120. The Crusades Begin...The Promised Land Awaits

It's been several years since Pope Urban's call to arms in 1095. Many of the crusaders are worn out and exhausted. For years they have endured famine, starvation, and widespread loss of life. Yet, the Promised Land is on the horizon. Jerusalem awaits. 

Join the gang as we dive into the great climax of the First Crusade, the arrival at the object of every Frank's eyes, the Holy City of the Levant. 

Also...why IS Coke Zero so much better than Diet Coke? Does anyone have a reason? We really don't know. Huh. 

Buy us a coffee: https://buymeacoffee.com/chumphistory

Transcript

Jim Salmon (00:00.418)
Hey everybody, welcome to Church History for Chumps, my name is John Simon, I'm here with Taylor, the Tool Man Taylor.

GOBBA GOOL (00:09.368)
Taylor, the tool man Taylor. I don't know. Why'd you hit record while I was still finishing my bread?

Jim Salmon (00:10.924)
Yeah!

Jim Salmon (00:15.808)
I don't know. figured, mean, we're, we're, one of those podcasts where we're not trying to make things look glossy, right? Like we're just, we're just, we're just what we are. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (00:24.91)
That's true. And I'm a boy. I'm a Baptist boy eating bread, balded beard and beautiful.

Jim Salmon (00:29.622)
chocolate bread.

Jim Salmon (00:34.472)
Are you on keto? No, you're obviously on keto. You're you're scarfing down bread. What's your what's how are your how are your new year's goals going, bro? That's what I want to talk about.

GOBBA GOOL (00:37.024)
No, remember, I can't

GOBBA GOOL (00:42.7)
I don't believe in New Year's resolutions.

Jim Salmon (00:45.506)
Okay, how are your just life resolutions going? That's good!

GOBBA GOOL (00:48.608)
They're going great. I so I was doing really good with eating and then I had like a bad I'm like kind of okay today. Today I'm okay. Today's a good day.

Jim Salmon (00:55.22)
huh.

Jim Salmon (01:01.41)
I feel like I put you on the spot. didn't mean to put you out there chocolate handed for all of our listeners to hear. I'm sorry. See, and I'm drinking one too. It's a Coke Zero vanilla and it's, gosh dang it, it's the delight of my life, dude.

GOBBA GOOL (01:09.036)
Yeah, you did. hit record. But look, I'm drinking a Diet Coke.

GOBBA GOOL (01:17.996)
Now, ooh.

Okay, Coke Zero is so much better than Diet Coke and I'm tired of pretending it's not.

Jim Salmon (01:26.942)
I don't know how it happened. Like it's like, it's like they made Diet Coke for so long and then they just found a different formula that did the same thing. And they're like, we're just going to make both now. I-

GOBBA GOOL (01:36.588)
But better. Yeah, because so what I have found is actually, we need, listen, listeners, the women folk need to chime in. Do you guys prefer Diet Coke over Coke Zero?

Jim Salmon (01:42.859)
Okay.

Jim Salmon (01:52.086)
You think it's a gender thing? Like men like Coke Zero and women like Diet Coke?

GOBBA GOOL (01:53.92)
I do, I do.

Yeah, I've noticed this at my office. It's like split. And it's strong opinions.

Jim Salmon (02:01.249)
That's interesting.

Every guy I talk to is like really strongly for Coke Zero over Diet Coke. Yeah, maybe I just don't talk to that many women anymore. Maybe just, you I'm not a flirty little guy like gossip like I used to be. hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (02:11.638)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (02:19.203)
Well.

Well, the women that you interact with in your job are like grieving and or dying. So you're not going to be like, hey, so.

Jim Salmon (02:29.078)
Hey Martha, so how's the COPD today? Yeah? Hey question for you. Actually, I think a lot of these ladies would love to, one thing I've noticed, older women seem to like Pepsi a lot more than I thought. I would have thought Coke is classic, so like the older generation loves Coke. I think older people seem to like Pepsi a lot more. And I don't really understand that.

GOBBA GOOL (02:35.256)
question for you. Diet Coke.

GOBBA GOOL (02:45.954)
Really?

GOBBA GOOL (02:54.08)
I don't... I don't get it. I don't...

Jim Salmon (02:55.943)
I Pepsi is like a bottom tier soda, dude. Like I really don't like Pepsi very much.

GOBBA GOOL (03:02.23)
I think anecdotal evidence is dangerous. Who knows? Who knows? Who knows? Maybe peps. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know, bro. But yeah. Yeah. I went to Topgolf today with my father-in-law and mother-in-law. Brandy didn't come. So they took the favorite.

Jim Salmon (03:06.398)
Okay, alright, I'm not writing a paper on it, okay? I'm not trying to get published. The elderly and their pop consumption.

Yeah.

Jim Salmon (03:23.912)
That's kind of fun. okay. How have you been to Topgolf before?

GOBBA GOOL (03:32.127)
yeah, my family, the family goes there all the time.

Jim Salmon (03:34.74)
and you're like a budding golfer. This was probably like a fun time for you. Gosh dang it. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (03:40.079)
yeah. I'm OK. I had a bad night tonight, but you know, not every time you step on the green, can you? Yeah. Bat bat 100. Yeah.

Jim Salmon (03:49.773)
Can you? That's as they say, as they say. man. Well, hey, we got to give a special shout out. you know, hey, we, asked and you guys answered, bro. Like we, we, we've been talking about like what you guys would like to hear us talk about as we kind of take a break from first crusade into the second crusade. And you guys give us some awesome.

awesome suggestion so you know Cathars crusade yeah for for those of you guys who have talked about kind of like the epilogue crusade stories please just note we fully intend on getting into those so like the Cathars crusade the crusade against the what is it the alba alba gensians or the anthusians i'm getting them mixed up i i really only know church history when it's 10 minutes before i'm doing an episode on that topic

But yeah, the Carmelites and we got one recommendation about doing essentially a Catholic order that was established by kind of the remnants of crusaders that fed into a lot of the mysticism of the kind of like the counter-reformation of the 16th century trust. We will be covering those. Those sound like awesome topics.

GOBBA GOOL (05:10.432)
Yeah, also trust. Who is it that said Jan Hus? He's coming. what should we give him? Jan. OK, it's we're in America.

Jim Salmon (05:15.412)
Yawn, yawn brother, yawn. It's not Jan- it's- he's not- it's not a 55 year old blonde woman.

GOBBA GOOL (05:22.806)
Okay, do you say you so you soos Christus?

Jim Salmon (05:27.134)
It's just, just, just respect the Jan, brother, come on. Jan, Jan Hoss. Jan Hoss is coming.

GOBBA GOOL (05:30.862)
OK. Jan Hus is coming. Let's give him the roadmap a little bit. So after we finish the Third Crusade 17 years from now, what we're thinking is a pre-Reformation set.

Jim Salmon (05:39.22)
Okay, yeah.

Jim Salmon (05:43.746)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (05:52.055)
Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on. We're gonna get further into the Crusades than that, right? We'll probably do, think each, well, cause there's like six or seven Crusades total. I could imagine, I could see us doing an episode that's kind of a flyover of some of the latter stuff. Cause they're not as relevant and they're not really as impactful. So I could imagine we'll probably do less, less detail.

GOBBA GOOL (05:58.209)
of the fourth crusade.

GOBBA GOOL (06:11.586)
Well, yeah, because technically, don't the Crusades go to the 15th century? Yeah, sure. OK, yeah. Well, we'll do that. We'll get you guys caught up, and then we'll do pre-Rite with Breaks. And we're going to do pre-Reformation. And so that's going to cover the Hussites.

Jim Salmon (06:18.689)
Yeah!

Jim Salmon (06:23.616)
Yeah. With breaks. With breaks.

Jim Salmon (06:36.524)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (06:38.74)
any of the Waldenzians.

Jim Salmon (06:40.928)
What if we said it was pre-reformation, but we just started back over with the early church? Cause that is technically the pre- That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I gotta wash my hands a little bit.

GOBBA GOOL (06:46.894)
Just like a good way to reset. We do a soft reset. Yeah. Yeah. And then I think we'll do a nice long reference. So we'll do a pre-Reformation series. And then we're going to do a nice long Reformation series where we'll get into all the players. Because I think a lot of people really only know like Calvin Luther and Zwing Lee. Those are like, that's like the big three.

Jim Salmon (07:02.933)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (07:11.062)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (07:14.018)
There's so many more characters and interesting things to get into.

Jim Salmon (07:16.096)
Yeah. Yeah. And then, one of my, one of the things that captivates me is the aftermath of the reformation. Cause I think a lot of us kind of think like, yeah, like, you know, the Lutherans did their own thing and everyone lived happily ever after and all was well. And there definitely wasn't decades of warfare and not to say again, like this is, yeah. Decades was generous.

GOBBA GOOL (07:31.51)
And all was well, we're right. Yeah.

Not decades, centuries. Oliver Cromwell, hold my beer.

Jim Salmon (07:43.573)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, the ramifications on a political, social, cultural level are very, very, very big to be felt today, especially if you go somewhere like Ireland. mean, we did that episode with the host of the Troubles podcast. Dude, that would have been a great podcast for you to be on. If only I could turn back time, Taylor.

GOBBA GOOL (08:02.688)
If I could turn back time

Jim Salmon (08:05.026)
I will say though, one of our listeners, dude who's commented for quite a while, John Harmson, great guy. Nothing harming me in his comments. I'm trying to be witty, but that wasn't very good. But he suggested that we do a Chump Talk episode where we talk about all of our theological molehills. And that sounds really exciting. Where we basically say like, this is the one thing that we value probably more than we should, but then we argue about why everyone should value it as much as we do. That sounds like fun.

GOBBA GOOL (08:35.67)
I feel like if I did that, would, I need to come up with something like more fun than my actual hill to die on congregationalism.

Jim Salmon (08:43.222)
What would yours be?

Jim Salmon (08:47.98)
like to replace an elder polity or just like a soft congregationalism?

GOBBA GOOL (08:54.442)
No, no, and even more than I think about it, because like Presbyterians are congregationalists-ish. No, no, sorry, sorry. The Puritans were congregational. Yeah, no, no, I'm just saying, sorry. Sorry, I have a strong, I want to, yeah, congregationalism. Anyway, what? No, no, no, no, We got to, listen, we're getting way ahead of ourselves. Point is, thank you guys for all your suggestions. You can throw in some more suggestions this episode.

Jim Salmon (08:59.857)
ish.

Jim Salmon (09:04.226)
Right. I mean, I don't know.

Jim Salmon (09:13.002)
Yeah. Getting ahead of ourselves. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (09:24.014)
I think for the most part, we're going to cover everything that you guys asked for eventually. And some will be sooner than later. Random Baptist things are coming in the break.

Jim Salmon (09:31.884)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (09:36.63)
Yep, fifth week of March. Fifth week of March, yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (09:40.335)
What? The fifth? Oh, I get it. On March 32. Oh, wait. Yeah, yeah. But anyway, good suggestions are coming. Yeah, we'll keep it up. So good job. You guys keep it up. Keep telling your friends. Keep commenting on socials. Dude, did you see that the Facebook page gets like 50 new views a week?

Jim Salmon (09:46.818)
March 30, yeah, 33rd actually. We had something on the 32nd, yeah.

Jim Salmon (09:56.898)
That's right.

Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (10:07.01)
I don't look at the Facebook page right now, man. I'm fasting from social media. It just feels like a very millennial kind of Lenten practice, but it's been good for me, dude. It's been nice. Yeah. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (10:09.166)
Yeah.

that's

GOBBA GOOL (10:18.23)
good. You could have done that without, you know, Papus dogma.

Jim Salmon (10:22.954)
Papist dogma. think the church practiced- this is the problem. This is the problem whenever Protestants talk smack about Catholic stuff is at a certain point they're just making fun of themselves because remember, there is no church without the Western Church. There's no Western Church without the Catholic Church. you know, it's just Spider-Man being like, hey nice mask dummy. That's what you're doing. Yeah. That's okay. I'm not upset.

GOBBA GOOL (10:31.47)
I know.

GOBBA GOOL (10:39.127)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (10:42.888)
I know. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Catholics. So anyway, well, anything else?

Jim Salmon (10:52.63)
Tommy's not here, which is tough. Yeah, I missed out on Tommy today. But you know, like we said, busy guy, he's pastor, father, husband. I just sound like I'm reading someone's Twitter bio. Pastor, father, husband, Christian.

GOBBA GOOL (10:54.68)
Wait, it's very tough.

GOBBA GOOL (11:01.954)
Re- Realtor?

Yeah. Well, got to put Christian first and then husband. Yeah. yeah.

Jim Salmon (11:11.451)
That's right, American flag emoji. But no, he's all those things and he wasn't able to make it today. So we all miss him. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (11:19.234)
Right, right. Pour one out. Pour a Zen out for Tommy. That's right. Dare you to make a mess in your office.

Jim Salmon (11:23.604)
or Coke Zero. But yeah, we're as you guys know, we're continuing our series on the Crusades. Last week we had a riveting, riveting episode on the siege of and what can't I call my episode riveting?

GOBBA GOOL (11:38.776)
Yes, I'll allow it.

Jim Salmon (11:40.515)
We had an excellent, one of our best episodes I would say on the Siege of Antioch, which is, we're really starting to see just what the Crusaders are capable of. Of course they get the rap of being rambunctious, kind of rapscallions, but now we're finally seeing, we're seeing a little bit of competency, we're seeing some discipline, but more than that, we're seeing the winds change in these directions where we're like, holy crap, it seems like some.

some wild things are happening here. We had the Holy Lance, which was supposedly the spear that pierced Christ's side, that lifted the Crusaders' morale and helped them to victory. They had all these like, the skin of their teeth, wins. And now they're headed to the, you know, the apple of the Crusaders' eye. They're headed off to Jerusalem. And this is the high point, Yerushalayim, that's right.

GOBBA GOOL (12:17.996)
That's right.

GOBBA GOOL (12:29.292)
Jerusalem.

Jim Salmon (12:32.832)
This is the high point of the first crusade, the object of every crusader's eye, and Taylor's gonna lead us through it.

GOBBA GOOL (12:40.642)
That's right. Well, here's your cold open. Jamie, play the music.

GOBBA GOOL (12:48.254)
Antioch has fallen and the Crusaders prepare to march onward to their main goal, the Holy City. For the Crusaders left standing, they await reinforcements. Their horses died long ago, as many of their men. Whether the elements sickness or a Turkish scimitar claim their life, it matters not. They're down in fighting power.

War is never easy, but compared to the catastrophic failure of the People's Crusade, whatever victory they've been able to achieve looks like a roaring success. The Crusaders leaders fight over who will reign in Antioch. Alexios is silent. What hope do the Crusaders have?

Jim Salmon (13:26.53)
Hmm, it's a good one. I like it.

GOBBA GOOL (13:30.12)
So yeah, so we're going to talk about the march. And the march to Jerusalem is kind of boring. There's a few things we'll hit on that. Then we're going to talk about the siege of Jerusalem. And then we're going to talk from some primary sources. So next week in this episode, we'll do the adventures of the crusaders in Jerusalem. But yeah, I think we'll get into a little bit of the looting.

that happened. We'll get into a little bit of like post-success, I know. Yeah, well, that's right. So our primary source is for the evening or the morning, whenever you're listening, is Gesta Francorum, or the Deeds of the Franks, who was authored anonymously, believed to be a de-mounted knight serving Boamund. Some also believe the author was a cleric.

Jim Salmon (14:02.978)
This is lot of looting, yeah? They had to get their money's worth.

GOBBA GOOL (14:28.494)
And most scholars believe that the source was written by a single author. Also, we will be reading Fulcher, Fulcher de Chartres. I didn't know I had to Google how to pronounce that one.

Jim Salmon (14:44.416)
and that's what you came up with?

GOBBA GOOL (14:46.552)
Fulcher de Chartres. Fulcher. Chartras. I don't know, dude. I just throw on the French. Fulcher de Chartras!

Jim Salmon (14:51.202)
Well, no, if you just went for it that was fine, but you were like I had to look up how to pronounce it and I don't think you pronounced it right

GOBBA GOOL (15:01.068)
that's that's what we that's where we got buddy. No Google was like, Fulcher rhymes with butcher. And I'm like, I don't. Yeah, Fulcher. So we're gonna say Fulcher. And he was actually Baldwin's chaplain. Remember, first Baldwin not bald, not Edward Norton.

Jim Salmon (15:08.35)
Okay, alright, that's something. Yeah.

Jim Salmon (15:20.386)
Yeah, because there's like six bald ones in the Crusades, right?

GOBBA GOOL (15:23.148)
Yeah, well, this guy's the first one. And Fulcher was his chaplain. So we're going to read him. There's a notable primary source, because some of you do like the sources. You like the source. So I'm going to give you one that I did not spend money on. It was too rich for my blood. It's Albert of Aiken, who some of you might have known. We've read him before, because there's some stuff from him that's freely available. But he has a history of the journey to Jerusalem. It's volumes.

Jim Salmon (15:25.078)
Okay.

Jim Salmon (15:31.614)
Mm-hmm. Mm.

Jim Salmon (15:43.393)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (15:51.151)
One and two and published in 2017 was a new translation and collection from Susan B. Eddington. You can actually grab it on Amazon. is how you know my like price point, right? It was 50 bucks for a paper copy and Kindle for 60 for Kindle. And I was just like, yeah.

Jim Salmon (16:04.278)
Hehehehehe

Jim Salmon (16:11.072)
Whoa, 60 for a Kindle? Usually the Kindles are like peanuts.

GOBBA GOOL (16:16.398)
I know. And then on top of it, I had a okay, two comments. So one, I know I couldn't get access to volume one on Internet Archives for some reason. So that made me grumpy. I had volume two, which is like post Jerusalem stuff, which is fine. But volume one is where the siege of Jerusalem is. And here's the other thing, guys. The reason these sources are so expensive is because like seven people will buy them.

Jim Salmon (16:26.626)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (16:47.49)
That's why, yes, yes. I don't know about you guys, but if you're interested in primary medieval sources on the Crusades, join the club. There's literally dozens of us. And then obviously, we're using Jonathan Riley Smith's The Crusades and Thomas Asbridge's The Crusades as sort of our main storytelling device.

Jim Salmon (16:48.48)
Demand is low. Demand is low.

GOBBA GOOL (17:16.11)
I've also got, and I'll just quote him now. We're going to read him in a little bit. John France, Victory in the East, a Military History of the First Crusade. That was published in 1994. So we have a little bit from him. OK. OK. OK, OK, OK, OK. So first things first. I'm the realist. Second thing, before they even leave Antioch. So Antioch falls in the summer of.

97? Is that right?

Jim Salmon (17:50.115)
We talking Antioch? No, I think it was 98. But I'm going to confirm because we don't guess on this podcast.

GOBBA GOOL (17:52.492)
Yeah.

98. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know. I just keep reading. Yeah, we don't guess. You confirm that because then that'll

Jim Salmon (18:03.266)
Yeah, June of 98 is when it fell.

GOBBA GOOL (18:05.87)
OK, and then, yeah, yeah, and then Jerusalem's 99. OK, yeah, yeah, yeah. So the summer of 98, Antioch falls, and they hold it. Now, there's been a little bit of tension as we talked about it, who's going to be in charge. So one of the things that we didn't mention is that all the Crusader leaders had to take an oath to Alexios. And it was a two part oath. And it was essentially, let's see if I can pull it up.

Jim Salmon (18:13.1)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (18:28.651)
Okay.

GOBBA GOOL (18:37.652)
I'm not gonna try to find it. I'll just summarize it. Essentially, the oath was like a general fealty. And then the second one was like, I'm not going to take any of these lands.

Jim Salmon (18:49.794)
Unfortunately, all of them were crossing their fingers when they made that oath.

GOBBA GOOL (18:53.582)
Yeah. right now they were after Antioch falls, all the leaders gather and they basically say,

Jim Salmon (19:03.19)
And when you say leaders, you're talking like the princes like Boamond and Raymond of Toulouse and you know, the yeah, all the big names. Yeah. Tank, Tankrid, Tankrid. Yeah, that's right. So they call him Tank Davis, I believe. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (19:06.946)
Yes. Godfrey. Yes. Yes.

Yeah, big tank.

Yeah. Yeah, they're all they all get together. And this is actually they agreed before if like before the city fell that it would be surrendered to Alexios if he came in person to claim it. Yeah, so there's just a little bit and we got to remember there's some bad blood because Alexios was about ready to be Gandalf and come over the hill and save them. And then he turned around.

Jim Salmon (19:34.418)
I see, okay.

Jim Salmon (19:44.586)
Amen.

GOBBA GOOL (19:47.215)
So, so you got that. And then I guess Alexios is the emperor of Byzantium. So just for anybody jumping in here, we're glad you're here, by the way. We're glad you're here. So long story short, it's kind of chaos right now. Bishop Adamar of Leprur dies and he was the papal legate.

Jim Salmon (19:53.929)
Mm-hmm, right.

Jim Salmon (19:59.031)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (20:14.664)
And he dies from typhoid, probably of typhoid. And this actually like, they were already sort of scattered in who they followed and their allegiances. But at least you had like the papal legate there to be like, here's the rough marching orders.

Jim Salmon (20:18.775)
Yuck.

Jim Salmon (20:33.878)
He's like the rule lawyer in the bunch.

GOBBA GOOL (20:36.558)
Yeah, yes, yes. He's the rule lawyer. That's right. If you play Dungeons and Dragons, you know that guy. Yes. And he helps the DM out, in this case, the Pope, by, you know, making sure everybody's playing by the rules. Yeah.

Jim Salmon (20:42.434)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (20:47.637)
Right.

He's like the chauffeur, know, he's just making sure that, you know, all right, let's not get too rowdy, but also let's stay according to the rules here, what we agreed to.

GOBBA GOOL (21:00.298)
Right, so he dies after Antioch falls. So, some time after he falls before November 1st, they were going to March, November 1st of 98. But then Alexios is asking them to wait. But Alexios' answer, so they take Antioch and then they send him a message and they're like, yo dog.

Jim Salmon (21:15.809)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (21:29.154)
We got your city back. And dude, his response doesn't even get to them until April.

Jim Salmon (21:30.412)
This is not a happy message.

Jim Salmon (21:37.812)
Oof, okay, yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (21:39.372)
Yeah, it's because he didn't like he obviously didn't respond. Yeah, he left. He left him on red. Yes.

Jim Salmon (21:42.816)
Yeah, left him on red a little bit. Yeah, kinda awful. Months to respond. Dang.

GOBBA GOOL (21:51.383)
Yeah, and so you've got like Boamans camp arguing that Alexios is indifferent, maybe even hostile to the Crusaders, and he failed to be a good lord. And then you've got the people that left before the siege. like morale is kind of low. But here's the summary. And this is John, not John, no, Jonathan Riley Smith.

Jim Salmon (21:57.94)
Right.

Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (22:19.03)
In the absence of Alexios and Aramar of Lepoui, that was the papal legate, and facing internal dissensions, the crusaders, crusade leaders were conscious of, even obsessed by, the large number of arms bearers whom they believed had taken the cross but never departed Europe. So they have a diminished fighting force and they are now waiting for reinforcements.

Jim Salmon (22:40.033)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (22:44.448)
Yeah, because Antioch, I mean, we talked about this a lot last week, but Antioch was an eight month long siege that kind of decimated their numbers, right? So they were, they were not looking good to go straight to Jerusalem, right?

GOBBA GOOL (22:58.366)
No, no, not not at all. Not at all. So they go out. This is the side quest part of the story. They go out. This was this is totally filler episodes. They try to take some stuff. They fail. You know, they're probably not super committed. They do. They capture some other random little things, but essentially they're like pillaging the whole countryside. It's just been picked dry. Every piece of game has been murdered because of the eighth month long siege. So.

Jim Salmon (22:59.116)
Okay, okay.

Jim Salmon (23:05.666)
Okay, a little filler episode.

Okay.

GOBBA GOOL (23:27.552)
It's just not the greatest situation, but it's important to know that like supplies are still like coming in though. Alexios is still somewhat taking care of them. He's just being weird.

Jim Salmon (23:42.984)
Right. Because in his mind he still wants to keep the Crusaders happy because he's still kind of hoping that they'll turn all these territories over to him. So it doesn't make sense for him to be totally removed. Mmm. Okay.

GOBBA GOOL (23:51.021)
Yes, except he's not. Except he's not. Okay, so we didn't get a chance to talk about it, but Boyan, remember in your research you probably would have seen that they took Edessa before this? Yeah, and Boyan's like, I'm Lord of Edessa. And Alexios doesn't care. But then when Boamon's like, I'm Lord of Antioch, Alexios is like, no, you're not.

Jim Salmon (24:02.624)
Yes. Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (24:07.234)
I see. I see.

Jim Salmon (24:14.274)
You

Well, cause Antioch was like a huge Byzantine. That was like a stronghold. Yeah. He was like, I want Antioch back. I see. I see. Okay. Okay.

GOBBA GOOL (24:19.956)
Exactly. Exactly. He's not being consistent. Yeah.

Here's Riley Smith. The implication is that Antioch was of strategic importance to the empire, but that Alexios did not object wholesale to the establishment of Latin Christian rule in West Asia. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There you go.

Jim Salmon (24:43.07)
Okay, okay. So he was amenable, was agreeable to them being around. He just probably wasn't his first choice. Okay.

GOBBA GOOL (24:53.44)
Yes. So as I said, the boys are getting rowdy. They're actually starting to threaten to elect their own commanders. Because they, so anyway, Raymond of Toulouse takes and Robert of Flanders take them out to one of their side quests. And it was, it's Mara'at al-Numan. And I guess they were successful in that one. So.

Jim Salmon (25:02.784)
Okay.

GOBBA GOOL (25:23.512)
they essentially these guys have no central leadership. Okay, the papal leg is dead. And the second wave here because remember we're on the second wave of Crusaders. It's essentially run, the Baptists are gonna love this, by committees and assemblies.

Jim Salmon (25:26.603)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (25:38.176)
rate. jeez. Okay.

GOBBA GOOL (25:43.371)
It's a miracle they even left Antioch if we're being honest. Yeah. So the committees though in the assemblies, they worked while Lepue was alive. Yes, he had... So one, they note that he had the personality, right? So he was like... And then he also had the authority. yeah, so he dies in between...

Jim Salmon (25:57.187)
Mm-hmm, the paper legate. Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (26:12.174)
and causes some issues. So, okay, I think we've got our picture painted of what it was like. And so it's like, the other thing that I want us to remember is that these guys are on a holy war. And a lot of them actually believed that they were going to be ushering in the end times. So we've got some like eschatological motivation here that's probably not

Jim Salmon (26:14.166)
Okay.

Jim Salmon (26:17.749)
Okay.

Jim Salmon (26:24.225)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (26:33.683)
Mm, okay.

GOBBA GOOL (26:41.166)
you know, the healthiest thing.

Jim Salmon (26:43.244)
That's a lot of the Peter the Hermit kind of style of preaching. It was very like kind of apocalyptic, like not just, you know, we're coming to get our knights some cool new territories, but it was like, no, this is like a, we're an extension of God's wrath on evil doers and we're here to reclaim what belongs to the Lord and all that stuff. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (26:48.055)
Yes.

GOBBA GOOL (27:04.526)
That's right. Now, if you want to read about all the... If you want to like get your whole filler season, just go to the sources that we gave and just like go buck wild, have a field day. Long story short, they decide finally to leave and march to Jerusalem. They get... They... What were you gonna say? No, not yet. Those are coming. Spoiler alert!

Jim Salmon (27:21.94)
Okay. They got their reinforcements? Okay. All right, eventually we'll get there. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (27:32.683)
No, essentially, essentially they're just like, we have to go. OK. That's kind of what happens. They failed. They were some of the side quests. They were successful in some of the side quests. But essentially, they're like, OK, we have to go. So they get there. And Godfrey, as we've already heard, has got a heavy leadership role at this point. So Jerusalem, Yerushalayim.

Jim Salmon (27:36.149)
Okay, okay.

Jim Salmon (27:49.867)
Okay.

GOBBA GOOL (28:02.368)
is currently controlled by who john simon

Jim Salmon (28:05.282)
not the Seljuks because we've been fighting the Seljuks, it's the Fatimids, the Egyptian, the Egyptian, and we had a little like cameo of them in the last episode because they popped over to the Crusaders and they were like, hey, you guys are fighting the Seljuks, huh? That doesn't sound too fun. Hey, we could come to a little agreement and the Crusaders were like, I don't know, we kind of want to take the Holy Land back. And they were like, actually, we're planning on taking that.

GOBBA GOOL (28:07.978)
on sell Jix. Yes.

GOBBA GOOL (28:16.642)
we did.

GOBBA GOOL (28:23.182)
to date.

GOBBA GOOL (28:31.406)
Right. Yeah.

Jim Salmon (28:32.502)
Cause the the Fatimids just took Jerusalem like what a year before the Crusaders got there? Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (28:36.588)
Yes, yes, they literally had it for a year. they just moved in and reinforced everything. Jerusalem, though, is huge. it's Asbridge actually does a really good job of kind of setting the stage that Jerusalem is a very

Jim Salmon (28:43.998)
Mmm, okay.

Jim Salmon (28:51.01)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (29:06.062)
formidable city. And I was actually wondering, John, you are the one that's been there and seen it. But apparently from the Mount of Olives, you can look out and if you ignore all the modern construction, you can still see the like shell of what the Crusaders would have seen.

Jim Salmon (29:11.33)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (29:25.536)
Yeah, Jerusalem's real hilly. That's the biggest thing that stands out. Like I'm imagining like if I'm having to run in a straight line, it's a nightmare because it's going to be steep upward slopes, steep downward slopes. yeah, so my as I'm imagining like reading about this siege and then thinking about my time actually there, it's I'm like, yeah.

Hilly is what comes to mind and that does not sound pleasant as an attacker certainly. As a defender that's a huge advantage but yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (30:00.271)
Right, so it's, it's, this is like a serious defense. I don't know if Asprinche is overstating when he says it's like one of the fortresses of the eight, of like the medieval world, that it's like, it's like a big deal. I don't know if he's overstating to be poetic, but the point is.

Jim Salmon (30:13.431)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (30:17.602)
Well, I know. Remember, cause like Antioch, Antioch wasn't an amazing fortress because the Seljuks built it up, but because it had been historically so important that they had inherited fortresses from older generations. And I feel like Jerusalem's the same. feel like because Jerusalem had traded hands so many times in history, it's always been.

a place that was heavily fortified. So I could kind of see where he's coming from with that.

GOBBA GOOL (30:49.814)
Yeah, yeah. it's, it's, is a, this is like a scary thing to take. But the Crusader spirits are actually fairly high. So the fad, what?

Jim Salmon (30:54.561)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (31:01.33)
you know, I just realized the Seljuks were the ones who had, who had, had captured Jerusalem when Alexios and Pope Urban were doing their pleas of like, no, they're, they're, they're beating them up outside. Yeah. But they're not even in charge anymore, which is kind of crazy. I never, I never thought about that before. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (31:18.348)
Yeah, the wicked race, as he says.

GOBBA GOOL (31:23.694)
That's actually really funny. That's really funny. Well, so there's a couple of things happening before the big battle. So first off, I'm going to butcher these names, and I'm so sorry. So you have Al Afdal, who is like the big boy. And then you have, and his army is coming into, no, he's coming from Egypt. So you have a few things at play.

Jim Salmon (31:41.676)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (31:51.478)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (31:53.497)
You have Al Afdal leading an entire assembly of scary, you know, combatants up from Egypt. So the time is time is ticking. Secondly, you have Iftikhar al-Dula, who is overseeing Jerusalem. So one, he had a brain and decided to make sure all the Christians got kicked out before the siege started.

Jim Salmon (32:06.146)
Mmm.

GOBBA GOOL (32:22.532)
because if we remember it, Antioch

Jim Salmon (32:24.982)
They were betrayed by a Christian.

GOBBA GOOL (32:26.86)
Yeah, Baldwin was just basically it was Baldwin, right? Boamond, sorry. Boamond's like, I got a guy. Yeah. So yeah. Abdullah is a lot smarter than the guy leading Antioch. So they kick the Christians out. They also poison the wells around which is very smart. Yeah, brutal but smart.

Jim Salmon (32:29.396)
is Beaumont.

Jim Salmon (32:34.146)
Our boy, Feroz. But yeah, expelled all the Christians.

Jim Salmon (32:51.852)
Brutal, but smart, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (32:56.128)
And then on top of that, I'm going to read this is Ashbridge now. Amid all these determined preparations, both besiegers and besieged paused only to exchange morale-sapping acts of barbarism. Wooden crosses were regularly dragged up on the city walls and desecrated through spitting and even urination in full sight of the enraged crusaders. For their part, the Franks made a point of executing any captured Muslims, usually through decapitation in front of Jerusalem's garrison.

Jim Salmon (33:16.93)
Mm.

Jim Salmon (33:26.297)
I'm it.

GOBBA GOOL (33:26.698)
One of these things is not like the other.

Jim Salmon (33:29.618)
so bad. I will say that does speak to, you know, again we talked about this last week, a siege is not just, it's not just two big buff dudes fighting, it's a war of attrition. You have to be slow, you're gonna be hungry, you're gonna be smelly, it's gonna suck. So yeah, them trying to beat down the morale is a constant thing. It is a bummer that the Christians were like, you see what they're doing to our cross? Find some more prisoners and chop their heads off.

GOBBA GOOL (33:31.269)
Shit.

GOBBA GOOL (33:58.913)
Yeah, there's a nice little moment, though, where they go and take Bethlehem and then have a nice little mass. I know. Yeah, so the crusaders are like, this is where Jesus was born, guys. Let's go have church.

Jim Salmon (33:59.266)
Gosh dang it, dude.

Jim Salmon (34:05.762)
that's kinda nice.

Jim Salmon (34:11.338)
yeah and they all sang silent night candlelight

GOBBA GOOL (34:15.894)
Yeah, probably. That's right. had their little plastic candle holder. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Or get onto the carpet, which is actually what the church cares about more than your hand. So yeah, I want to get into the primary sources. So I'll just say this. They

Jim Salmon (34:21.058)
That's right with little paper protectors so the wax doesn't burn their hands

GOBBA GOOL (34:42.442)
The Crusaders decide to do some fasting and I read almsgiving, like they're doing this preparation for battle of fasting and praying and almsgiving and I'm like, Who are they giving alms to?

Jim Salmon (34:54.663)
I could see it, yeah. The poor.

GOBBA GOOL (35:00.386)
Like the local poor? yeah.

Jim Salmon (35:01.578)
I would imagine so, yeah. I forget who I was listening to, but yeah, there was another incident where somebody was kind of divvying up their wealth and they gave a portion of it to the poor. So I do think the Crusaders had that in their DNA. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (35:15.694)
That's cool. That's cool. Alright, little occupying force being like, Hey guys, we stole all this from Antioch. Now it's yours. I don't know if you're poor. I don't care where you got it. Thanks. Thanks. Smelly European. So anyway, uh,

Jim Salmon (35:24.736)
Yeah, that's right. Throw him a couple gold coins and stuff.

GOBBA GOOL (35:39.683)
The assault on Jerusalem begins on the 14th of July 1099. So we are four years, three and three quarters years since urban's call for the Crusades. So it's taken a long time to get to this point, but they are like finally here. So long story short, they

Jim Salmon (35:58.743)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (36:10.658)
They get these siege weapons and we're going to get into where they got the siege weapons when we read the primary sources in a minute. But they get the siege weapons, which are these towers. And I know we reference Lord of the Rings every time we talk about battle, but like it's actually the orcs use them. They push them up in the siege of Minas Tirith and like that's actually what they looked like. So they get, they get over the wall, they take the city. They kill a lot of people.

Jim Salmon (36:31.714)
Mmm.

GOBBA GOOL (36:41.126)
and then the day is theirs. But instead of me telling you, why don't we let our primary sources tell us? So first, want to

Jim Salmon (36:53.068)
We need a little sound bite whenever we're about to read a primary source that's just like, dee-dee-dee-ding.

GOBBA GOOL (36:59.116)
Yes, that's right. That's right. So here is, I'm going to read this whole block. And this is our anonymous source. He says, at length, our leaders decided to beleaguer the city with siege machines so that we might enter and worship the Savior at the Holy Sepulchre. Aw. That's their motivation.

Jim Salmon (37:00.226)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (37:21.218)
There we go.

GOBBA GOOL (37:24.45)
They constructed wooden towers and many other siege machines. Duke Godfrey made a wooden tower and other siege devices and Count Raymond did the same, although it was necessary to bring wood from a considerable distance. Pause. They had such a hard time finding wood. This is actually like in everything I've read. This is like one of the things that gets noted. And so the Britons show up.

Jim Salmon (37:44.13)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (37:49.921)
Okay.

GOBBA GOOL (37:51.727)
and they have ships full of supplies. And so there you go. So the British finally show up and they're like, oh wait, I'm not. And they, they unload the ships and they've got all the supplies for them. Ah, there's a little.

Jim Salmon (37:54.731)
Okay.

Jim Salmon (38:01.123)
You

Jim Salmon (38:05.558)
Maybe the happiest the French have ever been to see the British arrive. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (38:08.724)
see the British. Probably. So they ended up having to, there was this, this was a cool filler episode, where they have to like help protect the supply line and make sure that the ships can land. So they the armies like move out and do that. But long story short, they have to go get wood from very far away. The ships do bring supplies. I read somewhere they actually take apart one of the ships to build these.

Jim Salmon (38:17.986)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (38:38.486)
siege towers, but they get there. Okay. And this is how this is John France from his 1994 work, Victory in the East. This is what he says. However, it was undoubtedly the arrival of the fleet of six ships at Java on 17 June, which was the key event in providing wood and skilled labor and technical knowledge with which to manufacture.

Jim Salmon (38:43.009)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (39:08.918)
So they were... that was that was a big part. The British are coming. Yes. Okay. What were you gonna say?

Jim Salmon (39:15.21)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jim Salmon (39:21.994)
I going to say, I remember that was a similar issue at Antioch. One of the reasons why the siege was so slow was that they didn't have the craftsmen or the supplies to build the types of tools that could have pressured the defenders more.

GOBBA GOOL (39:40.782)
What are they gonna do, go chop down a redwood?

Jim Salmon (39:43.486)
I don't know. Yeah. The problem is they didn't have the skilled hands, so I bet that's a big part of what the Britons brought to the table.

GOBBA GOOL (39:48.995)
Well, I mean, it's not exactly like it's the Black Forest where you can just like throw a rock and hit a massive tree. That's right.

Jim Salmon (39:55.169)
Yeah, they're in Syria. They're kind of chopped down like a... I even know what they have in Syria. But yeah, not a good sturdy tree, I'd imagine.

GOBBA GOOL (40:05.654)
Yes.

So

to the south of the city. I know this is like kind of boring, but I really I want to stress this guy was giving us some good details here. Like he's he's really he's like, okay, this guy's people did this, this guy's people did this, this is where they were. Okay.

Jim Salmon (40:48.189)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (40:55.19)
Who is our source here? This is John French.

GOBBA GOOL (40:58.412)
No, no, no, no, no, John, this is the primary source who is the the guest of Frankorum and it's the anonymous author.

Jim Salmon (41:02.05)
huh.

Jim Salmon (41:08.734)
Okay, okay, gotcha.

GOBBA GOOL (41:10.572)
Yeah. He goes to mention that there are issues with the water supply now, which we had already talked about. So they were basically having like they had considerable manpower going and getting fresh water. This is his exact line. While all this was going on, our water supply was so limited that no one could buy enough water for one Denarius to satisfy our quenches thirst. So.

Jim Salmon (41:26.146)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (41:40.759)
They were, yeah, they were not. They were not doing well on that regard, so they were. There was a timeline too of all right, we gotta we gotta end this get inside the city so we can get from their wells and their fresh waters. But also I guess Jerusalem as a location in general struggles with. What's it called when there's no water? Drought yeah.

Jim Salmon (42:01.762)
drought? Yeah. Yeah, I forget. I want to say Jerusalem is either in or near the Negev, which is like the big desert in Israel. So yeah, it was kind of a bummer. Like I grew up in southern Arizona and the first time I left the country for a extended period of time was in Israel, only to find out that the climate is pretty freaking similar out there. It's like dry desert with not a lot of rain.

GOBBA GOOL (42:30.721)
yeah. Yeah.

Jim Salmon (42:31.832)
So yeah, not a surprise that they were short on water back then.

GOBBA GOOL (42:36.717)
Yeah.

So he says, both day and night on the fourth and fifth days of the week, we made a determined attack on the city from all sides. However, before we made this assault on the city, the bishops and priests persuaded all by exhorting and preaching to the honor the Lord by marching around Jerusalem in a great procession and to prepare for battle by prayer, fasting and almsgiving. There you go. That's where I read that early on the sixth day of the week. We again attacked the city on all sides. But as the assault

Jim Salmon (43:02.263)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (43:07.85)
was unsuccessful. We were all astounded and fearful. However, gotta love that, however, when the hour approached on which our Lord Jesus Christ deigned to suffer on the cross for us, our knights began to fight bravely in one of the towers, namely the party with Duke Godfrey and his brother Count Eustace. Call back to Tommy's episode.

Jim Salmon (43:14.944)
out.

GOBBA GOOL (43:33.343)
One of our knights named Lethald clambered up the wall of the city, and no sooner had he ascended than the defenders fled from the walls and through the city. And what I'm about to read. Remember, this is the primary source. This is not this is not somebody's take. This is not this is somebody being like, I was there and this is what I saw. Our men followed killing and slaying.

Jim Salmon (43:58.422)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (44:02.334)
even to the temple of Solomon, where the slaughter was so great that our men waited in blood up to their ankles.

Jim Salmon (44:09.046)
Dude, I feel like I read so many quotes that were like, blood flowed up to our ankles, blood flowed up to our waists, we were shoulder deep. my gosh. They're stories of the Crusaders being turned away because the smell of the blood was like too much for them, that they were causing. Rough stuff, yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (44:30.486)
Yes. Yes, it's horrible. Yes. Now, it's interesting. So he kind of like he tells it from this side of like Godfrey's men getting into one side of the city. And now he's telling the other side of the city. And I believe Count Raymond is actually the first one to breach. So what we're reading now is I believe what happened first. So Count Raymond brought his army in his tower up near the wall of the south.

Jim Salmon (44:51.682)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (44:59.778)
But between the tower and the wall, there was a very deep ditch. So here's this is a little week. We'll give them some credit here. This was smart. So they had a moat. And then I won't read the whole quote, but they essentially fill the moat. They fill the moat so their siege engines can get across. But this time the pilgrims entered the city pursuing and killing the Saracens up to the Temple of Solomon.

Jim Salmon (45:15.019)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (45:28.28)
where the enemy gathered in force. The battle raged to the day so that the temple was covered with their blood. When the pagans had been overcome, our men seized great numbers, both men and women, either killing them or keeping them captive as they wished. On the roof of the temple, a great number of pagans of both sexes had assembled, and they were taken under the protection of Tancred and Gaston of Berthes. There you go. Okay.

Jim Salmon (45:51.69)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (45:53.505)
Afterward the army scattered throughout the city and took possession of the gold and silver the horses mules all the houses filled with goods of all kinds. Okay, okay, so normal. All right. So so, okay here we go. Wow. All right. So we have we have some survivors And our boy tank big tank Yeah, big tank and gassed on they're like, hey, they're ours. Don't touch them Finish off this primary source here

Jim Salmon (46:01.09)
Mmm.

Jim Salmon (46:07.893)
That's good. That's good.

Tancred, yep.

Jim Salmon (46:21.665)
Mmm.

GOBBA GOOL (46:21.806)
Rejoicing and weeping for joy, our people came to the sepulcher of Jesus our Savior to worship and pay their debt. Fulfill crusading vows by worshiping at the sepulcher. At dawn, our men cautiously went up to the roof of the temple. Oh. And attacked men and women, beheading them with naked swords. Some of them Saracens, however, leaped from the temple.

Jim Salmon (46:37.217)
Jim Salmon (46:43.196)
gosh.

GOBBA GOOL (46:45.154)
Tankred seeing this was greatly angered. End source.

Jim Salmon (46:49.501)
he was angered that they killed themselves because he won

GOBBA GOOL (46:50.894)
Yes. Yeah. No, he was angered that I think that they attacked the people that he said were in his possession. So may

Jim Salmon (46:59.041)
I see. Okay. I did read a story very similar, which I think was exactly that. That Tancred gathered prisoners and put them at the top of this temple. And I think the idea was that he was going to sell them for ransom. And then some other crusaders came up and I read that other crusaders actually came up, saw that they were Muslims and slaughtered them. But yeah, they probably, some of them probably killed themselves also. Right.

GOBBA GOOL (47:23.188)
I guarantee you at least we gotta remember it's a holy war so if tanks big tanks like hey we'll keep them alive we can we can sell them off to the Fatimids I don't know which is far more humane than just you know beheading yeah so big tank says these are my prisoners and then the other fanatics the you know the western jihadists as it were are like actually we shall slaughter them

Jim Salmon (47:30.817)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (47:34.282)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (47:40.225)
Gosh dang it, dude.

Jim Salmon (47:48.993)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (47:53.14)
Yeah, I also read from a couple different sources too that for those who were, you know, I was going to say hoping for a call back to the People's Crusade, Jews in Jerusalem are unfortunately also going to be targeted in attacks. Some of them are going to be

thrown into synagogues while the synagogues are lit on fire around them. But yeah, like they are and and this I think Taylor goes back to what you were saying and what we'd mentioned before about kind of the Peter Bartholomew approach of like this isn't just about taking back territory. This is about being a mouthpiece of God's wrath. So when they burst in they weren't just like

let's take stuff and establish rule, they were like, no, let's recognize the evil doers and punish them. And I know there are stories, I think Raymond of Toulouse was maybe one of the leaders who was trying to kind of quell the savagery of the crusaders, but it was overwhelming the amount of damage they did.

GOBBA GOOL (48:48.718)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (48:59.81)
Well, you got to feel bad too for, I think any guy that was kind of like, had any sense of like, I don't know, dare I say morality behind him, Christian ethics. He's just going to get drowned out. It doesn't, even if you're one of the leaders, even if you're Raymond and Toulouse, it's like, no, we're not going to do that. He could tell his guys don't do that.

Jim Salmon (49:10.763)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (49:27.82)
And then it's like the parent, it's like the parent when you take your kids to the playground and everyone else is running around like being super obnoxious and you tell your kids like, all right now, Timmy and Sarah, you guys go play, but I want you to play nice. But every other kid's being the worst, like your kid's just gonna go and be the worst. Like, what are you gonna do?

Jim Salmon (49:39.744)
Right.

Jim Salmon (49:43.99)
Yeah. there, and there wasn't really a structure set up that said like, this is what we do with the crusaders who get Wiley, you know, you know, well we're, we're going to hold a court because, well, you know, Jim, Jim Bob of, of, of Perry was, was a little aggressive and killed too many women and children. Like, no, there was no accountability for this stuff. Yeah. We, which, you know, again, like we, we, we talked about this a little bit before we hit the, before we hit record tonight. Like.

GOBBA GOOL (49:58.916)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (50:02.806)
Yeah. There's no Geneva Convention. Yes.

Jim Salmon (50:13.929)
On the one hand, we of course want to be historically responsible and not try to inject modern sensibilities into pre-modern individuals. On the other hand, when you recognize that Christianity is something that should transcend time, especially when these are dudes who have been living in a church that was already a thousand years old, like...

If you're filled with the spirit of God, if you're taught by the scriptures, like the holy scriptures, like you should know better. Like maybe that wasn't the cultural custom, but slavery wasn't a cultural custom for a long, or was a cultural custom for a long time too. So were a lot of egregious evil things. And yeah, so on the one hand, we don't want to be anachronistic. On the other hand, we don't want to just cut slack because

well, everybody was doing it. I mean, that's what my mom said about smoking weed. I'm still not allowed to do that.

GOBBA GOOL (51:06.093)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (51:10.316)
Right. I know, bro. I know. I know. Well, let me read Foulcher. Foulcher. Foulcher. So I'm not going to read everything. I will tell you guys, if you want a fun primary source that's really easy to read, please find this one. It's Foulcher de Châtresse.

Jim Salmon (51:13.525)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (51:23.101)
sure. Alright, let's do it!

GOBBA GOOL (51:37.344)
Okay, history of the expedition to Jerusalem. It's very easy to read. Whoever did this translation did a great job. So I'm not going to read the whole thing again, because he's basically telling the same story as our anonymous source guy. He's just a lot more long winded. But I am going to read. Where is it?

GOBBA GOOL (52:01.632)
Yes, here we go.

Number 10. He like numbers everything. Soon, therefore, the Franks gloriously entered the city at noon on the day known as Dias Veniris, the day in which Christ redeemed the whole world on the cross. Amid the sound of trumpets and with everything in an uproar, they attacked boldly, shouting, God help us. At once they raised a banner at the top of the wall. The pagans were completely terrified, for they all exchanged their former boldness for headlong fly.

Jim Salmon (52:05.921)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (52:33.456)
through the narrow streets of the city. That's a banger line. The more swiftly they fled, the more swiftly they were pursued.

Jim Salmon (52:35.393)
Hmm.

Jim Salmon (52:39.295)
Yeah, was a good line. Fulcher was spitting with that one. That was good.

Jim Salmon (52:49.472)
gosh.

GOBBA GOOL (52:50.572)
Count Raymond and his men, were strongly pressing the offensive in another part of the city, did not notice this until they saw the Saracens jumping off from the top of the wall. When they noticed it, they ran with greatest exultation as fast as they could into the city and joined their companions in pursuing and slaying their wicked enemies without cessation. Some of the latter, Arabs as well as Ethiopians, fled into the Tower of David, and others shut themselves up in the temples of the Lord and of Solomon. In the courts of these buildings, a fierce attack was

Jim Salmon (52:59.745)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (53:20.596)
upon the Saracens. There was no place where they could escape our swordsmen. So here's a little cross reference to the top of the temple. Many of the Saracens who had climbed up to the top of the Temple of Solomon in their flight were shot to death with arrows and fell headlong from the roof. Nearly 10,000 were beheaded in this temple. I'm going to read that line again. Nearly 10,000 were beheaded in this temple.

Jim Salmon (53:24.801)
Hmm.

Jim Salmon (53:46.753)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (53:46.913)
If you had been there, your feet would have been stained to the ankles in the blood of the slain. This is how he finishes. What shall I say? None of them were left alive. Neither women nor children were spared. So to understand this in the context, this is a holy warrior.

Jim Salmon (54:01.856)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (54:10.017)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (54:10.742)
Remember he's, I can't keep track of Beaumont and Raymond and Big Tank. Baldwin. So this is Baldwin's chaplain telling the story and he is proud of it. So you have to say, how is he proud of it? Why is he proud of it? Because he believes that they are doing God's will.

Jim Salmon (54:17.569)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (54:24.895)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (54:34.067)
Right, right. Here I'll throw in a little bit of maybe a little bit of nuance here. Not to challenge the numbers, because again, these are all primary sources. I'll say this, two points I actually want to make. One is that as I was reading, I think it was Asbridge also. So Thomas Asbridge about the Crusades, he said the numbers are always tricky because there are Arab primary sources that say like,

70,000 people were killed, which is almost impossible. And then there are more modern, uncovered Jewish primary sources that say closer to 3,000 total. And so there are some sources that said there were no prisoners taken captive. There are other sources that say there were some prisoners taken captive. I honestly think...

because a lot of these dudes were writing these as letters back to Europe where they were from some of them because again they had no they had no reservations of looking too barbaric they wanted to look ravenous so I would say I think some dudes even exaggerated how violent things were

GOBBA GOOL (55:51.819)
Yeah, and in the same way that we questioned Alexios's accounts of what was happening, we will also question the Muslim accounts. Of course, the Muslims are going to be like, and then they killed eight billion of us.

Jim Salmon (56:01.408)
Yes, of course, of course.

That's right, that's right. They're like, yeah, they washed themselves in the blood of the Arab. It's like, I don't know if that happened. Exactly, exactly.

GOBBA GOOL (56:11.158)
Right. And then they ate our people. Which there is an account of cannibalism in the Crusades. I don't know if you came across that in your research.

Jim Salmon (56:21.215)
I didn't but I'm sure there is you know that's the thing like this this was a moment of like This was the Muslims being like yeah that like like when the Muslims reflect on this they reflect on it as if these these Christians were utterly barbaric

Because that is a narrative that they run with for a very long time that Christians are you know, this was an unprompted Unsolicited attack from people's they had very little interaction with so they want to really emphasize They're they're just they're animals. That's what animals do

GOBBA GOOL (56:54.382)
You really got to think. I know we talked about it last episode, how the Fatimids are just kind of confused as to their motives. You got to think, this really is wild. They're like, we have a lovely little empire. We smoke a Duhuka. And then these European, these Franks come across the world armed to the teeth and bloodthirsty. And you're like, why do they want this?

Jim Salmon (57:00.971)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (57:08.639)
Yeah, yeah.

Jim Salmon (57:16.001)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (57:20.617)
Yeah, well that's like we said, when the Fatimids interacted with the Crusaders back outside of Antioch, they were like, sick, like these Europeans are gonna give the Seljuks a hard time. That means we can come in while the Seljuks are distracted and take more territory. Yes, and they did, and then they lost it to the Crusaders. I have another quote that I actually found also from our boy Folcher, which just sounds like Folgers, like he's a coffee man.

GOBBA GOOL (57:35.072)
Yeah, which they did.

GOBBA GOOL (57:49.688)
Full show this shot, sir.

Jim Salmon (57:50.05)
of Chantois, which says, the carnage over the crusaders entered the houses and took whatever they found in them. Thus many poor men became rich afterward all clergy. And this is, I think, a really good point to make that this was not just a guise of religion with only material motives.

Afterward, all clergy and laymen went to the sepulcher of the Lord and his glorious temple, singing the ninth chant. With fitting humility, they repeated prayers and made their offering at the holy places that they had long desired to visit. So after this massive bloodshed, after they pillaged and stole and destroyed, they gathered and they had a worship service together.

I think that really does affirm that like these were men acting out of what they really believed was their Holy Spirit conscience. that's yeah, fill in the blank. So what you think that is, dear listener. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (58:51.702)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (59:00.09)
I well know I know it's scary. It's scary. But people have done horrible things in the name of Christianity since it started. And I think they'll continue to do so until Jesus comes back in his millennial kingdom.

Jim Salmon (59:11.477)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (59:17.398)
Yeah.

Stop it. I want to read another quote. This one's from Christopher Tyerman. I thought this was just a fantastic summary of just the experience of the Crusaders. He's talking about the looting and basically why they looted, but the way he wraps up here is great. He says, the spiritual intensity did not derive solely from the conditions of the march. It was inherent from the start in the enterprise's system.

of belief and understanding of failure and success in terms of God's in terms of in terms of sin and God's favor i.e. the sinful should be looted the one that God's favor rests upon should be the looters. Returning to the quote there was little or no perceived conflict between material and religious motives booty and land were justified as well as necessary reward for laboring in God's service.

The crusade encompassed the pious, the adventurer, the zealot, the thug, the tourist, the driven, the bored, the penitent, the professional, and the desperate within its ideology of service, warfare, and faith. Isn't that good? Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (01:00:28.974)
Wow

That's a good quote. Yeah. I mean, look, OK, we're not OK. Here's here's This is just think we don't. Hate the Crusaders for acting this way in the same way we don't necessarily hate the Muslims for doing it, but we don't approve of it, and we're not going to try to like make this. And when I say we don't hate what I mean is we understand that they were operating out of their time.

Jim Salmon (01:00:51.744)
Right.

GOBBA GOOL (01:01:02.208)
And there is like a certain level of grace, but it's also like I'm not going to pretend that a regenerate Christian walks up to the top of a temple and just starts beheading women who are defenseless. Like, but she was a Muslim woman. OK. That makes it all better. Now.

Jim Salmon (01:01:20.342)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (01:01:25.441)
Yeah, just like, you know, I think that my fear and I know that like the Crusades have kind of, I think that a part of some of the reactivity that a lot of Christians are feeling today is like, you know, we're always made to feel like the bad guys in culture. We're always made to feel like we're oppressive.

and you know there is a lot of blood on Christians hands so I think a lot of Christians in today's society are kind of like I'm tired of being in the apologetic role I want to be I want to see our history as powerful I want to say that we that we didn't that we stood against evildoers and I think it does need to be said like Muslims the Muslims in this in this in this context were most certainly evildoers because that's what we believe of people who follow false religions but

The question that we have to ask and we have to remove ourselves from the contextualizing is what does Christ call us to do to the evildoer? Like truly, what is our obligation to the evildoer? Are we to give them good? Are we to offer grace? Are we responsible for bringing violent justice to every evildoer? Because if that was the case, the Christian legacy throughout the church would be very, very different if all we're supposed to do is bring

GOBBA GOOL (01:02:31.758)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (01:02:50.709)
violent justice to any evil doer out there.

GOBBA GOOL (01:02:53.078)
Yeah. You know what we had said before we went live was, think John and I, tell me if I'm speaking incorrectly for you. I think that if there was like a systematic kind of like trial and like execution of every like enemy fighter, I think I would be okay with that. I think I would go like, okay, well, you know, war sucks. That's horrible. I get why they did that.

Jim Salmon (01:03:13.579)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (01:03:19.841)
Well, it's like, look at the Nuremberg trials, right? Like after World War II, these awful Holocaust camps are broken open, the prisoners released, and then they don't just slaughter all these Nazi officials, they hold months and years worth of trials where they're found guilty and judged by, you know, and judged and then prosecuted appropriately. So...

GOBBA GOOL (01:03:22.531)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (01:03:33.037)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (01:03:45.485)
Right.

Jim Salmon (01:03:46.121)
Yeah, mean, evildoers suck and there's no doubt that people who do evil things leave an egregious mark on humanity, but... yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (01:03:54.351)
I remember reading somewhere, do not repay evil for evil.

Jim Salmon (01:04:00.668)
I don't know where you got that from. Probably Joe Biden's autobiography or something.

GOBBA GOOL (01:04:02.958)
that's right. Joe Byron said it. Yeah. Hey, we'd love to hear what you guys think. We'd love to. I feel like we're trying to be balanced as historians. Okay. Like they thought they were Holy Crusaders. They were clearly doing some things wrong. Their motives might have been somewhat pure, albeit misguided. But at the end of the day, don't slaughter

Jim Salmon (01:04:11.401)
We would, absolutely. Yeah.

Jim Salmon (01:04:19.169)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (01:04:32.578)
defenseless women. Is that a good takeaway? LM I know you're one of our lung younger listeners. LM don't kill defenseless women.

Jim Salmon (01:04:34.571)
Right.

Jim Salmon (01:04:41.771)
Don't do it. It's not good. It's not good. It's bad. Yeah, but no, we would love to hear more views about kind of as we've been uncovering this. I mean, we've been kind of slowly trudging through this first crusade because I think it's worth the attention to detail. And I think it's worth exploring the nuance of these weren't just animals. These weren't just bloodthirsty savages. Like these were complicated men.

GOBBA GOOL (01:04:43.704)
Don't do it. It's bad.

Jim Salmon (01:05:10.443)
who at times held deeply devout religious faith alongside this, what we would see as very kind of ruthless, you know, taste for bloodshed. And it's a tension to hold. That's what history is about, you know? It's getting into shoes that we're not quite comfortable with. But yeah, anyways, always a pleasure, listeners.

GOBBA GOOL (01:05:27.726)
Yeah.

Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (01:05:35.66)
That's right. Sorry we ended on a serious note, but, you know, sometimes you gotta do that.

Jim Salmon (01:05:41.409)
That's right. Well, I guess we'll wrap it up. Yeah, next week, tune in. We're going to talk about kind of the what's next for old for old Jerusalem. Now that, you know, the Muslims have been expelled or either from the city or from the world.

GOBBA GOOL (01:06:00.395)
of a temple.

Jim Salmon (01:06:02.939)
And yeah, now we've got these interesting Prince-type figures trying to figure out who's going to oversee, what's going to happen next. Yeah, we've got some interesting things to discuss.

GOBBA GOOL (01:06:15.535)
That's right. Well, we'll see you guys next week. Bye-bye.

Jim Salmon (01:06:19.778)
Yes sir, bye guys, see you later.