like you get a meetin three sides I never I never knew that was like a like a genre But I was fascinated by it and it's so good

GOBBA GOOL (10:58.229)
Yeah, that's what it was.

GOBBA GOOL (11:06.42)
It the best part I think is it really just that when you we've been to I've been to a few spots like that and it just tastes like good home cooked food.

Tom Bombadil (11:06.612)
get some meat and three.

Tom Bombadil (11:14.09)
Alright, we gotta jump into the pot, but really quick, what's the best meet and threes if you gotta do it? Alright, Taylor, pick a meet and three.

Jim Salmon (11:21.895)
I see. Like an actual, okay. Yeah, yeah, I hear you.

GOBBA GOOL (11:23.095)
ooh. I did barbecue chicken, greens. This is what I got at the three sons, my three sons. I got barbecue chicken, or greens, mashed potatoes, and mac.

Tom Bombadil (11:24.169)
Yeah.

Tom Bombadil (11:39.466)
So.

Jim Salmon (11:40.301)
All right, I'm gonna big back myself right now. I'm gonna do a country fried steak, mashed potatoes, mac and cheese collard greens.

Tom Bombadil (11:51.658)
All right, good, Brisket, fried okra, cheesy mash, and maybe baked beans.

Jim Salmon (11:55.597)
Oof. Oof.

GOBBA GOOL (11:57.623)
OHHHH!

Jim Salmon (12:04.121)
This man cooked. This man cooked. Yeah that was... Yeah, greens are essential. Alright, we're 12 minutes in. One thing I also love about Spotify, they break up all of our episode chapters so we don't have to tell you guys when the banter ends. You can just click it.

GOBBA GOOL (12:04.562)
Tom Bombadil (12:05.802)
I'm talking about Big Mac.

GOBBA GOOL (12:07.511)
Tommy, Tommy, Tommy owned us. You didn't have the greens though, bro.

Tom Bombadil (12:11.913)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (12:13.493)
You got that on the side.

GOBBA GOOL (12:21.535)
Welcome to all the people that have skipped the banter.

Jim Salmon (12:24.557)
That's right, welcome to the show. All right, we're on the siege of Antioch. Guys, for all the crusade talk, we haven't gotten a lot into just the nitty gritty of warfare. And that's what we're finally doing today. And good gravy, there's a lot to talk about. So yeah, let's jump in. So to kind of catch you guys up, we've been going through the crusades since the beginning of this year. We kind of set the table talking about the major parties. We've of course got...

GOBBA GOOL (12:26.111)
You

Jim Salmon (12:51.177)
the Islamic armies, we've got the Abbasids, the Fatimids, the Seljuk Turks who were kind of the big, big bosses around right now. We have the Western Christians, also known as the Franks. That's where the Crusaders are coming from in kind of this scattered Confederacy of European states. We've got the Byzantines, the Eastern Christians under Alexios II, the Grand Emperor of the Eastern, of the Byzantine Empire.

And yeah, so we've talked through a handful of things. We got into the People's Crusade a couple of weeks ago, which was basically a bunch of farmers trying to be warriors and just making an absolute fool of themselves while killing some Jews along the way. We got into a great portrait led by our good friend Tommy Diesel about our good guy Godfrey of Boyan, who was a man of piety in character, which, good gravy, we needed a little piety in character.

GOBBA GOOL (13:30.571)
following geese.

Jim Salmon (13:48.269)
So today we're doing the Siege of Antioch, is the first and I would argue most essential major battle of the First Crusade. So let's get into it. If there was one silver lining to the People's Crusade, it's that it set the bar of expectation astronomically low for what the Crusaders were capable of.

A stunning failure by all accounts, the People's Crusade had convinced the Islamic armies that these Europeans were nothing more than hordes of peasants with butter knives and pitchforks. The first major battle the Crusaders faced was the Siege of Nicaea, which remarkably went pretty darn well for the Crusaders. The siege only lasted over a month and while the eventual skirmishes did have some pretty heavy casualties on both sides, the Franks were feeling confident as they trekked onward.

one city closer to Jerusalem. One notable count who we'll actually be talking about a couple times, Stephen of Bloi? Bloi? I think it's Bloi. He wrote to his wife a letter and he said, my dear, things are going so well that I believe that as long as Antioch doesn't hold us up, we should be in Jerusalem in five weeks. Man.

Tom Bombadil (15:03.786)
OOOO

Jim Salmon (15:06.317)
They say the Lord lasts when we make plans and God may have been chuckling. Yeah, that's right. Somebody would have made some good, some good money betting against that claim because hold them up. Antioch most certainly would. The siege of Antioch would last from the middle of October in 1097 until the end of June, the next year in 1098. That's eight grueling months.

Tom Bombadil (15:09.128)
Yeah, good thing they didn't have cow she vets back then, because boy was good.

Jim Salmon (15:36.673)
That would include massive losses of life, widespread famine and hunger, incredible supply shortages and waves upon waves of desertions. Low morale was everywhere. It would be by far the greatest test to the Crusaders. And ultimately, the Crusaders would triumph against the odds with a combination of military finesse and a holy artifact helping lead them on to victory.

So let's begin Siege of Antioch, fascinating story, real excited to get into it. Now for us casual fans of church history, Antioch should be a name that rings at least a few bells for us. I'm gonna put Tommy and Tay on the spot real quick. When you guys think Antioch, especially with our long series on the early church we did last year, what springs to mind or who springs to mind?

Tom Bombadil (16:27.21)
First organized church outside of Jerusalem.

Jim Salmon (16:29.623)
Bang, yeah, from three, Tommy with that one. Antioch believed to be the first non-promised land established church, believed to be established by the Apostle Peter. Taylor, what else?

GOBBA GOOL (16:42.359)
Wasn't one of the big boys in the patristic era was there? Ambrose? Was it? No, Ambrose was in Milan.

Jim Salmon (16:46.797)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (16:50.795)
Yeah, that was Italy. was second century. He was a martyr.

GOBBA GOOL (16:56.842)
polycarp. No, polycarp was from Smyrna. Dang it.

Jim Salmon (16:59.447)
Smyrna.

Jim Salmon (17:04.053)
Seven letters. Not in the name, he wrote seven letters.

GOBBA GOOL (17:08.817)
gosh, the Jaguars. he did a tour. He wrote to the Ephesians a bunch. He did his world tour. Ignatius. Ignatius. Iggy bop was too much of a hint. Thank you. Yeah.

Jim Salmon (17:12.141)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (17:16.779)
Yeah, Iggy Pop, come on, Ignatius, that's right. Ignatius of Antioch. big. I gave you everything I could. Yeah, so very, very historically significant. But what you might not know is that Antioch was also a very significant economic and cultural hub, a very big, important city in Byzantine. It was in...

Tom Bombadil (17:19.174)
Ignitious.

Jim Salmon (17:45.633)
Syria at that point in time Antioch is in modern-day Turkey though. So I guess kind of in that Eastern Anatolia. Yeah, Anatolia Asia minor that kind of that kind of deal and so Antioch had been yeah, very very important and We already talked a little bit about how Alexios was

Tom Bombadil (17:54.119)
Anatoly

Jim Salmon (18:11.669)
Alexios the second the emperor of the Byzantine Empire He kind of had this interesting relationship and we're gonna see some things develop as we talk about this He's got an interesting relationship with the Crusaders He is kind of hoping that the Crusaders are just gonna be a fun free army of mercenaries that can swoop in and Just take back a lot of territory that he'd lost so he was pretty psyched about it

The problem is they didn't have really clear set boundaries as to what they expected from one another and that's going to kind of bite them in the butt a little bit. Antioch, absolutely. Antioch is going to, Antioch historically, big part of the Byzantine Empire is going to fall to the Muslims in the seventh century back when they have their first big explosive growth period.

Tom Bombadil (18:47.412)
lot of cooks in the kitchen.

Jim Salmon (19:04.653)
The Eastern Empire will reclaim it in 969 but just about a decade before where we're at today in 1085 the Seljuk Turks, another big Muslim army is going to overtake it. so like Alexios, you just got to imagine is like licking his lips just like, man, if those crusaders could take back Antioch and give it back to us, that would be freaking awesome. And so the crusaders

Riding high off of a great wind nice neat and tidy win over Nicaea are gonna venture towards Antioch and the first thing they're gonna acknowledge is that this place is freaking massive it is gigantic I'm gonna read a quote from our friend Thomas Asbridge He says Antioch lay nestled between the Orontes River and the foot of two mountains starin and Silpius

In the 6th century, the Romans enhanced these natural features with a circle of some 60 towers joined by a massive enclosing wall three miles long and up to 60 feet in height, running along the banks of the Orontes and then up and across Starin and up Silpius' precipitous slopes. Hundreds of feet above—oh, thank you, Tommy—hundreds of feet above the city proper near the peak of Mount Silpius, a formidable citadel—

crowned Antioch's fortifications. By the late 11th century, this defensive system had been weathered by time and ravaged by earthquakes, but it still presented an awesome obstacle to any attacking force. Indeed, one Frankish eyewitness was prompted to write that the city would, quote, dread neither the attack of machine nor the assault of man, even if all mankind gathered to besiege it.

Tom Bombadil (20:53.64)
Helms deep.

Jim Salmon (20:55.647)
So they're just immediately like, all right, this is not Nicaea. This place is gigantic. And yeah, it's because it's been such a stronghold for hundreds of years, it's been built like a stronghold. So it's not at the height of its prime anymore. Like it said, it's been weathered by time and ravaged by earthquakes, but this is still like gigantic. Three, a wall three miles wide along a river and mountains.

and up to 60 feet high. That's crazy. So, like you say, is basically have to gather and decide how the heck are we going to tackle this big boy. So, the first thing they rule out is like, okay, well, we can't do an all out attack. They didn't have the craftsmen who could assemble necessary things that would help out in an attack like this, like scaling ladders or movable towers. And frankly, they didn't know the situation they'd be walking into.

So they decided to take the crockpot approach, slow and low, also known as the partial blockade. basically, what they planned to do was they kind of segmented off their armies and they took up positions to block off as many of the gates as possible leading into the city. Their hope was to, basically it's a war of attrition. They want to cut off their supply to food, water, weapons, especially like reinforcements.

They just want to block out any input or output to the city to starve them out and eventually just force them to surrender. The problem, or maybe not the problem, but just an issue they're going to have is that sieges are not battles of brute force. It's a battle of discipline. It is going to take a lot of both physical and psychological endurance because

Even if you're the besieging party, you're also dependent on, you're also affected by that shortage of supplies. And if you don't have a good supply chain yourself to replenish what your armies need, you can be starving just as badly as the people inside the city. Tommy, did you want to add something? You look very inquisitive right now.

Tom Bombadil (23:03.732)
Nope, just enjoying the story.

Jim Salmon (23:07.231)
Alright, cool. So there were small scale skirmishes happening around the walls. So it's not like they didn't just get there and camp outside. were some, there was some fighting happening, but it was on pretty small scales. The big battle was the battle of waiting. I think it was Asbridge who also said that because it was a battle of morale, both sides kind of utilized

dirty tactics to try to demoralize their opponents, which they were both pretty pretty pretty lousy. What the Crusaders would do was after they would have like a small battle and kind of like, you know, account for their dead, the Turks would send people out from the city walls and they would bury their dead. you know, again, we talked about how the Seljuk Turks never really internalized like

A lot of Islam, it seemed like their conversion may have been more political than like deeply spiritual, but we do know that Islam values burial, like a prompt burial, as a very high thing for them. So what the Crusaders would do is they would just dig up the dead Turks and they would like cut their heads off and they would stick their heads on lances and kind of parade them around. And sometimes they would dig the bodies up, cut their heads off. lot of beheading in this story, so keep that in mind.

And then they would, yeah, they dig up a dead Turk, cut its head off and then throw the body off a cliff just to be like, hey, just to get at them. In response.

Tom Bombadil (24:38.302)
I can't remember if it was at Nicaea or Antioch, but I do know at one point they catapulted a bunch of Seljuk heads into the city like you see in The Lord of the Rings.

Jim Salmon (24:50.86)
Yeah.

Yeah, I read, I think... Tommy's like, yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (24:55.223)
The orcs that do that though, Tommy.

Tom Bombadil (24:57.862)
Yeah, like I said, like you see in the Lord of the Rings.

GOBBA GOOL (25:01.654)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (25:02.893)
I did, I think I read specifically a story that I think was Nicaea where the crusaders catapulted a guy and he didn't make it over the wall. he just like, just yeah, was awful. He was also not dead. He was a little live prisoner of war. Yeah.

Tom Bombadil (25:05.226)
Standard Siege Tactics.

Tom Bombadil (25:21.379)
man. If only they'd heard about the Geneva Convention. no!

GOBBA GOOL (25:22.841)
Can you imagine how awkward that is? Like, let us strike terror into them. And this guy's like, no. And then the captain's like, fire. And then they launch him and he just doesn't even clear the wall. the captain's like, come on, guys.

Jim Salmon (25:26.285)
No, man, gosh.

Tom Bombadil (25:32.316)
It's just like...

Tom Bombadil (25:37.034)
like omelet on the side of the wall.

Jim Salmon (25:39.157)
Yeah, just straight Wile E. Coyote.

Jim Salmon (25:46.729)
man, shoot, yeah, so yeah, some good, just some good, you know, little Bible study activities, just youth group stuff happening here. In response, the Turks had another problem, which was Antioch, as we know, has a historical population of Christians and has for a very, long time. And so they,

GOBBA GOOL (25:56.825)
my gosh.

Jim Salmon (26:13.011)
knowing that they're being besieged by Christians got super paranoid about the Christians who were in their city. It seemed like in some areas they would be like, all right, you guys need to leave. You can chill with the little army outside, assuming that you're like cool with them. After this is over, we'll welcome you back, but we can't really trust you not to betray us. In more severe cases, there are definitely stories of Turks just straight up slaughtering Christians. One is that they

kind of when they saw what was happening to the Turkish bodies outside the walls, they imprisoned and would basically beat the Antiochian archbishop. Like they beat him with rods and stuff like that. You know, I mean, it sucks because they have, there's a lot of opportunity to persecute and do awful things to Christians in a situation like that. And the Christians don't really have any way to defend themselves. So that really, really lousy.

Tom Bombadil (27:10.344)
I want to say I read there was some way that, I think it was in Antioch, when they eventually get in there's a way that the Christians identify themselves. I think it was by saying Kyrie Eleison in Greek, which helped the Crusaders know that they were Christians.

Jim Salmon (27:34.369)
I've got some very unfortunate news. We get to that part, but that is possible. Again, it's a big story. yeah, so the resulting months were honestly really, really awful. Like we said, this is a war of attrition. There was one letter, I think it was from that Stephen of Balaw, Balawaw guy. He wrote a letter to his wife. He was basically like, yeah, dude, they told us about these Syrian summers, but Syrian winters are awful.

It was cold and miserable. And when they were in the winter time, yeah, it was really, really hard. Estimates say that around that time, like one of five of the Crusaders were killed just from deprivation, just from exposure. So yeah, something that we're gonna say a lot of times in this episode is that morale was just down.

Everyone was kind of freaking out. And again, like they just had this awesome victory at Nicaea and they kind of assumed it was smooth sailing. Like I said, one dude was like, we got five weeks to Jerusalem, baby. We're going to be there. And then, you know, they're suddenly stuck outside the city and they are freaking out and they're starting to wonder like, has God abandoned us? Did we do something wrong? There's kind of conversations from some of the priestly leaders in their masses, like

you guys might be might be sinning and god needs you to clean that up i did read that they expelled the women from their camps because they they saw them as like attracting the the the wrath of god and in in their in their ordeals so yeah long slow brutal weight

GOBBA GOOL (29:12.441)
It's so hard. We really don't want to judge. We want to just be objective observers. But man, our siege are. Yeah, that's right. The siege isn't going well. Well, it's the women are sorry. Sorry. it is that women for. They must be expelled.

Jim Salmon (29:21.985)
We listen, we don't judge.

Jim Salmon (29:28.333)
you

GOBBA GOOL (29:38.553)
Like, couldn't be anything else.

Jim Salmon (29:42.123)
Yeah, it's not just warfare. It's not like war is sometimes slow and painful. But again, there's going to be a lot of this. And this is definitely not exclusive to Christians, but there's a lot of kind of pining for spiritual significance in what's going on. And that's going to bring them down, but it'll also bring them up pretty soon. But yeah, so slow, brutal weight. The months are moving by very, very slowly. The Crusaders.

GOBBA GOOL (30:09.911)
Why did they need Antioch?

Jim Salmon (30:13.523)
Ooh, that's a good question. I don't think they needed it. that is a really good question. Hold on.

Tom Bombadil (30:19.338)
From what the way I understand it like if you passed Antioch and didn't take it that's gonna pose a pretty significant strategic disadvantage to you having Antioch at your back being Muslim controlled Seljuk controlled So if you just like went around it I think that that would have been a really bad call for them to be Kind of trapped in between Muslim forces like you

they were kind of making a march down towards the Holy Land and this was a pretty big stronghold for the Seljuks so it needed to be cleared up first before they could move on. It also may have been like part of the deal you know like yes they're there to help the Byzantine Empire they really some of these guys really want to get to the Holy Land but there was that was one of the objectives was to

liberate Anatolia for the Byzantine Empire. it would have been kind of, I think probably dishonorable for them to have just bypassed it on the way to the...

Jim Salmon (31:31.351)
Yeah, I read... It seems like there's a little bit of controversy around whether they needed to take it or not. were some that was like, Antioch was on the main road to Jerusalem, so it just made sense, like it was on the way. But I think that there was probably some political pressuring from Alexios. Again, he's trying to use the Crusaders as mercenaries, and there's a lot of political, you know, currency.

in getting back Antioch. But I also think a part of it was, and this is kind of where we get into some of the political squabblings amongst the Crusader leaders, like Raymond of Toulouse and Boamon, is that it seemed clear that some of them wanted their own principality. Like they did not intend on returning these territories to the Byzantines, and that's going to become very clear pretty soon. they wanted to expand Latin territory, basically.

Tom Bombadil (32:24.948)
That's exactly right.

Tom Bombadil (32:29.182)
I think another aspect is like a supply chain thing where as they're moving through Christian lands, they're being supported by those lands. That's why they had to go on waves, you know, so that the countries they were going through could supply them on the way through. But once you're in enemy land, they're not bringing bread out to you in a basket. Like one way to supply your armies is by defeating cities along the way.

Jim Salmon (32:55.393)
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think they could have... I think you could make an argument that they didn't need Antioch on a military level because the biggest thing was the Byzantines had a massive navy and they had a lot of opportunity to resource them just through using the channels of water because that's what they're actually going to do throughout the Antiochian siege. So, but again, like it is not uncommon to, you know, conquer several places along the way to...

Tom Bombadil (33:23.678)
Yeah, that's a fascinating question, Taylor. It'd be fun to look into more.

Jim Salmon (33:25.117)
a big destination. Yeah, so again, long sluggish weight, they're fighting famine, they're fighting occasional Muslim reinforcements from small armies from places like, shoot, I was gonna say Jaffa, but that's definitely not right. Not Abu Dhabi, no. But they're fighting, yes, small Muslim reinforcements. There is an interesting, this is

GOBBA GOOL (33:43.213)
Abu, Abu, Abu Dhabi.

Dubai.

Jim Salmon (33:54.029)
I don't know, this feels like something that would happen in like an MCU movie. This is like a strange, like foreshadowing moment where they're going to interface with a small diplomatic group of the Fatimids, which is, if you remember, the Islamic dynasty that is not based in Baghdad, but is based in Egypt. And they who do not like the Seljuks, because the Seljuks are allied with the Abbasids who are their

Tom Bombadil (34:06.442)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (34:20.873)
mortal enemies because they're Sunni and Shia divided, they're going to interface with the Crusaders and basically just be like, we might be able to kind of work something out here.

GOBBA GOOL (34:32.377)
Dude, I would love to know what the Fatimid scholars thought about the Crusaders.

Jim Salmon (34:39.021)
I'm sure there's something out there, man. I'm sure there is

Tom Bombadil (34:40.874)
There's good primary sources on this. I'm bummed I forgot my book today. I read some of the quotes from it last week, we have, because Peter the hermit was part of these negotiations and so he recorded them and what you have basically is a big like misunderstanding between the Fatimids and the Crusaders where the Fatimids are like, well,

why are you doing this? And the Crusaders are like, you took our stuff. know, like it's a, it's an argument over just war theory really is what it is. And the Crusaders are saying they had a just war, but they didn't understand each other.

Jim Salmon (35:18.733)
Hmm.

Jim Salmon (35:24.605)
interesting. Yeah, my understanding was that they had kind of agreed. So it seems like the Fatimids were...

Tom Bombadil (35:31.774)
That may have been, I'll give a caveat really quick. That may have been a discussion between the Seljuks and the Crusaders, but from the way you're describing it from my memory, I think that that was the negotiations with the Fatimids.

Jim Salmon (35:45.889)
Yeah, my, my understanding is that the Fatimids, the conversation didn't go very far. It seems like the Fatimids were basically like, we could potentially offer you guys some support if you want to take Antioch because Antioch belongs to the Seljuks and we don't like the Seljuks. but they wanted to stipulate we are willing to potentially assist you if you skip over Palestine. and just leave that cause they were, cause the Fatimids were actually about to capitalize on the, the,

Tom Bombadil (36:03.4)
You can't come to Palestine.

Jim Salmon (36:16.253)
division in the Seljuk ranks and they're going to take Palestine, which includes Jerusalem, like the year before the Crusaders are going to get there. So they're kind of looking at how they can help each other by helping themselves, but you know the Crusaders are not going to agree to not take Palestine. That's the whole reason they're there. Exactly.

GOBBA GOOL (36:32.609)
Yeah, they all want Jerusalem. So OK, one more question. Where's the main Seljuk fighting force at this point? Is it over in Anatolia doing other stuff? Because I'm wondering, because why are they just letting the stinky white people sit outside Antioch for six months?

Jim Salmon (36:42.628)
that's a good question.

Tom Bombadil (36:54.186)
They're not. They keep coming with armies.

Jim Salmon (36:54.701)
Well, no, no, no, something is about something big is about to happen. Um, so yeah, I'll answer that because it's actually right next to my notes. So summer of 1099, they've been sieging for about seven months. The problem with reinforcements was that a lot of the Seljuks were fighting each other. And so the, like, I forget the names of the two cities, but there's basically two, uh, Anatolian cities that

GOBBA GOOL (37:04.172)
Okay.

Jim Salmon (37:21.973)
are close to Antioch and the reason they couldn't collaborate on their reinforcement to support Antioch was because they were beefing with each other. They were in a civil war at the time. So they were all frazzled. The problem was Baghdad is where the Abbasids are based and the Abbasids and the Seljuks are homies and Baghdad is about to send a massive freaking army to squash these Europeans. And so what's gonna happen is,

in like May of 1099, they've been sieging since October, they're gonna get news that a massive army of Iraqi warriors is basically headed to Antioch. And they're like, we're stuck here. A bunch of our people have died. We still can't break into the city. We're basically gonna get sandwiched. So they're like, we need to make a decision really freaking fast here. So they're like, all right, gotta figure something out. Then our boy.

boy of the hour, Boamond, is gonna be like, well, I mean, I might have an idea, but let's say I did. I mean, we can all agree, forget the Greeks, right? And everyone's like, yeah, forget the Greeks. And he's like, I just think that if one of us was to maybe have a really good idea and could take Antioch, then maybe that person should be like in the front running of maybe being a prince of this place. And everyone's like, yeah, that makes sense in theory. I think that's totally solid.

And then Bulamans, all right, cool. Cause I actually know this dude, his name's Feroz, good buddy of mine. He is a tower commander for the Muslims in Antioch and he is super down to betray the city. And that's what happens. And so at the drop of a hat, they basically plan out this covert mission where they equip Feroz and they probably send in some, I don't know, some double agents, crusader spies. I don't know.

GOBBA GOOL (39:00.558)
Wow.

GOBBA GOOL (39:09.753)
Dude, Boamond's a CIA asset handler.

Jim Salmon (39:13.093)
800 % dude. And this dude, Feroz, who I'm sure Thomas probably has some information on, I think he was either a Christian who converted to Islam or a Muslim who converted to Christianity.

Tom Bombadil (39:27.144)
He was a, I think he was a Christian who had converted to Islam, but he was, he was unhappy.

Jim Salmon (39:32.556)
Okay.

Unhappy. Yeah. Yeah, not not a fan of the new of the new CEO So yeah, he conspires and on the 2nd of june They launch a mission involving stealth and deceit and they're able to open a large gate from the inside In the middle of the night allowing the crusaders to just freaking Like storm the city and take it down This this to me I I know we're you know

lot of negativity. This to me is maybe the perfect encapsulation of what frustrates me about this whole this whole deal. In the ensuing mayhem as as so like you're like there's like Armenians and Greeks who are native Antiochians and they're like sick the Christians are here let's go and so some of them like join the fight and they're like we're gonna take down these Muslims they've been beaten the heck out of us this is awful and the crusaders are gonna go so crazy that they will kill some of the

GOBBA GOOL (40:20.329)
and then they get cut down.

Jim Salmon (40:32.663)
Christians not knowing that they're not Muslims There's an account a first-hand Latin account that says they were sparing no Muslim on the grounds of age or sex The ground was covered with blood and corpses and some of these corpses were Christian Greeks Syrians and Armenians no wonder since in the darkness they were entirely unaware of whom they should spare and whom they should strike so Gosh dang it once again

GOBBA GOOL (41:00.685)
Maybe you don't just slaughter civilians under the cover of night. Maybe that's just a good war practice.

Jim Salmon (41:07.925)
Yeah, I mean again, this is a privilege of hindsight that we have, but yeah, there's some downsides to slaughtering civilians. That's right.

GOBBA GOOL (41:15.501)
Yeah. I mean, look, remember the whole, we listen and we don't judge. We like, we can judge a little bit, but also I hate to say it everybody, but this was just kind of how it worked back then. If you took a city, everybody went in and just went buck wild. I'm not saying it's good. I'm just saying that's how they did it.

Jim Salmon (41:30.721)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (41:39.757)
Well, because there's a lot of looting that happens too, because you got to remember, like, the more materially minded of the Crusaders, and this is the case of every army, when you think of sieging a city, the first thing you want to do is take stuff. And I'm not saying that to be like, they're a bunch of thieves. Like, no, like that is part of like you establishing your livelihood. Like it's about what you can pillage. And so pillaging a city that your army has just conquered was very much commonplace.

gets quite sanctified, but you know again we listen we don't judge. All right moving on. One day after the city is taken, one day the giant freaking Muslim reinforcement army arrives. And so this is like incredibly disappointing.

GOBBA GOOL (42:23.447)
No way.

Jim Salmon (42:29.099)
Because they took the city and they're like, this is amazing, this is great, God is with us, hurrah hurrah. But the problem is they've been sieging this city for seven months now. So it doesn't have any supplies. They've already worked through all their food and all their stuff. And so they conquered this city, but they're like slightly better than they were before. And as soon as the conquering army gets there, they're just like, sweet. They're like skin and bones in there. We're going to take our time.

And so the general of this army, gosh dang, what was his name? His name is Kerboga, which is a gnarly name. He takes it real slow. He stations his like main command center, like a few miles outside of the city, just so they can get like a nice, everything that the Crusaders couldn't do. The Crusaders can only do a partial, like kind of encircling siege.

These guys, they did everything. They did everything nice and slow. They had the power, the manpower, all that jazz. So a question you might be asking, which is a very reasonable question, what the heck happened to the Greeks? This is a great story and unfortunately a very disappointing story for our soft-hearted ecumenical listeners. So one day before the city fell, Count Stephen of Blois,

is gonna lead a troop of deserters and again, like not only are they like skin and bones at this point, but they also believe that they know that army is like days away from getting there. So they're like, all right, we're done. He's like, I'm not gonna let my men be slaughtered here. We're gonna head back. And so on his way back to Constantinople, Count Stephen and his men are going to run into the Emperor Alexios.

and own personal army who was charging in as reinforcements and he's basically like bro I'll be honest yeah like he's like by the time you get there they're gonna be dead you're gonna lose people it's a lost cause don't even bother and so Alexios is like remember Alexios like he's a politician man like he's thinking like well shoot like I really wanted to get Antioch back but

Tom Bombadil (44:26.026)
They're good as dead.

GOBBA GOOL (44:33.465)
Jim Salmon (44:44.917)
It seems like it's a lost cause and maybe we could help him out, but it seems like it's not really worth it. And so he kind of weighs his own goals and he's like, we'll pull back. No big deal. Turn it around boys. Let's get out of here. The problem is that when word of this is going to get back to the crusaders, the crusaders just go live it. And they're just like those filthy freaking Greeks. They betrayed us. They said they were going to help us out and they didn't. And

GOBBA GOOL (44:54.413)
Turn it around, boys. no.

Tom Bombadil (45:04.81)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (45:12.845)
Yeah, they're a bunch of punks and we've already talked about the West thinks the East's a bunch of hoity-toity snobs and the East thinks the West are a bunch of smelly Europeans. They already don't like each other and now they super don't like each other. Interesting thing is one of my historian friends that I've been reading through, Mr. Christopher Tyerman said,

that it actually is a bit of an exaggeration to say that the Greeks had abandoned the Crusaders because, like we said, the aforementioned Byzantine Navy had been providing constant support to the siege at Antioch, just not with a lot of military manpower. So would this have been a game changer? Absolutely. But had the Greeks been like totally abandoning the West? Not necessarily. But the optics looked real bad and this was going to do a ton of damage to the Greek.

GOBBA GOOL (45:58.819)
Dude.

Tom Bombadil (45:59.818)
especially when you're pinned, yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (46:01.891)
Tommy, it's like a, Tommy, it's like a, was Byzantium when Antioch fell?

Tom Bombadil (46:06.76)
Yeah, yeah.

Jim Salmon (46:06.829)
Dude, that's this is like like literally the books that I've read have said like when Constantinople is sacked like Generations from now. This is the kind of thing that's gonna go down like this is gonna go into their brains as like when our men were like Fighting tooth and nail the Greeks bailed on us. So it's a big deal All right, so back inside Antioch

Tom Bombadil (46:31.689)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (46:36.461)
gosh, once again, they're in places of dire dire straights. They're in absolute despair. They're like, we're going to die. We are going to lose. This is awful. And then something happens that could only encourage the heart of a, of a true 11th or 12th century European, which is supernatural occurrences. I think on the 14th day of June, they see a shooting star appear over their camp and it kind of descends over where the,

over where the Muslims are at. And they're like, whoa, maybe that's God being like, I'm gonna drop some stars on these guys. Okay, cool. There's another incident where a guy named Stephen of Valence, while praying in the church of the Virgin Mary, experienced a vision of Christ where Jesus tells him that in five days, he's going to provide the, like basically what they need to assist them. And then in a way that could not be,

like exaggerated, like this young peasant French kid by the name of, gosh dang it, Peter Bartholomew is gonna say around that same time that Stephen has these visions, he's gonna say that he saw visions of St. Andrew where St. Andrew had said that he needs the people, that he needs the crusaders to be practicing their penance because there is a holy object.

that they will be able to find in five days. And if they find it, it will certainly lead them to victory. So five days later, these dudes are looking around and they're like, all right, let's look in the cathedral of St. Peter. And they're digging around for stuff and they find this like shard of steel. And they're like, this is it. This is the Holy Lance that pierced Christ's side.

GOBBA GOOL (48:11.809)
for

GOBBA GOOL (48:32.173)
Dude, with that vague of instructions, they would have found anything and been like, this is it!

Jim Salmon (48:36.397)
I think that's the argument that a lot of historians make.

GOBBA GOOL (48:42.477)
This is the broken piece of pottery that Mary used to feed baby Jesus.

Jim Salmon (48:49.933)
This is the glass from the perfume flask that was broken over the feet of Jesus. Yeah, they were going to find something. Um, but yeah, they found this, but they, but it, it cannot be understated that this was a absolute 180 for the crusaders who were suddenly like, God is with us. Like God is with us and we are doing his will. He has not abandoned us and

GOBBA GOOL (48:54.967)
Right. Right.

Tom Bombadil (49:10.76)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (49:16.983)
we're gonna freaking, we're gonna rip it right now. Like we're just gonna go for it.

GOBBA GOOL (49:19.321)
Yeah, they found a shard of steel. Sorry, I'm being snooty. We listen and we don't judge. But man.

Jim Salmon (49:24.205)
Whatever it was.

We listen and we don't judge, that's right. All right. So 24th of June, we're very close to the end. They're still on the brink of collapse. They're gonna send two envoys out to speak to the commander of the Muslim army. They're gonna send an Eastern Christian, because they think, all right, this guy plays no sides. He's not a Westerner like us. He's not a Muslim like them. He comes and he says,

We're not in a good place. We've been dealing with famine and all that junk. You guys, you look happy. You look healthy. Let's just arrange a little agreement. You guys retake the city. We'll hold the door open for you. And then you guys just let us pass through. No hostility, no fighting. We're good. And the general kerboga is basically like, if you guys want to leave the city, you're going to have to fight your way out.

And so the Christians are like, all right, they're basically preparing for what they assume is going to be a suicide mission. They're like, we're just gonna, we're gonna leave. We're going to charge these freaking Muslim dudes. And if God kills us, well, at least we'll go to heaven because we're fighting a war. So they're just ready to, ready to do it. And what's amazing is a combination of their like,

Mario like sparkling mushroom superpowers of like intensity because they found the Holy Lance and Everything else they're gonna charge and have all the zeal and passion in the world But the biggest thing that's gonna happen is that Kerboga the general is gonna make the dumbest mistake he could Which is that because his army is positioned so far back All he needs to do is wait for the Crusaders to advance forward enough

GOBBA GOOL (51:02.802)
dude.

Jim Salmon (51:17.973)
so that they can counter and be as effective as possible. But what happens is, as he's watching, he recognizes that the Crusaders are starting to gain some momentum. And so he rushes the main army out to meet them when they're unprepared and kind of flustered. And the Crusaders just mow right through him. And they lost their nerve. They've got Jesus and the Holy Lance. They're stories of like the saints running with them.

GOBBA GOOL (51:38.067)
Yeeeeaaaah!

Jim Salmon (51:47.629)
Like, I'm 100 % there. This is like some Infinity War. Like, there's visions of like St. George and like the warrior saints just like, oh, Fernania! And yeah, and they defeat the army.

GOBBA GOOL (51:47.767)
Are you serious? Dude, this is sick.

Tom Bombadil (52:02.942)
This seems to be a common theme in these battles that they keep having is that the Seljuks, for as crazy as they were, these dudes from Western Europe were crazier. And they just did stuff that surprised them, like running out of the city. You don't really do that when you're besieged by massive army and starving and having fasted for five days. They just launched out of there and totally caught them off guard.

Jim Salmon (52:19.415)
Yeah, yeah.

Jim Salmon (52:31.565)
Yeah, I mean, they literally tried to negotiate surrender. Like they were basically like, if you don't kill us, we'll let you have your stuff back. And yeah, this was like the definition of a last ditch effort. And they, yeah, it was a remarkable, crazy victory.

GOBBA GOOL (52:48.249)
Dude, this is like in the horn of Helm's Deep, Tommy. When they're like the dawn's about to happen, they don't know Gandalf's right over the hill.

Jim Salmon (52:52.621)
you

Tom Bombadil (52:53.45)
Yeah, buddy.

Tom Bombadil (52:57.214)
Yeah, Gandalf in this case left and went back to Constantinople.

GOBBA GOOL (53:00.249)
Dude, how many did?

Jim Salmon (53:00.502)
Yeah

I was gonna say, is Gandalf the lance? Because that's possible. Gandalf is that shard of metal.

Tom Bombadil (53:05.77)
You

GOBBA GOOL (53:06.242)
No, no.

Lance, the Lance is the shard of Narsil.

Jim Salmon (53:11.198)
okay okay alright last little thing i'll share and no we're probably overall fifty three minutes okay thought we were longer

GOBBA GOOL (53:19.777)
No, so they mow through them and then what? Like they just wipe out that army because they all get shattered and scattered? No way.

Jim Salmon (53:28.109)
Pretty much, yeah. The Muslim army got kind of flustered and I don't know if they retreated or if the Crusaders just mowed through. I mean, like, it's literally crazy. They were so outmanned. I don't have the numbers, but they were... Yeah, they had lost a massive portion of their army at this point. So, yeah. A little epilogue is that, again, we... One of the issues is that there's gonna be this kind of awkward delay.

before the Crusaders leave Antioch because they're going to argue about what to do with the city. Because Raymond, Raymond of Toulouse is another one of the big time kind of counts. he's like, I mean, I've been kind of, I've been kind of feeling maybe leading this place. I don't know about you guys. I've been thinking about it, but we all know Boamond is kind of already been, you know, been that been the head honcho. He's kind of our, I, I was the one that got the, got the, got the mole in there.

And so there's this weird like popularity contest thing that is just so strange but needs to be mentioned that so Raymond and Beaumont, they've already agreed, forget the Greeks. We're not giving this place back to the Byzantines. This is our place now. So they're basically just arguing about who gets to take it over and who gets to stay and who has to lead the Crusaders to Jerusalem. Raymond and Beaumont really want to stay and take it over.

Raymond decides, he's like, well, I'm not as popular as Boba Mon, so what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna kind of like hitch my wagon to this guy, Peter Bartholomew. He's the weird peasant kid who found the Holy Lands. The problem with Peter Bartholomew is like, he's like constantly having these like weird ecstatic visions and his visions seem to be getting like a little bit more and more unhinged to the points where people aren't really like buying what he's saying.

GOBBA GOOL (55:14.233)
Great.

Jim Salmon (55:23.595)
And so they suggest, which very logical, I guess this was a fairly common medieval practice, which is a literal trial by fire, which is basically, if God is with you, then you can walk through these flames and come out untouched. And so the idea was, well, Peter's making all these claims about having visions of the saints and of Jesus and of this Holy Lands, but now we think he might be a little crazy. So we're going to make him walk through these flames.

And there are two stories about what happens when Peter walks through the flames. One is that he walked through the flames, untouched, and then an angry mob attacked him and killed him. The other, can you guess, Taylor?

GOBBA GOOL (56:11.821)
He just walked in and got engulfed.

Jim Salmon (56:14.611)
that he just burns to death. So depending on who you listen to I guess but the problem the lasting legacy for this is that this kind of tanked Raymond of Toulouse's reputation and so he was like all right I guess Beaumont can be the prince.

Tom Bombadil (56:18.09)
oof

Tom Bombadil (56:30.558)
Hmm I mean kind of kind of biblically Intune one of your fans is like super loud all of sudden, but kind of biblically in tune in that the I'm not sure If you have a false prophet amongst you Deuteronomy says to put him to death So they may have had that in mind where it's like dude you keep like having these visions So why don't we just see if you can go through the fire see how that goes?

GOBBA GOOL (56:42.989)
Mine.

Jim Salmon (56:58.957)
Yeah, they, I think it would have been cool to have a little bit more developed theology of discerning that stuff. But, yeah, I don't know. That's kind of like the whole, like, if she's a witch, she floats. If she's not, she sinks. Like it's gotta got that. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (57:13.465)
Yeah. What else? What was it? way when Monty Python just shouts out or not Monty Python, King Arthur shouts out a duck.

Jim Salmon (57:24.845)
She turned me into a goose. A newt. that's right. That's right. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (57:28.109)
newt. Yeah. Dude, I think this whole thing begs the question. Was God on their side? And I have a really hard time at this point looking at all the evidence. Despite everything, the little piece of metal they found that's the Holy Lance, like despite the massacring of the civilians. I'm like, maybe God really was on their side for this kid.

Tom Bombadil (57:56.224)
yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (57:57.113)
Because that is what a wild turn of events to still have victory.

Jim Salmon (58:04.418)
Look, like, I think it's a dangerous precedent to look at results and say that that's a sign that like God was on. Cause we, we live in a world of like statistics and numbers and stuff like that. Like the random things happen all the time. I don't think they're always a sign that God is like in favor of something. I think if we apply that metric, then there's a lot of really uncanny things that suddenly become,

you know, ordained. So I don't know.

Tom Bombadil (58:35.284)
So we can put you down for John says God was not on the side of the Crusader.

Jim Salmon (58:42.069)
I don't think he was on anyone's side here, dog.

GOBBA GOOL (58:43.673)
I think the Lord works through very imperfect people all the time. I think it's, since we're closing, we don't have time to get into a debate. I'll just throw out like, it's probably good that the Ayatollah is getting overthrown. Does that mean that the United States is always the good guy? No.

Jim Salmon (59:05.697)
Of not. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (59:08.577)
You know, did sinful people fire those missiles? And there's probably people with bad motives involved in that. Yes, but at the end of the day, maybe we'll see a healthier government in place that leads to more human flourishing for the Iranians.

Jim Salmon (59:25.973)
Yeah, I mean, I agree with all of that. Like I, I think I'm, I'm wrestling with the, the, the black and white idea that like God is on one team side and not on another team side. I mean, I definitely don't think he's on the Muslim side, but I also don't know if he's on the side of Christians who are doing a lot of very seemingly non-Christ like things.

GOBBA GOOL (59:28.323)
Yeah.

Tom Bombadil (59:38.674)
I know he's not on the Muslim side.

GOBBA GOOL (59:53.047)
Yeah, well, obviously they didn't keep Jerusalem. It's not like this is the story about how the Middle East became a Christian, you know, place of prosperity. So.

Jim Salmon (01:00:04.321)
Well, that's what I'm saying. Like the Crusades, by and large, aside from the first Crusade, are like massive failures. So like, if we're saying that God's on their side because they want Antioch, well then why did he bail for the next four Crusades?

GOBBA GOOL (01:00:20.717)
Well, I don't know. See, that's where it gets confusing. I'm just saying this turn of events is so wild that I don't know, man. The Lord obviously wanted him to have Antioch.

Jim Salmon (01:00:34.803)
because I mean, God wants them to lose it pretty soon too, because I don't know. this is where I just don't... I mean, this is like a bigger question. This is like, you know, God's involvement with Providence and, you know, what's he pushing, what's he pulling on? Like, that just seems kind of messy because I... we could say that everything that happens is what God wants to happen, but I don't know. Does God want Jerusalem to be sacked? And I don't know. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (01:00:46.413)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (01:00:56.065)
Yeah, so you're right. There's a lot of nuance required, but I'm just...

Jim Salmon (01:01:02.251)
I do think God wants good things. think God wants justice to be done. I also think that the justice that we're seeing here is at best imperfect. so I don't know. Yeah. Well, thanks, man. That was fun. That was a, that was a, that was a lot. next week we're going to have Taylor leading us through, the siege of Jerusalem, which is another big boy. and then we'll.

GOBBA GOOL (01:01:10.605)
Yeah. Yeah.

Good storytelling there.

GOBBA GOOL (01:01:25.175)
That's right.

That was like some 300 stuff.

Jim Salmon (01:01:31.797)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so that'll be good.

Tom Bombadil (01:01:32.489)
Big time.

GOBBA GOOL (01:01:34.635)
And once again, we'll have to ask the question. Is Scott on their side?

Jim Salmon (01:01:40.897)
We might just need to dedicate a whole episode to just like, let's just do like a reflecting on the first crusade episode or something like that.

GOBBA GOOL (01:01:47.659)
Is your wife playing with the lamp?

Jim Salmon (01:01:52.086)
Mine?

GOBBA GOOL (01:01:52.279)
There's like a hand going behind your... it's your hand? you were making like shadow puppets behind you.

Jim Salmon (01:01:55.245)
It's mine. It's my hand. yeah, it's me. No, sorry.

Tom Bombadil (01:01:59.626)
Taylor's like, this is gonna be bad news, dude. Please tell me that Annie's messing with

Jim Salmon (01:02:04.109)
There is a, there's an evil spirit in this room with me.

GOBBA GOOL (01:02:04.309)
Yeah.

Yeah, no, it's his own spirit. Well, yep. So yeah, next week we'll have that. And then, guys, throw in your comments what topic you'd love for us to hit. We could do a mini series, like two, three weeks tops. Yeah? Yeah, boys?

Jim Salmon (01:02:12.299)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (01:02:26.197)
Yeah, or we can do some scatterbrain stuff too, whatever other people want.

GOBBA GOOL (01:02:29.443)
Yep. If you don't, you're just going to get random Baptist things from Taylor.

Jim Salmon (01:02:33.997)
That's right, nobody wants that. Yeah, don't know. Alright guys, thanks for listening. This was a lot of fun. We'll be back real soon with some more good stuff. Talk to you later.

Tom Bombadil (01:02:35.731)
Vote now!

GOBBA GOOL (01:02:36.789)
That's right.

GOBBA GOOL (01:02:45.133)
Bye bye!

Tom Bombadil (01:02:47.314)
Thank