127. The History of Just War Theory: Augustine's Most Controversial Take (maybe)

Just War Theory seems to be a phrase that's thrown around a lot lately. But where does it come from? Who does it come from? And why is it still relevant today?

For this episode, John and Taylor are going to dive into the deep cuts of none other than Augustine himself. We'll explore the oft-quote passages from the Contra Faustum where this idea originated that would shape hundreds of years of Western combat. 

And if you just guessed that we're easing our way back into the Crusades, well you're right pal. 

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Transcript

Jim Salmon (00:00.741)
Hey everybody, welcome to Church History for Chumps, my name is John Simon and I am here with your Spotify's second favorite tailor, Taylor Treadway.

GOBBA GOOL (00:10.304)
And I'm here with your Spotify second favorite, John Simon.

Jim Salmon (00:16.539)
Second favorite what?

GOBBA GOOL (00:18.51)
I don't know what a second favorite is, man.

Jim Salmon (00:20.613)
No, you're the second favorite tailor.

GOBBA GOOL (00:24.302)
Jim Salmon (00:25.231)
Yeah, like I'm assuming there's a lot of Taylor Swift fans out there. maybe some Jonathan Taylor Thomas fans out there. I don't know.

GOBBA GOOL (00:34.968)
Well, there's John Taylor. There's John, the guy, he's saying he plays the piano and sings. What's his last name? Nope, that he plays guitar.

Jim Salmon (00:38.319)
John Taylor? Yep.

Jim Salmon (00:47.547)
John Mayer?

John, John Elton, John Elton.

GOBBA GOOL (00:55.754)
Elton John? Yeah, John Elton? No, he's like a pop guy. I can't think of him right now. Of course, the second...

Jim Salmon (01:04.071)
He's in his name is John. Like John Lennon, but he also plays the guitar. Hey guys, welcome to church history for chumps. And we know what our names are. So thank you guys so much for listening. Um, Taylor, how are you doing today, man? Oh, we have it. We have a sponsorship please.

GOBBA GOOL (01:07.086)
It's not like John. there's that guy too. He also plays the guitar. That's not John. Where we know what we're talking about.

That's right.

GOBBA GOOL (01:27.308)
We have a sponsorship. So this episode is actually sponsored by Gateway Seminary's Andrew Fuller Conference. So you do. Tyler, if you guys remember, Tyler came on. Tyler Sanders came on and talked about who Andrew Fuller was a little bit. Well, Gateway is having a conference at our main location in Southern California. It's May 28 through the 30th. And it's called Printin' Piety.

Jim Salmon (01:37.657)
I know that name. Yeah!

GOBBA GOOL (01:56.77)
the eminent usefulness of Andrew Fuller's legacy. And guys, when I say all of the Baptist historians are going to be there, I truly mean that. So some of you guys might know David Bebington. Tyler referenced his Bebington's quadrilateral. There's Michael Haken. Michael Haken from Southern Seminaries there, Peter Morton from the UK.

Jim Salmon (02:12.559)
Ho ho ho ho!

Mm-hmm, big math guy.

Jim Salmon (02:23.847)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (02:25.89)
He's a huge Spurgeon scholar. We actually used his book on our Spurgeon episode. And then Nathan Finn, who helped write The Baptist Story. If you're on video, you see me holding up the book here. And then our own Dr. Chris Chun. And there's a ton of papers being presented. Tyler, our esteemed guest from a few weeks ago, is actually presenting a paper. So guys, this conference is like stupid cheap. How much is it?

Jim Salmon (02:34.545)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (02:55.458)
I'm pulling it up right now.

Jim Salmon (02:55.995)
know. I bet probably with all that you told me maybe $150 a day. $45 in this? That's amazing. Guys, it costs me $45 to drive to the gas station these days. That is such a steal. Wow. If you're in the area, if you're in the area, I'm just saying, mean, stop by.

GOBBA GOOL (03:02.2)
Try 45 bucks for... No, 40... 45... Yes.

Yeah, so we're like supplementing.

GOBBA GOOL (03:19.532)
You're so good at hyping things up. Anyway.

It's worth it. It's worth it for sure. We'll have the link in the show notes or you can just Google Andrew Fuller Conference and that'll pop up. it's gonna be a good time and you can meet yours truly.

Jim Salmon (03:25.667)
Stop by, yeah.

Jim Salmon (03:32.291)
I actually reached out. I will not be there actually, but thank you for being considerate.

GOBBA GOOL (03:39.05)
I said yours truly well that does sound like it could be talking about you because you're yeah I we you can yes okay

Jim Salmon (03:43.654)
Yeah, cause it's, that's a second person possessive. Yeah. Mine truly. That sounds like me. I'm actually, I actually got in contact with some of the planners of the organization because I wanted to pitch, the name for the conference, but I didn't hear back. I'm a little, Andrew Fuller.

GOBBA GOOL (04:02.296)
What was the name you pitched?

Jim Salmon (04:08.281)
I hardly know her. A Baptist story.

GOBBA GOOL (04:13.794)
Yeah, I'm surprised they didn't get back to you. That's genius. You know, maybe they, I'll tell them to check the spam folder for next time.

Jim Salmon (04:14.53)
You

Yeah, tell them to yeah, because I do, I email them a lot, a lot of mostly just jokes. It wouldn't surprise me if they haven't read it. That's okay. I'm still kind of patching up my relationship with the Baptists, man. So, you know, I don't know. I don't know. There was something that happened once. yeah, you know what it is? Okay, let me ask you this. How often does your church celebrate communion?

GOBBA GOOL (04:33.11)
You're coming in though. You're getting there.

GOBBA GOOL (04:45.102)
We do it once a month.

GOBBA GOOL (04:50.306)
So Baptist tradition is quarterly.

Jim Salmon (04:50.383)
okay.

That's what my church does. And there is a chance, there is a good chance. Shout out to Aaron and Ned, if you guys are listening, because I know you guys actually like the show a lot. This is not at all to be disrespectful. I love the church, I love David, I respect my spiritual authorities. But once a quarter, as a former reformed Dutchie boy, just shatters my heart to pieces, bro. It just devastates me, man.

GOBBA GOOL (04:55.618)
Yeah. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (05:17.644)
Your heart just kills you.

Jim Salmon (05:22.023)
Because remember, I was a pastor, so I had to write, I had to incorporate the Lord's Supper into every sermon. It was always kind of like where every sermon led into. It was something that we would administer. It was very, I consider it at the high point of every worship service. And now it's the high point of four times a year. It's like, we celebrate communion.

GOBBA GOOL (05:22.242)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (05:31.918)
you

GOBBA GOOL (05:43.276)
And you better hope you don't miss. You better hope you don't miss that Sunday. Yeah.

Jim Salmon (05:46.499)
It's awful. It's awful. We celebrate communion as often as I change out my AC filters, man. This is this is problematic.

GOBBA GOOL (05:52.082)
no. Yeah. That'd be a fun discussion to have another day, right? Like the necessity of the sacraments or the ordinances.

Jim Salmon (06:00.103)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (06:04.657)
You know what? I'd like to write a historical paper about the relationships, the relationship between Baptists, Protestants, and spite. Because when I think about how they approach a lot of things, I think they were like, sacrament? No, we're calling that an ordinance now. and baptizing infants? Yeah, we'll wait until they ask to be baptized.

GOBBA GOOL (06:24.098)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (06:28.556)
Well, you're, I just, told myself I wasn't going to talk about Anabaptists tonight. I said, look man, there's a lot there. We'll get into that. We'll get into all of that during the Reformation.

Jim Salmon (06:35.463)
You

Jim Salmon (06:40.537)
Okay, alright, alright, I know, I know that's off topic, I know there's a lot of stuff we have to talk about. We are, as you mentioned earlier, starting to ease back into the Crusades, is that right? Okay, so that'll be good, that'll be good.

GOBBA GOOL (06:50.74)
Yes, yes. So, so this week we're going to talk about just war theory. And then next week, you're going to do an episode on St. Teresa.

Jim Salmon (07:04.103)
St. St. Bernard, Bernard of Clairvaux.

GOBBA GOOL (07:08.462)
what? Teresa of Avila. Did I just did I make that name up in my head? But she's like way later than the Crusades.

Jim Salmon (07:12.099)
We talked about this. No, Teresa Aval- she's-

Well, so she was from the Carmelite order that some of the like former crusaders, but this was like, yeah, this is, this is like 1500s because, Teresa of Avila is part of the counter-reformation where all the Catholics are going to try to be like, please don't leave. And it's, it's kind of a banger. Yeah. but no, we're going to, mean, one day, one day, but, we will be talking about.

GOBBA GOOL (07:29.164)
That's right.

Right.

GOBBA GOOL (07:36.288)
Right. We actually love the Lord, I promise. Yeah, I don't know.

Jim Salmon (07:45.308)
Bernard of Clairvaux next week because honestly, this is embarrassing. I'll talk more about this Bernard of Clairvaux. I read so many of his works, but I didn't know him historically at all. So I was just like, what a cool monk. He has so many cool writings. He writes about song of Solomon and the love of God and he's a mystic and he's so cool. All the reformers like him. And then you look at his historical record and it's like, he loved the crusades. Like he was a big advocate. And now I feel like

GOBBA GOOL (08:10.894)
Mmm. See, it's all messy.

Jim Salmon (08:14.343)
Yeah, it's all messy. Yeah, I mean, and that, but that doesn't make me love him less. It makes me see him in the, the historical picture, but I still love him a lot. So anyways, just war.

GOBBA GOOL (08:18.414)
That's right.

Yep, that's good. Yeah, but just war. So this is a topic that has just been talked about ad nauseum. And I think there's still things to say on it. So I actually have a quote from none other than the two towers written by JRR Tolkien.

Jim Salmon (08:50.791)
okay.

GOBBA GOOL (08:51.074)
to start us off. this is right after, if you're familiar with the story, whether you watch the movies or read the books, this is in both. In The Two Towers, when Sam Frodo and Gollum are passing through Gondorian territory, they're getting close to Mordor, and they see the Harajrim marching with their big ollie fonts, right? And at first, they're

like amazed and then Faramir and his Rangers ambush them and a fight breaks out. And one of the Oliphants, which is like this huge war elephant, Frodo and Sam are like elevated a little bit and Gollum are elevated. And one of the Harajrim on one of these elephants gets struck by an arrow, flies off and actually lands dead next to them. And this is the quote.

It was Sam's first view of battle, of a battle of men against men, and he did not like it much. He was glad that he could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from, and if he was really evil of heart or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home, and if he would have rather have stayed there in peace. So that's chapter four of Herbs and Stewed Rabbits.

Jim Salmon (09:58.683)
Hmm

GOBBA GOOL (10:19.372)
the two towers. And I think this quote encapsulates so much of what Tolkien wanted to express and honestly what so many of us feel when we think about war. So it's not a happy occasion, occasion there's innocence. And then we have Samwise here, who's driven by this noble cause of destroying the ring. He's sitting in the midst of such carnage, but yet he doesn't go back home. Right? So what kept Sam there?

Jim Salmon (10:46.117)
Hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (10:49.39)
And obviously, Sir Tolkien was a Christian. He was a World War I veteran. And he would have been very familiar with this idea of just war theory or in the traditional Latin. Hopefully, I don't mess this up. Bellum Eustum. So there you go. That's my cold open. Not as fancy as yours. Not as fancy as yours.

Jim Salmon (11:10.247)
That's good. No, I, no, no, no, I, I liked, I liked the, the, the, I don't want to call it a pop culture reference because it makes it sound like you just talked about Olivia Rodrigo or something, but no, that was good. That actually, that, that, that, I feel like that was a good kind of palate cleanser to get into the show. That was like a nice little strip of ginger.

GOBBA GOOL (11:22.018)
I know, dude, I know. You and I are.

GOBBA GOOL (11:29.548)
You and I are such old souls. We're such old souls now that we're like, yes, let me reference the pop culture phenomenon known as the Lord of the Rings.

Jim Salmon (11:36.423)
You

That's right. I did have to look up what a Harajrim was.

GOBBA GOOL (11:44.108)
The Easterlings is another word for them. Eastern, Easternlings.

Jim Salmon (11:46.363)
The Easterlings, okay. They do, they're kinda cloaked, right? They kinda look like Middle Eastern ninjas a little bit.

GOBBA GOOL (11:56.076)
Yeah, they're, mean, they were, he kind of was inspired off of like Eastern Asian culture for them. So yes. they're, yes. And so yes, one of them died and poor Sam had never seen death before. So just war theory or as we said, Bellum Eustum. I mean, I feel like this is even taught in like high school classes if your history teacher is good enough, right?

Jim Salmon (12:01.585)
Sure. Okay. Yeah, no, these are really interesting.

Jim Salmon (12:12.859)
Dang.

GOBBA GOOL (12:26.004)
I know I had, when I took ethics at an undergrad level, we had a whole week on this. There are countless pages written on it. So to move in a somewhat cohesive manner, we are going to have a vague definition from two sources. And then we're going to look only at one primary source. And I think that's going to keep us busy for the whole time.

Jim Salmon (12:54.234)
Okay.

GOBBA GOOL (12:54.382)
So I actually, I'm throwing a dog, a bone to the dogs of the Catholic. Dude, I can't, I'm so rude to the Catholic. I'm so bad. Rome, I'm sorry. I'm gonna quote your catechism though right now. From this is the 1992 catechism. Paragraph 2309. And these are their...

Jim Salmon (12:59.687)
You're throwing a dog to the Catholic Church. That sounds very aggressive.

That's alright.

GOBBA GOOL (13:21.794)
There are four strict conditions for, quote, legitimate defense by military force. So here's the four for them. The damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain. Number two, all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective. Three, there must be serious prospects of success. And four, the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated.

And then the Baptists have in Article 16 of the Baptist Faith and Message, this Peace and War, it is the duty of Christians to seek peace with all men on principles of righteousness. In accordance with the spirit and teachings of Christ, they should do all in their power to put an end to war. The true remedy for the war spirit is the gospel of our Lord. The supreme need of this world is the acceptance of his teachings in all the affairs of many nations and the practical application of his law of love.

Christian people throughout the world should pray for the reign of the Prince of Peace. So you kind of have two vastly different spectrums of Christianity and their sort of understanding of war. Obviously, the Baptist faith and message is vague. It's very vague on many things on purpose. But all that to say is you answer this question in your head of like, what kept Sam there? Like, why didn't he just leave and say, well, I don't want to have anything to do with this?

Jim Salmon (14:26.279)
Hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (14:52.322)
People are dying. This is nasty. Well, in his mind, there was a big picture of, I'm helping Mr. Frodo take the ring to Mordor to destroy evil. Now, what's funny in the Catholic definition, I was thinking when it comes to poor Samwise and Frodo's quest, how the third one is there must be a serious prospect of success. I'm like, don't know if, as they set out from Rivendell, I don't know if they had that.

Jim Salmon (15:16.199)
Hmm.

Jim Salmon (15:21.959)
the good guys. Yeah, I mean, I'm glad they pushed along. I think in fiction, I don't think you need that. Because you have to assume, yeah, good will over. But yeah, I mean, if you're some small, like, tribal country trying to take down the Soviet Union, you know, maybe, maybe don't give the hundred men army that you have, it's not worth it.

GOBBA GOOL (15:21.986)
But, yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (15:31.882)
Right.

GOBBA GOOL (15:39.438)
Right?

GOBBA GOOL (15:45.006)
For justice and peace, charge! Yeah. Right. So there is, if you go to the Wikipedia page, John and I openly confess that we do views Wikipedia, not as our main sources, but it's a great launching point. know, YouTube, Wikipedia, when you're doing research, it's a great way to...

kind of find good secondary sources very quickly and primary sources. Wikipedia on just war has a whole discussion on the kind of the ancient discussion of just war. I think when I say just war, what immediately comes to your mind, John?

Jim Salmon (16:28.913)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (16:35.911)
up St.

GOBBA GOOL (16:37.216)
Yeah, see, that's what I feel like maybe secular, the secular academy at present is trying to take away from his dominance on the discussion. I'm not sure, I'm not sure.

Jim Salmon (16:50.641)
interesting. Okay, yeah. Well, he was like the grandfather of it. He's like the father of this ideal, right? And then the church has obviously had over a thousand years to toy with it.

GOBBA GOOL (16:59.223)
Yeah

GOBBA GOOL (17:03.922)
Yeah, so, 1,500 years actually, think about that. That's a long time. Yes, but guys, ever since people have been hitting each other with rocks and stones, like, there's probably been conversations about, this rock too big? Is this too mean? You know? Or were you allowed to use rock? I don't know. But yes, Augustine has typically given the crown for being the first to really provide

Jim Salmon (17:08.655)
Yeah, it's a long time. It's a lot of war.

Jim Salmon (17:22.459)
Right, yeah.

Jim Salmon (17:26.855)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (17:33.354)
a cohesive Christian framework for war. for the listeners, if you remember, we did an episode on Augustine. should go back and listen. Wasn't that my first episode?

Jim Salmon (17:36.741)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (17:45.509)
it was my, probably close, yeah. Actually give me a second and I'll tell you exactly what episode that is for all the people who want to listen to it.

GOBBA GOOL (17:47.202)
That was about a year ago. Wow.

So yeah, so Augustine was at the tail end of the golden age of the patristic era. And so he's writing in the late fourth century and early fifth century. And he's writing like before and after collapse of Rome. If you're not familiar with his work, I would highly recommend just head to newadvent.com and is it newadvent.org? Yes, dot org. And just start reading. That's the

Jim Salmon (18:15.207)
I think it is dot org.

GOBBA GOOL (18:20.374)
It's nice that all that's there.

Jim Salmon (18:20.577)
Augustin's one of those guys you can like find a PDF or you can find like an ebook that's like three dollars for his entire library which would take you you know the rest of your life to read yeah

GOBBA GOOL (18:28.11)
Yeah. 12 years. Yeah. Yeah. So there's good stuff. And one of the things that it's worth noting is that, so even these patristic fathers, they were not in unison over this issue. So like Basil, we also have an episode on, he wanted to withhold communion from Christian soldiers who shed blood. And even the Romans were actually not super happy to have Christians in the army because even like,

Jim Salmon (18:47.687)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (18:57.986)
the pagans knew Christian doctrine did not benefit the state. Christians were known for being pacifists. And what you have during this patristic era is this shift. You have these pagan leaders fighting pagan wars with pagan means, and you have a bunch of Christians saying, I don't really have any interest in that. And now you suddenly have Christian leaders and the church is confused.

Jim Salmon (19:03.143)
Mmm

Jim Salmon (19:28.283)
Which is why think Augustine was the first real advocate of it, was because he was a very significant preacher during a time when the script had flipped. Whereas, yeah, you'd look at someone like Basil or Origen or Tertullian, these are all, they're under pagan, very powerful emperors in Rome.

GOBBA GOOL (19:41.42)
Right.

GOBBA GOOL (19:48.834)
All right, well, Basil's interesting because he's sort of living through... Basil knew Christian emperors, right? But yes, you know, even fast forward, this is off the top of my head, I want to say Basil was like mid-fourth century. Is that right? Yeah. So fast forward 50-ish years, give or take.

Jim Salmon (19:57.223)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (20:08.485)
Basil? Yeah, yeah. And I'm gonna confirm.

GOBBA GOOL (20:15.598)
of this evolution and explosion of Christianity in the Roman Empire. And now you have Augustine sitting down and he's tackling this. But what's interesting, Augustine never really sat down and did what we would have hoped, which is write a nice little book called War and didn't have chapters and nice little bullet points arguing everything. His, the majority of his

of articulation of war actually comes in like a polemic against contra- it's called contra-phostum and it's against phostum the manichaean so he has this 33 book volume and he uses a lot of scripture and he is debating the manichaeans but it's in book 22 that you

Jim Salmon (20:55.292)
Hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (21:13.396)
see this articulation of war. And the reason he has to do this is because the Manicheans, I'm going to quiz you right now. Do you remember what they believed?

Jim Salmon (21:22.587)
Yeah, they were big-time duelists, they were Gnostics too, right?

GOBBA GOOL (21:26.71)
Yes, and they, good job, and they believed that the Old Testament God was a big meaning and evil. And so Augustine in his work against Manichaeanism is having to now explain why what God did in the Old Testament is not evil, and then he's having to take, he's having to help basically reconcile these different beliefs, bring them together, right?

Jim Salmon (21:31.79)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

GOBBA GOOL (21:55.418)
or not these different, he's not trying to bring beliefs together rather. He's trying to correct the Manichaeans and in a way that's using scripture. So before we jump into what Augustine actually said, I want to put this disclaimer out there. So I cannot express how many thousands and thousands of pages have been written on not just just war theory, but like specifically on this exact primary source.

that we're going to be reading and combing through. And so like, I'm not an ethics scholar. I'm a fledgling historian. And I almost want to say the views expressed here are not my own, but belong to Saint Augustine, right? So this property is of Saint Augustine, or whatever the NFL says before they scare you into not showing it at church.

Jim Salmon (22:35.281)
Hehehehehe

Jim Salmon (22:47.749)
Yeah, it's like we're discussing the history of a theory that of course has lots and lots of different opinions. So just because we're discussing it doesn't mean we're necessarily espousing it.

GOBBA GOOL (23:00.014)
Yes, we will talk at the end about what we think. I'm just trying to like, I'm just trying to get it out there. This is what Augustine said. And here's kind of like a summary of what Augustine said, and then we can talk about it. So as I said, this is Book 22 of Contra Fostum, and it starts at Chapter 69, and it goes through Chapter 75.

Jim Salmon (23:04.103)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (23:13.351)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (23:24.042)
that's not as much as I thought. Wow.

GOBBA GOOL (23:25.674)
No, and remember when you hear chapters, dear listeners, if you've never looked at Augustine's work, chapters are sometimes only paragraphs. So he does write more on this in City of God and somewhere else. But from my understanding, the vast majority of what Augustine said on this topic is found where we're looking. And we are going to be reading a lot.

Jim Salmon (23:33.383)
It's pretty short, yeah.

Jim Salmon (23:51.558)
Okay.

GOBBA GOOL (23:55.298)
Augustine for this episode. So he sort of starts the discussion by talking about Moses killing of the Egyptian and Saul's persecution of the early church, right? And remember, he's writing to the Manichaeans who don't like the Old Testament, and they don't like portions of the New Testament either. So he's being specific in choosing these two examples. But this is what he says. For the fierce energy of Paul,

Jim Salmon (24:04.359)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (24:23.692)
When in his zeal for hereditary traditions, he persecuted the church, thinking that he was doing God's service was like a crop of weeds showing great signs of productiveness. It was the same in Peter when he took his sword out of its sheath to defend the Lord and cut off the right ear of an assailant, when the Lord rebuked him with something like a threat, saying, put up your sword into its sheath, for he that takes the sword shall perish by the sword." And so this is chapter 70.

But then he continues on, after that, after, I'm sorry, but that after this sin, Peter should become a pastor of the church was no more improper than that Moses, after smiting the Egyptians, should become the leader of the congregation. In both cases, the trespass originated not in veteran cruelty, but in a hasty zeal, which admitted of correction. In both cases, there was resentment against injury.

accompanied in one case by love for a brother and in the other by love, though still carnal, of the Lord. Here was evil to be subdued or rooted out, but the heart with such capacities needed only, like good soil, to be cultivated to make it fruitful in virtue." So in other words, their heart was in the right place. How they went

Jim Salmon (25:46.811)
They had good intentions.

GOBBA GOOL (25:48.28)
They had good intentions and how they went about it was wrong. So according to Gustin, it's possible to have zeal for the right thing, but go about it in the wrong way. And here's the important part. This is assuming that there is a right way to go about

Jim Salmon (26:05.903)
Well, that's what I wanted to highlight was when it says, the heart with such capacities needed only like good soil to be cultivated, to make it fruitful and virtue. He's kind of implying here that like, this was a act of violence that lacked virtue, but not because it was completely baseless because it was misguided, but you could redirect this same thing and make it virtuous.

GOBBA GOOL (26:30.338)
Right.

GOBBA GOOL (26:35.542)
Right, you know, Moses killing the Egyptian slaver, beaten, beaten somebody like, yeah, that wasn't right, but it came from a place of love. This was so convicting to me because I don't, I can, I have not killed anybody, thank the Lord. And I truly like, I.

Jim Salmon (26:36.368)
Okay.

Jim Salmon (26:53.819)
You've killed a few people, so...

GOBBA GOOL (27:00.62)
I'm grateful to God because I have this passion, this zeal. So for example, here's a little example, a little personal anecdote, if you will. Brandi and I, you know, we live in an apartment complex that has security. And I get the reports from the security. And I see sometimes like so-and-so was wandering around, you know, and the security guards always handle it great. They're always like, hey, man, you can't be here. What are you doing?

And I'm just, think the Lord has literally shielded me from ever seeing a trespasser that looks dangerous. Because I just am immediately going to be like, you are not supposed to be here. There's women and children here. How dare you? And know, and get on the ground. Yeah, exactly. I have a Nerf gun pulled on him.

Jim Salmon (27:48.465)
Get on the ground! Get on the ground! Put your hands on your head!

Yeah, was gonna say no weapon in hand. You're just pointing at this guy, making him freak out.

GOBBA GOOL (27:59.724)
Yeah, yeah, so this was this was kind of convicting for me and just a realization of like, yes, I can be I can be Peter You know wanting to slash this the soldier in half that he went for a kill shot, by the way You ever talk about that in sermons? Like Peter missed Right

Jim Salmon (28:05.795)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (28:17.19)
Oh yeah, like he wasn't just like, I'm gonna cut this guy's ear off. Like he was probably gonna cut his throat, right? And the dude probably, you know, flinched or something.

GOBBA GOOL (28:24.172)
No. Or he was just going to slash his head in half. I don't know. But yes, the idea here from Augustine is that you can have right motives but go about the wrong way. Now, you might say, well, what about being a soldier in general, right? There are a lot of Christians who would say that military service is not suitable for a Christian.

Jim Salmon (28:29.595)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (28:41.83)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (28:53.666)
They said it back then, like we said with Basil. And then they'll say it again today. But Augustine actually uses scripture to defend military service. He goes to Luke 3, which is John the Baptist portion of that narrative. And this is Luke 3, 14. So soldiers also asked him, and we, what shall we do? And he said to them, do not extort money from anyone by threats or by false accusations.

and be content with your wages. And Augustine points out, says, notice that John did not say stop being in the military.

Jim Salmon (29:27.332)
Hmm, okay.

Jim Salmon (29:35.076)
Yeah, keep your nose clean. You know, he's like, don't loot.

GOBBA GOOL (29:37.526)
Yeah, he basically said don't yeah, don't do unfair things in the military, right? Don't abuse your station. Don't abuse your power is the real, the real point here. So, so military service is A-OK according to Gustin and, Augustine continues on and he says, the real evils in war are love of violence, revengeful cruelty,

Jim Salmon (29:43.43)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (30:07.17)
fierce and implacable enmity, wild resistance, and the lust of power and such like. And it is generally to punish these things when force is required to inflict the punishment. That, in obedience to God or some lawful authority, good men undertake wars when they find themselves in such a position as regards the conduct of human affairs that right conduct requires them to act or to make others act in this way.

Jim Salmon (30:14.928)
Hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (30:38.176)
So the evils in war is not war itself, according to Gustin. It's a love of violence, it's cruelty, and a chase for power.

Jim Salmon (30:53.798)
Because if war itself can be just, then war isn't intrinsically wrong. It's the mindset, it's a sinful mindset behind it.

GOBBA GOOL (31:03.848)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, and he says, it is generally to punish these things. So in his, in Augustine's mind, the people doing the right thing in obedience to God or some other lawful authority was his exact line. The people doing the right thing are the people that are fighting against love of violence and cruelty and lust of power. So that right

Conduct requires them to act or it says or to make others act in this way So, you know meaning like heads of state and such So so the idea we have here so so Augustine has said at the start he has said you can have the right motives and now he is saying war can be right and

Now he's going to move into talking about, OK, how do we trust the people giving the commands of war? And remember, Faustus, the Manichean, is saying things like, well, God is evil for commanding war. So I think Augustine has already sort of poked a hole in that. And now he continues on in chapter 72. But says Faustus, it cannot be admitted that the true God, who is also good, ever gave such a command. I answer.

Such a command can be rightly given by no other than the true and good God, who alone knows the suitable command in every case and who alone is incapable of inflicting unmerited suffering on anyone. So for God to give a command for war, like in Augustine's mind, he's like, if anyone's qualified to do it, it's him. And so Augustine is sort of expressing a

Jim Salmon (32:42.374)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (32:53.765)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (32:58.626)
I think there's an underlying assumption that God is sovereign, God is all-knowing, God is all-wise. And then he also says he's also good, right? He's the true and good God. So we have to be able to trust him when it comes to those declarations of war. So that's more in relation to

Israel being commanded to fight, and particularly if someone wants to call it genocide, that's what they were called to do.

Jim Salmon (33:34.438)
Hmm.

Jim Salmon (33:41.637)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Those are, man. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's a whole other episode, other discussion, but yeah. What, what's interesting to me out, this is a little bit of a tangent, but I'll let you get back on, on topic. are you familiar with the dude? it's, it's John Mark Comer's church. bridge, Bridgetown. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (33:54.956)
That's fine. We have time. We're doing great on time.

GOBBA GOOL (34:05.592)
Dude, I was just talking about John Mark Comer with my neighbors like five minutes before we hit record. Yes.

Jim Salmon (34:11.302)
Really? Okay. I like him for the most part. I recognize that he's probably a little bit of a he's like a bucket of cold water for some of the people who are used to the young restless reforms dudes like Piper and Chandler's probably a little bit different. I'm not a huge fan of everything, but I I read I read one book. I liked it. It was cool. But no, it was interesting that I listened to a sermon.

put on by, I think, one of his associate pastors, and they were talking about that passage from Joshua, the early passage of what's referred to as the genocide. And it's so interesting. I feel like you can tell so much about the culture of a church based on how they approach that passage. Because I know that for me, when I was a pastor, that was a passage that was very uncomfortable and really trying to hit on, like,

GOBBA GOOL (34:48.206)
Mmm.

GOBBA GOOL (34:59.133)
Mmm.

Jim Salmon (35:09.222)
Do we know 100 %? Maybe not. We need to be okay with the fact that maybe this was more gruesome than we're comfortable with. We do need to recognize that when God does wrathful things, he's still just, but there is still mercy, you know, trying to hold that balance. This dude was straight up like, here's the thing you need to know about this passage. This language is exaggerated. They did not kill every woman, or child, 100%. And I was just like, this dude just...

just jumped the shark, just avoided all nuance altogether. And I just like, I was like, I've never even heard that presented as a traditional view, like interpretation before. So I'm sure there are some that take that view, but to not even express that like some people see it as more literal, he was just like, worry not good Christians.

GOBBA GOOL (35:40.352)
Wow

GOBBA GOOL (35:56.301)
Mmm.

GOBBA GOOL (36:00.27)
would have to talk to somebody who really knows Hebrew and

Jim Salmon (36:06.179)
It's and that's the thing. It's it's so tricky. It's so and then the funny thing was I was telling that story to a buddy of mine who for the longest was a catechumen in the in the Orthodox Church and he kind of laughed because he was like, he's like, yeah, you know, in the Orthodox tradition, it's not really there's like there's really not that much emphasis placed on what what's literally true or not. He's like, he's like, we kind of mine it for spiritual truths. So when we look at that passage, it's like

God is conquering all of the evil spiritual pagan stuff and there's a complete destruction there. But they don't really care if it's like a genocide or not, because in their minds they're like, that's not the point of the text to begin with. So it's just like I said, you can tell so much based on what posture you take with this very war-y kind of passage.

GOBBA GOOL (36:49.614)
Hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (36:58.274)
Yeah, mean, wow. I'm going to hold my thoughts on that for the close.

Jim Salmon (37:05.403)
Yeah. No, and again, I don't know. Like, just like you, I have not done the deep dive study into this. I've done, we've touched on it a little bit in some classes I've been through, but yeah, I'm not prepared to make a statement.

GOBBA GOOL (37:18.862)
I'll just say this before we move on. if, and I'm not necessarily accusing John Mark Comber's guy of this, but if you want the Bible to say something and pour through commentaries until you find the one that says what you want it to say, you're probably starting off on a bad spot. And I, I have an inkling of a suspicion that that's what happened.

Jim Salmon (37:20.933)
Sure.

Jim Salmon (37:26.311)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (37:40.005)
Yeah, that's I think the biggest threat, yeah.

That's the biggest concern. mean, and I have the same problem for the, you know, hyper nationalist church that's just like, yeah, killing all the pagans and Gentiles. Like, you know, it's like if the, if the difficult truth is made easy because of your bias, then, you know, you're probably not looking as hard as you should.

GOBBA GOOL (37:55.199)
Right. Right.

GOBBA GOOL (38:03.188)
I know. I just I told my Sunday school class today. was like, Christian Annie is just sitting in the middle with opinions nobody likes. Like, like, it's just, it's just like, I don't know, is modern Israel like the nation state? Like, is that God's people? Probably not. But also, you know, anyway. Yeah, also, also, they probably shouldn't just be like slaughtered. So, you know,

Jim Salmon (38:10.247)
dude it really is it really is

Jim Salmon (38:20.743)
But they're still important, I don't know. Yeah, that god does this

Jim Salmon (38:29.371)
Yeah, yeah, it's like, I don't know. There's this this is some nuance to put in this Yeah Truth isn't it's not sexy. It's not sexy. It's

GOBBA GOOL (38:34.542)
Exactly. Just the truth is nobody likes the truth and it's the Christian's job to just sit there and no, it's our job to share it and be, you know, not liked by anybody. OK, so Augustine is going to continue on. So we're back to the objective opinions of Gustin, not that Augustine was objective, but that these are objectively his opinions. So he continues on when war is undertaken in obedience to God.

Jim Salmon (38:47.984)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (38:59.387)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (39:03.832)
who would rebuke or humble or crush the pride of man, it must be allowed to be a righteous war. For even the wars which arise from human passion cannot harm the eternal well-being of God, nor even hurt his saints. For in the trial of their patience and the chastening of their spirit and in bearing fatherly correction, they are rather benefited than injured." So he's saying, if a war is done in obedience to God,

It is a righteous war. Which, that sentence right there has about a million asterisks, you know? But it's essentially, essentially, it's like Augustine clearly believes that war can be just. Yeah, that's right.

Jim Salmon (39:35.153)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (39:53.672)
If it's a good war, it's a good war. It's very helpful.

GOBBA GOOL (39:58.944)
And then, but then this is so fascinating. The second half of that, when he talks about even like human wars, one, they can't hurt God. Like his eternal well-being was the phrase he used. And they can't ultimately hurt the eternal well-being of his saints. And so even unjust wars, this is where where Augustine's view of God's sovereignty is kind of shown. Even unjust wars.

Jim Salmon (40:17.735)
Mm.

GOBBA GOOL (40:27.906)
God is still like on top of, right? Like he's not ultimately hurt by them, his eternal well-being and neither is the church. And he says, and that even the church can be benefited from unjust wars. And I don't think you should take that as a, Augustine just has a stamp of approval on every, like, you know.

Jim Salmon (40:44.679)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (40:51.911)
He's like when you look when you look back on it, like it was actually kind of a good time

GOBBA GOOL (40:54.894)
I mean, if you really think about it, right? OK. So here's our last chunk from Augustine. Thank you guys for letting me read so much Augustine. And then we'll talk about it. So for there is no power but of God. And here's the big one. Romans 13, 1, who either orders or permits. Since therefore a righteous man serving it may be under an ungodly king may do the duty.

Belonging to his position in the state and fighting by the order of his sovereign for in some cases it is plainly the will of God that he should fight and in others Where this is not so plain it may be an unrighteous command on the part of the king while the soldier is innocent because his position makes obedience a duty How much more must the man be blameless who carries on war on the authority of God of whom everyone? Serves him knows that he can never require

what is wrong. Okay, I know that was a mouthful, but essentially, there's no power but of God. So the state is put in charge by God. And so he acknowledges that

Jim Salmon (42:00.754)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (42:17.718)
You can be a soldier being put under an unrighteous command because his position makes his obedience a duty. then as kind of like a final stab at the Manichaeans, this idea that how much more must the man be blameless who carries on war on the authority of God? So he's saying.

Jim Salmon (42:28.156)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (42:42.72)
If you're fighting a just war, can't say that he's basically Augustine is basically saying you cannot blame soldiers in war. You can't call them murderers or evil because they're either in a just war doing something that is required of God or two. They're only acting on orders.

Jim Salmon (43:05.703)
No, no, no, no, I'm just, I'm, I'm just, reacting. And I, and I also want to say in favor of my good friend Gus Gus, I love with all my heart. We have access to so much history, even modern history, like in the past hundred years that I think

GOBBA GOOL (43:06.476)
That's what Augustine says.

GOBBA GOOL (43:12.365)
I'm

Jim Salmon (43:30.727)
adds a level of baggage to this. mean, I'm sure that the Roman Empire during this time was still fighting wars. mean, if his time overlapped with what, like, fifth century Rome, yeah, it's not like he didn't know that there were still gruesome things happening. But it's hard, when you're like, oh, well, you can't hold soldiers responsible as long as they're just following orders. It's like, dude, that's the Nuremberg trials. Like, that's what the Nazi officers literally said.

GOBBA GOOL (43:56.31)
Well, and I think that that's where he gets a little bit of a pass because yes.

Jim Salmon (44:01.092)
Right, because I don't think that he has the baggage that we do, and of course I don't think his mind could fathom the types of atrocities that would be done under the name of war in recent memory for us as humans.

GOBBA GOOL (44:15.946)
Right. I think Augustin as well would have, I mean, he would have been aware of what humans are capable of great evil. But I think also he's not really setting out to talk about, like, just war practice. He's only talking about, it warranted? So can it be? Yes.

Jim Salmon (44:33.157)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jim Salmon (44:38.317)
Mm-hmm or even can it be warranted like is it is there a single scenario in which it's possible?

GOBBA GOOL (44:44.96)
Right, so that's more what he's talking about. Maybe he was sloppy throwing in that point. think that little sentence. Right, like if he was presenting this as a PhD defense, that single sentence might cost him something, because it's quote unquote sloppy. But we just have to remember, read him in context into he.

Jim Salmon (45:01.447)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (45:04.921)
Sure, sure, sure.

Jim Salmon (45:11.505)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (45:12.318)
He wasn't, that's not the point of what he's talking about. I like how you said it. Is there a single instance in which war is acceptable? And if then, if then, then if the answer is yes, then that means that God was not like altogether this evil, wicked, warmonger that the Manicheans believe he was in the Old Testament. So yeah.

Jim Salmon (45:15.365)
Yeah, and it's not like...

Jim Salmon (45:20.775)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (45:33.559)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, cuz ultimately that that is what Augustine is trying to do. He's not trying to build a cohesive theory on warfare. He's trying to basically write a long rebuttal against Manichaeanism and the Gnosticism that they were, you know talking about all the Yeah. Yeah. Yeah

GOBBA GOOL (45:51.286)
Right. So I've got, as I said earlier, there's like a billion books and articles written on this. And some of them are very detailed analysis of what we just looked at. But I'm going to go ahead and give you my two simple little Baptist bullet points of what Augustine is saying. This is the simplest I could sum it up.

Jim Salmon (46:06.279)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (46:19.964)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (46:20.578)
There must be a just reason for war. And so some call this just cause. And then some delineate between just cause and right intention. But I'm just keeping it simple. This is just Taylor's take. As I said, there's people way smarter than me that have written books and have their own breakdowns of all of that and all the different bullet points. So there's just reason. And then there must be just authority. So in the case of the Israelites, God was the authority. And in our case,

Jim Salmon (46:27.399)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (46:49.932)
The government. And in his mind, he's like, there you go. If you have a just reason and just authority, you're OK. And I was playing with that. was like, does that does that two little bullet point summary work? I think it does. It answers the question of why Peter was wrong. Peter had a just reason, but didn't have the just authority. And then and then the just authority.

Jim Salmon (47:04.007)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (47:12.613)
Yes.

GOBBA GOOL (47:15.96)
could abuse their power and do things for the wrong reasons, but they don't have the just reason. So like I said, I think I've got it simple. Maybe Taylor is now a just war ethicist.

Jim Salmon (47:20.881)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (47:29.287)
I was doing a little poking around and I just need to point this out because I thought this was fantastic. So yes, the Roman Catholic Church who of course they kind of own the just war theory because of course they own Augustine and the church fathers.

GOBBA GOOL (47:49.922)
Well, and I didn't even, we didn't even say his name, but Aquinas went on to really add to it, you know, a thousand years later or whatever.

Jim Salmon (47:53.287)
Mmm.

For sure, yeah.

So yeah, so this is kind of reiterating what Taylor had said. This is the Catechism of the Catholic Church, conditions for just war paragraph 2309. Four tenants, damage inflicted by the aggressor must be lasting, grave and certain. All other means of putting an end must have been shown impractical or ineffective. There must be serious prospects of success.

And the use of arms must not produce evils or disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. So you can't nuke somebody who's just, you know, shooting across the board or something like that. Last month, the US bishops, what is it, the bishops chairman for the US Conference of Catholic Bishops had to issue a clarification statement because for Palm Sunday of this year, Pope Leo XIV

GOBBA GOOL (48:29.998)
Mm.

Jim Salmon (48:52.023)
Made a statement where he said that God does not listen to the prayers of those who wage war but he rejects them and so And I mean like it of course that's that's one line taken a little bit out of context. He's mostly reiterating that like Christ is our King of Peace and one who is basically a warmonger You know recklessly like the bishops were basically like he's not

GOBBA GOOL (49:00.256)
gosh.

Jim Salmon (49:21.005)
undermining what the Catholic Church has already believed. We still believe that, but you know, so I think there are people who are like, the Pope doesn't believe in just war anymore. This is crazy. So yeah, thought that was really interesting.

GOBBA GOOL (49:35.566)
That's funny. I didn't catch that. I didn't know that. I don't follow papal news. Yeah, I mean, I think this gets, when you talk about war and like, it warranted? Is it merited? I think it just gets really complicated, especially in our day and age, where we have more access to information than ever before. like,

Jim Salmon (49:40.455)
Papacy updates.

Jim Salmon (49:55.046)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (50:00.706)
that doesn't mean anything because it's all I don't want to say it's all lies but like like we actually don't know if Iran was a legitimate threat to Israel we have no idea. Mossad and their little agents could have figured out they're about to

Jim Salmon (50:05.2)
It's twisted.

Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (50:18.71)
us off the face of the earth we have to do something here's the intelligence mr. president please help and Trump could have been a man of God in that moment defending innocent lives and was like BAMMUM send him back to the stone age and you know and like we have no idea or it could have just been like hey I think we could you know cause some damage to somebody who we probably don't want around run around but

Jim Salmon (50:30.823)
Right.

Jim Salmon (50:43.195)
Yeah, let's make some news that doesn't have to do with these files that everyone's talking about, about this island and billionaires and stuff. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (50:47.968)
Right. Right. And we have we have no idea.

Jim Salmon (50:53.967)
And it sucks because of the overabundance of information with drastically different biases. To me, either perspective that you just brought up could be equally valid. Where I'm like, was Iran, you know, about to send the whole world to the stone age? Maybe. Or was Donald Trump just exercising his power beyond what a responsible president should do? Also, maybe. yeah. And it's...

GOBBA GOOL (51:07.437)
Right.

GOBBA GOOL (51:20.16)
Also, maybe. And I'm not a betting man, and that situation would not make me a betting man. Like, I don't know which one it is.

Jim Salmon (51:26.509)
Right, yeah, yeah. That's black and red on the roulette, man. Half and half. I'm... Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (51:31.47)
Yeah. And I think, you know, there was a lot of discussion post Vietnam and even during Vietnam on just war theory that popped up. In fact, I don't have the book anymore. One of the guys that wrote like one of the definitive books, he wrote it in 74.

And he was inspired by Vietnam. And then before he died, he did the fourth edition, the last print. He did a new preface to the fourth edition talking in late to early 2000s, talking about the war in Iraq. So I think this is a discussion that's always going to be continuing. I think if I had to guess where it's going to evolve, this whole discussion on just war is it's actually going to evolve in the practice side. What's the?

Jim Salmon (51:55.868)
Mm-hmm.

Interesting.

Jim Salmon (52:08.016)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (52:25.004)
What's the Latin one for that? There's like juice add bello and then juice add something.

Jim Salmon (52:31.841)
Ooh, you're overestimating my Latin, brother. I don't know.

GOBBA GOOL (52:34.55)
I don't know. I don't know. But but the one that we already talked about at the site that Augustine's not really dealing with, but not not the why and should, but rather the how. mean, dude, like. Massad blew up like all the pagers in the pockets of the my gosh, what's the Palestinian terrorists? Hamas.

Jim Salmon (52:40.903)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (52:44.391)
How? Yeah.

Jim Salmon (53:00.667)
Gaza? The Hamas? Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (53:03.938)
That's crazy. Ukraine sent in through like a train or something disguised as a bunch of like cargo, like a bunch of bomber drones and just like wrecked a bunch of Russian military infrastructure. So we're like by the end of our lives are going to see maybe robots fighting robots. And I don't, I don't quite know.

Jim Salmon (53:20.188)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (53:29.51)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (53:32.428)
what to think about that. don't know. But if I had to guess, that's where the discussion is going to evolve in this field.

Jim Salmon (53:39.228)
I think it's fascinating. I'm really curious or I'm interested in learning more about this guy who wrote Just War as influenced by Vietnam. Because I think that as, mean, nothing new under the sun, right? Like all the things that we think are so new and complex are really just age old truths. But I mean, like Vietnam was a very

different war and I think what's interesting is like America had a pretty strong sense of nationalism around the wars that it had fought up until Vietnam with Korea being a little on the shakier side and then all of a sudden you get Vietnam you get You know newscasters showing videos of you know kids and and dead bodies and all this gruesome stuff and suddenly we realize gosh These guys aren't heroes. They're savages

GOBBA GOOL (54:27.532)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (54:32.047)
And then you talk to the people who were there and in their mind, when you look at all four of these metrics, they were like, well, I felt that my life was threatened with grave danger and I didn't mean, didn't intend on using means that were, like everything gets so messy. Like the problem is when you apply these four metrics, there's so much room for interpretation to me that anyone could just be like, well, that's sort of true. So technically God is on my side.

GOBBA GOOL (54:47.852)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (54:58.231)
Right.

Jim Salmon (55:01.753)
It's always the nuance for me that gets me. It's always the nuance that gets me. I mean, I think like, remember listening to Dan Carlin's really, really good series about Japan, kind of from their first opening the doors and fighting off the colonial efforts of Europe to their stretch through World War II. And he tells stories about like Christian pilots fighting for the Japanese.

Air Force like who had Bibles strapped to their dashboards who were committing kamikaze attacks because Japan has like a very long historical like Catholic Church involvement And these were dudes who were like, they're firebombing the crap out of Tokyo Like there are hundreds of thousands of civilians getting killed. I'm trying to protect my family The emperor is a whack job, but I'm trying to protect my family

GOBBA GOOL (55:54.754)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (55:58.638)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (55:58.736)
And so they think they're very justified. And then of course, we already know how well we can justify ourselves. it's just when we act so out of turn, it makes these lines so blurry and so complicated.

GOBBA GOOL (56:12.672)
Yeah. And we don't want to be people that just get caught and lost in nuance so much that we're like never willing to take a stand, you know? And I'm not saying that's what you are. The book, by the way, for anybody curious, it's Just and Unjust Wars by Michael Walser. It's on Archive. If you want to read it, you can read it for free on Archive.

Jim Salmon (56:22.215)
Sure, sure.

Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (56:36.549)
I love ArchiveToon.

GOBBA GOOL (56:39.726)
I've a post, this is a little bit off topic. I'm not gonna dox the guy, but he's a semi-popular guy out here in SoCal and he's great. He is a good guy, but he's pretty unapologetically Christian nationalist, so he kinda comes from that side. And he has, he posted something today just roasting David French. Because, and he basically said,

Jim Salmon (56:49.702)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (57:05.805)
okay.

GOBBA GOOL (57:09.282)
David French is a sissy Christian who would rather sit around and talk about nuance, and he's not going to be willing to act. And this is what the guy said. He said, I would trust the person who basically responds to drag queen story hour by dragging the drag queen out in the library and beating him up for being wrong. He's like, I would rather trust that guy than someone like David French.

And I'm just thinking like, that's a, that's a take. And we really do try, we try to give everybody the benefit of the doubt as much as possible. We really do. And I think what he meant to say, if I could be his like anger translator was I'm just trying, I'm just like trying, it's like, I think what he's saying is at a certain point,

Jim Salmon (57:40.123)
That's... Okay, yeah, that's something.

Jim Salmon (57:51.313)
Sure, yeah.

Jim Salmon (57:57.948)
You're like his advocate right now. You're like his representation.

GOBBA GOOL (58:07.358)
Stop talking about all the nuance and trying to understand what everyone else is feeling and like just do the right thing. And that's and that is so hard because then you say what's the right thing.

Jim Salmon (58:15.909)
Yeah

Jim Salmon (58:20.135)
But here's the thing if there's loony tunes like this guy who would rather see people getting like Assault and batteried that to me is an argument that maybe we probably need some nuance because for me it's like nuance is sobriety nuance is keeping my emotion from dragging me to one side of an issue without thinking through it with with what scripture calls us to be like sober minded and to be discerning so

GOBBA GOOL (58:25.422)
Just get beat. I know I know I know

GOBBA GOOL (58:32.46)
I know.

Jim Salmon (58:48.199)
When people get upset about the overuse of nuance, like, well, if you're so fearful of nuance, like, you know, what does that say about your response to the Christian life? Like we're called to live these like prayerful, contemplative, thoughtful, meditative lives. Like, and you just want us to react and you more than that, you want us to react in violence. That's literally what Peter did. That's literally what Moses did.

GOBBA GOOL (58:53.126)
I know.

GOBBA GOOL (59:15.63)
I know. Well, yes, that's right. And that it's almost like what that guy said was, would rather support the person who is in the just cause rather than the just authority. Yeah.

Jim Salmon (59:30.001)
Mm-hmm.

Right, right. I mean, it's like, it's like a... I mean, it's like why it's still important to have a defense attorney in like a court of law, even if you're defending someone reprehensible. Like, you need that advocate so that we can look at things truly fairly, because...

GOBBA GOOL (59:46.359)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (59:50.147)
If we don't have that, then yeah, then we get led to a one-sided skewed view of things. it leads to people who, it leads to what I mean, cause like when I brought up the firebombings from World War II, everyone thought that this was like the most God blessed war around. We were all doing the right thing. And it's crazy that like when people argue about the U S and Japan, we talk about the nuclear bombs, but I'm like, dude, we were.

burning those cities to the ground way before the nuclear bombs ever came out. So it's like when you have people who aren't willing to think and pray through nuance, then what you have is people who don't have anyone holding them back. There's no brakes anymore and you're just stepping on the gas and when you step on the gas you kill civilians and you kill people who aren't Christians and you you hurt people and you do unjust things.

GOBBA GOOL (01:00:23.458)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (01:00:40.023)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (01:00:45.142)
Right, like beat up a guy dressed in a dress for reading. Well, and I think, like as we land this plane safely, not into a Pacific carrier in Hawaii, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I think if in the situation in our daily lives, that drag queen story hour is a good example of.

Jim Salmon (01:00:48.137)
Some gas, some...

Jim Salmon (01:00:55.526)
That's right. That was good. That was good. Yeah, we're gonna land this plane nice and soft

GOBBA GOOL (01:01:13.388)
Like, well, one, you're not entitled to just go against the government and the Bible and act violently because you don't like what he's doing. And two, if you really want to, like, win people over, if you don't like this weird, this weird, I do think Drag Queen Story Hour is weird. Like, it's an odd practice and there is, and we can even say there's like some satanic undertones to it, sure.

Jim Salmon (01:01:31.898)
Yeah. Super weird.

Jim Salmon (01:01:38.928)
Dude, if you wanna do it at like an 18 plus nightclub at like 9pm on a Saturday, but just don't do it at my local library with my kids there, like that's a totally different thing.

GOBBA GOOL (01:01:44.908)
Yeah, can't. Right. Exactly. But if you want to the fact that it's happening proves that culture is OK with it. So you beating that person up is only going to make that person a martyr. Now, what you can do is try to have calm, nuanced. There's our bad word for the night. Nuanced discussions with the people attending. And maybe you can win more people over your side or you can do what my old church in Tucson did.

Jim Salmon (01:01:54.246)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (01:02:13.314)
which was open up a library. They literally opened up a library that serves as an alternative. And I don't know how it is. I haven't checked up on it in like a couple of years. Why just bring him up? Why ruin this whole thing? I don't care about Kid Rock. Let me tell about this. At Emmanuel Baptist Church, they had this children's library that was just packed out because it was safe, family-friendly stories. Right.

Jim Salmon (01:02:18.918)
Mm-hmm.

Like Kid Rock.

Jim Salmon (01:02:25.239)
You

I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

Jim Salmon (01:02:36.322)
I think that's cool. I love that. actually really like that. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (01:02:39.694)
And that's just such a better response than being like, I'm gonna take you outside and whoop your butt for being weird and gay, you know? You can't be weird and gay in front of me.

Jim Salmon (01:02:44.134)
Yeah

Jim Salmon (01:02:49.566)
That's good. That's right. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I feel strongly to contend about just war theory because like both my parents were in the military. I know your dad was in the military too for a long time. Mine was a long time. Like the military has really shaped my life and I would say in a predominantly positive way. And I don't think that my parents, you know,

GOBBA GOOL (01:03:04.974)
That's right.

Jim Salmon (01:03:15.856)
they've got blood on their hands. Like they served in radar stations in Alaska in like the 80s. If anything, they were looking to defend us from the cold war missiles if they were ever going to be sent. so I don't know. Like I, I think I, you know, when I think about the fact that probably shy of the resurrection, Jesus's last miracle might've been to reattach the ear of that guard.

GOBBA GOOL (01:03:24.974)
That's right. That's right.

Jim Salmon (01:03:42.982)
Like the last miracle was truly an act of love in the face of like vindicated but not appropriate violence I just think yeah, that's gotta be something right so Yeah

GOBBA GOOL (01:03:55.254)
Yeah, I agree with you. I agree with you. We'll just sit uncomfortably in the middle.

Jim Salmon (01:04:00.463)
As we should, as we should, and as you should, listener, unless you completely disagree, which is fine, just leave it in the comments and we'll talk about it more. Yeah. I'd love to do an episode. Honestly, dude, tell me what you think about this. Maybe this is a chump talk down the road. I'd love to do an episode that we call retractions, but it's really just like us going through the comments that we've gotten about episodes that we just want to respond to and just be like.

GOBBA GOOL (01:04:06.542)
was leaving a comments. That's right. Let us know.

GOBBA GOOL (01:04:24.654)
Hmm.

Jim Salmon (01:04:26.618)
this is such an interesting idea, I'd love to highlight it and then respond to it. It'd be a very scatterbrained episode, maybe that one's for down the

GOBBA GOOL (01:04:30.698)
OK. You guys got to leave us more comments if you want us to be interacting live with your comments. So, yes.

Jim Salmon (01:04:39.678)
Yeah, that would be good. Speaking of chump talk, if you guys are interested in picking a chump talk episode for us, the option is available. We have a bunch of new perks for our buy me a coffee. Check out the link in our show description and we will. Yeah, you can you can tell you can you can tell Taylor what to wear for an episode. I added that one last night. You can tell me what background I have to put up like the Eiffel Tower. no, I'm in France.

So yeah, look it up. There's a whole bunch of things you can do. It'll be great. No. It's like $75 pig tailors outfit. That'd be really funny though.

GOBBA GOOL (01:05:09.398)
You're just... Did you actually add that? You're such a...

You're such a scammer. my gosh. Yeah. And then I love how for you it's like I I change my zoom background. Such an inconvenience. no. Wow. yeah. Anyway, I have I've gone all episode without shouting out LM but LM this episode was your idea. So good job, bro. There you go.

Jim Salmon (01:05:24.358)
It's like, I've got a UFO behind me guys!

Jim Salmon (01:05:39.652)
Well done man, yeah and this was honestly a dope episode and a fun way to get back into Second Crusade. So it's coming.

GOBBA GOOL (01:05:48.344)
We didn't even talk about the implications of this on the Crusades. So that's right.

Jim Salmon (01:05:52.064)
it's coming though, it's coming. We're just planting, we're just tilling the soil brother. That's right, that's right. Alright gang, well thank you guys so much for listening, we love you all bunches and I'll be back next week with another episode.

GOBBA GOOL (01:05:55.736)
Planting seeds! Yes.

GOBBA GOOL (01:06:05.58)
Bye bye.

Jim Salmon (01:06:07.204)
See ya.

GOBBA GOOL (01:06:14.126)
You have to stop the recording, you fool.

Jim Salmon (01:06:16.246)
I am stopping it.

Okay.

Jim Salmon (01:06:25.638)
BWAH!

GOBBA GOOL (01:06:27.734)
Is it done?

GOBBA GOOL (01:06:54.508)
Okay. Nice.

Jim Salmon (01:06:57.649)
Oh, oh there you are. Okay. I had another, another window up. Uh, all right. I'm making sure that went through. That was good episode, man. That was really good.

GOBBA GOOL (01:07:06.541)
It's still recording.

Jim Salmon (01:07:08.974)
what?