136. The History of Christian Pilgrimage

Who wants to go on a trip?!

Our journey through the Crusades have brought up an interesting topic: what's the deal with Christians traveling far and wide to visit so-called holy sites? 

Well join us today as we dig deeper into the historical idea of going on pilgrimage within different eras of the faith, and what it means for us today.

And why maybe, just maybe, you should talk to your pastor before getting re-baptized in the Jordan River on your tour through the Holy Land.

Just saying.

Transcript

Jim Salmon (00:01)
Everybody? John? Taylor.

GOBBA GOOL (00:01)
Yeah. Hey this is and and we

are

Jim Salmon (00:10)
Church history for chumps.

GOBBA GOOL (00:12)
Yeah. Welcome. Welcome to another wonderful episode. So

Jim Salmon (00:18)
right. We're still

in our ⁓ our little siesta, our little gap year from ⁓ between Crusades dos y tray. So yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (00:27)
I know. You

know what the best part about this break is that not only did we want it, I think the listeners were like, Yeah, this is getting a bit dark.

Jim Salmon (00:37)
They're just getting bummed, you know. There's not a whole lot of bright lights in in the Crusades stories. There there's a couple. There's some there's some nifty stuff, but there's some there's some tough stuff too.

GOBBA GOOL (00:46)
Yeah. Well, when we jump

back in in a couple weeks, we'll do Third Crusade, we'll do another little breaky break, then we'll finish fourth. And then guys we can we're I think we agreed on we'll do a pre reformation series, right?

Jim Salmon (01:01)
⁓

maybe, maybe.

GOBBA GOOL (01:04)
Guys, I really wanna do a pre Reformation series. So I need you all

Jim Salmon (01:10)
You have to remember when we did our poll, the second place for the next series to do was actually on the Great Awakenings.

GOBBA GOOL (01:17)
was the Great Awakening.

I

Jim Salmon (01:22)
How fun would that be? Don't you want to be greatly awakened?

GOBBA GOOL (01:23)
⁓ it that's yes, it's

and it's such an encouraging time. It's

Jim Salmon (01:29)
Sometimes.

The second one probably less so. But they're illuminating. As an American Christian, the Great Awakenings are like, wow, this is it's like reading your grandpa's journal from Nam. Actually, it was my grand my grandpa would have been too old to be in Nom.

GOBBA GOOL (01:32)
yeah, but

Yeah yes yes I submit to

the will of the proletariat, but I I do want to do a pre I like the idea of going chronologically.

Jim Salmon (01:57)
Yeah, I mean well that means that we there's probably like a couple hundred years between between the last crusade and the Reformation, right?

GOBBA GOOL (02:04)
I'm gonna go

ahead and give you a little spoiler. It's more it's more of the worst stuff. No what?

Jim Salmon (02:07)
Stop it. Stop it. That's not That's what we need. We need to fill in the

we need to fill in the gaps. We can't just just jump around, we're gonna dodge hit that's how revisionism exists, Taylor.

GOBBA GOOL (02:20)
Okay,

here's your here's your like one sentence summary after the Crusades. ⁓ Spain starts amassing power and absolutely abuses the church.

Jim Salmon (02:27)
Very interesting.

Yup, yeah, sounds good.

GOBBA GOOL (02:34)
And then the reformation happens.

Jim Salmon (02:38)
I think I've I have not confirmed this, but I think that's why the Reformation never really took off in Spain. It's cause the Inquisition was was hot that's what I'm saying. Anybody's like, Hey, actually I'm not sure I like the Pope anymore and they're like, Okay, cool, come step in this room.

GOBBA GOOL (02:48)
Probably 'cause they would have just killed everybody brutally.

Hey, can I talk to you over here for a second?

Jim Salmon (02:58)
Yeah.

I got you this cool hat. It's a it's a bag. Put over your head and get in this van. Yeah, it's the Inquisitors were not messing around.

GOBBA GOOL (03:03)
⁓ no. What you know what,

listeners, tell us tell us what you want next. 'Cause I mean I feel like we probably have what, eight ish more episodes to do on Crusades.

Jim Salmon (03:12)
Right.

I don't know, man. There there there's like seven crusades total and we're only we're only doing we're only at two. I think the first one took the longest because we had to really set the stage for it. ⁓ and I I think the third one will probably take like two or three episodes. I don't know. ⁓ here's the thing. We could also do true crime for chumps because we could listen, listen. We could do ⁓ the the Waco story because of how

GOBBA GOOL (03:28)
Yes. Yes.

And fourth will be yes, yes.

Jim Salmon (03:50)
⁓ adjacent they were to the seventh day adventists. Branch dividians were an offshoot of the Seventh day Adventists, also from the Second Great Awakening. Talk about Jonestown. Jim Jones was literally ordained in the Disciples of Christ denomination.

GOBBA GOOL (04:04)
So here's here's the thing. I think those episodes would be wildly popular because that's that's what the people want. But there are so many podcasts that talk about

Jim Salmon (04:12)
Yeah.

Right.

But not from a church history angle. That's the thing. We can't be indulgent about then they drank the Kool Aid and they all died. No, we have to talk about the church side of it. I think that would be really interesting.

GOBBA GOOL (04:32)
All right. I'm h I'm interested to hear what the people say.

Jim Salmon (04:36)
Yeah. People can say whatever they want, man. I love the people. The people are good. Well, the people are sinful, but so are we. That's okay.

GOBBA GOOL (04:38)
Yeah.

Right, you pol you Pelagian.

So ⁓ yeah. How's how's life for John? What are you doing this summer?

Jim Salmon (04:54)
dude, a whole lot of nothing. I just went to the Chirakawas for the first time. Did you ever go up there when you were in Tucson?

GOBBA GOOL (04:56)
Really?

I bless you.

Jim Salmon (05:02)
Gosh dang it. Jirakawas is a national it's not a park. Is it like a national monument or something? It's very pretty. It's a very it's a beautiful drive. It's less than two hours at a Tucson. little walking area, hiking out outdoors is what they when you're walking outdoors, they call it hiking. I wasn't sure if you were familiar. ⁓ but yeah, really, really pretty ⁓ it is southwest.

GOBBA GOOL (05:04)
No, I don't even

Is it s is it south?

Jim Salmon (05:30)
Southeast of Tucson. 'Cause like you go to Wilcox and then you head south from there. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (05:33)
⁓ okay, yeah,

I never ventured that far. You had to you had to pass through Benson?

Jim Salmon (05:41)
Yeah, we did. We did. Benson's. Dude, those tiny little like I think the only thing creepier to me than an Arizona ghost town is an Arizona not quite ghost town where there's like two families living there. No, yeah, well if it's Mormons, there's gonna be about twelve families, but the two family ones are the people who were just living off the grid and collecting rifles and hunting knives.

GOBBA GOOL (05:43)
And you surviv and you survived?

Yeah.

Yeah, and they're all Mormons.

Speaking of

branch dividians Yeah, yeah.

Jim Salmon (06:12)
Exactly, exactly.

Benson is where a compound would do huge numbers, bro. I'm sure they would. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (06:19)
Well, they do well. They do well. But no, I

never went to the Chiracawas. Okay, so you're not going anywhere or doing anything this summer. Well, I'm going to Orlando for the SPC National Convention, so I know. I wonder depending on when this episode airs, ⁓ it may or may not be before the convention. Come say hi. Visit me at the gateway booth. I will literally be chained to the gateway booth.

Jim Salmon (06:27)
Where are you going? You're going to Disney World, right?

How convenient, mister Disney over here.

Mm. You probably shouldn't say that with the SBC's history, right?

GOBBA GOOL (06:53)
I will figuratively be tied down

Jim Salmon (06:58)
Please come free me from my booth. I will be shackled there with no will of my own.

GOBBA GOOL (07:01)
No no, I'm just

Okay. We apologized for that in ninety five.

It was just to make sure we meant it.

Jim Salmon (07:15)
You know what I need to mention? Like like we have people comment who taught like of course everyone yelled at Taylor for his terrible history on the Shroud of Turin. Those are mostly Catholics, of course. Joking, joking. ⁓ you know, we we had our our our pal Anthony do a shout out for the Episcopalians. Like I I think we have a really cool, like broad spread spectrum of

GOBBA GOOL (07:44)
We do. I'm grateful for it.

Jim Salmon (07:44)
church in our comments

and in our in our listener base and that's amazing. I love that. So if you're ⁓ if you're something or if you're nothing, leave us a comment. We'd love to know. Maybe you're disciples of Christ. Maybe you're a branch of idiotion. Maybe you're David Koresh and you survived and you're listening. That's real weird.

GOBBA GOOL (08:01)
That's weird. Now you're we now you you took it weird.

But yes, then after after the SBC fights over a bunch of stuff for two days, then I'm gonna go to Disney World.

Jim Salmon (08:15)
Right. Right. Okay. Okay.

GOBBA GOOL (08:16)
And then

I come back.

Jim Salmon (08:19)
What if one of our listeners wants to go to Disney World with you? Would you let meet you? Let buy you a little set of ears.

GOBBA GOOL (08:24)
If someone was

if someone was like, I'll be in the magic kingdom on the same day I'm in the magic kingdom, I'm happy to meet with them.

Jim Salmon (08:32)
Would you go on a ride with them? Would you let them stick around like the whole like what if they went by themselves?

GOBBA GOOL (08:34)
It depends how

It it depends if they had a fast pass and could hang. Isn't that so bad? I'm like, I don't care if you ca I we can hang, but ⁓ you gotta hang, you know.

Jim Salmon (08:40)
⁓ that's fair yeah.

But that's

right. Yeah, you need I need a little boost, if you know what I'm saying.

GOBBA GOOL (08:52)
Yeah. Well no, because we'll

yeah, like we'll be we'll have fa yes. Yeah. Correct, correct. I got things to do. I g I know. No, don't. I love it. Yeah. And then I c we cap off the summer by going to ⁓ Falls Creek for collegiate week and hanging out with college kids all week.

Jim Salmon (08:56)
'cause you'll have the fast pass. So you just need them to not be slowing you down. ⁓ gosh, Disney Disney is a Disney is the Colt, honestly. That's the third episode we're gonna do in that series. Jonestown, Waco, and Disney grown ups.

cool. Okay.

GOBBA GOOL (09:21)
Talking theology

and church history. It's gonna be so fun.

Jim Salmon (09:25)
That sounds like fun. Yeah. Can anyone go say hi to you there? Or is that like a closed closed thing?

GOBBA GOOL (09:26)
It's the best. The app s No,

if they're if you are listening and going to Collegiate Week, you c we you can hang out with me all week. Yeah, it'd be a lot of fun. No fast pass required. Yeah, baby. Well, sounds like I have a much more action packed summer than you.

Jim Salmon (09:37)
nice. Okay. No fast pass required. Dude, that's awesome. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean we bought a house like six months ago. Our money is the house, our vacation is the house. ⁓ so and honestly, I'm not mad at it. I like it. I like a house. Yeah. Breaking generational curses. And the generation is millennials. And the curse is the housing market. Yeah, God is good, man.

GOBBA GOOL (09:53)
Right.

Yeah, good for you guys. Happy you did that.

You you got in. You did the impossible.

He is. Well, shall we start?

Jim Salmon (10:15)
Yeah, so this is your this is your first of many apology episodes, right, Tay? That's right. No, this is your re examination of the Shroud of Turin, right?

GOBBA GOOL (10:21)
Yep. Who am I attacking?

you mean an like not ⁓ not an ap ⁓ ap apologia, but like a actual ⁓

Jim Salmon (10:33)
No, like an actual apology. Like I'm sorry I said that.

GOBBA GOOL (10:39)
Notice how I immediately went to yeah, who's my ⁓ who's my target? I guess.

Jim Salmon (10:42)
Yeah, who am I attacking? Yeah.

man. No, I'm excited for this one. I don't know anything about it. I am in the dark, so I'm I'm stoked.

GOBBA GOOL (10:48)
Yeah.

So we are talking about pilgrimage. I really wanted to do something somewhat related to the Crusades. ⁓ just kind of like how we did with the relics. I'm like, yeah, you know, this is kind of interesting. So it's adjacent. We are gonna be all over the timeline though. So pilgrimage comes from Latin with ⁓ peregrinus.

Jim Salmon (11:01)
Okay.

Adjacent. ⁓

GOBBA GOOL (11:22)
Which kinda actually just meant foreigner, stranger, someone on a journey, temporary resident, all that. And it sort of evolved. I guess Augustine refers to Christians as pilgrims. And so that yeah, yeah, so that was already well established. And the idea is that Christians are ultimately

Jim Salmon (11:38)
Wow.

Before John Bunyan, right?

Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (11:49)
Foreigners, strangers in this land. But we're also I mean, pilgrimage has historical. I mean, we talked about Helena making a pilgrimage and then bringing back, you know, relics to Constantinople, ⁓ all the way up to modern pilgrimages, which is like you can book your pilgrimage to Israel.

Jim Salmon (11:52)
Hmm, okay.

Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (12:16)
With a guided tour for seventy five hundred dollars a pop and you

Jim Salmon (12:20)
That's right. Shlomo

has a great Hebrew accent and he'll sell you where all the good swarma is.

GOBBA GOOL (12:25)
Exactly.

Exactly. And you can get on a air conditioned bus and go around and get shown everything. So kinda like, my gosh, it's the yawning again, bro. It's the I don't know why I do this. We all have things. So I I'm curious when you hear the word pilgrimage, what comes to mind?

Jim Salmon (12:36)
What are you doing?

I typically think like ⁓ religiously devote people who are going to a specific place, like usually like a sacred or a holy place, ⁓ to pray. ⁓ it's usually like someone trying to have some kind of spiritual experience or maybe it's a penance thing. But yeah, it's usually what I think of.

GOBBA GOOL (13:11)
Yeah. That I mean that's sort of kind of what came to my mind as I started thinking about it. ⁓ I also I mean, pilgrimage is not ⁓ only a Christian idea.

Jim Salmon (13:24)
for sure. Yeah, that's the one of the five pillars of Islam.

GOBBA GOOL (13:26)
Right.

You literally have to make your pilgrimage to Mecca if you want a sh shot at being saved, right? So ⁓ there's also secular pilgrimage. It's kind of bled its yeah, or even if you think about what pilgrimage

Jim Salmon (13:30)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

It's like Burning Man.

GOBBA GOOL (13:48)
is. Is this like, you know, spiritual travel to a distant place that is supposed to have some sort of ⁓ religious spiritual significance

Jim Salmon (14:00)
I think our parents did that with the Grateful Dead, right? Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (14:03)
Ye yeah. Yes.

So it was there's people I think people still do this with like fish concerts. Like when they were you really when they when they go on tour. When they go on tour, people will pilgrimage around with them.

Jim Salmon (14:11)
I was just thinking fish, yeah, one of the two. Yeah.

Dude, people have seen fish like dozens of times.

GOBBA GOOL (14:21)
Yeah, that summer. Like like yes. I even saw this repeated. This is actually kind of sad. It's complete I wasn't even planning on bringing this up. I saw a Reddit thread that was about debt, and somebody was like, ⁓ yeah, they were just people were just like spilling the beans on their own terrible spending habits. And they were like, yeah, I went to like twenty thousand dollars in debt to like follow Taylor Swift on tour. ⁓ no

Jim Salmon (14:23)
Yeah, exactly.

⁓ gosh. Dude, you know

what the worst part is twenty thousand dollars in debt following Taylor Swift probably wasn't even the full tour. That was probably like ten stops. Yeah. Gosh. I know that because of my wife, by the way. So

GOBBA GOOL (14:58)
Probably. So I mean people make pilgrimages

to sports stadiums, you know, maybe you're raised a Dodgers fan, but you live in Chicago and you're just dogged on your whole life and then one day you get to go out to LA, right? And you're like there, I've made the pilgrimage home. And what do people typically do on these pilgrimages? You buy souvenirs to commemorate the occasion.

Jim Salmon (15:15)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Take pictures,

⁓

GOBBA GOOL (15:26)
Right. If you're Helena,

you take relics back.

Jim Salmon (15:29)
Yeah,

yeah, yeah. You just you take their stuff and bring it back with you. Yeah. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (15:31)
Yeah, yeah.

Kind of got that out of the way. There's some people, there's some guys at I think it is Boston College. It's ⁓ Jeffrey Blokel and Andre Bruillette. They one of them's a pilo philosophy professor, and ⁓ that's ⁓ that's Jeffrey Blokel. And then Andre Bruillette's actually an ex Jesuit, ⁓ and he's a professor of theology. They wrote a book.

Jim Salmon (15:55)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (16:04)
Relatively recent. It's called Pilgrimage a Spiritual Practice, a handbook for teachers, wayfarers, and guides. It I think it is interesting. the cover is not enticing. So, ⁓ if you are someone who judges books by the cover, just ⁓

Jim Salmon (16:08)
Hmm.

That's cool.

What

what's here, send me a picture, I'll put it online for all of our viewers.

GOBBA GOOL (16:27)
It's it's yeah, just the covers up now. Boop. There it is. See it? Yeah. Do you wanna do you do you wanna pick up that book? I didn't I almost didn't click on it when I was doing my research. I was like, there's no way that has anything valuable. The books that I typically read all have like some old patristic iconography or something on the cover. And I'm like, yeah, I believe that. Some old painting.

Jim Salmon (16:34)
wa wha not very enticing for sure.

GOBBA GOOL (16:57)
Jeffrey Blokel. Yeah. Anyway, so Brulette has this quote, and he says, While pilgrimage has deep resonances with the Christian ethos and has a long history in Christianity, it never became a religious obligation. Pilgrimages nevertheless have been part of the fabric of Christianity in a great variety of shapes and forms to the present day.

So it's never an obligation to take a pilgrimage, right? We are never required to. but even in within the Christian sphere, pilgrimage has and I don't know if I'm making a jump here. I don't think I am, but we even look at the pilgrimages of the old testament.

Jim Salmon (17:32)
Right.

GOBBA GOOL (17:53)
as like type oli ty and then compare it ⁓ typologically to Jesus and different journeys there, right? So the

Jim Salmon (17:53)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (18:05)
That that typological comparison is you know, it's the symbol of foreshadowing of greater realities coming. And so Brulette goes on and he points out the importance of the journey in Christianity. He mentions Abraham is kind of sent on a pilgrimage, the Hebrews are sent on a pilgrimage.

Jim Salmon (18:12)
Mm-hmm.

They're kind of

on a constant pilgrimage, honestly. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (18:28)
Well, so

that's where I think the definition of pilgrimage is up in the air and it's almost to sound postmodern. What's true for you is true for you. So you could even say that Jesus sent the seventy two out on a pilgrimage.

Jim Salmon (18:34)
Okay.

Ooh, okay, okay.

GOBBA GOOL (18:50)
Paul went on a pilgrimage. Now here's the the the thing. Here's the thing. We as evangelicals, we attach mission to those, don't we? And because you're evangelical, whether you like it or not. You're evangelical. So you at yeah, you attach mission to it. But we gotta remember who wrote this. It's a Jesuit priest.

Jim Salmon (18:51)
Hm.

I do, personally, yeah.

I know.

Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (19:16)
Which is interesting 'cause you'd think he would have some understanding of mission, but

Jim Salmon (19:19)
Well

ex Jesuit, right?

GOBBA GOOL (19:22)
I think he's still Catholic. Maybe not. Yeah, but like did he leave the Jesuit order?

Jim Salmon (19:24)
You literally said he was an ex Jesuit priest.

GOBBA GOOL (19:32)
I don't know. ⁓ but they read them more as journeys, right? And he goes on to talk about the very nature of Christianity. And he says this. He says Christians are inherently teleologically pilgrims.

Jim Salmon (19:49)
Okay, that's I I think I'd agree with that. Focus on the t on the telos.

GOBBA GOOL (19:51)
And my dad beah,

before my dad yells at me for using seminary words, all that means is that we are sort of created. Our purpose is to be pilgrims. Quite never arriving or never quite arriving.

Jim Salmon (20:05)
Yes.

Well, we're we're created for the telos, which is the end, which of course is Christ, but on in this stage of existence, we are pilgrims, but we are pilgrims seeking an end that we will eventually arrive at. So we're not perpetually pilgrims, but we are i for every moment in this living, breathing life, unless Christ returns before we die, we're pilgrims.

GOBBA GOOL (20:36)
Perfect segue into my next quote. This is Victor Turner in his nineteen seventy eight pilgrimage and Chris Image in Pilgrim and Pilgrimage in Christian culture. He says Pilgrimage was the great liminal experience of the religious life. If mysticism is an interior pilgrimage, pilgrimage is an exteriorized mysticism. I know.

Jim Salmon (20:59)
That is such a good quote. Gosh

dang it. That is a really good quote.

GOBBA GOOL (21:01)
And so once again, I will

define my words. Liminal means occupying a position at or being on both sides of.

Jim Salmon (21:09)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's really interesting. See, ⁓ I I wanna ask this, but I almost want to ask it and then answer it because I feel like I already have an opinion. Because pilgrimage was huge in the old testament because the pilgrimage was it was the temple, like every practicing.

GOBBA GOOL (21:12)
So once again, this this theme, right?

Jim Salmon (21:33)
like God fearer needed to be at the temple for a number of like religious festivals and holidays and to make sacrifices and things like that. So like like I the question I want to ask is is the pilgrim is the pilgrimage more about the journey or the destination? But I think on the practical level, it is very much the destination. But then on like the

Maybe what Jesus has revealed as the covenants have unfolded, maybe it's also about the journey. So I don't know.

GOBBA GOOL (22:07)
I think there's two ways to look at pilgrimage ultimately. And I will be frank, because I'm I'm no longer Taylor, I'm frank. I'll be I'll be blunt and say I think there's really a correct healthy way to look at pilgrimage, and I think there's an unhealthy way. And I think for the former of i

Jim Salmon (22:26)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (22:36)
kind of thinking through the journey, that's the healthy way.

Jim Salmon (22:39)
Mm-hmm.

Interesting. Okay. I honestly thinking of you as the flagship Baptist boy, I thought you were gonna say the destination, destination driven pilgrimage is the goal because we want we want results.

GOBBA GOOL (22:57)
I'm detaching ⁓ what I would say is the evangelical work. Okay, all right. I didn't I wasn't gonna brag on on this, but do you guys remember Bebington's quadrilateral? Do you wanna ask who I spent all weekend hanging out with? Bebington.

Jim Salmon (23:04)
Yeah.

Yes.

Bevington?

GOBBA GOOL (23:20)
Yeah, dude, it was

Jim Salmon (23:21)
It was it really?

GOBBA GOOL (23:21)
it was a huge blessing. I he is unbelievably kind and him and I just became fast friends. We just talked about everything from like ⁓ Anselm to the Crusades to we were just chit-chatting and he he was like, You just love church history. I was like, I do, I do. And he and he is like, This is rare. I I enjoy this, but anyway, so Bebington

Came up with the quadrilateral, which is kind of this like standard go-to definition for ⁓ how to determine what an evangelical is. And there's Biblicism, crucicentricism, ⁓ cruciocentricism, sorry, con conversionism, and activism. And that activism piece is a very important part of evangelical ⁓ ethos.

And that's why when you were like, I don't know, does Jesus sending out the 72 count as a pilgrimage? Not for an evangelical. Because pilgrimage is well, it depends how you define pilgrimage, all right? So it doesn't count as a pilgrimage if if pilgrimage is only a personal growth sort of journey.

Jim Salmon (24:30)
Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (24:41)
And that's that's what people and that's and then it's, you know, the destination. What am I going what am I pilgrimaging to? Whereas Jesus sending out the seventy two for the evangelical, that purpose is yes, you will grow, but the ultimate purpose is in where you're going to land or a and what you're going to do when you get there.

Jim Salmon (25:02)
What's your what you're doing?

Right.

GOBBA GOOL (25:06)
So I I've been really actually racking my brain. I'll process out loud with all of you guys lately. So ⁓ another guy, if you remember our Charles Spurgeon series, the book I plugged, ⁓ Peter Morden was at this conference. Every listener should have just came to the Andrew Fuller conference and you would have been as equally blessed as I was just getting to hang out with these guys. So Peter Morden shared a little nursery rhyme and he said, Mary had a little lamb and it was quite the happy sheep.

But it became a Baptist and then died from lack of sleep.

Jim Salmon (25:39)
Hm. ⁓ That's funny.

GOBBA GOOL (25:42)
And and the idea is that evangelicals are just always like, what can I do? What can I do? What can I do? And there's something in Yeah. And there's something admirable about it and also like very dangerous. And that's why everybody that we talk about in the Great Awakening series, like all of them almost all of them neglect their families for the sake of the gospel.

Jim Salmon (25:48)
Yeah, they're Americans. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Gosh, dang it. Yeah. I bet Schleiermacher loved his wife, dude. I don't know, I'm not I'm not gonna stand on that. Carry on, carry on.

GOBBA GOOL (26:10)
Mm.

Yeah, once you look into that.

Yeah. Thanks thanks. Do an episode on Schleiermacher. Have fun with that. So that's sort of we're going to revisit this, this difference. How are we doing on time? We're doing great. We're gonna revisit this idea. We're gonna talk a lot about what a pilgrimage is. We're gonna talk a lot about it. Yes.

Jim Salmon (26:35)
We're great. We're great. We got so much time.

Can I can I share a thought? Can I share a thought?

I I think you can prove me wrong. This is my my current gut feeling. I don't know if pilgrimage is a like biblical. Okay, well, I'm not saying it's unbiblical. I don't think that a pilgrimage is like a biblical

concept. I almost feel like it's like a sociological concept. Like it's I think it's a thing that people tend to do as religious practitioners who are seeking out the sacred and the holy and of course like we said the the personal growth and stuff. 'Cause it's like Jesus went on a pilgrimage, Jesus went spent forty days in the desert. Like that is, I would say, for sure a pilgrimage, especially as far as like the inward search goes.

GOBBA GOOL (27:39)
Yeah,

so you're already this is why this is actually a fascinating conversation because Jesus did not take a pilgrimage to the desert in the sense of he's going to visit something. It depends how you are defining pilgrimage. So pil pilgrimage is in one sense of the definition a very it's a very strong it doesn't necessarily have to.

Jim Salmon (27:40)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Right, right.

It needs a destination.

Okay.

GOBBA GOOL (28:05)
And I promise I'm about to lead into a source that proves this. But pilgrimage, if it does have Jesus did take pilgrimages, it's biblical in the sense that it's when Jesus would went to Jerusalem, right? For the feasts, that was a pilgrimage in that standard definition. But as you just said, Jesus also took a pilgrimage in the desert. Except

Jim Salmon (28:10)
Okay. Okay.

GOBBA GOOL (28:36)
Which which pilgrimage is true? What do we mean when we say pilgrimage? And I think this is why there's a little misunderstanding. Evangelicals simultaneously love pilgrimages, but also completely reject them. They bear no religious significance to them, but they sign up in droves to go to the Holy Land, correct?

Jim Salmon (28:54)
Yes.

No,

but I I think that itself is religious significance. It's not it's not salvific, but it is I mean and and even a Catholic would say that their pilgrimage is not salvific, but they still want to travel to St. Peter's Basilica. I I'm talking modern, bro.

GOBBA GOOL (29:04)
It doesn't bear any ⁓ soteriological or yeah.

⁓ I have news for you.

I have news for you. ⁓ I do. I have a whole article, buddy. ⁓ no, that's at the end. Right now we're gonna talk about the ⁓ You know what? Fine, we'll go to Catholics first. I'm flexible. So do you know what EWTN is?

Jim Salmon (29:23)
All right, okay. Let's see what you got.

All right, hit me, hit me.

Mm-hmm.

yeah, it's like a Catholic ⁓ website or something. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (29:45)
It's like the Catholic news. I was

horrified to learn about this. This is from an article published in 2025. And the title of the article is How to Obtain a Plenary Indulgence During the 2025 Jubilee.

Jim Salmon (29:50)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

GOBBA GOOL (30:08)
Quote The Vatican issued a decree on Monday outlining the many ways Catholics can obtain a plenary indulgence during the twenty twenty five Jubilee year. The decree signed on May 13th by Cardinal Angelo de Donatis Funny name. Donatis, not Donatist. Yeah. The new head of the Apostolic Penitentiary.

Jim Salmon (30:28)
Say anything.

GOBBA GOOL (30:32)
Provides Catholics with the opportunity to gain indulgence indulgences by making pilgrimages, prayerful visits to specific churches, or by practicing works of mercy during the holy year. And then I'll end the quote here. A plenary indulgence is a grace granted by the Catholic Church through the merits of Jesus Christ to remove the temporal punishments due to sin. Now it does say this. I'm going to throw our Roman listeners a bone.

Jim Salmon (30:45)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (31:02)
The indulgence applies to sins already forgiven. A plenary indulgence cleanses the soul as if the person had just been baptized.

Jim Salmon (31:13)
Yeah, that makes sense. I mean

GOBBA GOOL (31:15)
Then I wanna read I

wanna read the next one. Plenary indulgences obtained during the Jubilee year can also be applied to souls in purgatory with the possibility of obtaining two plenary indulgences for the deceased in one day, according to the app

Jim Salmon (31:27)
Two for the price of one.

Here's the thing. Here's the thing. I get the sense. This is okay. This is my my ⁓ my my soapbox about stuff like this. Cause I I do think that stuff sounds very strange. Here's the thing: the blessing of the Catholic Church is its history, and the curse of the Catholic Church. What is it, Taylor?

GOBBA GOOL (31:51)
It's history.

Jim Salmon (31:52)
Is

its history. Yes. I think that the Catholic Church has a difficulty contending with all of the years of h because the thing is if you're a Protestant, like if I if I'm going to like some Baptist church and I'm like, you know, I think that you know, I think you know, Mary ⁓

I think Mary's last name was Simmons. I don't know. Like whatever. Like you can just say something and start a new thing and just go for it. And as long as you have old pleasant ladies who want to sign over their social security to to, you know, keep your church going, you'll be fine. The Catholic Church kinda has to contend with all of its history. And I think that creates for some awkward stuff like this. So I it's weird, but I'm I'm not overly stressed about it. I don't know.

GOBBA GOOL (32:40)
I'm not overly stressed about it either. I think there's something kind of sweet about like this this is an example of an intentional pilgrimage. I do believe it's not accomplishing the things that they want. But basically, if you made a pilgrimage to Rome in twenty twenty five, if you visited ⁓ and prayed, this is what's nice about it, right? It's about go to this place and pray.

Jim Salmon (33:05)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (33:06)
Go

have a moment with Jesus in this historically significant basilica. And they outloan Yes, Rome's Basilica of the Holy Cross in Jerusalem, Basilica of St. Loris outside the walls, Basilica of St. Tebastian, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, the Roman catacombs. ⁓

Jim Salmon (33:11)
Yeah, it's supposed to be a blessing. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (33:25)
And ⁓ they they even said, Hey and go visit you can also you can also go visit ⁓ these that are great female saints. And then the the works of mercy is

Jim Salmon (33:33)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (33:38)
You know, ⁓ visiting prisoners, spending time with lonely elderly people, aiding the sick or disabled, and helping those who are in need as instances to obtain an indulgence. So their understanding of indulgence, I think at best we could like it's ⁓ sanctifying work is is the way we would ⁓ generously interpret that. So

Jim Salmon (33:55)
Sure. Yeah.

I think they've

pretty far distanced themselves from the indulgence definition of of of the reformer era, for sure.

GOBBA GOOL (34:05)
Correct. I do

want to clarify these indulgences are not remotely the same as what was happening in the crusades. Where they were saying go be a warrior and fight for Christ and then the Pope's gonna send you to heaven. This is not this is

Jim Salmon (34:17)
Mm-hmm.

Right. Right. Yes. Very different.

GOBBA GOOL (34:30)
This is not it

Jim Salmon (34:30)
Very different.

GOBBA GOOL (34:31)
and even this is not salvific, right? It's it's this idea of doing good works grants a blessing. And I think Protestants get kind of weird about that. John MacArthur though. Not as much. Love that. I know. Well, dude, that's the thing. Christ calls us to obey and we don't want to be anti-nomians, right? We don't wanna be against we don't want to be against the law.

Jim Salmon (34:39)
Mm-hmm.

Surprising. Yeah.

Exactly.

Mm-hmm, sure.

GOBBA GOOL (34:55)
And and bas

yes, so obedience plays a big factor in Protestantism, at least it should, and it plays a major factor in Catholicism. So that's kind of like a modern pilgrimage doing doing something for you. Now I don't know what the other side of the modern pilgrimages do for ⁓ the evangelicals that are booking tours to Israel.

Jim Salmon (35:10)
Sure, sure, sure.

Let's not forget, these are also people who are going to get baptized in the Jordan River. They're literally participating in a sacrament, ⁓ usually just for fun, for vibes.

GOBBA GOOL (35:26)
Yeah, that one.

Yeah s I know,

they've already been baptized.

Jim Salmon (35:34)
Those are religious experiences. Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (35:38)
Do that guys. Please don't do that.

Jim Salmon (35:40)
And I think it

it speaks to ⁓ I think it speaks to the fact that as Protestants we don't really have religious 'cause like I I I think there's something like if you're a Catholic, you can go to a beautiful cathedral that's just like in your state just to to to have mass there and like experience something with relevant local historical significance to you and that represents the presence of the Catholic Church in your area.

Protestants can't do that. Like not in the same way. What you're gonna go to you're gonna go to the Baptist headquarters, you're gonna go to, you know, ⁓ a seminary campus. Like like there's not the same thing. Like I think that there is something I think there is something kind of intuitive about pilgrimage. Like I think we want that. We want the sacred. And I think Catholics connect with that. I think Protestants wrestle with that. We kinda make stuff sacred.

GOBBA GOOL (36:33)
You are

completely ruining the ⁓ flow of the episode that I was gonna do. So it's fine. I'm pivoting. Yeah, okay, fine. We're literally like I had at the end was the I yeah, I okay. So here is my answer to that is

Jim Salmon (36:49)
You leave room for me to talk, I'm gonna talk. I'm sorry. Like I

GOBBA GOOL (37:00)
I'm going to just read what Martin Luther says. This is Martin Luther works, volume thirty-one, page one ninety-eight. Those who make pilgrimages do so for many reasons. Very seldom for legitimate ones. The first reason for making pilgrimages is the most comp very Martin Luther. I heard that chuckle. That's just so Martin Luther. That's him, man. Just you want to talk about like a hater, dude? Martin Luther is like the ch

Jim Salmon (37:17)
I thought it was funny. It was funny. Most of them stupid.

Yeah. Luther and Jerome just out up in heaven

fist fighting.

GOBBA GOOL (37:30)
No, maybe

they agree. I don't know. Maybe they like team up with each other against everyone else. Yeah. Okay. The first reason for making pilgrimage is the most common of all. The curiosity to see and hear strange and unknown things. The levity proceeds from a loathing for and boredom with the worship services, which have been neglected in the pilgrim's own church. Otherwise, one would find incomparably better indulgences at home than all the other places put together.

Jim Salmon (37:35)
Maybe now they do, yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (37:59)
Furthermore, he would be closer to Christ and the saints if he were not so foolish as to prefer sticks and stones to the poor and his neighbors whom he should serve out of love, and he would be closer to Christ also if he were to provide for his own family.

Jim Salmon (38:14)
Yeah, I mean honestly I don't hate that. I don't hate that.

GOBBA GOOL (38:16)
Yeah, s a

and Calvin kind of comes along and calls it idolatry. So that's where that is my answer to what you said two minutes ago. Y yes, everyone longs for religious experiences in the same way everybody longs to worship things, but it doesn't mean that's a good thing. So pilgrimages are, I think, can be perverted.

Jim Salmon (38:21)
Mm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Right, right.

GOBBA GOOL (38:46)
significantly. I think I I can't believe I'm gonna say this on air. I think what Catholics are doing during the twenty twenty five year of Jubilee, going and visiting these places, praying, going out of their way, at least what they should have been doing, right? According to the going out of their way to visit visit prisons, visit hospitals, and and kind of share the love of Christ, that is so much better

than a Baptist booking an all expenses paid trip to Israel, doing the air conditioned tour bus thing, and then going down to the Jordan and getting baptized again.

Jim Salmon (39:28)
Yeah, I mean, I'm gonna say yes and no, honestly. Cause here's the thing. ⁓ here's the thing. I'm I'm not a catcher, I'm a centrist. You go one way, I go the other. I'm looking for equilibrium. Big bow bow, yeah. ⁓ The people who go on pilgrimages are usually doing so instead of ⁓ you know d Knott's berry farms.

GOBBA GOOL (39:29)
It it's so much You're such a contrarian.

Boom poo choop chop chop chop.

Jim Salmon (39:59)
Like so they're so yeah, like you I think you could apply a lot of the stuff that Luther said, like, you know, there's ⁓ resentment for the mundane, they're looking for a new experience, but I think there's something kind of beautiful about someone who instead of going to ⁓ LA to eat a eighteen dollar burrito, decides they wanna go to

you know, a beautiful cathedral to pray and to make alms and talk to clergy and and and participate in a mass. Like, there's a religious affection there that I think is actually really beautiful. And it's not like these people aren't still doing other stuff with their money to travel. I'm just saying, like

GOBBA GOOL (40:42)
Kate Kate John Jonathan Edwards here. So look,

look, look, look. I actually agree with you. I think if you're ranking things I'm talking about ranking pilgrimages. You're ranking a pilgrimage compared to like a gluttonous like trip trip to Disney World. Like

Jim Salmon (40:52)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Well,

dude, it's like it it seems silly to be like, you wanna go and pray at a church a thousand miles away instead of just helping this homeless guy who's starving to death? And it's like, I can do both, bro. Like, that's such a silly, like reductive argument. Like, we can do both.

GOBBA GOOL (41:20)
Yeah. Okay, but why why get

baptized again?

Jim Salmon (41:27)
No, I don't think you should do that. That's bad sacramentology. But that's also that's your fault as a Baptist, I think. You guys don't care about baptism. In my denomination, if you did that, stoned.

GOBBA GOOL (41:28)
Than

Wow.

You're in the SBC!

Jim Salmon (41:41)
Not only in no I'm just I'm a double agent brother. They don't know me.

GOBBA GOOL (41:44)
No you ⁓ Look, dude, don't

be going after Baptists for ba yeah, alright, maybe I'll maybe I'll own it.

Jim Salmon (41:52)
I love Baptists. I love Baptists.

I married a Baptist, but man, they get they get baptized like it's like it's ⁓ collecting stamps on their passport. That's true. That's true.

GOBBA GOOL (42:01)
Not all Baptists. So I would tell I would tell my youth

kids that like I watched get baptized after VBS and then they like go to summer camp and they're like, I should get baptized again. And I'm like, no, you shouldn't.

Jim Salmon (42:13)
And again, why do they get baptized? It's because they they want to experience religious religious fervor. They want to do something with spiritual significance, which I would say you have that. Take the Lord's Supper more than three times a year, and you might experience something. I sound like a reformer, but not a Baptist.

GOBBA GOOL (42:21)
Yeah.

Yeah, right. You sound like Luther. Yeah.

I look, man, I agree, I agree, I agree. I just think we need to be careful with o over spiritualizing things. And please, please do not get baptized again. Please. Please.

Jim Salmon (42:40)
Of course.

Yeah.

Talk to your pastor, but yeah, it's it it just it dilutes the whole significance of it. ⁓ I don't

GOBBA GOOL (42:52)
Right.

Yes.

Jim Salmon (42:58)
That's kind of strange. There there I'm sure there are people who are listening who are like, the Bible doesn't say you can't get baptized again. I mean, I think Taylor and I would even say we have different reasons for being opposed to it. I think that baptism is ⁓ a a mark of an ongoing covenant. So to be baptized again would kind of be like getting married to your wife again. I get people renew their vows. I think renewing the vows is kind of what you do when you take the Lord's Supper. So getting baptized again is kind of like

I don't know, throwing throwing your kid a a a first a one year birthday party when they're like twelve? Like

GOBBA GOOL (43:33)
Why would I disagree with anything you're saying?

I agree 100%. Shh Shut up, John Steven. I agree 100%. Anyway, so that was that was Luth. This episode's got a lot more wild than I thought it would be. Anyway, ⁓ that was Luther on baptism. I tried to find Calvin's quote. This

Jim Salmon (43:41)
I I'm never I'm never sure. I'm never sure. I don't know.

Okay, all right.

It's good, it's good.

GOBBA GOOL (44:02)
Yeah, think these these kinds of episodes you just gotta like pick your poison and and yeah, it's like yes, gonna do battle doo doo. Yeah. Yeah. So ⁓ Martin Luther said that. Calvin wasn't a big fan. Makes a lot of sense because what medieval pilgrimage had evolved into, if you listen to the Saint Jerome episode, he was the prototype for a lot of this stuff. so

Jim Salmon (44:06)
It's jazz, baby, it's jazz.

Yes.

GOBBA GOOL (44:31)
Medieval pilgrimage had really evolved into something unhealthy. Which ⁓ what's the there's there's like there's like the Catholics that I don't even know if they're Catholic. I won't even make you guys claim them, you guys being Catholics. It's like whatever weird syncretistic practices are happening in Rome. ⁓ or in Mexico, sorry.

And they like travel to this statue and they all like kiss it.

Jim Salmon (45:04)
I don't know what you're I'll I'm gonna look that up. That sounds interesting. I know Mex Mexican Catholics are very big on pilgrimages though. I do I do know that.

GOBBA GOOL (45:06)
Yeah, so that

Yeah, and they

Yeah, so that is a modern example of what they were doing. So you're like going to these places seeking miracles. They actually believed that ⁓ the power of the saint that they were praying to was stronger where they were buried. Which is like that is so not Christian, right? So Anthony Ball wrote this. There's ⁓

Jim Salmon (45:34)
Yeah.

That's that's a little yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (45:40)
He's got some fancy pants position in the Catholic Church right now, which I can't remember what it is, but he says this. ⁓ it was a little paper published by Westminster Abbey in 2023. He says, The flourishing of pilgrimage in medieval times was founded on the power attributed to relics and the internet intercession of the saints, adding another dimension to the significance of the practice.

Pilgrims believed that physical proximity to the saint who was present in the relic made their prayers for themselves or a loved one more effective.

Jim Salmon (46:13)
Yes.

Well, it's like the story we told ⁓ a few weeks back about the our our Saints That Aren't Human episode, the

the Saint Guyfort, which was the dog folk folk saint. Like the women, because Guinefort was seen as a protector of sick children, ⁓ women with sick or dying infants would go to that site and then pray and make intercession. So yeah, it's like this idea of this thing is holy, but it's only here. So I have to go here to intercede and yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (46:27)
Yeah.

Yeah,

which I think now you're moving into polytheism borderline.

Jim Salmon (46:59)
I don't know if I would go that far, but I can definitely see how problematic it would be to ⁓

Yeah, I don't know, to to depend on I mean, but but again, it's it's hard because this is an old testament thing. People would go to the temple for this stuff all the time. But like we would both agree, a good typological understanding of the temple would say, We have the Holy Spirit. The the holiest thing in the world is glowing inside the chests of all believers. We don't need to go to, you know, Tepeyak Hill in ⁓

GOBBA GOOL (47:26)
Yes.

Jim Salmon (47:33)
Mexico City to pray to where a v a vision of Mary appeared. Yeah, I found it. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (47:35)
Is that where it is? You f you found ⁓ yeah, that's another

thing. People make pilgrimages to just places where Marian apparitions happen.

Jim Salmon (47:45)
Mm, and that's a huge and honestly I I'm looking at it right now. Twelve to thirteen million pilgrims travel to ⁓ the Basilica of Guadalupe, ⁓ every year. And I've actually been there and it's pretty dope, even though I wasn't making pilgrimage, I was just being a tourist. ⁓

GOBBA GOOL (47:54)
Which

Yeah. No, you were making

pilgrimage. That's why your mother in law was so offended. Mio why? Yeah.

Jim Salmon (48:04)
She was not happy about that. Yeah.

We had to be a little scant about the details of that trip. Mostly because of the Catholic stuff.

GOBBA GOOL (48:12)
Yeah. So Yeah.

So let me let me move into the last thing I have, which is ⁓ an Orthodox understanding. Believe it or not,

Jim Salmon (48:28)
Well, they can't do

pilgrimages 'cause all their stuff's in Russia. It's too cold. Is that historically accurate?

GOBBA GOOL (48:33)
They do do pil So

there's a book called The Way of a Pilgrim. I'm curious if any of you listeners have heard of this. I had not I have not heard of it until now. You would have it, you little ⁓ you little mystic. You would. But it's great. So I I I have read about half of it quickly, and I love it.

Jim Salmon (48:42)
Think I have that.

Shout out to my friend Jacob Lewis. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (49:02)
I just love it. So it was originally published in 1884, translated into English in 1930. And it is ⁓ we we don't even know if it's a real story or if it's just sort of this fictitious kind of conversational thing. Yeah, we don't know. But essentially ⁓ you have this guy who grows

Jim Salmon (49:22)
Like an allegory almost, yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (49:31)
Increasingly maybe anxious, unsure about his faith, and he wants to find answers. And so he sets out on a pilgrimage. And this is why I made such a big fuss at the beginning of the episode about how are you defining pilgrimage? Because he's not going to a specific place.

He's going inside, baby. He's traveling around. He's having conversations. So this is in the first, there's four, there's four journeys that it outlines. And this is in the first one. So he gets he talks to this ⁓ this this priest at a ⁓ at a monastery, and that the priests are called Batyushka. So he says this quote Well, you see, Batyushka, about a year ago, while at liturgy, I heard the words of the apostle extorting men to pray unceasingly.

Jim Salmon (50:17)
Mm.

GOBBA GOOL (50:27)
Unable to understand this, I began to read the Bible. There, in several different places, I also encountered this same divine instruction that we must pray unceasingly, always and in all places, not only while occupied with all manner of activity, not only when we are awake, but even while we sleep. I sleep, but my heart is awake. He quotes Song of Songs 5-2. This surprised me, and I found myself unable to understand this could be done.

Jim Salmon (50:51)
Mm.

GOBBA GOOL (50:56)
and by what means it could be achieved, a burning desire and curiosity arose in me, and my thoughts dwelt on it day and night. So I began to visit here's him saying, essentially saying I went on a pilgrimage.

I began to visit many different churches and to listen to sermons that spoke about prayer, yet no matter how many sermons I heard, not one of them provided me with an explanation of how to pray unceasingly. They spoke only of how to prepare oneself for praying, or the fruits of prayer, and so on, but they did not teach one how to pray unceasingly, and what is the nature of this sort of prayer?

Jim Salmon (51:09)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (51:31)
I frequently read the Bible to verify what I heard, but I have not yet found the knowledge I seek. I am not at peace with myself, and I'm still quite puzzled by all of this. End quote. Isn't that awesome? ⁓ dude!

Jim Salmon (51:42)
Mm. Yeah.

That's really good. That's really and it's

and I it's fascinating that you brought up that quote earlier that pilgrimage that a physical pilgrimage is basically ⁓ an external

like mysticism because the inverse is also true. Mysticism is an internal pilgrimage. And when you read stuff like that, but also when you read like the Counter Reformers, like Teresa of Avila, like Interior Castle, it's all about like your pilgrimage is a journey inward into your own soul where you will experience and meet Christ.

GOBBA GOOL (52:11)
Yeah.

And here's where this really won my little Baptist heart over. Because I'm just thinking, like, I I I was willing to put down the like activism part, right? I was willing to put down the mission and just sort of process this. But in the second journey, this guy

Jim Salmon (52:27)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (52:42)
is now so so his solution sorry sorry before i tell you what happens in the second journey his solution so this this but yushka works with him and they say why don't you just start reciting constantly to yourself the jesus prayer

If you're like me, you had no idea what the Jesus prayer was until I researched this episode. Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. And so in some traditions, they actually say this summarizes the entire Bible. These few words. This is it. And so his solution was to meditate on this day and night until his dreams became saturated with it.

Jim Salmon (53:18)
Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (53:27)
Just Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. And and so you're like, okay, he's making this like internal transformation. This is all good. He's coming to peace with the things he sought. And then you're like, but what? To what end? And this is where he won me over, in the second journey.

He ends up staying while he's on these pilgrimages. He ends up staying at this farm in the middle of nowhere on some land next to another guy, becomes friends with him, and the guy starts to share, ⁓ I had these struggles with alcoholism and and he kinda he kind of explains how his solution to his sin was to white knuckle it.

Jim Salmon (54:16)
Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (54:16)
He basically removed himself from society and lived the life of a hermit so that he's no longer tempted. And our guy from the way of a pilgrim says, No, no, no. Our hearts must be transformed. And he says, Let me tell you how I transformed my heart. Or rather, rather, instead of let me tell you how I did it, more like, Let me tell you how the Lord transformed my heart.

Jim Salmon (54:31)
Hm.

Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (54:42)
And he took him and he t he showed him the scriptures of kind of, you know, this idea of praying unceasingly. And now he's getting this guy to f to meditate on the Jesus prayer. So there's your activism. There's your evangel evangelical like little

Jim Salmon (54:53)
Yeah. Yeah.

You're

you're you're building the church around this call to seek to seek inward.

GOBBA GOOL (55:03)
Yes,

so the pilgrimage had a ultimate purpose. But the purpose of the pilgrimage was to transform yourself. However, the ultimate purpose of the pilgrimage led into building the church.

Jim Salmon (55:19)
Mm-hmm. I'm gonna say one more thing that is hopefully my last contrarian thought. And I I no no no listen, listen, listen, listen, listen. I'm saying I love all of that. And I again like I

GOBBA GOOL (55:26)
What wha how are you possibly disagreeing?

This is right up your

alley, Saint Bernard boy.

Jim Salmon (55:36)
No, no, no, no. I I love it. And that is so good. And like I said, that book was very formative to a very good friend of mine who is a catechumen in the Orthodox Church right now. Very I've been very blessed by the Jesus prayer in my life. I love that. It's wonderful. My only push and this is the s babiest of pushbacks. And it literally is born out of the fact that I have good, good friends who have gone on Protestants who have gone on pilgrimages, like the ⁓ the the

San the Camino Santiago in Spain, like a very historical pilgrimage. And I would only the only thing I would add is that as much as I believe in the writings of the beautiful mystics of many, many traditions that speak of the ultimate pilgrimage being one inward, the concern is

GOBBA GOOL (56:08)
Yes.

Jim Salmon (56:27)
Is that if we only focus on that, then we can we can wade into Gnosticism and we can say it's all about this kind of like intellectual, spiritualized thing. But we're human bodies. And human bodies, when we put them on p when you walk for 20 miles a day and are focused on thinking of good godly things, and you're on that pilgrimage where you're actually putting your human, God-given, God-breathed body into that.

like scenario there is something spiritual that happens in that process as you're of course praying and doing all that stuff. So I would just say like I don't think I do think that there is room for a physical embodied pilgrimage. Because my only fear is that if we completely disembody it then we become too Gnostic and we say no the only pilgrimage is what happens down here. I think it's it can be both.

GOBBA GOOL (57:05)
Mm-hmm.

Well you are you're

effectively talking we don't talk a lot about Orthodox on the show because we just haven't the history hasn't we haven't went there yet. But that's a f I think a few of them do. Shout out to the Ortho Bros that like us. ⁓ you're talking about the issue that everyone has with the Orthodox Church, even within themselves of hey, you just don't want to get so mystical you become a Gnostic.

Jim Salmon (57:29)
No.

And Orthodox people don't listen to us.

GOBBA GOOL (57:51)
So look, man, it's the we're landing the plane, seats and trade tables upright position. The the the the crew's gonna come by and pick. Yes, exactly. So yes. So all that to say, I don't necessarily think there is harm in taking a physical pilgrimage. I think it's a I think it's actually, as you pointed out, okay, what do you want to spend your money on?

Jim Salmon (57:58)
Flight attendant will be coming down with a trash can to, you know, collect receptacles.

GOBBA GOOL (58:17)
You're gonna take a trip out to LA, visit SeaWorld, Disneyland, eat as many calories as you possibly can. Maybe go check check out a show, stop at the sphere on your way back. Like, you wanna spend your money on that? Or do you wanna spend your money and go save up and go see where take your family and be like, guys, this is where Jesus was resurrected? Like this this is where it was. This verifiably, this is as good as we can get. And okay, yeah, that's cool.

Jim Salmon (58:38)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

GOBBA GOOL (58:46)
And a much better use of money than, you know, hedonistic pleasure seeking. However, you have to be very careful about over spiritualizing the location. And notice I said the location. Don't ⁓ you don't over spiritualize to the point you become a Gnostic, but I'm not really worried about Protestants doing that. you know, that's not their

Jim Salmon (58:51)
Sure.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. The concern

is is like we said, the the the Mexican Catholic, you know, archetype who is ⁓ desperate to go to a place because they feel like that place is where they're gonna get a miracle. ⁓ like they can't get it elsewhere. Like that's what Yeah, and that would be like if I had a if I had a person in my church who was like, I'm gonna go to the Holy Land and I'll get baptized, I'd be like, all right, whatever.

GOBBA GOOL (59:22)
Yeah, well they've hyper over spiritualized the location.

Jim Salmon (59:33)
Do what you gotta do. But if someone told me like I'm gonna go to this church and and rub the walls outside so that God will bless my child who's dying of cancer, I'd be like, okay, hold on. We need to have a conversation. Like

GOBBA GOOL (59:34)
Ha ha ha.

We need to have a conversation.

That's so funny. It's not worth the conflict for you to correct that the bad baptism theology. I would probably say something. I'd say I think you should I

Jim Salmon (59:48)
It de it depends, man. I The average person who's

going to Israel to get baptized again is probably not gonna care what I have to say about that.

GOBBA GOOL (59:59)
That's true. I know,

that's true. So look look, I'm curious if any of you have made pilgrimages and w and what your experience was.

Jim Salmon (1:00:06)
I'm very fascinated. I I feel like

with the diversity of the people who w who listen to us, I think we get some really interesting takes. I'd love to hear about So let us know. Yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (1:00:16)
Yeah, absolutely. Well,

thanks for letting me do this one. This one's fun. I do kind of like these smatterings, you know. It's actually good for me to practice not like hyper fixating on one specific thing.

Jim Salmon (1:00:31)
Yeah. And dude, we got to shout out the Orthodox, which never happens. And we got to shout out one of their favorite books. They love The Way of the Pilgrim, dude, so.

GOBBA GOOL (1:00:34)
I know.

That's what

I I was gathering. This is much bigger in spheres that I don't belong in is kind of the vibe I got. I mean there's a whole there's a whole Wikipedia there's a whole Wikipedia article on it. And you can read it on archive. I'm sure it's actually just free in PDF format. Honestly, if you sat down and slammed it out, listeners, you could get through it in like an hour.

Jim Salmon (1:00:45)
Yeah, that's right. This is like their mere Christianity. It's big, man. Yeah.

I there's so much about orthodoxy that I want to research. What what's fascinating to me is like it is a very kind of foreign feeling tradition, but I'm curious about just like how it's interacted with like America. Cause we we we we kind of assume that Catholics have always been here. Catholics came here through immigration. Protestants, of course, were the first to settle here. Orthodox dudes probably immigrated in smaller circles, but

GOBBA GOOL (1:01:25)
Dude, Catholics and Protestants

are like the brothers that are fighting. Like if Jesus is or g you know, the the Trinity is our father, like we're brothers, but the Orthodox are like cousins. Because they they are so different from us. So Rome.

Jim Salmon (1:01:38)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah.

GOBBA GOOL (1:01:51)
And Protestants all claim Augustine, right? We are Western Christians together. And I think that's why we fight so much because we're like, No, that's not how you do it. The Orthodox are like, Well we don't do that at all. So you know

Jim Salmon (1:01:55)
We're Western. We're Western Christians. Mm-hmm. Yes. Right.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And

it's interesting because they like the Orthodox and Catholics, they esteem the same like primary councils. So there are some creedal levels where they are very connected, even in ways that Protestants would be like, Council of Cal, what? Like Council of What? ⁓ but yeah, they're different. And we we see that in the crusades that we talk about, just like the cultural differences have taken them in very different directions. And even today we still see that.

GOBBA GOOL (1:02:34)
Yeah. Absolutely.

Jim Salmon (1:02:36)
⁓

anyways, we're kinda getting off. Hey, tell us, would you go on a pilgrimage? Would you get baptized again? Would you tell Jesus you'd get baptized again? ⁓ would you go

GOBBA GOOL (1:02:47)
That's such a soul care question.

Would you do this thing? Yes. Would you tell Jesus you would do this thing?

Jim Salmon (1:02:54)
Would you would you

Yeah, what's your what's your feeling about? Have you been on a pilgrimage? Would you go on a pilgrimage? ⁓ how do you feel about secular pilgrimages? Yeah, what do you what are your thoughts? We just we said a lot of stuff. And if we said something wrong about your tradition, let us know and we'll we'll add it to our redactions episode we're gonna do next year.

GOBBA GOOL (1:03:13)
No gosh. All right. Hey, thanks guys. Always a pleasure and we will see you next week.

Jim Salmon (1:03:17)
Always a pleasure. We love

you guys. Next week it is. See you later.

GOBBA GOOL (1:03:21)
Bye bye.