131. The Templar Knights and the Doomed Road to Outremer

The Second Crusade has begun. Louis VII and Conrad III, respective Kings of France and Germany, have gathered their troops and are prepared to walk in the footsteps of their crusading forefathers. 

Their troops eagerly anticipated sharing the glory of the heroic first crusaders. The morale was sky high. 

But things were not as they seemed. Both German and French armies faced tough losses right away, and soon they realized that this may not be the walk in the park that they'd hoped.

Also, we're going to take a deep dive into the most meme-able face of the Crusades, the Templar Knight. Where did they come from? Where did they go? Something something Cotton-eyed Joe??? 

Also guys, Taylor is so excited about our BuyMeACoffee perks that he has literal chest pains. Check it out! 

Transcript

Jim Salmon (00:00.684)
Hey everybody, welcome to Church History for Chumps, my name is John Simon and I am here with my good friend and fellow big dog, Taylor Treadway.

GOBBA GOOL (00:08.846)
Ayo! dude. Okay. Okay. So, you know, I wasn't gonna share this, but I believe in transparency. I believe, I believe being vulnerable also helps other people. So on all week, all last week, and I didn't even say anything when we were recording last week.

Jim Salmon (00:10.626)
How you doing, Taylor?

What's going on? Talk to me.

Jim Salmon (00:22.626)
Wow, we're getting into it. Okay, all right.

Jim Salmon (00:30.722)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (00:35.278)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (00:38.758)
but like I was having chest pains and yeah, hold on.

Jim Salmon (00:41.486)
Taylor... Taylor!

GOBBA GOOL (00:45.308)
And after like all week, and I told my office like on like Monday and Tuesday, I was like, I don't know, my chest kind of hurts. And they're like, Taylor? And I was like, it's fine. It's fine. And then I finally on Friday, it was like getting worse. And I was like, guys, it's getting worse. And they were like, go to the hospital right now. So I went to the hospital. My poor mom and dad listen and they're like, oh my gosh. I didn't tell them. So.

Jim Salmon (01:09.826)
They don't know. You should probably call them before this airs.

GOBBA GOOL (01:13.372)
No, it's fine because so I went to the hospital Friday morning. I was there for like three and a half hours and they ran every test known to man. They did an EKG. They drew like eight vials of blood. They did a chest x-ray. So I'm healthy as a horse, a fat horse, a fat horse, but but I am healthy. So it's literally it's literally just stress. And I think it is.

Jim Salmon (01:30.946)
What kind of horse? Yeah, there we go. That's good.

GOBBA GOOL (01:40.752)
You know how I'm always like, I go to school full time and work full time and also work at church. What do you namby pambies have to do? What's your excuse? Well, thankfully it wasn't actually a heart attack or anything remotely close. But yeah, I think Big Dog over did it this semester.

Jim Salmon (01:49.292)
Yeah. Then you have a low grade heart attack that makes you go to the hospital. Right.

Jim Salmon (02:03.589)
I'm glad that you are almost done. And I'm glad, do you, are you getting like a little break for the summer too?

GOBBA GOOL (02:08.891)
Sort of. I'm taking like two fun classes. It's like, it's not gonna be that bad. I take my Hebrew exam tomorrow, but anyway, yes. And then on top of that, was also, this week, I was also like, you know what? I'm gonna start eating healthy. I like, that'll help my stress. I do miss, I do miss pizza, but we're back on the train. We're not gonna, we're not gonna stress ourselves to the point that we die and we are,

Jim Salmon (02:13.997)
Okay.

Jim Salmon (02:24.919)
Mm-hmm.

Probably, yeah.

Let's go man, I love it.

GOBBA GOOL (02:38.319)
We're gonna eat healthy.

Jim Salmon (02:40.469)
I love it. You know, I, do you remember that saying? I don't know if you've heard this saying before, but it's like, you are the average of your five closest friends. there's a-

GOBBA GOOL (02:50.745)
Yeah. That's why I claim Optimus Prime, Barney the Dinosaur, and you.

Jim Salmon (02:57.421)
Yes, top five. There was a time when my top five closest friends were some, were some heavier, heavier gentlemen. Yeah, it was, it was a bet. Yeah, you weren't even at the top. You were, you were an average fellow. And yeah, that, that brought me down health wise. And now I have these wonderful friends that I hang out with every week and I

GOBBA GOOL (03:04.949)
dude, we were all like, I was in the middle of the pack.

I wasn't even close to the top. Yeah.

Jim Salmon (03:23.885)
love our time together, but they're all so healthy and they all go to the gym and I'm just like now I'm clearly the bottom and I'm like son of a gun. can't.

GOBBA GOOL (03:31.739)
You went to- you were the top. Remember when you could like jog around the neighborhood for like five minutes and you were like, wow! Look!

Jim Salmon (03:36.538)
dude, don't make me get emotional. I used to be, I used to run for fun. I was like a karate master. I'm a fourth degree black belt. Nobody knows this about me anymore, but I'm a fourth degree black belt. All the confidence, none of the skill to back it up. Yeah, it's, it's bad. So maybe we'll do like a, maybe we'll do like a weight loss challenge between the two of us or something.

GOBBA GOOL (03:44.083)
yeah.

Right. But now you're like Steven Seagal, Black Belt.

GOBBA GOOL (03:56.782)
Yeah... I know!

GOBBA GOOL (04:03.099)
You know, yeah, we could do a summer challenge. We could get even all the viewers in. Here's what I'm doing. I am avoiding, for the most part, I'm avoiding all kind of like grains and bread and corn. Like, because I have to make the corn rule because if I'm like, well, it's just a corn tortilla. It's really just vegetables if you think about it. So that's kind of what I'm doing. Like no sugar, nothing like that.

Jim Salmon (04:09.984)
Okay.

Jim Salmon (04:20.653)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (04:31.647)
Okay, kinda Whole30-ing it, huh?

GOBBA GOOL (04:34.209)
I guess that's what people keep saying and I'm like I've never heard of that. I don't like labels.

Jim Salmon (04:38.783)
It's good, because then can look up Whole30 recipes. It's basically just like protein and veggies. Yeah, you'll be eating like ground beef and cucumbers or whatever.

GOBBA GOOL (04:41.475)
So, wow.

GOBBA GOOL (04:45.594)
Yeah, thanks.

It's like a... yeah, that's kind of the gist.

Jim Salmon (04:51.285)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay. I'm down. I've got like a little home gym I've been working on. I'm trying to like, you know, do a little bit of lifting of heavy things, trying to get my step count up, just like basic sustainable things. I can't do the crash diet thing, but I can try to build just a sustainable, healthy lifestyle.

GOBBA GOOL (04:52.827)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (05:10.969)
Well, here's the thing. You mentioned you're the sum of all your friends. I was looking at the school, or working at the school, and I see our president, and he is just a lean, mean, Baptist machine. And you know what he does? He runs all the time. So when he's even out traveling, which he travels for half the year, he goes for runs. And Adam doesn't eat sugar.

Jim Salmon (05:16.247)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (05:26.125)
Wow.

GOBBA GOOL (05:39.737)
I've like seen him eat like a piece of cake and I've been around him a lot and he like eats a piece of cake, you know?

Jim Salmon (05:40.461)
Wow.

Jim Salmon (05:46.414)
Christians love to run, I've noticed that. Like, it's like a devotional form of working out. I... I know, I read... That's right, run to the line for food, run to the drive-thru.

GOBBA GOOL (05:48.759)
I don't, mean, not at, not Baptist. You know what? Baptists like to run to the buffet line.

Yeah. Yes. Yes. So, but I do think I do think Christians that are like healthy people are like, yeah, I run and I just listen to my podcasts.

Jim Salmon (06:04.438)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (06:10.753)
They do. My theory is that Presbyterians never have to work out because they smoke so much.

GOBBA GOOL (06:16.051)
Heather's never hungry. Half of my calo- half of my caloric out intake is alcohol.

Jim Salmon (06:17.857)
That's right, yeah, they're just killing their appetite.

Jim Salmon (06:23.597)
Yeah, dude. mean, if you're having a craft coffee for breakfast, a cigar for lunch, and then, you know, double shot of whiskey for your chaser to go along with your little raw steak, bro, you've had 800 calories that whole day.

GOBBA GOOL (06:31.291)
and a steak.

GOBBA GOOL (06:36.315)
That's, that is, that's, we just described Presbyterians to a T. Yeah. Yeah.

Jim Salmon (06:43.373)
I think so. Yeah. All right. Well, uh, let us know guys, if you want to jump on board our weight loss challenge. Yeah, we'd love it. We really did. Uh, we appreciate all the love for our conversation last week. That was a fun conversation. I think we'll definitely have some good stuff to add to it. Um, I, got a, not a funny com comment. We got one.

GOBBA GOOL (06:52.387)
That's right comment comment. Hey, we got some good comments. So,

GOBBA GOOL (07:02.203)
Mm.

Jim Salmon (07:08.957)
on literally the second episode that we ever did. This is a three year old episode and this person I think is probably Catholic and was pretty critical of what me and Thomas said. The hilarious thing is I don't even know what we said. I'm not the same person I was back then. I'm sorry.

GOBBA GOOL (07:23.033)
Yeah, guys, start like last March. you're going to go ahead, start last March if you're going to listen to it.

Jim Salmon (07:31.746)
We're like the band now, where it's like that band where it's like, they weren't the same after Thomas left. And then it's like, no, they weren't, they weren't even a band until Taylor showed up. And then I'm, I'm just Mr. Consistent. You'll miss me when I'm gone. That's all I'll say. no, well, thank you for all the comments. thank you to our good friends on YouTube who keep our YouTube, life alive. Dagg Guitar, thank you so much for getting back into the poem writing that made my heart.

GOBBA GOOL (07:34.202)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (07:41.283)
Yeah, that's right!

GOBBA GOOL (07:47.341)
You're not going anywhere.

Jim Salmon (08:01.473)
just sing and swell up when I saw it. He did. Yeah, I probably shouldn't say made my heart swell up.

GOBBA GOOL (08:02.779)
Because he finally got a shout out. I got to say Anthony, Anthony, no last name or no last initial, just Anthony commented, I just realized that the word county comes from the nobility title count. I, Anthony, I didn't even realize that while I was doing the episode. So, you know, this is, this we're all learning.

Jim Salmon (08:12.407)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (08:18.432)
It's crazy.

Jim Salmon (08:29.165)
was like, that's great. He literally did that episode. I appreciate that Mike Duell pointed out how funny it was that when I called John and Charles Wesley, the John Lennon and Paul McCartney of the Christian hymnal. I'm pretty sure I said that and just everyone completely avoided it. So that bothered me. So thank you for, thank you, Mike, for saying that. Yeah, I think we'll definitely have some more interesting things. I mean, I think now is the best time as ever just to say, guys,

GOBBA GOOL (08:31.643)
I did. I, you know, I had, I did.

GOBBA GOOL (08:46.84)
Jim Salmon (08:58.797)
Clearly Taylor is in need of medical help. We don't want to do a GoFundMe, but we would love to do a Buy Me a Coffee. Every donation you do will keep Taylor alive for one more week. And don't you want another episode? Several episodes, I would say. So please donate. Our slot for May is wide open for Chump Talk. You can literally tell us what to do an episode on. That is how much power we're giving to Chump Nation right now.

GOBBA GOOL (09:01.691)
my gosh

GOBBA GOOL (09:17.422)
Wow.

GOBBA GOOL (09:25.825)
Mm-hmm. Ooh, you know what we could threaten? Because remember in June, I was like, me and JS were talking on the phone. And I was like, hey, man, we could, for chump talking, in June, I could kind of sum up the Southern Baptist Convention. And John Simon goes, you know, maybe.

Jim Salmon (09:29.761)
Hmm.

Jim Salmon (09:38.849)
Dude, I might just bail on that episode. That might be a solo. I was like, might be a solo episode, I might get sick that day.

GOBBA GOOL (09:47.227)
my gosh. Hey everybody!

Jim Salmon (09:53.366)
Yeah, but no, it'll be a good time. I'm also, you know, I'm spitballing right here. I think I'm going to try to put some images. You know, I want to reward the people who actually watch our episode. And I realized that going through all of these freaking regions over so much territory is so much easier with maps. So I think when I do my editing, I'm going to try to plop some maps on there for people to look at. I know.

GOBBA GOOL (10:13.979)
oooo

GOBBA GOOL (10:18.169)
Wow, we are moving up in quality. You see, got a little lamp back here. Yeah.

Jim Salmon (10:21.581)
That's how much we love our listeners and our viewers.

Yeah, it's kind of fuzzy. is it moving? There's Brandy.

GOBBA GOOL (10:29.659)
No, I'm home alone. I'm just kidding. She's sitting behind me. She's sitting behind me.

Jim Salmon (10:34.397)
That lamp hasn't moved in 10 years.

Yeah, the only other thing I knew to talk about was I went to Shake Shack today and that's the exact opposite of health goals, but it was really tasty.

GOBBA GOOL (10:40.558)
Well.

GOBBA GOOL (10:45.625)
Dude, I actually, for me and my little older 34 year old tummy, little tum tum, dude Shake Shack is too greasy. it, man, cause even the fries, they don't just let the fries be already fried potatoes. They gotta like douse them in garlic aioli.

Jim Salmon (10:53.357)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (10:57.504)
Really?

Jim Salmon (11:08.407)
Well I realized something yesterday that made my Arizona heart weep, which is that I don't think I can have chorizo anymore. It gives me real bad heartburn. It just burns me up. I felt it in my chest immediately and the tums were not enough.

GOBBA GOOL (11:14.683)
Noooo

GOBBA GOOL (11:20.185)
What about like a little bit of chorizo y huevos?

Jim Salmon (11:25.793)
That's all it was. I made chorizo with eggs and over a couple of tortillas. Yeah, that little veggie side.

GOBBA GOOL (11:30.787)
Hey, it's vegetables. Yeah, actually, that's so, that's like the fat, that's like big boy logic. I had, I had chorizo eggs and veggies for breakfast.

Jim Salmon (11:40.759)
That's right, yeah, this was for dinner, okay, so was at least Brinner. But yeah, anyways. All right, well, should we jump into our episode for today?

GOBBA GOOL (11:46.04)
I'm so sorry.

GOBBA GOOL (11:50.907)
Hey, welcome to all the people that skip banter.

Jim Salmon (11:54.86)
That's right. You guys have no time to waste and we're not here to waste it. So let's get right to the meat and potatoes. in. Alright. So ladies and gentlemen, this is the next step into the endeavor of the second crusade. And I was explaining to Taylor a little bit earlier. This is going to be almost a half and half episode because we're going to spend half of it continuing on our journey after the great call.

GOBBA GOOL (12:01.337)
right in to the chorizo and potatoes.

Jim Salmon (12:24.683)
that Taylor broke us down in to with the Bernard of Clairvaux and Pope Eugenius and kind of how that was very different from the call to the first crusade under Pope Urban the second. But what I want to share is this nifty little song. I'm not going to sing it, but I will. I will read it along as a poem. This was a this was one of the crusader poems, like a little rallying song they would sing when they were marching to battle. So here we go.

Who goes along with King Louis will never be afraid of hell. See, Taylor's already upset. His soul will go to paradise, where angels of the Lord do dwell. Edessa is taken, as you know, and Christians troubled soar and long. The churches there are empty now, and masses are no longer sung. O Knights, you should consider this. You who in arms are so renowned, and then present your bodies to one who for you with thorns.

was crowned.

GOBBA GOOL (13:25.173)
dude, that would make such a sick chant, like in a minor key. Yeah. Yeah, like the people that can do the bass. Yeah. man. Yeah, I mean, it's bars, but theologically questionable.

Jim Salmon (13:30.477)
It's good. It's good. Get some, give some real deep, deep voice, big boys in the back.

Exactly, exactly. So, so yeah, that was a... Yeah, that's right. So Taylor broke it down for us really well last week. If you haven't listened, definitely check that episode out. But essentially, the real catalyst for what's starting the second crusade is that Edessa, the oldest yet most vulnerable of the...

Crusader states also known as Outremer or for the French, Hours Remeure has fallen. sorry. Okay. Nevermind. Ray, can we cut that out? Thanks, Ray. So yes, Odessa was the northernmost. It was basically flanked on all sides by Muslim territories and the Byzantines and as we'll kind of talk about the

GOBBA GOOL (14:15.714)
we don't, hey, we don't need to speak French. It's okay. Yeah, it's all right.

Thanks.

Jim Salmon (14:37.857)
Byzantines and Crusader states really didn't like each other too much. So it was very vulnerable and under the force of the Zengid dynasty, another Seljuk territory, it's going to take down Edessa in 1144.

GOBBA GOOL (14:53.037)
I definitely feel like with that guy's name, we have to clarify he was Muslim. Because if you're like, you have the Zangief dynasty, people are gonna be like, what's China doing over there? Yeah.

Jim Salmon (14:57.322)
Right, it is.

Yeah, it's like, did China show up, dude? What? I'm so lost. No, he was, he was a Seljuk. Yeah. Yeah. So Pope Eugenius is going to kind of sound the alarm, trying to say, Hey, we need, we need another crusade. We need to send our people back East to, you know, kind of save the day and

Not a great resounding response. The people are kind of burnt out. There's been a lot of things going on. People aren't really that excited about it. Gets involved the Abbot theologian Monk Bernard of Clairvaux who does some what you could argue are theological gymnastics to say, hey, let's get everybody on board.

GOBBA GOOL (15:46.415)
Be like, who's like an equivalent? Like in popularity, like for Bernie, like John Piper.

Jim Salmon (15:50.869)
I don't know.

Jim Salmon (15:55.752)
I'd be bigger than that, man. It'd be like Matt Chandler, maybe. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (15:59.918)
Wow, just gets just the rallying cry.

Jim Salmon (16:04.285)
yeah, cause he's like based in Texas, had that cancer thing. So we suffered, people empathize with him. you know.

GOBBA GOOL (16:12.345)
And then he shows up and is like, Odessa has fallen.

Jim Salmon (16:16.309)
Yeah, and he's like, Christian, do you care about what Jesus is going through? So yeah, big rallying cry. What's interesting about how the response to the second crusade happens is that there's two big dogs that are going to get involved right away. And they're not just counts or dudes with royal blood, like in the first crusade. These are actually kings.

GOBBA GOOL (16:19.417)
Right.

Jim Salmon (16:43.597)
So you've got the King of Germany or the head of the Holy Roman Empire and the King of the Franks, King of France. You've got Conrad III and Louis VII.

GOBBA GOOL (16:54.263)
Which, that's like the two big dogs.

Jim Salmon (16:57.813)
Yes, absolutely. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (16:59.375)
We should stop saying big dog, probably. But it's like that, it doesn't get bigger than that.

Jim Salmon (17:02.637)
Head honcho.

Jim Salmon (17:08.149)
No, no, we're talking Mastiff territory. Great Dane. yeah, yeah. St. Bernard, ironically enough.

GOBBA GOOL (17:13.775)
Wow, I don't know any breeds bigger, but I'm sure they're... The real St. Bernard.

Jim Salmon (17:21.801)
That's right. Not all kings and leaders are of course going to get involved. And what's interesting is when we kind of get into the cast of characters, we'll see there were a mixture of opinions on this. So you've got Roger the second, he's the king of Sicily. These were all the Normans are. All these dudes are, well, they have no interest in the Crusades for a couple reasons. One, they're clashing with the Byzantines. And so...

They have no interest and they're kind of hope because I believe Roger was kind of buddies with Conrad, the German king. So he was kind of like, sweet, if I can get Conrad and his armies to leave for a while, then I won't have this peacemaker and I can start making some pot shots at the Byzantines.

GOBBA GOOL (18:09.883)
Correct me if I'm wrong, because I genuinely don't know. But from my understanding, Southern Europe was kind of not super stable at the time. Does that sound right? So Sicily, Sicily would have had other things going on. They're like, I don't, you know. Why would I care about your crusaders?

Jim Salmon (18:22.913)
I think that's true. I think that is true.

Jim Salmon (18:34.541)
Spot on, spot on, yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (18:35.855)
That's actually, that was a recording of Roger the Second.

Jim Salmon (18:38.869)
That's right. Yeah, I think they always kind of had other stuff. Cause I mean, when you look at this map, blink, I'm gonna put the map up right here. Actually, I should put a little marker clip. There we go. I made a marker for myself. They're right across the Adriatic from Serbia, from Croatia, from the Byzantines. And then south of them is going to be more Arab Islamic territories. So yeah, they're...

GOBBA GOOL (18:47.583)
wow, you put it up for me.

Jim Salmon (19:05.431)
They've got all this naval stuff going on. They're not worrying about these dorks up north. And then interestingly, the Northern territories, so the Saxons, the Danes, these guys, this was like one of my favorite little things because, so when they're doing this rally and cry to be like, hey, you know, we're gonna go, we're gonna do what our fathers did 50 years ago. We're gonna fight and we're gonna give support to the Christians in the crusader states.

And the Saxons and Danes were like, we don't really want to do that. But there are these pagans in like, you know, this little area across from us, these Wens who are pagan worshipers. What if we didn't like help you guys out, but we could just fight them instead? And cause you know, their territory is really valuable.

GOBBA GOOL (19:56.134)
Can we get indulgences for killing our neighbors?

Jim Salmon (19:59.382)
And that's exactly what happens, dude. There's some scholarly controversy, but I think it really leans in one direction. Because some would say that the Pope was basically like, all ye go out and conquer. And that's what caused all of the skirmishes around this time. I don't think that's what happened. I think what actually happened is...

GOBBA GOOL (20:01.567)
my gosh.

Jim Salmon (20:23.629)
there was like this retroactive like, oh well we're already fighting these pagans over here, could that be a crusade? And then the pope is like approved. And literally there will be like in 1146, there's a quote I have, I forget what the name of the document was, but this is from Pope Eugenius III in 1146 where he says, we give heed to the devotion of these men and to all those who have not accepted the cross for going to Jerusalem.

GOBBA GOOL (20:33.174)
my gosh. Sure!

Jim Salmon (20:51.883)
and who have decided to go against the Slavs and to remain in the spirit of devotion on that expedition as it is prescribed, we grant that same remission of sin and the same temporal privileges as to the Crusaders in Jerusalem.

GOBBA GOOL (21:03.821)
is literally the spirit of devotion. It's like he's got the spirit of a crusader in him.

Jim Salmon (21:10.765)
That's right, he's got, can feel it. He can feel it just deep down. He's really got it. So.

GOBBA GOOL (21:15.417)
That opens up a whole giant dialogue that we don't have time to get into about what really were the Crusades then. Because if the Holy Land is supposed, like that's what Bernard was all about, right? Like this is where Christ's blood was shed and you're gonna let it belong to the pagans. But like, why would God care about some patch of forest in the same way that he cared about Jerusalem? If the...

Jim Salmon (21:23.079)
Absolutely.

Jim Salmon (21:30.252)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Jim Salmon (21:43.659)
That is the problem, yes. Is that, and the same thing is happening in Iberia, which is modern day Spain of course, and Portugal, they're kind of doing their own thing, fighting with Muslims.

GOBBA GOOL (21:44.739)
Yeah, interesting.

GOBBA GOOL (21:54.929)
Don't say of course, don't say of course like we knew what Iberia was.

Jim Salmon (22:00.237)
Honestly, I'll say this has been a very challenging episode for me because my just European geography is so bad I'm like, what am I looking at here? It is yeah Sicily is southern Italy. Yeah You did great. I you looked really I feel like you knew exactly what you're talking about

GOBBA GOOL (22:06.627)
honestly, it was a miracle. Sicily is old Italy, right? That's a miracle I knew. Yeah, it's a miracle I knew that.

GOBBA GOOL (22:18.011)
Right? Yeah.

Jim Salmon (22:19.38)
Yeah, and so yeah, there are several little skirmishes that are happening around this time that will be labeled as crusades even though they don't have the connection to the Holy Land, the argument of self-defense, and so I was thinking really hard about last week's episode because I was like, I did call these crusaders like Christian jihadists. I was like, I gotta really make sure how I feel about that, but this is it.

GOBBA GOOL (22:45.165)
the more you learn about it you're like ehhh yeah yeah

Jim Salmon (22:47.326)
It's actually more damning, honestly, which is rough. So yeah, but anyways, back to our friends, Connor and Louis. So you've got Comrade III, King of Germany, Louis VII, King of France. Both of these, they're gonna install regents in their respective kingdoms to ensure that the royal obligations and duties will still be tended to and they're leading their armies. They're going.

GOBBA GOOL (23:13.495)
so they're going themselves. Wow.

Jim Salmon (23:16.82)
Yeah, that's what makes this so big. This is a big, big deal. There's this moment with Louis where he goes to Saint Denis where there's kind of this big ceremony where it's like this invocation. He's showing up and everyone's like, man, this is the king. And he raises the standard of Charlemagne.

up in front of the crowds and you know it's this very emotional like my gosh our king is going to fight for us but he's he's more than that he's going to fight for Christ he's going to defend the people of of you know the crusader states and so there's that he's gonna gather all of his troops at at Metz with all the French armies and they're going to leave toward the crusader states towards Outremer in in summer of 1147

Just a couple of months after King Conrad will have left in May from Germany in Regensburg

GOBBA GOOL (24:15.068)
When did Odessa fall again? It's been a week, so I haven't. OK, good. Yeah, it's been a week, those dates are gone.

Jim Salmon (24:19.02)
1144. Yeah, I get it. get it. Here's the thing. I'm an expert in this stuff for about 45 minutes and then it's art. That's right. So trouble is going to hit the crusaders almost immediately. Yeah, interesting thing that needs to be said for context. this is, it's just this ongoing, this is what I love.

GOBBA GOOL (24:28.802)
Yes, it's just right out the window.

GOBBA GOOL (24:38.017)
Uh-oh.

Jim Salmon (24:48.958)
It's like, you know, a good TV show that doesn't cause where there's characters in conflict that are technically on the same team, but like you just kind of see them like gradually shaping and irritating and frustrating each other. And there's this buildup and then eventually there's this big payoff, but it's very gradual. That's what I see between basically the entire West and the Byzantines because

Remember, back in the day, the Byzantines technically kind of initiated the First Crusade because they had called on Pope Urban for support. Now again, there were some other motives involved there too. The contradiction here is that Emperor Manuel does not want the Second Crusade to happen for a couple of reasons. One we kind of already mentioned, he had beef and he had been fighting with Roger of Sicily who was kind of this unhinged

GOBBA GOOL (25:25.413)
That's right.

Jim Salmon (25:46.465)
pain in the neck just right across the sea from him. He did not like that this would leave him more exposed if potential allies were going to be away at war. But one of the second ones that I think was more significant is that during the time after, so Alexios was the emperor during the first crusade. I think John was the emperor after that and then he fought, he succeeded him.

During that time, they had actually been really successful in applying military pressure to essentially reassert that the Principality of Antioch, which is one of the four Crusader states, belonged under Byzantine authority. So for a long time, for a couple of decades, they'd basically been pressuring Antioch to say, look, you guys technically respond to us, like you're...

Antioch is historically our territory and because they'd been kind of saving their tails in military battle, they were like, you guys should really be paying homage to us.

GOBBA GOOL (26:46.712)
Well, didn't I thought they knew the people that took Antioch remember they had their little council of who gets to keep it, but then they decided they decided that, OK, if Alexios comes in person, we give it to him.

Jim Salmon (26:55.029)
Yes.

Jim Salmon (27:01.468)
Right, but remember Alexios turned around before the siege because he thought that it was a lost cause

GOBBA GOOL (27:07.772)
Yeah, but I remember this happened after. Alexios never come and claim Antioch or did they just never, and they never gave it to him?

Jim Salmon (27:12.49)
I don't think so, no. Yeah, so remember there was that beef where the siege of Antioch was this grueling thing and the crusaders were expecting Byzantine to help them and they did not.

GOBBA GOOL (27:29.828)
Yeah, yeah, we said it was a Gandalf on his ride to, not Minas Tirith, to Helm's Deep, and then he just like turns around. Yeah. And then they had to dig up a relic to get everybody inspired and all energized. Yeah.

Jim Salmon (27:37.266)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly. And so I get...

Jim Salmon (27:45.541)
Exactly. So they felt like the Byzantines abandoned them at the siege of Antioch. So they were technically supposed to take that land and give it to the Byzantines, that was part of the agreement. But then when they were like, you were going to help us and then you bailed? No, this is ours now. So the Byzantines always kind of felt like they had been mistreated because the Crusaders had gone against their word, but the Crusaders felt like they'd been abandoned, which

There's merit to both sides.

GOBBA GOOL (28:16.284)
I mean, well, I don't know. I feel like the fact that Alexios turned around, I'm kind of like, yeah. Oh, it's like when little kids, you know how if a little kid has a friend over and little Johnny hasn't touched his fire truck in six months and then little Caleb comes over and wants to play with the fire truck and Johnny's suddenly like, that's mine. Yeah.

Jim Salmon (28:23.36)
Bad luck.

Jim Salmon (28:34.956)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (28:41.356)
Yeah, it's like you didn't want to do anything. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I think a lot of geopolitical warfare can be boiled down to children throwing tantrums. I think you can make that argument. I'm writing a book. I'm historian now. So again, the Byzantines really wanted Antioch back. Here's the problem.

GOBBA GOOL (28:45.63)
Yeah

GOBBA GOOL (28:56.422)
Wow, that's so deep.

Jim Salmon (29:11.064)
If the Crusaders in the second crusade are successful in providing support to all of the crusaders with their wounded wings up in Edessa, then that creates a problem for them because the Byzantines whole thing is, well, you guys kind of have to refer defer to us because we're the big army protecting you from all of the Muslims here. But if the crusaders can successfully bail them out, well, then they don't have a claim to stand on. And now.

they will, you know, they'll lose their claim to Antioch, which stinks. So Manuel has no interest in really supporting the Crusaders. He's not a big fan of what they're doing. One of the really interesting things is, and we talked about this last time, but it's worth repeating. When you let an army of tens of thousands of young, smelly, like warriors pass through your territory, it kind of stinks. Like it's rough. Like remember you have to usually...

You have to make provisions for them. Usually you're kind of expected to find to provide food for them. These are scraggly, undisciplined soldiers who are going to loot small villages. They're going to pick fights with your armies for no reasons. Like, like they were not excited about this whatsoever. So one thing, one very controversial thing that Emperor Manuel will do is he makes a truce with a dude named Massoud.

who was the Sultan of Anatolia, a Seljuk. And he basically says, hey, I know we don't like each other, but here's the thing. I've got these freaking Western dorks coming through my territory and I'm really afraid it's gonna go sideways. Could you just have my back in case things go left? And the crusaders find out about this and they're like, the Byzantines, bro. just, they'll, any pagan? Like they're just like.

morally bankrupt, terrible, how are you gonna side with the enemy like that? So it's just gasoline, gasoline on the fire constantly, it's so bad.

GOBBA GOOL (31:18.234)
That's a surprising turn of events to team up with a celljick.

Jim Salmon (31:22.657)
guess.

Just temporarily man, but yeah, they were like, the enemy of my enemy is my friend I guess. I don't know, some Sun Tzu type stuff.

GOBBA GOOL (31:33.658)
I mean, what's it like? That's what's so weird for the Byzantines because they're like, you're coming to like technically fight on. Well, I guess they the Byzantines must not think they're fighting on their behalf.

Jim Salmon (31:46.563)
they know they're not. They know they're not.

GOBBA GOOL (31:47.868)
So the Byzantines are basically like, look, Mr. Seljik, sir, if this goes south, we'll send for you, and then you can come kill all the Christians.

Jim Salmon (31:57.163)
Yes, because remember, all the allure of the Western Christians going to support Byzantium is false. And now there's an established state of Outremer, which largely used to be Byzantine territory. So there's no illusion that the Westerners are going to support Byzantium. They're going to support their own people.

GOBBA GOOL (32:20.848)
The western, the westerns are going to support their land claim. Wow.

Jim Salmon (32:25.768)
Exactly. And the stronger Outremer gets, the worse it is for Byzantium because they, yeah, they don't want the West to be strong in two different places. They want them to be reliant on them. yeah, when they find out, let's see, I've got a great quote from Asbridge here. When news of Manuel's pact with Massoud was greeted with horror, derision, and deep-seated mistrust, Godfrey

GOBBA GOOL (32:33.53)
Wow.

Right.

Jim Salmon (32:53.44)
Bishop of Langris, one of the crusades leading churchmen, even sought to incite a direct attack on Constantinople, a scheme which King Louis rejected. So he was like, let's just kill him. Let's kill him right now. Like they're clearly in bed with the enemy.

GOBBA GOOL (33:07.612)
They just sided with Satan. I kind of want to be Bishop in Constantinople. I would, man, I would have loved to been in that room with a translator, of course, and probably like a face mask full of potpourri. But outside of that, I would have loved to hear that conversation.

Jim Salmon (33:15.436)
It's like that sounds pretty sweet. I'm not gonna lie So yeah, hope

Jim Salmon (33:24.498)
Right, right.

Jim Salmon (33:28.768)
Yeah. Loved it. But again, this is that dreadful, foreshadowing that's happening. Cause you know, at this time they're like, you know, the idea of attacking Constantinople sounds so ridiculous, but we know that soon enough, it might become a little more appetizing. Yeah. So, the interesting thing is that.

GOBBA GOOL (33:49.237)
Ooh, maybe. Maybe it happens.

Jim Salmon (33:55.243)
Both armies are determined to follow in the footsteps of the first crusaders who didn't have lot of sailing opportunities because they didn't have, well they just didn't have those opportunities. So they plans to go and I'll even show the map here, gonna mark the clip once again. Video watchers, you guys got some jams. So their plan is to go essentially through the Byzantine territory, through Nicaea where they had one of their first victories back in the day.

and basically kind of scurry their way through the Sultanate of Rum and then get into the Crusader states that way. So that's kind of their plan. The Germans are ahead of the Franks and they have every reason to wait so that they can combine their forces. They do not wait for whatever reason. think Conrad was just feeling a little impatient and immediate disaster. When you look at the map, there is

exactly one stop into Seljuk territory where the line just ends because they get to one place and they fight the Seljuks and again the Sel- they have no experience fighting these Turkish dudes they're not used to the aggressive horseback high heavy archery kind of warfare and they just flip out as soon as they get there so they fight one battle and get and they're just like gosh this is

GOBBA GOOL (35:22.203)
And this is Conrad's guys?

Jim Salmon (35:24.28)
These are the Germans. Yeah, remember, the Germans weren't involved in the First Crusade, so they don't have that kind of experience like the Franks do. So they just... they...

GOBBA GOOL (35:28.764)
And the Seljuks are well versed in fighting Westerners now.

Jim Salmon (35:34.829)
That's right. Exactly. So the end, the Seljuks are ready for him basically, probably because they may have gotten advanced notice from, the Byzantine emperor, which may or may not have helped the Westerners, but, so yeah, it's absolute disaster. They're going to get surrounded. they lose a few thousand troops. Conrad gets injured. So they immediately high tail it back into Byzantine territory and they just kind of wait to lick their wounds. It's a bad time.

the French will really not fare that much better. They're going to arrive in Constantinople. They figure out, okay, let's not go through Turkish territory. Let's call an audible. So their plan is let's go down south into deeper into Asia Minor, into Anatolia, which is still Byzantine territory. And let's go as long as we can without engaging the Turks. And so they kind of...

know, head their way kind of a South East into that territory. And eventually they start running into skirmishes of resistance from the Seljuks. They do have some success fighting them off, but they're still just like, again, they're, not prepared for the type of resistance that they get. there's another horrible loss where.

Luis is almost like captured. had to literally climb up into a tree to avoid capture, which is an incredible visual to have. and they get to the coast. the coast of the Mediterranean, basically anticipating sailing. so Lewis decides, all right, we're going to sail the rest of the way. I'm going to take a portion of our surviving army. We're going to sail over into the crusader States.

GOBBA GOOL (36:55.196)
What?

Jim Salmon (37:18.726)
And but I'm not going to take everybody because sailings a lot. So I'm going leave you guys here and don't worry. You will have support from the Byzantines. No problem. And that support never comes. And the rest of the soldiers will either die of starvation on that coastline or will be killed by more Turkish soldiers.

GOBBA GOOL (37:39.484)
my gosh.

Jim Salmon (37:42.229)
So literally from the beginning, it's just a disaster. So the French will sail to Antioch. they'll basically, yeah, they'll just take the waterways for the rest of it. And they're able to kind of wait there and lick their wounds. The Germans, they actually hightail it all the way back to Constantinople from where they were taking refuge because not only does Conrad...

Sustained injuries during that first fight. He also gets really sick. So he now he needs to really take care of himself So a few months later he gets back on his feet. They decide they're not gonna travel by land He takes a very long Sea voyage and he sails to Acre which is in the the kingdom of Jerusalem And so yeah, they basically got into like two fights lost almost immediately

and then took a fraction of their armies, both Louis and Conrad having sustained personal injury, and just sailed to the Crusader states to regroup.

GOBBA GOOL (38:52.588)
It is this like the end of the second crusades

Jim Salmon (38:58.994)
Not quite, not quite. We'll get into this stuff next week, but what's essentially about to happen is the Council of Acre. So this is when the Crusader Kings will meet with the European Kings, Conrad and Louis, and they'll say, all right, what is our strategy? Because I believe one thing that's going to happen, and like I said, we'll get into this in more detail, is that Jocelyn, who was the Prince of Edessa when it fell,

tries to take it again and fails so bad and ticks off the Zengids so bad that the Zengids decide they're just going to slaughter all the Christians, even the resident ones. And so the problem at the Council of Acre is, well, we can't retake Edessa because there's nothing to retake. They literally slaughtered all of the Christians. And so then they're going to decide, well, let's take Damascus instead. And

GOBBA GOOL (39:41.847)
Jim Salmon (39:58.145)
We'll find out how that goes next week. That's on you, big dog. Yeah. All right. So we've got a little, you're guys thinking, no, we wrapping up already. We've actually got a little part two, which I think will give some context into another interesting thing. we're going to talk about the Templar Knights today. What do know about the Templar Knights? What do we know about the TKs?

GOBBA GOOL (40:00.575)
boy, that's my research? Alright, you got it.

GOBBA GOOL (40:16.984)
Wow. All I know is they get romanticized on TikTok. dude bros love them. And there's all the Templar imagery over the sound bits of the day is fault. Well, there's cool, hard, heavy music playing in the background.

Jim Salmon (40:24.96)
You

Jim Salmon (40:30.262)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (40:36.46)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (40:41.226)
Yeah, yeah, there that's kind of like the the when you think of a crusader with the white cloak and the red cross, that's basically the image of the Templar Knight.

GOBBA GOOL (40:52.198)
So memes aside, from my understanding, the generous interpretation of them is they were kind of these chivalrous guys who existed to help protect pilgrims so they could get to the Holy Land.

Jim Salmon (40:55.884)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (41:13.472)
Yeah, yeah, it's really interesting how they start. then, I don't know, I mean, I'll probably skim through the latter like century of their history, because it gets kind of muddy. yeah, so essentially what happens is, you know, the first crusade, as we know, was successful, but the pilgrims, because remember, a big part of the crusades, it was about making for safe pilgrimages. People wanted to travel on foot.

to the holy sites and not be pestered. And that was still happening even after the crusade just by mobs of bandits and stuff like that. I just imagined that just just shooting spitballs at him and stuff. It's like, stop it, stop it. Yeah, no, was pretty bad. It was bad.

GOBBA GOOL (41:51.197)
Pestern is such a mild word for like robbed and murdered and sold into slavery. You knock it off, you silly little goobers. You knock that off. Yeah. Yeah.

Jim Salmon (42:09.792)
And so in 1119 This this French knight by the name of Hugh of Payne's I'm sure it's like pa or something like that, but I can't pronounce French words but good old Hugh he

gathers a bunch of this. This reminds me of like the scene in the movie when like the guy who has like special ops Air Force experience or army experience, but he's like his forties and he's like, yeah, let's band together. Let's get that little girl back. Like he's basically getting together with his buddies and he's like, you know what? We're going to make a little mob, a little like small town militia. And our whole goal is going to be to protect Christian pilgrims on their way to the Holy land. That's the whole thing. And, and that is

You know, I think commendable there. it was very noble. was, it was rooted in self-defense in preserving the value of the pilgrimage and maintaining the holiness of these sites. was real, real straightforward. what's interesting is that it becomes a religious order. I think a big part, so, so there's like a lot of politics behind this, which got really interesting, but

GOBBA GOOL (42:57.037)
Noble enough.

Jim Salmon (43:23.466)
Yeah, essentially there are people who are like, my gosh, this is perfect. Like this is exactly what we're looking for. We're looking for like, you know, some strong, tough dudes who are taking up a religious responsibility in their military action. And so this was really groundbreaking because traditionally, well, like, I mean, we talked about the Cistercian order and the Benedictine order when we talked about Bernard a couple of weeks ago. Monks?

did not fight. Monks did not join the military. Monks certainly did not shed blood. Like their responsibility was, you know, simple manual labor. It was praying. It was the offices. It was things like that. It was not violence. Yeah, like scholarly stuff. Yeah, was, was meant to be, it was a, it was very mundane, but suddenly there was this idea of, well, what if

GOBBA GOOL (44:08.222)
Copying books? Yeah. Yeah.

Jim Salmon (44:21.226)
what if these people actually were their own religious order? And so Hugh is going to do a lot of kind of politicking and he's going to get some good people behind him. course, Bernard, surprisingly, maybe not so surprisingly, is going to get involved in this. And there's a really interesting set of quotes I'm going to read from that. What I think is interesting, well, here, I'll read a couple of lines that I found first.

So this is the Templar society. So once they became part of the Templar community, members joined one of five classes stated in the original rule. Servants, Squires, Chaplains, Knights, and Bailiffs. There are also two prominent types of membership noted in the rule, a permanent membership and a temporary membership. One might assume that major differences existed between these types of membership, but that was not

case. The only major distinctions between them concerns what transpires after death of each type of member. For example, after death, temporary members were to receive 30 Lord's prayers for their souls and the surviving brothers were to feed a poor person for seven days. By comparison, a full-fledged member was to receive 100 Lord's prayers continually for seven days while the brothers will feed a poor person for 40 days.

GOBBA GOOL (45:42.362)
What?

Jim Salmon (45:45.58)
They took on Temporary members because it was a military service. And I think, I know, I know. It's, it's...

GOBBA GOOL (45:49.126)
Dude, I... Look, man, you and I, live in the past. We're historians. We're all about... The ancients weren't stupid.

I don't think they were for the record. I don't think they were it's like we joked about with the the calendar people they like They like figured out with like a quill and ink and you know bad paper They like figured out the planets rotations And then and then in that afternoon in their diary. They're like I fear a dragon might ascend over the hill

Jim Salmon (46:02.1)
It's just... They were not. It's just...

Jim Salmon (46:08.586)
It's the water they swim in, bro.

Jim Salmon (46:18.196)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (46:24.844)
Exactly, exactly. So yeah, it's the water that they're swimming in. There was a Latin rule. So it's called the Latin rule. just like the Benedict rule, which is 72 clauses by which each night of, or each Templar night was to live. And it's very interesting. It talks about, you know, if you're a night, how do you observe the feast days? What do you eat? I will say one thing that I find

very interesting and this is I want to be generous I want to be kind of nuanced here one thing I find very interesting and I would say solid about the Templar Knights is that their goal was to redeem knighthood because as we talked about before Knights during this time specifically were like well-connected thugs who

were powerful and violent and they would loot and mob and abuse women and they were awful.

GOBBA GOOL (47:27.27)
So the Knights Templar comes, it makes sense why they became a religious order then. Because if they're like, no, remember, we got the just war theory backing everything. So they're like, all right, hey, we got Christ on our side. We're fighting for Christ. I really do actually admire them and the initial outset.

Jim Salmon (47:31.89)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Jim Salmon (47:36.383)
Exactly.

Jim Salmon (47:41.737)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (47:48.414)
Right, right, yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (47:49.853)
Because it sounds like they knew that there was a problem. And they were like, this actually is not how knights fighting for Jesus are supposed to fight. What are some of the 72? What are some of the little 72 codes they had? Is code the right word?

Jim Salmon (47:57.847)
Sure, And so when you look at, what's that?

Jim Salmon (48:06.056)
there you could probably pull them up. It's just the. A clause probably, but they're they're interesting and like this is where I think I'm most fascinated by them because remember when you think of the things that Knights were known for, it's things like, well, they were very wealthy and they would flaunt their wealth. So one of the clauses of the Latin rule is you're not allowed to wear like flashy clothing.

Or like if you want to put adornments on your horse, they have to be very basic. You can't make your horse look really classy. Yeah, totally. Or, you know, there were rules of like most monks of the Benedict order were actually vegetarians. They were to abstain from meats altogether. But in the Latin rule of the Templar Knights, they were to eat meat three times a week, which probably more practical because you want your knights to be

GOBBA GOOL (48:38.754)
That's scriptural. That's scriptural.

Jim Salmon (49:04.32)
big and strong and get their protein and all that stuff. One of the ones I found really interesting was they were not, I think the 71st clause is like, they're not to gaze at women. Like you're not allowed to like look at them very long. And one of them is you're literally not allowed to kiss women, even your mother. which again, when nights have a horrible reputation of being.

GOBBA GOOL (49:17.754)
That's great.

Jim Salmon (49:30.024)
abusive or know, philanderers like they're like, nope, you don't get to do that anymore. You're gonna walk a chased life.

GOBBA GOOL (49:36.334)
Yeah, no, mean, they, yeah, they've they supervalued Chastity back then. So, no, day. Are we are we applauding something from the Crusades?

Jim Salmon (49:42.304)
Definitely. Yeah.

Jim Salmon (49:49.002)
I think we're getting there, man. I think we're getting there.

GOBBA GOOL (49:50.554)
This is great. Dude, it's surprising how difficult it is to find this list on the internet.

Jim Salmon (49:59.329)
Yeah, I found a document that was like...

GOBBA GOOL (50:01.468)
Oh, hey, found one. It's all 72 rules, I think.

Jim Salmon (50:04.33)
Okay.

Jim Salmon (50:09.704)
Okay, I found one that looked like it was a relatively new translation. Like it seems like it hadn't been translated for a while, which is very curious to me. Here, while you skim through that, I'll read another line I have. The rule of the order was modeled after the Benedictine rule, especially as understood and implemented by the Cistercians. Of course, that was the order that...

GOBBA GOOL (50:17.368)
Yeah. OK.

Jim Salmon (50:32.288)
Bernard helps to establish, The Knights Templar swore an oath of poverty, chastity, and obedience, and renounced the world just as the Cistercians and other monks did. Like the monks, the Templars heard the Divine Office during each of the canonical hours of the day and were expected to honor the fasts and vigils of the monastic calendar. They were frequently found in prayer and expressed particular veneration to the Virgin Mary. They were not allowed to gamble, swear, or become drunk, and were required to live in community.

sleeping in a common dormitory and eating meals together. They were not, however, strictly cloistered, as were the monks, nor were they expected to perform devotional reading, as most Templars were uneducated and unable to read Latin. The Knight's primary duty was to fight.

GOBBA GOOL (51:18.972)
Yeah, my skimming is basically saying you are going to participate in, I found one that's very interesting. It was about participating in, like when you're in Jerusalem, you're going to do all the services that they do over there. Yeah, mean, just kind of.

Jim Salmon (51:24.62)
It's lot of food stuff.

Jim Salmon (51:39.766)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (51:43.641)
It really is just like monk stuff without but with also with swords. Yeah, eating, eating in silence and humility. Those sorts of things, hearing scripture at meals. Yeah, good for them. OK.

Jim Salmon (51:49.61)
Yeah, pretty much. Pretty much.

Jim Salmon (51:56.566)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (52:00.083)
The history of the Templar Knights, I'm going to skim through super fast. It's really interesting. So basically they get really involved in the Crusades, as you would imagine, especially with the proximity to the, to the Holy land. because they're a religious order, they are open to receiving large donations. And as we kind of talked about, like the reason the Cistercian order,

established itself was because they believed the Benedictines had gotten corrupt. And the reason that these monastic groups get corrupted over time, and this happens all the time in the medieval era, is that they start funneling money, they start hoarding money, and then they become so wealthy that they lose all of the basics of what their monastic rule is about. And so

GOBBA GOOL (52:51.642)
Mmm.

Jim Salmon (52:54.538)
When this happens, so when that happens with the Benedictines, you get a bunch of, you know, fat penny counting monks who don't know Genesis from Exodus. When it happens with the Templar Knights, you get basically an independent nation of wealthy, violent dudes who only give, who only pay homage to the Pope and not to any national body, which is very problematic. So they become like a, like a

weird financial banking system for a while. And then like really abruptly, they just get accused of being heretics and they just get like dissolved and a bunch of Templar Knights get martyred and killed and burned at the stake by the magistrate. Yeah, yeah. It's very interesting. But I think...

GOBBA GOOL (53:40.408)
Really?

GOBBA GOOL (53:44.797)
Do you think there's any merit to the idea that they were over there and actually being good guys and getting in the way of how things were done over there? Like, OK. You can't commit war crimes when the holy Knights Templar is there saying, we don't do that. Like, do you think maybe that's what was happening?

Jim Salmon (53:56.395)
What do mean?

Jim Salmon (54:07.5)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (54:11.902)
I think they were, I think they were, one of the big issues was, spoiler alert, when Jerusalem falls back to the Muslims in the later 13th century, there are

rivals of the Templars who are basically like, why do they even exist anymore? There is no Holy Land. They have no role. They have no responsibility. And so the Templar Knights still serve military functions. But again, because they're powerful, well-trained and well-funded, I think they just became kind of a threat. And I think that there was a political threat that was happening.

GOBBA GOOL (54:48.09)
So, okay, so the timeline, they dissolve way later.

Jim Salmon (54:53.844)
Yeah, they're around for like 200 years.

GOBBA GOOL (54:55.31)
Okay, so, so the early guy, yeah, but they bet you're saying that they basically evolved into the Pope's private, to well trained. Yeah, well trained and well equipped fight. Yeah, fighting force. Okay.

Jim Salmon (55:04.01)
I think they became kind of a mercenary gang. Yeah, I think so. I think you could argue that. Yes.

I'll read two more quotes because I think they're really interesting and then we'll land the plane. This is from Christopher Tyerman, one of my favorite historians on the Crusades. He says, The clear association of the Templars with the tradition of the First Crusade found reinforcement in their enjoyment of full remission of sins for fighting and the adoption of the Red Cross on their white robes, showing them unmistakably as Knights of Christ. However, the concept of members of a religious order

fortified by the offices of the church, riding out to shed blood, could still jar, especially as other religious, such as monks, were actively discouraged from participation in holy wars. To some observers, not otherwise hostile to holy war, the vocational combination of a knight and a monk appeared monstrous. Guigo, abbot of the austere Grande Chartreuse,

expressed anxiety at the dangers inherent in this fusion of the spiritual and profane. Quote, it is useless attacking external enemies if we do not first conquer those within ourselves. We should first purge our souls of vices, then the lands from the barbarians.

GOBBA GOOL (56:25.488)
Boo, you hypocrites. Boo.

Jim Salmon (56:30.75)
So it's interesting. He's basically like, think it's kind of weird that monks who traditionally were never supposed to fight or shed blood are now doing this. And I think that is a reasonable tension. Now the issue, and this is kind of where Bernard, I would say, really solidifies his stance is he writes this polemic, essentially say, I forget what it's called, but it's essentially like he helps to write the Latin rule.

He was very supportive of the Templar Knights becoming a religious order. And so that document that I sent you, Taylor, which is in praise of the new knighthood, there's a quote which says, the Knights of Christ may safely fight the battles of their Lord, fearing neither sin if they smite the enemy nor danger at their own death, since to inflict death or to die for Christ is no sin, but rather an abundant claim to glory. When he kills a malefactor,

GOBBA GOOL (57:02.757)
Right.

Jim Salmon (57:29.684)
It is not a homicide, but if I may so put it, a malicide. Where he's essentially making this argument that if you kill an evil person for a good reason, you're not actually killing a person, you're killing evil itself. And this is just a further justification of like, killing pagans is not bad. Killing heretics is not bad if you're doing it to preserve the church and what is godly. And that's where...

GOBBA GOOL (57:44.902)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (57:59.277)
I think we get into possible jihadi territory, as we said earlier.

GOBBA GOOL (58:02.96)
You know though, it... If you are able to remove all emotional reaction and you just firmly plant yourself, like this kind of makes sense, because they don't have a good soteriology. They don't... Apparently they... Yeah, they don't have priesthood of all believers, like we do.

Jim Salmon (58:17.708)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (58:26.273)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (58:26.776)
in their minds because if they're saying like no monks aren't supposed to fight that's sacrilegious essentially is what they were saying. Yeah they yeah exactly exactly so they're like okay the norm the normies can go out and kill but like you're a monk you're not supposed to do that go copy your books and eat stale bread.

Jim Salmon (58:33.674)
Yes. Which is wild. It's like, so normal people can fight? yeah.

Jim Salmon (58:45.37)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (58:48.896)
Yeah, it does kind of expose that, if it's too vulgar for a monk to do, then why should we ask, like, the less spiritually devout people to do it?

GOBBA GOOL (58:57.924)
Yes. Yes, I really, really want to read the top of this letter. It's so funny. So this is Bernard, where John had that quote right now. This is the top of that letter. He says, if I'm not mistaken, my dear Hugh, you have asked me not once or twice, but three times to write a few words of exhortation for you and your comrades. You say that if I am not permitted to wield the lance, at least I might direct my pen against the tyrannical foe.

Jim Salmon (59:06.22)
Do it.

GOBBA GOOL (59:27.46)
and that this moral rather than material support of mine will be of no small help to you. I put you off for quite some time, not that I disdain your request, but rather lest I be blamed for taking it lightly and hastily. I feared I might botch a task which could be better done by a more qualified hand and which would perhaps remain because of me just as necessary and all the more difficult. What a way to be like I left you on read forever.

Jim Salmon (59:37.9)
you

GOBBA GOOL (59:59.545)
I dare not write too hastily lest I ruin it. Wow, that guy's so- that guy's so good with words.

Jim Salmon (59:59.865)
my gosh.

Jim Salmon (01:00:03.82)
Yeah, basically like quit with the double texts.

He is. I will say, and this is the last thing I'll say and then we can close out, there might be some historical bias against Bernard. And the reason I say that is because I think it was Thomas Asbridge that I was reading. I don't think I'll be able to find it right now. It made me laugh so hard when I read it. But it was basically like Bernard himself was a man of very poor constitution and had such difficulty with

maintaining his stomach issues that they had to dig a trench near the pew that he sat in church so that he could vacate his bowels at any moment.

GOBBA GOOL (01:00:48.7)
That sounds made up. That sounds made up by his opponents. Oh, Tommy, oh my gosh. Oh, Bernie's gonna poop himself. That sounds made up by opponents.

Jim Salmon (01:00:54.208)
Like I just...

Jim Salmon (01:01:01.402)
I kind of hope it is, but I also hope it isn't at the same time. Not because I want this guy to go through all the... It sounds awful. That sounds terrible. But it just made me laugh really hard. Man. Alright. Well... Thank you, sir. Any closing thoughts for our good listeners?

GOBBA GOOL (01:01:14.67)
Yeah.

Well, good research, good job.

GOBBA GOOL (01:01:24.188)
I mean, it just seems like these guys were not being consistent in what they were thinking through. But then again, I don't know if they really had the same tools that we do, we have available to us. Because it makes, we would never divide like a monk from us.

Jim Salmon (01:01:43.936)
Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.

GOBBA GOOL (01:01:44.75)
Yeah, we wouldn't think that like whatever rules God has for them are different than for us. So, I don't know.

Jim Salmon (01:01:51.347)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I, I do think, I think that one of the hardest things about the reality of war and, just the reality of, living in a broken condition, like, cause, cause I, you know, I think to myself, like, what if I have to defend my wife from some, some awful malicious event? Like, you know, we want to be realistic. We want to be honest with ourselves. Like I...

I think that the tension of it is realizing that even if I were put in a position where I had to cause harm to another person or, or, you know, Lord forbid shed someone else's blood. Like we never get off Scott free for that. Like not to say that it's sin, that it's a mortal sin that's going to carry on and all that stuff. But it's like, if we can't carry that tension of.

this person was made in the image of God, was dearly loved by God, even if they were a pagan, evil, awful person. shedding their blood, even in necessity, is not something that God was pleased in, because God doesn't delight in the death of the evildoers. Like, I think if we lose that tension, then it really can become easy to just say,

death to the heretic, death to the evildoers, and become a violent religion.

GOBBA GOOL (01:03:22.618)
Yeah, well, it's like I heard a story about a Navy SEAL guy. He was retired, but somebody pulled a gun on him in the parking lot, and the SEAL was strapped. Those guys always carry. And the SEAL never took his gun out and actually disarmed the guy. then

Jim Salmon (01:03:37.628)
Yeah

Jim Salmon (01:03:43.372)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (01:03:44.349)
So he like risked his life a little bit more to do that, to like not have to kill that guy. And the cops were like, when they're interviewing, the cops are like, why didn't you just send him to Jesus? And the seal was like, I didn't need to. He's like, I had an opportunity to not kill him. And so this is somebody telling the story who he's probably killed.

Jim Salmon (01:03:50.774)
Sure.

Jim Salmon (01:03:59.656)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Jim Salmon (01:04:07.314)
Exactly.

GOBBA GOOL (01:04:13.454)
quite a few people. And so he's not jumping at the thought or at the chance to take another life, you know?

Jim Salmon (01:04:15.222)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (01:04:21.31)
Right. It's like that necessary reverence for life is still so valuable. And I think the possibility of what we do when we lose that is then we start to dehumanize and we say, because the person is evil, then I'm actually doing the world a favor in removing them. But the problem is that's a slippery slope that leads to...

GOBBA GOOL (01:04:26.256)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (01:04:44.778)
doing some pretty awful things. Cause if you start to say, well, I'm just going to remove people who cause a net negative to the world. and who get in the way of the church. Yeah, exactly. That sounds terrifying, you know?

GOBBA GOOL (01:04:46.481)
Right.

GOBBA GOOL (01:04:53.068)
useless eaters. Yes. No. it's a super, it boils, it gets to like utilitarian. Yeah, it's not. Yeah, yeah, yeah, No, no, no, it's very bad. It's much better to be on the safe and a Baptist pacifist side, which I'm not, but I respect him. I respect him.

Jim Salmon (01:05:02.076)
Exactly.

Jim Salmon (01:05:08.748)
That's right.

Yeah. You know, I was, I was reading through, this list of penitential documents. And again, this is a Catholic lingo thing that we're not going to fully jive with, but it essentially said like, it would set pen, what is it? Penitential expectations for people coming back from war. And

I think it was I forget the name of the battle, but it was when William when William the conqueror conquered England They essentially said all right for all the soldiers returning home And this was from the victorious side for all the way the soldiers returning home for every man that you know You've killed you have to serve a year of penance, which means during fasting days. You can only have bread and water It means you can't receive communion. It means that you know, it means a certain number of things for your like status, but

And it's like, you injured a man and you're not sure if you killed him, that's 40 days of penance. And like, I get it.

GOBBA GOOL (01:06:10.266)
Wow, that's not very, that's not very Augustan of them.

Jim Salmon (01:06:14.664)
Right. It's very like, we take this seriously because even if it was just the shedding of blood is still significant. And, and yeah, I just think like, we can't lose that. We can't lose the sense of like, even an evil person is still a person and even an evil scumbag human being is still sometimes, unfortunately, made in the image of God and, carrying his, carrying his, his blessed, blessed, essence in them. So.

GOBBA GOOL (01:06:28.923)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (01:06:38.907)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (01:06:45.472)
Yeah. Well, listeners, I want to leave you with one final word. In physical terms, Bernard was a wreck forced to have an open latrine dug next to his pew in church so that he could relieve the symptoms of an appalling chronic intestinal affliction.

GOBBA GOOL (01:06:46.15)
Good thoughts.

GOBBA GOOL (01:07:03.91)
There's no way that's real. That's just haters. my gosh.

Jim Salmon (01:07:10.408)
Alright, thank you guys. We love you. Have a wonderful week. We'll see you next time.

GOBBA GOOL (01:07:13.937)
Bye bye!