148. What Did the Early Church Believe about the Military?

Was the early church truly pacifist?

Oof, that's a tough question to answer.

And to be honest, we're not quite sure there is a neat and simple answer for that question. 

But if you want to hear enough church father quotes to make your head spin, then THIS is the episode for you. 

And remember, you don't have to be a pacifist so make sure you SMASH that Follow button! Or Subscribe button! Ha ha ha, was that good? 

Haha. 

We have fun. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Hey everybody. Welcome to Church History for Chumps. My name is John Simon and I am here with my good friend Taylor Treadway. Hello.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

John Simon definitely needed to record the introduction twice.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Want to tell him why? Well, I did this thing where like our our software has like a five-second countdown, and I was doing like some shadow boxing, like I was, like I was Rocky or Creed. I guess I'd kind of both. And uh and I winted myself. So when I started, I was already out of breath.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

It's very humbling.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

Very humbling.

SPEAKER_01 1:25

I love it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

Well, how are you doing, big dog? Chilling, man. Uh, yesterday was a big week for me and the wife. We had uh two birthdays, four days apart. So it was like a week of birthday stuff. It was beautiful. We got to see lots of friends and family and uh ate way too much good food. So now we're definitely slowing down. We're getting back on the you know, high protein, low carb uh kind of life. Excellent. Dude, we're enjoying it though. We're enjoying it.

SPEAKER_01 1:57

Annie turned 21 and you turn 44. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:03

Yeah, yeah. No, no. It was good, it's been really good, man. Um, I I kind of love it because, and the joke I always tell is like my birthday is on the 12th, and it's like we celebrate it for like a half a second, and then boom, it's like, all right, let's celebrate the week of Annie. I just get immediately overshadowed, which feels very appropriate for for a husband and wife, you know. Yeah. I don't deserve the spotlight. It's on her.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

Dudes that make a big deal out of their birthdays are That's weird. It is weird. It's weird. We try to be pretty understanding of things on this show. You know, of course. Oh, hey, I do it this way. Oh, okay, let's talk about it. That one though.

SPEAKER_00 2:45

I think I would be more understanding of a oneness Pentecostal than I would of a guy who's like, it's my birthday week.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

It's my birthday month.

unknown 2:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

Yeah. I'm like, like, I get rejecting the Trinity. It's wrong, but there's a long historical lineage for it. But Right. You and we can have a conversation. That's right. We can at least talk to each other. You know, the guy named Jeff who's celebrating his birthday month, like, brother.

SPEAKER_01 3:13

Brandy, Brandy was a special needs teacher for a long time. And one of the one of the things that the special needs kids would do if they were if they were capable of knowing kind of m months and timelines. Not all of them were. Some of them were just day-to-day, living moment by moment, you know. That's right. But uh other ones would be like, Hey, guess what's six months from now? And you'd be like, Is it your birthday, Tim? And be like, Yep, and my birthday. And then like two months there, hey, guess what's two months, two months later, hey, guess what's four months from now?

SPEAKER_00 3:49

Dude, I don't know what it is, but like so my sister, my my my older sister is also special needs. She has an intellectual disability, and she remembers birthdays like it's nobody's business. Like she'll be like, John, do you know what yesterday was? And I'll be like, what, Jen? And she'll be like, it was uh, it was it was like my great aunt's like two generations above us. She's like, Oh, it was great aunt Myrtle's birthday. I was like, Jenna, how did you know that? Like, did you call her? I was like, No, I haven't called her in ten years. Like, I called her. I wish her a happy birthday.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

You're a bad person, John. One of Brandy's old little buddies uh messages her on Facebook every time there's a holiday. And I mean every time. Happy St. Patrick's Day, Brandy.

SPEAKER_00 4:36

That's so funny.

SPEAKER_01 4:37

Happy Veterans Day, Brandy.

SPEAKER_00 4:39

You know what it is? It's because there's something about our our special needs population. That whimsy is just programmed into their DNA. You're right. They have the whimsy, dude. It's never-ending whimsy. Yeah, they love birthdays and cake and you know, playing sports with their pals. Like they're there's something good about that.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

It's like the old Shane Gillis joke when, you know, I think he has a cousin that has Down syndrome and he used to be like, yeah, his uncle, yeah. When he when he's used to people getting weird about it, if he brings it up and he's like, they're like, oh, how's he doing? And he's like better than literally everyone I've ever met.

SPEAKER_00 5:15

Dude, I love I love because I, you know, growing up with my sister, obviously my whole life, the the trend of how comedians would treat special needs people was not always flattering. So I'll admit when Shane Gillis started talking about like his doubt. You were like embracing myself. Yeah, because I'm like, oh dude, I'm so sick of like, you know, that kind of that kind of stigma. But he's able to poke fun at it but also having like total respect. And he's yeah, I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 5:47

I don't know, man.

SPEAKER_00 5:47

They're happy little guys. They're happy little guys. Yeah, they're have you ever seen the movie Peanut Butter Falcon? Yeah, I love that movie. I was gonna say, I was like, dude, if you haven't, that's the tailorist movie I know. Like, I'm I love that.

SPEAKER_01 5:58

Yeah, because Shia LaBeouf's character is me.

SPEAKER_00 6:03

But it's just it's just so wholesome, dude. It's a Down syndrome kid who runs away from his group home because he wants to be a professional wrestler. And like Shia LaBeouf and Dakota Johnson's in it, and I didn't even know she was around back then.

SPEAKER_01 6:15

This must have been an early role for her, but I love when she uh when when she says something to him and she starts talking down to the kid with with Down syndrome and Shia LaBeouf, they're on that raft, and Shia LaBeouf tells him, Hey, I think there's some fish in the water. Put your head down there and try to find the fish. And then he cusses her out. Yeah, he cusses her out. Why are you treating him like that? Yeah, I love it. He comes back up gasping for air. It's like there's no fish down here, and he gets killed chicken again.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

Dude, that movie's so good. Gosh, it's just it's one of those movies. I admit that that's in my it's in my Blu-ray collection. I'm trying to. There's a little like thrift shop in town, you know, Bookman's, where like I just try to be on the lookout for Blu-rays for movies I need in my collection. I'm tired of paying Papa Bezos whenever I want to watch a good movie. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 7:04

I dude, do you guys remember back in the day when Netflix had everything? Yes. Before anything else existed. You could just have Netflix and be like, oh, that movie's on it. Cool.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

Yeah. Dude, could you imagine if there was like a competitor to Spotify that like like you could listen to the Beatles on Spotify, but you couldn't find like the Beach Boys, you'd have to go to Apple Music for it. Like that's what this is.

SPEAKER_01 7:28

Don't give them any ideas.

SPEAKER_00 7:30

They've already thought of the ideas, man. They have literally, they pay people to figure out how they can make as much money at our expense.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

I know.

SPEAKER_00 7:38

That's what we're talking about today.

SPEAKER_01 7:40

That's what we're we're all gonna be Marxists. We're gonna be Marxists today.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

But I I will say today's topic had me thinking. Had me had me scratching my head a little bit. About Marxism? Not Marxism, no. But about something that actually, what do Marxists think about war? Because they usually it usually requires violence to establish communism. Oh, that's right. They they just want to empower like the the lay people to overthrow the the the rich and famous.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

You empower the proletariat.

SPEAKER_00 8:14

Yeah, yeah. So that feels good. Because usually whenever I have an interesting opinion, people call me Marxist for it. So I'm at least glad that if I have one today, it won't be a Marxist opinion. It might be a uh a lefty opinion or a soy boy opinion, but I'll take what I can get. Oh no, I we'll we'll see. Yeah, we'll see where you land. Yeah, I am I am very excited. I've been working on this episode for a while. I've done a lot of research. Um geez Louise, yeah, I've just got a lot. And I'm I yeah, and you know what? I'm gonna say this on the front end. I think this is the uh the kind of episode that's gonna spawn some really good conversations. And if you're like, but John, I'm listening to podcasts. How do I conversation? Answer is simple. Discord. Discord.gg slash actually the the link. I was like, why would you 73Q42 he's got it locked down? No, I'm not sure. Or just check the link in our in our show notes because I'm sure there will be some good conversation about this topic. And uh yeah, and I also I've been telling myself, as a hist like historians shouldn't have historians can have opinions, but they shouldn't lead with opinions, right? Like we can't put the cart before the horse. And I was really trying to make sure I I stayed very balanced, very even field.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

You had a good research question, which is what good historians will always start with. What's what's your research question? And yours was what did the early church pre-Constantine think about military service? That's right. That's right. I think that's a great that's a great question. That's like do you could do a dissertation on that.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

Oh yeah, oh yeah. And and the interesting thing is the more I dug, the more I found that not only have a number of reputed historians asked this question, but a lot of them have come to very different conclusions about it, which is fascinating to me.

SPEAKER_01 10:06

So well, the fan of the world of the academy wants to John. You should just consider come come to Gateway, being an academic, finish a few more classes, and then you can go in the PhD program. Nah, I'm good, Doug.

SPEAKER_00 10:23

Just master's degree keeping me nice and warm at night when I hold it over a flashlight in my living room. Is that what you do? You stare at it every night. That's right, yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. So here, we'll we'll kind of preface this a little bit. Uh join our Discord. Uh, give us a review on Spotify. Really, five stars only. If you're thinking four stars or less, don't even bother. Just share it with a friend and move on.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

Because he'll stare at the ceiling to never fall asleep. That's don't do that.

SPEAKER_00 10:54

Stressing us out. Yeah, guys, we if we can't get Christianity today in the next six months, I'm calling it quits. I'm just saying. Um, that's not true. I'm gonna keep going until the wheels fall off. Don't worry about it.

SPEAKER_01 11:03

Yeah, and Christianity today would try to buy us.

SPEAKER_00 11:06

That's what that would be. Like they would but they would but they would like pay us to keep going under their brand, right?

SPEAKER_01 11:12

Yeah, but then they would try to tell us what to do. We're not sellouts. Hmm. Well, I don't know. I'm talking.

SPEAKER_00 11:22

Let's see how many zeros we got here. Because currently we're working for very few zeros. Also, if you want to fund us, yeah. You can executive produce an episode, you can buy an episode of Chump Talk at the end of the month. Uh yeah, lots of options for you guys. So there we go. All right, let's get into our episode. Uh on the front end, I'm just gonna share real quick. Most of my research from this came from the book Caesar and the Lamb by George Calancis. He's a church history professor and scholar out of, I believe, Wheaton seminary. Um, but there's lots of good dudes to read about this. If you want to look for like more theological stuff, you can read John Howard Yoder, Peter Lightheart. If you want to look more historical, there's Lewis J. Swift, John Allen Helgeland, and uh Gavin Ortland has a great ep uh video on this on this topic as well. Even though at times me and Gavin come to different conclusions. So let's begin. The hour was late. Not that music, Taylor. The jazzy, jazzy scat music. The hour was late. Although the sun had long since set, there was a harsh warmth that lingered in the North African air. Maximilian couldn't sleep. He could hear his father tossing and turning in the other room. Eventually he heard his footsteps as he slowly moved from the bed toward the candlelight that glowed in the living area of his home. His father's shadow was colossal, an accurate portrayal of the man it represented. He had been hardened by many years of military service, and while he was long since retired, his hands bore the calluses and his back bore the aches of a man familiar with hard, serious labor. Maximilian did not raise his eyes to meet his father's gaze. I don't want to talk about it, the young man said with a hushed tone. You're only 21, my son. You don't know what you want. You don't know who you are. Why would you make such a decision when you've experienced so little of this world? Because I know what they would want me to do. You don't know anything. You're the son of a noble. Being promoted to centurion is not out of the question. If it's bloodshed you're afraid of, you may never have to touch a sword for your entire career. You may even walk in my footsteps and enjoy a meaningful career. That's not enough. If I enlisted, I would be giving my life to Caesar. The very Caesar that's ordered the flogging of our priests in the past, the burning of our scriptures. There's nothing meaningful about saluting my allegiance to evil men while I endorse the blood sacrifice of the state. The Father's voice, raspy and weathered, bowed down to hardly a whisper. You know what will happen if you refuse. You know. I do, Maximilian said. Come what may. Christ will guide my path. The two men sat there for a while, a long while, perfectly silent. Soon the house was filled with a chorus of weeping as the two men embraced each other, father and son, for one final time. Yeah. So uh that's a story, one of many stories that we will tell. We have a lot to traverse today, let me just say. And also, I realized this episode is kind of like the infinity war of a billion early church episodes. We did like we're gonna mention so many uh events and eras and figures from the early church that literally every time I say a name, I want you to look back into our catalog because you will find episodes for so much of this stuff. So this really is gonna be very referential. But this alone, this was the story of Saint Maximilian of Tibesa. Uh he was a 21-year-old, very, very young. Uh he was living in a uh in in Tibesa, of course, in North Africa, which was part of Rome at the time. This was, I want to say 295 or 285, one of the two. Uh so late third century, a few decades before Constantine has his big conversion, which is going to change things. And uh in this particular region, if you were the son of a military veteran, you were compelled to join military service. And if you essentially refused it, it was seen as an act of treason against the empire. And Maximilian, there's this beautiful story. There's actually this really cool, well-documented dialogue between him and the Roman proconsul, who's basically like, Why don't you do this? Like, there are already Christians who are serving in the army, and Maximilian's like, I just can't do it. Like, my only Lord is Jesus, and I can't be, I cannot serve, I cannot serve this nation. My only nation is the kingdom of God. And uh, and he's beheaded for it, and he is uh and he is killed and and venerated as a martyr. So we've got a lot of time to get here uh at this point. So we're gonna try to start our best to uh to get all the way back to the very beginning of uh of where the church is at. And as Taylor said, we are gonna try to answer the question of what does the early church what is their perspective about joining the military? Also, with we're gonna touch on topics of uh just nonviolence slash pacifism in general. We're going to talk about uh the significance of martyrdom. So there's gonna be a lot. I've got a lot of talking to do. So, Taylor, you just put on your interrupting hat, brother, because I want you to jump in whenever you need to.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

I I I'll try to keep it on topic instead of uh I wouldn't worry about it, man.

SPEAKER_00 17:23

I I trust I trust your interrupting skills. All right, so we'll start in the beginning. So this is kind of the first trajectory of things. So uh essentially, when you look at the New Testament, and we're gonna approach this not as Marcionites here, uh, we're not rejecting the Old Testament in any way, but when you look at the New Testament, a lot of the references made to battle, specifically in the epistles, are going to be kind of these figurative language. Like, you know, Ephesians 6 is probably the most famous where it's like, therefore put on the full armor of God so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground. You know, it's uh putting on the breastplate of righteousness and feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. So they're using warfare language, but it's really meant to represent these spiritual truths. And uh Peter Calansis, who, like I said, was was my main kind of source for this, even though of course I explored outside of it, he's gonna say that a lot of the early documents that we see, whether it's the Didiche, whether it's uh Pliny's letter to the Emperor Trajan, where he's speaking about the practices of Christians, um a lot of it is going to reinforce this emphasis that, like, one Christians are aliens who really do not belong to a single nation, and that uh when this language of warfare is used, it's always in the spiritual sense. Uh, I have a quote from Irenaeus, which is when he was writing to Polycarp. As we know, we did an episode on Irenaeus. He wrote, I think, like seven letters as he was traveling. And we did an episode on Polycarp. Yeah, we did. That's right. Um, and we did more on the Didicay. So literally, this could fill your backlog for for days, guys. Go ahead. Um, and Irenaeus, yeah, he wrote a uh a letter to Polycarp as he was on his way to be martyred, where he says, uh, be pleasing to the one in whose army all of you serve, from whom also you receive your wages. Let none of you be found a deserter, let your baptism remain as your weaponry, your faith as a helmet, your love as a spear, your endurance as your armor, let your works be your deposits, that you may receive the back pay you deserve. So it's very like lots of military language, but very much in the Ephesians six, Second Timothy kind of language of like, you know, even that, your love as a spear. It's a very beautiful language.

SPEAKER_01 19:59

Well, what do you do though with Jesus never condemning or any of the New Testament writers never condemning military service? Brother, we're gonna get there. We got plenty of things to talk about. Well, I didn't I didn't know if we were moving uh chronologically. Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 20:18

Because I I don't want to get because everything that happens New Testament is in in terms of history, it's it's based on interpretation. So we're gonna go into like how how these figures are interpreting these things.

SPEAKER_01 20:31

Well, and I think it's also worth mentioning you said something about we're not uh Marcians, so we're okay we're okay with the Old Testament. Gotta remember the Old Testament, the military was used specifically by God for divine judgment. Correct, yes, which is as far as I'm aware, prophets are not speaking today to military generals and telling them where to bomb.

SPEAKER_00 20:59

Cor correct, yes. I think the willingness to serve uh literally in the Lord's military under in in Israel uh is pretty different from really serving in in any other country. Because then the question would be, well, which of the nations that are around today are the proper replacement for what Israel was in the Old Testament? I think the only orthodox answer is none of them. Otherwise you end up saying, Oh, well, it's Israel, or oh, it's America, or oh, it's Argentina or something. I don't know, it gets gets really, really screwy really fast.

SPEAKER_01 21:35

Well, it's definitely not Argentina. I mean they're on the World Cup, you know. I could see it being an argument for America, you know. Argentina's out, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 21:48

Argentina's out, baby. Yeah, so um so when we get into the early parts of the church uh or of church history, you have early apologists and theologians who talk pretty extensively about Christ's commitment to nonviolence, um, reinforcing Jesus' call to love our enemies, um and the call to put the sword away. That's something we're gonna see a lot. Uh what I thought was really interesting was Christians are not called, especially when you look at a lot of these authors, Origin is one that we'll use as an example. They're not suggesting that we should be antagonistic towards Rome. But they're essentially saying we shouldn't fight for them by shedding blood, but we should fight for them through our prayers. Like we should pray for the well being of our empire. I think Origen even said, like, it's not wrong to even pray that our armies would succeed against the armies of our enemies. But to partake in that because of the idolatry built into the Roman military and in the act of bloodshed, those things are not things that Christians should touch, essentially. So again, there's a lot, there's a lot to kind of explore. Um, but really what you see consistently in kind of the early centuries are like there's two things that the Christ that a lot of Christians are kind of harping on. One is that how can you love your enemy if you're murder if you're killing them, basically? And the second is just the acknowledgement that the Roman military was like drenched in religious paganism. Like when you joined the military, there's like a ceremony where you're basically pledging your allegiance to the Caesar, you're like wearing this like you know, like rod kind of in a band over your shoulders. Um before you go into war, they like would perform s animal sacrifices. When you'd return from war, they'd re they'd commit animal sacrifices. Like it was very religious. Everything in society was very religious. The idea was to be in the military was to basically part participate in Roman religious practices, which is not savory, you could argue. Right.

SPEAKER_01 24:04

Pacifism aside, uh whether you're a pacifist or not, it it you were participating in outright paganism. Exactly. So that makes that one is pretty easy to track with, I think.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

Yeah, yeah. Um one thing that I really loved about uh about Calansis' book is that he emphasizes that uh something that we identify with the church in this early church time period is just the prevalence of martyrdom. And so, you know, when we think about you know, Irenaeus, he himself was martyred, uh Justin Martyr, of course, his namesake was martyred. Uh Origin's father was martyred, which was a big part of his kind of origin story. Ha, origin story. Uh but we also have an episode on Origin. We do, yes, we do. We have two actually, because one we argue about whether we should like him or not. That was a fun one. Oh, yeah, that's right. Yeah. And so the the question kind of the the you martyrdom is kind of seen as this like very high honor. It's seen almost in like a sacramental light that like to be someone who is called into martyrdom is like this amazing blessing. Like uh it's not that martyrdom is something to be sought out, uh, nor is it something to be resisted once you find yourself in that position. Because again, of course, we the New Testament gives us Jesus, who uh in many ways can be seen kind of as a martyr, even though I would differentiate him from non-divine ones. Yeah. But then you've got like Saint Stephen, who is martyred in the book of Acts, you've got James, who's also martyred in the book of Acts, you have you know the stories of the apostles, many of whom were martyred, also a bunch of episodes we have on the past. That's right. Um and so when you look at the posture that the church has towards martyrdom, it's clear that the Rome is kind of seen as this figure that expresses violence as opposition and as like uh kind of they're expressing violence in a way that's very oppositional to God and his people. So the idea that Christians would join a violent system and participate in violence, even if it wasn't targeting Christians, but if it was still operating out of this violent organism, it was just like there's no way we can do this. Like the same swords that are cutting the throats of Christians are also being used to cut down quote unquote barbarians. Like that's just that's that's not acceptable for us. And so martyrdom was uh kind of casts a very unique light. One text I want to read, this is from the martyrdom of Polycarp, uh, which I think just does a good job of expressing the posture the church had, et cetera. He was not merely an illustrious teacher, but also a preeminent martyr whose martyrdom all desired to imitate, as having been altogether consistent with the gospel of Christ, for having through patience overcome the unjust governor and thus acquired the crown of immortality, he now, with the apostles and all the righteous in heaven, rejoicingly glorifies God. So you can definitely see kind of the sacramental language of like you're walking in the footsteps of Jesus, you're overcoming the unjust, you're acquiring the crown. Like it's a very dignified thing to do.

SPEAKER_01 27:37

You know who I think really experienced this in more recent times. What's that? Is the the Anabaptists. Always comes back to the Anabaptists. It always comes back to the Anabaptists. But like if you think about it, I mean, they they were fighting the powers that be and not but they weren't. Like that's the thing. The powers that be were actually fighting them. They were just they were just standing out. They were sta yes, and uh they didn't want to participate by their own convictions and they they were killed for it. And uh I don't know. I I I I'm just thinking the the only reason I bring up the Anabaptists and any other more modern movement that's experienced it is I think maybe there's something baked into Christianity when with martyrdom is a it's like part of the ingredients, right? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 28:37

Yeah, you can't you can't have like modern day Christians, I would say of every tradition is always gonna have their martyrs that they revere because Christianity is a religion of the dying, the weak and dying becoming victorious. So you could totally see another religion being like, oh, those guys, you know, were lousy because they tried something and they failed and the state killed them. But for us, it's like no, they they did exactly what Jesus would do. They are they are victors, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

Right. Or uh you think about like how the Mormons were mistreated, and you're kind of like, well Yeah, yeah, but that's the thing.

SPEAKER_00 29:18

Like, and martyrs, martyrs always bolster a cause, you know, martyrs always make a cause look stronger because now you can feel sympathetic, but also it's like, wow, this guy believed this thing so much that he would allow himself to be torn apart for it. Right.

SPEAKER_01 29:34

Except the Mormons, though, were being mistreated for you know doing weird doing weird stuff.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. And no, don't, yeah, not all martyrs are created equal.

SPEAKER_01 29:46

I mean, that's what I was saying, is there's something heroic about the Christian martyr that it's like, man, you really just could have saved your life if you just, you know, said hail Caesar and did the incense burning, but you didn't. For the Mormons, it was like you could have saved your life by not being incredibly problematic across multiple ways.

SPEAKER_00 30:06

That's fair. Yeah. But you know, it's interesting you brought up the Anabaptists because the big difference there is that it was Christians doing the persecuting. And I think one of the big shifts that happens when the the when Constantine kind of causes that paradigm shift in the empire is that like obviously lots of good things happen, and we've talked about Constantine on this show before, also. Um, you know, uh the Colosseum and all of the gladiator games get abolished. Like lots of good things happen when Constantine legalizes Christianity, but you also now see for the first time Christians are the one holding the gun, and they don't quite know how to fire it yet.

SPEAKER_01 30:49

Well, and but that's the immediate switch. That's when Augustine, obviously, Augustine was a little bit after Constantine, but he comes along and proposes just war theory, which we also have an episode on. Um why don't you just go ahead and assume that we have an episode on whatever we're everything we mentioned, basically. Yeah, that's right. We don't have one on the Anabaptist yet, but uh yeah, yeah, TBD. We'll get there. Uh Augustine comes along and then kind of puts words to what's already in the cultural zeitgeist, which is oh, well, I guess Christians can serve in the military now because it's not a pagan cult. And so he kind of he kind of comes along and figures out how to do it, but you're right, yeah, good things happen, but now Christians are the ones holding the gun now, which is brings another set of problems.

SPEAKER_00 31:40

It is, yes. And so I think I think even before we form opinions, I think it's just interesting to kind of trace trace the the trajectory of how things went from like clearly the most outspoken apologists and theologians were opposed to it, to now now we have just war theory. Now we have the most important theologian in the West who's basically saying um Christians can lawfully wage war and it be a good thing. So again, let's just do the history, then we'll talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 32:10

Did did you find any? I would imagine there were not not everybody in that golden age of the patristic era was pro-military service.

SPEAKER_00 32:23

Yeah, so according to Calancis, who accor I I think the closest that I found in like the first few centuries is people who said it is possible, or they they would make like kind of vague passing statements of like, oh, it's a good thing when a good army kills bad people. Like, but they're like, I didn't see anything that would say that where it explicitly states that um it's a good and lawful thing for a Christian to serve. That's not gonna come until later. From what I've found. If you guys if you know something different in the comments, let me know. I'm gonna read a text that I think is very important, and then I'm gonna read uh a litany of quotes from some of our uh these figures that I've been so vaguely mentioning. Uh, this is from a document called the Apostolic Tradition. Um, it is likely dated back to the second or third um century. It does have some historical controversy, but scholars seem to be mixed on it. Because I think the biggest thing is that because it was discovered so late, people think it was maybe like a number of documents kind of stitched together over time, but there's still plenty of scholars that find this perfectly valid. But this is from the apostolic tradition. Canon 16, 8 through 9, says a soldier in command must be told not to kill people. This is this is uh this is written for catechumens, like people about to join the Christian church. It says, A soldier in command must be told not to kill people, if he is ordered to do so, he shall not carry it out, nor should he take the oath. If he will not agree to this, he should be rejected from the church, essentially. Anyone who has the power of the sword, or who is a civil magistrate wearing the purple with a sign of Rome, should desist or be rejected. And then it goes on to say if a catechumen, so someone who's just considering the faith, or a believer wishes to become a soldier, they should be rejected, for they have despised God.

SPEAKER_01 34:32

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 34:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:34

So I know do you are you gonna read doesn't Nicaea have something about military service too? I think it does.

SPEAKER_00 34:43

I don't have anything on Nicaea, but I do have something from a very interesting little council that took place like ten years before. But Nicaea's kind of the kicking off point. That is that's where things get interesting. Um, so yeah, I don't think we have any reason to believe that this was being unanimously taught throughout the church, but there were at least well documented, and some are attributing this text back to Hippolytus, who would have been a bishop of Rome in the second second or third century. Um, that's explicitly stating that Christians, if they if they are soldiers, should not kill, and if they're interested in the faith and are also interested in being a soldier, they should be rejected flat out. So there's a clear line there. Um I'm gonna read some quotes. These are from a number of dudes. I'll kind of read off their names and then their their time periods too. Justin Martyrs are first, he's from the early second century. He says, and I quote, We who form we who formerly killed one another and not only refused, sorry, we who formerly killed one another, not only refused to make war on our enemies, but in order to avoid lying to our interrogators or deceiving them, we freely go to our deaths, confessing Christ. So again, it's that like martyrdom is the virtue, shedding blood is the is the bottom. Um he also says, uh when the spirit of he's he's quoting, he says, when the spirit of prophecy speaks of things to come, he says, For the law will go forth from Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem, and he shall judge between the nations and arbitrate among many peoples, and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, of course from Isaiah, and their spears into pruning hooks, and nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn to war anymore. So the passages that we have in the prophets, I think specifically from Isaiah and Micah, that basically say nations shouldn't be in war anymore. A lot of the early Christians are taking to be literal, meaning like a Christian should not be fighting in war because those times have passed because of what Jesus has done. Um again, I don't think everyone's gonna hold that view. This is from Cyprian, he's an early third century guy. Uh he says, When individuals slay a man, it is a crime, but when killing takes place on behalf of the state, it is called virtue. And then he says, After the reception of the Eucharist, the hand shall not be stained with the sword and bloodshed. So clearly, like taking the Eucharist, which is literally a gift of a gift of the violence done to Christ, and then killing someone else, is kind of mismatched.

SPEAKER_01 37:28

But he acknowledges that the state has the power to judge and that's virtuous.

SPEAKER_00 37:34

I think he's being sarcastic. I think I think he was calling it a uh I don't think he was saying that.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

Like I think he was saying, Oh, he was saying like, oh, it's fine when we when we do it to one another, but it's virtuous when they do it too. Right. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:48

I do not think he was like, oh, it's a virtue. I think he was like, Oh, yeah, that's how you know the state is bogus. Because they're calling something virtuous that under any other circumstance would be considered evil. Uh Tertullian, who was and we we've talked about Tertullian. He's a very love-hate figure. He's like the legal eagle of the early church. He's like the classic Latin, um, kind of has that lawyer background. He's very argumentative, he's very polemical.

SPEAKER_01 38:17

And he's he's one of the first guys that really pushes back against Christians in culture. Yes, yes. I mean, and Tertullian was not, he did not make friends easily.

SPEAKER_00 38:31

And this dude was like writing letters to emperors, being like, Hey, you big dummies, you're killing Christians, but if you knew anything, you'd realize how stupid that was. Like, yeah. I think Tertullian was the one who famously said, uh, the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church. So he's he's he wrote that to an emperor, basically being like, the more you kill us, the stronger we're gonna get. So keep keep going. Um so he says, uh, there can be no compatibility between the divine and the human sacrament, the standard of Christ and the standard of the devil, the camp of light and the camp of darkness. One soul cannot serve two masters, God and Caesar. But how will a Christian go to war? Indeed, how will he serve even in peacetime without a sword which the Lord has taken away? For even if soldiers came to John and received advice on how to act, and even if a centurion became a believer, and this is his famous line right here, the Lord, by taking away Peter's sword, disarmed every soldier thereafter. And then he says, We are not allowed to wear any uniform that symbolizes a sinful act.

SPEAKER_01 39:38

That's a strong reading of that text.

SPEAKER_00 39:44

Ah, he's he's punchy, man, but I'll but I know you're not the messenger. I'm just the messenger.

SPEAKER_01 39:52

I'm just delivering what they said. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 39:54

I'm just delivering pizzas out here, big dog. Yeah. I got a couple more, got a couple more bys for you. Uh like Like Tantius, who was a theologian from I believe the early fourth century, said, A just man may not be a soldier, since justice itself is his form of service, nor may he put anyone on a capital charge. Whether you kill a man with a sword or a speech makes no difference, since killing itself is banned. And this commandment of God, no exception at all should be made. Killing a human being is always wrong, because it is God's will for man to be a sacred creature. Um and then we have origin, and origin is probably one of the most vocal if if Tertullian was the most vocal in the West in the early days, origin is the most vocal in the in the East. And he says, um, if Christians had started with a revolt, they would never have submitted to the kind of peaceful laws which permitted them to be slaughtered like sheep, and which made them always incapable of taking vengeance on their persecutors because they followed the law of gentleness and love. No longer do we take the sword against any nation, nor do we learn the art of war any more, since we have become sons of peace through Jesus, who is our author, instead of following the traditional customs by which we were strangers to the covenants. And so those are all my quotes. Trust me, there are a lot more, but I did not want this episode to be three hours long. But again, of quote reading. Yeah, yeah, of just quote reading, yeah. Um, but I I do think, and I I really genuinely listener, I don't think I'm being biased in saying that there is a strong, maybe not uh like ubiquity. I don't know if it's unanimous that every single one, but there were absolutely some very influential theologians and apologists in the early days that were very opposed to military service. Um doesn't mean it's not gonna get complicated, and this is where things do get complicated.

SPEAKER_01 41:58

Yeah, because it's not inconceivable to understand that eventually when the when the government is not pagan anymore, and you can like kind of make some picture of the government like kind of trying to do righteousness.

SPEAKER_00 42:18

Yeah, and and the context is gonna change. Like that's that's one of the biggest things, and I I do think that is that is a worthwhile conversation to have. So um here is where things are gonna get complicated. Because Christians are still fighting in the military in the second and third centuries. The general sense that we tend to get is that as Christians became a little bit more established, again, not big household names, but they're not the rotten post-Judaism cult that they're seen to be in the first century. They're a little bit more prevalent. Um the military is seen as like kind of a lucrative career, and you know, it's a good way to show your loyalty and maybe a good way to earn some respect from the higher-ups, and and the military becomes a viable career for a lot of Christians during this time. Now, what's interesting is this this kind of becomes a gotcha. So, what I'm gonna do right now is I'm gonna introduce a handful of gotchas that both pacifists and pro-military will use against each other, and then I'm gonna try to counter all of them just because Johnny Nuance over here picking no sides. Uh because people will say, like, oh, well, history says that Christians were fighting in the military. Doesn't that mean that it was probably fine? And I mean, that's kind of an awful argument. Because I mean, if a hundred years from now someone did a scan and said, Oh my gosh, 45% of Christian men in 2026 were watching pornography. Clearly, clearly the tumult were super, yeah. Oh my gosh, this must have been part of their sacrament. Who knows? And it's like, no, like Christians have historically done things they're not supposed to do.

SPEAKER_01 44:06

It's kind of like part of what we do.

SPEAKER_00 44:08

Yeah, it's exactly so. There are some people who are just like, well, maybe the theologians were like an outlier, but Calansis is gonna say over and over again, like, maybe Origin, Justin Martyr, uh, Tertullian were in the minority, but the simple fact is the majority wasn't speaking in favor of the military. So it's not like there were all these voices speaking in harsh opposition to them. Well, also there's just the What happens post Constantine? Brother, we're getting there. We're building. We're building. It's 44 minutes. I know. We got a little bit more building to do. We're gonna get there. We're gonna get there. I got like a page of notes. We're fine. All right. So yeah, why were Christians fighting in the military? Maybe the church was lax on discipline. Um, an author that I found said that uh there's actually very little scholarship, reliable scholarship of how the church practiced discipline in the second and third centuries. So we just don't know what relationship there was there.

SPEAKER_01 45:11

Also, there's the question always terrible at discipline.

SPEAKER_00 45:15

Yeah, they've never been good at it.

SPEAKER_01 45:17

They've never been good at it ever.

SPEAKER_00 45:19

Right. The Presbyterians have tried. Yeah, they're not good either. Come on, we're we're all bad at this stuff. Or also there's the possibility that since a lot of adults were getting converted to the faith, that these were people who were serving in the military at the time they became Christian, which would become a little bit more excusable. So um, but here's the other gotcha. Here's here's a gotcha from the other side. There is a statement called the Edict of Arles, which was in thir 314 AD, which says uh this was a very weird, strange kind of dark document. It comes out in 314, like I said, about 10 years before Nicaea, and it's called by Constantine, and one of the like kind of little bylaws mentioned is that Christians who abandon military service in peacetime should be disciplined. And so that brings up this massive question of like, well, what the heck? Like the church is speaking on and it's encouraging them to continue to serve in the military through peacetime. Um really the only counter to that is that it's yeah, of course, Constantine would sign off on that. Exact exact and and one of the and one of the I found this really great author who uh wrote this kind of like commentary exposition on this edict, and he says, honestly, the bishops could have ri the bishops likely could have passed that edict along because they were just trying to make nice with Constantine, and they were they were hoping to secure in a time of really bad persecution under Diocletian that they could just cozy up with an emperor who didn't actively hate them. So it was likely they were just like, actually, emperor, we're gonna make sure our people don't cause any trouble down here, you know. So again, we don't know for sure.

SPEAKER_01 47:11

Also, I mean, they would have been concerned with saying, okay, don't be an oath breaker, right? Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:17

I mean, because if Christians have been serving in the military for over a hundred years at this point, like maybe the posture was just like, yeah, we don't love it, and Tertullian wouldn't have liked it, but it just is what it is right now.

SPEAKER_01 47:28

It is what it is, and you know, especially if they're saying, well, if it's during peace time, they're not asking you to go kill some innocent lady, right? Right. Right, exactly. Exactly. You have no excuse. Right. Okay. I yeah, I'm I'm tracking with the Edict of Arlis. Yeah. Sound that sounds like something from an anime, by the way. It does. It does.

SPEAKER_00 47:51

That's some like full metal alchemist type thing. Yeah, definitely. All right. So now the moment that Taylor's been waiting for. The great change. We have theologians who seem to not like this, the moment. Uh we have Christians who seem to not really stand in the same regard of how to how to feel about it. What on earth, Taylor, do you think could have happened in the fourth century that threw such a wrench in this situation? The Christians became in charge. That's right. Because that one fateful day, uh Emperor at the Milvian Bridge, the Cairo in the sky. Yeah. And uh and the Emperor Constantine. Technically, Emperor, I guess what, Caesar Augustus of Western Rome at this time. Uh he converts to Christianity and he leads his people into victory under the sign of the of the Cairo, standing for the two first letters of of Christ in Greek. And uh the tetrarchy, right? What's that?

SPEAKER_01 49:01

He ends the tetrarchy, right? He does, that's right. And then and then then says across the entire dominated world, Christianity is now legal. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 49:11

Which is which, and I always like to reinforce this whenever we talk about Constantine's conversion. We, I think, in the modern age, carry that with a lot of baggage. One, because I think our history isn't always super sharp, and we carry some baggage we probably shouldn't. However, this was like this was an amazing day for like 99% of the church. The millennial kingdom started right then. This was a huge moment. Because you got to remember, like, Christians were being beaten up and executed. Like the Diocletian persecution under Diocletian was the worst persecution to happen in all of this overlap.

SPEAKER_01 49:52

Yeah, because your granddad was still walking around the farm missing an eye and like an arm that some Roman soldier cut off because he didn't want to give up the Bible. Exactly. And this was that was like how that was still that day.

SPEAKER_00 50:05

Yeah. Right. And this was this was empire-wide persecution. A lot of the persecutions that we look at, whether they're the Decian persecution or the or the or Nero's persecution, a lot of them were spotty. They were in different areas, they were city-based. Uh but Diocletian was like, get these freaking nerds out of here. And that was a huge deal. So Constantine converts to Christianity, as my very smart co-host said, he legalizes Christianity for the first time. Christianity had never been legal. This was not a time where religious tolerance was a value for anybody in the world. Um, and so now we have this gigantic boulder of a question, which is we used to kind of hate the military because these were the goobers that were killing our priests and burning our churches down. But now, and then again, in 381, Emperor Theodosius is going to take it a step further and make Christianity the official state religion of the Roman Empire. So now the question's like well, we're not in that same spot because we're not just protecting ourselves from Roman soldiers who want to kill us for being Christian. Now the enemy might be the pagans on the outside of our camps who want to attack Rome. Because if Rome is now integrated with the Christian church, then an attack on our empire is an attack on our on our religion and our and our religious community.

SPEAKER_01 51:37

Another way to look at it is less nationalistic, but you could also just think of it as well, the military is what's protecting our right to be Christians.

SPEAKER_00 51:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you think if if some, you know, I don't know, Attila the Hun type tyrant comes over and chain and flips the script, all of a sudden it's not legal to be Christian anymore. Now we're now we're a minority again. Right.

SPEAKER_01 52:05

So the the military is defending that.

SPEAKER_00 52:08

Correct, correct. And so now you have different views starting to come out. You have uh I've got a few more quotes from uh from the big A's of the uh of the fourth century. You've got Athanasius who says, It is not right to kill it in war, it is lawful and praiseworthy to destroy the enemy accordingly. Not only are they who have distinguished themselves in the field held worthy of great honor. Uh Ambrose is gonna say Athanasius said that. Yes, sir. What a script flip from Tertullian. And from Origen. Who was his who was his like great like religious grandfather being happy? Yeah. Uh Ambrose is gonna say, we shall find in other things that happen in life differences of a certain kind of existing. For instance, it is not lawful to kill, but to destroy opponents in war is lawful and worthy of praise. Um Augustine is not just going to have like one-off lines about the value of this, but he's, as we've talked about, going to develop the just war theory. He also kind of justifies he's gonna be like, hey, you know, the Old Testament has lots of military violence. That seems like it's okay. You know, uh in Luke 3, you have the soldiers who go to John the Baptist and they ask him how they should repent. And John the Baptist is like, oh, just don't use your power forcefully, but he doesn't tell them they can't be soldiers anymore. So now it's like even the way they're exegeting the religious scriptures about that engage with like the the centurions and the Roman soldiers, even that's kind of starting to morph a little bit. And then uh Augustine, of course, is going to create the just war theory, which is essentially laying out these curriculum for how to responsibly um conduct war. And uh a lot of it we look at and we think this isn't too bad, you know. It's uh things like it has to be just, uh, it has to have right intention, it must be a last resort after efforts of diplomacy, you know, you should discriminate between combatants and non-combatants, like things that we would identify with in a positive way.

SPEAKER_01 54:19

And and the the commanders are on the hook for the morality of it.

SPEAKER_00 54:23

Right, right, exactly. Yeah, it's spawning from the authority, exactly. Right. Um, I do think it's worth pointing out as we maybe not land the plane, but I'd love to pivot to uh maybe more pastoral conversation, Taylor. Is uh let's look at what was happening over in the East. I know we mentioned Athanasius, but uh um Basil I find really interesting in this because he's got a quote where he says, Homicide in war is not reckoned by our fathers as homicide. I presume from their wish to make concession to men be fighting on behalf of chastity and true religion. Perhaps, however, it is well to counsel that those whose hands are not clean only abstain from communion for three years. So he's saying like That's very Eastern. Yeah, it's like if you if you're fighting a just war, that's okay. But if you come back and you've shed blood, you should be in penance for three years and not take communion, which I think is a really good way of holding that balance of like can it be justified? Practically, yes. But it is it still defiling? Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Um and then I just want to read this great quote that I thought was phenomenal. This is the last quote I'll read, I promise, and I'm gonna give a good shout out to our buddy Jackson, who shared this with me on the Discord, because I just thought it was incredible, but I'll I'll read about the context of this quote after. And the blessed disciples, pricked with the goading of divine love, drew their swords to repel the attack, but Christ would not permit this to be done, but rebuked Peter, saying, Put your sword into its sheath, for all who take up the sword shall die by the sword. And Heron, and herein he has given us also a pattern of the manner in which we must hold fast by our love to him, and of the extent to which the burning zeal of our piety may proceed, for he would not have us use swords wherewith to resist our enemies, but rather employing love and prudence, we must mightily prevail over those who oppose us. For the war for truth's sake is spiritual, and the armor that becomes saints is intellectual and full of love to God. And so then the Saviour moderates the unmeasured zeal of the holy apostles, and by preventing the example of such an act, declares that those who are in the who are the chief in his religion have no need in any way whatsoever of swords. Which I love. I think that's a great quote. So the interesting context about Cyril's quote is that Cyril did not was not Bishop of Alexandria during a time of persecution. He was actually Bishop of Alexandria in a time when Christianity had become so big that there were actually violent riots that Christians were doing against other minority religions. So the interesting thing is that Cyril has a quote that could have easily fit with what Origen said, but Origen was saying, don't kill the people who are trying to kill you. You're the oppressed, don't be the oppressor. And Cyril's basically saying, look, we're the top dogs now. We're in charge.

SPEAKER_01 57:41

Yeah, don't adjust.

SPEAKER_00 57:42

Don't misuse that and bring violence to your enemies. That's not the way to do it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:48

So I I know, you know, we're running out of time. No, we're not.

SPEAKER_00 57:54

We're not plenty of time, bro. Come on.

SPEAKER_01 57:57

You you had said, like, at the end, let's have this question, right? Yes. Like, what do you say when a young man comes to you and says, Hey, I think I'm gonna join the military.

SPEAKER_00 58:07

Yeah. How do you disciple that guy? Assuming he's in your church and there's a relationship already established. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:13

I mean, I think I think it's good to catch him up on this entire historical context so he's aware. I think realistically he needs to be also very grateful that our military for the most part is happens to be fighting for the side of the righteous for the most part. Uh I think though you can very quickly one of the YouTube rabbit holes I go down is like CIA stories. And some of these paramilitary guys, dude, they they'll the CIA will be trying to recruit somebody to give them information and they'll be like, okay, but so and so's heroin farm over there, I don't like him. And they'll like the DEA used to do this, like have hit squads of paramilitary guys.

SPEAKER_00 59:12

And the good news is the CIA has never killed anyone good.

SPEAKER_01 59:17

Well, that's what I'm saying, though. It's like, look, man, if you're in the Air Force and General so-and-so says Trump said we need to like attack this ISIS base with drones, and the ISIS people are regularly going out and killing women and children. That's like, okay, well, yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_00 59:36

But Trump said like six months ago he was gonna wipe the face of Iran off the map.

SPEAKER_01 59:41

Like we're not we're not talking about Trump's insane tweets here. I'm just saying, I'm just saying like drones strike the ISIS men that are killing women and children in their free time. Like that one's if you're not a pure pacifist and you're willing to take life for the sake of righteousness, then there you go. That's an easy one. But if you're like a paramilitary guy who's put on a hit squad to go shoot up some, you know, quote unquote terrorist guarding their opium farm just because well, those are the bad guys, quote unquote. I I don't you gotta be real careful with that.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:23

Yeah, dude, and that and that's what that's what intimidates me is like recr the people who recruit for war love to paint the world in blacks and whites, and the simple fact is like No, they don't do that anymore. Not not segregation, not not that kinds of blacks and whites. We don't do that anymore. America's way too, way too, way too diverse for that. There's way too many colors to incorporate in that crayon box. But no, like people like dude, even when you watch, if you're watching like the freaking NFL game and you'll see an uh it uh a commercial for the army or for the marines, and it makes it look like you're about to join, you know, black ops call of duty, like some like video game where you're taking down evil people. And the reality is that's not that's a complete overexaggeration. And I I think when I look at the history here, I do think I understand. I don't want to be completely idealist that I come that I lose sight of like flesh and blood necessities. I do think, I think I I commiserate most with Basil, where I'm like, I don't think that war is an out and out wrong, but I also think the trajectory shift that happened under Constantine led to the Crusade 600 years later, where they were able to justify and even like create uh uh what's it called, uh an indulgence over shedding the blood of their enemies. Um, I also think that's what turned into a lot of the really awful, oppressive colonial exploits that happened under most European nations that you know ravaged through parts of Asia, Africa, South America, like creating these awful, ugly systems led by the sword. Like I think that when we got this power, I do think there were some benefits of the spread of Christianity. I also think there was a lot of grime and dirt and ugliness to it.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:25

Well, and true Christianity in some cases they were told to stop it by the powers it be. Right. Like the the in India, William Carey and friends was getting in trouble with the local British governments because they were like, you're causing problems with the native population by converting them to Christianity. You're getting in the way of my money.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:45

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've heard stories of governments that didn't want native populations to convert to Christianity because that meant that they now qualified as citizens who had more rights.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:58

Right, which is like gross. But that's I think that if there's any big takeaway to this is what you tell the young man is like, this is really messy, and you need to have discernment for what you're going to do. Yeah. You need to have discernment. Yeah. I think you can serve in the United States military with a good conscience. Uh because you're also not if you get asked to go on uh you're uh if you somehow get to the level of like paramilitary operator, which is basically like ex-special forces. Right. So John, you're probably not getting there, bud, you know. Yeah. Uh but if you did and you were asked to go with the DEA back in 2014 and go hit up, you know, Abu Dhabi's opium farm and wipe him out, uh, and you said, I don't think I'm gonna go on that mission. You you might leave that might be career ending, but they're not gonna kill you. They're not gonna kill you for it. Yeah. You can go back home and work at a tire shop. Yeah, sure. So uh that what am I saying to say? I do.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:04

And honestly, dude, like I know I'm I'm pushing and I'm nudging a little bit, but I think ultimately my advice to the young dude would be very similar. I think that, you know, I had I had to really dig into my own theologic theological, traditional roots about this, and like, you know, still having that fondness for the Dutch Reform, the Kuipers, the Bobbings. Like, I believe that when we engage with the world, we should engage with a prophetic witness, which means you Christians should be CEOs of gigantic companies. They should not conform to the uh massive money-making exploits of the average CEO. Like, in everything, you should be an example and you should not cave to what you're called to do. And I think that like the US military, which I have a lot of love for, both my parents served, you know, very interesting. Piece of John Simon Lore. I was my daddy served. Your daddy served. I dude, I was talking to a recruiter for like weeks before when I got out of college. I was thinking about going in to serve. Like both my grandpappies served, my grand, my granddaddy served in World War II. That's a real thing. See, there you go. Didn't like it too much. Um but didn't have fun, didn't have a good time. Did not have a good time. But I I think that what I what I long to see more of from Christians is like entering a space and not assuming that, oh, because I'm in the military, I have to play ball, because that's what it means to be in the military. It's like, no, be in the military, be a representative of Christ, and be that shaping, gospel-centered influence that tries to bring a level of humanization back to the enemies that were so casually murdering. And if there comes a time when, yeah, you have to defy your your your Christ-given Holy Spirit morals, then you stay, no, I'm not gonna do this. And if that means a court martial or a dishonorable discharge, like be a martyr. Like you're not getting fed to lions, like consider that a privilege, it's a blessing, dude.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:14

Right. But same thing if you're if you're in the business world and you're not willing to make some shady deals and it costs you Yeah, dude, absolutely. Trust the Lord. Yeah, like there's a I think that's good. It's it's it's very nuanced. Yes, Johnny, Johnny nuanced, but hey, I think all things are, right? Like nothing's easy, uh, especially when it comes to the To the Christians navigating the world. For sure. For sure. And we want them to be easy though. We want that. We want everything to be black and white. Or between the blacks and the whites, as you said earlier.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:50

We want everything to be both Anglo Saxon or African American. Yeah. Man. Yeah, no, I I agree. And I think to be Christians in a complicated world, we have to be willing to have complicated conversations and think complicatedly and um Yeah. And also, I just think from all of this, if if all of these quotes, even the ones from those who were more favorable towards war, teach us anything, it should be that the taking of a life should be costly and burdensome. I don't think that anyone should be able to just like you know, watch a Cuban boat full of drug dealers blow up and be like, ha ha, got em boys, smoke a cigar.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:31

Like I'm like, no, if you are the drone pilot blowing up that little base of ISIS fighters, like you should at least Yeah, it might be the right thing to do. That might be objectively the right thing to do, but you should still feel the weight of it, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:46

Yeah, yeah. And also I think you have to remember that, you know, people lie all the time. And you might be blowing up a bunch of ISIS people that turns out it's a bunch of, you know, families.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:59

If that yeah, though, so I that's a whole nother discussion, and I feel absolutely terrible when that does happen, dude. Like artillery strikes and then they find out that they were given wrong coordinates or that they fired the shells and then the shells are in the air, and then they're like, There's kids in there, did you know?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:17

And they're like, Well, but they're hidden, so Dude, it's like if if if I lent someone twenty dollars and they said they were gonna buy like a couple bags of chips at the grocery store, and then it turns out they went and they like bought drugs, I'd be like, You lied to me, and you used something that I gave you for for objective bad.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:38

Yeah, for you.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:38

And it's like if I'm in the military and I drop a bomb on some on some ops and it turns out there were a bunch of women and children there, that's the same thing. Like you lied to me and you put blood on my hands. Like, dude, I'm not playing this game. Like prophetic witness doesn't require authority or power, it just requires the ability to speak to those with authority and power. And if that requires and if that leads to consequences, so be it. Walk with Christ. The Lord's in charge, baby. All right, I get a little passionate about this stuff. All right, guys, thanks so much for listening. I love you guys. Thank you for so much for listening. If you have thoughts, share them in our comment section wherever you are. But again, if you want to engage this conversation more, join our Discord. We would love to talk about this even more. I'd love to hear from a pure pacifist. I love pacifists. Gunny, Gunny Mennonites. Yeah, look, Quakers, maybe. I know some Quakers. I love the Quakers. So anyway, yes. Thank you, John. Great episode. Of course. Thank you, dude. Yeah, this was a lot of fun. And I think it was an interesting one to cover after we've uh just talked about so much both justified and maybe not so justified bloodshed in the in the Crusades. It was interesting to just go back to a time when everyone was like, killing people is gross. I don't ever want to do that. It's like it's like awesomenes, but anyways. Yeah. Well, thank you guys so much for listening. As always, you guys are the best. We love you bunches. Um, remember, this episode's gonna drop on the 18th of August. On the 29th of August is our Kingdom of Heaven watch party, 5 p.m. Pacific Standard Time. Be there. We're gonna have giveaways. Uh, not just Taylor writing autographs for people. He recommended that and I shot it down. Uh no, we're gonna have fun giveaways. We're gonna goof off and have fun and watch a movie that um is rated R, but not for any of the reasons that we should feel bad about. Um for violence, which we just talked about is oh no, we can't watch this movie. Get out of here. All right, all right. All right, we love you guys. We'll see you guys next time and have a uh wonderful day.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:49

Night night, bye-bye.