122. Saint Anselm: Thinker, Philosopher, Theologian

The "dark ages" really get a bad wrap, if you ask us. 

The phrase tends to make you think of something from a Monty Python skit: a toothless peasants, constant famine, and a wildly corrupt and inept church. 

And while every bit of fiction has some truth to it, there's one big problem to that narrative. Anselm was an absolute BALLER. 

Listen as Thomas leads the lads through the story of Anselm of Canterbury (Handsome Anselm is what Taylor calls him), Doctor of the medieval church. 

Buy us a coffee: https://buymeacoffee.com/chumphistory

Transcript

Jim Salmon (00:00.462)
Hey everybody, welcome to Church History for Trumps, my name is John Simon, I'm here with Taylor Orange Treadway and the biggest Zac Brand band in the world, Thomas Duell. How we doing guys?

GOBBA GOOL (00:14.158)
Okay, before we hit record, I found out that they didn't know the song Orange, Something in the Orange by Zach Bryant. It's called Something. It didn't matter. You didn't know as 1.531 billion streams.

Jim Salmon (00:22.456)
Wait, it's not even called Orange? You didn't even give us the right title!

Jim Salmon (00:31.106)
If you're like, you ever heard the song, you ever hear the song, Sunlight by the Beatles? it's called Here Comes the Sun. Well, it doesn't matter. You didn't even know what it was. Well, you're giving me bad information. I don't, I don't, I don't understand. Look, I, Taylor, I just didn't know you're so defensive about country Western music, modern country Western music.

GOBBA GOOL (00:39.938)
You didn't know what it was. You didn't know what it was.

Tom Bombadil (00:40.016)
I'm gonna look... I'm gonna look this up. I'm gonna look this up.

GOBBA GOOL (00:51.022)
I I'm just shocked. How many words to Pink Pony Club do you know?

Tom Bombadil (00:53.124)
it was.

Jim Salmon (00:58.198)
Zero. Well, I don't even know what that's- that song sounds way worse. You're a bad person, that's why you know this stuff. No, you- you live under a rock that plays country music on its speakers.

GOBBA GOOL (00:59.96)
Really?

How do I know? I am a troglodyte that lives under, I live under a rock. I listen to obscure, I listen to obscure Christian black metal and Dixieland jazz borderline exclusively. And I know these songs.

Jim Salmon (01:18.2)
but you still sing along to Garth Brooks when he comes on at the bar. That's the problem, dude. Something's wrong. I like Garth Brooks too, actually. Taylor, you need to baptize your iPod.

Tom Bombadil (01:19.929)
And.

Now Garth Brooks, now we're talking. Now we're talking. I think I know what Zach Brian...

GOBBA GOOL (01:23.544)
Garth Brooks is a national treasure.

GOBBA GOOL (01:31.137)
my iPod.

Jim Salmon (01:32.01)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, your your music selection is unwholesome and you're trying to project all that on us not only that's fair Me and Thomas used to talk about the devil wars Prada on here before you came along Probably not good enough for you though, right?

GOBBA GOOL (01:39.232)
Okay. Okay.

Tom Bombadil (01:46.35)
I even played, I even played some double words Prada one time and it didn't get.

GOBBA GOOL (01:46.402)
No, that's normie. That's normie garbage. Devil Wears Prada.

Jim Salmon (01:50.254)
This is the irony, is that a popular metalcore is too normie for you, then you get mad at us for not knowing a song with seven billion views. It's like Pick A Lane, dog.

GOBBA GOOL (02:00.558)
Yeah, I know, I know. I'm inconsistent and I am happy with that. I will say this about music. I have a sickness. I love finding a band that I like and going, wow, they have 400 monthly listeners on Spotify. This is great. Like it does something for me.

Jim Salmon (02:06.701)
That's awful. Hmm. Okay.

Jim Salmon (02:24.717)
Hmm.

Jim Salmon (02:28.373)
See, when I find a band that I like and I see they only have a few hundred monthly listeners, sometimes I think, why does everyone else know that I don't? Maybe they're actually bad. That's true. I think like 1200's my sweet spot, especially if it's like a Christian, like obscure metal subgenre, like then I'm like, this is good. This is hot. This is good.

GOBBA GOOL (02:39.534)
You found them. You found them and they are great. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (02:55.95)
Yeah, I'll do shout outs for Frost Harder and Hilda Diapon. There you go. If you're a metalhead, there you go.

Jim Salmon (03:04.929)
frost harder?

Tom Bombadil (03:05.872)
Shout out.

GOBBA GOOL (03:06.606)
frost harder and a hill to die upon. Yeah, yeah. All right.

Jim Salmon (03:09.055)
Okay. Okay. let's see, what was I listening to? We, we had a good discussion just for a couple of minutes about like the nature of worship music. And it's funny that like that single few minutes of talking got way more traction from our listeners in the comment section than, I don't know, the hours of research that I put into our actual topic, which felt great.

GOBBA GOOL (03:31.694)
Dude, I was listening back to that episode thinking, wow, John Simon did a massive amount of research.

Jim Salmon (03:38.285)
I did too much. I did too much. It was the equivalence of making a big like freaking pot roast and then only one person comes to the party. It's like, well, I got leftovers.

Tom Bombadil (03:49.36)
What have you been listening to recently, John?

Jim Salmon (03:52.847)
Dude, I was listening to Demon Hunter earlier today and I feel like Demon Hunter... No, no. Here's the thing. I think they're like, yeah, they're like veterans.

Tom Bombadil (03:56.4)
Whoa!

GOBBA GOOL (03:58.381)
Normie.

I respect them though.

Jim Salmon (04:05.952)
in the world of Christian metal. And I don't think I like an album front to back from them, but they also have songs that I think hit notes, know, metaphysically speaking, that I can't see other bands doing. Like they're cool with the clean vocals, they've got melodies when they want to. I don't know, I like Demon Hunter, man. I don't know what else to say.

GOBBA GOOL (04:26.638)
I respect anybody that has been in the game as long as they have and remain Christian. Skillet is also up there. I don't like their music, but I like them, you know?

Jim Salmon (04:31.66)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (04:39.736)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (04:43.342)
What about you Tommy, what are you listening to?

Tom Bombadil (04:46.35)
I've been, I got really mad a few months ago that nobody had forced me to listen to Coulter Wall.

GOBBA GOOL (04:54.648)
Dude, I love culture wall.

Jim Salmon (04:55.054)
I like Colterwall. Yeah, it's kind of bluegrassy, right?

Tom Bombadil (04:56.824)
Yeah, I've been enjoying some culture wall. So I've been listening to culture. Maybe maybe some of it. It's more like I don't know. I describe it as like kind of like grungy folk country kind of like, I don't know. You see, it's you feel like you're listening to a much older country artist. A little bit of outlaw country kind of feel sometimes, but I've been listening to culture wall radio, which is.

Jim Salmon (05:03.97)
No folk.

Jim Salmon (05:10.144)
Okay, okay.

Jim Salmon (05:16.102)
Hmm

GOBBA GOOL (05:16.322)
Yeah.

Tom Bombadil (05:23.898)
Exposed me to like Billy strings is another really cool artist Dustin a baggie the great song got 20 long years for some dust in a baggie

GOBBA GOOL (05:27.822)
Dude, Dust in a Baggy is a fantastic song.

Yes. Yeah.

Tom Bombadil (05:38.608)
Yeah, that's a good song. Everybody that Billy Strings plays with, very talented. And it's making me listen to some older stuff, too, like some Johnny Cash and Marty Robbins. Yeah, I know, dude. Sometimes, yeah. This is one of my favorite niche John facts is that John really likes that.

Jim Salmon (05:51.929)
Very nice. brother, come on. I love Marty Robbins, come on. I like Merle Haggard.

GOBBA GOOL (05:56.802)
You like Merle Haggard?

GOBBA GOOL (06:01.486)
Mmm.

Tom Bombadil (06:08.578)
outlaw country stuff like man you and yeah you you and rod would put on just like some country crooners on the on the spotify and just

Jim Salmon (06:10.274)
Dude, I'm like hip hop up front, country in the back.

GOBBA GOOL (06:14.67)
video.

Jim Salmon (06:18.83)
Dude, if you've randomly put on a 50s and 60s country playlist, you might find me singing along to every single song. Like I just like, I love that stuff, dude. Yeah, this is is like pre-

GOBBA GOOL (06:30.048)
I like that. That's some John Lore I didn't know.

Tom Bombadil (06:35.258)
Where did that come from?

Jim Salmon (06:37.278)
Shoot that's a good question. I don't even remember honestly, I think every every like Genre binge that started just started with one song that I couldn't get over and I think it was Your cheating heart by Hank Williams and I was like this guy's voice is crazy Like he just like slams you and his songwriting is so catchy so then I list I found a list of classic country albums and one of them was

GOBBA GOOL (06:55.15)
Mmm.

Tom Bombadil (06:57.444)
Nice.

Jim Salmon (07:06.992)
number one country hits by Hank Williams and the author of the article was like it's long but you're gonna love every single song and I was like here we go and he was absolutely right I freaking love it so yeah yeah look at all country

Tom Bombadil (07:19.044)
Nice. That's awesome.

GOBBA GOOL (07:24.974)
Let me some little jambalaya and a crawfish pie. Me oh my oh.

Jim Salmon (07:30.798)
That's right, yeah. That's like one of the top three. That's like that one. What is it? Hey, good lookin', what you got cookin'? Yeah, but I love his sad stuff, bro. I love cheatin' hard. I love I'm so lonesome I could cry, cold, cold heart. Those are just like, ah, get to the bones, bro.

GOBBA GOOL (07:50.54)
did. John Simon's just rapid firing these off. You know it, I do.

Jim Salmon (07:54.603)
I dude. yeah. I know a lot of this stuff. All right. Honestly, I'll probably join you. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (07:59.392)
Anyway, I'm going to listen to 36 chambers for the 400,000th time.

GOBBA GOOL (08:08.269)
All right. Well, yeah.

Jim Salmon (08:08.756)
man.

Tom Bombadil (08:09.902)
Alright well before we dive into this week's content I have an announcement that won't be news to you guys but news for our fans. I am evolving. I'm transcending to the third heaven of church history metaphysics. No it's kind of a life update for me. Basically I'm getting to the point where I can't

Jim Salmon (08:21.262)
Hmm.

Jim Salmon (08:26.786)
We're too small for him, you guys.

GOBBA GOOL (08:30.381)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Tom Bombadil (08:39.672)
I can't devote the amount of time I want to to the podcast, which is a bummer. was just looking, we're 121 episodes in at the time of recording. We've been doing this for three years straight and we've covered a lot of content. we are going to do an episode soon where we just kind of like chew the fat and

Jim Salmon (09:01.208)
Yeah.

Tom Bombadil (09:09.412)
reminisce on maybe some of our favorite episodes and that sort of thing. But the podcast isn't ending and I'm not actually going away. I'm just gonna be here less. So I'm gonna move from being a host of the podcast to a semi-regular contributor. you will hear from me often throughout the year, but it'll be either for a very specific...

episode or maybe a mini series here and there and John and Taylor will continue to be rapid firing stuff to you guys every single week. So I owe a great debt to our listeners. You know, I feel like I don't I don't even know how it's just it's the algorithm. It's the internet that's exposed us to all the people that like to listen to this podcast and it's always really encouraging and when

Jim Salmon (09:57.678)
you

Tom Bombadil (10:05.178)
We have somebody reach out who just listened to all of our content. And I'd like to think that they grew maybe a little bit in their understanding of church history. And it's been a good project for me. And it's not over. It's just going to greatly diminish from your perspective as a listener.

GOBBA GOOL (10:25.741)
Okay, all right, and that is Tommy's last thing he'll ever say, okay.

Jim Salmon (10:29.517)
That's not true. That's not true. man.

GOBBA GOOL (10:33.889)
Dude, you starting this with John, I'm very grateful. You know, I kinda came in off the coattails of your guys' success. So I'm grateful.

Jim Salmon (10:39.019)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (10:46.452)
dude, it's crazy, cause like...

Tom Bombadil (10:47.204)
Well, you've really helped it grow, Taylor. I've been so thankful to have you on the pod.

Jim Salmon (10:50.869)
yeah. But I mean, dude, I, I, I've been thinking about this, especially since Tommy first shared this with, the two of us. Like it was such a lightning in a bottle moment that I, you know, that Thomas and I were.

really close friends. I mean, we're still close friends, but we were just like, our circles were very, very tight at the time. We were going to school together, we were doing ministry together, and we both just had such a love, not just for church history, but for like the church itself. We just had such a love and a passion for the bride of Christ, and we just wanted to tell that story to people. yeah, I mean, I, if that like,

text message to Thomas at that moment back in 2022 doesn't happen then none of this happens and so like yeah dude I it's been such a sweet ride and I'm so bummed so freaking bummed but I also know this is yeah I know well I got another couple months and then I think I might be hitting out too I'm just I'm just joking no I'm just joking no no no I'm feeling strong I'm feeling ready but this is a blow for sure

Tom Bombadil (11:44.388)
you

GOBBA GOOL (11:44.493)
Now you're just stuck with me's.

GOBBA GOOL (11:53.408)
don't say that!

Tom Bombadil (11:58.104)
Everybody just gets to listen to 45 minute monologues in cockney for some reason.

Jim Salmon (12:03.053)
Oi, gavna!

GOBBA GOOL (12:06.295)
Yeah, dude, I am mad.

Tom Bombadil (12:10.2)
It's his nervous crotch, he just has to talk and cockney.

GOBBA GOOL (12:13.581)
I just have to- I just- just to get through it. Today we are going to be speaking on Z!

Tom Bombadil (12:20.72)
man

Jim Salmon (12:22.431)
Yeah, so anyways, we don't want to go on too long. We're going to have more time to really, you know, like Tommy said, just reflect, especially I want that to be especially a gift for those of you guys who have just been with us for a long time because 120 episodes, I mean, three years is a long time. So.

GOBBA GOOL (12:35.915)
Yeah. So here's what you guys can do starting now is start dropping in the comments your favorite Tommy memories or quotes or something and be like, like, give some love to Tommy. So let him know.

Jim Salmon (12:45.197)
that's good. Mm-hmm.

Tom Bombadil (12:45.562)
Hmm.

Jim Salmon (12:51.807)
Maybe what we'll do is when we start releasing merch, we'll have a Thomas Duel shirt with the wings protruding past his face and it'll be a quote, I don't know, some kind good Tommy quote. It'll be like 2022, 2026.

Tom Bombadil (12:59.639)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (13:01.362)
my

Tom Bombadil (13:04.708)
You gotta make me look... shoot.

I gotta grab a paper towel.

GOBBA GOOL (13:12.171)
He's, it's cause he's crying. He's crying. No, it's cause he's, did he spill his adult beverage? His adult.

Jim Salmon (13:13.456)
You

Jim Salmon (13:18.317)
He's an emotionally intelligent man, like give him a chance.

GOBBA GOOL (13:22.561)
I think he spilled his reformed adult beverage, is I think what just happened.

Jim Salmon (13:24.813)
Alright, well we are going to be talking, we're kind of in our... Yeah, we finished the first crusade, we went all the way from kind of setting the table up to...

the establishment of the Crusader states. we've been kind of, yeah, freestyling a little bit. We're going to be just kind of exploring some other topics to give us a little bit of a palate cleanser before we jump into Crusade numero dos. And so, yeah, we're actually really psyched to have Thomas be leading this episode. And we're going to talk about a pretty significant key figure in medieval Europe as far as the history of the church and the development of Christian theology goes. uh,

Yeah, we're super psyched to talk about that. Did I give you time there, Thomas?

Tom Bombadil (14:11.984)
Yeah, it was good. You like my nervous crutch of just like spilling a beer to end the conversation and like, oh crap, man, spill my beer.

GOBBA GOOL (14:17.293)
I don't want to feel things

Jim Salmon (14:21.589)
It's alright, Thomas already knows my nervous crutch is to throw whatever I have in my hands half a football field away from me. See, I knew you remembered it immediately as soon as I said it.

Tom Bombadil (14:27.952)
it's so true

I'm forgetting like the exact details of what you did. It was bad though.

Jim Salmon (14:36.853)
We were with, we were, we had met this, okay. I swear, listener, I'm so sorry we're going late. We had met this freshman from the U of A, when we were both, we were, we, this was a few years ago, we would go to this hookah bar at the U of A to drink coffee, smoke hookah, and then just do our seminary work. We met this dude named Ethan, who was a freshman and we just strung up a conversation with him. Did you really? that's awesome, dude. Okay. I'm gonna text you about that.

Tom Bombadil (14:40.432)
yeah. I was looking at this book the other day.

Tom Bombadil (14:58.916)
who i bumped into about a couple months ago by the way he ran up to me on the disc golf course and was like what's up

Jim Salmon (15:06.477)
Dude, that is so awesome. I love that. But yeah, we just kind of got to know him and started teaching him about Jesus and stuff. And he started teaching us about David Foster Wallace and he gave me a book. I think it was concerning the lobster and I was flipping it around in my hands and just dropped it, swung my hand up to catch it and just launched it across the parking lot. Just looked like I had freaking, I don't know.

Tom Bombadil (15:26.306)
Spiked it right into the parking lot.

Jim Salmon (15:31.297)
Tourette's of the Arms for like a split second. anyways, all right, we're 15 minutes in. Listeners, I'm sorry. Let's get rolling. We're on Saint Ansem today, boys. Let's run it.

Tom Bombadil (15:33.296)
haha

Tom Bombadil (15:37.85)
Let's go. Let's go.

Anselm. All I have for the cold open is a quote, and I do not seek to understand that I may believe, but believe that I might understand. For this too I believe since unless I first believe I shall not understand St. Anselm. Anselm is a really cool figure in church history who honestly I didn't know a lot about, which is ironic.

because the name of the presbytery that I am in is Anselm Presbytery. And I also dedicate this episode to the people of Anselm Presbytery, the pastors, the women, the children, and the men all across the western, the west coast of the United States and into Alaska and the Philippines. This is to all of you. We'll do a little bio on the namesake of our presbytery. So,

Anselm as you'll see in that quote, which I'll read it to you again. He kind of has this way with words. It's Very philosophical you have to read Anselm's quotes in his writings multiple times to follow it I do not seek to understand that I may believe But believe that I might understand for this too. I believe since unless I first believe I shall not understand so Anselm was a big believer in

The fact that faith doesn't originate from knowledge necessarily, but that our rational mind and knowledge and understanding can increase our faith. So he was a very profound philosopher in church history. People plot him kind of right in between, both in history and in prominence, St. Augustine and

Tom Bombadil (17:39.802)
Thomas Aquinas as he is a doctor of the church. Yes.

Jim Salmon (17:41.887)
Is he one of the doctors of the church? is that... That's right, yeah, that's a pretty, pretty very esteemed title.

GOBBA GOOL (17:48.137)
He is kind of credited, he's accredited with starting scholasticism.

Tom Bombadil (17:54.062)
Yes. Yeah, so basically the guy, which people would often say Aquinas would be in some ways a father of that as well. And Anselm is just kind of doing his own thing in the 11th century and super, super intelligent. And then he has some other really cool character traits that I was really pleased to read about that.

I think you guys will enjoy. He was proclaimed a Doctor of the Church by a papal bull of Pope Clement XI in 1720. If you're coming from the Protestant tradition, a Doctor of the Church may be an unfamiliar title, but it's basically a... it's like a... it's an honorific title given to people who have made a significant contribution to theology or doctrine.

Jim Salmon (18:32.365)
Hmm.

Tom Bombadil (18:52.78)
Anselm is definitely that. So I'm to tell you a little bit about his early life and then we will dive into some of his work. So Anselm was born in Upper Burgundy, which had been part of the Carolingian dynasty at one point. Burgundy, if you look up a map of where that area is, you're basically looking at France. And then you've got Normandy as well, if you want to look up Normandy.

That's going to be an important area in our studies today. And so both these areas are in France. And I think they may be separated by the Alps, because has to cross the Alps to get to Normandy, I believe. Anyway, so he was born in Upper Burgundy. And he was born into a wealthy family. His father, Gundolf, was a noble. And his mother, Ermenberg,

was the granddaughter of Conrad the Peaceful who had been the king of Burgundy. he's in this kind of quasi-royal family that is very wealthy. And I was reflecting on this earlier. It's really astonishing how many people in church history that end up being really prominent and also end up as monks come from really wealthy families where their Christianity is not necessarily looked upon favorably and

They're really pious from a young age. I'm thinking about Francis and Benedict are both like this. I'm sure there's others, but seems like they're... yeah. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah, it's a really common theme, guys. They grow up in this wealth, but they start off pious and then maybe their piety is kind of tamped down.

Jim Salmon (20:26.018)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (20:30.573)
Anthony of the desert was also came from a really wealthy family.

Tom Bombadil (20:49.956)
They go through a kind of a rebellious phase and then they come back to it. So anyway, that was his story. And he wanted to enter into monastic life at the age of 15, but his dad didn't want him to. And so the abbot of the monastery that he wanted to join refused him. for clarity, when we're talking about, because we'll talk about monastery life a little bit on this episode.

The abbot of the monastery was basically the ruler of the monastery. And in a Benedictine monastery, where you're following the rule of Benedict, part of living under Benedictine rule was you have an abbot who is basically the father figure and ruler of the monastery's life. And everybody in the monastery needs to obey him. And he also has to provide for the needs of everyone in the monastery.

as well. And then you also have what's called a prior, which is best I can tell is like the second in command and monastic life. And that'll come into our story as well. So after he doesn't get to join the monastery at 15, he gets sick for a while, possibly just from like plain old heart sickness, like really bummed he didn't get to join the monastery. So he gets really depressed. And then

He ends up living a carefree life for a while. Classic, yep.

Jim Salmon (22:20.077)
Classic, classic prodigal phase before the holiness of God catches up with him.

Tom Bombadil (22:28.336)
That's right. Yes. A few years later, his mom dies giving birth to his youngest sister. And then his dad is like, oh, I haven't been living right. I'm going to go join the monastery.

Jim Salmon (22:45.325)
Rubbin' it in, man.

GOBBA GOOL (22:45.493)
Yep.

Tom Bombadil (22:50.192)
Which kind of just seems to make him I don't know I'm reading between the lines here But it almost seems like he like kind of loses his mind at this and just like okay, so at age 23 He leaves home. He crosses the Alps and he wanders I think what he had like one attendant to his name I think he still had his wealth at this point. So he's traveling with one servant and He wanders around Burgundy in France for three years

He had a fellow countryman named L'Enfranc, who was a prior, so that second in command, at the Benedictine Abbey of Beck, which is in Normandy. I wanted to give just a quick little bio of Beck. This is from Wikipedia. The abbey's construction began in 1034 and continued through 1035. Further lands were added through 1040.

Saint Helewyn was a Norman knight who in about 1031 left the court of Gilbert, Count of Brienne to devote himself to a life of religion. The commune of Lebec, Helewyn, preserves his name. 136 monks made their profession while Helewyn was in charge. It is located in Lebec, Helewyn, Normandy, France and was the most influential abbey of the 12th century Anglo-Norman kingdom. So,

Beck Abbey is essentially a Benedictine Abbey where a warrior monk started the work. So he left the warrior lifestyle and decided to join or start, he starts this monastery. then Beck ends up being, when you think about like like a Ivy league institution or like a seminary, Beck ends up being

kind of like that in Normandy. This is where a lot of different people are going to come study over the years. I think there's a future pope that's going to study at Beck. Obviously Anselm is going to study at Beck in the future. So by age 27, he's traveled over, he's visited Beck, he wants to join, but L'Enfranc felt like there was a conflict of interest, maybe because he knew him already.

Tom Bombadil (25:17.304)
And so he sends him to another abbot or some other archbishop, I can't remember which, and that bishop or abbot says, no, no, you should join Beck. So he joins Beck as a novice or a novitiate at age 27.

so.

GOBBA GOOL (25:35.203)
So he had a late start.

Tom Bombadil (25:38.328)
Yeah, he doesn't enter into like ministry life until later than usual.

GOBBA GOOL (25:39.713)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (25:44.685)
Let that be an encouragement to you all. I find that encouraging.

Jim Salmon (25:47.151)
And he kind of had this like Paul in Arabia season two where he's like kind of wandering the Alps and wandering Burgundy in France and this was before he was officially kind of brought into the Abbey right? So yeah that's you know hey he's using his single years wisely so good on good on him

Tom Bombadil (25:49.54)
Yeah.

Tom Bombadil (26:12.824)
Amen. So he's there for, I think, three years and then, L'Enfranc gets called away by Duke William II to become the abbot of a new abbey that was being built somewhere else. And, the other monks at Beck decide to make Anselm the prior.

in his place, like the second in command. He's a little controversial because of how young he is. He's only 30 years old at this point. But they make him a monk, or I'm sorry, the prior. And then he does some cool things while initially in this role to kind of earn the favor of even those who had opposed him, which is gonna be important later in his life. We see that...

common theme throughout Anselm's life is he really knew, seems like he understood the dynamics of power and how men deal with each other and even how to win the favor of your opponents. He understood all these things really well, which you don't always see with clerics in history. Sometimes they don't get those dynamics or maybe they understand them but they're opposed to them. But he seemed to understand some of those

political realities pretty well.

Jim Salmon (27:42.529)
Hmm.

Tom Bombadil (27:44.528)
After I think 15 years later he becomes the abbot after the original abbot dies I think it was still heirloom in the warrior monk who had started it So heirloom dies and now they elect Anselm as the abbot. So now he's no longer number two in command He's number one at this Benedictine monastery And

It became a really strong place of learning for all of Europe. So people from France and Italy and elsewhere would come and learn here. It is while he's here that he wrote two of his most important works, the Monologian and the Prostologian. He also composed a series of dialogues on the nature of truth.

Jim Salmon (28:34.583)
Hmm.

Tom Bombadil (28:42.64)
free will in the fall of Satan, which is super interesting. want to look that one up. I think now would be as good a time as any to talk about Anselm's ontological argument for God. If you look up Anselm, like on YouTube or Google him, you'll find a lot of people talking about Anselm's ontological argument.

Jim Salmon (28:47.501)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (28:59.959)
Mm-hmm.

Tom Bombadil (29:10.954)
And if you've ever taken philosophy in college or studied philosophy at a higher level, you may have encountered this. It's a highly discussed topic in philosophical circles and also in apologetic circles as a proof for God's existence.

GOBBA GOOL (29:31.021)
Yeah. All the apologetic bros are like the cross reference right now.

Jim Salmon (29:36.718)
They said our word.

Tom Bombadil (29:37.314)
Yeah, I'm probably, yeah. Unfortunately, I'm probably going to disappoint our apologetic fans and our philosopher fans because I am not a philosopher. I think even this ontological argument that I'm going to lay out here is a little bit challenging for me, to be honest. Gavin Ortland has a YouTube video on it that I just

only pulled one thing out of, but I could tell that it was a really solid.

video of his so I'd recommend going and checking that out I trust him to unpack this well but so the the argument basically goes like this if it is possible that God exists then it follows logically that God does exist now this is an ontological argument so ontology is the study of the nature of being and existence and so I'm gonna walk you through one

description of how this works. did find this this particular description on a channel belonging to William Lang Craig who I do not recommend. I've been increasingly disappointed with his work recently. However, this wasn't necessarily Lang Craig who laid this out, but you could tell whoever laid out this argument was a follower of his because they use the language of possible worlds a lot, which is something that Lang Craig

He talks about apologetics from a kind of like a multiverse perspective sometimes. But anyway, all that to say, if we can define God as a maximally great being, if there are anything greater than that being would be God. So like the thing in all of creation or outside of creation that is all-powerful,

Tom Bombadil (31:38.284)
All-knowing and morally perfect if there is anything That had more of those qualities than this thing that that thing would by necessity be greater by necessity be God that's what we're talking about And you can use your mind to think about things that could exist in a possible world But not necessarily the actual world and an example of that would be like a unicorn, right? like we know unicorns aren't real but

Jim Salmon (32:04.206)
Mm-hmm.

Tom Bombadil (32:07.504)
It's extremely plausible to imagine a possible world logically where a unicorn exists. A horse with a horn on its head that also has wings and can fly. Or maybe that would be Pegasus or a cross. Anyway, those things aren't

GOBBA GOOL (32:21.833)
My horn can pierce the sky.

Tom Bombadil (32:25.072)
Those things are plausible, right? An example of something that couldn't exist even in another possible world would be a married bachelor. By definition, those things are opposed to each other. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So if it's possible that a maximally great being exists, then we can say that he exists in some possible world.

Jim Salmon (32:36.673)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (32:41.142)
the two-sided triangle.

Tom Bombadil (32:54.466)
and a maximally great being would not be maximally great if he only existed in some possible world. If a maximally great being exists in every possible world, then he exists in the actual world. So this argument against an atheist and against atheism is important because an atheist must now defend not only that God doesn't exist, but that it is impossible that God

exist. So it's an important argument in the grand scheme of philosophy and apologetics. Basically, Anselm's argument could be boiled down to... he basically says, if you can imagine that God exists, then you'd be a... you're a literal fool to not believe that that he does actually exist. Another way to lay it out would be...

this. So this is a little bit more true to his actual formula. And this might make your brain spin, but again, some of our other listeners are probably going to enjoy this. It is a conceptual truth, or so to speak, true by definition that God is a being than which none greater can be imagined. That is the greatest possible being that can be imagined. Number two, God exists as an idea in the mind. Number three,

A being that exists as an idea in the mind and in reality is, other things being equal, greater than a being that exists only as an idea in the mind. Number four, thus if God exists only as an idea in the mind, then we can imagine something that is greater than God. That is the greatest possible being that does exist. Number five, but we cannot imagine something that is greater than God, for it is

It is a contradiction to suppose that we can imagine a being greater than the greatest possible being that can be imagined. Number six, therefore, God exists. If this feels confusing, think what was helpful for me, because this was confusing for me, is comparing it to the moral argument for God, which you might be more familiar with, which is essentially the argument that the existence of evil is actually a proof of God's existence.

Tom Bombadil (35:19.888)
Because you can't have darkness without light. You can't know that darkness is a thing. You can't without light. You can't know that evil is a thing objectively without there also being an objective good. You can't know that transgression of law is a real thing unless you have objectively a lawgiver. Matthew Levering says, God made our minds to know him inscribed in our very rationality.

is the reality that even to think that God does not exist is a contradiction in terms, a sheer absurdity, once one realizes what God means. Gavin Orland put it, I'm paraphrasing him, but he basically says, just as the moral argument for God impresses itself upon us from a moral level, so the ontological argument for God impresses us on a rational level.

Jim Salmon (36:16.726)
Okay, I think that's like a lot for me to, I think you had explained it really well, but I was just like, man, this is why this is called church history for chumps. But I think like how I would regurgitate that to try to like process it myself is,

GOBBA GOOL (36:27.063)
Dude. yeah.

Jim Salmon (36:36.544)
A telltale sign that God has made humans to follow a law of morality is that even in completely untouched by Christian cultures, they still establish laws and customs and rules because we are made for order. And in that same way,

even in cultures that have not been affected by Christianity, which follows monotheism, there is still an appropriation of a divine, of a supernatural, like there's always a God, there's always something that is transcendent that they center their lives around. So it's like, there's, because our minds can...

can formulate it, as humans have to project it, which means that there is something there. It's not enough to say there's no law. It's not enough to say there is no God. This is interesting. I feel very smart right now.

GOBBA GOOL (37:31.362)
I, I'm going to level with everybody here. I have been familiar with this argument for years and I still don't get it. I get it philosophically. I think the nice thing about the ontological argument is that it exists by itself. It's its own thought exercise. doesn't require any,

Tom Bombadil (37:31.407)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (37:44.142)
You

GOBBA GOOL (38:00.898)
buttles or other. It doesn't require any presuppositions. I am very heavily presuppositional list. So I don't thank you, James White, for influencing a young Taylor in that. I, I do appreciate how this argument can sort of just float and hang on its own. I still don't really get it. I wouldn't use it.

Tom Bombadil (38:01.136)
Precept positions.

Jim Salmon (38:02.153)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (38:30.401)
But...

Tom Bombadil (38:30.778)
I mean, so there's critics even in the modern or in the contemporaries of his critique him for basically saying like, well, you just made a dangerous jump by going from just because something can be conceived of as an idea that it can also be reality. there was another monk who I think critiqued him by talking about like the greatest possible like island or something like that. Or a modern example I saw is like,

Jim Salmon (38:55.964)
Mm-hmm.

Tom Bombadil (39:00.632)
the greatest maximal like pizza like you know the the best pizza of all time and it's like well it breaks down when you start critiquing it it breaks down because the subject of Anselm's inquiry here is God not a pizza not an island

GOBBA GOOL (39:16.469)
Yeah, not not pizza. You know what's. You know what's fascinating, though, is I could see some homie being motivated by being able. I think this is not very Western. think this is more of an Eastern thought. Totally motivated to be like I want to find or, you know, make the greatest pizza. So I do, I guess I'm that's that's helping me understand it a little more of.

Jim Salmon (39:18.028)
Yeah, those are all subjective. They hold subjective value. God is an objective reality.

Tom Bombadil (39:22.21)
Right. Exactly.

Jim Salmon (39:39.278)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (39:46.401)
Like, if I can fathom it, I know it can be real. Right? Now, the island is a little bit out of your control, right? But the pizza's not out of your control.

Jim Salmon (39:51.062)
right and it seems to lean really

Jim Salmon (39:58.137)
Well, and it leans into God's immateriality. it's, you know, what's the best pizza? Is it the most, is it the deepest dish pizza? Is it the thinnest crust pizza? Like all those things are subjective. It's a material thing with subjective versions of what value is, but a perfect God.

Tom Bombadil (40:15.246)
Yeah, you can make it better by adding more pepperonis.

GOBBA GOOL (40:18.252)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (40:18.474)
Exactly, exactly, but a perfect God who exists within an ordered universe that he has designed is not subject to subjectivity. He is perfectly everything that he is, despite what his created beings think about how thin his pepperoni is. I feel very smart right now.

GOBBA GOOL (40:30.006)
right.

GOBBA GOOL (40:37.139)
Mm-hmm. I think the most fascinating part is, dude, Anselm must have done a lot of thinking while he was a wandering vagrant. Like...

Tom Bombadil (40:43.162)
Big Brain Hour.

Jim Salmon (40:47.246)
This is why every 24 year old should just walk around outside for three years with a backpack. Just do what Forest Gump did. Just go running for two years.

GOBBA GOOL (40:56.576)
Right.

GOBBA GOOL (41:01.857)
Yeah, fine. Find me, John or Tommy on your journey. We'll buy you food and some new shoes, send you back on your way. But keep, yeah, but keep going. Keep wandering. LM's gonna knock on your door three years from now.

Jim Salmon (41:07.234)
Yeah. Remind you how to socialize. Yeah. That's right. Keep on doing it.

Tom Bombadil (41:17.334)
Ha ha ha!

Jim Salmon (41:17.858)
Remember me?

GOBBA GOOL (41:20.993)
took your advice, John.

Tom Bombadil (41:22.928)
They're like, Thomas doxed your house location one time in an episode and I wrote it down.

GOBBA GOOL (41:25.282)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (41:30.349)
That's right.

Jim Salmon (41:31.828)
Well, he likes Lakeside Park! It's like, gosh... Still gotta look for listeners whenever I take my walks.

Tom Bombadil (41:34.296)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

GOBBA GOOL (41:35.199)
Yeah. Anyway, I don't want to jump ahead, like so tell me if I'm jumping ahead. So yeah, so Anselm had the ontological argument as probably his greatest contribution. That's like attached to his name, right? But theologically, what I find more interesting is he's kind of known as like the father of penal substitutionary atonement.

Tom Bombadil (41:59.406)
Yeah, his satisfaction theory of the atonement is one of his more notable works.

Jim Salmon (42:09.262)
And that's not exactly penal substitution, right? Like they're kind of interconnected, but not exactly one-to-one. Yeah.

Tom Bombadil (42:13.68)
Yeah, I think it's different. I think.

GOBBA GOOL (42:19.179)
No, it's upriver of it, for sure.

Jim Salmon (42:21.302)
It's the grandfather.

Tom Bombadil (42:24.368)
yet he

GOBBA GOOL (42:25.323)
We sing it every Sunday when we sing, the wrath of God was satisfied.

Tom Bombadil (42:32.196)
You thank Papa Anselm.

GOBBA GOOL (42:34.839)
That's right.

Tom Bombadil (42:36.312)
Yeah, I'm going to talk in a little bit about another work of his, Why God Became Man. Something that's worth noting is Anselm was like very influenced by Augustine, which is probably another reason why modern reformed folks like randomly like Anselm, because they also really like Augustine.

Jim Salmon (42:50.158)
Mmm.

Jim Salmon (42:56.046)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (42:59.137)
Yeah, they don't like anybody else in Anselm's world. That's for sure.

Tom Bombadil (43:02.608)
You read you read the Anselm and you're gonna hear I mean it's the same kind of Type of mind and work as Augustine and Calvin so people people like them so What's gonna end up happening is that in 1066 there's a Norman conquest of England and So the Normans which is you know, basically where he's from now are in control of England

and the Norman lords had given his abbey a bunch of land across the English Channel over there in England. And so he is traveling back and forth from time to time across the channel to go check out these properties and to do his work over there in England as well. I think they're building maybe another monastery over there, and he would also go visit

His old friend, L'Enfranc, remember the previous prior of the Abbey, who is now the Archbishop of Canterbury as of 1070. So he's respected by William I, who is kind of the king at this time. And then William dies and...

We find King William II, who's going to play prominently in the rest of the story, who's also called William Rufus. I think that's what I'm going to call him through the rest of the story. William Rufus is king when L'Enfranc dies. And everybody kind of expected that Anselm was going to be the next Archbishop of Canterbury. But William Rufus says, well, I'm not going to appoint a successor.

and I'm gonna take the the seas land for myself. So this is around the time of the investiture controversy, which have we done an episode on that? Have we referenced it? At this time in church history, I can't even fully wrap my mind around it. I haven't fully studied it, but basically there's lots of debate going on over like who has the authority to consecrate bishops.

Jim Salmon (45:14.35)
I don't think so.

Tom Bombadil (45:28.68)
and kings and vice versa. Like what's the relationship between church and state when it comes to offices of the church and the state? Yeah, Anselm's your boy I think, Taylor, when it comes to this stuff. He's Anselm completely stands on business from like this time onward over not letting the state get away with overreach into the church and Anselm wins like every time.

Jim Salmon (45:55.886)
Mmm.

GOBBA GOOL (45:57.492)
I mean, dude, that this time it was such a mess though that I don't even think any, I don't even think like a hardline Christian nationalist is gonna look at what Rome was doing and be like, yeah, that's probably how that should go.

Tom Bombadil (46:12.122)
Yeah, mean, I don't know that it was necessarily... I mean, reading it from Anselm's perspective, Anselm was doing some really important work of, like, protecting Rome's authority over against the state's authority. And it wasn't even so much he's just like, no, no, no, like, pope... what the pope says goes. Like, no, he was protecting... he wanted the church to be able to enforce canon law.

and to be able to have the authority to rule over matters of church life, spiritual life.

GOBBA GOOL (46:51.111)
Right. But then at the same token, Rome is like playing a role in who gets to become king.

Tom Bombadil (47:00.81)
yes. Yeah, I mean, it's complex that that that controversy is super complex. But yeah, there's

GOBBA GOOL (47:04.108)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Tom Bombadil (47:13.582)
No matter which side you fall on, it's confusing, I think. So anyway, basically he doesn't seize that role, even though everybody kind of wanted him to do it. we find William Rufus at one time pledges that nobody would ever sit

at Canterbury while he lived. Basically he's like, there's no more Archbishop of Canterbury as long as I'm alive. He said that at Christmas one year and then by March he got really super sick and he was like, I think that this is because I'm a sinner. so he calls Anselm to confess his sins and to administer last rites and

Jim Salmon (47:48.141)
Hmm.

Tom Bombadil (48:11.994)
He also gives back the land and the money and he makes Anselm the Archbishop of Canterbury, or he nominated him, and the cleric, all the other clerics agree and they make him the Archbishop. Anyway, William Rufus gets better though, and he's going to continue to beef with Anselm a lot.

more after this. It kind of reads like the Egyptian Pharaoh, you know, in the story of the Exodus where it's like things get bad and he's like, okay, okay, okay. And then as soon as he's feeling better, he's like, never mind, never mind, you know, back to being a jerk. Like that's William Rufus. Anselm didn't want to take the post at first, but eventually he does. then he, even after he becomes a bishop,

Jim Salmon (48:57.437)
Mm, okay.

Tom Bombadil (49:10.244)
He continues to have these arguments with William Rufus and this is what this is. I think it's hilarious. So Rufus wants him to pay this tax. I think that may have had to do with the first crusade and he wanted him to pay him a thousand, a thousand pounds. Let's just say, and Anselm was like, well, I'll pay you 500. And William Rufus is like,

Basically saying you know, I made you Archbishop you kind of owe me so you're need to pay me a thousand pounds and And sounds like actually not only are we not gonna do that counteroffer We're not doing that and I'm going to do what I want and enforce canon law Which is what I've been wanting to do in particular against incestuous marriages, which must have been a problem at the time and

Jim Salmon (49:44.461)
Hmm.

Tom Bombadil (50:08.378)
So he kind of like doubles down. He's like, actually I'm not paying you and I'm going to do this other thing that you don't want me to do. And he kind of just kind of tells William Rufus to nut up or shut up basically. And Rufus kind of backs down. And then this is a quote from Wikipedia, which I thought was hilarious. Listen to this. When a group of bishops subsequently suggested that William might now settle for the original song.

Anselm replied that he had already given the money to the poor and that he disdained to purchase his master's favor as he would a horse or ass. Yep.

Jim Salmon (50:39.362)
Ha ha ha ha

Jim Salmon (50:44.814)
That's awesome. He's like, oops, sorry, I already took this ransom money and I gave it to the needy and the widows.

Tom Bombadil (50:50.49)
Yup. Yup. Sorry. Offer has expired.

Jim Salmon (50:55.662)
blackmail money is off to do the Lord's work.

Tom Bombadil (50:58.958)
Yup. And then Rufus is like, I hated him before, I hate him now and shall hate him still more hereafter. So this is the situation between the Archbishop of Canterbury and the king. It was at this time that Anselm kind of holds up in Canterbury and starts working on another important work of his, the Cura Deus Homo, which is Why God Became Man.

Jim Salmon (51:10.284)
Mm-hmm

Jim Salmon (51:27.374)
Hmm.

Tom Bombadil (51:28.04)
And this is where, this is kind of connected to the quote that I read at the beginning, which was that he didn't want to necessarily prove Christian doctrine to allow for faith, but to confirm through logic what was already held in faith. And so this is a quote from Anselm. I have been often and most earnestly requested by many, both personally and by letter, that I would hand down in writing the proofs of a certain doctrine of our faith.

which I am accustomed to give to inquirers, for they say that these proofs gratify them and are considered sufficient. This they ask, not for the sake of attaining to faith by means of reason, but that they may be gladdened by understanding and meditating on those things which they believe, and that as far as possible they may be always ready to convince anyone who demands of them a reason of that hope which is in us.

Jim Salmon (52:20.046)
Hmm.

Tom Bombadil (52:22.48)
So seems like Anselm understands God gave him a mind that can kind of unpack philosophical and theological issues like a, honestly, like kind of like geometry proofs. He's giving proofs for God's existence. He's giving proofs for, you know, the incarnation, why these things had to be. But he's like, I'm not doing this so that people can just feel smarter. I'm doing this to increase the faith of those who are inquiring.

Jim Salmon (52:47.31)
Mm-hmm.

Tom Bombadil (52:52.036)
and also so that they would be able to give an answer to those who inquires basically for apologetics.

Jim Salmon (52:57.758)
Ansem seems to be a good kind of rebuttal to the argument that the church kind of went through this dark ages period and, you know, it was just a bunch of, you know, peasants and there weren't really any theological breakthroughs and the church was totally enmeshed with the government in ways that made it corrupt and kind of flaccid. I think this is a perfect example that like, you know, idolatry, cultural idolatry was being called out.

apologetics was developing, theological, like theories of atonement were developing, and Ansem was doing so while engaging the higher-ups and engaging the conflicts of this time. So yeah, I think he's a good indicator that the church wasn't asleep at the wheel during this time in history at all.

GOBBA GOOL (53:47.513)
You know what's crazy? We haven't pointed it out yet, but Anselm is doing all of this, like, literally while the Crusades are going on. Yeah. Yeah, no, I mean, but it just goes to show that the world is so big, that there's all this other stuff going on, and, like, everything that we just did a massive series on is happening while everything Tommy just talked about is happening.

Jim Salmon (53:56.387)
Mmm. I was wondering about that that little overlap

Jim Salmon (54:03.801)
Mm-hmm.

Tom Bombadil (54:13.583)
Yep.

Jim Salmon (54:14.829)
Exactly, yeah. Yeah, so he was appointed as Archbishop of Canterbury in 1093, which would have been two years before Pope Urban's sermon at Claremont. So yeah, everything's happening.

GOBBA GOOL (54:32.267)
That's right.

Tom Bombadil (54:33.848)
So speaking of urban, one of the jobs of the pope, and this was kind of just a long-standing tradition in the church, was that the pope was supposed to issue what's called the pallium. You've just got to Google this to see what it looks like. It's part of an archbishop's robes or something he wears over his robes that signifies his office. And this piece of clerical dress was supposed to come directly from Rome.

they attributed a lot of significance to it as far as like church office went. So for whatever reason, like William constantly stonewalled Anselm on this. And so in 1095, Anselm was like, I have to travel to Rome to get this pallium. Like it's what archbishops do, I'm going to Rome to do this. And William's like, no, you're not. And so they have this council.

And the reason why William was stonewalling him is because he constantly wanted to place himself over the church or over the archbishop. He's like, you serve me, not the other way around. And so he's always trying to find any way to kind of edge some authority over Anselm. And so they eventually send this guy named Walter secretly to go get the pallium.

And they want, I think what was going on here is that William Rufus is like, you go get the pallium and then you bring it back to me and then I'll give it to him when I'm ready. Or like, you know, when he kind of bows the knee to me, I'll give it to him. So they do that. And Walter goes and he gets the pallium and he gets back and

William

Tom Bombadil (56:34.128)
The other thing that William does is he acknowledges Urban as pope. So you remember, think Taylor talked about this. There's like the pope and the anti-pope at this time. So there's some controversy about who's the real pope. William's like, I'll acknowledge Urban as pope as long as he gives you the pallium. So he gets back. William says that Urban's the pope. And then Walter doesn't do what William wants, which is to help depose Anselm. So now William, he's got the pallium now. And he's like.

okay. does anyone want to buy it? You know, basically like, I'll make you the archivist. You buy it. Nobody, nobody tries to buy it. Then he tries to get Anselm to pay for it, which Anselm refuses to do. and then he's, and then he's like, okay, well, well I'll give it to you, but like, I'm going to bestow it to you. So, you know, come on over to my house. You know, I'll, I'll

Jim Salmon (57:05.249)
Gosh.

Jim Salmon (57:26.644)
Hmm.

Tom Bombadil (57:27.126)
I'll bestow this signal, your office upon you and Anselm's like, nope, I'm not doing that either. So eventually finally the pallium shows up just laid on the altar at Canterbury and Anselm gets it. So again, Anselm gets his way by just having that dog in him and being like, I'm not doing it. Like I'm not doing what you So eventually he, I'm gonna have to speed through some of this.

Jim Salmon (57:46.956)
Mm.

Tom Bombadil (57:57.104)
Anselm gets exiled by William eventually and he goes and he spends time in Rome and while he's in Rome he's working side by side with Urban and Urban commissions him to prepare a defense of the Western doctrine of the procession of the Holy Spirit against representatives of the Greek Church. So remember at this time in history, you know, this is around the time of the Great Schism and they're trying to figure out, you know, how do we keep the church together and Anselm is like

Jim Salmon (58:17.207)
Mmm.

Tom Bombadil (58:26.736)
kind of a foremost scholar of the time. Pope Urban is like, I want you to write a defense of the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son.

Jim Salmon (58:37.829)
so he's basically asking for a defense of the the filial the filioque. Yeah, that's wild. Okay.

Tom Bombadil (58:42.425)
Alee-o-kwe.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so he does that. He attends the Council of Bari where he gives the defense for the filioque and the use of unleavened bread in the Eucharist before 185 bishops.

GOBBA GOOL (59:01.505)
Dude, Urban Tapped is, I did not know that that happened. So Urban Tapped is Top Dog, basically.

Tom Bombadil (59:05.104)
Yeah.

Tom Bombadil (59:09.71)
He did, yep. He was the big guns for this conversation. And Anselm's arguments on the topic, I think can be found in his writings, the Dei Procession Spiritus Santi. So you have some important work being done there concerning the Filioque, which is really cool. I hadn't known that prior either.

GOBBA GOOL (59:10.896)
Wow.

Tom Bombadil (59:39.728)
Now there's a new king in England, Henry I, and on Michaelmas in 1102, Anselm was finally able to convene a general church council at London, establishing the Gregorian reform in the church. So I think as long as Anselm had been archbishop, he always wanted to establish this reform in the church, kind of societal reform, and he never could do it because of the beefs with Rufus.

And then a new king comes in and invites him back. So Henry I invites him back and he, let's see here, the council that he called prohibited marriage, concubinage, and drunkenness to all of those in holy orders. And it condemns sodomy and simony. Simony is the selling of clerical offices. And it also regulated clerical dress.

Anselm also obtained a resolution against the British slave trade. Henry supported Anselm's reforms and his authority over the English church, but continued to try to assert his own authority over Anselm. These reforms that he was doing were mainly concerning, here's how priests are going to have to act in this ecclesiastical sea. After that,

Jim Salmon (01:00:59.991)
Mm-hmm.

Tom Bombadil (01:01:07.024)
He ends up getting exiled again. let's see here. He gets his way in 1107. There's finally an agreement between the king and the archbishop. It's called the Concordat of London. Henry formally renounced, I'm reading from Wikipedia again, Henry formally renounced the right of English kings.

to invest the bishops of the church. So Henry's like, English kings aren't going to have to do with making bishops anymore. The remaining two years of Anselm's life were spent in the duties of his archbishopric. He, without getting into the details of how he did it, he basically gets the archbishop of York to come under the authority of the archbishop of Canterbury. And...

Jim Salmon (01:01:45.302)
Hmm.

Tom Bombadil (01:02:05.658)
from his deathbed and some anathematized all who failed to recognize Canterbury's primacy over all the English church. Yeah. And as he was on his deathbed, he also announced himself content, except that he had a triatus in mind on the origin of the soul and did not know once he was gone if another was likely to compose it. So I love that he's like dying. He's like, I actually had something else I wanted to write about, but I didn't.

Jim Salmon (01:02:12.875)
dang.

Jim Salmon (01:02:31.149)
He's like, I'm actually really upset about this.

Tom Bombadil (01:02:35.384)
Yep. He died on Holy Wednesday, 21st of April 1109, and his remains were translated to Canterbury Cathedral and laid at the head of his old friend, L'Enfant.

Jim Salmon (01:02:48.193)
Wow, man.

So he, mean, like, yeah, the, the dude's rap sheet is pretty extensive. Like there's the ontological arguments, there's the theological contributions, but even just like on a political level, like one, he, you know, contended a lot with the investiture controversy, but he also seems to really contribute to, the status that the Archbishop of Canterbury has, which even in the Anglican church today, I mean, a lot of Anglicans rightfully don't acknowledge the Archbishop of Canterbury.

but historically it's a very significant role in the English Church.

Tom Bombadil (01:03:23.544)
Yeah, I'd be really curious to hear like, maybe even our boy Ben Lansing to talk about like, did this kind of like lay some groundwork in England that led to the ability of the English church to do its own thing later on with Anglicanism? I'd be curious.

Jim Salmon (01:03:37.333)
It makes me wonder, yeah.

Jim Salmon (01:03:44.812)
Yeah, because we're still 400 years away from the Reformation, which is crazy. I shoot, I mean, I think you could argue that even stuff like the investiture controversy, like this constant...

kind of squabbling between the magistrate and the church clerics is going to be a contributing factor to even the English Reformation specifically. yeah, the seeds for the Reformation basically started probably at Pentecost. So, you know, write that down kids. Did you like that, Taylor?

Tom Bombadil (01:04:15.76)
Yeah, yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (01:04:20.686)
That was a good one, That was good.

Jim Salmon (01:04:22.029)
Thanks, man.

Alright, shoot! Well, dude, awesome stuff. I found a quote that I loved from Ansem that I want to read. It's off of Goodreads, so... Well, I mean, I think that's pretty legit. But it's from Proslogion, which is one of the texts that Thomas referenced in it. It's come now insignificant man, fly for a moment from your affairs, escape for a little while from the tumult of your thoughts, put aside now your weighty cares and leave your worrisome toils, abandon yourself for a little to God.

and rest for a little in him." I'm just like, what a sweet little like, you know, one thing I love about a lot of these authors is they can write really heavy theological treatises and all that, but they can also just write with such devotional like affection, which I think is so beautiful. So shout out.

Tom Bombadil (01:04:55.984)
Hmm.

Tom Bombadil (01:05:11.663)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (01:05:11.992)
Yeah, Tommy said something. Tommy said something great earlier, which is like the why we do this. And Anselm, the greats do this not for the pursuit of the academy, but to build up the church. So Anselm was one of the greats. And Tommy's one of the greats for building up the church through this podcast.

Jim Salmon (01:05:28.213)
Exactly. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Tom Bombadil (01:05:37.528)
Hahaha

Jim Salmon (01:05:38.219)
and building up the podcast through the church.

GOBBA GOOL (01:05:42.542)
That feels bad.

Tom Bombadil (01:05:42.692)
Yes.

Jim Salmon (01:05:43.886)
So don't forget buy me a coffee the links in the box links in the episode details No, yeah, man. Well It's not goodbye. It's see you later. Right Thomas We also live in the same city. So it's not like we're Not like we're getting we're too far off

Tom Bombadil (01:05:49.773)
huh

GOBBA GOOL (01:05:49.912)
Yeah. Yes.

Tom Bombadil (01:05:59.152)
That's right.

GOBBA GOOL (01:06:02.049)
Yep.

Tom Bombadil (01:06:05.52)
It might make us get together more often though. Cause like John said at the beginning of the episode, I mean, we used to see each other like four times a week and you for hours at a time and like now these days we only see each other on, on Riverside recording studio. Yeah. Holy day.

Jim Salmon (01:06:11.959)
Gosh, all the time, bro, yeah.

Jim Salmon (01:06:17.973)
Holy days. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah So yeah, well I agree Well gang, thank you guys all for listening Thomas great episode, sir. Thank you Yeah

GOBBA GOOL (01:06:21.742)
Mmm.

Jim Salmon (01:06:32.789)
Leave us a comment. Make sure you subscribe. If you're watching us on YouTube, subscribe, follow us on. dude, we also hit a thousand followers on Spotify like a month ago, forgot to talk about it. And we still have to do a discord party.

GOBBA GOOL (01:06:45.09)
Yeah, we owe them a... We owe them this Discord party. We'll do it this summer. You have our word.

Tom Bombadil (01:06:50.909)
Ooh, I'll join for that. We still need to do our Age of Empires game, too.

Jim Salmon (01:06:52.277)
Yeah. yeah.

Yeah, or dude, Jackson put me onto that Crusader King. It's on sale. No, dude, I don't know. It looks cool though.

GOBBA GOOL (01:06:57.751)
Yes.

save.

Tom Bombadil (01:07:01.522)
Crusader Kings three. Yeah, I saw his comment about that. Have you been playing it? Dude, it's it's like this game. I've got a buddy who plays it a lot. My buddy Nick plays with a ton. I played it for a little bit. It is an investment of time like. Like it's one of those games where you spend more time with it paused, just trying to wrap your mind around everything that's happening.

Jim Salmon (01:07:12.887)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (01:07:18.263)
See, that's the problem with these historical games.

Jim Salmon (01:07:24.417)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (01:07:27.853)
Yeah.

Tom Bombadil (01:07:28.686)
than you do playing. So if you like strategy, it's really fun. yeah.

Jim Salmon (01:07:31.767)
That sounds awesome. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (01:07:33.55)
Bro, it's like $15 right now.

Jim Salmon (01:07:35.957)
I know, it's spring sale man, spring sale.

GOBBA GOOL (01:07:38.53)
Or you could get all the DLC and the game for $32.

Jim Salmon (01:07:43.182)
or we can just play Gang Beasts again. So, I don't know. That's a fun game. Alright, alright guys. Thank you all so much for listening. We will talk to you again next week. Actually, maybe Friday. We'll see. Alright, talk to you later.

Tom Bombadil (01:07:56.784)
God bless you.

GOBBA GOOL (01:07:57.218)
Bye bye.