147. When Did Churches Begin Singing Hymns? The Legacy of Benjamin Keach

The late 17th century was a wild time for Christianity in England. 

While the Catholics and Anglicans fought to be the top dog of the land of beans and toast, Baptists quietly went about changing stuff with no one's permission. 

Benjamin Keach was such a Baptist as these. Torn between the worlds of Particular and General Baptists, Keach was an innovator of catechism and liturgy. 

But perhaps his greatest contribution, not just to the Baptist world but to the evangelical world as a whole, was his fight to popularize hymn singing during Sunday worship. 

Will he succeed? Will he be put into the stocks?! Tune in to listen!

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:53

Yep, boy. Taylor Shirley here with my best co-host in the whole wide world.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

Co-host? Co-host? My favorite co-host. Co-host? You're using the C word on me, dog. The C word. In a Christian podcast. I don't know. You're dropping the C-word like it's like it's something you love. You're a monster, dude. I hope you know that.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

I don't know what we are to each other. I thought we were co-hosts.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

Should we define our relationship real quick? I guess. I don't know. When you call me your co-host, it sounds seems subordinate. When I call you my co-host, it feels right. We're both each other's co-hosts. That's true. I don't think that's true. Well, welcome to Church Isha for Chumps, everybody. My name is Jim Salmon, and I'm here with my good friend Taylor Treadway. Mr. Silly. Mr. Silly. Mr. Silly himself. And uh hey, uh, this is our first episode that we've recorded since launching our Discord. And uh I know that 15 of you are gonna be really excited to hear this. Everyone else is not gonna care at all because you don't care about Discord. Maybe you're just about the truth and the history. And if that's true, you should probably just skip to the next chapter.

SPEAKER_01 2:09

They might not even know. They might not even know what a Discord is.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

They're like, the Bible actually speaks against Discord. Um but don't worry, we've sanctified it. We made an app about talking to each other. But it's been a blast, you know. Like just we're just launching silly theological questions at each other. We're talking about uh like we're sharing prayer requests, and it just feels it's so wholesome. It's just it's just a nice tall glass of water, you know? Yeah. It's really nice.

SPEAKER_01 2:39

What's what's been your favorite moment in the Discord?

SPEAKER_00 2:42

My favorite moment was probably when there was a very serious conversation about uh at what point aliens are sentient enough to be like to get the gospel. Like at what point do you say this is an alien that we need to kill because it's a threat, or at what point do we say we actually need to share the gospel because they're they're pretty smart and they need to be saved from their sinful ways. That was just really good. Yeah. What about you? What was your what was your favorite moment so far?

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Uh I think it's a general like a meta thing. I I'm really enjoying just seeing I'm very encouraged by the response.

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Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

I mean, it it's like popping off. There's just new messages every few hours, it seems dinging.

SPEAKER_00 3:30

Yeah, just dinging. And it's it's good. And I mean, it's cool because like we've always a lot of these are a lot of people that we've like heard from, a lot of you guys that we've heard from and like our our Instagram page, which we love, or our Spotify comments, or our YouTube comments. Shout out to YouTube, Brian Betts holding it down, my dog. But uh it's just cool to like be able to interact and talk with each other, and it feels great. I love it. I love it. Yeah, it's natural. It feels it was a natural step for CH4C. Absolutely. What's the next step? Video chat? Like a chat room, like AOL? Netflix. Netflix. It's gonna be a while, Doc.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

I think that's gonna be a long time. I'm getting my shot where we are interviewing a sheep about something that happened long before on his land.

SPEAKER_00 4:18

This is I I I hope so. Do you think do you think oh, this is a good question. Do you think we'll still have a podcast in whatever afterlife the Lord has cooked up for us? Do you think there will be content creators, or is Jesus just the only content?

SPEAKER_01 4:35

No, I I think we are wired to create. Sure. Yeah. So I I think I've even thought about the idea of like heaven could be one big podcast. Well, more like we we get to explore the cosmos infinitely in heaven. Mm-hmm. In the new heavens and the new earth, right? Right. Right. So I I don't know. I would imagine. I mean, wouldn't it be wouldn't it be cool like if there was there was podcasts or whatever the equivalent is, and we're just have to be like really, really impressive.

SPEAKER_00 5:12

Like I think it would have to be like a full sensory experience where it's like I guess that's just a conversation. I was gonna be like, it would have to be like you'd be face to face with them, you can reach out and touch them, like you can be in a room with them. And I realized, oh, that's just what talking is.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

It's just what talking is, baby.

SPEAKER_00 5:34

It's just a conversation, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:36

But yeah, no, I uh I think heaven will have creative stuff. I think we're wired to create. Yeah, well that sounds pretty exciting. Or I'm wrong, and we're just singing all the time 24-7.

SPEAKER_00 5:47

Do you think our uh like do we have to start over when we get there? Like, will we still have our backlog of episodes? Like, do you think do you think when it goes up to the cloud, it really goes up to the cloud, you know?

SPEAKER_01 6:01

No, because this is this is corrupted by things.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

Corrupted files. Oh man. Like we're all corrupted files. Dang, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:12

Dang dude I gotta I gotta say, I uh I I I I I think I'm like getting old. How so? I've been I've been now saying frequently, oh my back.

SPEAKER_00 6:29

Oh shoot. I don't know what to do with that. Hmm. Have you tried uh maybe like making it stronger?

SPEAKER_01 6:38

I've been doing stretches.

SPEAKER_00 6:40

That's good. Yeah. I mean, you know, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:46

I don't go No, I'm just kidding. They're not I refuse to participate in demonic activities, but I also don't think there's anything wrong with yoga.

SPEAKER_00 6:54

So the joke was that we both thought we were on one side and we were on the other.

SPEAKER_01 6:59

No, no. I it's just stretching. I think if you're doing like weird spiritual stuff with it, then obviously Yeah. But like it just stretches, dog. Maybe I should do yoga. Maybe. I don't know. I think I I carried a bunch of heavy stuff at the SPC annual meeting in June and all summer back's been shot. So if you are somebody who is experiencing back pains for the first time in your life, drop a comment on Spotify.

SPEAKER_00 7:29

Or hey guys, love the show. Back's been hurting since 2005. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 7:34

I would love forward to the next one. I'd love to hear your stories. But you can join the Discord. Yeah, the links the links in the bio and the links in the show notes. Yeah, you'll have to make a you'll have to make a little profile, but it's pretty pretty simple, and then you can just jump right into all the discussions.

SPEAKER_00 7:51

Taylor, what would you say about people who were concerned about maybe uh like some graphic content? Like they're like, oh, the the Trump nation. I've heard they can be pretty vulgar. Is it is it pretty bad over there?

SPEAKER_01 8:03

I don't think I've read a single swear word or seeing a single inappropriate thing on our Discord.

SPEAKER_00 8:08

Oh wow. Okay. Well that that's a load off my mind. That's good to know. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Pretty wholesome. Also, the Discord is where we're most likely going to be hosting our watch party, which is coming right up. It's about shoot, 19 days away, I believe, later on this month. And we're gonna have giveaways. Yeah, I'm not sure what's going on.

SPEAKER_01 8:28

If it was in person, we would have pizza. That's right. Yeah. But you guys can bring your own pizza to your living room. BYOP, man. That sounds awesome. But we'll do some giveaways, probably give away some copies of the books that we've been using for the Crusades. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Some relics, probably give away some relics.

SPEAKER_00 8:49

Yeah, I've got a couple. Yeah. Which podcast relics or like actual relics?

SPEAKER_01 8:56

No, I was joking. Like the actual relics, we're gonna give away like the first microphone that Thomas Duell ever used. No, I no. I was thinking like real, like here's the true cross. Oh, I see.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

Right.

SPEAKER_01 9:16

Right. Yeah. Just the finger bones of St. Peter.

SPEAKER_00 9:19

Do you think the head of John the Baptist is buried with the rest of him?

SPEAKER_01 9:24

I don't know. Isn't that one of the ones they care? Like they they cla they make different claims about.

SPEAKER_00 9:29

Yeah, yeah. Like some people say they have got him buried, other people say they have got him buried. That's so interesting. Yeah. Well dude, church history is a blast. Should we should we talk about some right now? I think we should.

SPEAKER_01 9:42

We should also let people know that you can find us on Spotify. Sure can. On Instagram. You can tell your parents that maybe you only want to listen to podcasts through Anim uh Amazon. We can find us find us on Amazon. That's right. Uh and you can check the links so you can sponsor episodes.

SPEAKER_00 10:02

That is correct. Yes. We've got lots of uh fun ways that you can integrate yourself into the experience of our podcast, ranging from us giving you a shout out to we can do a little ad read for you, as we did last week for our good friend Jackson. And uh and you can even sponsor uh an episode of Chump Talk, our monthly kind of off-topic little uh little uh cultural relevance show. So is September still up for grabs? September is, I believe. Yeah. We've got August booked and October booked, but September is uh is is ripe for the taking, as they say.

SPEAKER_01 10:38

If there's something you want specific for Christmas time, you could jump ahead and be like, I want an episode on this guy.

SPEAKER_00 10:45

Dude, imagine if your kids bundled down the stairs this Christmas and in their stocking they unwrapped a custom episode of Chump Talk, their favorite podcast. Could you imagine that's that's what Christmas is for. That's the reason for the season, Taylor. That's what it's all about. They don't want air, they don't want AirPods, they don't want Roblox, they don't want Breath of the Wild. No. They don't want that stuff. Yeah. Alright.

SPEAKER_01 11:13

Well, let us begin. Let's do it. Welcome to everyone who had the sense to skip the banter. We're glad you're here. Also join the Discord. Cue the music. Bum bum. Infinite God. Though you inhabit all eternity, how blessed we are that you would dwell with us. Benjamin Geach put his quill down. This will do nicely, he thought to himself. What a perfect song to sing at the end of the worship service. Yes. The members of Horsley Down will surely love this one. The old preacher got up from his chair. The sun had set some time ago. He knew he should sleep, but he was not quite tired yet. He made his way down the stairs moving quietly. It would not be kind to force his nocturnal habits onto his family. One ghoulish present whe wandering the house in the middle of the night is enough, he grumbled under his breath. He reached the landing of the stairs and carefully opened the front door. Benjamin Keach ventured into the darkness of London. Some nights his walks had no purpose. The old Baptist would wander the streets of London aimlessly before returning home. But tonight he walked with a purpose, for he knew where he was going. His path was poorly lit, but the moon was sufficient. He could make out the figure of a m a man across the street, strump stumbling along and clearly drunk. Poor degenerate heathen. Yet, still made in the image of God, native his gospel, he kept this thought to himself. He turned a corner, and the old preacher arrived at his destination. There it was, still standing after all these years. The old pillory, faintly lit by the moon, sat silently and still. But much to Benjamin's surprise, there appeared to be a tenant. He approached, and the occupant of the pillory looked up, stirred by the sound of footsteps. Come to mock me in the dead of night the man wheezed out. Probably not, Keach replied. What did you do? Made a funny about King James flatulence and some pearl cutchin' clutching hag toad on me. Well then I shall abstain from the mocking, Keach replied, meeting his eyes. I will, however, subject you to my personal reflections on this old pillory and the time I spent in it. The man's eyes widened. What did a proper bloke like you do to end up in here? The man said. When will they release you? Keach asked. In the morning, assuming I don't make any more funnies at the king's expense. Benjamin Keach sat down next to the man. A preacher loves a captive audience. I will tell you about the time I spent in this exact spot and why. But first, allow me to sing to you a hymn I just wrote.

SPEAKER_00 14:10

End Oh, I thought you were gonna get into the music. Oh no, I Is it a hymn that we all know, Taylor?

SPEAKER_01 14:18

No, his stuff isn't as it's a his stuff's not like Charles Wesley. Oh, okay. Not a great not a great hymn, that sounds like. I don't know. I mean I I don't know. I don't know. I don't know the history of like uh part of it is just the tradition never really grabbed on to it. And that's part of what we're talking about tonight, right? Okay, yeah. How him singing was introduced into church for the most part. So Benjamin Keach is born 1640, died 1704. Uh that story in London that I made up the that was I made that take place about 1701, towards the end of his life, somewhere in there. Uh but yes, as the story alludes, Benjamin Keach was actually, as a young man, uh uh sentenced to time in the pillory. And if you don't know what a pillory is, that's those like wooden stalks that they lock you up in.

SPEAKER_00 15:25

Where you have to hang how you have to hang at like a 90 degree angle. Yep. That's awful. Because he was singing hymns?

SPEAKER_01 15:33

It wasn't because of that.

SPEAKER_00 15:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 15:35

Oh uh we'll we'll get into it. He didn't deserve it though. Oh. Did he also tell fart jokes about the king?

SPEAKER_00 15:45

He was also quite a quite a roofie. No.

SPEAKER_01 15:49

So tonight is gonna be an interesting episode because we're gonna do a little bit of a biograph on Benjamin Keach and kind of talk. We're gonna touch on what late 17th century England looked like. I am sure we will do a series on this and kind of the uh the rise of the Baptist, the creation of the Baptist. I'm sure we will do that one day. But we're just gonna sort of touch and go, and then we're gonna look uh pretty heavily into Benjamin Keach's work, where he makes a whole long argument for uh him singing in church, and it's called the breed the breach repaired in God's worship.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

Hmm. So he was kind of staging a breach, you know? Like there's a breach in our singing patterns, right?

SPEAKER_01 16:39

Uh yeah, I mean that's probably part of the I know you're trying to be that's the worst joke you've ever made, but uh I he was gosh, he was trying to fix that.

SPEAKER_02 16:53

So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:55

Okay, so Benjamin Keach, as I said, fairly influential Baptist in the late 17th century. Uh which a lot of the guys, just to keep this in the historical context, a lot of the guys that we talk about, uh uh Andrew Fuller, we did an episode on him, William Carey, some of you might know his name, the first you know, guy who started the mission movement. Uh those guys are all 18th century. So Benjamin Keach. Yes. But so Benjamin Keach is their like grandpappy. Okay. Okay. He came before their fathers type thing. Interesting. All right.

SPEAKER_00 17:39

So who are who is there anyone in the 17th century that we would know about?

SPEAKER_01 17:46

Well, this is like the Stuart in England, possibly, this is like the Stuart uh rebellion or whatever it's called, where they reinstate um or the the Stuart Restoration. Okay. So that and it's kind of like the downfall of the Puritans. Oh, interesting. Okay. The biggest thing that happens in the 17th century is that act of tolerance that passes, and then you get the 1689 London Baptist Confession.

SPEAKER_00 18:17

Okay. Oh, okay, yeah. Which is which is pretty big. And and like I remember the running joke is always that they pretty much just copied the Westminster, which is what the most Presbyterians went off. They just took out the baby baptism. Okay. So this is like the birth of Reformed Baptistry.

SPEAKER_01 18:33

I think that's a great it doesn't even necessarily have to be Reformed. So because as we're gonna see, um Benjamin Keach doesn't even start as a particular Baptist. That's our term, right? So you have the general Baptist and the particular Baptist. Particular Baptists believe in particular atonement, general Baptists believe in general atonement. So Benjamin Keach is actually uh he starts it, he gets his start in his early life as a general Baptist. But yes, to answer your question, this is this time period is basically the birth of the Baptists.

SPEAKER_00 19:05

So that's inter okay. So this is a little bit of a tangent, but that's very interesting. So what you're you're basically describing particular and general Baptists as either Calvinist or Arminian using modern terms, right? Yes, yeah. So that's like the the Baptists have literally been fighting about predestination since they were since they were spawned. Since the beginning. That's fascinating. Okay, that's very interesting. That's very interesting. Okay, carry on.

SPEAKER_01 19:31

Yes, so so this is the birth of the Baptists. Uh that's not that's not the series. Maybe that'll be the name of the series we do it. And before you guys roll your eyes and say, Oh, here's Taylor again with his Baptists, let me just say this is I think you can make an argument, the birth of evangelicalism, of what will become evangelicalism.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

So it's this is relevant to all of us. Because at this point, I would wager nobody was singing hymns, right? Not really. Yeah. Okay. No, because you're not sure. So this isn't just Baptist niche history. This is a Baptist guy whose actions are gonna inf uh impact a lot of Protestant culture.

SPEAKER_01 20:20

Yeah. Cause to kind of roughly frame this you have the Reformation 1517, and we all know the the world basically explodes from that. And the pieces get settled pretty quickly. You have Zwingli kind of doing his thing, and you have Luther, and then Calvin comes along. The English Reformation happens not long after that, and the you know, Anglican church is born, and the dust kind of settles, and obviously, you know, Cromwell comes along with the Puritans and takes kind of takes over England with that, but that was short-lived, and so the Anglicans are back in charge. So you kind of have your head honchos, you have the Anglicans, you have you know, basically the Presbyterians and like Calvinists and uh some other branches of and Lutherans in the United States.

SPEAKER_00 21:19

Are we talking in in England or just in the Protestant world? We're talking in the Protestant world.

SPEAKER_01 21:24

Oh, okay, okay. Because then you say, well, where are the Anabaptists? They're all like sequestered in the hills of Holland, effectively.

SPEAKER_00 21:31

And they're not quite as uh uh what's the word? They're not quite as organized. Like Anabaptists, isn't that kind of a general term for anyone who doesn't who kind of they're like they're like kind of rogue, is that right? Or is are they more than that?

SPEAKER_01 21:46

You're asking a fantastic question. It's hard to categorize free church movements like this. Okay. Yeah. Because by their very nature, they're like, no, I'm not like them. We split off from them last year because we disagreed over whether we should wear a certain type of shoes in church, you know? Sure. So we had a split. Uh and the the Anabaptists are, I think laudable. I think they they were uh they wrote some really beautiful stuff and they have a rich tradition. We have to understand though that Anabaptists are not uh our understanding of Baptists did not evolve from Anabaptists. So I heard somebody say last week at uh camp shout out Pastor Trey. Pastor Trey pointed out that uh, you know. He used the phrase the we're working with the same source material. So some of so some of the same convictions that the same hermeneutics that led these guys and Benjamin Keach to be willing to break away from the Church of uh England and from the Puritans, uh the you know, break away from them is the same sort of hermeneutic principles that led the Anabaptists, Felix Manns and Conrad Greble, those guys at the beginning of the Reformation to break away from Zwingli.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

So Well, the Anabaptists were all they they were punk rock, you know. They were just we're not gonna do your chord progressions. We're not gonna take it. Right. And the Baptists, the actual Baptists, just took a hundred years to come to the same conclusions. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:28

Exactly. So good. Okay, that's good. Uh the fact that we kind of set our story in 12 minutes is fantastic. So now Okay. Benjamin Keach. So he was born, like I said, February 29th, 1640. You know, I just made the that's leap year day, isn't it? Leap year day. Oh yeah, yeah, it is. It is. So he probably died at the age of like seven or something. Poor guy. Just about just a babe. Just a boy, he's just a boy. Yeah, so February 29th, 1640, and uh in Buckinghamshire. And uh his parents were poor, as are most Baptists, and uh Keach actually worked as a tailor. Whoa! Shout out Taylor Treadway. Yeah, he worked as a me. Poor guy. Yeah. So he was actually Although he was he was baptized as uh a baby in the Church of England, uh while he was a teenager, um scripture convinced him uh to abandon that and do believers' baptism. And he was baptized by a fellow named John Russell at the age of fifteen as a general Baptist. Okay. Or you might hear us say GB.

SPEAKER_00 24:54

A GB and then the general Baptist, I know we're going back to the terms a lot, listener. I apologize. A general Baptist would more so be the Arminian flavored, correct? Yep. Someone who believes that Jesus died for the whole world and uh there's no one was selected into salvation. It's kind of free game for everybody.

SPEAKER_01 25:15

I I would say that's correct. And I would say these are not super niche terms um in in in her church history. It would behoove us to familiar ourselves with it, familiarize ourselves with them. Sure. Because we're gonna run into GB and PB a lot. Okay. So yes. Okay, so he actually began preaching at 19 in 1659 and uh he started as a general Baptist preacher. And at some point when he moved in l to London, something changed and he became a Calvinist basically. Okay. Uh I'm sure somebody has a dissertation buried somewhere on the evolution of Benjamin Keach, where they analyze like five diaries and come up with a good answer, but I don't have that answer. I just know some points.

SPEAKER_00 26:14

So, like so also another I'll I'll ask. One, was it common to flip-flop? Two, aside from soteriology, i.e. the study of Christ's salvation, um, how different were the were the two groups? Like, did they worship was their liturgy different? Did they organize differently, or were they just one was gonna pre-like if could you swap one pastor to another, and would anyone tell the difference? It depends on the time and the place.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

That's very fair. That is the problem. That's why studying Baptist history is so hard. Because basically, any question you ask, the answer will be it depends. Sure, sure, sure. Yeah. Even when I use that definition of like categorizing Baptists, and when you're talking about the Anabaptists, and say I said it's really hard to like uh place these guys in boxes, anybody in the free church movement, even the free church term has different like it depends. What do you mean? So yeah. This way it's it's fun, but it is the answer is it depends. Okay. Okay. All right. Now we're gonna get to the first part. Probably the thing that you know piqued all y'all's interest, which is what did he do to get pillaried? And when I was initially researching Benjamin Keach's story, uh I didn't I thought they were using that term pilloried in the modern sense, which is just like if cancelled is probably the new term for pilloried. Sure, sure. You know, he got canceled.

SPEAKER_00 28:01

Ah, what do you do? Yeah, you know, people really didn't like him. It's like, no, they actually put his head and wrists into a bunch of wooden blocks.

SPEAKER_01 28:09

Yeah, and I I I looked up that I looked that up, and and that's kind of what stemmed my little creative writing is you could be pilloried for being a nuisance, for disrespecting the king, for anything, really. Free speech didn't exist. Imagine how your background is. But it still doesn't in England. Yeah. You interrupted my good joke for your bad joke.

SPEAKER_00 28:32

For a better joke. Your back would be demolished, bro. You'd have gout in five seconds. That's those two aren't related.

SPEAKER_01 28:42

That what if they what if they had me in the pillory and they're like, you have to eat a bunch of high fat beef. This is 70% ground beef tacos. And when you get gout, we'll let you out. Yeah. Yeah. Gosh. And we'll know if you're faking it. We'll know you're dude. Yeah, I know. That's crazy. So mean. And the only thing you can drink is like Sprite. Which is the corn the corn syrup. Yeah. Okay. So get this. Do you want to know what he did to get arrested? Of course. He wrote a children's catechism. Oh, okay. Okay. Six so this is 1664. So he's still a young man. He's 24 at that point. Uh and he the children's catechism was called the child's instructor. We don't have any copies of it today. Uh, but basically the authorities said this this has schismatical teaching in it. And uh uh the outcome of his trial was a twenty-pound fine, two weeks in prison. Gosh. Time in the pillory, and do you want to know why we don't have any copies of the child's instructor? They burned them all.

SPEAKER_00 30:05

They burned them all. Well, this is so strange. So he was under he was under civic punishment for doing a church thing. Was what where was England at right now? Were they were they being run by by uh Puritans or Baptists?

SPEAKER_01 30:23

This was the Stuart Restoration, so the Anglicans were back in charge.

SPEAKER_00 30:28

So they they just they probably didn't like most of the things that the Baptists were doing, right? No.

SPEAKER_01 30:33

And this was King so this was all under King Charles II. And this happens. Stuart Restoration happens in 1660. It is a fascinating time in England's history. Uh King Charles II is uh, you know, he's he's simultaneously King Charles II of England and he's King Charles I of Scotland simultaneously. Oh, okay. Yeah, because he's king of both. Yeah. So uh yeah that happens, he gets in trouble for uh, you know, basically telling children that when you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and make that decision for yourself, you can be baptized. And they're like, oh, tie time to the pillar. You know, we could camp and really talk about it. I don't think we should. We should just let the listeners come to their own conclusions.

SPEAKER_00 31:33

I'm very I'm very curious. Yeah, but yeah, we can we can we can keep it moving and grooving, that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 31:38

Yeah. I just if we were to do like a 30-second warning, uh when you mix church and state like this, this is the kind of stuff that happens. Is it not, John?

SPEAKER_00 31:53

It's it's hard. Christians end up falling under the sword more than more than heretics do, but that's an episode that we've maybe already done. But carry on.

SPEAKER_01 32:05

Yes. Okay. So now Benjamin has this behind him. He'll still actually have persecution. I remember when I was browsing his biography stuff, I found a story, and I cannot remember specifics. It was like he almost got uh he was about to be trampled. Like they tied him up, and they were about to have their this group of guys was about to have their horses run him over. And uh Yeah, and it was it's not like he's doing anything. It was because he's like just preaching. Uh and then and then they're like the captain of the guard like stopped them. Uh-huh. But they were, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:40

That is so strange. That is so I mean, and this had to be an interesting time period because you're you're what a hundred some years into the Reformation. So you've got lots of Catholics in your population, but you've also got Anglicans, uh English Presbyterians, the Reformed, like the Baptists, like there's there's a lot of there's a lot of seasonings in that pot, you know, and they may not exactly vibe with each other.

SPEAKER_01 33:08

Yeah, and whoever's in power just typically abuses that. Right, right. Which is why I think the Lord has, you know, blessed the I think I truly think the Anabaptists are a blessed little religious group. Yeah. Because they're always like Mennonites, dude. Does anyone have a problem with Mennonites? I don't I've never heard anyone have one.

SPEAKER_00 33:31

Right. Theologically I have, but you know, neither here nor there.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

Right. Just sort of this general, like, yeah, they're pretty nice. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So 1668, you're not gonna believe this. You're gonna all of you dear listeners, and John Salman, you guys are gonna love this. He becomes pastor at Horsley Down Church in South London. Do you want to guess who the next pastor of that church is? Or shortly after? The next pastor. John Bunyan. You were close. John Gill. Dang. Okay. John Gill. And then fast forward another few generations, you want to guess who's the pastor of this same congregation? Hundreds of years.

SPEAKER_00 34:19

Charles Spurgeon. Let's go. It always goes back to Spurgeon, man. That's an easy one.

SPEAKER_01 34:23

Well, you you know what you probably remembered? I bet you remembered from the Spurgeon episode. I bet you remembered the tie between John Gill and Spurgeon. Oh isn't that crazy? Spurgeon obviously would move, the building would move, and they'd become the Metropolitan Tabernacle and all that. But this is that same church all the way back then.

SPEAKER_00 34:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:48

No, it's pretty sweet. And then a couple other things that was fascinating about him. So he was one of the signers for the second London Baptist Confession of Faith.

SPEAKER_00 34:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 34:59

So you gotta think for him going from being locked in a pillory and then almost dying and being murdered to seeing the act of tolerance passed and signing the second London Baptist Confession of Faith, that that's a pretty big jump.

SPEAKER_00 35:21

Yeah. Yeah. I want to ask a question that I you might be mad at me for asking, but I love asking questions that you may or may not be able to answer. Did Anglicans have a preference between the uh the general or particular Baptists? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 35:39

That is a very good question. Yeah. I can't imagine why they would prefer one or the other.

SPEAKER_00 35:47

My only thought is like, and I'm I'm thinking specifically of like them the an Anglican regime punishing him for this children's catechism, is that if he wrote a catechism targeted towards children teaching particular Baptist, i.e. Calvinist views, that might clash with their views of scripture more so than a general Baptist.

SPEAKER_01 36:11

No, it was his teaching about baptism. Oh, oh, so it was gonna be out regarded.

SPEAKER_00 36:17

Yeah, it's they were they wanted they did this was a pre this was teaching against infant baptism, which of course is their bread and butter.

SPEAKER_01 36:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 36:25

Very interesting.

SPEAKER_01 36:26

Okay, okay and I'm gonna go on record and I'm gonna say, are you all ready? I'm I'm ready. Christian on per Christian persecution throughout post-Reformation is almost entirely related to infant baptism. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 36:46

That's crazy, but it's true. But it's yes, it's not a fun fact.

SPEAKER_01 36:51

You know, always like fun fact. That's like depressing fact.

unknown 36:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:55

It makes me wonder if there's like a tie between in in a Christian s society, if there's like a tie between like citizenship and baptism of an infant. Like it's not just a theological thing.

SPEAKER_01 37:09

Don't you wonder anymore, my sweet friend. Because you're exactly right. No, I was right. Oh, let's read it. You don't have to wonder at all. That's exactly why they get annoyed about it. That's so interesting. And then you could you can honestly make the claim like, well, these guys are probably not regenerate Christians if they're willing to, like, you know. I don't know what to do with Zwingli man. I don't know what to do. Wrote some really beautiful things, did some great things, and then also like drowned people for wanting to get baptized again. Yeah, then picked a fight with Spain and got mowed down on the battlefield. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:43

So people are complicated as we're learning in the crusades. That's true. So that's fascinating. I I I love I love you you pointing that out. I I've never thought about how central baptism was to like how that was often the linchpin for people drowning other Christians. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:04

I mean if if you have a baby and you want the census to happen, they're entering society. That's what the christening is. Right. It's an entering into society, effectively, for these people. So up a cup come these like poor, uh dumb quote unquote Baptists come along and they're like, Well, we're not gonna do that anymore. All the rich elites are basically like, Yes, you will.

SPEAKER_00 38:32

They're like, you should wait until you're old enough to choose your baptism. Yeah. That's kinda kinda crazy when you think about the implications there.

SPEAKER_02 38:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 38:42

And I love it. Also, also, by by your own statement, proves that Baptists have caused more disruption in the past 500 years than maybe anybody.

SPEAKER_01 38:54

I love that that's your takeaway. I will not I will I will give, I'm not gonna out the guy that said this, but I think this is hilarious. I was talking about an Anabaptist with somebody, and he gets quiet, kind of looks around, and he goes, Look, they were causing a lot of problems. And I'm like, Are you saying they deserved it? And he's like, No, no, not not exactly. But yes, I'm saying that they deserved it.

SPEAKER_00 39:26

Well, it's like it's like uh it's like that meme from Back to the Future where it's like, Well, you don't like it, but your parents are really gonna dig it. Like that was the Anabaptists. They were just too early. They were just too early, too soon, too fast. But also, they're still wrong as as are Baptists. I should have it on record as a as a proper reformed person. Yeah, there you go.

SPEAKER_01 39:47

But uh I don't know how disruptive Baptists were being in England. I do know Anabaptists in the in mainland Europe were doing things like waltzing into churches during service and saying, I'm preaching now.

SPEAKER_00 40:07

Oh my gosh, dude. I maybe maybe before we even do the full Greater Reformation, we should just do like a mini tease series where we just do like like a month of Anabaptist stories.

SPEAKER_01 40:20

Oh, that'd be so fun. That'd be so fun. They you know they they fit within the Greater Reformation as well. So honestly, listeners, if you have any ideas about how you'd like the Reformation series to be broken up, uh it's not gonna be for a while, but that'd be a fun thing to throw in the Discord. Like definitely. Should you cover because you can kind of cover it through traditions or you can cover it from like a chronological timeline and your or nation nations, basically.

SPEAKER_00 40:48

Yeah. We could start with Germany. I mean, I I'm honestly really fascinated by the the countries that really didn't have any form of reformation because of how tight their infrastructure is.

SPEAKER_01 40:59

Spain is one that's like really well, and like remember, Spain's we're so off topic, but this point we love history so much. Yeah, we're just like goofing out. Spain, Spain just like skyrockets in power after that. Yeah, because everyone else just split right down the middle.

SPEAKER_00 41:16

But they are really good at killing heretics in Spain. That's why the Inquisition was so popping. Which I also want to do series of the Inquisition. I don't want to do. We have so much time back to Keach. Let's do Keats.

SPEAKER_01 41:27

That's right. Benjamin Keach. We have returned, dear friend. Okay. So look, he's also extremely prolific. He wrote a ton of books. You can look them up. We have a lot of copies of them. But we are going to be looking into what he wrote about congregational hymn singing. So at this point, it's not that singing wasn't taking place, even though that is something he addresses, because there are some Baptists that push against singing at all. But the ones that do sing, what do you think they sang, John Simon? Probably psalms. Yeah. Exclusive.

SPEAKER_00 42:04

Exclusively psalms. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:05

Exclusive psalmity. Mm-hmm. Which is so funny because that still exists today. We are small markets. You yeah, but we're like aware of a church in Tucson that does it, you know?

SPEAKER_00 42:17

Yeah, that's true. That's true. So um the Catholics. Okay, so this is another thing I think it's interesting. So Catholics they had developed over the years liturgies like John Chrysostom, even though that was more in the East and St. Basil, like, and they had their own hymns, but they were not they were not like amazing grace hymns. They were very different. But the cat but it's it's worth saying that the the OG high churches, like the Orthodox and Catholics, were not exclusively singing Psalms, is that right? Right. Martin Luther wrote A Mighty Fortress.

SPEAKER_01 42:57

Right, right. So at some point during the Reformation and the regulative principle got worked out, a lot of Protestants landed on exclusive psalmity. Okay, interesting. Okay. And remember, so the regulative principle is the idea that the Bible regulates what we can and cannot do in worship. So I I think uh this this is gonna annoy. If we have any like hardcore reform bros, I I apologize for what I'm about to say. I would say John and I probably follow the regulative principle, because we're not gonna do anything that we think is contrary to what scripture teaches in service. Correct me if I'm wrong speaking for you, but I feel like we've talked about this before. But it's like children's church time fits within the regulative principle. I mean, it does. Well, you're teaching children, right? Like you're the the the teaching is still happening.

SPEAKER_00 44:05

Yeah, but I think a real a real regulative principle reformed bro would say that if it's not explicitly in the scriptures, then we shouldn't be doing it. Which is why they limit their practices to that Ephesians verse, which is uh psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. So they would say having a children's time is not biblical, therefore we won't do it, which is why a lot of the more Reformed churches are all about fully integrated worship. Um I'm not talking about splitting the children off. We're just talking about teaching the children in general. Like, yeah, you know, like children's time. That could be that could be fair.

SPEAKER_01 44:42

But I have heard regulative principal guys say, no, that's not okay. Like doing the have the children come up for a time. And I'm just and this gets into actually the kind of the crux of Keach's problem. So you have you have these guys that are saying, no, we're not commanded to sing. And Keach comes along, and in his book, the full title, here it is, The Breach Repaired in God's Worship or Singing of Psalms, Hymns, and Spiritual Songs proved to be an holy uh an holy ordinance of Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_00 45:14

Hmm. Okay. Okay. And this was a good thing. So he's like developing a full philosophy here. He's not just saying we should do this. He's saying there's a there's an extensive reason why we should do this, and I'm gonna say what it is.

SPEAKER_01 45:26

Yeah, I put the link to the work in the Discord under Book Recos if you guys want to take a look. It's on Internet Archives, so you can read it for yourself. Um It is going to be fun if you've never read 16th and 17th century or sorry, 17th and 18th century English. It will be quite fun for you. No, it's their S's look their S's are written differently and they look like F's.

SPEAKER_00 45:56

Uh oh, okay. Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 45:58

So it's like it it your brain can before it can adjust to it will be like thinging is how you'll how you'll see it. Oh, I see. Okay. Mm-hmm. So uh this is what he kind of starts with this in the book. So are we good to start? I know we're doing great on time. No, yeah, keep going. I'm I'm fine. Any more Okay, alright. So we're moving we're moving into his book. So it may seem strange to some wise and learned men that I begin here. Possibly they will say there is no need to speak a word about this. For all the word or all the world are agreed in the case, all know what it is to sing as well as they know what it is to speak. Though this be true, yet I find a necessity to open this act of the bodily organ as it as will appear by what follows, for some men it seems, are so confounded in their thoughts that they do not know what singing is. So the argument that they're dealing with is, well, what is singing? And in the same way, I want you guys to think, if what's happening here is like if someone came along and said, Don't pray out loud, only pray inside.

SPEAKER_00 47:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 47:23

So singing in their minds, in some of these guys' minds, is something that happens inside. You're not commanded to pray out or to sing out loud. Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 47:35

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 47:36

And then you say, What about Ephesians, where it says encourage each other with him songs and spiritual songs? Do you know what the verb is there? Um, no. Is it like exort?

SPEAKER_00 47:51

Like commands? It's it's la leo. Okay. Which is speak in Greek. Like you gotta say it's it's it's audible. You gotta say it out loud. Yeah, but not sing. It's oh I see. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01 48:06

So I even and I I I might have been Balthazar Hubmeyer, one of the Anabaptist commentaries I had been reading, like he was writing he was writing on that exact topic, and he goes into great detail about what La Leo means. And so that's even though he was Anabaptist and across the pond. Well, no, we're across the pond. He was across the what do they call that? The street? What do they call that? The channel. I don't know. The channel, yeah. He's across the channel. Uh but nonetheless, he that's that same argument. And he's making that argument a hundred plus years before Benjamin Keach is dealing with it. So that had been in the water for a long time, surprisingly. Okay. And so we do want we do want we try to be generous, right? Yeah. So that's where they're coming from. And then they're they are trying to follow the word of God as best they could. So the spoiler, well, we have more pieces of this to read and talk about, but the spoiler of the the argument is Benjamin Keach wins. And he convinces people that follow the regulative principle that you actually should be singing in church. Okay. Because that is what the Bible says. And his whole book, and it's not thin, his whole book is like every page is just filled with arguments for why the Bible says what it says. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 49:34

So you were saying, just just to be just to make sure I'm on the same page, that there was so regulative principle, they were only singing the psalms. This was exclusive psalmity across the board amongst, I would imagine, English Protestants. And they and a lot of them weren't even singing aloud. They were just kind of like experiencing the music. But they weren't.

SPEAKER_01 50:03

I I don't know how they handled the psalm singing. Some of them didn't sing at all. Sure, sure, sure. Some of them sang psalms. Mm-hmm. And Benjamin Keach and a handful of other weirdos started weirdos to the at the time, is what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00 50:20

Oh, and so those some of them didn't sing literally, there was no music during during worship. Wow. Okay. Correct. And I I can't imagine I'm not even sure if there's anyone I know of RP dub these days who would completely not sing at all. I know of I know of a cappella churches where they don't have any instruments, but that's the most radical thing I can think of. That's it, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 50:45

I have I have a little bit on that here. Sure. So let's just keep moving. I got some more quotes that we can talk about. So he says this. Now, if to sing God's praise were not the duty of all men, it would follow God hath given them one faculty in that member for no use. That's a pretty interesting. That's an argument from nature, right? Sure, yeah. So I but if that's your only argument making that's weak.

SPEAKER_00 51:12

But then he says, if God has given us the ability to sing, then why would we not sing for him? Right.

SPEAKER_01 51:18

Yeah. But of use it is, and men will use it too. They will sing, and say I they may, name more they ought, but not to the dishonor of God, not filthy or vain or foolish songs, but such as may be to the glory and honor of his name who made all creatures and things for his own praise. Golly They just had away with words back then, didn't they? They did. Yeah. Yes. Then he says this this is uh later on in the work. To which let me add my thoughts without offense. I am persuaded for several reasons, since this is so clear an ordinance in God's word that the baptized churches who lie short in the practice of singing psalms will never thrive to such a degree as our souls long to see them, to the honor of the holy God and credit of our sacred profession, and joy and comfort to those who are truly spiritual among us. So he's saying your church is not gonna do well if you don't sing. Yeah. Because he says, he says, this is an ordinance from God. Which is interesting because Baptist Benjamin Keach, two years before he published this, signed the London Baptist Confession, which says that there's only two ordinances. Right. Baptism and communion. Right. So I think he's willing to play ball and say, Hey. You can at least be a Christian and not sing. But he's saying, Your church ain't gonna thrive if you're not singing, baby.

SPEAKER_00 53:01

Yeah. And that's that's an interesting thing. That isn't because I I almost wonder if he uses the term ordinance as a little bit of an exaggeration, but I mean he's basically saying, I mean, ordinance is like Protestant for a sacrament, which in a sacrament is uh like a physical embodiment of a spiritual blessing. And he's basically making that argument, like singing is a way that we can physically express a spiritual thing of beauty, and to neglect that means that if you don't sing in a public in a in a communal setting, then your communal setting will suffer as a result, which is it's kind of square. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:41

Yeah. Ordinance is an odd kind of topic, because you're right, it is sort of the Baptist version of the sacraments. Because we don't believe that anything uh you're you're not being like dispensed grace in that moment in the same way that someone who treats it more sacramentally would. But obviously, it's still a blessing to partake in ordinances. And so uh Baptists have pretty much historically landed on the two ordinances, but then there are other Baptists, we keep talking Anabaptists are popping up. They there's like different branches of Anabaptists that have like seven ordinances. There's like, you know, I think I've joked about the footwashing Baptists, like right, where that's one of their ordinances. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. That's right. So kind of the nice thing about this though, and I understand that it's chaotic. And for all the Orthodox guys chuckling to themselves as they listen to this, and they're like, Man, you guys are a mess. I know, I know. We are we are a mess. And I I hear that. And so this is why it's so chaotic. And this once again is why when you ask a specific question, it's like it depends. Sure. Because what what is an ordinance? Well, Benjamin Keach would say singing is an ordinance. But then I also signed the London Baptist Confession of Faith that says there's only two ordinances, of which singing is not one of them.

SPEAKER_00 55:07

I mean, this is why Protestantism, I think, is just like I you can make a big argument about whether it's the rightest path of Christianity, but it's definitely the most interesting because I think that because the splinters exist in so many areas, there's just so much, there is so much to explore. But also, like, I think you can see a lot of Prat Protestant wings that do things very differently, and it's it's very rarely that you're like, oh, this is an evil thing that they've incorporated. It's usually like, oh, this is kind of off, but I get what they're trying to do, you know. Right.

SPEAKER_01 55:44

And it's honestly, dude. If you and I, for some reason, let's pretend you, me, Brandy, and Annie all ended up living in the middle of Appalachia, and there was no other church around except for a foot washing Baptist church. It's not like we if if that's the only difference, really theologically, it's not like we can't go there. Like I could still worship there. Yeah, these people are still Christians. And you're right, it's so fascinating because if we're it's it's it's sad and fascinating and hilarious, just the splits and the fracturing over time, and then you know what's a super big deal to some people is not a super big deal to others. And so yes, yes, and so this is one of them at this time, the singing. And so I don't know. If if I had to take a guess, if I had to take a guess, I would imagine singing will become another point of debate in Baptist circles within the next hundred years.

SPEAKER_00 56:45

I do. What do you what do you think?

SPEAKER_01 56:47

The split's already the split's already happening.

SPEAKER_00 56:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 56:51

What do you think? Is it between hymns and and contemporary songs? I don't know if it will be that. I think it will be probably more lyrical content. I think you might see more people that are hardlined. Because it starts with hard lines, right? Mm-hmm, we're not doing that and we're not going to talk about it. We're not going to attempt to reason with it because we don't like it. Uh, you know, maybe using uh certain lyrics of uh personal pronouns for me where like we are the subject of the song. I could see that be ki beginning to become that's a reasonable thing in some people's minds to draw a hard line at. Interesting. And then you can just go from there. Uh I don't know exactly. I'm not a I I'm a historian. I'm not a fortune teller.

SPEAKER_00 57:35

That's not a seer. Yeah. I wonder I mean, I I thought of saying this first almost as a joke, but then I walked it back a little bit. But like uh this was probably a bigger deal when guys like Beautiful Eulogy and Shy Lin were really popular and very theologically sound. But I was like, yeah, I wonder if there's churches where they're like, because like when Shylin, who's a reformed rapper, if you guys aren't familiar, he was a pastor of a church, they would do kind of hip-hop inspired worship sets, not to be irreverent, but because that was the language of the people that they were with. So I was almost like, I wonder if there's gonna be like a debate of like you can't you can't have rap in your worship songs. But I mean, if the if the Western culture continues to evolve or to include all like other cultures, like it's very likely that could be a conversation of what that looks like.

SPEAKER_01 58:31

I think for now, my my prediction as a historian, not a prophet, is that I don't think people care at all right now about musical styles. I think they care so much more about lyrical content.

SPEAKER_02 58:48

That's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 58:49

And and not not to say like they can be legalistic about it, though. That's that's kind of the thing. There's just not a legalism about the style right now.

SPEAKER_00 58:58

Yeah. There's a legal question, yeah. And I and this is a little bit off topic, but it's also not. I have an answer in my mind, but what do you think in your career? Because listener, Taylor's very modest about this, but this is a very important subject for him because Taylor's been a worship leader since uh I think 1993. Um so what do you see as the most controversial mainstream worship song that you've had to contend with? I already have the guess in my mind. I think we're gonna think of the same thing. Say it on three.

SPEAKER_01 59:36

One, two, three, reckless love. Yeah, yeah. So we sang that at my old church, and I I always prefaced it with, you know, God's love looks reckless to us from uh a human standpoint. He's not if if if if if we're thinking about God stewarding his resources fairly and well, he's terrible at it, right? Like which thank the Lord. Thank the Lord He's like that. Yeah. Yes. Uh yeah. And so I kind of would like preface the song with that a few times, and then when I did it, I did it like the third time in like, you know, whatever, three months. And I had uh one of my youth leaders came up to me, he says, Hey Taylor, great, great worship. Hey, by the way, if you say anything like that again, I'm just gonna kill you. Because he was just so annoyed at hearing it. He's like, How often you had to like give that little disclaimer. Yeah, he was like funny. We get it, bud. I just I don't sing it at my new church.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:34

Really? Okay. Yeah. Not new anymore. We've been there for three years, but uh we don't sing more of a stickler about it for a while, mostly because I think that was just the circle that I was in. But I don't know, man. It's like God God himself in the Bible describes himself from like he's the father in the prodigal son, Jesus calls himself like a mother hen, he refers to himself, and in so many different like allegories and analogies, like you can find one where there's an appearance of recklessness going to it. Like the prodigal son. The prodigal son is the perfect example. Yeah, I think that if you're walking away thinking God is such a wild and crazy teenage, you know, carefree kind of guy, like that's silly. But I mean, I don't know. I think there's more than enough room to have some imagination without changing the the dynamic nature of God. Like I I could be a stickler and sticklers kill art.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:36

We get around singing we still sing it, but we sing the chorus in Spanish sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:42

So just nobody understands it. Well for the Spanish.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:46

No, no, the word reckless isn't in the Spanish translation. Oh, okay. Well, it's what do you know what word it is? I can't remember off the top of my head.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:55

That's actually hysterical, though, that you would take the controversial part of the song and just make it the bilingual part.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:01

It's a beautiful song. We have Gary on the saxophone playing like a good song. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:07

That's the hard part. It's like it's a great thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:09

Well, and that's that's part of the reason why I think we are going to enter another time of like controversy with music. Yeah. Because I see it brewing right now. I've participated in it, and it's mild. But these things are like snowballs. They don't it's starting, the pendulum has started swinging. However, many metaphors you need, it's not that it's all gas, no breaks. We're not we're not stopping. So I have two more I have two more little points, and I know we're somewhat out of time, but you guys are stuck because I did reading for this, so you're all gonna get it. Okay. One of the objections was that women shouldn't sing, and Keach's response is so funny. He says this. So uh object, you say women ought not to sing in the church because uh not suffered to speak in this church, and also because singing is teaching. His response By the way, then it appears the bare melody in the heart where you say is the offense in singing, that is not singing by your own assertion or own assertion. Thus you destroy what you would build. Then he says, But if women may not speak nor teach in no sense in the church, they must not be admitted to give an account of their con conversion in the church, or how God was pleased to work upon their souls, for that practice is full of teaching and instruction, and has been blessed to the conversion of some other persons that have been by. I just think that's so funny to be like, oh, so women women aren't supposed to sing? Well, how are they supposed to even tell you they're a Christian?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:45

Man, that that also just exposes a reality that there were very many churches where women were not allowed to sing at all. Or I mean, uh talking is is already that that's already problematic enough. But to literally say, All right, ladies, quiet down while the men sing a little tune.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:05

Yeah. That's that's tough. That's that's hard to think of. But I just think it's so fun. Like Benjamin, Keach is probably not the first person to like counter with this argument, but it's just so funny for him to basically say, Okay, well then how do you even know that they're Christian? Okay. And then the last one, um, this is also really funny. Objection. But you add words to your hymns that are not in the text you refer to. Answer. So we do in preaching. But if those words agree with the text, 'tis still the same word and may be open thereby, the better to the understandings of the people. I mean, he's making a darn good point. Yeah. That's just those are like the that was like the little funnies I had.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:56

So there you have it. Benjamin Keach would die in 1703 as a hero, I think, of the Baptists. His none of these guys were rich. None of these guys, you know, went on to, you know, a lot of their children didn't grow up and be presidents or emperors or whatever, but they were uh very influential in our tradition to this day. So whether you go to a non-denom church, or I would even say if you go to a charismatic church, you don't have Wesley, which is where charismatics kind of stem from, right? You don't have Wesley writing a full hymn book without guys like Benjamin Keach fighting the battle uh a couple generations before him.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:43

Yeah, that's fascinating. It it almost feels like I think, yeah, because I mean we talk about this all the time. Like the the Protestant Reformation was kind of this signal that the Western world was moving into a more uh kind of individual focused corporate worship worship setting. And I think I think this was a tidal wave that was coming regardless. I mean, I think what Keach did was he framed it very well, he argued it very well, and he gave good biblical kind of arguments for it. But I think like this idea that people wanted to start um singing, that they wanted to feel more expressive in worship, and that they wanted to bring their own writings and their own offerings outside of just the Psalms. I think that was that was inevitable. Um but yes, it's you you're you're kind.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:37

kind of opening up a massive can of worms so we we can't get into the whole thing. But but the idea is a lot of these people that we celebrate happen to be the first to articulate something. Sure. Absolutely and that's super important. It is super important. It is super important. But yes, you're correct. It's not like the Reformation was coming. Yeah. Martin Luther Martin Luther was the one that lit the match. Exactly. Exactly. But it was it could have been anybody else. And if you want to get biblical with it, what does God tell Moses? Let my people know that's fairly well God tells Moses like I'm going to free him anyway. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:22

So like when God is starting a movement, he of course uses figureheads, but it's not like that one person is the No, and they he was he's going to do it anyway without the figurehead. So exactly exactly and that and that's not at all to to be any shade against Mr Keach. I just think it's interesting that like more and more the church is kind of moving in this uniform direction. And I think it's only going to get accelerated by the Protestants getting established in America and finally having that distance from the the institution and having room to really spread their Protestant wings.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:01

That's where the American Protestant tradition was like a powder keg of change. It's it's not even it's it's a nuclear bomb but the thing is is it just in America it's just so normal. Like we actually just get used to and now it's like the dust is settled and every single church believes something slightly differently.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:24

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:25

And we're just all cool with it.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:26

Yeah for us it's supernatural. I mean if I if I met someone like uh I mean I don't know it's like when you meet someone from Mexico who like only knows Catholicism like it's it's just this one monolith thing. Like I I I couldn't understand that.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:43

For me I think of the church in a billion different formats and right and you're like not offended if you're at a coffee shop and someone's like oh yeah I'm a Christian and then you're you're talking to them and it's like yeah my wife does the head covering thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:56

Right. Right. And you're like Yeah or if they're like you know yeah I go to the church around the corner my Pastor Sally is really great and I'm like Pastor Sally okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:05

But you know that's right. That's okay. Well God bless you brother. You know anyway anyway uh I hope you guys enjoyed that we will most likely have random little figures from the time period we just talked about pop up. We'll get there eventually I don't know how long it's going to be but uh it's a very fascinating time in Baptist and I would say church history. Absolutely thanks man that was a good that's a good episode.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:30

Yeah what are you what are you doing one on next week. Yeah I'm gonna say I'm gonna I'm gonna say this out loud because I know that if I don't say it that I'm not gonna hold myself accountable to doing it because it's gonna take more research than I won. But I really want to do especially in light of us being in the Crusades for the past eight months I want to do an episode about the early church and their posture towards uh the military about warfare about shedding blood in the name of the of the state uh I just really want to get into that I think it's interesting it's not a uniform opinion different church historians definitely have different perceptions about how the church evolved out of that mindset but I think it's worth exploring because there's some really cool things there.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:19

You're gonna have fun digging through the Gregories again.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:23

Yeah the Gregories and Tertullian and Origin and yeah it'll be a good time but yeah so join us next week for that one thanks for being here this week for this one we love you guys join our Discord uh rate us on Spotify find us on YouTube uh go get a go get a tasty coffee today tell your wife she looks beautiful for me dog for Taylor twice for John and um we'll see you guys next time bye bye