130. The Fall of Edessa and the Beginning of the Second Crusade

The year is 1144. The County of Edessa falls to the Seljuks. 

The first major blow to the Crusader States takes place, and the Latin Franks have to decide their response. 

Generations have passed since the successful first Crusade where Western Christendom accomplished one of the most stunning military victories in recorded history. It's time to see if lightning can strike twice. 

Join John and Taylor as we dive through Eugenius, Bernard, and the rumbling of thunder before the downpour of the Second Crusade. 

Also we talk about whether it's sanctified to write negative Yelp reviews. What fun! 

Transcript

GOBBA GOOL (00:00.415)
Hey everybody, welcome to.

Jim Salmon (00:00.59)
Hey everybody, welcome, nope, stop it, stop it, it, stop it. Welcome to Treasure Troopers, welcome to Treasure Troopers Shumps. This is John Simon and this is my co-host, Taylor Treadway.

GOBBA GOOL (00:12.235)
Bye.

Jim Salmon (00:14.19)
Speaking of co-hosts, if you're interested in co-hosting this show, I know there's going to be an opening coming up pretty soon. Just imagine me and you in the seat together. Yeah. Someone who knows... I'm the opening. I've always been the opening. I'm the opener. That's right. Always be opening. That's my motto.

GOBBA GOOL (00:18.603)
Wait, who's the opening? Who's the opening? What's happening?

GOBBA GOOL (00:32.051)
You just, you are the opener. I'm, I,

GOBBA GOOL (00:40.369)
A-B-O. Yeah, yeah.

Jim Salmon (00:41.774)
That's right. Yeah. That's why I'm not very good at sales, to be honest. So never know when to close. How you doing, Taylor? How's life? Happy Sunday. I know it's Tuesday when the folks are listening. Actually, it could be any day when the folks are listening, but...

GOBBA GOOL (00:48.746)
What, yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (00:55.795)
It could be three years from now. It could be a thousand years from now, future historians.

Jim Salmon (00:58.2)
Gosh, the world could look, it could be like a.

There's going to be some like book of Eli dystopia. I just imagine like Denzel Washington walking through this like desert wasteland, like with his iPod like earphones in listening to, everybody, welcome to church history for jobs.

GOBBA GOOL (01:17.885)
I know, he speaks ancient American. Yes. I'm good. I'm just, got a massive workload on my plate from school finishing up. I'm writing. So.

Jim Salmon (01:21.07)
That's right.

Jim Salmon (01:32.014)
Lot of bathrooms to clean.

GOBBA GOOL (01:35.475)
Nope. Don't know where to...

Jim Salmon (01:36.59)
You're getting that, you're getting that masters in custodial services.

GOBBA GOOL (01:41.119)
Don't know what to do with that. Now I'm writing two papers at the moment. And then when I prepped this episode, I was almost ready to have a conniption. So one paper I'm writing is on Carl Stat, who was kind of the, he was, I'm kind of like making a claim that within the Reformation, he was like the first to do a bunch of stuff. Which he was.

Jim Salmon (01:51.214)
Mmm.

Jim Salmon (02:09.538)
Carl Stat? Sounds pretty urgent. okay, okay.

GOBBA GOOL (02:10.62)
Yeah, Andreas von Karlstadt. The first the first the main the main subject of the paper is he's actually he puts forth the first written kind of what you would call baptistic understanding of the sacraments. So.

Jim Salmon (02:29.306)
Mmm, was he burned to the stake?

GOBBA GOOL (02:31.802)
No, I had a, I thought about naming the paper Andreas van Carlstad, the Anabaptist who lived, but I was like, yeah, I won't keep it. I won't make it spicy. I'll just keep it dry.

Jim Salmon (02:42.644)
Mm-hmm. I'm glad that you're finally coming to terms with like your Anabaptist roots, that it's not just a name. Actually, that would be a good other paper. Anabaptist roots, not just a name. Why Southern Baptists are more Anabaptist than we'd like to be.

GOBBA GOOL (02:59.024)
You have no idea how inflammatory what you just said was. And that's what's even funnier about this.

Jim Salmon (03:08.386)
I'm just saying, I know how academia works. you wanna get ahead, you gotta stir the pot. And it's a big pot to stir.

GOBBA GOOL (03:15.03)
So if I publish that, no, well, first off, nobody would publish it. Second off, actually, that's not true. Some Mennonite would be like, absolutely. Yeah, I would be ostracized from most Southern Baptists.

Jim Salmon (03:24.962)
They'd publish it. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (03:34.536)
We don't have time to get into this and explain why, but just look up, look up the trail of blood and landmarkism. If you're curious. Anyway, the second paper I'm writing is on Isaac Bacchus and he does not care about my second paper.

Jim Salmon (03:38.592)
I just, you know.

Jim Salmon (03:43.726)
Hmm. Okay. All right. Just curious curious, you know, I did something today

GOBBA GOOL (03:56.511)
Yeah, and then that's in revolutionary time America. And then, so I'm researching Reformation. I'm researching revolutionary, you know, mid 18th century America. And then I'm having to go freaking read 12th century European crusader history. It's too much. I'm all over the place. And I live in 2026.

Jim Salmon (04:00.526)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (04:15.871)
Mmm. Got a lot going on, man.

Ugh, yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (04:23.624)
Okay, now you tell us about you.

Jim Salmon (04:27.234)
I did something today I've never done, or actually I'll say I haven't done in a really long time. I, ew, what? What's wrong with you? I use my bidet regularly, thank you. Not that's any of your business, you freak. Yeah, I had a bidet for years, bro, are you kidding me? I love bidets. Yeah, I love a good bidet. Don't mind if I bidoo.

GOBBA GOOL (04:31.686)
used a bidet.

GOBBA GOOL (04:37.875)
you bought one? You bought one?

They're great, huh?

If go in Japan, they go in, they're everywhere in Japan.

Jim Salmon (04:52.606)
sounds about right? Yeah. No, not that. I I wrote a negative Yelp review. Do you ever write, first off, do you write reviews for anything? Like a good tattoo shop or a beard lengthener?

GOBBA GOOL (04:53.928)
Not in China.

GOBBA GOOL (05:03.53)
No. Do you remember that one? You remember the one time we went to that Korean place and there was plastic in our food and then we asked for free mochi and that guy was like super rude about it and then I went on Facebook and I wrote that review. That was the last review I ever wrote it and then I was convicted so I deleted it. And that was like 10 years ago. It was like 10 years. That restaurant's been closed for...

Jim Salmon (05:11.617)
Huh.

Jim Salmon (05:22.359)
my gosh. That was, I was going to say that was a very long time ago.

brother, no they're thriving unfortunately they are and they're actually really good I think we've all kind of come to terms with the fact that it probably is the best Korean place in town so that's really good yeah I wow I usually I always try to keep it positive I love using Yelp as a resource I love the con I love the philosophy of Yelp it's just like you know how do we know where to go we tell each other where to go we're like encouraging the community

GOBBA GOOL (05:32.04)
Wait, are they really?

GOBBA GOOL (05:39.814)
Wow. Anyway, that was the last review I've ever written.

Jim Salmon (05:57.967)
But I went to a place for like an early Mother's Day dinner with my mom and it was kind of the pits I'm not gonna dox them because I know how ruthless our chump nation listeners can be I'm not I literally just said I'm not gonna dox them. I'll spell it out. I'll say no we have video now. I can't even It's like what do parents do with like kids that can't I can't read it's like we're going to the D E N T I S T tomorrow

GOBBA GOOL (06:08.862)
What was it?

No, who cares?

GOBBA GOOL (06:21.225)
I know.

Yeah, or it's like, should we get MCDONALDS for dinner? Yeah. Was that where you went?

Jim Salmon (06:30.702)
McDonald's? No, that's not where I took my mom for Mother's Day. it's Horseshoe Grill. Yeah, that place was kind of the kind of the pits. It's on the east side. That's the problem. Everything on the east side is dog water.

GOBBA GOOL (06:43.018)
where is it?

GOBBA GOOL (06:47.786)
Is it the one that's like off the wash? Like on the cliff?

Jim Salmon (06:53.287)
No, that sounds way nicer. No, this place is by a sprouts.

GOBBA GOOL (06:58.762)
Okay, okay. You wanna talk about your experience?

Jim Salmon (06:59.606)
Yeah, that's about as exciting as...

I don't want to get into it man, we've got a lot of other stuff to talk about. Thank you for being such a good listener, but no, I think we should get to our comments. No, thank you guys all for commenting on the last video. And you know what? A good guy named Trey reminded us that we actually, as much as we show so much love to our Spotify commenters, we don't really show any love at all to YouTube, which is crazy because YouTube apparently has a pretty big deal.

GOBBA GOOL (07:06.164)
Sounds really hard, man.

I'm

Jim Salmon (07:33.401)
We don't get a lot of traffic over there. Yeah. I think we've got like 46 subscribers. So here's the thing. If you're listening to this, you're not subscribed to us. Imagine you could be one of the first subscribers to the biggest page. Like imagine if you could be one of the first 50 of MrBeast's followers back in 2007. Like that's how big this is. You could really get ahead of a movement. So church history for chumps.

at YouTube. That's not how you search it. But you can find us there. So thank you guys for commenting over there. It's always so interesting. There's a lot of like, there's a weird culture of like Spotify. People will comment and they're pretty consistent and it feels like you're talking to a person. YouTube people will just drop these lines. YouTube comments have kind of always been their whole, a very interesting.

There was somebody who just commented in one of ours who was like, oh, the pope needs to reissue Unum Sanctum, which I had to look up. And that's the Catholic doctrine that says that if you're not a part of the Catholic Church, you are damned to hell. And I was like, I don't think I like that. I don't think I like that comment.

GOBBA GOOL (08:49.674)
So YouTube is where the crazies are?

Jim Salmon (08:52.526)
I didn't use the C word, but there's some interesting stuff. We also haven't given enough shine to probably the biggest legend in Chump Nation, is Daggatar, who writes poems for us in every single YouTube video that we have, or at least probably a dozen of them. So they're all really good.

GOBBA GOOL (09:14.218)
I feel so bad. He's written us a dozen poems. my gosh.

Jim Salmon (09:17.742)
Yeah, and they're always about the episode and they're awesome. They're super cool.

GOBBA GOOL (09:23.242)
Good for him, and he hasn't even gotten a shout out?

Jim Salmon (09:26.562)
You know what? He's one of those like saints of God where he's like, I don't care. I don't care what, what earthly treasures. He knows where his treasures are being stored up. See some of these punks like LM and Jackson, they're getting all their treasures here on earth. They're getting empty, empty withdrawals up in heaven.

GOBBA GOOL (09:29.566)
Dude, yes!

GOBBA GOOL (09:35.455)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (09:40.746)
That's true. I'm pretty sure, I'm pretty sure Elam and Jackson would stop listening if they didn't get shout outs every episode.

Jim Salmon (09:47.721)
I don't think that's true. This is a fully transactional relationship. Also, I want to say, I want to say a special shout out to Isaac. Thank you. he listened to the episode that he recommended. He really enjoyed it. That was the chump talk that we dropped last Friday. Isaac, thanks for listening. He also said that, he's been listening to us for a while and that our podcast has really influenced his interest in Catholicity. And that just makes me happy. I love that. So that's kind of what we, what we try to do.

And he's also got a paper defense on Wednesday, which will be the day after this episode comes out. So I hope that goes swimmingly for you, brother. Yeah. Hope it goes swimmingly.

GOBBA GOOL (10:20.924)
Right. So we're- we're rooting for you, bro.

Yeah. You want to tell people about sponsorship opportunities?

Jim Salmon (10:31.05)
Absolutely, we've got a whole list of perks for people who would like to get more

GOBBA GOOL (10:33.668)
Dude, your eye is so jacked up.

Jim Salmon (10:37.206)
why do you ask me questions and then immediately interject with complete nonsense? You are like an unfiltered child. You're like, there's a helicopter up there.

GOBBA GOOL (10:41.062)
I can't help it. It's not nonsense.

GOBBA GOOL (10:49.207)
That's it. Or like the kids that know the airplanes. That's a 747.

Jim Salmon (10:51.779)
Go on.

Yeah, goodness gracious. I don't feel bad enough about my stupid freaking Cyclops eye over here. Let me talk. Let me talk. No, it's not pink eye. It's not pink. Let me alone. It's not. Hey everybody. I swear you're such a freaking jerk. We have a new perk system on our buy me a coffee. So

GOBBA GOOL (10:56.563)
Okay.

GOBBA GOOL (11:00.17)
Is that pink eye? All right, I'm just gonna have to like hide your camera.

Jim Salmon (11:19.522)
You can throw us a couple dollars, we'll give you a shout out, we'll read you a haiku, we'll do kind of our classic system. If you give us a little bit, the second tier of it is where you get to get a specific shout out from, where we'll do like an ad read for you, it could be like a funny ad read, it could be a real ad read, it could be an ad read, where we propose to your girlfriend for you, my gosh.

GOBBA GOOL (11:42.526)
Dude, I was just thinking that.

Jim Salmon (11:45.283)
That would be a canonical moment in the history of church history for chumps. but yeah, and then the highest one is you literally just get to executive produce one of our episodes, which means that every month we do an episode of chump talk, which is an informal episode where we discuss relevant topics to Christians and you get to suggest it. And we, if we say no, then we'll just like work with you on something that works, but it's fun. We did that our last one and it was, I think our best chump talk ever.

So ever at least top, no top one. can't think of another one. My memory is also really bad. So I literally can't think of another one. So it's getting to my brain. I think it's, it's, it's really slowing me down. I can't feel, I can't feel my left leg, bro. So, no, I'm joking.

GOBBA GOOL (12:15.483)
ever.

GOBBA GOOL (12:23.528)
It's the infection from your eye.

GOBBA GOOL (12:31.518)
Yeah. jeez. It's like, Siri, call Annie. no, Siri, don't call. No.

Jim Salmon (12:43.02)
Yes, don't call my wife you freak. right. Okay. This has been 13 minutes. We need to, we need to move on. Taylor, you're, you're steering the ship today, brother. Where are we going?

GOBBA GOOL (12:50.068)
Yeah!

GOBBA GOOL (12:53.918)
Well, welcome to all of those who have the sense and the wisdom to skip the banter. Secondly, we're returning to the Crusades. So we've been number two. But here's the thing that I've realized. Not every historian agrees in this sort of.

Jim Salmon (13:02.062)
Hmm.

Jim Salmon (13:07.842)
Which one?

GOBBA GOOL (13:18.154)
you know, dissection of dates for Crusade 1, Crusade 2, Crusade 3, 4, 5. They don't all agree. They just kind of like lump it all together, which is fair, except we're going to jump in and say this is the second crusade because there was a big old papal bull that goes out. And I actually have a quote to read as our, for our opener. So.

Jim Salmon (13:23.49)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (13:45.528)
What's a papal bull tailor?

GOBBA GOOL (13:47.998)
Well, it's like a Catholic male cow.

Jim Salmon (13:51.502)
It's like a memo, stop it. gosh.

GOBBA GOOL (13:54.441)
Yes, it's like a memo. But I would say they're a little more in-depth. It's not just like, know, ATTN colon, crusade to go. then, you know, it's like, know, Eugenius the third. And he's like, hey, guys, we're going.

Jim Salmon (14:05.283)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (14:09.954)
Yeah, crusade number two is a go.

GOBBA GOOL (14:23.592)
If you have any questions, contact management. It's a little more than that. This is a quote from it. We exhort therefore all of you in God, we ask in command, and for the remission of sins and join, that those who are of God and above all, the greater men and the nobles do manfully gird themselves, and that you strive so to oppose the multitude of the infidels who rejoice at the time in a victory gained over us.

Jim Salmon (14:26.636)
Yeah

GOBBA GOOL (14:52.362)
and so to defend the Oriental Church, freed from their tyranny by so great an outpouring of the blood of your fathers, as we have said, and to snatch many thousands of your captive brothers from their hands, that the dignity of the Christian name may be increased in your time, and that your valor, which is praised throughout the whole world, may remain intact and unshaken. Eugenius the Third, 1145. So.

Jim Salmon (15:16.91)
Hmm. Hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (15:21.226)
What happens to trigger this? Well, that would be the fall of Edessa. So there was a handful of sort of crusader states. And the county of Edessa in which the city of Edessa is located is, and Edessa is like the capital of it, this was the northernmost crusader state and the weakest.

Jim Salmon (15:29.902)
Hmm.

Jim Salmon (15:49.92)
first crusader state.

GOBBA GOOL (15:51.889)
It was the first and it was also the weakest, which is probably why it was the first to fall. Kind of what happens, the quick summary is, this is where we're going. We're going to look at the fall of Edessa. We're going to look at the guy who took over Edessa. And then we're going to see, we're going to look into this papal bull a little bit. And then we're going to read some of old Bernie of Clairvaux.

Jim Salmon (15:56.494)
Hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (16:20.7)
and sort of his support in trying to rally the troops. Now, I actually think this episode is going to be a little more interesting because I kind of realized something after all of this and will save the majority of this discussion for the second half. But I do think that the people in mainland Europe probably did not understand how nasty

the Crusades were in practice. I don't think they would have understood that because part of the reason historians struggle to date the specific Crusades or if they're even willing to divide them up into specifics is because it's just constant war over there. So there's this sort of, you know, romanticized. Well, it's not romantic yet because that era hasn't happened. But, you know, this

There's this glorified, if you will, presentation that your Christian brothers are being attacked by these nasty infidels and these are the things that they're doing. And you're like, really tug on the heartstrings because I'm thinking like, if you and I are like 21 JS and we're sitting there hearing this, we're like, man, we're not married yet or anything. We're like, dude, they need our help. They need it. We got to go free them.

Jim Salmon (17:33.966)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (17:48.14)
Yeah.

It's like the same draw that gets young Christians to go to China for mission work. It's like I'm untethered to any worldly obligation, no family, no career. I'm looking for purpose, looking for meaning. Yeah, but instead of starting a travel blog, you just get your axe swinging up to par.

GOBBA GOOL (18:14.696)
Right, right. And your family's all supportive. They have a little send off for you. And the thing is, is a little support. That's right. But the thing is, is you get over there and you know, whether you march with your local warlord or you kind of go over there and find somebody to support or whatever. And then you end up at a fort in the middle of nowhere fighting alongside.

Jim Salmon (18:19.394)
More support raising.

GOBBA GOOL (18:40.042)
the different kind of Muslims that you didn't know existed. No, no, these are the Muslims we have a treaty with. We're gonna go kill the bad Muslims, but then the bad, you know, and then you guys kill the bad Muslims, and then you see your people do some pretty horrific things to them. And then, you know, you're like, okay, maybe that's just how it is. And then like the next year you're fighting Christians in the Eastern Church.

Jim Salmon (18:46.135)
you

Jim Salmon (18:56.974)
Hmm.

Jim Salmon (19:07.006)
Right, yeah that seems to be a constant in, at least from the first crusade up to now, which is that the biggest problem in the Islamic world is that they're all fighting each other, so it seems advantageous for Christians to kind of exploit those rivalries to advance what they're trying to do, right?

GOBBA GOOL (19:27.146)
Yes, and that's kind of...

where we'll jump into is this first, this first like Muslim guy who, he gets a chance to gather everybody together and Muslims at least, and he sort of builds a big enough army to retake Edessa. But the big thing I want us to all keep in mind is that there is just constant fighting all the time over there, all the time. So.

Jim Salmon (19:35.054)
Mmm.

Jim Salmon (19:51.489)
Okay.

Jim Salmon (19:58.318)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (20:00.49)
The year is 1144 and the siege of Odessa begins in November 28th, think off the top. And then it actually, they ended up conquering in December of 2024. That papal bull was 1145. So you could see the bull is now roving. But before any of that, you have this guy named, I don't know how to pronounce it because it's probably not Zanji, but it's probably...

Jim Salmon (20:29.228)
I heard Zengi. Yeah. Which kind of makes him sound like, you know, he's from the Jun dynasty. But I'm assuming he's Turkish?

GOBBA GOOL (20:30.588)
Zangie. Nice.

GOBBA GOOL (20:36.112)
I know, I know. Yes, he's Seljuk. So you have this Seljuk guy and he is the king or I think his Arabic title is Atabeg of Mosul and Aleppo. So Aleppo is in middle Syria, southern middle Syria, and this county of Edessa is like

Jim Salmon (20:42.432)
Okay, okay, so he's he's a gotcha.

Jim Salmon (20:51.01)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (20:58.605)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (21:04.39)
a chunk of Turkey and northern Syria. So if you can imagine that, if you're to look at a map, that's kind of where this kingdom of Odessa is, or county of Odessa. And since for the last 50 years, they had kind of aggressively expanded. If you go back and listen to the, you know, Where Are They Now podcast episode post First Crusades, we cover that a little bit, kind of that aggressive expansion. And so

Jim Salmon (21:08.078)
Mm.

Jim Salmon (21:32.13)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (21:33.515)
Zengi, who has a bunch of Arabic titles associated with him, he gets together the army and he attacks. Now Jocelyn II, who was in charge of the city of Edessa, had taken his army out and they were gone during this siege. So conveniently,

the guy who leaves the city undefended is also alive, right? And Zengi, they have this like a one month long siege and then they take it. Now here's what's super interesting. They go in and they have their first wave of pillaging and slaughtering, but then after the second wave, they...

Jim Salmon (22:06.54)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (22:27.742)
They don't, they stop slaughtering and then they sort of start a more disciplined assortment. They allow Eastern Christians to live and stay in their homes.

Jim Salmon (22:37.678)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (22:46.278)
Any... Yes. Any...

Jim Salmon (22:46.44)
so they're like, they're like, don't have a problem with Christians. We just don't like these new guys. Interesting.

GOBBA GOOL (22:53.77)
Correct. We gotta remember, Muslims want Christians. Because who else can they tax? Right. No, no, no, no, don't touch them. That's my money. Don't touch him.

Jim Salmon (22:59.374)
because they pay the tax. Right, right.

But there's also like there's there's a lot of history of Eastern Christians living in Islamic ruled areas peacefully. So they're probably like, well these guys aren't gonna cause a fuss but these Latin Christians we didn't even know they existed until they came with fire and brimstone.

GOBBA GOOL (23:18.814)
Yes.

GOBBA GOOL (23:24.554)
Well, these are the Armenians.

Jim Salmon (23:29.431)
okay. Okay. And the Armenians, they're, shoot, they're, they're neither Eastern nor Western, right? Aren't they Oriental Orthodox?

GOBBA GOOL (23:30.826)
Poor guys can't catch a break.

GOBBA GOOL (23:41.716)
They have their own thing, man. They are the oldest church. They make... Yes, yeah. I think technically our...

Jim Salmon (23:47.06)
Right, they're kind of up there with the Ethiopians. That's interesting. So there's a big Armenian population in Odessa. Wow.

GOBBA GOOL (23:56.211)
Yes, and I think technically the Armenian Christians are the oldest, technically, but it's fun. It's fun to point out when, you know, I get told to be very careful and watch for Muslims extremists when I go to Ethiopia that I'm like, it's the oldest Christian country because they're the oldest. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're the they're the oldest that hasn't that never fell to the Muslims.

Jim Salmon (24:03.192)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (24:14.83)
Like it is predominantly very Christian.

Jim Salmon (24:26.678)
Yeah, yeah, yeah,

GOBBA GOOL (24:27.388)
So anyway, the Jocelyn, the second's wife was actually Armenian Christian. So they started intermarrying and they see they see the East and West seem to be getting along here. And I do think they generally got along at this point, generally speaking, but there was definitely spats of people not acting very Christian. So they burned the Latin churches.

Jim Salmon (24:34.894)
Okay. Yeah.

Jim Salmon (24:41.037)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (24:57.044)
that had gone up. So they take out Latin churches. But they allow Armenian and Syriac churches to exist, untouched.

Jim Salmon (25:07.982)
Okay.

GOBBA GOOL (25:09.354)
So they take over. You do what you do when you conquer a city. You start rebuilding and repairing the stuff that you've broken. Now, this little fall of Edessa was sort of like a wave. It was a wave of panic for the Westerners and for the Muslims. This was like the beginning.

Al-Kai-Sareen-Sarani, Al-Kai-Sarani, who was a poet of...

Zanghi, not Zanghi, Zanghi. So Al-Kasrini, Sarani. I'm so sorry for my Arabic pronunciation, everybody. Al-Kasrani, who was a poet for Zanghi, he said, if the conquest of Odessa is the high sea, Jerusalem and the Sahel are at shore. So Jerusalem.

Jim Salmon (25:51.629)
Zengi, Zengi, Zengi. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jim Salmon (26:13.582)
Hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (26:17.052)
is still very much what they want. Yes. I'm going to share a little bit when I was doing my research. First off, even in the age of the Internet, stuff is so hard to find now. And, you know, I was trying to find Al K. Serrani's poems and I could not find like a collection.

Jim Salmon (26:19.086)
That's the prize. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (26:45.62)
But then I can find like every Paypal bull ever issued and I do find that amusing. that's...

Jim Salmon (26:52.664)
think there's a pretty good reason for that, man. The Catholic Church is preserved a lot more than these Muslims getting stomped out by crusaders will.

GOBBA GOOL (26:55.752)
Well, the- Right.

GOBBA GOOL (27:04.53)
Right. Well, I wanted to read some of his poems. I could only find excerpts that were like contained in random people's papers.

Jim Salmon (27:13.526)
Anything inspiring?

GOBBA GOOL (27:16.402)
He did write some pretty sick stuff about the infidels, you know, but there was also some gross stuff that I found that I think, I think we've talked about it. Tommy might've mentioned it writing about like relationships with little boys romantically. I know it really does. yeah. That you, you look that up. That's a thing in the past.

Jim Salmon (27:26.07)
Okay.

Jim Salmon (27:36.827)
Ew, what? And this is an Islamic writer, right? Okay.

Jim Salmon (27:46.445)
yeah so it's like romantic but kind of pedophile romance ugh okay not a good that's it's got to be such a bummer if there's like so many good arab poets in this time period but the one whose stuff is preserved is like the guy that everyone thought was a creep which i don't know if that's true yeah

GOBBA GOOL (27:47.014)
Yeah, and

Yes. Yeah. Not not

GOBBA GOOL (28:06.14)
Well, I don't know, I mean, we don't know how depraved they really were. And that's kind of like, what's the guy who wrote, you know, Sword and Simtar?

Jim Salmon (28:17.832)
Abraham.

GOBBA GOOL (28:19.166)
Yeah, Ibrahim's point is kind of like they were debaucherous heathens and deserve to die, which, you know, we're not exactly on board with that. But hey, mean, he points it out. And yeah, it is icky. It's wrong. And it kind of

Jim Salmon (28:28.494)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (28:34.006)
Not a good reflection on cultural values. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (28:36.554)
Correct. So at the same time, they're like, do not touch the Armenian and Syriac churches. And then there's also, they're doing this kind of stuff. But Odessa Falls, Zangi puts, well, the leader of the Eastern Church there was just happy to be like, hello, my new liege. Yes, you are in charge, yes. And so.

Jim Salmon (28:49.496)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (29:00.75)
You

Jim Salmon (29:04.568)
They're like, we're not under any illusion that we're going to be taking over any time soon. We just want a good landlord.

GOBBA GOOL (29:08.714)
Right. Here is your GZA and thank you. And we're going to go back to doing our thing. So.

Jim Salmon (29:15.47)
yeah. Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (29:21.866)
Zengi was, he used the same rhetoric that the Crusaders were using, right? The holy war rhetoric. So we have an inscription dated to 1138. So this is a few years before this from a Damascan religious school. And it was patronized by him, the Atabeg. So Zengi may have had some.

Jim Salmon (29:28.728)
Okay.

GOBBA GOOL (29:50.973)
influence over what was said on it. But it described him as the fighter of Jihad, the defender of the frontier, the tamer of the polytheists and the destroyer of heretics.

Jim Salmon (29:53.486)
sure.

Jim Salmon (30:05.046)
I will say that is one I know it's meant to be derogatory. It's the same. It's the same spirit where the Crusaders call Muslims Mohammedans like they worship Mohammed like them calling Christians polytheists. I just think that's that's such a funny like derogatory term where it's like, yeah, you know, these polytheists out here not worshipping the one true God. I just I don't know. I love that as like a little Christian slur. I think it's great.

GOBBA GOOL (30:16.052)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (30:29.064)
I know.

GOBBA GOOL (30:34.108)
Yes, it, yes, calling, well, it's like what the Romans did, away with the atheists. So Zanki supporters, they were big on trying to, obviously they're gonna try to like capitalize on this fall of Odessa as much as possible. So they did describe, they described Jocelyn here, Jocelyn the second.

Jim Salmon (30:39.894)
Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Jim Salmon (30:53.454)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (31:00.162)
as an intransient devil, fierce against the Muslims and cruel. So he was not, he was not, you know, seen fondly. And the, wife though, Beatrice, I guess she didn't, they, Jocelyn II got captured again, but his wife was able to sort of remain, she sold off.

the remainder of her Latin country to the Byzantines and that a lot of Frankish Christians flee from that for some reason. What I'm trying to convey, so there's two things I want to talk about here. One, this is just pure chaos all the time and that's kind of the vibe that I've gotten from any research around this time period. Have you gotten the same thing?

Jim Salmon (31:34.712)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (31:55.182)
Yeah.

Yes.

GOBBA GOOL (31:58.751)
Yeah, there's just like no stability. It's really hard to like get a track of what's going on because every five years something major happens. Somebody dies, different cities fall hands, boundaries are always, or change hands, boundaries are always being redrawn, cities falling, new guys rising up, really hard to keep track of. And then.

Jim Salmon (32:16.69)
But even beyond that, would say the fervor of the first crusade was such a culture making moment that like, mean, we talked about this when we talked about our epilogue episode that Boamond goes back to...

goes back to Europe and he's treated as this hero and then what does he want to do? He wants to launch his own crusade against the Byzantines because he holds a grudge against how they treated. like there's these like many unofficial crusades that are dropping constantly where it's really just this like folksy gathering of people who have this religious cause that they want to claim. But yeah, like even beyond the instability, there's also just like the crusade fever has not died down at all.

GOBBA GOOL (32:54.238)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (33:01.59)
Right. Well, it has a little bit and we'll get to it. But you remember you even pointed out that they had to summon old Bernie to sort of rally the troops again. At least, but in the East, they're all about it, right? The people that are over there are all about it. Yeah. So yes, Odessa falls to the Seljuk Turks. Zengi builds his empire stronger.

Jim Salmon (33:12.219)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (33:19.384)
Sure.

Definitely, yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (33:30.052)
And now there is a threat. There is a threat. And as we saw, we have the papal bull that goes out from Pope Eugenius III. And fun fact, it was the first papal bull issued with a crusade as its subject.

Jim Salmon (33:51.178)
that's kinda nifty. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (33:51.867)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And it goes out early in 45, so not too long after the fall of Edessa. So a couple lines in here. I already read that one choke or choke quote.

Jim Salmon (34:04.206)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (34:12.256)
Is this the quantum, quantum predecessor is predecessor is. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (34:16.104)
Yes. Predicisaurus, yes. You know, Paypal bulls are not usually named.

Jim Salmon (34:23.394)
Yeah, that's just the first line, Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (34:25.118)
Yeah, yeah, in Latin.

Yeah, he's right. I found this on Fordham University, or Fordham.edu. So thank you people for that. See, I can find this, but I can't find obscure, questionable poetry. Yeah.

Jim Salmon (34:44.92)
Poetry.

You

GOBBA GOOL (34:54.152)
You know, he already talked about remission of sins. That was the quote that I pulled. And then if you keep reading down, he says, given moreover, providing with paternal solicitude for your tranquility and for the destruction of that same church, do grant and confirm by the authority conceded to us to God, to those who by the promptings of devotion.

Jim Salmon (34:59.406)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (35:17.588)
do decide to undertake and to carry through so holy and so necessary a work and labor that remissions of sins which our aforesaid predecessor Pope Urban did institute and do decree that their wives and sons, their goods also and possessions shall remain under the protection of ourselves and of the archbishops, bishops and other prelates of the Church of God. So right there you have that same promise. Hey, go over there and fight. We'll take care of everything on the home front.

Jim Salmon (35:46.453)
and the spiritual front.

GOBBA GOOL (35:48.299)
And yes, yes, we've hit that ad nauseum. If this is your first episode listening to us, one, welcome. Two, go back and listen through some of the older episodes where we sort of talk about the disgusting practice of indulgence. It really is the same thing as getting your 40 virgins.

Jim Salmon (35:52.782)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (36:14.574)
It's a hot take. It's a hot take.

GOBBA GOOL (36:17.052)
It's the same equivalent. It's not rooted in truth and it's go commit Jihad, go commit holy war for the sake of spiritual rewards.

Jim Salmon (36:26.878)
come on. You're gonna make me defend the crusaders right now. Because it's not entirely the same. So I'll say this. These calls to crusade are usually defensive. It's usually like there's something going on, there's Christians over there, they're being attacked by people who are not Christian, which means that they're, you know...

GOBBA GOOL (36:32.17)
Do it

Jim Salmon (36:53.172)
instruments of evil and we need to protect them. It's not quite jihad because jihad is literally world domination. Jihad is make every knee bow to Allah. This is like we got to get our brothers back. But that's the thing and this is where I think that a lot of modern Christians tend to get more sympathetic towards crusading than I think they should be is that it's good PR.

GOBBA GOOL (37:07.306)
Mmm.

Jim Salmon (37:20.438)
Like the PR is always, let's do a good thing. But then the good thing is you're sieging a country and you're slaughtering women and children and you're, you know, burning down villages along the way and you're recruiting these undisciplined, feudal culture Europeans basically. But they know how to dress it up. Yeah. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (37:39.646)
That's a good counterpoint. Yes, yes, that's a good counterpoint. I am just so disgusted with the practice of indulgence. maybe I over-assigned something to it. But yeah.

Jim Salmon (37:50.934)
I get it, I get it, yeah.

Jim Salmon (37:56.047)
Well, it makes sense. again, the notion that, and they're promising remission of sins to people who are probably already baptized members of the Catholic church, maybe not Holy spirit filled, you know, spirits of the fruits of the spirit demonstrating people.

GOBBA GOOL (38:09.203)
and

GOBBA GOOL (38:15.026)
Yeah, well, yeah, you have to remember they don't have even a remotely like solid soteriology.

Jim Salmon (38:22.966)
Yeah, I mean at this time Catholicism or Christianity is not strong, but it is pervasive. And so everyone already thinks they're a Christian. So they're basically just saying, this is your one way ticket to heaven.

GOBBA GOOL (38:30.579)
right.

GOBBA GOOL (38:37.692)
Yeah, I mean, I tend to think it's more paganism, what they're doing, where dressed up is Christianity, where you're, you know, you have to do these rituals to guarantee your salvation.

Jim Salmon (38:50.83)
Yeah, I mean, I don't know, we can get into all that stuff later. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (38:52.362)
So they get their little promise of their ticket to heaven and their rewards for going and waging war. And yes, you are correct. It's supposedly a defensive move. It's supposedly a defensive move. And that is where it is a little more understandable. The Seljicks are not, like, they're not good. So...

Jim Salmon (39:07.447)
rights.

Jim Salmon (39:15.085)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (39:20.416)
Right. Right.

GOBBA GOOL (39:21.494)
We haven't really given them much of the benefit of the doubt because they don't really deserve it. But yes, as we talked about at the beginning, you know, the 21 year olds that are like, let's go do something good. They get wind of this. And then for some reason, they don't. They they don't want to. They don't want to.

Jim Salmon (39:27.182)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (39:43.459)
Well, I mean, it's this this this feels like what war has been for a thousand years, honestly. It's like, you know, you've got a leader sitting in an ivory tower who's like, we have this noble mission we need to accomplish. We need to stop the spread of this evil thing, whether it's Islam or

communism or you know fascism or whatever so like every person who's ever enlisted in a war from now to 1144 AD has always been like yeah I'm doing even if I'm not religious I am doing a good thing that is going to make the world a better place. I don't think every

nation has done that, but I do think that's a very Christian undercurrent of like, this is a good, godly, this is a righteous thing that I am performing. And the problem is the narrative that the leaders spin for us are often deceptive, and they really don't underscore the complications and the nuance of what it actually means to travel and shed blood.

GOBBA GOOL (40:47.878)
Yes. And if you want to feel even more icky about it, at the end of the Papal Bull, he talks about those who are oppressed by debt. They don't have to pay interest. So you're kind of like, why does the church get to decide that? And if you like have other oaths or something that would keep you bound.

Jim Salmon (41:04.576)
Yeah, all right. Right.

GOBBA GOOL (41:15.498)
They were worth the exact line.

Jim Salmon (41:26.616)
Dude, it's Jubilee. It's a Jubilee via warfare. What a cool thing!

GOBBA GOOL (41:28.938)
Yes.

Yeah, and if they or others are bound by oath or pledge in the matter of interest, okay, yeah, we absolve them by apostolic authority.

Jim Salmon (41:41.954)
You got any student loans? Consider it paid for, my friend. man, paid for that, you purchased that Nissan Altima with, didn't realize how bad your credit score was, huh? You still got those payments on that 08 Altima?

GOBBA GOOL (41:49.63)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (41:56.573)
Why was it a Nissan? Why did you pick a Nissan Ultima?

Jim Salmon (42:01.774)
it is man I don't know still paying off that that Silverado huh well hey what if what if Papa Gene Gene can just make that go away

GOBBA GOOL (42:02.026)
Amen.

GOBBA GOOL (42:05.822)
Yeah, that's right.

GOBBA GOOL (42:11.304)
Well, and he, yes. So basically the church is overstating their authority here. I don't think they're actually overstating. I think they have the authority. I think, I guess so.

Jim Salmon (42:24.014)
Because like, they allowed to do that? Because like, I imagine interest is not something set by... I mean, there's relations between the church and the state, but...

GOBBA GOOL (42:32.252)
No, is the problem when the church is in charge, my guy.

Jim Salmon (42:36.654)
Yeah, mean, hey, I'm not arguing. I think that's interesting.

GOBBA GOOL (42:39.024)
Yeah, anyway, they send that out and they don't really get a lot of response.

Jim Salmon (42:50.498)
Hmm. Kind of a dud.

GOBBA GOOL (42:51.878)
So, yes. And so if you remember Eugenius, old Jean as you said, he was, he was Bernard of Clairvaux's sort of little guy. Yeah, he came up under him. And then Bernard was like, you don't, you should not be Pope.

Jim Salmon (42:59.086)
Our man, Gene.

Jim Salmon (43:04.066)
They're pals. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (43:13.278)
But then he became, yeah, then he became Pope. But yes, but then when he called him the crusade, Bernard loved crusading. Like, like he loved it. Now here's, here's where Augustinian just war theory comes into play.

Jim Salmon (43:13.506)
He said that?

Okay.

Jim Salmon (43:23.412)
Such an interesting thing. Yeah. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (43:37.163)
So let's put ourselves, not in 2026 where we have all these sources that tell us every little thing that happened. Let's put ourselves back in Bernard of Clairvaux's shoes who he just reads a bunch. He's read Augustine, he's read Contra Faustus, he's aware of what justifies a war.

Jim Salmon (44:00.184)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (44:06.81)
And he hears about the evils that are happening to Christian brothers in the East. Of course, he's like, let's go do something. So in the same way, Bernie also now he does not get a pass for the indulgence thing. There's no pass for that. Wrong, wrong, wrong. But I don't know, man. He's happy to come alongside and use his.

Jim Salmon (44:12.258)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (44:35.71)
rhetorical skills and his massive platform to bolster the crusades. Now I did not decide to mention this too much, but the second crusade was already getting ready to happen, so to speak, because Louis VII of France was already making moves to go.

Jim Salmon (44:40.11)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (44:55.436)
so this, that's what kind of kills me. Right. Which kind of stands to maybe not totally defensive. Let's help out our brothers. There were already plans to make something happen here.

GOBBA GOOL (44:56.862)
Before the fall of Odessa, I believe. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (45:10.462)
Yeah, no, that wasn't, this is like early imperialism, religious imperialism. Yeah, that's why I know it's a hot take to say this is equivalent to the jihadist promise in Islam to receive your rewards. But yeah, it's not good. And then all you have to do is get the pope to tell people that their sins are forgiven and they'll go take a bunch of land for you.

Jim Salmon (45:16.054)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (45:27.031)
Right.

GOBBA GOOL (45:38.955)
because you get their little hearts and affections stirred up. yeah, Bernard, though, he goes, and there's this famous sermon. There's some art done of it. But in Vesalet, in a field, it's Palm Sunday. And this is in France. It's Palm Sunday. He gives a sermon that somebody called The Speech of His Life.

Jim Salmon (45:39.374)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (45:43.137)
Right. Right.

Jim Salmon (46:07.64)
Dang.

GOBBA GOOL (46:08.906)
They, it says that they ran out of cloth as people were taking the cross. If you remember what taking the cross is, is it's the crusader cross onto your shirt so that you were labeled as a crusader. So he got people, he got people. And then I think you had mentioned that there was supposedly some miracles involved in that.

Jim Salmon (46:19.754)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (46:24.034)
Right.

Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (46:36.462)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (46:37.874)
Now, we don't have Bernard's sermon. We have a reconstruction that I didn't really trust the historicity of. But we have two letters. We have two letters from him that would have probably been similar to what he was saying. So we have a letter to Eastern France that he writes, and then we have a letter to England.

Jim Salmon (46:44.334)
Mmm.

Jim Salmon (46:51.681)
Okay.

Jim Salmon (47:00.247)
Okay.

GOBBA GOOL (47:07.242)
that he writes, summoning them to the Second Crusade. So here's his intro. We're not going to read the whole thing, but I do. This is what Bernard's letter sounds like at the start. Oh, yeah. Yeah, They survived. I mean, it's, yeah, you got to think, like, they just, if somebody wrote down what he said, it was just lost.

Jim Salmon (47:08.673)
Okay.

Jim Salmon (47:19.662)
Okay, and these feel pretty authentic, right? Okay. Okay.

GOBBA GOOL (47:35.441)
So as far as like the speech, we don't have like if he wrote it down and then shoved it in a journal somewhere and you know it rained and leaked on it 300 years later, you know. So yeah. So to the lords and very dear fathers, the archbishops and bishops with the whole clergy and the faithful people of eastern France and Bavaria.

Jim Salmon (47:48.692)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, I gotcha, I gotcha, yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (48:00.159)
Bernard, called Abbot of Clairvaux, desires that they may abound in the spirit of strength. Doesn't that get you going? Yeah. Yeah. So he says, I write to you with respect to a matter which concerns, here you go, the service of Christ in whom is our salvation. This I say in order that the Lord's authority may excuse the unworthiness of the person who speaks.

Jim Salmon (48:08.494)
I'm hooked, I'm ready.

GOBBA GOOL (48:25.546)
Let the consideration of its usefulness to yourselves also excuse the faults of my address." So he's kind of like, he's kind of already like, I'm just a simple messenger. I indeed have a small account, but I have no small love for you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ. I don't know what that means, but I'm guessing in old timey French that meant right. Yes.

Jim Salmon (48:50.082)
very heartfelt. Yeah, the bowels of Jesus. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (48:54.44)
This now is my reason for writing to you, that I may thus approach you as a whole. I would rather do so by word of mouth, if the opportunity as well as the will were afforded me. So here we go. Behold, brethren, now is the accepted time. Now is the day of salvation.

The earth also was moved in his tremble because the God of heaven has begun to destroy the land which is his. His, I say, in which the word of the Father was taught, where he dwelt for more than 30 years, a man among men, his, for he enlightened it with miracles. He consecrated with his own blood. In it appeared the first fruits of his resurrection. And now for our sins, the enemies of cross." Probably meant, probably the cross would be inserted in there. So that was like...

Jim Salmon (49:40.856)
Don't correct him.

GOBBA GOOL (49:42.622)
Dirt.

Jim Salmon (49:44.462)
He's a doctor of the church. I think he probably meant the cross. Hmm. I don't know. A little high and mighty here. Okay.

GOBBA GOOL (49:47.847)
No, this is the translator. It might not have been an article. Okay. Cross have raised blaspheming heads ravaging with the edge of the sword the land of promise for they are almost on the point if there were be not one to withstand them a bursting into the very city of the living God of the holy places of the spotless lamb with purple blood. Alas, they rage against the very shrine of the Christian faiths.

with blasphemous mouths, it would enter and trample down the very couch on which, for us, our life lay down to sleep and death.

Jim Salmon (50:25.582)
Hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (50:28.11)
So already... yeah, I see the face. It's weak. This is... Yes, we love Bernard, but...

Jim Salmon (50:33.111)
Yeah

Jim Salmon (50:38.862)
No, we do, we do. And I will say, from what I've read of Bernard, that actually does track pretty well as far as like his writing style. And very eloquent, you know, he speaks very highly, you know, where our Lord for 30 years hath lived and performed miracles, died and was resurrected. This holy land that is now besieged by...

GOBBA GOOL (50:56.436)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (51:01.888)
those who hate the purpose and divinity of Christ. it's, it's, but here's, here's the issue is like the presupposition being made is one that, I mean, I think you kind of have to make an argument that because Jesus lived there, it now has some grand geographic significance, which I don't.

GOBBA GOOL (51:05.17)
Yes.

GOBBA GOOL (51:23.242)
correct.

Jim Salmon (51:23.618)
think is inherent, but I think the second one is like, man, I was really trying to be like a little bit more nuanced than balancing, like that was that's there. There's that's jihadi language, bro. It's literally saying like, this is a place where people don't respect our God and we need to go there and tell them what's what with violence if necessary. And that is that is jihad. That is a hundred percent jihad.

GOBBA GOOL (51:30.663)
You can't do it!

GOBBA GOOL (51:46.174)
Right. Yes, with the only reason being this is where Jesus was.

Jim Salmon (51:54.453)
Right, exactly, exactly. And you know, what keeps you from extending that, we're doing it because it's Jerusalem too, we're doing it because it's this remote island of, you know, pagans who don't worship Christ, or we're doing it because it's new Spain, and now you've got these Aztecs and Incas and stuff, like, at what point do you not do that? This really, man, yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (51:56.253)
Okay.

GOBBA GOOL (52:12.882)
Yes.

GOBBA GOOL (52:17.898)
I know. So like they're blaspheming in the Holy Land. Okay. So why is that worse? It's sloppy at best. it's like, kind of, there's probably some insidious ulterior motives.

Jim Salmon (52:25.463)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (52:30.562)
I this is why you send missionaries, right? If they're blaspheming in the Holy Land, you send missionaries. And there's the thing, the monastic orders that sent missionaries was not like dead in the water. So it's not like there was no notion of evangelizing through community at this time. They were just like, but you know.

GOBBA GOOL (52:48.278)
I don't think they had any semblance of understanding of like what we would understand a missionary to be. No. No, the modern, Jesuits later, way later, and even then their missiology is a little off compared to what we would. Right. Yeah.

Jim Salmon (52:57.012)
Not a modern one, but I do think that... You don't think so? When did the Jesuits become- Actually, no. Jesuits were like 17th century, I think. Yeah.

Jim Salmon (53:10.814)
It got weird like everyone's did but they were probably fine back in the day 16th century yeah our boy Iggy Iggy Iggy low

GOBBA GOOL (53:19.082)
Ignatius was it? Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll talk about them on some future episode. Yeah. The Jesuits. OK. Yes, it's bad, dude. It's a bad reasoning. It's bad understanding. And sorry, Bernard, if you're listening in heaven to us talking about you, that'd be great. What if he left a comment?

Jim Salmon (53:22.614)
Yeah, of Loyola. He's a Spaniard, yeah.

We'll get there. He was Basque. Okay. The Jesuits.

Jim Salmon (53:42.775)
I hope he is.

Jim Salmon (53:48.206)
Dude, dream podcast. Us, Bernard, Gavin Or-

GOBBA GOOL (53:56.159)
nailed it. Yeah. So yeah, but also, we always, you know, throw out any motives that can give them any benefit of the doubt that these people valued pilgrimage. They valued locations wrongly, but they valued them. So

Jim Salmon (53:56.686)
Dream rotation for orange juice drinking.

Jim Salmon (54:13.581)
Mm-hmm.

Mm. Yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point.

GOBBA GOOL (54:19.722)
And then he goes on to say, he quotes some scripture. Will you give what is holy to the dogs and cast your pearls before swine? Great hermeneutics. He jumps in. What are we then to think, brethren? Is the Lord's arm shortened so that it cannot save because he calls his weak creatures to guard and restore his heritage? Nobody's calling you to do that. Well, I guess the church is.

Jim Salmon (54:27.212)
Wow, that's interesting.

Jim Salmon (54:44.718)
You

It's like, wait, does God call us to guard and restore his heritage? is God like, bro, I swear if you let this place.

GOBBA GOOL (54:54.618)
Yeah, he's basically, and then he goes on to say like, and the Lord could just speak a word and make it free, but Uncle Bernie wants you, right, to fight for the Crusader army.

Jim Salmon (55:13.058)
is not good. Honestly, you give what is holy to the dogs is such a, such a damning, like that's, it is, it's very bad. And that's literally something that Jesus said. And it's like, would you give this holy lands to unholy people? That's like, that's what Jesus was talking about, bro. Like, that's real, that's real bad.

GOBBA GOOL (55:28.805)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (55:36.293)
No. In some ways, that's kind of the opposite of that passage. Because because Jesus is using that tongue and cheek, right? When he's talking to that lady, he's like, who are you to talk to me? You're not supposed to talk to me. And then she's like, but I want to. And he's like, yes.

Jim Salmon (55:41.035)
Yeah, yeah.

Jim Salmon (55:47.318)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (55:53.621)
Right.

GOBBA GOOL (55:56.447)
You're right. And now, you know, the infidels are living in Jerusalem or they want Jerusalem. So the last we'll jump down to the British letter and then we'll land the plane. So in England, it's not this letter is not as flowery. They were both written in the same year. He's this is his this is his intro. I address myself to you, the people of England.

Jim Salmon (56:08.141)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (56:25.288)
in the cause of Christ in whom lies your salvation. I say this so that the warrant of the Lord and my zeal in his interests may excuse my hardy hood in addressing you. I'm a person of small account, but my desire for you in Christ is not small. That's such a good line. I'm a no, I'm a nobody. Just a humble of super famous.

Jim Salmon (56:43.118)
I'm telling you, he's like, I'm just a humble guy, but I'll tell you what's not humble. But I'll tell you what's not humble, my love for that guy. Yeah, that's a big old love right there.

GOBBA GOOL (56:55.978)
Yeah. And then he also drops his, I would have preferred to do so by word of mouth.

Jim Salmon (57:05.28)
I wish I'd be there. I wish I could be there face to face. I'm so sorry. He literally he was literally dropping gems from from Paul the Apostle, bro. It's like, if only I could be there.

GOBBA GOOL (57:06.44)
Yeah, I know, dude.

Yes. If only I could be with you. Now is the acceptable time. Now is the day of abundant salvation. The earth is shaken because the Lord of heaven is losing his land, the land in which he appeared to men and which he lived amongst men for more than 30 years. And then he kind of repeats the same. Yeah, it's good, but it's propaganda more than anything.

Jim Salmon (57:32.65)
Right. Right.

GOBBA GOOL (57:36.125)
And then they say, alas, if there should be none to withstand him, he will soon invade the very city of the living God, overturn the arsenal of our redemption and defile the holy places which have been adorned by the blood of the Immaculate Lamb. And then he and then he's like, what are you going to do about it? Mighty Vannavalor, mighty warriors of the cross. So they they wanted to wage holy war. And I think the question is.

Is there a legitimate call of holy war being waged here within the context of Augustine's Just War Theory?

Jim Salmon (58:11.214)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (58:22.607)
Let's pull up our metric, right? Like the four points of...

GOBBA GOOL (58:27.964)
Are their motives good? And is there are there more? Well, remember, I only had two points.

Jim Salmon (58:35.83)
Right, but the official one is, what is it? It's serious prospect of success, not over excessive use of arms, practical, and is the damage inflicted by the aggressor lasting, grave, and certain?

GOBBA GOOL (58:44.638)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (58:59.446)
So what's interesting to me here, and maybe you can clarify, maybe I'm off about something. Bernard is talking about Jerusalem, but Jerusalem is still in Christian hands at this point. Only Odessa has fallen.

GOBBA GOOL (59:11.954)
right, but they're scared they're going to lose Jerusalem. So we have to go back and conquer everything. The question that I have when it regards to whatever, you know, I took my two pillars from Contra Faustus. said that Augustine said that you had to have right authority and right reason. Technically, in this time, the church has the ability to call

Jim Salmon (59:15.125)
I see. I see.

Jim Salmon (59:32.632)
Sure.

GOBBA GOOL (59:40.819)
for it, technically. They probably shouldn't have that authority, but they do. And then you get into the reason, well, if your heart's in the right place, is that a right reason?

Jim Salmon (59:42.158)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (01:00:00.853)
No, no, that you could be deceived. Our heart is wicked, above all things.

GOBBA GOOL (01:00:05.106)
Right, right. Because even Augustine points to the hasty zeal of Peter and he's like, he was getting there when he swung the sword. His desire, that's the thing, his desire to defend the Lord, that's Peter. And we can even say St. Bernie. Their desire to defend the Lord is good. But how they're wanting to do it is not right.

Jim Salmon (01:00:13.184)
Right.

Jim Salmon (01:00:20.238)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (01:00:27.754)
Yeah, and that's the problem. Yeah. There needs to be an objective. It's like, I don't know why I thought about this, but it's like every hospital needs to have an ethics committee because since you're dealing with so much in terms of life and death, you need to have an objective overseer. That's what Jesus was to Peter. He was like, I get what your motive was, but as your ethical guide, weird way to put that, what you're doing is wrong. So

The question is, what happens when the Catholic Church is Peter with the sword cutting the ear off the guard and there's no one over the church saying, actually, this is not right? I think that's the problem.

GOBBA GOOL (01:01:13.234)
Yeah, well, because the church benefits from this because they get lots of money and relics and territory.

Jim Salmon (01:01:18.814)
Right. They get relics, they territory, they get to expand trade routes, they get to kind of irk the Byzantines who they've been beefing with for a couple hundred years at this point and just schismed with less than a hundred years ago.

GOBBA GOOL (01:01:24.638)
Yes.

GOBBA GOOL (01:01:34.057)
Well, because imperialism kind of like feels wrong for most people, right? Like you don't really go in and just like kick people out of their homes for no reason. Did we did we mention Isaac McCoy last week? Our favorite. I was talking with somebody. But remember Isaac McCoy when he's writing to like the white people and he's like, how would you feel if the Chinese came over here and kicked you out of your towns?

Jim Salmon (01:01:41.13)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jim Salmon (01:01:47.758)
Right.

Jim Salmon (01:01:52.941)
I don't think so.

Jim Salmon (01:02:03.103)
Right, right.

GOBBA GOOL (01:02:03.708)
So I think across generations, across all of history, people have kind of understood that you don't really just walk into people's homes and unnecessarily kick them out. That's kind of wrong.

Jim Salmon (01:02:17.484)
Well, it's like the whole manifest destiny thing. It only works if you believe that what you're replacing for that person is good. Like, it only works if you believe that you're actually doing good to someone. Which, I mean, again, I don't want this to be like a loaded comparison, but I would imagine that a Muslim who sternly believes in jihad also sternly believes that he's giving this person life and freedom and,

GOBBA GOOL (01:02:26.024)
Yes.

GOBBA GOOL (01:02:31.071)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (01:02:46.838)
prosperity, you know, the best thing possible. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (01:02:46.892)
of course he. Yeah, of course he does. Because, well, there's also a level of like, I think they want to give Islam prosperity and subjugate everyone who does not convert.

Jim Salmon (01:03:01.091)
sure, yeah, yeah, yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (01:03:06.952)
because you're supposed to convert. But it's the same thing that these guys are essentially wanting to do. They're not wanting to necessarily subjugate. They don't have a jizza. So it's like, OK, maybe they're better landlords in a way. They're not wanting to go and basically just have feudal slaves. But they do want to keep this land in Christian hands for poor academic reasons, theological reasons. Their arguments are bad.

Jim Salmon (01:03:07.288)
But I mean... But then...

Jim Salmon (01:03:17.646)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (01:03:22.029)
Right.

Jim Salmon (01:03:33.07)
Sure, sure.

GOBBA GOOL (01:03:36.633)
yeah.

Jim Salmon (01:03:36.781)
Yeah. Well, it gets, I mean, this is where I mean, and it's, it's interesting because this is kind of a very interesting foreshadowing of what we see in a lot of Christian history. Cause like, I know colonialism is a very loaded term and I think it's thrown around more hastily than it should in like current dialogue. But like, this is a similar thing that you could say, happens in like Africa.

with the early missionaries, but then it ends up being a missionary endeavor that really becomes more transactional, where it's about establishing kind of puppeteer governments, finding ways to exploit the resources within Africa, and then channeling that money back to the empire. So like, you know, there's a lot of this like, let's do it for the Lord.

but also if we do it for the Lord, we'll actually kind of make our bank accounts look pretty good too. So there's this like mixing of ulterior motives that kind of gets messy.

GOBBA GOOL (01:04:40.978)
I know. That's why I like modern missionaries. Just God bless them.

Jim Salmon (01:04:45.656)
Dude, a missionary that's like, I mean, as much as I just lament the sadness of having to support Ray's so much, I'm also like, dude, I love that you're not, like a missionary who has to wrestle to just put food in their mouths every month, I know is a missionary who is really called to do something like that. And yeah, I don't know. There's a lot. There's a lot.

GOBBA GOOL (01:05:02.174)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (01:05:05.97)
No, they go over, they're going over to foreign countries like with no agenda other than like, OK, maybe they get to enjoy like, you know, living in Japan, right? Like, yeah, that's cool. Japan's cool. You can enjoy that and have a little more adventure. But you're going over there for the purpose of spreading the gospel, not building a business or whatever. You know, and even then.

Jim Salmon (01:05:16.76)
Sure.

Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (01:05:31.318)
Yeah. Yeah, you're not just a crony for the Queen anymore.

GOBBA GOOL (01:05:37.417)
Right. And even then, if you're going over into a foreign country to transact business, and you also happen to be somebody who's a Christian, and you're missionary stuff as well, hopefully you have the wisdom not to like conflate the two. I would imagine a lot of Christians do have that wisdom. It's just very different than, let's go in and take over these lands violently.

Jim Salmon (01:05:56.899)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (01:06:06.006)
Yeah, yeah, I do think, I mean, and it makes sense why this conversation around colonialism, but also missions work. again, like nationalism is becoming a conversation where it's like, well, what's the alternative? Like what else can we do? What else should we be doing? It gets messy.

GOBBA GOOL (01:06:28.33)
I was thinking about this because I see some.

nationalistic discussions and people are really upset about the, you know, all the mosques being built in the Dallas Fort Worth area and all the immigrants that have like flooded in and Europeans are getting sick of it too. And I was thinking about like, what's, what would you do if you're like sitting with Bernard of Clairvaux in like a counseling chair? And he's like, well, of course we have to go back. And then you walk him through and it's like,

Jim Salmon (01:06:42.936)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (01:07:03.838)
You get him to realize, well, maybe God doesn't care so much about this specific spot, as I thought. The New Testament authors didn't really seem any keen to remove Roman authority. So maybe it doesn't matter who's in charge. And he's like, but this feels bad. And then you kind of just have to let somebody sit in that. You'd be like, yeah, it feels bad. It feels bad that a bunch of mosques are being built in DFW.

Jim Salmon (01:07:10.264)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (01:07:17.87)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (01:07:27.958)
Right. Right.

Jim Salmon (01:07:33.122)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (01:07:33.491)
and a bunch of Muslims are coming and they're spreading a system of belief that is contrary to what you have and we can even say it as Christians contrary to the truth. Yes, that feels bad. But what can we do about it? And then you have to use the Bible as your authority. Nowhere. You have to do mental gymnastics to get to

Jim Salmon (01:07:52.365)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (01:08:03.562)
taking over with holy war. You have to do mental gymnastics even. You were, this is maybe spicy. You have to do mental, you have to do mental gymnastics to get to the place where you say, want to kick out immigrants. I'm not talking about like illegal immigrants that are not documented and sort of like actually causing harm to our system. I'm talking about like came here legally, are paying taxes.

Jim Salmon (01:08:12.63)
No, no, no, I'm... keep going.

GOBBA GOOL (01:08:33.49)
You want it what you now they're here. They're building their life. You want to kick them out for what purpose? Well, I don't I don't I don't I don't like what they believe. I don't like. Well, I don't I don't know, man. Evangelize them spend time with them.

Jim Salmon (01:08:49.218)
I think what you said was really, really powerful. Especially the notion that we just have to like, we have such a reflex of like, I'm in an uncomfortable position. Now what can I do to springboard myself out of this discomfort? Where it's like, all right, how like something feels off and I'd like for something to not feel off. I mean, like it really is a comfort thing. It's like.

You know, I'm so uncomfortable to be in this situation How can I exert my influence to make sure that I don't have to share this comfort anymore when in reality it's like

Do we serve a God who never speaks through suffering? Like, do we serve a God where suffering has no interaction with the Christian? Like, the sad reality is, if we serve a God who we believe is constantly trying to springboard us out of suffering, that really doesn't square with the Jesus who was the man of sorrows, you know?

GOBBA GOOL (01:09:26.25)
you

GOBBA GOOL (01:09:46.891)
Right. I think it can come down to this idea of like, yes, losing feels bad. But the Christian, I'll sound like a prosperity preacher. The Christian doesn't lose. Ultimately, ultimately we don't lose. But yeah, I mean, things that the world values, we do lose all the time.

Jim Salmon (01:09:57.579)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, right

Jim Salmon (01:10:14.23)
Right. Right.

GOBBA GOOL (01:10:15.176)
The Jews also lost a lot too. The faithful Jews were punished alongside Israel all the time. We talked about that in Sunday school, you know, because we're in Isaiah. So the remnant that they're getting scattered about too. And foreign armies are invading too. They're paying for the sins of their countrymen. But.

Jim Salmon (01:10:24.387)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (01:10:31.362)
Right.

GOBBA GOOL (01:10:38.186)
Ultimately, you have to ask yourself, what do I trust? Do I trust my own discernment or do I trust what God has said? So, yeah, it sucks to think about immigrants kind of coming here and bringing Islam and spreading. That's a scary thing. Or you can think about it like, hey, we now have the mission field here.

Jim Salmon (01:10:48.248)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (01:11:06.199)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (01:11:06.93)
And we can go work with them and we're going to try our darndest to do that. It sucks, Bernard of Clairvaux, to think about where Jesus walked and died and was resurrected, that that's, you know, maybe going to fall into the hands of the enemy again. But are you going to go kill them for it?

Jim Salmon (01:11:27.852)
Yeah, yeah. I... We could keep going, but I think we should land the plane, as you love to say. Yeah, there is a lot of... There's a lot here. And yeah, this is some of the comments I'd love to hear from you guys who are listening, because I think we're touching on this... Because it almost seems like what Claire... What Bernard of Clairvaux was saying is like, what is our posture towards the foreigner who does not share...

either our background or heritage or most importantly our faith. I think Bernard had this like anxiety of like they're in a holy place and the holiness needs to kind of wash them out of it. But that's also kind of pricking us where we're at today because we're noticing that a society that's felt pretty comfortably Christian for a long period of time is maybe not feeling that so much. I think that's not necessarily objectively spot on.

statement but yeah like what do you what do you feel and what are you thinking we'd love to hear about it that's all I got yeah all right yeah but thank you guys we got lots more second crusade I don't think our trek through the second crusade will probably be as long as our one on the first but we do have we've definitely got some stuff to get into we've got some sieges and will they succeed

GOBBA GOOL (01:12:34.204)
Yeah, that's good. That's good stuff.

GOBBA GOOL (01:12:52.69)
and some Knights Templar?

Jim Salmon (01:12:55.055)
That's right. So we've got some things to talk about. So thank you guys so much for listening. We really appreciate it. Leave a comment, give us a like, find us on YouTube, sponsor an episode, do whatever you want to do. Have a wonderful day. know, drink some tea, buy a fancy coffee, tell your wife she looks beautiful. That's all I got. Pet your dog. All right. Thanks guys.

GOBBA GOOL (01:13:16.299)
Pet your dog. Okay. Bye bye.