Is It Them or Is It You? The Truth About Toxic Leadership

Bullying often hides in plain sight, wrapped in polished charm and shifting rules that leave you doubting your memory. Author, executive and consultant, Jane Phipps joins me to pull the mask off toxic and narcissistic leadership and get practical about how to spot the patterns, protect your energy, and keep your team safe without sacrificing your career.

We start by naming the behaviours that erode confidence: gaslighting disguised as “feedback,” image management that crumbles under stress, and mood-driven standards that keep everyone on edge. Jane shares how early life dynamics can prime high-performing women to normalise dysfunction, then walks through simple, effective tools: short confirmation emails that anchor facts, body cues that signal a line has been crossed, and candid check-ins with trusted peers to counter isolation. We dig into gendered nuances—overt versus covert tactics—and why hybrid work can amplify manipulation when there are fewer witnesses and weak feedback loops.

From there, we pivot to solutions at two levels. Individually, we use the umbrella test to decide when loyalty becomes self-harm and how to exit with clarity. Organisationally, we challenge the promotion of high-image, low-empathy operators and argue for better screening for emotional intelligence, 360 feedback, and leadership coaching that builds genuine relational skill. The alternative isn’t soft; it’s heart-centred leadership: showing up as a real human, setting firm boundaries, assuming positive intent, and creating psychological safety so people can do their best work.

If you’ve ever left a meeting second-guessing your reality, this conversation offers language, tools, and courage. Subscribe for more candid, research-informed conversations about work, leadership, and wellbeing, share this with someone who needs backup today, and leave a quick review to help these stories reach more women.

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Transcript

Setting The Summer Sessions Vision

Jo Stone (Host) 0:04

Welcome to the Balance and Beyond Summer Sessions. Conversations to reignite your vision for the year ahead. Each episode, I speak with women who've built success without sacrifice and turned burnout into breakthrough. Their stories aren't about doing more. They're about becoming the woman who builds a life she actually loves. If you're ready to step into 2026 with clarity and conviction, take a breath and let's dive right in. Welcome to Balance and Beyond. Today I am joined by Jane Fip, an author, executive, and consultant. And we are talking about the hidden secret lurking in our organizations. Welcome, Jane.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

Thank you. So nice to be here. Always ready to have a chat.

Jo Stone (Host) 0:48

Absolutely. Jane, there is something that many of us have experienced but is often swept under the carpet in organizations. Tell me, what is it? It's bullying.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Toxic leadership and narcissistic leadership. Um, bullying is one of those things that happens in the workplace, and uh you often the bully leaves the organization, never to be heard of again, and it just keeps going. So literally swept under the carpet.

Profiles Of Toxic And Narcissistic Leaders

Jo Stone (Host) 1:20

Absolutely. What have you noticed are some profiles of toxic leaders? Because you mentioned this word narcissistic, it's a buzzword now. Everyone's like, yeah, narcissistic, and we're kind of throwing it around left, right, and center. What have you noticed in your experience of dealing with this type of leadership?

SPEAKER_00 1:36

Um, I think I'd like to start with the fact I was brought up by a narcissistic father. So narcissism has been in my DNA from a very early age. So what I find is my body reacts. So I learnt as a child to make myself small so I wasn't a target, to make sure that I never made him look bad because that made me a target. I learnt to read the room when I walked into the room to see what mood I was I was walking into. And that translated straight into the workplace. So what I've noticed with um toxic leaders or narcissistic leaders is you've got to start reading the room, start reading the the the tone and the mood because you're not going to get the same person every day. You go, oh, that that's a that's a that day. That's a that day. And um that's how I I've started, and I get I get sucked in. You get get sucked in because they're very good at they're very good at the polish, they're very good at at the image management, and and then uh it starts to crumble and you start to see the real the real person come through. And that's very much what I learned as a child.

Jo Stone (Host) 2:52

Yeah. Yeah, one of the traits of narcissistic leaders can be that they gaslight you and make you think it's your fault, that they're all fine and it's all in your head. How have you dealt with that, having had a lot of firsthand experience, unfortunately, with toxic leadership in your corporate career? How do we handle this?

SPEAKER_00 3:11

That's a that's a really good question. Because I think the first thing is recognizing it, because we all like to hear the um the praise and then and then and have the conversations. You know, as an adult manager, as an adult leader, you you want to hear that feedback and that praise and have those conversations. And then the next time it comes up, you're told, I never said that. You know, you misunderstood, you didn't hear me. I I think the first time it happens, you you I've let it go. I mean, it's a it's when it becomes a pattern that you then go, uh, this is gaslighting, there's a pattern here, I need to deal with it. And how I deal with it is through email. Thank you, thank you for the chat. Just want to confirm my memory. You know, I've had a big week, a lot in my brain. I really need just to confirm this is what we said, you know, thanks for the conversation and get it done in writing in and in email. And in in one instance, I did that, and my uh male manager wasn't that far away, came flying out of his office and said, Why did you send me that email? And I said, just simply for what I've said. It's been a big week, and I need to confirm that I've understood you correctly. And he walked back in his office and I thought, yeah, he knows why I'm doing it. Yeah. And I that's become a my pattern to just um just to confirm. Doesn't have to be wordy, just a couple of dollars bullet points.

Bullying’s Roots And Personal Impact

Jo Stone (Host) 4:51

Absolutely. And so, what was your experience with bullying? I know this is something that has been at the foundation of the work that you now do. Talk us through what obviously you said it started off with a narcissistic parent. How did that flow through into the workplace? And how did you come out the other side?

Shame, Validation, And Boundaries

SPEAKER_00 5:10

Um I think it to start with, it flowed into the workplace by I didn't know anything different. So I went straight into male-dominated environments because I um I I have a maths degree by background, and I went straight, I I got a job as a mathematician, so I went straight into male environments. So I I had my male father as the example, and then I went into these environments. I didn't know anything different. I really didn't. I had a stalker in my very first job. He used to watch me through my office door, and when I went to um bring it to someone's attention, I was sent on training because it was my fault. So quite, I was only in my 20s, uh, quite. Um so I didn't know. I didn't know to start with. So it was just there. I didn't know anything different, and then I started to feel it in my body like this is not right, I'm anxious, I'm I'm not coping, I don't want to go to work, I'm crying on Sunday nights, this is not normal. And um, then I started to see the patterns again, the patterns on how I was being spoken to and how I was treated. And once I could label it and see it, I think at first it made it worse because I went, oh, victim, victim. And then I went, okay, no, I know what I'm dealing with. No, I'm not what I'm dealing with. And uh, being in uh the daughter of a narcissistic parent, you learn to shut down and not say anything. And I learned to start talking, trusting someone and saying, hey, I'm having this experience. And when you start validating it or testing it out with other people, you realise there is another world out there. This is not normal, this is not normal. And so then I started techniques in the workplace, setting boundaries, better boundaries in the workplace, um, keeping up those conversations with girlfriends outside that work somewhere different, that that were outside, having a wine or two and a chat. Yeah, and then and coming home and and normalizing it, normalizing your life, going, yeah, that was a bad day. It's not me. And I would like to say that it was a quick fix, it wasn't. That lasted for decades. I was bullied in the workplace for decades. And it I got to a point where I met um the worst one ever, and I rang lifeline. It really got that bad. And I found a therapist, and she labeled it abuse. What I was experiencing as a child was abuse, what I was experiencing in the workplace was abuse, and again, having that label allowed me to go into therapy and really talk about what I was feeling and what I'd experienced. And I have to say, I mean, I'm now in the best place I've ever been. Certainly with my father dying and me writing the book, I I uh I wish I'd done this years ago. Yeah.

Jo Stone (Host) 8:24

Yeah. Do you find is there a pattern in the work you now do of perhaps those who've grown up with narcissistic parents being perhaps more susceptible to bullying in the workplace because it's all they've ever known?

SPEAKER_00 8:35

I I actually have seen, I can't say I have a large pool, sample pool, but I certainly interviewed a few people for my book, and there are a few stories in my book, and a pattern starts to emerge that if it wasn't narcissistic uh parent in childhood, there was some sort of emotional uh neglect. I wouldn't say I don't want to use the word abuse because I it's their story, but some sort of neglect. Um there's absolutely a pattern and for my for my learning, I like to I like to think I I say I wasn't given the coping skills because I I wasn't giving them as a child, um, does not excuse workplace bullying in any way, shape, or form, but it's um I think there is something to be said for that, yeah.

unknown 9:34

Yeah.

Male Versus Female Toxicity Patterns

Jo Stone (Host) 9:34

And is that, I guess, your philosophy now of wanting to inform people about how to deal with toxic leadership? We don't want to excuse it and have it being swept under the carpet. But if more people, particularly women, are able to understand what is happening to them, realize that perhaps it's not their fault for them to talk about it, for them to get the support to hold boundaries or pushback that they cannot be, they can't stop the bullies, but they can stop the impact on their life.

SPEAKER_00 10:03

Absolutely. The one thing that is not spoken about with bullying is the shame. So to go and talk to someone is difficult. This this one where I was on the when I was drinking Lifeline, I was ashamed. I I'm a I'm a serious professional that's really good at her job. How did I get here? And the the toxicity that you work in perpetuates that shame. And to me, the way to break that is normalize it, talk about it. It's happening to a lot of people. Call it out, talk about it, tell someone we need to speak about it more everywhere.

Jo Stone (Host) 10:49

Have you found in your experience? I know you said you're in male-dominated environments, a lot of my career was in a similar place. And I tended to find that yes, sometimes the male bullies were very overt and they were crass, and they would make downright inappropriate comments. But I often found the toxic leaders were often women. And I still remember the day someone said to me, I crawled over broken glass to get here. You're gonna do the same. What's been your experience of male toxic leadership versus female? And are there any differences?

Loyalty, Leaving, And The Umbrella Test

SPEAKER_00 11:25

Isn't that an awful thing to say to someone? I've I've crawled over broken glass, so you can cut your knees along the way as well. Yeah. I found with male toxic leaders, you can see them coming. They're still unpleasant, but they are um, they're more overt. They're more, and you're right, they they're crass and they make the most inappropriate jokes. They're probably better now than when I started the workforce and when there's a lot more legislation in place now. Um, but they're still nasty, it's still difficult, but they're there. I found with females, um there's a lot more manipulative, they're much nicer to your face. It takes you a little bit longer for you to see the pattern and go, oh gosh, I've been sucked in again, or here we go again. Um, but it it and I often find that they like to find a friend. They travel in pairs. Yeah. And I through COVID, I uh one in particular client side I was working on, and they were they were tag teaming on on Zoom. And um it was it was one would be nice, one wouldn't, and then it would swap the other way around and go, yeah, it it's much more manipulative, it's it's much hidden. I don't uh yeah, it's more hidden. Takes a little bit longer to bubble up.

Jo Stone (Host) 12:58

It does, and it's like year nine, hit your heart out all over again. It's like high school in the work face mingle. I know I've never been able to watch men girls.

SPEAKER_00 13:06

I don't think I could cope with it.

Jo Stone (Host) 13:10

One thing that I know many people struggle with when they're faced with toxic leadership situations, particularly when they're either you know on fellow executive teams, is this emotional tug of war that you want to leave and you think, right, I've I can't stand this anymore. But there's some form of love or loyalty to the team or to your colleagues, and you really worry about what happens after you go. Can you talk to us about how do you navigate that chasm or big fight within you?

Hybrid Work And Remote Gaslighting

SPEAKER_00 13:41

Yeah, that's a tough one because I always get passionate about where I work, not just the people, but what the organization's doing. I I I buy into it because that's what drives me. And I also love leading people, it's my favorite thing to do. So you're quite right. Is that tug then? Um I like to think of myself holding an umbrella when I lead people. So everything comes down. I'm not going to use that word, but you know what I mean? Everything comes down. And I've got the umbrella up and my team's underneath me. So it stops with me. I deal with that, stops with me, and I can let them be their true selves, be safe, be comfortable, and do their job. So I can maintain that until it gets to a point where the umbrella starts to disintegrate and it starts to get holes in it because it's just been bombarded that hard. And when when it starts to come through and my boundaries start to to waver, and I'm not protecting my team as much as I like to, that's when I have to make the the conscious decision. Like it's it's I'm no, it's not coming through, it's affecting more than me. It's when's the moment that it's fair to leave. Yeah. Um, but it's very hard. It's very hard, especially when you build a good team and you're high performing and and you're getting things done and you go, Yeah, I I've got to. And at the end of the day, we should listen to the uh this the hosties on the aeroplane. You put your own oxygen mask on first.

Jo Stone (Host) 15:28

Yeah, absolutely. One other point around toxic leadership, how have you found over the last half decade or say since COVID, that this toxic leadership is playing out in the work from home hybrid work debate? Do you find that it's easier to be a more toxic leader when you are remote versus when you have to see them every day, or does it not make a difference?

SPEAKER_00 15:51

I think it's easier to be more toxic when it's remote. Yeah. Yeah. I I find that when people when you're in the room with people and you have to look them in the eyes, it's much harder to be to gaslight people or to be rude to people, but over Zoom, it's uh there's a distance, there's a remoteness, there's a distance, and I think when you're toxic, um what words am I I'm trying to find here? Toxic leaders and narcissistic leaders lack emotional intelligence in general. They don't read the room, they don't have as many emotions, they fake it. When you're in a room with someone, it's much um harder to disconnect. I believe when we're over Zoom, when you're a leader with very little emotional intelligence, you can you can you're definitely not getting any feedback loops. Well, you and I haven't a chat, we haven't met each other, but we can we can have a laugh and a giggle and you know you can feel each other. We don't have to be in the room, but I believe with toxic leaders, when they're when they're remote like this, they definitely don't have that ability.

unknown 17:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:19

And it can also be you go. And I've observed it. I've actually I've actually thought it and thought, I'm gonna test it out here. Yeah.

Jo Stone (Host) 17:28

I think it can also harder be harder to be more toxic if you have to bump into them in the lunchroom when you're getting a cup of tea, you know, whereas on Zoom you can just drop the bomb, leave, gaslight, and there's no way for them to double check or clarify something with you in the casual corridor conversation. So you can be almost harder and ruder, as you said, you can gaslight more effectively when there's no little sideways to get in. And there's no one overhearing anything. Yeah, good point. No one else walking past the room or seeing a tense conversation and watching body language.

Preventing Toxicity And Rethinking Hiring

SPEAKER_00 18:04

Yeah. Yeah. One of the um one of the things many, many years ago where I worked, someone commented they could see my body language when I walked out of my manager's office. They could see the distress in my body. You had to be physically there to see that. Yeah. Although I would just like to say, I'm not suggesting we all go back to work in the office full time because this hybrid work is great.

Jo Stone (Host) 18:29

Yes. But I guess that also goes to if you are around toxic leadership, to normalize and to make sure that you're not making it up and you don't think that it's only happening to you. If you are face to face, even if it's one day a week, you can then have those more casual conversations with colleagues. You can watch how that other person who perhaps is gaslighting you, oh, they're gaslighting other people as well. So you can you can have more opportunities to not drown in your own shame and suffering. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 19:02

Absolutely. I mean, I've said it's shameful to be bullied. You know, you feel a sense of shame. You also feel a sense of loneliness and isolation. So that is perpetuated if you're at home full time. Whereas if you you're in the office even one or two days a week, you're absolutely spot on. Yeah.

Jo Stone (Host) 19:21

So how do we avoid becoming toxic leaders? The the grand old question, how do we stop this happening?

SPEAKER_00 19:29

That's a really good question. Do we do we avoid becoming toxic leaders or do we start looking at the people that go into leadership positions? I I think I think I I think there's two things. One is that the leaders, the people that go into leadership can have some training and some maybe therapy, so that broken people don't go into toxic people don't go into leadership. But I I do think. And we've all seen it that um people rise, people rise to the top. I uh I know of of one female bully and I know a few people that have worked with her, and she has moved from executive position to executive position across big organizations, and there's been no comeback on her. How does she keep getting those positions? Yeah. Maybe we need to look at that.

Jo Stone (Host) 20:30

And there's a lot of talk at the moment about, I guess, the opposite of toxic leadership, which is more heart-centered leadership. What would you say are the traits or characteristics in order for us to become more of a heart-centered leader who can protect our team and you know be human in that whole process?

SPEAKER_00 20:49

I like to equate heart-centered leadership to being a real human being. So when I go to work in my heart-centered mode, I take myself, flaws in all. There's definitely boundaries in place because you're in a workplace, but I don't pretend to be something else. I don't perform, I don't manage my image. I go in as a real human being and I treat everyone with respect and dignity and humanity. We're all flawed human beings. We're all striving to go to work, do the best we can for an organization and work with nice people. And if you trust, if you trust that that's what we're all there for, with positive intent, then that's the opposite to toxic leadership. Yeah. I think one of the things I have come across in the past is I've had to say, why did you assume I hadn't malintent when I said that or I did that? I always approach things with with positive intent. If you're seeing it another way, that's your lens, not mine.

Final Reflections And Next Steps

Jo Stone (Host) 21:53

Yeah, really important point, I think, for all leaders. It's their interpretation of what you said. And when so many women have a pattern of being over-responsible for the thoughts and feelings of others, it's very easy to then go, oh, oh my gosh, they they thought that I meant this, but I really didn't. And they tear themselves up in knots and then drown under the weight of that responsibility instead of just saying, I came with positive intent, that's on them. That's their filter, that's their interpretation, that's their background, their trauma. That's not for me to hold.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

That's right. It says a lot more about them than it does about you.

Jo Stone (Host) 22:29

Absolutely. So finally, any closing words, Jane, for our audience? Anything we haven't talked about that we needed to.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

I would just like to say the reason I wrote my book was to start these conversations because you can let's go back to the shame. You can think you're a victim. What is wrong with me if you're being bullied in the workplace, particularly if it happens it over and over again? It's not. A very lovely therapist said to me many years ago, it's not, it's not um sorry, I fumbled their choke. Um, this there a very good therapist said to me long ago, only very talented professional women walk into my office from being bullied. It's so I think that's what we need to remember and start talking about it. It's not you, it's happening everywhere. Start talking about it. And I think that's uh we can send a message out into the world if we start talking about it. And let's see the ripple effects of being heart-centered and and not sweeping things under the rug.

Jo Stone (Host) 23:46

Absolutely. And I love that to not only be heart-centered, but then for those who are being bullied to also step up to the plate and say, okay, I'm going to heal my wounds so that I'm not susceptible to the bullying. I'm going to learn how to hold boundaries. I'm going to learn how to spot the narcissist and manage my feelings and reduce those feelings of shame. So I think if we can do all of those things together, then the opportunity to reduce the impact is huge. And hopefully, those toxic bullies who are littered everywhere, particularly in corporate Australia, that maybe they aren't as effective as they have previously been. Sounds great, doesn't it? It does. Well, thank you, Jane, for joining us today. Some important considerations for you, whether you have been a victim of toxic leadership, but they are out there, so you now know how not to sweep it under the carpet and how to protect yourself from the impact. Thanks, Jane. Thank you. Thanks for being here today. If this episode moved you, share it with a woman who needs it. And if you're feeling generous, a quick review helps these stories reach more women. To go deeper and to start shaping your 2026 vision, visit balanceinstitute.com. See you next time.