140. The Third Crusade: The Holy City is Lost

In the 12th Century, Saladin is steadily gathering the infinity stones of Islamic territories. 

Mosul, Aleppo, Damascus. The threat of a united Islamic front appears plausible, and this is a terrifying reality for the Crusader States.

Because they know that their foes have their eyes fixed on Jerusalem. 

And in 1187, the city that had been a Christian stronghold for nearly a century, falls to the Ayyubids.

Is the siege as brutal as the one in 1099? Is Saladin the pious leader that he's often made out to be? Are John and Taylor EVER going to do a watch party so we can all experience Kingdom of God together??? 

Soon you'll have the answers to all these questions and more. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:15

Hey everybody. Welcome to Church History for Chumps. My name is John Simon, and I'm here with my good friend and hopefully Mr.

SPEAKER_00 0:23

Mr. Silly in the flesh.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

That's right. AKA Taylor Treadway. Look him up on Facebook. Send him a friend request. I'm actually still a thing on Facebook.

SPEAKER_00 0:35

Yeah. It is. It is weird. I uh I am I am on Facebook. That's like my thing. People are like, it's kind of like your only thing. Yeah, but Facebook has just become increasingly unusable. But I don't do IG for some reason. I don't know. I do Facebook and then I do TikTok, but I post on TikTok.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

It's like whatever you whatever you're not doing, keep not doing it. I was literally just like I went on Facebook for like 20 minutes and I realized it was nothing but ads and like posts of pages I followed probably 10 years ago. I was like, this is this is I'm it's I'm reading a magazine right now. This is completely impersonal.

SPEAKER_00 1:12

It's really bad. I don't mind like I I like to keep up with SBC stuff on Facebook. Oh, that's fair. That's fair. I like to see what the people are saying in the groups.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

I I used to be, when I was a CRC pastor, I used to be a part of a a CRC pastor's Facebook group. And it was always really interesting because, you know, we've talked about this before. The CRC is basically like old grumpy Dutch men who like being really conservative theologically, and then uh slightly younger Dutch men and women who are upset about how Dutch the denomination is and how it should be more uh open-minded. But it was a lot of like passive aggressive comments. Um and it was just kind of fun to watch the the pot getting stirred. Um I miss Facebook. I miss that. I missed that. I missed the more the more niche stuff.

SPEAKER_00 2:02

You can find it still.

SPEAKER_01 2:04

Yeah. Well, I can't anymore. They they I honestly I don't know who their spies were, but when I was no longer a CRC pastor, they booted me out of that group within like really oh yeah. It's like this, it's like the spies, like it's like a it's like a little uh it's like a little bug in my house alerted the headquarters, and I was like, you no longer have access to this Facebook group. Wow. I was like, all right, no problem. That's okay. Yeah, but it's all good. That's actually surprising to me. I don't know. They're well connected. The Dutch, you know, they've got these little channels and networks all across all across the country. The Kovers are their spies. If you ain't Dutch, you ain't much, man.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

Um you went you went camping.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

Brother. Brother.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

Was it bad?

SPEAKER_01 2:50

No, it was good. It was a lot of fun. So, you know, Tucson, uh people think Tucson's in a desert. Of course it is, but we're surrounded by lots of mountains. Uh, there's with the mountains, they're beautiful, they're an hour from town, and there's lots of hiking and camping spots. I went up there, everything was fun. Like we had a fire, we uh played some games, had some food. It was a good time, just time with friends. What really got me was sleeping because we forgot our pillows, and then last time we camped, which was a couple of years ago, we had like one of those like sleeping mats. It's like a little foam thing, you just kind of put your sleeping bags on top of to give you a little insulation from the ground. Brother, the ground beat the heck out of me last night, dude. Like, if someone told me, John, I actually saw you sleepwalking last night and you got into a car and immediately got T-boned by a semi, I'd be like, that makes sense. That makes sense with how my body feels right now. Oh wow. Like I feel I feel like I feel like a bear came into my tent and just dropped 20 UFC elbows on my lumbar and then just left.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

You gotta bring an air mattress, man.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

I I think that's the move. I I think I'm learning. I'm learning. I wasn't a big camper. I camped when I was like under the age of 10, and then I've camped twice in the past like five years. Uh so I I like it, but man, I gotta get my game up, bro. Are you a camper?

SPEAKER_00 4:17

I we dabble. We want to camp more, but yeah. I mean, you gotta do the air mattress. That's like the biggest tip. And then if it's gonna be cold, you have to make sure you bring enough blankets or like a properly rated seat sleeping bag, but right.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

Yeah. I'm learning, man. I'm learning. But it was a good, it was a good time. It was a good time.

SPEAKER_03 4:40

Good.

SPEAKER_01 4:41

Uh hey, I'm really excited about something which I feel like I should share. When we dropped the idea for the watch party, people seemed very excited about this watch party. They did, bro. Let me just tell you.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

I think we have to do it.

SPEAKER_01 4:53

I've already been doing some some research. Uh yeah. Kingdom of Heaven watch party invited to the general public, aka the Chump Nation. Dude.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Let me ask you this. Are we are we able to do it more because I was like thinking it might just have to be in a Discord and we all like hit play at the same time. Please tell me there's better options.

SPEAKER_01 5:19

Well, Discord, you can also share your screen, right? So we could technically just have one of us put it on and then just share it. Is that illegal? It might be illegal. We should stop talking about it if that's how we if that's how we decide to do it. Well, because like I I know that there's watch party, but my my concern is that if what if it's watch party and it's like it's something you have to rent, then everyone would have to rent it together. And that just that sucks. I don't think that's good. Or like if it's on Netflix, but if you don't have Netflix, you can't be in the party. Like, that's whack. Just do a Discord sport party. Yeah, I think that might be it. All right. We'll figure it out. Dude, we we're overdue to have a chump Discord. I honestly, like, aside from just like the random messages exchanged here and there on like Facebook or some like our Instagram DMs, we I haven't really interacted very much with any of our I don't want to call them fans, our listeners. Uh, and that's just exciting. So being able to just be like kicking back, chilling, chatting, popping open a Coke Zero. It sounds like a good time.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

Popping open a Coke Zero. Yeah. Baptist beer. Good. Yeah, we'll do it then. We'll do it. We'll do something. Okay. We'll pick a date and then we'll we'll blast it on social media.

SPEAKER_01 6:35

Yeah, I think we could. I mean, we're already, we're at the we're getting to the uh end of June. This episode's gonna come out, beginning of July. So yeah, we could say something like mid-August or something.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

Yeah, then that puts an end date on the crusades.

SPEAKER_01 6:50

Well, the third the third crusade. No! You're gonna you want to stop now? We've got like eight to do.

SPEAKER_00 6:57

I know. I'm saying we could speed through it. But there's some there's some more fun characters coming up. Richard the Lionhearted.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

He's yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think he's people are people are hankering together.

SPEAKER_00 7:08

Do a little story on Robin Hood, too. Do a little episode on Robin Hood.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

We could, yeah. Um, we've been talking about doing an episode on the Carmelite Order, which kind of came in the aftermath of the Crusades. Yeah, so we can we can talk about cool stuff. We don't just have to be, and then they killed the Jews, you know. We can get it kind of break the cycle a little bit. Right.

SPEAKER_00 7:28

We're we're doing things different.

SPEAKER_01 7:30

Yeah. Can I also say, and this this could springboard us into a conversation that we don't need to have right now, but like studying through the crusades and then looking at like what's happening in the Middle East right now, like imagine having a conversation with like Baldwin IV donning his like chrome mask, and he's like, ah, brother, how goes the ventures of the of the Middle East? Does do the Crusader states still stand, brother?

SPEAKER_00 7:58

We're basically like the Persians hold the Strait of Homo.

SPEAKER_01 8:03

But it's also like, oh, and the Jews are actually pretty powerful now. And he's like, the Jews? Right. And it's like, yeah, they never really held a lot of impact.

SPEAKER_00 8:14

It's because the Christians decided that they should be powerful.

SPEAKER_01 8:17

That's right. It's like it's a whole thing. It's a whole thing, Baldwin. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

Um dude, that is pretty wild. And if you think about like the Iranians could basically or the Persians, sorry. The Persians. They can basically hold that straight captive with just like one guy and a drone.

SPEAKER_01 8:36

I mean, shout out to the Persians for being pretty relevant in that area for 5,000 years. I think that's really the big accomplishment. Since the Old Testament time. Like they haven't always been big. They're like the they're like the San Antonio Spurs. Like, they're not always winning the finals, but they're always around. They always show up. They always show up. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 9:00

Gosh. Oh man. No, all right. Well, before we get it.

SPEAKER_00 9:03

Historians do not concern ourselves with such trite matters.

SPEAKER_01 9:10

Such such layman allegories. Um, how was your Sunday though, man? Before we get cracking.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

Oh, dude, we did a throwback Sunday. So we did some old songs. People loved them. We did Isaiah 35 and Sunday school. Dude, we're still going through Isaiah. In the same way, we're still going through the crusades.

unknown 9:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

Still going through Isaiah. You're just in a long, like a stretch of long seasons right now. That's right. You're in a season of endurance.

SPEAKER_00 9:38

I think so. I think so. And then uh got some Mediterranean food to, you know, prepare for tonight's episode. And then uh size of swarma. And then we uh took a nap and then I did episode prep, and here we are. What kind of swarm? I get kebab. I got a kebab bowl, actually. Oh, nice, okay. So with rice or with salad? With rice.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 10:03

Okay, you have to scowl at me. I like rice. It was my one meal. I needed calories. I needed dense food. I love it. I think it's great. Brandy got this chicken shawarma.

SPEAKER_02 10:14

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 10:15

Yeah. So, yes. Are you okay? Last last banter question. Actually, before we do banter question, we have to remember. Um, guys, follow us on socials. What a segue. Give us give us reviews on the apps, and then leave a comment in Spotify. We talk about the Spotify comments, is really where the discussion happens.

SPEAKER_01 10:39

So really is. Yeah. And that's how we know what you guys think of the episodes. And uh, and also, yeah, if you're like that, was an R that was an awful take you had. Uh in fact, someone, one of you guys just said I really didn't like Taylor's take in this episode, uh, which I don't think Taylor knows because it was from an old episode, so I don't think you've read it. I'll tell you. Wait, really? Uh I was it was very generous. It was a very kind response. It was from from one of our one of our frequent flyers, but you know, we'll talk about it. Um, you're gonna tell me. This is gonna kill me. It was from our our John Chow missionary episode. Oh. Yeah. And I think they were just like, We I see where you're coming from, but I I don't know if I totally vibe with it. I thought you and I had the same take on that. Me, you and Thomas, I think, were slightly on the side. I think I was a little whenever I've whenever I have the two of you on, I try to take more of a middle road approach, but you know. Uh but yeah, thank you to uh again, frameworks.cinema for uh throwing out our uh topic for chump talk that we just recorded and dropped last Friday. Make sure you check it out if you haven't yet. We've already got a new supporter who's given us ideas for July. So uh yeah, if you want to get on for August's Chump Talk, you know, throw in a little uh topic for us to discuss, feel free. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

And then um my question to you was do you like falafel?

SPEAKER_01 12:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:06

Okay, good, good. All right, we can still be friends. Uh-huh. I love falafel.

SPEAKER_02 12:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:12

Like a lot.

SPEAKER_01 12:14

Well, dude, remember. If I was a vegetarian, I would be okay. I lived in Israel for six months, which is not the flex it was about 10 years ago.

SPEAKER_00 12:23

Uh before it's also when life was a lot shorter than that's yeah. When you're 20 and you're like, I did something for six months, people are like, wow.

SPEAKER_01 12:32

Oh, yeah. Now it's like, oh, six months? You were you not willing to commit to something? Okay. Gosh, thank you. Thank you. Uh, but no, like walking around Jerusalem, dude, like all they had were like falafel stands and shawarma stands, and both were amazing. And I love falafel, dude. It is so good. Hummus. Oh, it's the best. Make me make my sing.

SPEAKER_00 12:56

Well, now that we're all prepared for our prepared our appetites for Middle Eastern things. Welcome to everyone who skips the banter.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

Welcome aboard.

SPEAKER_00 13:06

Welcome. You should start the non-banter section with the falafel question to punish them just a little bit. Okay, I can do that. I'll move the markers around. All right. Here we go. Are you ready? Ready. The aging Pope Urban III sat in his chair, admiring drafts of his letters. Threatening excommunication of the Franks and Brits was not done lightly. But should they war with each other? They would have deserved it. At least the church can provide some semblance of peace in these dreary times, he thought to himself. He reached for a cup of wine. I ought to visit the British, you know, but some some show some support. He sipped the wine grimaced and smacked his lips. You know, you think being pope would guarantee at least palatable wine. He took another sip. Suddenly, the door to his chamber was thrust open. Your holiness gasped one of his advisers, I have ill news. Well it couldn't be worse than this wine, but go on. Saladin has defeated the crusaders, personally executed Prince Reynold, the holy cross has been lost to the Muslims. And nothing but stands between Saladin and Jerusalem. The Pope's eyes widen, he grasped his chest and collapsed.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

Dang, one of your better, man. Really good. Really, really good. Thanks.

SPEAKER_00 14:34

I was just dabbling my historical fiction writing.

SPEAKER_01 14:37

You know? Oh, you got that. That was good. Oh man, I've I feel like I have so many questions. Well, I could I first just say Urban the Third? What an incredible foreshadowing, right? Like I know that you know popes take each other's names all the time, but Urban the Third? Like that's that's a big deal. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:54

Yeah. And so uh that report from the Battle of Hatton got to him, and it is said in two sources that when he heard the news, he died. Oh, that's it. Like he didn't just fall over.

SPEAKER_01 15:11

This was uh Correct. Oh man, he's done. He died, he collapsed. All right, Q Urban IV, as they say.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

Yeah, yeah. Uh the grief struck him. And so uh if it's true, it does make sense because the entire army of the Crusader States was wiped out. And this battle of Hatton, it actually took place on July 4th of 1187. Dude, let's go. I'm so glad we reclaimed that date.

SPEAKER_01 15:44

Yes, yes. And that's perfect because this is gonna be the week of the 4th of July when this episode comes out. It really is. It really is. All right, all right. I'm having hot dogs today.

SPEAKER_00 15:54

So you can you can ask some questions and then I'll tell you, I'll see. Maybe we can bounce around a little bit. Um, but yeah, essentially, we're gonna do two things this episode. We're gonna talk about the Battle of Hatton, and then we have a good primary source for that, so that's gonna be fun. And then we're gonna talk about the Siege of Jerusalem, which there's not a lot to talk about, the actual siege, but we're gonna talk about whether or not the historical claims that Saladin is, you know, this really nice, wise, kind guy that just spared everybody. We're gonna look at that a little bit. Okay. So I would figure if you don't know the TLDR of the Battle of Jerusalem is Saladin walked in and spared everybody and let people go if they went to the world. That's awesome. That's the historical, like quick little, you know, if you're in history class, that's what you get. It's a little after you guys. It's a lot more complicated than that. I can imagine.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

But it wasn't it wasn't the the the siege of Jerusalem that happened in 1099, which was a lot less amicable.

SPEAKER_00 17:07

Um I don't want to talk about Siege of Jerusalem yet, but I will say I'm pretty sure that was in the back of his mind as he's forming a legacy. He's going to be aware of how horrific that was. And for the listeners, we have a we have a pretty good episode on that. Wait, did I do that one too?

unknown 17:28

Possibly.

SPEAKER_00 17:30

Do I just keep getting hit with the Siege of Jerusalem? You're you're you're our Jerusalem guy, I guess. I'm the Yerushlayam. Yes. So, yeah, so that's in the back of his mind. And if you remember, there was a bunch of people, women and children, hiding at the top of the temple that were prisoners. And uh one of the warlords sent their guys up there and slaughtered everybody.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

So that it did not go well. And that was just like a single anecdote of many anecdotes of people just getting slaughtered because it's not like the Muslims and Christians in Jerusalem dressed differently. So it wasn't quite like, oh, Christians over here, please, Muslims over here, all right. Kill the Muslims, Christians, you guys are good.

SPEAKER_00 18:20

Like, no, a lot of Christians got I know we do, we we don't want to focus too much on Jerusalem right now, but while it's hot, think about in comparison. Are you familiar with the history of City of God? The movie? No, the book from Augustine. Oh, oh, my bad. Uh no, not really. Not as much. So the barbarians invade Rome and supposedly slaughter everybody. They spared the people in the churches because remember the barbarians were Arians, so they were Christian. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 18:54

Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:55

And it's just kind of like you have you have some, even 800 years before this, you have some semblance of like decency being shown in sieges. Mm-hmm. So it's just it's just reiterating, guys, like the Crusader Crusades was a nasty time.

SPEAKER_01 19:18

Yeah.

unknown 19:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:19

For everybody. For everybody.

SPEAKER_01 19:20

Right. And even though, like you said, Saladin being what what fascinates me about Saladin, and then I'll kind of let you go because I know there's a lot to talk about. Saladin seems like a guy who is very, very conscious of the type of legacy he's trying to lose.

SPEAKER_00 19:34

Yes, which is super interesting because I don't think a lot of people think that way in history. I don't think a lot of people are thinking about that.

SPEAKER_01 19:42

Right. So like when when all the leaders Yeah, because when all the leaders of different parts of Islam are like dropping like flies, like when the uh when the caliph of in Cairo dies, when Nur al-Din dies, like the common sense thing to do would be just like, oh, I'm gonna expand my Islamic rule and just you know, use the military, take these places over, then we'll have a unified Islam. But he was like, it'd be really counterproductive to say that I'm the unifier of Islam if I use it through military means, which strives to be more diplomatic. So it's like he's consciously very like, I know how I want to present myself, so I need to be very conscious about how I'm doing this.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

And he's a high honor guy. He is, he's a very high honor guy. So if you, dear listener, are not super familiar with Saladin, and don't skip last week's episode. I think I think that that's very important to understanding. We already what we talked about last week. You can skip Second Crusades because that was all filler. Um the last thing I say before we jump into the Battle of Hatton, and our little primary source here, is uh I didn't realize until I did my episode prep that we're not even technically in the Third Crusade yet. Yeah, yeah. This is this is the origin story. You cannot tell the story of the Third Crusade without our setup here. So this is good. This is very good. Okay, well, let's jump in. I've got um a letter from Erno Ernell Ernie, who was a Frank, and he wrote this in 1197. Okay. So Battle of Hatton is 1187. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

Was he supposedly there at the battle?

SPEAKER_00 21:31

Yeah, and then Siege of Jerusalem is also eleven eighty-seven. So Hatton Hatton's July 4th, 1187. Siege of Jerusalem is October 2nd. Okay. 1187, early October. Okay, so he records um a couple things. There's a few characters I might have to pause and explain. So uh you kind of have this first intro in his letter. He's Now I will tell you about King Guy and his host. Guy, what a great name, right? Guy was king of Jerusalem after Baldwin IV.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

The leper king. Which was kind of a scandal, right? Because didn't they have a lot of hoops to jump through? Because Baldwin knew he was going to die really fast. He also couldn't have kids because of his disease. So there was kind of like some junk around guys. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

So he dies in 115. Baldwin dies in 1185. Okay. So two years before the battles that we're talking about tonight, today, this morning, whenever you're listening. Maybe you're listening outside of space-time. I don't know. You never know. You never know. 11. So Baldwin dies in 1185. And yes, there's kind of an immediate drama over who's going to take over, but that's a whole nother episode that we won't do. So find a YouTube video. Uh it ultimately goes to Baldwin's older sister, and her husband is Guy of Louis Nan. Okay. I can't pronounce French.

SPEAKER_01 23:11

Luciignan, I bet.

SPEAKER_00 23:12

Lucian. Oh, okay. Okay. But one of the key characters in our court here is Renault, who I mentioned earlier.

SPEAKER_01 23:25

He was the unhinged guy. He was a buddy of uh Baldwin's.

SPEAKER_00 23:29

Yes. So there's here's here's the thing. Renald was probably the reason that Baldwin won that battle of Montes Gard that you talked about last week, where the like Saladin was sent back to Egypt with essentially his tail between his legs and a bunch of dead troops. So Renald was probably the reason that happened. Okay. Okay. So setting up to our first battle on July 4th, setting up, you have Ronald, who is Prince of Antioch. He is a very, you said unhinged. That's the perfect way to describe him. So I feel like history's out on a final judgment on him because he did a lot.

SPEAKER_01 24:26

Did you read that story about how he was trying to like extort like I think the patriarch of one of the towns in Outremer, and he stripped him naked and covered him in honey and covered him in honey for like a day.

SPEAKER_00 24:40

Sat him outside, and then yeah, and then it then that guy like excommunicated Ronald after, and Ronald was like, I don't care. It's like seems nothing to me. Ronald Ronald was always short on money and was very creative in how he earned his money. Um, one of his little schemes was uh invading Cyprus, I guess. Oh, it's okay. Ronald was one of the guys that attacked the Byzantines. Of course. Yeah, yeah. He had no shortage of ops out there. Yeah. So yeah, he had his ops, his little goon squad out. So Ronaldo, his little goon squad gets him in trouble. So his war hungry attitude is actually, I mean, we already did the spoilers, right? In our little cold open, we talked about how uh one of the news that's brought to him is that Saladin personally executes this guy. That happens. So another one of the kings in the area made a truce with Saladin. Okay. And some speculate that this truce was like a secret. Hey, we're not gonna help, we're not gonna. If you want to take Jerusalem, that's fine. That's why it definitely wasn't Guy. Oh, it might have been Raymond. It was Raymond. Raymond and Toulouse. Oh, Raymond of Tripoli? Tripoli, not Toulouse. That guy's been dead for like a hundred years. I was gonna say that he's been super dead for like a hundred years. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was it was Raymond. Um that's fascinating. And there's this truce going that, like, hey, don't attack the the tr the immediate, like, verifiable part of the truth was don't attack Saladin's trade caravans.

SPEAKER_03 26:12

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 26:13

Which is pretty, you know, don't attack my caravans. Well, we won't attack yours. It's all good. Well, Renault doesn't feel the same.

unknown 26:23

Oh, that's true.

SPEAKER_00 26:24

And says, I'm not bound by this truce, and attacks caravans pretty aggressively. Okay. Saladin, being such a high honor guy, thinks this is like the greatest insult. Because we agreed to happen.

SPEAKER_01 26:36

I mean, and he didn't agree to it with Raymond, but he did agree to it with uh.

SPEAKER_00 26:42

There was some high honor stuff happening, even just within between one of the one of the little anecdotes I read. Um, there was a guy that was a political prisoner of Saladin's, and Saladin says, Hey, you can go, just swear an oath that you're not gonna go back and like join the military of Jerusalem. And and the guy's like, Yes, I won't. Let me go pick up my wife and kids, and we're gonna go back to Europe. Saladin's like, All right, God bless, you know, go with God. And and then the guy gets there, and all the people in Jerusalem are like, Oh my gosh, please stay, please stay. And he's like, Oh, but I took this oath, and they like absolve him of the oath. But he actually he feels so compelled. He writes a letter to Saladin and basically says, I'm sorry, I have to stay. And Saladin says, Okay, well, your wife and kids get safe passage. They can lose. Oh, so they can go back to Europe and you can stick around. So, like Salad, he's willing to play ball. He's not just like perpetually offended, right? So that's what's so so so like that guy broke an oath that he made to him, and Saladin's like, uh, I get it. I get it. Sure. But Renault, dude, he hates the little Tony Soprano voice.

SPEAKER_01 27:54

Again, I get I get it. I get it. I understand. We all, you know, it's family. I understand.

SPEAKER_00 27:59

That's exactly right. It was it was he's got his Christian duty. So but Ronald Saladin hates Renault.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

I think it makes sense. Renault doesn't seem like an honor guy at all.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

No, so there's that, and then also Renault was the guy that like basically led the military that just destroyed Saladin.

SPEAKER_01 28:23

That embarrassed him. The first real L Saladin had to take in his kind of his early years.

SPEAKER_00 28:29

One of his only L's, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So let's go back to our little buddy Ernie. Okay. And his account of the Battle of Hatton. So I think we've set up some characters. If I'm being confusing, as Jackson liked to point out. He did. Gosh, thank you for that, Jackson. Funny comment on Spotify if you guys want to go look at it from last episode. Okay. He says this. Now I will tell you about King Guy and his host. Remember, King Guy, King of Jerusalem. They left the spring of Sephiria to go to the relief of Tiberias. As soon as they had left the water behind, Saladin came before them and ordered his skirmishers to harass them from morning until midday. The heat was so great that they could not go on so that they could come to water. The king and all the people were spread out and did not know what to do. They could not turn back for the losses, it would have been too great. When he's talking about the they, he means the entire army of the crusader states, by the way. This isn't just like, you know, the king and his little merry band of entourage guys. Like this is everybody.

SPEAKER_01 29:38

Oh, yeah, you're right. Because looking at just the list of commanders, you got Jocelyn III of Edessa, Raymond of Tripoli, Raymond of Antioch, like literally everybody is represented here.

SPEAKER_00 29:49

Everybody, yes. This part of the reason why, you know, spoilers, we saw already, when they wiped out the Pope supposedly dies of Greek. Okay. So uh they could not turn back, the losses would have been too great. He sent to the court of Tripoli, who had led the advance guard, to ask advice what to do. He sent word that he should pitch his tent and make camp. The king gladly accepted this bad advice. That's what it says. When the Count had given him good advice, he would never take it. Some people in the host said if the Christians had gone to meet the Saracens, Saladin would have been defeated. So it's like, well, the reason we we sat around and we tabled our thumbs. Yeah. As soon as they were in camp, Saladin ordered all his men to collect brushwood, dry grass, stubble, and anything else which with they could light fires and make barriers which he had made all around the Christians. So they built a wall and lit a brush fire while they're while they're already like dehydrated and overheating. Uh-huh. Kind of genius. Uh yeah, it just roasted them to death, right? No, no, no. They don't die from it. Okay. It's it's he's making them miserable, is what he's doing. So they soon did this, and the fires burned vigorously, and the smoke from the fires was great. And this, together with the heat of the sun above, caused them discomfort and great harm. Saladine had commanded caravans of camels loaded with water from the Sea of Tiberias to be brought up and had water pots placed near the camp. Get this is where Saladin's a little mean. The water pots were then emptied in view of the Christians, so that they should still have greater anguish through thirst, and their mounts too. Uh he goes on to mention as it was a little bit weird the the horses refused to drink any of the water from the springs. And so uh because of they were fr because of their thirsts, they were to fail their masters when they needed them most. Uh so they talk about uh they talk about this guy named Jeffrey of Franc Luc, who went to the king. He says, Sire, it is now time for you to make the Polians with their beards steer to the men of your country. It was one of the causes of the hatred between King Guy and the Poitavines, point Poitavins and those of this land. And uh the man, the men of that land sang a song, which a song in Jerusalem, which greatly annoyed the men of the kingdom. The men went, or the song went, and then it says in French what it is. I'm not gonna, but the translation is despite the polians, we shall have a Poitavin king. So this hatred and scorn led to the loss of Kingdom of Jerusalem. Without getting into all this, because I didn't even have time to look up all of behind this, there is an immense amount of infighting. Sure. So from where the episode ended last week in 1177, is that when Montes Grad was?

SPEAKER_01 33:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:05

76. Montes Grad is then Saladin gets sent back to Egypt with his tail between his legs. There's this uh that was a sign from God. Yeah, we defeated Saladin. We're we're we're meant to be here. Well, a decade of infighting, they just go back to what they've been doing, which is they're bordering on civil war here, okay?

SPEAKER_01 33:27

Well, because and we talked about this, like the the crusader states have been able to cooperate with each other, but they kind of operate in the same way that the different caliphates operate in in Islam. Like they can typically coexist, but they're they're separate territories with separate goals, separate objectives. Uh, like, you know, what one thing I I wanted to mention, which was a good kind of callback to the last episode, was um when Baldwin first became king, he was so young that Ramon III of Tripoli was like his regent and served in his place. And he was the one who was very like, let's be very peaceful with the scary Muslims, we don't want to get killed right now. But then all of that kind of falls apart. So when you mentioned that Raymond had helped establish those that basically peace treaty of like we're not gonna attack your trade routes, that wasn't surprising to you. Exactly, because then it shifted. Like the thing is, like, they're not just infighting with each other, they're also infighting about how to deal with Saladin, which is yeah, a huge problem. They're not they're not on the same page, basically.

SPEAKER_00 34:38

Yeah. I think I don't think it's like a controversial historical take to say like one of their biggest downfalls is that they wanted more and more. Like they weren't content just to have their little area.

SPEAKER_01 34:53

I think stability was hard too. Like, I I know that like the Kingdom of Jerusalem was always kind of bucking with Egypt because those little like slivers of like cesarea and acre, like there's always those lands that like if you can get them, we'll open up so much more. So I think the fact that they were European outsiders, very far from home in the middle of enemy territory, they always needed to expand to an extent because they were so they were in such a vulnerable position.

SPEAKER_00 35:23

That's a good counterpoint to that it was kind of out of necessity for survival to open.

SPEAKER_01 35:28

But I mean, I there I still think they're feudalists, you know. They're not they're not looking for a small and peaceful lifestyle. Like they're they're not establishing monasteries out there, they want to be established, so I think your point still stands.

SPEAKER_00 35:41

Yeah, yeah. So uh he talks about the infighting, and then Ernie goes on to say, when the fires were lit and the smoke was great, the Saracens surrounded the host and shot their darts through the smoke, and so wounded and killed men and horses. That's gotta be brutal. Oof. Like you just have these like thick black smoke. Have you guys ever burned vegetation from the yard before? Mm-mm. I've kids. Well, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:11

Just thick plumes of dark smoke.

SPEAKER_00 36:14

Yeah. So like when I when we lived in Arizona and I would weed the backyard, we had a fire pit in our backyard. And I it's I'm pretty sure it's against the law, but uh, you know. We'll say you guys were outside of city limits. We were outside of city limits. And I put all my uh I would just fill my fire pit with the weeds. And like I didn't know I I'd never done it before, and when I lit it, it was like thick smoke. And I was thinking like, oh, the fire department's gonna show up. But they never did, but it's thick, so I can attest if you've ever done like brush fire burning, it's not this isn't a cute little log that you mo smoke marshmallows over. Okay, and then just imagine arrows raining through that. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 37:02

Also, dude, I don't want to keep bringing us back and forth, but I'm just finding I'm looking at this right now on the online. It looks like the caravan that Reynold raided wasn't just a trade caravan, it was a Hajj caravan. Like it was a caravan of Muslims going to pilgrimage. Oh my god. That's like the worst possible thing you can do.

SPEAKER_00 37:23

I miss that detail in my research.

SPEAKER_01 37:25

Yeah, maybe maybe it's disputed, but uh yeah, I don't know. That is, if true, huge big, big if true.

SPEAKER_00 37:33

If true. Yeah. Yeah. But a historiography note. Um once I I think Wikipedia, as John and I have said, we reference it pretty frequently. I think it I think most people do, but you have to verify your stuff because I have even found things where uh Asbridge and Riley Smith, like our two main like the two voices of authority in the Crusades. Uh I've seen stuff go on Wikipedia where they say the opposite happened or something like that. For sure, for sure. And I'm like, ooh, I don't know. So anyway, you can use Wikipedia lightly, but remember, verify, verify. Okay. Cross-reference. Yeah. So uh we'll skip ahead. So they're just basically getting slaughtered. Uh essentially they move in, they kill everybody. Um, and this is where he says uh he he lists the people that get captured. He says he captured the king, the master of the temple, Prince Ronald, Marquis Boniface, Amory the Constable, Humphrey of Turon, Hugh of Gibele, Pilvane, Lord of Beautrin, and many other barons and knights that it would take too long to give the names of all of them. You know it's bad when your historian summarizing the battle lists. Yada yada, that's that's enough, basically. Lists all the MVPs and says there's a whole lot more. I don't have enough page space. Man. Yeah. Yes. Not great. Not great. Uh the Holy Cross was also lost. So they had taken the relic of the Holy Cross with them.

SPEAKER_01 39:32

Which had been pretty significant throughout the Crusades at this point. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:39

Well, they love their relics like we talked about. They do. They really love their relics. So they remember how we talked about the uh the guy who sold uh oh gosh, which one it was one of our crusader guys sold the crown to France from Yeah, to Notre Dame, right? Yeah. Not too well, he sold it to France. It was one of our crusader guys needed money and it was just kind of like you're gonna have to do that. That is true. Yes, yes, so it's like you guys lost what? Yeah. Um And then uh here's an interesting little note for our relic fans. Later in the time of Count Henry, a brother of the temple came to him and said that he had been at the Great Defeat and had buried the Holy Cross and knew well where it was. If he had an escort, he'd go back and look for it. Henry gave him his leave and an escort. They went secretly and dug for three nights, but could not find anything. Then they returned to Acre. Dang. Oofers.

SPEAKER_01 40:38

I think he was uh I think he was fibbing.

SPEAKER_00 40:41

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:46

Okay. He's like, Oh, you want me to go today? Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:49

Hey, I need some friends. We're gonna need some money for, you know, gonna stop for snacks. Yeah. So a little travel stipend, maybe. Yes, right. This disaster befell Christendom at a place called the Horns of Hatton, hence Battle of Hatton, four miles from Tiberias on Saturday, four July 1187. So uh I'm gonna skip, I'm gonna jump. Um when Saladin, oh, here we here's another source for the when the Pope dies. Um Pope Urban, uh yeah. The news of it struck the hearts of those faithful to Jesus Christ. Pope Urban died and went to God. That's all right. He heard it. Yeah. When Saladin had left the field with great joy and great victory and was in his camp, he ordered all the Christian prisoners who had been captured that day to be brought before him. They brought before him first the king, the master of the temple, Prince Renault Prince Ronald, Marquis Boniface, Humphrey of Toron, Amory the Constable, Hugh of Gibelay, several other knights. When he was with them all together before him, he told them that the king would have great joy and would consider himself greatly honored now that he had such had in his power such valuable prisoners as the king of Jerusalem and the master of the temple and other barons. He ordered that a syrup diluted with water and a cup of gold be brought. He tasted it, then gave it to the king to drink, saying, Drink deeply. The king drank, like a man who was extremely thirsty, then handed the cup on to Prince Renault. Huh? Prince Renault. Yeah. Prince Renault would not drink. When Saladin saw that he had handed the cup to Prince Renault, he was irritated and told him, Drink, for you will never drink again. The prince replied that if it pleased God he would never drink or eat anything of his. Saladin asked him, Prince Rinald, if you held me prisoner as I now hold you, what by your law would you do to me? So help me God, he replied, I would cut off your head. Saladin was greatly enraged at this most insolent reply and said, Pig, you are my prisoner, yet you answer me so arrogantly. He took a sword in his hand and thrust it right through his body. The Mamluks who were standing by rushed at him and cut off his head. Saladin took some of the blood and sprinkled it on his head in recognition that he had taken vengeance on him. Then he ordered that they carry the head to Damascus and was dragged along the ground to show the Saracens whom the prince had wronged and what vengeance he had had. So there's a couple there's a couple accounts, and I debated on which because typically the first account is the one people like the best. The second account of this is way less favorable to Ronald. So King Guy, who Saladin thinks highly of because he's a king. King Guy brings them into his tent and he gives him water, not this fancy, you know, syrup. Yeah, this fancy juice that he made him. He he gives him water and Guy drinks and then he hands it to Ronald. And Saladin smacks the goblet out of his hand before he can drink. So I guess there's this custom in Muslim culture where if you give someone water, it means you're going to spare their life.

SPEAKER_02 44:24

Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 44:25

And so Saladin supposed to thought Reynald was being smart. Yeah, here's one of the quotes from Wikipedia I couldn't verify. Saladin said, Kings don't kill kings.

SPEAKER_01 44:38

Okay. Doesn't that go hard? That's actually pretty solid. I mean, and again, it goes with his whole like ruthless but honorably ruthless, right? Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:47

So he says, Kings don't kill kings. Mm-hmm. And uh he smacks the goblet out of his hand and he says he doesn't get to drink because he is an like an oathbreaker. And then just kills him.

SPEAKER_01 45:06

Dang. Honestly, both of those stories like feel so cinematic.

SPEAKER_00 45:10

Like Well, yeah, Renault's Renault Ernie might be a little bit more of a Renault sympathizer.

SPEAKER_04 45:17

Sure. Sure.

SPEAKER_00 45:18

Which I would imagine someone who's pro-Crusades. Like I mean, he's literally a crusader.

SPEAKER_01 45:28

Yeah. And Reynold sounds like the crusader of he's he's the he's like the jock general who's just like hitting his chest, listening to Death Metal before, heading into the heading into combat. Like, yeah, he's uh he he's the one the boys love. Guy, maybe not so much. Guy might be a little soft, but Raynald sounds like the dude everybody liked if you weren't a Muslim.

SPEAKER_00 45:51

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So uh Riley Smith says this on the he says the results of this battle were catastrophic for the whole kingdom. Latris, Latin, Latris, Latin fortresses and cities had been deprived of their garrisons so well, so to sorry, to swell the Latin armies, and so Saladin could proceed through the region with impunity, bolstered by Muslim excitement about the prospects of control of reclaiming the holy city of Jerusalem. And unfortunately for them, so we talked a little bit about war season, how you have different seasons where it's better or worse to wage war. Unfortunately, this happened in July, which still had a lot of war season left.

SPEAKER_02 46:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 46:42

So if this had happened later in the year, getting towards winter, Jerusalem might have been safe. Uh so essentially, um Saladin has free reign to march to Jerusalem.

SPEAKER_01 46:57

Okay. Um this battle is happening at Hatton. And do we know, like, just distance-wise, how far that would be?

SPEAKER_00 47:05

I mean, you said it's four miles from Tiberias, so I didn't look at a map. I'm sorry. Oh, that's fine. And then they don't immediately march there. Like they start the they start the battle in mid-September, and then by August 2nd, they are done. Okay. Okay. So Jerusalem falls on October 2nd, 1187. And this is what uh this is how Addsbridge describes it. So he says, Saladin began his offensive with an attack on the western walls, but after five days of incl inconclusive fighting by the Tower of David, shifted focus to more the more vulnerable northern sector around the Damascus Gate, perhaps unwittingly follow the presence precedence set by the first crusaders. Do you guys do you remember that? That's what they did in the first crusade. I see. Right. Okay, okay. So on 29 September, in the face of fierce but ultimately futile resistance, Muslim sappers achieved a major breach in Jerusalem's walls. The holy city was all but defenseless. So once again, Jerusalem was left unreally uh uh undefended. There was uh, I think I read 12 knights left in the city. Like, so they were they were knighting a bunch of squires that were in training.

SPEAKER_01 48:42

Um shoot, okay.

SPEAKER_00 48:44

Yeah, it's kind of like Helm's Deep. Remember when they hand like the old man and the little boy the sword? They're like, if you can stand, you can fight, basically. Yeah, so they are uh the old they they didn't have much to go off with. Literally everybody was wiped out in that other battle. The Battle of Hatton. So that's why it wasn't it wasn't much. I mean, they you know, a big city's hard to break into, but they they got through and um what is duh so so Saladin is famously known for not coming in and shedding blood. Okay. And people think that oh well he was just wise and merciful. He's a pious guy. Yeah. So there's there's a little bit more of a discussion to be had. So uh Asbridge actually does a great job kind of breaking down um is uh Saladin had expressed multiple intentions for complete and total bloodshed. Okay. So interesting. Um he had told him uh this was he this is Saladin told Balian at an initial meeting, and Balian was, I think, the guy that was left in charge of Jerusalem. He says, You will receive neither amnesty nor mercy. Our only desire is to inflict perpetual subjugation upon you. We shall kill you and capture you wholesale, spill men's blood, and reduce the poor and the women to savory. Or slavery. And he goes this and this and then Asprich notes that this is confirmed in uh a letter that Saladin wrote that we have where um he basically says the same thing.

SPEAKER_02 50:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 50:45

So Saladin expresses I'm gonna kill every last one of you. So he was having a good day. He was like, you know what? No, no, no, no. So Balian threatened back and said, Okay, alright, you want to play that game? Well, I have a few thousand Muslims in this city captured, and I also have some of your little holy sites. And by the time you're done, every last Muslim will be dead, and all of your little holy sites will be burned to the ground. Oh, hold on, hold on.

SPEAKER_01 51:24

Yeah. I think maybe something was lost in translation. Uh yeah, yeah, yeah. We're using a lot of metaphor, you know. I think you might have misunderstood.

SPEAKER_00 51:35

Yeah, and Asbridge does a real he he we've talked about how Saladin is keen on his own presentation of himself, right? Yes, he's a politician. Yeah. Um, but I think our initial evidence actually suggests that he was not keen on presenting himself as just and uh as um Asbridge puts it, magnimaneous. Sure. Sure. Uh he was he he was like in this situation, I'm gonna set an example, might have been his his thought. So uh Asbridge puts it this way the insight might cause some reevaluation of Saladin's character and intentions, but it should not prompt the pendulum to swing towards a total polar opposite. So uh he must be judged within his context. Here's the point towards Saladin. This is the this is why it's a both hand situation. Um in a siege, messengers are going back and forth, right? You know, trying to figure is there, you know, agreements, blah blah blah. If you capitulate in a siege when your walls are breached, it doesn't matter, it's over. You the second your walls are breached, that ends all discussion because you cannot defend yourself anymore.

SPEAKER_01 53:03

Yeah. So there's no negotiations happening.

SPEAKER_00 53:06

No negotiations.

SPEAKER_01 53:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:08

Um so the fact that Saladin let he basically let them surrender after post-walls breaking.

SPEAKER_01 53:24

Okay. And what did that look like? Like uh because I know there's a lot of you know, people talk about like the angst that's built up. Like when when you're sieging, it's usually such a long thing that when the walls break, you just kind of like it's this it's this euphoria of violence of people kind of storming in. Uh so yeah, what what did what did that moment of walls breaking look like?

SPEAKER_00 53:48

Well, Saladin was generous. Okay. Just to put it blunt. So uh there was uh Christian Populous was given 40 days to buy their freedom. Uh and he did 10 dinars for a man, five for women, and one for a child. And he gave them he gave them 40 days. So that's kind of like I got I got was Kevin Hart's bit. I got the check-ins and the savings. So so let you move around whatever you need to do to be able to do it. That's right, yeah. And then here's the other kicker. This really, I mean, Saladin was a lot more generous than I think the other warlords at the time. They would be given safe conduct to the Latin outpost of Tyre Tripoli and the right to carry away personal possessions.

SPEAKER_01 54:31

So they could move, basically.

SPEAKER_00 54:32

It's like you can't stay here, but you need to Oh, any family of any means in Jerusalem could have been like, all right, let me let me pay my little fee and we're gonna get out of your hair. The only rule was you couldn't leave with horses or weapons. That's it.

SPEAKER_01 54:50

Okay. That makes sense. So were all Christians so the Christians that bought their citizenship, they were basically allowed to stay, and the ones that didn't want to were allowed to basically be refugees elsewhere?

SPEAKER_00 55:04

Um, well, take taken into slavery. This moves further into Saladin's generosity. Okay. So uh ba he was willing to play ball. Balian, you know, who was left to charge at Jerusalem after Guy gets captured. Uh he's able to pay Saladin one lump sum of 30,000 dinars, and he secures 7,000 Christians.

SPEAKER_01 55:32

Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:33

So so Saladin's willing to like take a bargain, right?

SPEAKER_01 55:36

Yeah, I was gonna say that's a wholesale deal.

SPEAKER_00 55:40

And then Asperge notes that attempts seem to be made to arrange for amnesty for the poor.

SPEAKER_02 55:47

Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:51

So while the the the version of that uh the story that I've heard is that when Saladin walks into Jerusalem, he's thrown rose petals and you know right, right. You know, you hear this very over-romanticized, oh, and not a drop of blood was shed, and he just walked in through the front door and blah blah blah blah blah. Well, sort of getting no, he didn't just walk in. His guy still had to break the wall. Right. Secondly, uh there was a ton of bloodshed a few months before this.

SPEAKER_04 56:29

Sure, sure, sure.

SPEAKER_00 56:31

So yeah, Saladin is being remarkably generous and kind in this situation.

SPEAKER_01 56:39

But they're not rolling out the red carpet for him. Correct. And I'm sure it's still a fearful thing. Like, I mean, uh it's nice to not have to worry about some dude chopping your head off, but I mean, yeah, imagine that you and the wife suddenly have to scrounge together your your life savings. I mean, maybe not a full life savings, but you basically have to pay, or else you'll be subject to slavery, or you're forced out of this home that you probably lived in for your whole life. Because these, you know, the kingdom of Jerusalem's been around since the late 11th century. So these people were probably born there.

SPEAKER_00 57:15

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 57:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:17

And Saladin did this goes to our further just we we keep bringing back this theme of like the Muslims knew roughly how to coexist. I was gonna say get along. Let's coexist with Christians. Sure. Um they just didn't like Westerners. So when they when they took Jerusalem, they were they were debating whether to destroy the Holy Sepulchre. Oh, shoot. Wow. Yes, and cooler heads prevailed. Okay, and they said, Hey, let the let the Christians still have this. So Saladin did not raise it to the ground. Yeah, even though some people wanted to. And uh I don't remember exactly where at some point soon Saladin will also allow for pilgrims to come and visit.

SPEAKER_02 58:10

Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 58:11

So we've talked about the importance of pilgrimage to these people at this time, and Saladin is allowing that to happen still.

SPEAKER_01 58:20

You know what's interesting is we've kind of done this whole uh series through the crusades. Like one of the things one of the future events that we've referenced a lot is the Fourth Crusade and the huge tragedy of the siege of Constantinople that the Crusaders are gonna pull off. And when you think of how the First Crusade starts with a plea from the Byzantines asking for Western help, it's like, how did we get there through all this time? It really makes me wonder. Like, I do think Saladin had a mixture of goodwill, religious piety, but also political strategy, where he's like, Oh yeah, I have no problem showing favor to the eastern Christians, one, because they're less likely to make a fuss and throw revolt, but two, because they don't really like each other that much. And if I can show favor to the Eastern Christians and the Western Christians are like, what's going on? Then that helps me.

SPEAKER_00 59:19

Right. Well, I think Saladin also we'll get into this next episode when we talk about the actual th call to the Third Crusade. Right. Because that's about to happen. I think Saladin also might have wanted to not be as brutal because he I would imagine he knew that the brutality of his predecessors is what sort of sparked the call to the crusades.

SPEAKER_01 59:52

That's a good point. That's a good point. So it behooved the mistreatment. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:56

Yeah. It behooved him to be as kind as possible as he's like, now leave.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:00

Right. Because he knows there's precedence for or there's precedent for the Europeans gathering a big army and marching down. So he's like, I'm gonna assume it's gonna happen. Let's not stoke the fire with all these emotional tales of Muslims, you know, ripping open pregnant Christian women.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:20

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:21

That's really graphic. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:23

Listen, well, no, but I mean that's what they were dealing with.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:26

Those were the stories they were telling. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:28

Yeah. So uh yes, there you have it. So that is Saladin's ultimate crowning achievement. And leading into this, you will have the proper call for the Kurd Crusade, which we will do next week.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:43

Interesting, dude. Well done. Well done. And I I think I I love, you know, I'm Johnny Nuance over here. I love kind of exploring the the two sides of it, and I'm really fascinated by Asbridge's approach to be like Saladin wasn't uh, you know, he wasn't a ruthless warlord. However, he we have it uh from his own handwriting that he plans to demolish this town.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:09

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:11

He said he was going to.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:13

I will raise you to the ground. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:16

So that's that's fascinating. Oh man. Well, dude, I'm excited for the next episode then.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:20

I I can actually say I've there's there's like some momentum building about the crusades now that it's like fun to explore.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:27

I agree, I agree, yeah. Plus, like we said, this is where uh Richard the Lionheart's gonna come in. And uh I think what's interesting, which you just very, very briefly kind of hinted in your e of an Easter egg during your cold open, but this is the first crusade that's gonna heavily involve the Britons.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:46

Because they've uh typically not been super involved, they've kind of been handling their own stuff, but I think they've they were trying to fight the French. That's the honest.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:54

So the Pope was like, enough! I'm gonna extracommunicate you, stop it.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:59

Right. You know, some things, uh some things have been happening for a long time, and it's typically the British not liking the French, and vice versa, and the French not liking the Germans, and vice versa.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:08

So that's right.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:10

Um, yeah. Man, so all right. Well, I'm very interested. I'm very excited to get into it. Well done. Well done, Mr. Taylor. Good job.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:17

Thank you, thank you, sir.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:19

And thank you, dear listener, for uh for joining us. I, you know, I'm still having fun with the crusades. I can't lie, I'm having a good time. Uh let us know in the comments what you felt about this episode. Let us know in the comments. Um, I don't know how how you feel about a uh do you want a Christian military leader to have a sense of piety? Do you feel like some tension? And on the flip side, do you also want like the Muslim leader to maybe be like, is it weird to be like Saladin was this enemy of the Christians, but was also a guy sometimes of character? I don't know. How does that sit with you? How do you feel about that? All truth is God's truth. All truth is God's truth. That's right. Um, but yeah. All right, gang. Thank you guys so much. We will see you next time. Bye bye.