129. CHUMP TALK: How Christians Can Live United in Dividing Times

Sometimes the doctrinal and cultural differences that exist within the Christian church can feel overwhelming. We want to live united within the Body of Christ, but we also want to honor truth and our own church tradition. 

How can we do it? Is it even possible?

Fear not, dear listener. Two podcasters are here to shine the light for you. 

Join Tay and John as we share about our experiences in different church settings, and how we believe the church can walk united through its differences. 

And thank you again to Isaac P. for executive producing and recommending this episode! You da best. 

Transcript

Jim Salmon (00:00.578)
Hey everybody, welcome to Chump what? Chump Talk. This is John Simon. And what is it, Taylor? That's right, Chump Talk. This is like our other episodes, slightly worse and with no preparation. This is what we just call Riffin Baby. That's very true. I mean, our other episodes, have to research, we have to write.

GOBBA GOOL (00:03.882)
Chomp Talk Chomp Talk Chomp Talk

GOBBA GOOL (00:16.63)
That's not true.

That's not true.

Jim Salmon (00:26.572)
I have whole page of notes for the episode we're going to record after this. have pages, pages and pages of notes. This one...

GOBBA GOOL (00:29.59)
Mm.

GOBBA GOOL (00:33.63)
I mean, I'll have you know, I skimmed a few articles and a book for this one.

Jim Salmon (00:38.504)
okay. All right. All right. Look at that. See, this is why we brought you on. This is why I brought you on here, Well, so yeah, chump talk is basically, it's, it's what we kind of just, it's when we talk, it's two chumps talking, talking about, you know, different topics that are, that are important to us. Also important to you guys. And in fact, what's exciting is this is actually the first episode that we had formally sponsored.

GOBBA GOOL (00:41.91)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (01:05.58)
by one of our supporters on Buy Me a Coffee, link in the show notes. So this episode is for our good friend Isaac. Isaac, thank you for your kind donation.

GOBBA GOOL (01:16.23)
Isaac, here's the deal. Here's the deal, brother. If you wanted us to say your last name, you needed to send a pronunciation guide.

Jim Salmon (01:25.198)
But here's the thing, I don't think he does want to say his last name. Cause I also think his last name is unique enough to where it's like, that's just unique enough to be him be the only one. And I don't want, I don't want to blast this guy on to our hundreds of thousands of listeners, man. Yeah, dude, he's going to be, he's going to have people knocking on his door for his autograph. I want that for Isaac.

GOBBA GOOL (01:34.334)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (01:41.501)
and millions.

GOBBA GOOL (01:47.574)
Dude, had a, I, one, thank you, Isaac. Thank you. And we're happy to do this episode. It's a great, it's a great idea. Now two, I had a dream where I didn't have hiccups. I had a dream much like MLK. I was just thinking, I was like, what, what could church history for chumps turn into? And I was just thinking like, brother,

Jim Salmon (01:54.424)
We are.

Jim Salmon (02:01.004)
You alright there big guy? Okay. Wow.

Jim Salmon (02:15.214)
Wait, is this like a daydream or was this actually a dream you had? Okay, cause I got really excited. I really like hearing stories about people's dreams, but this it's not. No, just keep going.

GOBBA GOOL (02:17.79)
It's a daydream.

GOBBA GOOL (02:21.965)
I mean, it could be a real dream. had a dream. I had a real dream that we had a Netflix deal and like they sent us around to church history sites. And we're like, but here's the thing. Here's the thing that I was thinking. I was like, this would be so fun if we ever did blow up. Like, imagine us producing like an actual documentary. Because the thing is, is it would be like we're in the Welsh countryside exploring, you know, insert rare, you know, unknown. And we would be like,

Jim Salmon (02:40.366)
huh.

Yeah.

Jim Salmon (02:50.254)
You couldn't even you couldn't even spontaneously think of a Welsh Church history thing

GOBBA GOOL (02:53.717)
I don't know of anybody else, but the point is, the point is we'd be like talking to local historians, and then we would be like interviewing sheep to see what they thought too. It'd be so great. It'd be so great. So if you guys ever want to see us get to that, keep sponsoring episodes.

Jim Salmon (03:04.814)
That would be a lot of fun. See.

Jim Salmon (03:10.54)
See, here's the thing we've had some, some, some interesting talks about Christian nationalism. Here's, here's the one thing I like about Christian nationalism, the world that we live in today. We're never going to get a Netflix show in a Christian nationalist world. We, we might be the hottest act in town. Cause when everything else, when everyone else, they get kicked off the air for using curse words and talking about, you know, debauchery.

GOBBA GOOL (03:38.869)
Right. But two wholesome goobers. But all that to say, thank you guys for your support. The show is growing and it is very humbling to be a part of.

Jim Salmon (03:40.674)
We'd be, we'd be at the top of the top of the, yeah.

Jim Salmon (03:54.127)
Christian Big Brother would love our show. I'm just saying. So if there's any Christian nationalists out there, I don't know what you could do. I don't know what I'm asking. All right. No, but, but yeah, so a few weeks ago we shared, and this is still true today, that we, in an effort to try to climb out of the pit of financial dependence, I have a lot of

GOBBA GOOL (04:04.425)
bit.

Jim Salmon (04:21.698)
bank loans that I had to take out for this show. We have a buy me a coffee. We like one time gifts. think subscription models are honestly a little icky for me. I think they're a little predatory. That's a whole different Chum Talk episode. So we want one time gifts. And so we decided to set up some perks for one time gifts. So we said, I think like five bucks to like 20 is you'll get a shout out and a high coup. The next level was

GOBBA GOOL (04:22.855)
Stop. He's lying.

Jim Salmon (04:49.728)
you got to sponsor the episode. we'd basically shout out your dog or your girlfriend or your church or your business. And the one above that is 50 bucks or more. We'll do a whole chump talk episode where you get to tell us what to do. Assuming it's not like weird. Yeah. It's like, let's do a whole episode where you just, I don't know. What would be something that we'd have to turn down?

GOBBA GOOL (05:05.171)
Yeah, within reason. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (05:13.969)
Like, like if someone was like, I just want you guys to talk about sushi.

Jim Salmon (05:19.798)
Yeah, I mean, because we still gotta make it for other people.

GOBBA GOOL (05:21.031)
You got so excited for a second. There was a split second where you're like, I think I could do that.

Jim Salmon (05:26.166)
I just, I don't know, just real quick, like what's your go-to role when you go to a new sushi restaurant?

GOBBA GOOL (05:34.525)
tuna spicy with the crunchy I eat it all but I'm I eat it all I but a spicy tuna

Jim Salmon (05:36.376)
That's good, yeah. Are you a sashimi or nigiri kinda guy?

Jim Salmon (05:44.952)
I like a good Alaska roll. A good Alaska roll, yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (05:47.914)
What's in the Alaska roll? Salmon. Salmon. Salmon. I, dude, me too. I cannot stand cream cheese rolls.

Jim Salmon (05:50.415)
I don't like anything with cream cheese, it feels weird. That's all Annie eats, she loves the cream cheese. It's so strange. I don't feel like it complements it at all. I've never had baked salmon and been like, I wish I had some cream cheese to slather on this bad boy.

GOBBA GOOL (06:03.267)
GOBBA GOOL (06:09.735)
Yeah, like, like, think about think about if you were eating salmon and rice and veggies, which is like a normal like American dinner, right? And then somebody just took a scoop of cream cheese and put it on the plate. Yeah, but wrap, wrap it up and have a nice old Japanese guy serve it to you. this is great.

Jim Salmon (06:15.214)
Mm.

Right, right.

Jim Salmon (06:23.79)
they were a menace. They're deranged.

Jim Salmon (06:34.705)
man, I'm just saying, there's a lot we could say about sushi. Anyways.

GOBBA GOOL (06:36.945)
I'll divide this is that's a tier one issue to divide over. Yes. Anyway.

Jim Salmon (06:40.878)
I think so. I think so. But Isaac did not ask us to talk about sushi. He asked us to talk about something much more prevalent, much more useful, I think. And I think much more relevant to where we're at as a church in the culture. And it's the question of unity. It's the question of how do you... And I think we can be like personal, like we can talk about our stories and how we've engaged with the church at large, but also...

what we would kind of hope to see. But yeah, just like, what does it look like to be united and stand in love with people who may hold very different views, but who are still under the umbrella of Christ? So.

GOBBA GOOL (07:25.331)
Well, yeah, and I think the issue kind of stems and starts getting complicated when not everybody has the same things that they're willing to defend, so to speak. Not everybody has the same sacred cows. There's like an old quote, and I actually don't think you can attribute it to anybody.

Jim Salmon (07:43.981)
Yes.

GOBBA GOOL (07:50.773)
But it's it's the old it's yeah, it's one of those like I don't can't find the original but it's old

Jim Salmon (07:51.726)
Mmm.

Jim Salmon (07:55.693)
Is this preach the gospel and if necessary use words?

GOBBA GOOL (07:58.952)
No, they attribute that to Francis of Assisi. I know it's not, because he believed in preaching the gospel. I know. Yes, we sang his song at church this morning.

Jim Salmon (08:02.466)
But it's not his.

Jim Salmon (08:06.51)
Mm-hmm. He also like talking to birds.

Jim Salmon (08:12.696)
This is my father's world.

GOBBA GOOL (08:14.119)
All creatures of our God and King. Yeah. Hey, daddy wrote the first verse that we sing these days.

Jim Salmon (08:16.18)
that's way better, that's good. Did he read and write that, did he? Let's go. We also have another guy we're gonna be talking about soon who wrote some hymns, so that's for another episode. Actually that'll be for an episode the listeners already listened to, so I'm actually anti-spoiling. Anyways, carry on.

GOBBA GOOL (08:28.181)
you

GOBBA GOOL (08:36.083)
You're just knocking it out of the park right now. It no runs, chief. Thanks. Thanks for that. So anyway, the quote two minutes later is there's not a doctrine a fundamentalist won't die over, nor is there a doctrine that a liberal will defend.

Jim Salmon (08:38.478)
You

It's like that was a real useful 30 seconds of dialogue.

Jim Salmon (08:55.566)
Hmm.

Jim Salmon (08:59.934)
Mmm. Yeah. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (09:00.999)
So I think what that that quote sort of does is set us up on on our spectrum, right? Most things exist on a spectrum. And I think you have the idea that the fundamentalist is going to say everything that I can possibly think of is a tier one issue. Very important. I'm going to fight everybody over it. And then the liberals like, well, maybe Christ rules from the dead. It's all good.

Jim Salmon (09:07.885)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (09:27.482)
I think more and more about that GK Chesterton quote, which is, it is a liberal's job to make mistakes and a conservative's job to ensure we never learn from them. I just think that quotes, your face looks confused.

GOBBA GOOL (09:42.282)
Wait.

I am confused. It's a conservative job to ensure we never learn from the mistakes? I get it.

Jim Salmon (09:49.624)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (09:54.644)
I don't like that.

Jim Salmon (09:55.791)
Hey dude, you just got to remember every conservatives dad or sorry. No, no, Hold on. How do I say this? Every liberals dad, every conservative would have been liberal a generation earlier. Like we're just.

GOBBA GOOL (10:13.075)
Well, that's kind of the sick thing, right? Is that our hyper conservative tradwives of the day would be like, even a hundred years ago, be considered like extremists. Like leftist extremists. So I don't know. Who knows though? Culture right now is shifting.

Jim Salmon (10:28.994)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (10:39.189)
I think we've talked about before how the pendulum is swinging back after what, 50 years of like sort of secularization. seeing a swing back, know, young men are more interested in religion. Or the alternative lifestyle nowadays is not, you know, smoking cigarettes and listening to punk rock.

Jim Salmon (10:44.28)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (11:03.733)
The alternative lifestyle is like, have a sourdough business and wear dresses and head coverings. I know. I know. So all that to say, think within our churches, we're also going to be seeing a rise of maybe more what we would call secondary issues.

Jim Salmon (11:10.966)
Yeah, Gen Z doesn't even drink anymore. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (11:29.237)
kind of becoming brought to the forefront as maybe they're more prominent. And so I think this is a great time to be having this discussion. And so we should probably start. Let's define what we're talking about. So if you want a great place to sort of enter the discussion, and honestly, this book finishes the discussion as well. So you can just kind of, if you only read this book, I think you'll be OK. It's Gavin. That's right. Yeah.

Jim Salmon (11:34.158)
Hmm.

Jim Salmon (11:38.552)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jim Salmon (11:56.431)
just cut the episode off right now, honestly, yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (11:59.201)
Just go read the book and we're done. It's Gavin Ortland's finding the right hills to die on.

So he's the, he's the, yep, I'm sure he is.

Jim Salmon (12:06.414)
Gavin, if you're Gavin, I have a message just for you. Please be on our show. Also like our show. I think that would mean more to me. Just, we miss you.

GOBBA GOOL (12:17.79)
Yeah. He, who's we? No, don't answer that question. Gavin's the Baptist, Ortland. So grateful for him. Grateful for him.

Jim Salmon (12:28.172)
Yeah, I don't even mind. don't even mind because he's reformed Baptist, right? I mean, as reformed as Baptist is gonna be, right? But yeah, he's reformed Baptist. But I like Gavin a lot. He has such a gentle spirit and he's but he's also not flimsy. Like he's not someone who's afraid of taking stances. He just takes them in ways that feel informed and gracious. Yeah, I love Gavin, dude. He's my he's my guy.

GOBBA GOOL (12:32.928)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (12:37.418)
Gosh.

GOBBA GOOL (12:47.625)
Yeah!

GOBBA GOOL (12:54.612)
Yeah, I kind of like his camp, so to speak. It's the Gospel Coalition camp, right? And so his book kind of walks through. He assumes the primary, secondary, tertiary. He assumes that as kind of like your placeholders, your cups, whatever you want to categorize it in your mind.

Jim Salmon (13:00.971)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jim Salmon (13:12.226)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (13:19.476)
So there's primary doctrines which are essential to the gospel message. There's secondary doctrines that are essential to church unity. And then there's tertiary doctrines that are not essential. And then he actually introduces a fourth, which is like, this actually isn't even a thing.

Jim Salmon (13:28.952)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (13:37.474)
okay. What do you think would be like a perfect one for like the first circle? Like Apostles Creed stuff?

GOBBA GOOL (13:42.327)
Like, like, did Christ rise from the dead? Right. Yeah. So think what did they fight over in the early church? And I think all the things they landed on would be primary. like, Cal, Calcedon, Constantinople, all of that. So.

Jim Salmon (13:47.254)
Yeah, like do we consider the Bible trustworthy? Is the Trinity true?

Jim Salmon (13:58.895)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (14:05.261)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yep. Okay. Okay. So then I think, I'm thinking from a cultural level, but maybe like secondary, would that be like a women preaching?

GOBBA GOOL (14:12.104)
Yes, I see. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (14:24.308)
Well, you're jumping ahead of where I wanted to go. I'm going to say, yeah, put, yeah, say sorry. I'm going to say, I'm going to say yes, but let me say some other things before we jump into that. So yes, but think through one of the ways I like to think about it is what were the reformers fighting about? So like,

Jim Salmon (14:33.166)
I'm so sorry.

Jim Salmon (14:38.605)
Okay.

Jim Salmon (14:49.708)
Okay, yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (14:51.124)
Very quickly, the reformers were all on the same page about, think Rome's wrong about these primary things.

Jim Salmon (14:57.336)
What they fighting each other about or what were they fighting the Catholics about? Okay. Gotcha.

GOBBA GOOL (14:59.124)
Yes, yes, no, they're in house fights. So I think they split from Rome over primary things and then quickly started fighting over secondary things. So if you think through, basically think like, what is baptism? What is the Lord's Supper? Kind of like, if you have a different understanding, if you were convictionally a Pato Baptist,

Jim Salmon (15:06.67)
Okay.

Jim Salmon (15:11.278)
Hmm.

Jim Salmon (15:20.011)
Hmm

GOBBA GOOL (15:27.484)
you like in good conscience cannot be in fellowship with someone who is not. Most of the time. Some people can. They can make that work. Now sometimes necessity forces you to only bond over primary issues. We're seeing this now as secularization has increased drastically over the last 50 years. You're seeing more

Jim Salmon (15:27.662)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (15:35.907)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (15:52.44)
People are choosing different hills to die on.

GOBBA GOOL (15:54.871)
Yes, so like we've seen some healing quote unquote between Rome and the rest of the Christendom with things like the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification documents like that. There's been some, you know, olive branches extended because at the end of the day, we have to if we all believe in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, he atoned our sins, all that.

Jim Salmon (15:56.834)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (16:05.678)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (16:20.066)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (16:23.146)
then like yeah, we're gonna be in heaven together. So let's figure out a way to come together.

Jim Salmon (16:29.816)
Sure, sure, Okay.

GOBBA GOOL (16:30.814)
Now, the reason that I said you were jumping ahead is because I think that in the past, women preaching wasn't necessarily seen as a secondary issue.

Jim Salmon (16:46.254)
Okay.

GOBBA GOOL (16:46.806)
For some people it was, but the thing is, is it was never really, it was never really an issue. You saw in the South scattered, or in the South in the American frontier, you saw scattered examples of it, but I think it was so rare that someone was like, that's that weird church with the women preacher. And like, that...

Jim Salmon (17:10.958)
I feel like there were like, there were like pockets that were introducing it after the second grade awakening.

GOBBA GOOL (17:20.042)
That's when it really started picking up. Yes.

Jim Salmon (17:22.572)
Yeah, I feel like the Methodists, like even under like, like I think John Wesley himself was in favor of women preaching, even if not, maybe not holding office, but right.

GOBBA GOOL (17:33.43)
But that's what I'm saying is it wasn't seen as, you weren't dealing with it in the same cultural context that we're dealing with.

Jim Salmon (17:42.553)
yeah, yeah, sure.

GOBBA GOOL (17:43.807)
And so our kind of post feminism culture, because what wave of feminism are we on now? Fifth? I know I can't either. And so that's now for the Southern Baptist Convention been labeled by Albert Moeller very clearly a secondary issue that he believes is very clearly worth dividing over.

Jim Salmon (17:52.686)
I don't keep count.

Jim Salmon (18:07.342)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (18:12.427)
Right.

GOBBA GOOL (18:12.478)
And so he has been calling for the last few years for Southern Baptist to finally make a decisive, clear stance. So that, yeah.

Jim Salmon (18:22.562)
mean, the Southern Baptists have been pretty consistent about that though, haven't they? Like... What's the fuss?

GOBBA GOOL (18:27.762)
No.

GOBBA GOOL (18:32.564)
The fuss is that... Okay, we can't hijack the whole episode about this, but as I will exp...

Jim Salmon (18:39.414)
No, that's fair. That's fair. Let's talk to me in terms of unity. Don't give me a full history lesson. Just like where are they at today? And is this sustainable? Because I can talk about the CRC and their deal with women in ministry, and I have my own opinions about whether that was sustainable or

GOBBA GOOL (18:56.506)
So Southern Baptists have to do not have the same tension that the CRC has in that you have head pastor Cheryl, who is like supposedly the pastor of a church within the CRC, right? That's not really been an issue within the Southern Baptist Church.

Jim Salmon (19:04.994)
Yes.

Jim Salmon (19:15.502)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (19:19.17)
That's kind where I'm coming from. like, what are you guys worried about? So is the problem that congregations are more in favor of this?

GOBBA GOOL (19:22.774)
Well, there was...

GOBBA GOOL (19:28.416)
Well, the problem is that you don't have Head Pastor Cheryl, but you have Children's Pastor Cheryl. And then maybe Children's Pastor Cheryl will preach every now and then. And that does happen within the Southern Baptist Convention. And that's what...

Jim Salmon (19:34.744)
Okay.

Jim Salmon (19:41.09)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (19:44.718)
Well, because there are Baptist seminaries that teach that women can preach but not hold a pastor role, right? Maybe not big ones, but there are some, right?

GOBBA GOOL (19:52.779)
No. Yeah, well, I mean, there's liberal Baptists just but the Southern Baptist Convention, none of their seminaries teach that. Not not one. And some of them actually don't even let women take the preaching class. They put them in public speaking. Which I kind of find a little funny. To be like.

Jim Salmon (19:57.666)
Sure.

Jim Salmon (20:03.725)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (20:11.384)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (20:16.418)
Hmm. Public speaking to do what?

GOBBA GOOL (20:20.534)
Exactly. Yeah. So, you know, that but anyway, so Albert Moeller, who is like, you know, he's credited with coming up with the term theological triage. And he's kind of credited with coming up with this primary, secondary, tertiary sort of sorting. He is calling for the Southern Baptist Convention to take a firm final stance. And I feel for him.

Jim Salmon (20:33.304)
Right.

GOBBA GOOL (20:48.746)
But I feel like our problems stem even deeper than just is a woman preaching on Sunday. It stems from the word pastor not having a clear meaning. Because at these mega churches that have, you know, this is our, yeah, and this is our online pastor and this is our.

Jim Salmon (20:59.713)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (21:04.91)
18 pastors. This is our pastor of sound design. This is our pastor of graphic design.

GOBBA GOOL (21:11.146)
Yes, this is the pastor to pastors. This is the pastor of the custodial staff. This is a, exactly. So you kind of like lost that. And then there's been this unfortunate distinction between the title pastor and elder. And so I call them soft, complementarian churches. And this is actually where I think a lot of.

Jim Salmon (21:17.57)
Mm-hmm.

This is the parking lot pastor.

Jim Salmon (21:30.146)
Yes.

GOBBA GOOL (21:38.794)
kind of non-denom's land where they have a children's pastor, but they're actually using the word more in terms of minister. This is our children's minister, which nobody really has an issue with the word minister.

Jim Salmon (21:41.294)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (21:50.125)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (21:55.545)
That's the thing about low church. I hate how like derogatory low church sounds, but the problem with low church is that terms kind of lose their meaning because I don't know, you kind of want to keep things more cash, keep more casual. But yeah, now you have a pastor for 15 different things. And yeah, I don't understand how a pastor, elder overseer, like how there's not that kind of connection that we I think see pretty clearly in like.

you know, the Timothy, like the elder epistles and stuff. yeah, share my side.

GOBBA GOOL (22:29.672)
I know. Well, if only everyone read the Bible the way we read the Bible.

Jim Salmon (22:36.352)
Excellent point. I'll say so the CRC and again, we're just kind of sharing like anecdotal stuff. And then I do want to get into, because I think this would be interesting. Unity from a ministry context versus unity from like a personal context too, I think could be, could be nice. Cause like as a chaplain, like what I consider important for

Allowing myself to serve diverse people would be very different than if I was you know a pastor Serving like shepherding a church like I'm very responsible for forming and for maintaining this community Whereas as a chaplain, it's pretty much whoever Whoever is there? I don't really get to gatekeep Exactly. Exactly, but the CRC they're really interesting. So if you are just

GOBBA GOOL (23:24.422)
Literally whoever's in front of you. Yeah.

Jim Salmon (23:32.665)
curious about kind of the history of different denominations. The CRC and just the Dutch Reformed Church in America or in North America is really fascinating. I served within it for a few years. The history essentially goes that most of these were Dutch immigrants coming to either Canada or the States after, like right before or right after World War II, kind of fleeing all the hubbub going on out there.

And so, yeah, very culturally Dutch, that's been a big talking point, but they kind of came to a head. I want to say this was back in the eighties, but they were basically arguing about whether or not women could be in ministry or whether they could serve as pastors. And they did something that I want to say, I can't think of many denominations that have gone this route. They essentially said there are biblical arguments for both.

There's a biblical argument to be made that women can serve as pastor and as elder. And there are arguments that it should be exclusive to men. So we will allow churches to hold both views and choose to like still like coexist with one another in love so that we don't sever the unity that we've had. Cause the thing about

GOBBA GOOL (24:53.206)
Thanks.

Jim Salmon (24:54.316)
And this is, think, interesting about churches that have kind of an ethnic heritage as like their back, their foundation. They're a lot slower to want to sever. They're a lot slower to want to rift and schism from each other, which I think is admirable. I think if you know anything about what's been happening in the CRC or even what led to the rift between the CRC and RCA back in the day, I don't know if the experiment has worked.

GOBBA GOOL (25:20.906)
Well, what they essentially did was take something that is probably a secondary to your issue and dropped it down to third.

Jim Salmon (25:26.755)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (25:30.316)
Yeah, yeah, but I think the thing was the drift that and again, like if you're if you're like some some real big educated CRC RCA guy listening to this and you're like, John doesn't know what he's talking about. Leave us a comment. I like learning. But my my gauge is like the CRC. What the what what prompted them to be open to women in the in the pastorate was kind of this drifting and

GOBBA GOOL (25:46.198)
You

Jim Salmon (25:59.565)
being more accommodating of views that weren't very traditionally reformed from like the Calvinistic view they came from. And the pro I think the problem was they hoped that it would stop there. But then the problem was over the last couple of decades, really you could say over just the last decade, it didn't stop there. It started to include.

issues of sexual identity, issues of gender, issues of, you know, can a homosexual person serve in this role? Can they be a church member? Can they be an elder? Can they be a deacon? All that stuff. And so now it's like, well, we did agree on a tertiary issue. Now we agree on a primary issue and that's becoming a much bigger issue. So sometimes trying to take the high road and maintaining unity

over an issue that has threats of causing more damage doesn't always work.

GOBBA GOOL (26:55.658)
Well, I think that's why, you know, Albert Moeller, we've already said his name a bunch and I realized I should probably clarify who he is. So. Yeah, thank you, sir. Wow. Thank you. He is the president of Southern Baptist, the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, and he was also kind of the head honcho that led very strongly in the conservative resurgence of the Southern Baptist Convention.

Jim Salmon (27:03.616)
Al, thanks for listening, by the way.

Jim Salmon (27:14.636)
Hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (27:24.072)
And so as he is kind of, the sun sets on his impressive career, I think he's really wanting to avoid, he's wanting to use every ounce of influence he has at the moment to get the Southern Baptist Convention to just take a stance now so that we, 40 years down the road, are not dealing with what the CRC is dealing with today.

Jim Salmon (27:51.469)
Yeah, yeah. And, and very different institutions, but yeah, mean, gosh, the, the amount of denominations that have just gone through this kind of stuff. And really, like I said, I think I said this last week, but I'm reading this book called the evangelicals and I don't remember who it's by or what the subtitle is, but if you send me a cover, I'll tell you if it's right or not. but it goes through the modernist

GOBBA GOOL (27:55.734)
Thank

GOBBA GOOL (28:15.478)
You

Jim Salmon (28:19.022)
fundamentalist rift and it's so interesting how so many factors on a social level, a biological level, like literally things like the Darwin theory of evolution, but also World War One ravaging Europe, like all these geopolitical things happen. They had so many effects on how people saw the world and therefore how they saw religion and we're still seeing

effects from that today in denominations, whether you want to look at the Methodist Church, whether you want to look at the Presbyterians, like.

GOBBA GOOL (28:51.158)
Yeah. So typically eschatology gets labeled, you know, your theology of the end times that gets labeled as a tertiary issue. And it's funny, you mentioned the world wars. So like post millennialism essentially evaporated post World War Two. It ain't getting better. This. No.

Jim Salmon (29:03.309)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (29:12.768)
Right, which is the view that people thought.

And just to give you like the briefest crash course, Post Mill are those who believe that gradually the influence and growth of the church and the evangelism efforts will continue until really all tribes and nations do confess Christ. And then like Taylor said, yeah, after World War I, the whole world was like, I don't think that's going to happen. I think we're all going to kill each other. I think the pre, but you know what did happen? Premillennials blew up.

GOBBA GOOL (29:40.566)
Yeah. Shoop!

Jim Salmon (29:47.126)
Cause they were like, wait a second, awful things are going to happen. Wars and rumors of wars. might be onto something, my boy. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (29:52.213)
Right. So I think having that self-awareness as we navigate where we want to our doctrines is a big deal. I think it's funny because we claim, you and I, John, claim to be ecumenical. And I think we could make an argument compared to like, like all we have to do is point to.

Jim Salmon (30:01.143)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (30:18.856)
large swaths of people that are more conservative than us and say like, look, we were more ecumenical than them. But, you know, at the same time, like we could, we, think we do have some more liberal listeners that are listening to us going like, you guys are not ecumenical compared to me.

Jim Salmon (30:23.47)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (30:38.018)
Well, I think it's like, the question is what does it mean to be ecumenical? Because there are people who I love, people who I respect, people who I have a number of theological differences with. And if I was a pastor, I'm not going to let this guy guest preach at my church. Cause I don't think that he has enough reverence for my tradition and for the truths that we uphold.

GOBBA GOOL (31:00.31)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (31:07.096)
But am I like, this guy's a heretic? No, of course not. And is he still my friend? Absolutely.

GOBBA GOOL (31:10.154)
Thank you.

There's a couple questions that we can ask ourselves to kind of determine and help help these, you know, help help us sort and rightly divide where we're landing on these doctrines. So it's like number one, as you said, would I want this guy to not just be a guest preacher, would I want this person to be a pastor at my church? So then there's number two, do I want this guy to be a guest preacher?

Jim Salmon (31:18.734)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (31:36.254)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Jim Salmon (31:42.638)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (31:43.434)
Number three, can this guy even be a church member with me? And then I think number four, and this is very Southern Baptist of me, would I want to go on a mission trip with this person?

Jim Salmon (31:56.954)
that's good. That's good.

GOBBA GOOL (31:58.847)
And I, the Southern Baptist in me, so you guys gotta remember, like the Southern Baptist Convention is built on number four. Can we go on mission together? Like, if the answer to that question is no, then you really can't be a member of the Southern Baptist Convention. But now here's, I'm welcome to be proven wrong for what I'm about to say, and this might bite me down the road.

Jim Salmon (32:06.094)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (32:27.85)
But I'm gonna go on record and say something. you don't have to, it's already recording.

Jim Salmon (32:30.286)
Hold on, I'll pull my phone out real quick. There we go. Now I want double.

GOBBA GOOL (32:36.006)
So when I think about going on mission, and this is giving as much generosity as possible, I am not particularly worried about going on a mission trip with Pastor Christine, who's the children's pastor. Because what I have spoken with enough people,

that I understand that they're just not using the same words that I am. A lot of these churches are still led by men, right? Like...

Jim Salmon (33:10.68)
So you're calling Pastor Christine, but she's just the youth leader. Okay, okay.

GOBBA GOOL (33:15.24)
Right, right. So a church that has decided to call their youth pastor, who happens to be a call or call Christine, their youth leader, Pastor Christine, I just am not entirely sold on that being worth dividing over because I think there's a massive difference between a church that says, hey, we only have male elders. Here's what we believe about that. And

Jim Salmon (33:40.163)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (33:43.028)
where they're kind of using the term, they're not using the term pastor in a way that I am comfortable with, but like, I think I could go on a mission trip with Pastor Christine.

Jim Salmon (33:54.467)
Yeah, that doesn't really phase me at all. That just sounds like, that's just words. She might as well be the executive, you know, the executive director of youth discipleship. Like who cares? These are all just words.

GOBBA GOOL (34:03.092)
Youth Director.

GOBBA GOOL (34:08.244)
Which, well, and that's where it's like, if Southern Baptists want to really lock down the definition of pastor, I'm OK with that. I just don't, I don't know, man. We're all in decline here, right? Protestantism's in decline. The church that's growing is like Orthodox and Catholicism. So good job, guys. I'm on the Pentecostals.

Jim Salmon (34:31.47)
And the Pentecosts bro. They're never gonna stop growing. They're never gonna stop.

GOBBA GOOL (34:37.514)
Maybe, maybe, yeah. But that's what I'm saying. I just don't know if it's worth kicking people out of your denomination, which is centered around funding missions, like over their poor, I'll call it poor ecclesiology. I think you and I can agree, and most of our listeners would probably agree, it's not best practice to call your children's director pastor. It's also not.

Jim Salmon (34:56.526)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (35:06.411)
I mean, that's it's inconsequential to me. That is that's that's like a 10th tier issue in my book just from from Presby land.

GOBBA GOOL (35:06.95)
It's...

GOBBA GOOL (35:12.426)
Right compared to compared to other issues. That's right. That's right. And that that's kind of my issue. I think in general with people that are like quick to divide because there's always something that's like if you don't agree with this you are heretic until until you have your own church right where you're the only member. Right.

Jim Salmon (35:16.086)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

Jim Salmon (35:31.788)
Well, and it's like, I don't know.

Exactly, exactly. Yeah. it's like, I think collaboration can exist as long as the terms are defined well, because like, you know, the church that I used to serve at, we, we, we were really close to doing some events with churches that were literally within like a quarter mile of us, but fit very different contexts. We were like, functionally non-denom technically Dutch reformed.

young millennial hip, you know, indie music church and across the street there was old timey Baptist church across the street from that black missionary Baptist church where the pastor is an apostle, which of course is not a term that I would like to use. Could we do something together? Could we, I don't know, hold some kind of event for the neighborhood where we all just

are part of our churches and we're washing cars or we're doing a free yard sale. Of course we can do that. Like that's not a problem. it, but yeah, I think if it was a missions trip or if it was something that required us to be on the same page, like I think sometimes we fall into the trap of saying if we can't do everything together, then we can't walk together. I think that's silly. I think that we should be constantly pursuing how far can I walk with you?

GOBBA GOOL (36:57.76)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (37:03.01)
before it's not valuable. And that doesn't mean that it's bad. That doesn't mean that it's like, can't, I can't hang out with this person. It's just like, if you're both Christians, if you're both bought with the blood of Jesus, if you both have the Holy Spirit in you, like you have infinitely more in common than you could ever have a separation, even if your theologies are often some remarks.

GOBBA GOOL (37:07.145)
and

GOBBA GOOL (37:25.27)
I have some friends that went to Swarthmore. Have you ever heard of that school? It's like super, you know, hoity-toity liberal arts college. And they found like the 12 other Christians on campus and like they had their Christian club and they had Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, know, somebody who's like so special. It's like, I don't even know where to put you.

Jim Salmon (37:31.203)
Nuh-uh.

Jim Salmon (37:44.846)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (37:53.663)
Like, and they all came together for Bible study because their environment had actually like forced them to come together.

Jim Salmon (37:53.783)
Yeah!

Jim Salmon (38:02.168)
Absolutely, dude, yeah, if you find yourself in downtown Baghdad one day and the only Christian in your city is... See, I don't care at all. Yeah, I'm like, you could be Orthodox, Armenian Orthodox, you could be a cop. Dude, you like Jesus, I like Jesus. Let's pray to him together. Like, yeah, that's where I think we should. And I totally get that like sometimes unity is irresponsible. Sometimes unity...

GOBBA GOOL (38:07.99)
Dude, I don't even. Yeah. I don't care if you're a pedo Baptist. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (38:19.912)
Yeah, exactly.

Jim Salmon (38:28.92)
gets in the way of what we're trying to do. And I get that, and I think we should have discernment, but I think we should try to stomach more than we think we can when it comes to walking with people.

GOBBA GOOL (38:39.54)
Well, especially this is... Here I go, maybe getting myself in trouble again. Look, if somebody's like bad take is born out of like just being ignorant and you are the lesser ignorant person, which is like a little arrogant to assume of yourself, but let's just go ahead and, you know, have I studied theology? Have I studied scriptures pretty deeply? Do I know what the word hermeneutics means? Like you're probably a little more informed.

Jim Salmon (38:51.534)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (39:09.13)
than the person who has no dog in the fight over Pastor Christine's title. Like, and just accept that, accept that they're not necessarily like they don't probably have any ill intentions. So like show a little grace and then come alongside. Just like the Black church that uses the title apostle. I've talked with those people before and they're all very, very sweet and they don't have a like ill bone.

Jim Salmon (39:23.118)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (39:39.135)
in their body. It's just the tradition. The tradition says, well, that's impossible. He goes around and helps oversee church planting. And, you know, like they're being they're trying to be genuine. And I know I'm being very generous in my interpretation, but we could be we should be just as generous with the person who grew up in a super fundamental environment and is having a hard time with any differing, any differing. I don't want that drum set on stage.

That's just making ruckus. We can't really worship. Well, okay, let's come alongside and, you know, hear him out, show some grace.

Jim Salmon (40:18.21)
Yeah. I mean, dude, I, I, I have a, I remember a time when I was a baby chaplain at the time. So I was a meeting with this dude. Cause I also used to do bereavement support. I was met, I met with a guy who had just lost his wife, like less than a week ago. And I met him one time and I was very nervous. I had not done a visit like that before. And I was like, do you ever want to talk to me again? He's like, yeah, sure. Let me talk once a month or so.

So once a month I would go out to his house and we would talk and I would basically just try to find questions that would, you know, keep him engaged. He'd talk about his wife. He'd talk about his grandkids. He was a very sweet guy and he would always just like sob whenever he talked about his wife. He was a very sweet dude. And I remember one of the first times we talked, he was like, he's like, are you going to make me like pray? Cause you're the chaplain. And I said,

I'm not going to make you do anything you don't want to do. I was like, if you want to pray, we can pray. I was like, honestly, I prayed for you before I got here. So you're already taken care of. And he's like, all right, thanks for not making me do that. I was okay. No worries. And he made it very clear. He, he had like beef with the Catholic church. I found like, this is like a whole generation dude of Catholics who got divorced and realized that they were no longer welcome to take communion at their church and just got burnt out and sad.

GOBBA GOOL (41:41.686)
Mmm.

Jim Salmon (41:41.967)
And he was one of those. was like, yeah, I was Catholic for a long time and then I got divorced and now I can't be Catholic anymore. But he would never talk to me about religion. I would never force on him. I was just there to listen. I was just there to love him, to care for him. And one day he says, you know, he's like, I'm looking for something to do. The house feels empty. I need to get out. I need to find something to do. He's like, I started going to a church. I said, really? He's like, yeah.

He's like, I've been going for a few weeks and the pastor is really nice. And I don't like going on Sunday morning, but they have a Saturday evening service. And I asked him what the church was. I think it was like some ELCA Lutheran church, not my favorite, but not my story. And, and I said, well, I'm glad he's like, and like week by week, he's like, you know, I think I'm going to join this church. I was like, really? I was like, do you feel like you've had like a, like a religious experience or do you feel like, like, like what's calling you to that?

He said, I don't know. And he starts crying just cause he always did. He's just such an emotional guy. It was very endearing. And he says, all I know is that when I walk into that church, I feel like God is with me. And when I'm alone and I'm thinking about my wife and I'm crying in this house by myself, I feel like God is with me too. And that makes me feel better. And I was just like,

I'm like, alright, you gotta go to the right church, man. Like, don't you know that in 2014, the ELCA made this statement about this X, Y, and Z. It's like, you know, like this guy's having an experience with Jesus during an awful, awful, horrible, grieving period in his life. And I'm just psyched for that. And so I don't know. It's faith like a mustard seed. If that's where Jesus is meeting this guy, then I don't want to.

put up a wall and be like, maybe you should find the right Jesus and go to a good old Reforged Church.

GOBBA GOOL (43:39.766)
I mean, I just want to make sure he's like actually hearing the gospel, but I know.

Jim Salmon (43:45.059)
sure. Yeah, no, I agree. I agree. I know that God being with you is not the full gospel. And of course there's confession of sin and stuff like that. But I also don't get the sense that this guy's like, I'm perfect and God just cleaning my shoes. You know, like we got to start somewhere.

GOBBA GOOL (44:01.982)
Yeah, I know. It's like we talk about, like, you know, a lot of people get upset over iconography, which in our upcoming Down the Road, Down the Road reformation series, we'll talk a lot about that because the debate has kind of cooled down. But it's like we've talked about, like, OK, the grandma waking up in the morning and looking at her little pictures of Jesus on the wall.

Jim Salmon (44:10.723)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (44:19.374)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (44:30.236)
and like praying to Jesus and getting teary-eyed. Like, is she really worshiping the picture? I'm just not willing to go there. I'm just not willing to say she is, you know?

Jim Salmon (44:37.846)
Yeah, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (44:46.102)
I just think there's grace. really think that's at the end of the day, like it's a, anytime you're keeping unity with someone from a different camp, it's always going to be a tension of grace and discernment. But I always, and maybe I'm at fault for this. I lean into grace more, like I lean into grace more because discernment for a long time kept me having some really harsh, really hateful views of people that turned out to be, I think.

GOBBA GOOL (45:10.389)
Mmm.

Jim Salmon (45:15.788)
very much in love with Jesus in a way that I am value, value, find value in.

GOBBA GOOL (45:18.12)
Yeah, like in the same way, like we love to just pick on Rome. I think let's be clear, we pick on the historic Rome.

Jim Salmon (45:29.752)
Can I say that you love to pick on Rome? Because I'm usually Rome's defender in your little Baptist tirades.

GOBBA GOOL (45:35.335)
Mm. Yeah, but I think that, I think there's a lot of Catholics going to heaven. I think you have to, you just have to understand like they're just, I see the memes, like I saw a meme just this morning and it was like, it was like a statue of Mary just like sitting there doing nothing. And it was like,

Jim Salmon (45:42.603)
Absolutely, yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (45:59.699)
Mary just giving birth to God and praying for us. And then it was like the next panel was like a bunch of angry Protestants. And I'm like, OK, see, like, obviously it's a meme and, you know, it's poking at Protestants having issues with veneration of Mary. But like, if that's how the Catholics see it, I'm like, OK, Mary gave birth to God and she prays for us. Isn't that great? I'm like, OK.

Jim Salmon (46:25.282)
Yeah. And I think, and the thing is, is like, when you walk with a Catholic, then you can actually see the stuff that you feel like you is probably good to call out rather than just writing off every Catholic you've never met. Cause some freaking meme page on Instagram told you something untrue about Catholicism.

GOBBA GOOL (46:43.924)
Mm-hmm. Well, it's the same thing that, like, there's, you know, Catholics are notorious for just showing up, receiving their sacraments, and then going home and, literally playing religion. But you know who else plays religion? The angry Southern Baptist that just shows up and wants to sing from the hymn book with, you know, and you better dress a certain way, and if you don't, you're done, and we're going to be really mean to pastor because he wants to change things. That person...

Jim Salmon (46:54.83)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (47:10.126)
Yeah.

Every religion in the world is full of people who just want the least invasive, most comfortable version of their religion. Like that's human nature. It's not specific to Rome or anybody. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (47:21.748)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (47:25.883)
Right. Regeneration does not belong to one denomination.

Jim Salmon (47:32.589)
Yeah. And I mean, like, I, I think I've benefited so much from having conversations with people from different traditions and just being curious. Like if this was me, like 10, 15 years ago, I'd just argue. I'd just be like, well, I heard that you guys believe this. Did you know that's wrong and that's stupid? But instead it's just like, you know, I've heard this about Presbyterians. Is that true? Can you tell me more about that? I'm really curious. Cause then you get to hear it from their perspective and then maybe they're like,

GOBBA GOOL (47:48.871)
in

Jim Salmon (48:01.347)
that is kind of interesting. I never thought that I believed that, but like, honestly, I think there's so much value in just learning from people. Cause even if you don't convince them that they're wrong, you also get to walk away a smarter, more informed person and maybe able to love someone better. So yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (48:14.921)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (48:19.552)
Well, and also remember that your standard parishioner does not speak for their entire denomination. Like, I have heard from so many ex-Lutherans that they're like, well, the Lutherans teach that baptism saves you. And I'm like, I don't think that's in any creed.

Jim Salmon (48:26.306)
True, true.

Jim Salmon (48:42.542)
I think they do a little bit though. I think a little bit, yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (48:44.426)
Do they? How? That doesn't make any sense.

Jim Salmon (48:49.593)
I mean, think Luther was a big fan of a Papstis more regeneration. I don't think it's as weird as some people have made it, but I think they do. You know what? You keep talking. I'm gonna do research. You'd be insightful. I'll be informative.

GOBBA GOOL (49:00.374)
I'm just saying, I'm just saying I don't think they teach like, like literally if you splash a baby, the baby saved. You're telling me. Yeah, but that's what I'm saying. I've been told.

Jim Salmon (49:09.132)
Nobody thinks that.

Jim Salmon (49:13.356)
That's what saying, that's not what baptismal regeneration is.

GOBBA GOOL (49:17.108)
Right, right. Well, there's Protestants that believe in baptismal regeneration.

What do you got? Okay.

Jim Salmon (49:24.578)
Baptism is a means of grace through which the Holy Spirit works the forgiveness of sins.

GOBBA GOOL (49:30.346)
Yeah, that's just a sacramental understanding of baptism. That's not the same as like, baby Timmy was splashed and now has got his ticket to heaven. That's not the same.

Jim Salmon (49:40.632)
See if you talked to more Lutherans, Taylor, you would.

GOBBA GOOL (49:45.748)
No, but that's what I'm saying. I've heard from ex-Lutherans their faulty understanding.

Jim Salmon (49:50.657)
All right, but I'm saying they do believe that baptism saves them. They just don't believe it to like, you know, you know, run and baptize a bunch of people in a shopping mall and get them all saved.

GOBBA GOOL (50:01.224)
Yeah, I don't know. Okay. I don't know.

Jim Salmon (50:04.142)
We'll have more Lutherans on the show you guys, promise. We'll be better. We'll do better.

GOBBA GOOL (50:09.174)
I don't know, as far as I'm saying, I didn't say anything wrong. But yes, guys, I love what you said, John, is just try to walk as far as you can with somebody. And then if you have to like break away, be kind about it.

Jim Salmon (50:13.984)
Unity is fun. Unity is fun.

Jim Salmon (50:21.826)
Yeah, yeah.

Jim Salmon (50:28.278)
Yeah, dude, I, I, if I'm trying to think of, if I ever had this conversation, but you know, people, people get so, I don't want to say bent out of shape, but I'll say it bent out of shape about certain issues. Here's the thing, dude. Like when I was a pastor, if someone came up to me and said, uh, I can't believe that you would dedicate a child and not baptize them. Or if they said, I can't believe that you guys do X, Y, and Z.

Do you know how important it is to do you have any idea? My response would be, I think I know the right church for you. Like, I think I know what you should do. I don't think you're going to have any success changing us and what we do because we have our own tradition and backgrounds and values that we're trying to preach out of. But if that's really important to you, I'm happy to point you in the right direction. Now, I'm not going to point them to a mosque. I'm not going to point them outside of the faith, but.

GOBBA GOOL (51:03.889)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (51:22.664)
You're going to point them to Pastor Chris from the OPC.

Jim Salmon (51:25.656)
That's right. Yeah. And then I'm a send pastor pastor Chris a text message saying he's she's a hothead. Just just keep just just be careful. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (51:30.166)
Heads up. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, exactly. Here's the perfect. So in our personal lives, though, I think we want to be. I think it's worth being when it comes to figuring out where you go to church. I think it's worth being very picky. So, you know, being vague. There was a position that.

Jim Salmon (51:53.048)
Sure, yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (51:59.337)
opened up at a church and somebody came to me and said, Taylor, I think it'd be a really great fit. You should pray about applying. And I checked the church's website and I saw that they did topical sermons. And that was enough for me to go, nope, I'm not doing that. And so you're kind of like, is that really that big of a deal? Well, for me, it is.

Jim Salmon (52:25.208)
Sure, yeah. I mean, dude, I had a buddy who graduated from seminary. He was looking for pastor jobs and he looked at the website of a church that he had actually been in talks to like interviews with. And he found out through the interview or through the website that their sanctuary is like kind of like living room style where it's all like sofas and it's very casual and dressed down.

And it's not a problem, but he was like, this isn't my thing. So he was like, hey, I don't think I can do this. And that's fine. That's okay.

GOBBA GOOL (52:56.714)
Basic. Yeah.

Well, and that's what I've maintained for Southern Baptists is I want to, if I could stand up in front of the whole Southern Baptist Convention in Orlando and say something, it would be like, go to the church where you have all your specific convictions. That is totally fine. And like, I'm happy to be, I'm very conservative. Like I want expository preaching. I only want elder led.

plurality of elders, know, insert all of these things. But like, I'm OK with like, cool megachurch that does, you know, the three steps to financial freedom with Jesus series. And I'm like, that's.

Jim Salmon (53:44.238)
Does the, what's it called? The something university, financial university, the Dave Ramsey thing, financial piece university. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (53:50.519)
Please don't do that on to to to please do not do that on your Sunday morning sermon I'm okay going on mission trips with them You know, so that's all that's that's all

Jim Salmon (54:05.312)
I also think like, you know, the pressure, cause again, it's always, it's always Johnny nuance. the pressure is you want to put yourself in a place where you still have to be pastored because if you find a place that's too much like you, then if you're, if you're super comfortable, you're never challenged, you're never being told anything, then you might've just found a church. That's a perfect reflection of you. And no wonder you love it so much. Like,

GOBBA GOOL (54:32.362)
Well, I think I was going say there's a difference between Pastor Anthony having to tell me I said something rude in a business meeting, which did not happen this time. yeah, like that's being pastored, right? Like being corrected and.

Jim Salmon (54:32.47)
you know, sometimes you need that challenge, but it just, depends on what it is. It depends on what it is.

Jim Salmon (54:45.696)
Right, and then you go to a different church.

Jim Salmon (54:51.938)
Well, yeah, but I'm saying like, you know, there are the members who are like, well, why didn't you talk about this news headline during the sermon? Like, why aren't you talking more about like the state of Israel and stuff like that? Like, yeah, it's like, I could tell you of a really good Israel loving church, but I'm also like, you might need to hear this because...

GOBBA GOOL (55:07.748)
like submit to your pastor. Okay.

Jim Salmon (55:18.047)
you might have an unhealthy thing that needs to be tidied up before I just shove you to another church. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (55:24.246)
Here's a good example. I just had this, we're gonna land the plane, because you mentioned being pastored. So I went down a rabbit hole on the literalness of Job, and I read a bunch of smart people basically talking about how like the truth's contained in Job, like it can still be a myth, where the truths contained in the myth are still true. And we're...

Jim Salmon (55:26.894)
Yeah, are we going to land the plane on this example? OK.

Jim Salmon (55:38.382)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (55:50.465)
I love that.

GOBBA GOOL (55:51.443)
worthy of being like, doctrinally informing, right? Informative. And I went to my pastor and I was like, pastor, what do you think about this? Because up until three days ago, I would never have questioned it. now I'm and he just goes, well, here's like and he just like off the top of his he's an Old Testament scholar. So I like he just like off the top of his head. Off the top of head, he was like, well, this is why it's not true. And I was like, OK, I submit to you.

Jim Salmon (55:57.1)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (56:11.768)
trusted him. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (56:18.932)
I didn't say it exactly like that, but in my mind, I'm like, okay, I'm to let that one go because that is like not even worth it. And Pastor Anthony is such a good guy. If I really wanted to like keep pressing that, like he would meet with me. But.

Jim Salmon (56:22.498)
Yeah. There we go. Yeah.

Jim Salmon (56:35.542)
Exactly. If you cared enough, you could, but if you didn't, you're just like, you're my past. I'm gonna let you lead me. Yeah. Guys, I think we solved the problem and I think you guys should share this episode with every Christian, you know, and I actually, I think you should play this in your next Bible study at your church, and talk about it and then, send it to your pastor and ask your pastor to play it on Sunday instead of his sermon.

GOBBA GOOL (56:41.414)
Exactly. Yeah. So

That's right.

GOBBA GOOL (56:56.104)
stop.

No.

GOBBA GOOL (57:03.751)
Stop.

Jim Salmon (57:05.102)
But I hope that's helpful. This is a big topic. We've said lots of things. I'm positive that you listener have some thoughts bubbling in your head and I would love to hear what they are. So throw them in our comment section. Let us know. Thank you, Isaac, again for sponsoring and for executive producing this episode. We hope to do many, many more for other people who want to give us money.

GOBBA GOOL (57:25.162)
That's right.

GOBBA GOOL (57:30.856)
May is still up for grabs.

Jim Salmon (57:33.455)
That's right, you never know. Maybe. All right, that was Chump Talk. Thanks everybody. See you guys later.

GOBBA GOOL (57:35.154)
Ian.

GOBBA GOOL (57:41.162)
Bye bye!