135. Saint Jerome and the Legacy of the Latin Vulgate

Let's take it back old school for a minute. 

In the 4th century, the church was moving a little differently. In the east, Greek was still the common language, and they were loving the easy access to the earliest biblical texts. 

The Latin speakers had a problem though: there were few Latin translations of the Bible, and the ones that existed were pretty lousy. 

Enter Jerome. The hot-headed, extra caliente church father with a penchant for languages. Here to change the world with the translation that would require decades of labor. The Latin Vulgate.

Also, John and Taylor talk about whether Taylor could work on a crab boat. I think he could off of looks alone, tbh. 

Transcript

Jim Salmon (00:00.32)
What's good, Chump Nation? It's your boy, John Simon, aka Jim Salmon. We're back with another church history for Chumps Nugget. And we got Taylor Treadway in the booth ready to spit a hot sixteen for you guys. Taylor Treadway, are you ready? No, no, please don't, please don't. Was that good? Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (00:15.048)
No. man. Dude, that I won't. That was good. I did think I was like, man, he's gonna I could not freestyle sixteen off the top. Yeah.

Jim Salmon (00:26.894)
That's a long time to freestyle. Yeah, yeah. Did I just had to channel back when I was a a radio DJ back in the Bronx in in two thousand seven. So just had a little throwback to my old my old love, my old career. That really what got me started in podcasting.

GOBBA GOOL (00:40.128)
Is that Is that what we're gonna do now? Just make up our backstories?

Jim Salmon (00:47.83)
Just lie about stuff. I guess so. I mean I'm not lying, man. You know, I used to be this was this was right when I this is right after I finished my ra my rodeo career. I went from rodeo to radio. That's actually the title of my autobiography. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (00:54.216)
Mm.

GOBBA GOOL (01:04.583)
Rodeo to radio. Wow. I'm not even creative enough to lie about anything. I in my mind I'm like I worked on a on a fishing vessel.

Jim Salmon (01:15.102)
Ooh like like like yeah, you dude, you could be like I was in the last season of Deadliest Catch.

GOBBA GOOL (01:16.32)
I was on a season d yeah, that's right. Yeah, I was they cut it though, they didn't air it.

Jim Salmon (01:23.498)
Right. Or like you were there, you just never got any airtime.

GOBBA GOOL (01:26.996)
Yeah, they said I was too good looking for camera. They said I was yeah.

Jim Salmon (01:29.806)
That's right. You look like you could have worked on a on a on a big old boat.

GOBBA GOOL (01:34.88)
Is that a compliment?

Jim Salmon (01:38.1)
It's you're a tattooed, bearded, kinda like rough looking guy.

GOBBA GOOL (01:41.459)
Yeah. Dude, I I went to a conference down in San Diego the other day. Shout out San Diego. And I walked in and I was like, Hey, yeah, I'm with Gateway, you know, where's my table doing my thing? And she goes, my gosh, it's over here. And she goes, So where are you from? And I was like, I'm from the inland empire. And she just goes, You look like you're from the inland empire.

Jim Salmon (01:48.961)
Shout out.

Jim Salmon (02:07.214)
What does that mean? Hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (02:08.744)
I know exactly what it means. It's the vibe. It's the dressing in a lot of black. It's the beard. It's the tattoos. It's like I don't know. I I'm I'm I guess I'm fine with it. I just thought it was I'm typecast and I'm not even I'm not even like really from the Inland Empire. I would say my style adapted slightly from Tucson Taylor.

Jim Salmon (02:16.972)
I don't like that. I don't like that.

Jim Salmon (02:29.922)
Yeah, yeah, you've got some grungy desert vibes for sure. For sure. gosh. Wow. So you really you really just you went to you you you left town to reinvent yourself in just a a perfect copy and paste replica of of Tucson in California. Just more expensive out there. Closer to the ocean though.

GOBBA GOOL (02:33.436)
Well that has to do that's the inland empire.

GOBBA GOOL (02:45.76)
Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah, dog.

GOBBA GOOL (02:52.146)
I wear less Hawaiian shirts than I do than I did in Tucson.

Jim Salmon (02:56.098)
Hm, so you're changing a little bit. Evolving. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (02:58.13)
I am. I I wear a lot of black now. But this isn't what's Taylor wearing. This isn't what's Taylor wearing for chumps. This is let's talk about that picture Taylor sent you a half hour ago that you were not impressed with. You guys remember a few episodes back, John Simon was insulting my vert ability. So I sent you

Jim Salmon (03:06.136)
For chumps.

Jim Salmon (03:19.936)
Right. And then you sent me a picture of you doing a a a a a squat jump on a sh what a shoebox for toddlers.

GOBBA GOOL (03:27.934)
That was clearly like that box was high.

Jim Salmon (03:33.561)
This is a shoebox for ants out here. Yeah, I was it was it was a solid like niner. You know? Tenner maybe. 20's crazy. Twenty's a lot. Did you meet No no, I think you're saying that is three six inch subs, dog? I don't think so. I don't know.

GOBBA GOOL (03:37.128)
Nah, dude. I got a solid. I got no, this is like twenty I got like twenty inches off the ground, dawg.

I think I did it.

GOBBA GOOL (03:56.231)
I think so. I think I I think it is. Look at it. You know what? Put it up. Put it up right now for the video podcast. I don't care. No, you're Jamie. Go in post, add the picture. I want it on the screen right now.

Jim Salmon (03:59.619)
We measure we measure things in subs out here. Jamie, Jamie, can we grab that? Yeah.

you want you want me to all right, all right. I'll put a little clip for myself. I'm gonna add it. Yeah. I love how much we're eating for all these video video fam. We we're putting up maps and pictures of relics. I'm not sure if we have anything for today, but we'll just have this picture of Taylor, you know, jumping jumping on a

GOBBA GOOL (04:13.714)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (04:20.072)
I know, dude.

GOBBA GOOL (04:26.48)
No, and then just like switch switch to like a like a like an iconography of Jerome. Yeah.

Jim Salmon (04:31.562)
Yeah, that's that's what we'll do. I will say, someone in the comment section had a really good idea for us a couple of weeks ago. They said, and this this I think was it because we we've been talking about trying to get healthier. I I've worked out a few times this week. I'm feeling pretty good. what if we did the Templar, the Knights of the Templar diet?

GOBBA GOOL (04:55.412)
Yeah, where we only ate meat a few times a week.

Jim Salmon (04:57.878)
Yeah, you can only eat meat three times a week. I think there's twice a week that you or hold on, like Friday's a fast day, so you have to abstain from from like meat and cheese and dairy. two two meals per day. I mean, it's made up, so we can basically do whatever we we we can be a little flexible with it.

GOBBA GOOL (05:21.564)
Why don't we look it up and then we'll see if we wanna commit to it.

Jim Salmon (05:28.034)
Why don't we try it and then we can like try it for a month and then we can do a whole chump talk about how we feel having eaten that way. People people care about what we eat, man. People care.

GOBBA GOOL (05:37.8)
tell you what, I'll do it. I'll do it during our third crusade series. Why don't we do it for the whole and we'll invite everybody to join us? Yeah. But

Jim Salmon (05:41.6)
Okay.

That'd be fun. Yeah. And then we can have like a little a little like weigh in.

GOBBA GOOL (05:48.988)
I like that. I'm definitely though going to Disney World in a few weeks and I will not be participating in that diet.

Jim Salmon (05:57.347)
Wow. Okay.

GOBBA GOOL (06:00.17)
That's what I'm saying. We'll start it for the th when we get back to the Crusades, we'll go back into it and we'll get everybody that wants to join us. No, no, here's here's actually actually. No, actually, I'm not. I I'm gonna be I'm still actually gonna try to do some semblance of calorie counting. And no, I don't mean be like, I counted all 4,400 calories. Yeah. No, no, no, no.

Jim Salmon (06:04.278)
Okay. See that's not fair though, 'cause you're you're gonna s you're gonna gain like twelve pounds when you go to you can go to Disney World. You're stockpiling right now.

Jim Salmon (06:20.152)
Hmm, okay.

Four thousand counting complete.

GOBBA GOOL (06:28.264)
No, I can't, I can't. I know I know myself. Dude, I don't know. I don't know where that guy's been, but I'm a little worried. He's he's been gone

Jim Salmon (06:32.418)
That gout's gonna sneak up on you, bro, if you're not careful.

he usually shows up when you least expect him, so I don't know, I'd be worried.

GOBBA GOOL (06:41.767)
I know.

I'm a little worried.

Jim Salmon (06:46.326)
Yeah. Yeah. But that was a cool photo. So you've been working out?

GOBBA GOOL (06:47.614)
Anyway, we went to the gym for the first time tonight. So I don't want to s well that was for you to Yeah. Well and did you how's your little kettlebell thing?

Jim Salmon (06:53.954)
okay, all right. Already taking gym photos.

that's good. That's good. Yeah. I love it. Dude, kettlebells are are are next level. I like it a lot. Here's the thing. I I kinda hate the gym. I don't know what it is. well I know a few things that it is. But I I don't really like the gym very much. I I don't really like

GOBBA GOOL (07:10.062)
Scared.

Jim Salmon (07:19.66)
Just just the environment. So I like the idea of having a few things that I can just do at home. I've got some kettlebells, got some dumbbells, got a little yoga mat, just put it on. You like a little walking pad. Like I'd rather do that for thirty, forty five minutes and have to go to the gym, have to fight a, you know, fifteen year old influencer over a over a weight bench. Like that just doesn't sound doesn't sound appealing to me. So that's where I'm at. Yeah. Mm.

GOBBA GOOL (07:27.582)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (07:46.588)
I I get that. The trick is to go to the gym when the fifteen year olds aren't there.

Jim Salmon (07:51.51)
It's the summer. They're there all the time now.

GOBBA GOOL (07:54.246)
I don't know, nobody was there on Sunday afternoon.

Jim Salmon (07:57.228)
that's fair. All at church probably.

GOBBA GOOL (08:00.228)
Yeah. Yep. Mm their their their hip Sunday afternoon service.

Jim Salmon (08:06.554)
That's right. Who who doesn't love a nice two PM service? man. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (08:10.398)
Yeah. But yeah, good job. Good job.

Jim Salmon (08:15.426)
We should honestly do may maybe this is I I don't know. I don't want to keep filling up our schedule for Chump Talk because we also really want people to actually executive produce our Chump Talk episodes. Links in the bio. You can sponsor it for pennies on the dollar, I would say, as far as entertainment value. but did you see that article that came out that was like,

Bas so there there's been a lot of articles coming out debunking like the myth of the Gen Z revival happening right now. That like there was one study that came out of England that was kinda skewed and then everyone took that and was like, my gosh, Gen Z is like going back to church and this is a huge big thing and then there was like a lull and people were like, wait a second, that's actually not what's happening here.

GOBBA GOOL (08:46.506)
Mm.

GOBBA GOOL (08:50.144)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (09:02.534)
I did not see that, but that would be a great that would be a great Yeah, we'll do it. Unless somebody comes along and sponsors a chump talk.

Jim Salmon (09:05.304)
That'd be something worth talking about. Yeah, that'd be fun. We'll see. Then we'll do anything and we'll talk about unicorns versus you know, dragons and we'll talk about fantasy l really whatever you guys want, you know. You say jump, we say how high. But first we say how much, you know.

GOBBA GOOL (09:23.4)
And Taylor says I can and I and Taylor says I can probably only get about twenty inches off the ground.

Jim Salmon (09:28.598)
That's right. Not high is the answer to that question. Not high. All right. Well, should we jump into our episode for today?

GOBBA GOOL (09:37.485)
I I'm excited to go back to the golden era.

Jim Salmon (09:41.058)
Yeah, dude, we've been you know, just choking in the fumes of the medieval era for so long.

GOBBA GOOL (09:47.388)
Yeah, literally the metaphorical and literal dark ages.

Jim Salmon (09:52.609)
Yeah, yeah, you know, that's that that is that is true. And we spent so long and it was so nice just kind of walking through the beauty of the early church. And also, you know, we of course embellish a little bit. Like I I know the the early church certainly had its fair share of idolatry and lots of heresies and and lots of janky things. You they're they're they're planting the seeds, for good and for bad.

GOBBA GOOL (10:16.916)
Yeah, but they kicked out the heretics.

Jim Salmon (10:19.65)
Most of the time. Well, I mean, this this is what okay, so we're talking about Saint Jerome today. And I'm very I'm very excited about Saint Jerome because I remember we d we did our whole series on big dudes from the early church, and then I thought, Why did we never do Jerome? And then I pulled him up today and started reading and I like, that's why. That's why we never did Jerome. 'Cause

GOBBA GOOL (10:39.09)
I also think you and I have developed in our historiography significantly in the last year. So w if if we did that patristic series again, I think we probably would have done Saint Jerome.

Jim Salmon (10:45.356)
Uhhuh.

Jim Salmon (10:50.348)
That is very true. That is very true. And he is, you know, one of the four doctors of the of the Latin church up there with shoot or actually hold on. No, he's one of the four great Latin fathers. I don't think he's a doctor of the church. I might have to check that though. but he's up there with Augustine, Gregory, and Ambrose, I believe. I was like, why did I even bring it up if I didn't know? All right, but here's my cold open. Let's talk, let's talk about Jerome. Now

GOBBA GOOL (11:14.218)
wow.

Jim Salmon (11:20.296)
Everybody in the world loves a buzzer beater. Being able to pull off that moment of elevated triumph right in the last moment before things would have fallen into catastrophe. Everybody loves a buzzer beater. On August 24th, the year of our Lord 410, the clock hit zero on the city of Rome, as it was finally after.

The echoes and the foreshadowings of violence and combat for that had gone on for decades. It was finally sacked by the Goths, and thousands are killed, and even many more are displaced or even enslaved. Now, Saint Jerome

Had a very interesting task to do. He was tasked with translating the Latin Vulgate, which would give the Western Church a common biblical translation for over a thousand years. If Jerome was still in Rome at the time of this sacking, it makes me wonder just how different the course of church history would have really been.

But he was not in Rome. And there's a there's a lot of random, seemingly random incidents that that will provide to that. But Jerome is actually gonna be hanging out in Palestine, in Bethlehem, in his little monastery with his pals, and he's gonna complete the Latin Vulgate, and he's going to contribute tremendously to the scope of church history. So let's talk about it. Jerome is an interesting guy, and I think

He is a dude who doesn't get a lot of love from us Protestants. Speaking of which, we've gotten a lot of comments meaningfully that I love from Catholics about our relics conversation last week, who are basically like, Great episode, guys. You guys are looking handsome, well done, your voices sound clear, really good stuff. Also, we think you should do more reading about the Shroud of Turin.

Jim Salmon (13:27.744)
Reasonable responses. Reasonable responses. We all know we're always gonna be presenting our traditions here, but the interesting thing about tr about Jerome is that he really represents a lot of views that we look back on as being specifically Catholic. Even when you think of the word the term Latin Vulgate, it immediately jumps out as like, that's really Catholic. And it is. It's also Protestant, 'cause that's where we lived for a long time. Protestants are also very Catholic.

Jerome is going to stand behind a couple of views, including the reverence of saints or the veneration of saints, I should say, which of course is probably one of the biggest hiccups that most Protestants have with Catholic practice in theology. also one of his kind of diehard views that he's very well known for is

perpetual virginity of the Virgin Mary, which is another big controversy that will go in many different directions following the Reformation. But Jerome, I think, for better or worse, is definitely going to contribute a lot of meaningful things. And I I'm I'm excited to kind of pour into his life. So Taylor, you ready? You ready? Got your got your got your seatbelt on, my friend?

GOBBA GOOL (14:42.532)
I I I do. I'm also looking through the comments about the shroud and I'm like, Am I wrong? Am I wrong? I'm okay. I'm I'm allowed. No, it's a we're allowed to be wrong. I mean, maybe maybe don't

Jim Salmon (14:48.918)
Mm. No, you're just you're different, man. You're different. And we're wrong all the time. Yeah. So I one day when we're old when we're when we're dropping our eight hundredth episode, it's just gonna be redactions. We might do a whole series of redactions.

GOBBA GOOL (15:07.448)
that's things things we said that we've learned were not true. Yeah, it's part of the growth.

Jim Salmon (15:12.162)
That's what Augustine did. That's what that's what Thomas Merton did. I think a lot of theologians I think Bonhoeffer did that. A lot of redactions out there. Just never write while you're young, I think is what I've learned.

GOBBA GOOL (15:22.013)
I I'm ex

Well, you gotta no, you gotta start writing at some point, dude. That's kind of the you have to. It's part of the process.

Jim Salmon (15:33.678)
Maybe you just hide it. Maybe we just never should have published this podcast. But then we'd never know Jackson and LM and Enoch and all of our good friends.

GOBBA GOOL (15:37.096)
Nah, it's out there.

GOBBA GOOL (15:43.451)
Jacob. Dan Harmson. Shout up Dan Harmson.

Jim Salmon (15:46.52)
Yeah. John Harmson? I think there's two of I'm not sure. Just the Harmson the Harmson family.

GOBBA GOOL (15:52.509)
Shout out to the Harmsons. Yeah, okay. Get it take it take us back to Jerome. Give us some dates to sort of solidify ourselves, please.

Jim Salmon (16:03.146)
Alright, let's do it. So, Jerome and I love that Taylor kind of unknowingly gave us a little spoiler by mentioning this is the golden era. This kind of is the golden era of church history. And some caveats maybe, but born into a very interesting time. So our friend Jerome, born Eusebius Sophronius Hieronymus in 345 AD.

baller name, by the way. Very, very cool name. I think Hieronymus is where we get Jerome from. I think that's probably once it's been thoroughly Anglicized. but he was born in three forty five in Achilleya, which is probably like modern day like northern Italy. and he's born into a very interesting context. So he's born, like I said, three hundred forty five AD, so he's gonna spend most of his time kind of cooking in the late

GOBBA GOOL (16:38.624)
yeah.

Jim Salmon (16:57.758)
fourth century, which kind of is a golden era, because you think he's gonna be around at the same time as folks like Augustine, as Ambrose, as the Cappadocian fathers. it's just kind of like the sunset time of Athanasius. So there are like some big time ballers. And some of these dudes he's actually going to kind of interact with. Maybe not so much face to face, but even through letter writing. He's a very prolific letter writer.

On the Roman side of things, not looking good. this is, you know, of course, following the time of Constantine. And while the emperors that follow Constantine, of course, not including Julian the apostate, they are going to help develop more of like a Christian identity to Rome, they are also gonna kind of just flail to increasing threats and problems that really started cooking up in the third century.

and one of those is just constant combat and battle and attack from external tribes like the Goths and the Vandals. So it's interesting. The church is in a really interesting place. Theology is just like it's beautiful right now. We're already into Nicaea. Of course, Arianism is still around, but Arianism is like black mold, it never really goes away. and yeah, but so there's there's it's an interesting time, interesting time to be alive.

so Jerome, like I said, born three forty five. he grows up in a moderately wealthy family. not super ballin like

GOBBA GOOL (18:35.078)
Where where was he grow where did he grow up at?

Jim Salmon (18:38.23)
I forget the name of the town, but it's the the area is A Achileia, which is kind of like north what is it, like northeastern Italy, I guess. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (18:49.952)
Mm. I w the reason I I'm just trying to like place him with any of the other big boys that were around at that time, but it sounds like he was far from them. Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (19:00.876)
Little bit, yeah, 'cause Augustine Augustine he's born like I think eight years after Augustine. So their ministries kinda overlap, but they're never in the same place at the same time. I'm not sure they ever meet face to face. 'cause Augustine's always gonna be or gonna be mostly in Africa. so yeah, grows up pretty wealthy, grows up pretty well off, just just like a lot of our heroes that we talk about, he

Kind of dives into education, really gets into it, kind of seen as a prodigy, really has a strong penchant for languages, believe it or not. That's gonna come up later. in his younger years, he's notably pretty passive towards religion. He's an interesting guy though. He like I think he's raised Christian, but he doesn't really get into it much himself. And then but he has like these friends.

And has like so he has this like habit of going to the catacombs where there's tombs of all these martyrs. and he'll go there with all of his Christian buddies and they'll just like kind of, you know, walk around in these dark, shadowy areas and just feel this weird spiritual vibe. It's it's really interesting. And he i it it seems like it's kind of formative for him, even though he's also just living a

you know, typical debaucherous young person's life.

GOBBA GOOL (20:24.242)
So he was like Augustine in that way? Okay.

Jim Salmon (20:27.126)
He was. Yeah. N I wouldn't say not quite as long as Augustine 'cause Augustine seems to have more of a stretch of that kind of life. I think for him it was like a brief thing and then

GOBBA GOOL (20:37.908)
Yeah, he didn't have his come to Jesus moment yet. Okay.

Jim Salmon (20:40.31)
That's right. Not yet. Yeah. he is like a Latin guru. He loves Latin on a cultural level. He loves to read the classics. He loves Virgil. He loves Cicero. He loves all of the, you know, the finest Latin authors out from antiquity. and he's just a whiz. Like he's super, super good at Latin. And like I said, he loves the language and he gets the language really well. one day.

in still in his youth jerome is gonna get really really mysteriously ill and while he's ill he's gonna have this vision where he's standing at the throne of Jesus and he's gonna hear this loud booming voice and it's gonna say who are you and he responds back and he's like I'm I'm Jerome and I I I'm a Christian I belong to Jesus and the voice comes back and says no you don't belong to Jesus you belong to Cicero

Who is of course his favorite Latin author. Yeah. And so he wakes up and he's like, gosh. Like he's like, I I need to get my life together.

GOBBA GOOL (21:40.7)
my

GOBBA GOOL (21:50.952)
What do think you b did he write that? Was that

Jim Salmon (21:53.817)
Did he write that? I think so. Yeah, there's a lot of his writings that are still around. I'm pretty sure that comes from his pen. I think so. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (21:59.137)
So he he recorded that? I I believe it. I believe it. I believe that one.

Jim Salmon (22:05.942)
Yeah, Jerome, he he wrote a lot of stuff. There's a lot of his stuff that's still preserved. And what was cool is like we'll get more into this later. Not only did he do like translations and writings and like commentaries, he would write prefaces. So he would write about his thought process as he was writing more stuff. So we kind of have a cool insight into like his his brain, kind of how he operated. He's he's interesting. so yeah, he has this jarring dream and he realizes he's like, I need to

GOBBA GOOL (22:24.424)
Mm.

Jim Salmon (22:34.39)
Change my life. I need to do something. I need to do something drastic. He was like, you know, I need to really prove that I am committed to doing something drastically for Jesus. And interestingly, we've talked quite a bit about the influence of

monasticism specifically on the Eastern Church because of the desert fathers outside out in you know Egypt and outside of Alexandria under Saint Anthony and monasticism has not really gripped the Western church in this same way but Jerim or Jerome is gonna kind of be

a trailblazer in that regard because as he's looking for something drastic to do, the life of Antony, which is a biography written by Athanasius, had been circulating and he's like, this is what I can do. I'm just gonna go into the Syrian desert and I'm gonna live as a monk and I'm gonna live this like very serious ascetic lifestyle. And I'm gonna prove that I can really, really commit myself to Jesus. man, that's not quite what I would recommend every young guy in my in my small group to do. But you know

I think there was some good that came out of it. That's okay.

GOBBA GOOL (23:49.152)
That's like a recurring theme for them.

Jim Salmon (23:51.5)
Yeah, it's it's just ball out, go hard. Like

GOBBA GOOL (23:54.536)
Because the Cappadocians did that too, I believe.

Jim Salmon (23:57.335)
Yeah, dude, there's there's a I mean, even w we talked about Bernard and Bernard is from, you know, almost a thousand years later, like there's just this common thing of like when you really want to get to know Christ, you you find find that place of solitude. And I think there's a lot of lot of value we can learn from that.

GOBBA GOOL (24:04.319)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (24:14.514)
dude, and then also gosh. How am I blanking on his name? He PSA guy. Also medieval. Anselm. Anselm did that. Well he did the Rich Boy version of that. But but still they did it.

Jim Salmon (24:20.172)
Hmm. PSA guy.

yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jim Salmon (24:29.518)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, I I don't know. I mean, hey, I there there is something to be said about that that place of solitude where your where your soul can silently speak to Jesus. And I think we still need to find that today. But

Yeah, so he goes out there and he does his monastic thing. He's gonna live out there for about five years. But one thing that's really interesting that he does, and this is again, this is where we're seeing the building blocks of the Vulgate, of his legacy start to form. And so he goes into the desert, and while he's out there, he meets another monk who's also a Christian monk, and he was a converted Jew. And

The Jewish guy and so he thinks to himself, he's like, I've spent so much of my life learning Latin. He's like, and Latin has corrupted me. He's like, What if I do something so drastic and I learned the Hebrew language? Which was very uncommon at this point in time. Hebrew wasn't really and we'll talk about this more, it wasn't really seen as like the link to understanding the old testament because the Septuagint already existed.

GOBBA GOOL (25:40.348)
Well, they had the Septuagint. Why would they need it? And honestly, there's still people today that feel that way.

Jim Salmon (25:45.709)
You are not wrong. You are not wrong. And so I found this quote which I loved. I have to read this out. This is also from Jerome. And it just makes it seem like he it's like is you know, some people for their ascetic practices, they'll like fast for weeks at a time. I really get the sense that his ascetic practice was forcing himself to learn a language that he did not like, because he did not like Hebrew.

GOBBA GOOL (25:47.456)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (26:13.608)
Mm.

Jim Salmon (26:13.824)
which shout out to every seminary student. Like yeah. Yeah, he says, when my soul was on fire with bad thoughts, I became a scholar to a monk who had been a Jew to learn of him the Hebrew alphabet, and from the ju and from the judicious rules of Quintilian, the copious flowing eloquence of Cicero, the grave style of Fronto, and the smoothness of Pliny,

GOBBA GOOL (26:16.372)
Yeah, dude. Me too, Jerome.

Jim Salmon (26:39.712)
I l I turned to this language of hissing and broken winded words. What labor it cost me, what difficulties I went through, how often I despaired and left off, and how I began again to learn, both I myself who felt the burden can witness, and they also who lived with me. And I thank our Lord that I now gather such sweet fruit from the bitter sowing of those studies. He did not like Hebrew. He did not.

GOBBA GOOL (27:05.193)
Wow.

That's the best quote you've ever shared.

Jim Salmon (27:09.998)
I just love the the language of of hissing and broken winded words. Yeah, that's that's good. and yeah. So he's gonna live in like I said, he's gonna live in the Syrian desert for about five years. He will return to Antioch and study. that's where he's actually gonna meet both of the Gregories of the Cappadocian you know, household.

GOBBA GOOL (27:16.628)
Yeah, I love it.

Jim Salmon (27:39.145)
Gregory of Naziansis and Gregory of Nyssa. And he's gonna break bread and learn with them for a few years, which is super cool. We always love an MCU overlap incident. from there he's gonna move to Rome and he meets the the aging kind of older Pope by the name of Damasis and and they hit it off. And the Pope's basically like, Hey, you're really smart, you seem to have your stuff in order.

how would you like to be like my personal scribe? And you know, if you if you're down to do that, then you know, maybe I can sponsor, you know, some some interesting project that you are are are interested in. Because and it because one of the problems that was happening at this time in church history is that the most

How do I say this? The most widespread available Bibles, or or I guess the most the the scripture, the language of the scriptures was commonly in the language it was originally written in, which Taylor, of course, is Greek. Absolutely. The the early church spoke Greek. yeah, the the by the the New Testament was written in Greek. and for a long time, Greek was what's that? The lingua

GOBBA GOOL (28:46.592)
Greek.

Jim Salmon (29:02.318)
I should shouldn't. Is that it? Lingua domina? Okay. I don't know. I I shouldn't try to break out Latin un unsolicited. I need to be careful about that. but true to the true to form, the Romans didn't speak Greek like they used to. And and in the time that had progressed since the time of Christ, which of course had been about, you know, 350 to 400 years,

GOBBA GOOL (29:02.73)
Domina.

I I'm guessing. Let me see. I I'm

Jim Salmon (29:28.152)
Greek was very common in the Eastern Empire, which is gonna be a common theme that we see even up to our Crusades conversations. And Latin is predominant in the West. And Greek kind of still exists, but it's like the academic language. It's the language that the that the you know, the educated and the wealthy speak. So it's but it's not the common language. It's not the language of the everyday person.

GOBBA GOOL (29:54.237)
One would say it's not the vulgar language.

Jim Salmon (29:58.71)
That's right. See, look at this guy. He's got it. and so the problem was they needed like the church realized that with all of these Latin speakers, they needed a reliable translation. And there were a lot of Latin translations that existed, but they were all very kind of like

scrappily put together. And there were like a dozen of them. And they were all translated from different people who lived in different regions and they were they did not match up well with each other. They were not consistent in their translations. And so they basically found themselves where the really good translations were already in Greek and I mean they're just manuscripts. They weren't even translations. And then they had the Septuagint, which of course was the

GOBBA GOOL (30:38.472)
Mm.

Jim Salmon (30:50.037)
Translation of the 70 rabbis that had been done a few hundred years ago. So the Latins were kind of in a weird spot. But this Pope r discovers this young man who has a like genius level understanding of Latin and has a very rare grasp of Hebrew, which most people don't have. And he's like, What if you, young Jerome?

GOBBA GOOL (31:14.172)
And Greek. He knows Greek too, right?

Jim Salmon (31:17.421)
yeah, of course, of course. He definitely knows Creek. but he's like, what if you, young Padawan, were to formulate for us a new translation that could be kind of our our reliable thing? And so for like, I think it took him like 30 years total to to fully translate it. Like it was a long time, and of course, not all of it is like in one shot, it takes a long time and

GOBBA GOOL (31:20.874)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (31:39.444)
Wow.

Jim Salmon (31:45.783)
There's obviously other little interruptions in his life, but it'll take a very, very long time for him to finish it.

GOBBA GOOL (31:51.435)
Does he use the Hebrew text or does he use the Septuagint? I feel like I should I feel like I should know that off my

Jim Salmon (31:56.525)
Taylor.

Jim Salmon (32:00.948)
No, that is that is everyone who's watching our video live knows I'm messing around with my stupid light. that is a great question, and that is also a topic of great controversy, as you could imagine. Yeah, yeah. So I'll let me see. I I wrote this down too. I'm trying to find the quote that I had. It was really good. okay, I'm gonna read a quote, and I want you to guess.

GOBBA GOOL (32:16.466)
Is it really? 'Cause we don't know.

Jim Salmon (32:30.561)
Who wrote this? Okay. And this so what Jerome is gonna do is he is not going to use the Semchuigans to translate the Old Testament. He is going to use the old Hebrew Masoretic texts. which is controversial at that time for a lot of reasons. One, I mean, we can remember back from our conversation of the chordodissimin controversies and figuring out when Easter was.

GOBBA GOOL (32:46.464)
good.

Jim Salmon (32:59.915)
The church around this time does not like being reliant on Jewish things. They very much feel like the church has become a new thing and they don't really want to rely on that kind of stuff. So even the study of he the Hebrew language could sometimes fall under scrutiny because it was like, that's that's the old wine flask, dude. We don't need that anymore. so that was very controversial. But I'm gonna read this quilt. Tell me who you think said it. For my own part.

I cannot sufficiently express my wonder that anything should at this date be found in the Hebrew manuscript which escaped so many translators perfectly acquainted with the language. I say nothing of the seventy, regarding whose harmony in mind and spirit surpassing that which is found in even one man, I dare not in any way pronounce a decided opinion, except that in my judgment, beyond question, very high authority must in this work of translation be conceded to them.

GOBBA GOOL (34:02.048)
Martin Luther?

Jim Salmon (34:05.325)
That was Augustine.

GOBBA GOOL (34:08.454)
wow, okay.

Jim Salmon (34:09.353)
Right. So remember they're contemporaries. So there's like letters that we can read today of Augustine and Jerome essentially arguing back and forth about whether it's appropriate to use the Septuagint or not. And Augustine's basically like, We've relied on these translations for centuries. There is no reason we should go back to the Hebrew manuscripts. That is irresponsible. And you can't possibly be arrogant enough to think

GOBBA GOOL (34:13.204)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (34:37.451)
that you are gonna discover anything that they haven't done already. but Jerome was like, Hold my beer, bro. I got this. So

GOBBA GOOL (34:41.106)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (34:46.218)
Did he at least compare? This is crazy see, he's doing like textual criticism

Jim Salmon (34:52.822)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (34:54.676)
Like fifteen hundred years before it gets super popular.

Jim Salmon (34:58.527)
Yes. It's very, very, very groundbreaking. And and again, like it's fascinating to me that he did this not without controversy. Like there were dudes who were like, I don't like him doing this at all. who pushed back on it? Literally someone as renowned as Augustine, someone whose name is like legitimately bigger than his in church history. but yeah, he he will reference them.

I don't think it's like super consistent. So I was actually doing a little bit of reading about like essentially where do how do Jerome's translations hold up now that we have all this all these years of historical criticism. And it's essentially like it seems like the consensus from historians and from linguists, I guess, is that he he's really good and he's much better than the any anyone should be at at this point in time.

he has some really good books that he translated, and then there are some that have some s significant errors. Or I don't know if significant errors that sounds like. Maybe it's like heretical.

GOBBA GOOL (36:06.612)
Well no, like he didn't have he didn't have all of revelation or something like that.

Jim Salmon (36:13.109)
It was something like that, yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (36:14.576)
Yeah. I don't know. Guys, this is just a perfect example of how deep the waters go all across Christendom and history and so like this we this is outside of I would say our typical wheelhouse 'cause we we kind of are doing more history whereas this is like this is history but it's biblical translation history.

Jim Salmon (36:24.513)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (36:43.937)
Yeah. And there's people who have entire PhDs about this topic.

GOBBA GOOL (36:44.648)
Right. man. Maybe we should think about getting somebody on who can do like a I I can ask some people. Let us know in the comments if if you guys want to hear some more history of the Bible.

Jim Salmon (36:52.417)
Like a scholar. Yeah. That'd be pretty cool.

Jim Salmon (37:01.463)
Going deeper into it, yeah. so yeah, he so he's gonna dedicate himself to it. So he he's living in Rome for a few years. He's working under the Pope, who is eventually going to die. Now, there is one thing about Jerome that absolutely needs to be said, and I it it's it's funny because

You could read this and think, that sounds kind of slanderous, you know? Like I bet someone probably said that and they they didn't know what they were talking about. And then you actually read a lot of the stuff he wrote and you're like, no, it's it's true. and it's that he's he can be kind of insufferable. Like he's he's in the words of you know my favorite historian on YouTube, Ryan Reeves, kind of a grump. but yeah, he's he's very he's very difficult.

He has a very confrontational way of interacting with people. He's not afraid of telling someone he think that they he thinks that they're wrong and basically insulting them while doing it. he's a he's he's not an easy person by any means. I I don't think he has that that shepherd's heart like we often see.

GOBBA GOOL (38:13.024)
Mm.

Jim Salmon (38:13.897)
had this great quote that I found that said, he was vain and unable to bear rivals, extremely sensitive as to the estimation in which he was held by his contemporaries and especially by the bishops, passionate and resentful, but at times becoming suddenly placeable. Scornful and violent in controversy, kind to the weak and the poor, respectful in his dealings with women, entirely without avarice.

extraordinarily diligent in work and nobly tenacious of the main objects to which he devoted his life, there was, however, something of monkish cowardice in his asceticism, and his influence was not felt by the strong.

GOBBA GOOL (38:55.26)
So he got a he had a heart for basically the powerless and picked fights with every other like big dog.

Jim Salmon (39:08.491)
Yeah, I I I think that he had he had a good set of like he had a good skill set for a Christian, you know. I mean to be said that he was kind to the weak and poor and respectful to women and and without avarice. Like I I do th I mean I I know people like this, you know? People who aren't hateful and who aren't like like malicious.

But if you get into an argument with them, it will make you want to pull your hair out. Cause you're like, my gosh, you are so like intense right now. Like they just they do not like pull back essentially. I think that is a hundred percent how this guy is. Because he has enemies his entire life. And sometimes he has enemies because, you know, he he calls out their golden calf and they don't like it. And sometimes he has enemies because I think he can just be a jerk. And people just don't like him for that.

GOBBA GOOL (39:57.109)
Dude, I relate to this guy.

Jim Salmon (39:59.662)
You're like, hold on. I

GOBBA GOOL (40:02.344)
No, this was this I feel like I'm getting better at it, but this was me. This was me. World Yeah. I I get it.

Jim Salmon (40:05.943)
Sure. Yeah. That's all right, man. We're all we're all moving.

Jim Salmon (40:13.717)
Yeah. So

GOBBA GOOL (40:14.494)
I get it. I are you gonna are you gonna talk about are we done with talking about his translation? 'Cause I have one little thing I wanna say. Okay, so I think it's really endearing that the church was like, We have to get the scripture into the language that the people understand. And then they kept doing services in Latin until nineteen sixty.

Jim Salmon (40:24.492)
Yeah, sure. Go ahead.

Jim Salmon (40:35.309)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (40:39.309)
That is that is a really I I the irony did not escape me when I thought about that. They were just like it'd be so wholesome for the people to understand like the rights that we're doing and then they're just like, I think we're good. I think Latin's perfect and we're never gonna change it. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (40:46.728)
Yeah. Yeah, with it's

GOBBA GOOL (40:59.264)
Just gonna keep it. It's been dead for hundreds of years and we're just gonna keep going. Yeah.

Jim Salmon (41:03.437)
That's right. It's alive in here, baby. Yeah, no, that is I I'd be very curious about how a Catholic would respond to that because yeah, that's interesting.

GOBBA GOOL (41:13.248)
Dude, my father in law was raised Catholic and his first masses were in Latin. Like this is do we talk about the window of living memory? Yeah.

Jim Salmon (41:19.393)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (41:23.293)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, and there's there's plenty of plenty of Catholics today who still think that that the change up at Vatican II was was was fraudulent. So

GOBBA GOOL (41:34.856)
It was. So that and that's where we get the word vulgar from though.

Jim Salmon (41:39.258)
Mm. Yeah, it just means common. That's right. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (41:41.17)
Yeah, yeah. So it's it's like a like a peasants vulgar peasants. Yeah.

Jim Salmon (41:45.672)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, that's good. It's peas peasantee. all right, so the Pope, Pope Damasus is gonna die. like I said, he was already pretty old just a few years after he'd been working with Jerome. Jerome thought

For better or worse, that he was going to be named as the successor and he wasn't. the new Pope was actually kind of a rival of his. I'm not sure if they actually had any real theological disagreements, but Jerome didn't like him, which again, I don't think was a very uncommon thing. He's like, this guy's a clown. and so there's there's like some controversy that stirs up. It seems like there's some rumors that kind of go around that Jerome is having inappropriate relationships with the female monks that live at James.

Of course, you know, history doesn't give any credence to these, but it's just kind of like he needed to leave. He he wasn't interested in being there. It was becoming enemy territory, so he was like, I'm done. so he left, went to Antioch for I think just a beat, just probably just you know, shake some hands and meets and see some people. but then he goes down to Bethlehem, which

kinda becomes his new favorite place to be. He just he loves the way that life kind of moves a little bit slower. he gets I guess one of the female monks that he often traveled with, had a

pretty wealthy background that is gonna be able to buy them a bunch of land. And so they just build and it becomes this very traditional monastic model of being like self-sufficient. They live off the land. There's a lot of time for, you know, contemplation, prayer. And of course he's gonna keep working away at all of his translations and eventually commentaries and stuff. So he's just gonna keep keep blasting through that. And so that's kind of his favorite place to be for a for a long

Jim Salmon (43:38.944)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (43:39.784)
Mm.

And and he stays there for a while.

Jim Salmon (43:45.944)
Pretty much, yeah. He he will end up dying in Bethlehem late later on in life. I think he he probably has a little bit of tra I think he goes back and forth, maybe back to Rome once or twice or Antioch, but he doesn't stay there uninterrupted. I think he has a couple things he has to do for brief, brief little stints. yeah, so

Like I kinda mentioned earlier, he you can you can look up like a a grand collection of Jerome's texts and they're they're really well preserved and they're also pretty readable. Like you could you could read through a lot of them right now. I'm just gonna bring up

GOBBA GOOL (44:24.094)
Yeah, he's all his all his stuff's on New Advent, yeah.

Jim Salmon (44:27.361)
That's right. Yeah, new advent. Dude, our our sponsor for this episode. I think they're a non profit actually. I'm not sure they would do sponsors.

GOBBA GOOL (44:31.327)
I wished.

I also don't know if they would have anything to do with us. Like you guys is I sa I was gonna say you guys say too many anti papist things and then let's just be honest, Taylor says too many anti papist things.

Jim Salmon (44:37.101)
Maybe not.

Jim Salmon (44:48.285)
How's it just not call papists, bro? It's not 1615 anymore. Jeez. Like it's like it's like when my dad calls Asian people Orientals. It's like, come on, dude. Like it was probably okay for a time, but it's not anymore. Like it's 2026.

GOBBA GOOL (44:55.072)
It's like fun to me.

GOBBA GOOL (45:00.533)
Does he

GOBBA GOOL (45:06.016)
I say we own it.

Jim Salmon (45:10.73)
All right.

So yeah, so I'm gonna talk about just a couple of his kind of contra works, his his against writings. one's called Against Helvidious. this is where he's going to defend the doctrine of perpetual virginity of Mary. This is the idea that this is the idea that Mary did not have any relations with Joseph and did not have, and of course, as a result, had

GOBBA GOOL (45:30.576)
Mm great.

Jim Salmon (45:42.46)
No children but Jesus to preserve her, you know, vir virginal chastity or whatever. interestingly, like Helvidious is gonna bring up arguments not super uncommon to what most Protestants would say today, which is that the term for it which is essentially like

There's brothers that are mentioned of Jesus in the gospels, and that seems to imply. But if you ever talk to a Catholic, they would use an argument that literally is gonna originate right here from Jerome, which is his argument that the word for brothers from that from the original word

is more familial and can be used as cousins or other relatives, and that just because it's used it can be a term for brother doesn't mean it's always a term for brother. And that's basically an argument that originates from Jerome. And he has other arguments too, but he is a big defender that Mary stayed perpetually chased throughout her life and and had no other kids but Jesus. So

That's a big thing. Taylor, any

GOBBA GOOL (46:59.162)
y I'm currently on Catholic Answers for Adelphos and like Yeah

Jim Salmon (47:03.589)
Okay.

GOBBA GOOL (47:07.688)
Yeah, I mean that that's the argument they make. I don't I'm not Adel Adelphos listeners is brothers in Greek. And I d obviously they make the argument to this day. that I guess it stemmed from Jerome. I I mean w when we if you haven't listened back to any of the patristic stuff and you know Fate of the Apostles kind of like got into that era too, i the the folks in

Jim Salmon (47:10.765)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (47:16.172)
Right.

Jim Salmon (47:22.571)
Yes.

GOBBA GOOL (47:36.927)
the fourth century, third and fourth century were really big on like chastity. Like they remember the lion that Paul baptized, like gets up and and and then they the that author even notes that he ran past female lions because he was now because he was now a chaste lion. So I I think

Jim Salmon (47:44.737)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (47:48.885)
Of course.

Jim Salmon (47:56.119)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

GOBBA GOOL (48:02.068)
Maybe there was just a bunch of it's it's kinda like how people dog on purity culture here, but like purity culture was a response to just like sexual devi deviancy of the hippies, you know?

Jim Salmon (48:07.629)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (48:16.065)
For sure, for sure. It was definitely a response to the sexual revolution in the sixties.

GOBBA GOOL (48:21.17)
So so I that's so funny how you phrase that all academic and clean and technical. And I'm like and I'm like, them dirty hippies.

Jim Salmon (48:26.589)
I'm just trying to give people stuff to Google later, you know? The denigration of American morality. Yeah. Well

GOBBA GOOL (48:33.152)
But yeah, I think they were dealing with something similar.

Jim Salmon (48:38.731)
Well, and I think you're spot on. Cause literally one of the arguments that he uses in Against Telvidious is that it would be it would have been defiling for mar I mean, I don't know I don't know if I can say that he said it explicitly. I don't have the quote right in front of me, but I was reading through it earlier. But he essentially says, would would it be appropriate for

the the temple which bore the presence of God to be defiled with sensuality, essentially. Like he's basically saying like it would have been demeaning if someone as chaste as Mary, who would be seen as worthy to carry the the you know, the body of Jesus, were to have sex, basically. and I think, yeah, I mean like even

GOBBA GOOL (49:28.782)
Right. Right.

Jim Salmon (49:35.24)
Even being like very sympathetic towards historical views and and like generally understanding where it's coming from, I don't know if I with my ethic of like sensuality and relationship would say that it's defiling in any way to have relations like that. Like I don't know. That that that seems like a big ethical jump that I'm not sure I could latch on to.

GOBBA GOOL (50:00.857)
I mean that yeah, I know, I know. And we I'm terrible at this of giving people the benefit of the doubt, but for this one I seem to be more understanding of Yeah.

Jim Salmon (50:12.085)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean again, I think I think I think a lot of reformers would say that a lot of the areas w we where we would come to disagree with the development of church doctrine were where they where they got a little too syncretistic, which obviously is something that our Catholic listeners who we love very much would not agree with, but again, we can't we can't really present facts without also presenting our tradition. We just try to do so in a way where we can present your tradition fairly while also representing ours. So

GOBBA GOOL (50:39.934)
Unless you're a hippie.

Jim Salmon (50:41.517)
Or a Mormon. well, I wanna re I wanna fairly represent them too, but I just I don't really wanna be flattering 'cause they're not in the body of Christ.

GOBBA GOOL (50:50.336)
Dude, one time I th thirty second thirty second rabbit trail. I d I t one time I taught the kids we were doing a series on world religions and I taught them on Mormonism and like by the end my kids were like laughing and they were like, Is this what they actually believe? And I was like, Yes. Pl please stop laughing

Jim Salmon (50:54.261)
Okay.

Jim Salmon (51:00.365)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (51:13.549)
I have heard Mormonism described as Christian fanfiction and I

GOBBA GOOL (51:21.03)
Well, it reads like sci fi sci fi from the time period. Like yeah.

Jim Salmon (51:24.853)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Syncretism, man. All right. I got a couple more things about Jerome and then we'll then we'll land the plane. he's gonna write another one called Against Vigilanteus. Vigilanteus is basically, again, gonna share some views that Protestants probably sympathize with. He he doesn't like the way that the church is revering martyrs and speaking of them as if they're alive, and they're not they haven't fully developed the

The the practice of venerating saints, so it's probably gonna look different in the fourth century than it would look today or even in medieval times. but vigilanteus doesn't seem to be a very big fan of it. Jerome is, of course, going to dog him pretty hard for it. And I won't even get to the argument. I just want to read this quote because it shows how like seething and mean Jerome can be. So I just wanna it's so good. It's so good.

GOBBA GOOL (52:20.305)
Hit us. Hit us.

Jim Salmon (52:23.635)
The world has given birth to many monsters. In Isaiah we read of centaurs and sirens, screech owls and pelicans. Job in mystic language describes Leviathan and Behemoth, Cerberus and the birds of Stymphilus. The Ara the the Aramanthean boar and the Nemean lion, the Chimera and the many-headed Hydra are told of in poetic fables. Virgil describes Cacchus, the

Spain has produced Garion with his three bodies. Gaul alone has had no monsters, but has ever been rich in men of courage and great eloquence. All at once Vigilantius, or more correctly, Dormitantius good pun there for all of our Latin speakers, has arisen, animated by an unclean spirit to fight against the Spirit of Christ, and to deny that religious reverence is to be paid to the tombs of the martyrs.

Vigils, he says, are to be condemned. Alleluia must never be sung except at Easter. Continence is a heresy, chastity is a hotbed of lust. And as Euphorbus is said to have been born again in the person of Pythagoras, so in this fellow the corrupt mind of Jovinianus has arisen, so that in him, no less than as in his predecessor, we are bound to meet the snares of the devil.

GOBBA GOOL (53:49.169)
Dude, I cannot believe he slapped him with the comma talk about a snoozer, comma. Dude, that's like it's like Joe Biden or as I say, Sleepy Joe. man.

Jim Salmon (53:54.368)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (53:59.469)
Sleepy Joe. Yeah. man. Yeah, I I just love how he's like, the world has given birth to mini monsters. And one of those monsters is the idiot I'm talking to today who hates Jesus and is and says hallelujah is dumb.

GOBBA GOOL (54:10.932)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (54:15.42)
So I wonder if Jerome knew what the doctrines he defended would evolve into if he would be s if he would be so spicy.

Jim Salmon (54:25.407)
I don't think so.

Yeah, that's that's I think that's the the the perfect question when we look at the the early church fathers who are often quoted as being like, well they said this. But it's like, yeah, but they said this would it looked really different. Would they have said that it's the whole founding fathers, you know, did they mean muskets or did they mean assault rifles? Like, you know.

GOBBA GOOL (54:44.639)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (54:50.004)
Well, it's it's almost like w we're still, you know, in the grand scheme of history, like somewhat fresh off the Protestant Reformation. and so it's almost like pr fast forward another five hundred years, imagine like doctrine is just like gone. And it's like, you know, would we wonder maybe those guys would have been a little more keen on a rule of faith if

Jim Salmon (54:58.57)
Very fresh, yeah.

Jim Salmon (55:07.709)
Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (55:13.034)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (55:18.716)
If they knew what was gonna happen. Now that's impossible to say 'cause I'm not a you know, I don't but

Jim Salmon (55:22.208)
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I I think we could argue that secular humanism got a lot of got a lot of oomph from the pre from the Protestant Reformation 'cause we deinstitutionalized so much.

GOBBA GOOL (55:32.896)
I am gonna I think I will take secular humanism over pre pre Rotter pre Protestant Reformation Rome.

Jim Salmon (55:39.424)
Bad Catholicism.

Jim Salmon (55:44.318)
I mean hey, you know, you gotta gotta make gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet, you know what they say. which is an awful argument.

GOBBA GOOL (55:48.639)
Yeah. But I I do wonder if like I do wonder if Jerome was shown Hey, so in like twelve hundred years it's gonna be completely anathema for a pastor to have a wife. And and I and and it's go and and they are going to heavily venerate saints and they're also they're also gonna sell

Jim Salmon (56:06.73)
Right.

GOBBA GOOL (56:16.458)
basically access to heaven and if you go and visit the graves of saints you can ask for miracles. Like I I wonder if he would.

Jim Salmon (56:24.501)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (56:29.418)
Yeah, I mean I I think the priest's celibacy thing was already in practice today. I think that came about pretty early. I I haven't looked that up, but I'm pretty sure it it's been around for a while.

GOBBA GOOL (56:32.37)
Well

GOBBA GOOL (56:40.53)
I don't know how widespread it 'cause one of the Cappadocian fathers was married, so

Jim Salmon (56:45.38)
interesting. Okay. That'd be worth looking into. yeah, I don't know. I mean, it this is why I this is why I don't like when Protestants look at the Reformation as if the church was dead and this was the breath of of life that re-entered it. Because I I think it's I think that is a reading that

GOBBA GOOL (56:48.191)
Yeah.

Jim Salmon (57:09.308)
leans too close into what the Mormons say about like the great apostasy. Like I don't believe the church has ever died because I believe that Jesus said that the gates of hell wouldn't prevail against the the the church. I do think that the Reformation, much like many Reform movements, was an act of judgment and an act of liberation, which I think is beautiful. so yeah, I don't know. I

I love the Reformation. I do think it was corrective in some ways. I also think it opened up more cans of worms. I I think it's complicated, but I I'm grateful for it ultimately.

GOBBA GOOL (57:43.785)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, anything's gonna do that, right? Any any mass correction. So there's always over correction. There's yeah, but anyway, Jerome Jerome did have spicy words, so

Jim Salmon (57:47.54)
Of course, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Jim Salmon (57:56.394)
Jerome though, yeah.

He did, and he was an interesting guy. And yeah, so the last the last really meaningful thing is so when Rome gets sacked in four ten, like I already mentioned, he's not going to be there, which very interesting to see how the turn of history could have been different if he was somehow impeded by the sacking of Rome. but he was in Bethlehem hanging out with his with his monk buddies.

Pelagius, the you know, renowned heretic, is actually going to come down to Palestine during this time. And both Jerome and Augustine are gonna kind of join forces to write about how they think Pelagians are kind of icky, and then the story goes that Pelagians burn down.

Jerome's monastery in 416, which is of course this big heartbreaking thing because he's been there for decades, and of course he loves being a monk at a monastery. but yeah, I mean, you know, like I said, love love his some of his arguments or hate him. Like Jerome's work in giving the Latin-speaking church

GOBBA GOOL (58:55.844)
Jim Salmon (59:07.784)
A consistent biblical text to lean on for a very long time, I think is incredible. And I think that's a reason to be grateful for his impact on the church. warts in all for our Protestant brothers, and maybe no warts if you're if you're a Catholic listening to this. Or if you're Orthodox listening to this and you're like the Latin Vulgate, that sounds awful. we never cared about that. We had it all in Greek, baby. anyways, Jerome's gonna die.

four twenty five, likely surrounded by all of his monk friends holding hands and praying over him. And and that's him. That's our boy Romy Rome.

GOBBA GOOL (59:47.678)
Well done. Good good little good little time travel backwards for somebody w somebody we missed.

Jim Salmon (59:52.788)
Yeah, it was fun. I missed the early church. Yeah. That was a good one. All right, well, listener, you don't need to hear about this, but Taylor, we have more episodes to record, so I think we should keep it rolling.

GOBBA GOOL (01:00:06.11)
We should. And yeah, guys, we'll see ya next week and look forward to reading comments.

Jim Salmon (01:00:12.918)
That's right. See ya next time.

GOBBA GOOL (01:00:15.355)
Bye bye.