139. CHUMP TALK: Is Church Membership Biblical?

It's pretty fascinating to look at the idea of 'church membership' through a historical lens. 

It's fair to assume that the early church probably wasn't having people fill out visitor cards or handing out coffee mugs with the church logo on it. 

So that leaves us in a tricky position: what does it look like to truly 'belong' to a church in this day and age? And what should be required of someone who does choose to commit to their church?

Join us as we esteemed podcasters provide answers that you should honestly just talk to your pastor about. But hey, thanks for listening to us anyway! You ROCK!

Note from John: "Hey, I realized after recording this that I forgot that ELDERS exist! Really embarrassing on my end. I don't believe that pastors should have supreme control, elders are great and biblical assets for checks and balances. Pls don't beat me up in the comments."

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:15

Hey everybody. Welcome to Chump Talk. My name is John Simon and I'm here with my good friend Taylor Chump. Chump Talk. Chump Talk. It's Chump Talk Time. Taylor, what's Chump Talk?

SPEAKER_01 0:26

Chump Talk is where we get to talk about whatever we want. Typically we talk about something that we think is useful to pastors.

SPEAKER_00 0:35

Right.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

And Christians. Christians.

SPEAKER_00 0:38

Church goers.

SPEAKER_01 0:39

Yeah, church.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

The church adjacent. The church the church indifferent.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

So the church and then and maybe the church curious.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

The people that are curious about Jesus, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 0:51

Mm-hmm. The uh yeah, yeah, yeah. The the church the church uh the church, the church. You know? The church Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

That's right. That's what it's uh but it's a chance for us to kind of explore some other things and get outside of our history perspective. And I think ultimately chump talk is uh it's one, it's it's a little easier to prepare for. Very true. And ultimately, we really do the podcast to build up the church. Right. It's our own little We've never actually called it a ministry, which I think is good. I think that's important that we don't it's not a ministry, but it's I I would hope the podcast in general is helpful to this ministry.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

It's like do we want it to be valuable to Christians? Of course. Yes, uh, but also like if someone who wasn't a Christian just listened to it because they thought it was funny and interesting, I wouldn't be like, that's not what it's for, pal. Like this is for the edification of the saints. It's like it's also a podcast. And we also goof off and talk about black Christian metal and uh, you know, tattoos and losing weight. Um That's right.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

How's that going, by the way, bud?

SPEAKER_00 2:12

I haven't stepped on the scale in a while. Dude.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Um so Brandy's ready to kill me because I have continued to lose weight, and she's like, How much have you lost? I'm like, I refuse to get on a scale. But I dude, I lost weight while in Orlando.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

That's impressive.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

Well, it is in it is impressive. Is it also unhealthy? No. It's because I walked and I walked. Right. You see that new Stephen King movie? Longest the long walk, yeah. Yeah, the long the longest yard. The longest walk. That was me. In humidity. Oof.

unknown 2:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

So it sounds like you need a sounds like you need a walking pad, big dog. It wasn't that hard. I just said no, I would say once or twice a day to like extra calories. Yeah. But I still I still ate a lot of good food. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

And you walked.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

And then I walked. So maybe you just need a walking pad. Dude, I think I'm not gonna get a walking pad. I'm ready to lift weights again. But I think uh I think your boy's on track to not be fat for graduation.

SPEAKER_00 3:25

Wow. Okay. Would you have a goal weight?

SPEAKER_01 3:28

No, because I don't even know what I weigh right now. What's your dream weight? 140. No, I would be very I'm thick regardless. Right. It's the bones. I I legitimately like you've I don't know. You see I have broad shoulders, dude. Sure. I'm not a corn fed boy in the sense of height, but I'm a corn fed boy in the sense of width. Corn bread fed boy, you know. Yeah, well that's that's have you not heard the term like oh he's a corn fed boy.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

Yeah, it's like uh it's like yeah, but that's like a that's like a thick dude from Iowa.

SPEAKER_01 4:02

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's not thick as in fat though.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

Like thick as in uh dense. Yes, I'm dense. I'm a dense, I'm a dense fellow. Okay. So well, today for Trump Talk, we have an interesting topic. And and you know, we we do like to kind of get away from the worst transition.

SPEAKER_01 4:27

I'm kind of a big boy. Anyways.

SPEAKER_00 4:32

Like, we can't do nine minutes of banter. We gotta, we gotta get into it, man. This is important, this is a different format. We gotta hit the people, hit them. Hit the people, hit them. Um so we like to do like the non-historical stuff, stuff, stuff that's relevant, stuff that's that's conversational. We also like to hear from you guys what you'd like for us to talk about. And uh we we got a request from a listener. Um I'm I'm spacing on their name, but now I'm actually realizing I don't think they actually sent their name, which I think is perfectly fine. I don't think we should be doxing our listeners. Um But no, he had some really interesting things that he wanted us to kind of get into, and it was as follows. Um he was asking us, is membership church membership biblical? Slash, do we respect the harshly drawn lines too much when we just divide in a you do you boo mindset, l-ol, uh seeking unity in this question, not division or one world church type thing, dot dot dot, allegedly dot dot dot. So, frameworks.cinema, thank you so much for your donation. Thank you so much for your question because this has been something that uh I know I've been shooing on for the past couple of days. Taylor, I imagine you probably been thinking about it for about five minutes. Um so yeah, I I think it's a very interesting conversation. And you know, I served in I was I was a pastor for about four or five if you're generous years. Um and Taylor's been shoot, Taylor's been in ministry for for many moons now. So Taylor, what what what kind of comes to mind for you as you as you think of this idea?

SPEAKER_01 6:23

Well, uh just to summarize, it's it's essentially two questions. Yeah. It's is church membership biblical?

SPEAKER_00 6:29

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

And then slash different question.

SPEAKER_00 6:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:35

Kind kind of like denominational division, how when is it good?

SPEAKER_00 6:41

When is it nitpicky?

SPEAKER_01 6:42

Yeah. So we let's start with with the second question, because I think that leads into the first.

SPEAKER_00 6:51

All right, sure.

SPEAKER_01 6:52

So div denominational division, we are, I think we've talked about in the grand scheme of history, we are still feeling the ramifications of the Reformation. And we have a lot of churches all over the world right now that all have very slightly different doctrinal stances. And now you have churches that and and that they used to like come together under a banner of a denomination and and all that. That still happens, but now you have the rise of the non-denominational churches, which kind of muddies the water even more. And from a uh classification standpoint, having these titles to kind of what your church is is helpful in how you talk about yourself, how you understand yourself. So I'm kind of pro dividing when necessary. Uh, because I I I don't think that's a controversial statement. To say to say division is okay when necessary, like, okay, I mean, I'm a g I'm guessing most of our listeners were pro-Reformation.

SPEAKER_00 8:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:14

So that was necessary. But then it's like, is foot washing a sacrament? I say yes. Well, I say no. Well, you're dumb, and I'm starting my own church, right? And our 25-member church is now split to 12 and 12. It's kind of like, uh, how much fruit's there? Well, I think ultimately we have to respect the autonomy of the local church, and we have to respect the priesthood of the believer. And if you have 12 people that genuinely read the Bible and walk away with the idea that look, the Lord Jesus instituted foot washing as a sacrament at the Last Supper, that's something we are supposed to do in service, uh, and the other guys are like, No, I uh we we cannot call that a sacrament or an ordinance, then I guess by their conscience they have to split. And so, uh, yeah, I guess I guess I would say I might, if I could see the future of decentralized, you know, kind of ecclesiastical power, the full ramifications of that, I might sing a different tone. I think a good comparison is like we we had wondered if Saint Jerome would talk differently about Mary veneration and saint veneration if he knew how far that doctrine would go. Sure. So I'm saying maybe, maybe I'm in the same boat. But I feel pretty strongly that if you are led by the Spirit in conviction and in your reading of scripture, it and and your your little heart, it's untenable for you to not do something or to do something, then I think you gotta follow, you gotta follow what the Lord's leading you to do.

SPEAKER_00 10:09

Yeah. Yeah, I think my biggest concern about the idea of like one global church that uh is kind of like homogenized enough to just look like I mean because cause the simple fact is whether whether we all look the same or whether all of our churches, you know, are part of the same organization or 501c3. The simple fact is we are part of a global church, we are part of the invisible church. Like the body of Christ transcends what we see here on earth, because you know, the the the sacraments are a physical reality of a spiritual truth, and that spiritual truth is the unity of all believers um through the Holy Spirit. Like that's a beautiful thing. So I don't have to worship the same way a dude in Ethiopia worships, because as long as we're we're we're as long as we're both worshiping the risen Christ in spirit and in truth, we are brother and sister, regardless of whatever else kind of stands between that. Now that's certainly not to say that the doctrinal differences don't matter, because I do believe the truth matters. There are things that I think that there are things that I do as a Christian or as the church that I belong to because I believe they're objectively true. Uh there are also things that I do because they represent the tradition that I belong to and I allow myself to submit to that tradition. Um I think that there can be a lot of concern of like finding the because because I've often found that like the people who really put it upon themselves to only worship in a church that is the most right, one, they end up worshiping at like the most niche, like toxic little home church in the world. It's like, oh good, your search for truth has uh severed you from 99.9% of all believers in the world. Like that sounds counterproductive.

SPEAKER_01 12:10

Foster did a wrote a blog about that recently. Yeah, he talked about the warning of these really specific home churches are actually born out of pride. Not all the time.

SPEAKER_00 12:24

Sure, sure.

SPEAKER_01 12:25

But it's born out of an unwillingness to submit.

SPEAKER_00 12:29

Well, and like, you know, uh when for for our OG listeners, I remember when we were doing our series on on Christological heresies in the early church, um when I learned about the division of the Oriental Orthodox Church, that's like the Coptics, the Armenians, the Syriacs, um, they split because they felt the Council of Chalcedon worded the Christological debate on Nestorianism in a way that was unhelpful. And the situation was they had been battling Nestorianism so hard that now there was a new heresy that did not affect their cultural context. But because that that heresy was affecting the other parts of the church, they passed a global council that changed the wording, which to them felt like it was too sympathetic of Nestorianism. So they were basically like, We're not we haven't changed what we believe, but we think this wording is actually so rigid and so unhelpful that for us to ascribe to this would not take a step away from heresy, it would take a step into heresy. And so for me, I think when I researched that, it made me think like it's not always about the letter of the law when it comes to doctrine. Sometimes there is value in being able to say, for the sake of our people and where we're at and what we understand, it actually makes sense to not quite sit with you guys if it's gonna cause a stumbling or a misunderstanding, or Lord forbid, a leaning back into heresy. Um that's certainly not saying like that truth is subjective or anything like that, but I think like you when you realize that culture, philosophy, language, all of these things entertain how we understand truth, it's just not quite that simple.

SPEAKER_01 14:25

Um Yeah, you have to be willing to hold things with an open hand. Um and and I think very clearly history has proven that there are things that true Bible-believing Christians will never hold with an open hand. Right. Like, like there are things that we will say, no, you're not that you're not a Christian.

SPEAKER_00 14:45

Um and the Trinity, the the divinity of Christ, the resurrection, the resurrection, virgin birth, all of these. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 14:54

Yes. So there are there are these kind of really core that we, you know, we were talking about hymns last episode of when we all get to heaven, and I'm like, I may not be able to go to church with you, and I may think you're super wrong, but when we all get to heaven, what a day of rejoicing that will be. Absolutely. And yep. Uh I think one of the bigger issues, like I love that you pointed out the being able to respond to to cultural context within uh in a global church can't really do that as well. Um the other thing is even the Orthodox Church, what is it? There's like 12 churches that make up the Orthodox Church. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:38

Yeah, yeah, there's several.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

And that's it's because of that. Right. It's so that they can respond to different cultural issues within themselves. Another modern example of what you're talking about is different doctrines way different for different people as well. So right now, the Southern Baptist Convention is not super obsessed with end times theology or eschatological theology. They're not really obsessed with it. So you can be dispensational, you can be ah-mill, or you can be historic pre-mill and kind of get around fine in the SBC. Now at Master Seminary, you're gonna have a harder time being awil. Yes. Being historic pre-mil, even. If you are not dispensational, that's that is something that they value heavily.

SPEAKER_00 16:40

It's part of their framework, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:42

Yes, it's the story.

SPEAKER_00 16:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

It's literally baked into like their hermeneutical framework. So, hey, if and if you're not somebody that if if if you're able to say, ah, you know, I could just submit whatever because I I like how Masters does things, there you go. But if you're someone that's like, no, I think I think all millennialism is is the way to go. I have a pretty strong conviction about that. You're gonna have a hard time at Masters.

SPEAKER_00 17:15

And and that's one of the reasons I think I mentioned this in another chum talk that we did. Like, if I was if I was still pastoring a church and I had someone come up to me and say, Hey, I have a big problem with how your church uh is unwilling to like you said earlier, you guys don't wash feet as a sacrament. You don't call marriage a sacrament. You uh uh you don't you don't you call the Lord you call uh the Eucharist the Lord's Supper and you don't call it transubstantiation. I'm not gonna sit there and argue with them. I'm gonna say, it sounds like you should go to a Catholic church, big dog. Like, you know, like if you if there is a church that I believe is worshiping Christ and, you know, through that theological triage, I can say, all right, I don't know if I can say they're free of error, but you know, I can say that they're still worshiping Christ. And I'm like, if you have a value of this doctrine that is not one that I match, if you want to converse with me about it, I'm happy to share with you the conclusions that I came to came came to and the tradition that informs this. But dog, if you're coming to a to a uh a seeker-friendly button-up Hawaiian shirt church and you're wondering why nobody's in a suit, you're not gonna convince me to make everyone wear suits, but I might point out the nearest suit wearing shirt church for you. Like, you know, why why why squabble when we can live in unity, even if that unity is intentionally distinct from each other.

SPEAKER_01 18:44

I mean, my my initial reaction to that person would be almost to like plead with them to just submit for a season and see how that goes.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

Yeah, yeah. Which is which is also an option.

SPEAKER_01 18:56

I feel like you would do the same. If someone's like, it depends on the person.

SPEAKER_00 18:59

I think if it was their first week, you know, if it was their first week, I'd be like, I'm not sure why you came here, honestly. But if they've been around for a long time and they're just they just went through a a really Catholic reawakening experience, I'd be like, please don't leave over these things, because there's there's more, there's more to church than than these types of differences. Like we can still celebrate the sacraments, we can still enjoy communion with saints, but we we don't have to call it these things. Yeah, uh but yeah, if it if it's week number one and they're just like, Why do I call you pastor and not father? I'd be like, Well, you should go somewhere else, dude. Yeah, right. But you I really do, but I I think what we said in the beginning is spot on. Like, I think the the the importance is not to erase our differences, but to recognize our similarities in lieu of those differences. Um yeah, like I I want to look at someone from a different tradition and say, hey, you're a Christian, and I'm a Christian, and we'll we'll we'll uh you know, by God's grace, be in eternity together, and that's an awesome thing. And uh and you might go to a Lutheran church that's a little bit more hardcore than my church, and I might go to a Baptist church, but even though I'm not really a Baptist, but you know, hey, it's fine. We're hanging out.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

I think you are a very interesting case study for this because that's a whole other episode. You do have a whole bunch of specific convictions that you're willing to forego for the sake of unity and for the sake of your wife.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

It's true.

SPEAKER_01 20:32

Yeah. So but that's where you're able to do theological triage and say, okay, here's what's real is what's really is being plugged in to a healthy body that uh believes most like mostly the things that I believe, is that you know?

SPEAKER_00 20:51

Exactly. I mean, like, I I don't know. Like, I I never want to call theological distinctions like window dressing, but at the end of the day, if I have an option between uh a healthy church with healthy leadership uh that doesn't celebrate the Lord's Supper nearly as freaking often as it should. And then and then, you know, a great PCA church where um it's just all question marks over whether you're gonna get, you know, beaten with a stick by the leaders after service, then it's like, alright, I'd probably go with the first one, especially if I especially if my wife is at risk, especially my if my family is vulnerable, you know? Like that changes everything.

SPEAKER_01 21:31

So I uh I think that's good. I mean, guys, there's an infinite amount of things that can be said about division. Doctrine divides, right? Is is kind of I don't remember who said that first. Was it MacArthur? I think so. Yeah, yeah. Well, there you go. He was happy to divide. Uh yeah. Uh and so I think the big thing is just walking your brothers and letting other brothers Walk you through what's worth dividing over. Sure. So and then it's how you go about division. If you can go about it without getting angry and name calling, well done.

SPEAKER_00 22:13

So keep your heart in a good place.

SPEAKER_01 22:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 22:16

So now division becomes toxic, but leading into the first question is church membership biblical? Right.

SPEAKER_01 22:26

So we've already kind of discussed this framework of what a church is, the collection of believers that all agree to certain things. So how do those believers come together and say we're going to agree to these things? What mechanisms are in place to allow that to happen? So returning to our earlier example, uh I don't know if you know this, but there are there are Baptists that are footwashing Baptists. Have you heard of that? I've not. Okay, yeah, it's a little rare, but if you're at a church where they say, nope, footwashing is an ordinance of the Lord, and you take your 25-person church and split it in half, how does that other church get started officially? How do they maintain some sort of structure and order? Right. How do they know who has a say at this new church? Because if the believer is a priest, part of the priestly kingdom, then they have some semblance of authority, right? Yeah. They have some say. Well, you do all these things through church membership. So I would say church membership is biblical. Okay. And we can talk about that for the next 30 minutes. Maybe 20. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:59

Um, yeah, I mean, I I don't know. I I think that membership has existed the the idea of membership has existed very differently. Because the thing was, like, if we're talking about like the early church, especially during a persecuted time period, like, you don't need to fill out a card to be a member of a church, because the fact that you're showing up at all typically means that you've already got some skin in the game. There's already some involvement. I think the idea of formal membership is a very like 20th century and on thing, because it kind of implies that the way that we live lives can be very superficial. Whereas in reality, like the church is something that compels us to put roots down. And I think church membership was probably pretty redundant for most of its history because the assumption was that if this was a place that you showed up to, it was a place that you belonged to. And I think even more so, if it was a place that was connected to your baptism, it was a place that you belonged to.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

Well i if to offer slight pushback, sure. I don't know if we're operating with the same definition of membership. Okay, okay. Because and I don't know if we're operating like we should probably define church membership, I guess. Okay, sure. With because it sounds like you're just talking about regular attendance, but it didn't matter in if for Rome if you were a quote unquote member or not, because they called all the shots.

SPEAKER_00 25:36

Well, that's what I'm saying. I'm saying that your m no one was no one was asking, is Miss Becky a member of Paul's church in Corinth if she's if she was baptized there and shows up every week? Like because it was assumed that you were it was assumed that you belonged to a place that you went to. Whereas I feel like in 2026, you can show up to a church every week and have friends there, and the pastor knows who you are, but then if they say, Hey, it's time to talk about uh whatever, you can be like, I'm not actually a member here, so you know.

SPEAKER_01 26:15

Yeah, so the difference is is that you're you're right to point out when Miss Becky in Corinth in the first century gets baptized, uh, but and that quickly evolves into a pretty lengthy catechumen process. Correct. Or catechesis process, sorry. Yeah. And so Miss Becky goes through all the different trainings which you could say equate to a membership class, and then and we've talked at at Naziham about how did they gate baptism too heavily?

SPEAKER_02 26:46

Right.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

Um, and they probably did, but once you were baptized, yes, you now I don't we don't know particularly how much authority that baptism brought you, but because our first part of this discussion was so valuable talking about division, how do you have a voice over what's worth dividing for or not within your church? Because what if the vast majority of the church suddenly thinks they get won over by scripture and they think that, well, I think footwashing is an ordinance, and then the pastors being stubborn. So, like w do you see what I'm saying? What mechanisms are in place to make sure these things happen in an orderly way?

SPEAKER_00 27:33

Oh, I see. What are what are you defining as church membership? I'm I'm calling church membership uh like a a commitment that an individual makes to belong to a church and to submit to it as a biblical as a biblical presence in their lives.

SPEAKER_01 27:50

No church membership, I would say, implies some sort of um formal declaration of belonging to a body, and with that brings you privileges and a unique voice into that body. That smaller body.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

Oh, this is a congregational thing. I see. Okay. Yeah, that's what church membership is. That's not true. You can be a church member in a Presbyterian church or an episcopal church. So those both have different ecclesiologies.

SPEAKER_01 28:29

And Presbyterian Presbyterians still value church membership.

SPEAKER_00 28:35

Of course, yeah. But I mean I you're talking about it from a very like uh this is a very like um American citizen kind of thing. Like, you know, you you put in the work, you do the tests, you get the stamp, you get the certificate, and now you have to pay taxes, but you get to vote and you have a say in the world around you.

SPEAKER_01 28:56

It's not just American. This sort of idea of belonging to a specific body or group and having this voice, like this came out of the Reformation. Yeah, yeah. With it with within the Anabaptists in particular.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

Right. Everyone's favorite of the reformers.

SPEAKER_01 29:17

You know what? Munster happened one time. That's right, and never again. Yeah. So so that's yes, I'm thinking through church membership congregationally, because for the vast majority of our listeners, non-denom or not, when they if the pastor says, Hey, you've been coming for like a year and a half now, why aren't you a church member? That's what I'm thinking this question is addressing.

SPEAKER_00 29:42

Yeah, no, I I don't disagree. I think, like, okay, okay. Do you feel do you feel good with the definition that you've given so I can give my definition? Yes. Okay. Sounded very passive. Alright, no, no, no. I am gonna approach this again. Um, I mentioned I was a pastor before. Um church was uh Christian for Christian Reformed Church North America. Shout out the CRC. If you ain't Dutch, you ain't what? Doesn't matter. Dutch are just people. Um, but uh no, so here's the thing. I am a big fan of the three forms of unity. Uh when I got into the CRC and really kind of getting more into the more official reformed community, reformed tradition, uh, we were kind of bound by six historical texts. Uh the ecumenical creeds, of course, being the Apostles' Creed, Nicene Creed, Athanasian Creed, and then you've got uh the Belgic, the Heidelberg, and the canons of Dort. So if you look at, I believe it's the Heidelberg, it would say that the three marks of a church are like what makes a church a church, deep down in its bones, in its churchly bones, is uh the uh administration of the sacraments, which of course within a reformed community would still just be baptism and administering the Lord's Supper, uh, church discipline and the teaching of the word. And so for me, it makes the most sense that to be able to conduct what I as a leader am bound to do, membership is what establishes my ability to do that. Because then and and I think church discipline carries this like uh weight of oh, this is you know, Bill getting reprimanded because he, you know, was talking to some lady on the side of his marriage and now he's getting it talked about. Like church discipline is really just like it is discipleship, it is leaders walking with people, helping them to walk with Jesus. It's not it should not just be solely done through this like weird uh rod smacking like exhibit of shame. But it's like if these are the three things that we should be doing, uh proclaiming the word, administering the sacraments, and providing discipleship, how can I do that if I don't know who belongs to the church? So I can't provide church discipline or meaningful like covenantal discipleship with someone who has not made an effort to commit to this community because at any point they can just leave because I think that's kind of part of the superficial side. But it's also like for most of church history, people went to the church that they were baptized at probably until they died, and that's not the case here. People are moving constantly for work or for family or for school. Like, I know I certainly don't go to the church that I was baptized at. Most people don't even live in the same city that the church they were baptized at. So I think a level of commitment is important to establish that relationship between the leaders and the community so that the work of the church can be done in a meaningful way.

SPEAKER_01 33:01

I I agree with everything you said. I just feel like it's missing some pieces. Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. Because what happens when all the members of a certain church feel or 75% of them don't like some sort of uh doctrinal stance that's had. Maybe this definition taken up with the Presbytery. Yeah, and then how is the Presbytery get elected? I think this is why mainline Protestants have drifted.

SPEAKER_00 33:36

No, no, it's not American.

SPEAKER_01 33:37

No, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 33:38

It is, it's power to the people. It is, it's power, power from the bottom up. Yeah, that's very American. I'm not even saying it's a bad thing. I'm just saying it's an American thing.

SPEAKER_01 33:47

Okay, then God bless America.

SPEAKER_00 33:50

God bless America, bro.

SPEAKER_01 33:52

Stand beside her. Uh anyway. Uh because this the I just made this connection. This is one of the reasons mainline Protestants have all drifted liberal. Because there's no there's no mechanism in place to remove heretics from the top.

SPEAKER_00 34:11

Why mainline Protestants have all drifted liberal? Um Yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 34:18

Uh there's no mechanism. Cause even the SBC was drifting liberal. We haven't that that's an episode and a half someday, but the at least the mechanisms were in place within the SBC to course correct. Right.

SPEAKER_00 34:36

Yeah, I I don't I don't I don't know if I really see that at all. Because there there are quite a few denominations. I I would say yeah, there's there's quite a few denominations that don't have a congregationalist approach that are still pretty darn conservative and don't really show much sign of budging at any time.

SPEAKER_01 34:54

No, they've had to split off, though. That's the thing.

SPEAKER_00 34:57

I mean, if the metric is have they split off or not, then consider all Protestants red-handed.

SPEAKER_01 35:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_00 35:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:06

Uh I mean, maybe I'm overthinking it. I'll just say this. This is uh this is Mark Dever in Why Should I Join a Church? He says church membership wasn't invented by pastors, ministry leaders, or growth experts. Membership is the natural outcome of the gospel itself. Perhaps you've never considered it, but the gospel is not just about how God saves us from the domain of darkness, it's also a message about how God saves us into the kingdom of the Son he loves. A kingdom bustling with other redeemed sinners who like us are now citizens of heaven. And he references Colossians 113 and Ephesians 2.19. So that still fits within your framework. Maybe I'm like overzealous on the case. I don't know. I mean I congregationalism.

SPEAKER_00 35:50

If I had to if I had to extend my one page paper of an answer into like a five-page paper of an answer, I would definitely talk about how like the value of being an individual in the church is that now you're better equipped to do the work of God. Which means like, I mean, like in a practical sense, like I know people who uh have been able to raise their kids better, because now they have meaningful relationships with people who have raised kids or who are currently raising kids. So now I'm walking into this God-ordained role of being a good father and a good husband. But also, like, yeah, the church is oftentimes the mechanism for serving the community and for advocating for the downtrodden and for um, you know, doing lots of good godly things that kind of lean into our uh light in the darkness, salt of the world kind of presence. Um yeah, I don't know. I I don't know if I totally vibe with the whole like and I so I I do believe in the priesthood of all believers, a hundred percent. I think that is that is you know a very core reformed idea. I don't know if I believe in it to the extent to like like I do think that members of a church should in some sense hold its leaders accountable. I don't know if it's like in that same depiction of like 75% of the people should be, you know, causing a causing a change. Because I I I really think that like when when God prophetically moves the people, it's typically through the leader, right? Not through the you know the the you know the colony kind of causing an overthrow. That that seems very American revolution. That doesn't seem very like book of prophets. Um but I guess you could say that the prop but I don't know. The prophet was an everyman in the Bible, but the pastor in the New Covenant fulfills the role of the prophet. The prophet shouldn't be some guy standing on the street yelling at the pastor, the pastor should be the prophet, doing a lot of external dialoguing right now, but um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:02

I I mean all all I have to say is look at Rome for a thousand years and say, look at that mess.

SPEAKER_00 38:11

Yeah, do you think that mess gets better if like every time the people are disgruntled they can just like cause a cause a regime change? That sounds even worse. Well, what if leaders suck then people are worse?

SPEAKER_01 38:24

It decouples it decouples power from the church.

SPEAKER_00 38:33

So it lets the church focus on being the church. I mean, even the Reformation technically wasn't an example of that because Luther was a priest himself, right?

SPEAKER_01 38:46

I mean, the Reformation is also political.

SPEAKER_00 38:52

Right.

SPEAKER_01 38:53

It was a step in the right direction, but it was also very political. Sure, sure, of course, yeah, of course it was. You know, the Anglican was I I would say somebody put it this way, like politics definitely informed the England the Reformation in England. Yeah. I would say politics were affected by the Reformation in the mainland Europe. Yeah. So look, I I didn't I don't want to like turn this into like a the importance of congregationalism. I mean the I think we we we both need to be we're both clearly in agreement that church membership is very, very, very important.

SPEAKER_00 39:38

Yeah. I mean, and I I mean and I don't wanna I mean just like we we kind of started our conversation, if a vast number of people in your church are like, we are really concerned about something we're seeing in Pastor Billy, whether it's like how he's preaching or what he's preaching about, um, or or something we're seeing in his character. Like, I would not say that the proper Presbyterian polity is silence you know, silence mortals when the Lord is talking. You're you're right.

SPEAKER_01 40:15

I'm making a yeah, I'm making a little bit of a caricature about and but then what if what if they don't say that?

SPEAKER_00 40:22

No, no, no, I get it. I I think and I agree, when you empower the priesthood of believers, you do empower people to speak. And I certainly wouldn't want any church where the members are just like, I say nothing unless my leader tells me to, you know, no, I think we should be alive and well as as believers ought to be.

SPEAKER_01 40:41

Um But uh I I think though the bigger thing is when when we talk about church membership, are we are we talking about somebody who just watches sermons online and listens to church history podcasts and like maybe has a few Chris Christian friends in their life? Like, should that person be a member of a church somewhere? Yes. And I I don't know if if for the advent of the internet, I don't know how much more common that person's being. Yeah. But I I if you are someone who listens to this and maybe heads to church once a month to listen to the sermon, but you're not really plugged in, you don't really know anybody there, uh, I would plead with you to read why should I join a church from nine marks and what is a healthy church member also from nine marks. Nine marks is like the modern ecclesiastical like practice, right? Yeah. Um I would plead with you because I've I've heard the analogy that a Christian not participating in church is like a fish trying to like survive out of water, right?

SPEAKER_00 42:01

Yeah. I mean, and I I think that's why because it I mean, like, it I think it's a little bit harder for me, and and maybe this is this is definitely my own my own kind of issue. Like, I tend to look at this scenario from the leader's point of view, not the individuals. So when I'm like, if someone comes to me and is like, hey, Pastor John, I'd love to be a member of the church. I've uh watched a few times online, and this is my first time coming in person, and um, I'd be like, Who are you, man? Like, like maybe before we do anything, let's get to know each other. Like, I want to talk to you, I want to figure out who you are, I want to understand your relationship with Jesus. Like, you know, like for me, I and I and I still believe this. Like, when someone comes to a church and says, I want to be a member here, I want to sign the bottom line, that pastor is basically saying, You are a person that I will be held accountable for when I stand before God. So I'm like, I don't want Joe Schmoe who comes every quarter and I can't even I don't even know his last name being a member here because he's giving me no room to disciple.

SPEAKER_01 43:10

That's where you get to say, that's great, Joe. That's awesome. So here's here's what that's gonna look like, brother. Let's go get coffee this week. And then you can say, so here here's the thing. Here's why church membership's so wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 43:25

Why am I talking like that all of a sudden?

SPEAKER_01 43:26

And and and I'm so I'm so thrilled you're here.

SPEAKER_00 43:30

I can tell you're on fire for the Lord, and I just want to stoke that fire. And so, what we want to find out at impending fire church, how can we stoke what's in you?

SPEAKER_01 43:39

No, you just say like, hey man, let's talk. Okay, here you go.

SPEAKER_00 43:43

Whoo, hey man, I'm John Solomon.

SPEAKER_01 43:45

Why am I you know? But you you're you're gonna take the guy out to coffee, you're gonna have a great conversation, and if the Lord has put it on his heart to be more involved in the congregation, you're gonna say, Let's let's uh Let's let's try to up the attendance. Let's try to get you plugged into Bible study. And um you know, and maybe I can start discipling you once a week. Sure. Or if you're if you don't have the time, you can say one of our elders can start discipling you once a week.

SPEAKER_00 44:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:16

And uh and and you and that's where you can set that healthy boundary of like, well, so membership is serious. Right. And we don't want to suddenly just jump into this either side.

SPEAKER_00 44:28

I know churches that well, I think maybe one church, but I know a church that has uh membership covenants, and they'll say, I mean, it there it's not like you're gonna get sued if you don't go to church every Sunday, but it basically says like I will make every effort possible to attend as much church as I can. I'm gonna serve this number of times per month, and uh I know it sounds kind of rigid, but it it's really just trying to lay flat the expectations, and the people who go there and who do that are they really love it. And then there are people who don't sign the membership covenant who still attend and they love it too. Um but yeah, no, I I do agree that like membership shouldn't just be like it's not you're not pat you're not stat padding, it's not just like, oh, you don't member? Yeah, sign the bottom line, sir. Like, no, I think there needs to be just as a member is now a responsibility that I have as a leader, it's also responsible that you have as a as a member, like you're committing to a church. Like you, you you are now responsible for us as we are responsible for you. Certainly not in the same way, but there there's there's something there, like there's a depth here we have to explore. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:42

Yeah, no, I I agree I agree fully, and uh I I I'm not saying if you were somebody who doesn't have even have like a rough church home, to just suddenly walk up to the pastor and say membership. But walk up to the pastor and say, Hey, I'm I'm so and so, I'm trying to be more plugged in, and uh I I I I need to have a church family in my life and uh go from there.

SPEAKER_00 46:11

And I'll say too, like, and this and this probably speaks a lot into like just my season of life that I've been in for a couple of years. Gosh, it's not even a season, that's like eight seasons, bro. Gosh, chill out, John. Um There's something about that conversation you have with a pastor or elder or somebody when you're just like, I I want to be involved here, but also here's where I'm at. Because I've had conversations when I was a pastor with somebody who'd be like, I just got so burned at the church I was at, or I moved here, but the church that I was going to, uh I went through a lot of hard stuff. Or or just somebody being like, I I'm sick, my mom is sick, I'm a full-time caregiver, I've got a million things on my plate, I just went through uh some traumatic event, because then I can be like, I don't think I need Billy to be stacking chairs this week. Like I I think I think now we can walk into this with the expectation that like you need time to be healed and to be cared for and to be loved, and now we can walk into that relationship intentionally. So I'm not gonna shove a bunch of responsibilities on you. Come to a Bible study for to be enriched by it, but I'm not gonna be like, I expect you to be, you know, cooking meals for the pot. Like now we now we know how to care for each other, and that's really important, I think.

SPEAKER_01 47:36

Well, and that even in that situation, they can still join the church.

SPEAKER_00 47:42

Absolutely. Yes. I would not put an obstacle on that at all. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:46

I I would say putting any be very careful about any qualifications you put on. For joining a church other than You need to be here mostly. Because the second you put like specific Sundays or so that you're I mean, you need to volunteer volunteer this many times and you need to be here this many Sundays, that's like Dude. What if someone's mom does get cancer and you're like, hey, I have to fly out for six months to go take care of my wife?

SPEAKER_00 48:25

See, but the thing is the church that I know of would not would not make a fuss about that. They'd be like, oh, of course, take care of your mom. But I think they're just they they want to have the expectation that like if if it's just a matter of like, I'm not feeling too good, kind of want to stay home, like no, I'm gonna make an effort to go because I said I would. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:48

I think our church actually says it's very generous. It says like every every like twice a month you need to average. Which is pretty generous. Yeah, that's where that's where it's just like you're you know, and and if someone's wondering why would you have that requirement at all? It's this protects the believers. Because if membership is super easy, what prevents me gathering all of my Calvinist buddies to go walk into every charismatic church that does membership, and I have a horde of people and we become members and then we just like vote to destroy the church. Oh my gosh. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. So it's why church membership is uh there's some requirements.

SPEAKER_00 49:39

Yeah. Um, I liked that our church and I I'm actually not sure how more strict churches do this, because our church really just said, uh, if you can affirm the apostles' creed, which is very, very basic, um, then you can you can be uh a member of the church. I believe that there are some churches who tends to say like if you can affirm these confessions in good faith, uh then you can be a member. Some are just like, do you love Jesus? Do you do you believe that he saved you from your sins? Yada yada. Uh kind of sinner's prayer style. But yeah, I think that I think figuring out what that looks like in your church context is probably important though, because that will tell you a lot about the the the culture of that church.

SPEAKER_01 50:28

And all the members can decide what membership specifically looks like. Oh, that sounds like a terrible idea. No! Gosh! Oh, listen, this isn't an episode. You were gonna ask me something. We're not talking about congregationalism. Uh I I'm not talking about congregationalism. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:47

You're like, I'll vote on it. And maybe we decide that James shouldn't be in the Bible, right, Taylor? Hmm. And maybe all the members of the knitting club at Second Street Baptists are like Listen, here's oh, okay, you brought it up.

SPEAKER_01 51:02

If a group of people decide, if they are convinced that James should not be in the Bible, they could be wrong, but it is within their right to say, yeah, well, we're gonna take James out of the Bible, because I don't believe the Holy Spirit would be leading that in them. And now you and I can say, we're gonna stay away from that group. And we reject that group.

SPEAKER_00 51:28

Yeah. Do you see what I'm saying? But they get to carry they they still get to call themselves Baptists, though, right? You can't stop that.

SPEAKER_01 51:37

You cannot you cannot legislate your way to victory.

SPEAKER_00 51:43

I'm telling you, man, this is so this is I I've said this before, and I just feel like.

SPEAKER_01 51:50

You're being a contrarian to the point you sound like a like you're making arguments Christian nationalists make. Good job.

SPEAKER_00 51:56

No, okay, you're now you're being a tool. No, I Baptists are the most American denomination, and this is just like I I'm not even a I I was gonna say I'm not even opposed. Of course I'm opposed. I think I I don't think it's very good. I I also think the presupposition that the spirit that that that a group of people can't incorrectly be guided by the Holy Spirit is uh is a not great presupposition. Um what do you mean? Well, like, you know, fifty people in a 55-person church think that James shouldn't be in the Bible, and oh, well, of course, spirit's not gonna lead all of us wrong. It's like, oh yeah, 50 a majority's never been wrong in human history.

SPEAKER_01 52:38

No, I'm saying they they'll be wrong together. That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. I'm not saying that.

SPEAKER_00 52:43

I would just say in that situation, you got a good pastor who's like, hey, I love you guys. I love the knitting club. You guys made me some great socks last winter. Uh, unfortunately, we're not gonna do that. And you guys have every right to leave the church, but we're not changing anything. Uh and honestly, dude, I'd be heartbroken if I went if I was the pastor of a church that got uprooted because 50 people decided that something of course it's heartbreaking.

SPEAKER_01 53:10

But then all so hopefully all of them would submit. And you can even bring in any outside pastors, anything to to like plead with them.

SPEAKER_00 53:20

That's a very Presbyterian thing to do.

SPEAKER_01 53:24

Baptists can bring in Pastor Bob from down the street. Right. You guys know Second Baptist, Second Baptist Church. Let's bring them up.

SPEAKER_00 53:33

Some trouble with the post. Yeah. Well, Pastor, they have a new series going? Not quite. Not quite.

SPEAKER_01 53:42

Yeah. Yeah, but that's where but that's where you cannot you can plead with them and use all every ounce of reason. And hopefully, and people do respond well to that sometimes. But if they don't, then there's you cannot. I can only control me. Right.

SPEAKER_00 54:02

Yeah. I don't I don't know. I I hear you, man. And I like just just like the first half of our conversation, we can be different and we can still be the same. And that's beautiful, right?

SPEAKER_01 54:14

I think we're really nitpicking nuance, to be to be blunt.

SPEAKER_00 54:19

I don't know if we're really nitpicking. I think it's I I think that's a pretty notable difference in how we approach polity. But that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 54:27

I don't know. Maybe I don't I think the only thing that really consistently works is like to be able to have the members have it doesn't we're not talking about.

SPEAKER_00 54:40

Here's what I would say anymore. A good church in a good church, the pastor gives the congregation that power. So like so here's what I would say if a pastor says, Hey guys, I want to drop $10,000 to expand our parking lot, and he's like, I feel like this is a really important move. We've been growing a lot, it seems necessary, it's a lot of money, but it's gonna be worth it. And eighty-five percent of the church comes back and says, This is a terrible idea. Now the pastor has every right to say, I'm in charge, I don't care. A good pastor says if they feel that strongly, it's probably a bad move, and then he chooses to go against it. But for them to say we're the majority and we negate this because we have the power, I think that's too much.

SPEAKER_01 55:31

Surprisingly, I agree with you.

unknown 55:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:33

Because the scripture says they put the offerings at the apostles' feet. Not at the deacon's feet, not at each other's feet. They gave you they gave the leadership the money. So I agree with you on that.

SPEAKER_00 55:48

Okay. Alright.

SPEAKER_01 55:49

That's what I'm saying. I think we're more in agreement than not.

SPEAKER_00 55:52

I didn't think we were in disagreement at all until you were like, the reason that church membership exists is so that we can stand together when the pastors turn into robots.

SPEAKER_01 56:05

I think it's built in. Look, look, maybe, maybe you're like, like, that's like reason F for you, and I and I led with it out of the gate. You're like A through D.

SPEAKER_00 56:15

A through D. I agree. So No, I think it's good. I think it's good. Like I said, again, all the caveats. I do believe that members should hold leaders uh accountable. I do think that a healthy member should be able to talk to a healthy leader and express concerns. I agree with all that stuff. And you know what I love? I love the church. You know what else I love? I love my co-host. Oh, I love you too, bud. And I love jump talk. And I love you, dear listener. And I think uh, what's that sound? Is that the plane landing? That's right.

SPEAKER_01 56:49

Oh, that was good. Put your seatbelts on. My dad told me, I told him I said I don't ever put my seatbelt on on the plane. And my dad was like, Isn't that the most me thing ever to me say? I don't listen to no dampy pampi rules. Anyway, my dad was like And then what happens when the plane hits a freak pocket of air and drops a thousand. I didn't know what turbulence was.

SPEAKER_02 57:15

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 57:16

It's like, what happened? He's like, he's like the physics. You snap your neck.

SPEAKER_00 57:21

Well, dude, I I was forever changed about my ethic of seat belt wearing when I learned that it's not even about protecting you. It's like if you hit something, your body turns into like a missile. So it's not just that you'll die, it's that you'll kill whoever you hit. Oh yeah, well.

SPEAKER_01 57:43

I I mean I the my thought is the the seat belts don't are if your plane is crashing, it's crashing. But if turbulence is bad enough, I don't want to get yeeted up into the air and crush some poor lady, you know? That's right.

SPEAKER_00 57:59

See, I love I love the example of like repentance that that came out of that story where it was like I was doing something wrong, my dad brought something up, and I submitted to him as my father.

SPEAKER_01 58:09

And so when I flew home from Orlando, guess what I did? Put your seatbelt on. I buckled that seatbelt and I put my tray in the upright position when they told me to. Bing boom.

SPEAKER_00 58:22

Alright, King. This was fun. I love chump talk. Thank you once again to our good friend frameworks.cinema. Follow him on Instagram. I actually looked at some of his videos. He has some really cool stuff. I think you should follow him. Follow him on Instagram. Thank you guys so much for uh commenting. If you want to decide what to talk about for us to talk about for our next chump talk, you can do so. Just follow the link in the show notes. We'd love to see what your recommendation is. And see you guys next time. See ya.