The Surprising Power of Play for High Achievers

Meetings don’t need more sticky notes; they need better thinking. We sit down with Cate Sefton to explore how structured play — especially Lego Serious Play — turns flat brainstorms into 3D strategy, elevates quiet voices, and surfaces ideas that actually move teams forward. Kate breaks down why hands-on metaphors matter, how great facilitation changes the questions we ask, and why joy is not a luxury but a performance edge.

From there, we zoom out to the tectonic shift happening with AI. Brand isn’t fading; it’s becoming the filter that gets you found and remembered. We unpack how emotional connection helps a brand cut through algorithmic sameness, and what that means for personal branding on LinkedIn when fewer than one percent post. AI can prime the pump, but your specifics, tone and lived evidence do the heavy lifting. We talk practical ways to sound like yourself, not a template, and how to keep showing up with clarity and conviction.

Cate also shares the human side of a big career: being the breadwinner across countries, the power of a supportive partner, and the boundaries that protect what matters — from Friday night no-call rules to small rituals that reset you from corporate mode to present parent. We confront judgement around non-traditional roles, the sting when it comes from other women, and the antidote of solidarity. Finally, we tackle ageism, confidence dips and the tendency to discount decades of experience because of a new tool. The reminder is simple and strong: you’re not alone. Find your wing women, name your value, and ask for help.

If the conversation sparked something for you, follow the show, share it with a woman who’d benefit, and leave a quick review so these stories reach more ears. Ready to shape a braver 2026? Visit balanceinstitute.com and let’s build it together.

The Balance & Beyond Podcast Hosted by Jo Stone, founder of The Balance Institute

For women who are already succeeding, but beginning to wonder if they're willing to keep losing themselves in the process.

We know high achievers, because we are one. This podcast draws on Jo's 20 years in global leadership and thousands of hours coaching executives and ambitious women: the patterns she sees, how to untangle them, and what it actually takes to keep your success without paying for it with yourself.

If something landed today, there's more where that came from.

And if you know a woman this would resonate with, send it her way.

🎙️https://www.balanceinstitute.com/podcast
🔗 www.balanceinstitute.com
💼https://au.linkedin.com/in/stonejoanne
📷 @therealjostone

Transcript

Summer Sessions Setup

Jo Stone (Host) 0:04

Welcome to the Balance and Beyond Summer Sessions. Conversations to reignite your vision for the year ahead. Each episode, I speak with women who've built success without sacrifice and turned burnout into breakthrough. Their stories aren't about doing more, they're about becoming the woman who builds a life she actually loves. If you're ready to step into 2026 with clarity and conviction, take a breath. Let's dive right in. Welcome to Balance and Beyond. Today I am joined by the wonderful Kate Sefton. Hello, Kate. Hey Joe, thanks for having me. Thank you. You're a woman of many talents. You're a mum, you're executive. But there's one bullet on your LinkedIn profile that's a little bit unusual. It says Lego Serious Play Facilitator. Can you tell me more about that?

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Sure. So whilst uh, yes, you're right, I was an executive. One of my roles was capability building quite a while ago. And in capability building and strategy, I often found that ideas just, you know, that standard brainstorming and brain fog kind of didn't really work and you didn't get anything really creative. And I came across through a friend of mine called Sandra, uh, Lego Serious Play. And it's just this incredible tool that can uh it levels the room. So execs participate, the ABM can participate, everyone has to speak. So it's from extroverts, introverts, and it's a great way to unlock creativity because you think, you build, you connect, you add meaning, and it just unlocks a whole different part of your brain because you've got all these receptors in your hands that are different than your mouth and your eyes and your ears, and it just means that you get lots and lots of different ideas. So it's a fantastic tool, it can be used for strategy, vision, um, conflict resolution. It's just it's hugely versatile, and it all comes down to the questions that you ask as part of the facilitation. And I love it. It's just a fantastic, fantastic tool.

Jo Stone (Host) 2:17

Are you a Lego person anyway? Do you like building with Lego, or is it just kind of this opportunity?

SPEAKER_01 2:23

So uh yes, I'm a Lego person. Uh luckily, we're not in another room and you'd go, how does she have so much Lego? Uh not only that, my mother kept all my Lego from when I was a child. And in 20, when she moved house uh years and years ago, they downsized it. She handed me all my Lego from the 1970s and 80s from when I was a young child, and I still have all of that. My child's into Lego. She doesn't like flowers dying, so she has Lego flowers in her room, so she'd rather that than a plant. So, no, no, we we have a lot of Lego in our house.

unknown 3:02

Awesome.

Jo Stone (Host) 3:04

Um I do love that it's a serious play, not fun play. It's like we've got to put some kind of work label on it just to say serious play.

From Childhood Lego To Certified Facilitator

SPEAKER_01 3:12

Yeah, I mean, I think it's because it's it's what I'm gonna call structured play. So you want to be in flow, which is really important to get the best results out of it, and you really have to monitor that as a facilitator, but it's not pure play of joy, you know, the it's not meaningless play, which by the way has an amazing place in the world, and people should always do meaningless play as well. But in this case, it is more structured, which is why they call it serious play.

Jo Stone (Host) 3:38

Okay. I love feel like it should be underlined at the very end. So that's from Lego.

SPEAKER_01 3:42

I mean, Lego did it themselves, they open sourced it in 2010. So anyone can look it up. Uh, I could never have been a great facilitator just by reading what was online from open source. I think there were just some nuance there that you can you learn by being a certified and going to someone to help teach you. Uh, but yeah, other than that, it was you can look it up and do it. I just I just I definitely needed that extra structure around it to be able to make sure that I could use it more purposefully.

Why Structured Play Works

Jo Stone (Host) 4:14

Yeah, absolutely. Let's talk about play for a second, because you mentioned joy and that's a whole other topic. But what role does play have in unlocking? You mentioned it's great at getting into flow and unlocking creativity. Particularly these days, a lot of people can feel really jammed up. They can struggle for new ideas, they can struggle to be heard in a setting. What role does play, whether it's Lego or fun or other things? How does that work?

Play As A Creativity Engine

SPEAKER_01 4:40

So I actually think play is really, really important. And, you know, Google years ago, I mean, you always you always used to hear about the foosball tables and the ping pong and all that kind of stuff. And I think in some ways people thought that was quite dismissive and frivolous. And yet it's a form of play. And uh Hasbro actually really recently, and I understand they're a toy company, um, released this great study on play and how um it rekindles joy, it overcomes isolation and loneliness, that it's not just for kids. Uh, I think in business it helps unstuck the stuck, is how is the only way I can kind of think about it. And sometimes it can be it can be pipe cleaners and paper. Uh, Lego is something that you know has its own science behind it, I said, because of the clicking of the bricks and all that kind of stuff. But you know, if you can't do Lego, it can be music. We've we had a drummer once in a session to be able to help uh unlock the rhythm, it was the rhythm of innovation, and he was able to come in and help us play around that. So it can be music, it can be art, it can be Lego, but it really helps people get out of their own head and their self-consciousness, and it's a leveler. As I said, I you know, Lego series play, the exec manager has to participate, the assistant manager has to participate, the quietest meekest person who never wants to speak has to participate. And it's great because uh you get to such brilliant ideas from people who you know who are able to express them and haven't in what I'd call a standard brand's normal meaning because 20% of the room take up 80% of the oxygen, and in Lego serious play, that can't happen. That's not that's just doesn't work that way. So yeah, it's um but play is brilliant. I actually saw a post you did on play, and I went 100% agree with you. It is it's something that humans have that AI doesn't, and it is going to be something that's gonna be more and more important as we move through various stages of technology.

Overcoming Adult Resistance To Play

Jo Stone (Host) 6:53

Why do you think we have so much resistance to it? You said the word before, play is not just for kids. And that's what most adults like, I don't have time to play. Have you seen my list? Have you seen how much I've got to do? That's frivolous, that's for over there. I haven't done that since I was seven. What's our resistance to play, in your opinion?

SPEAKER_01 7:10

Uh, I think there's probably two things. One would be this whole idea of I don't understand the purpose of it. So that's the first thing. I think as adults, we always go, oh, we need a purpose for what we do sometimes. And yet it has a purpose, and people haven't made that link. So that's I think the first thing. And I think the second is as adults, we are so much more self-conscious. So if you're playing, say if you're doing dress up, you know, you don't, or dolplay or role play, you even role play, which is a form of play in in work, you can feel the resistance. Oh, I don't want to roleplay, oh, I don't want to go up there, oh, I'm really self-conscious. Uh, so it's all that kind of stuff. So I think there is that we self-conscious ourselves out of it a little bit as well.

Jo Stone (Host) 7:55

Which I guess strangles the joy out of it.

SPEAKER_01 7:57

Strangles the joy out of it. I'm not a big fan of roleplay myself, actually, but I do understand. I understand its purpose. I know that it adds something to what you're doing. And actually to overcome that self-conscious fear is actually where you'll learn and grow the most anyway. So you go, I I always think you just couldn't do it. It's okay. Be uncomfortable, be comfortable being uncomfortable.

Jo Stone (Host) 8:25

I know, but it still can be tricky like you. I'm not a huge role-play fan, but I do know that a lot of women, we do talk about play and joy in these things, but I think sometimes the purpose in playing is to have no purpose. Yes, correct. And we almost kind of get like to do something purely for the enjoyment and pleasure of it. We are so stuck in our heads and ROI driven. It's like, if I'm gonna go take half an hour out, do this thing, what am I gonna get from it? Am I gonna learn? Is that gonna tick off my list? Is it what's it gonna do, right?

Real-World Team Sessions With Lego

SPEAKER_01 8:55

Yeah, but I the purpose of that I'm gonna call it frivolous play is actually to reduce stress, free your mind, just kind of be, and actually that'll make you better at other things and be able to help you tick off that to-do list, that meaningless just for the joy of it. We do nothing in life with joy, like you just go with no joy. It's like how sad. It's a pretty sad existence. But you're 100% right, and in business, in particular, there's this whole, what do you mean you're playing? I I ran a session once with my team, and they took photos, and two of them sent them to their partners, and the partners both came back and said, Does your boss know you're doing this? And they'll laugh at me, oh, she's running it.

Jo Stone (Host) 9:48

Yep. She's the one making us play, and they're like, You get paid to do that.

SPEAKER_01 9:54

Awesome. It was exactly, exactly like that. So it was it was one of those. It was, and literally they were taking photos. We were at an agency, and I brought all the Lego in, and we were talking about what we added to the team and kryptonite and how to get the best out of each other. And it was a and yeah, we were using Lego as a medium to be able to do that, and then where we wanted to go as a team and what our vision was and where we wanted to uh end up, what did we wanted to bring back to the business, etc. So it was used for that. But yeah, it was this whole does your boss know you're doing that?

Jo Stone (Host) 10:27

That sounds way more fun than butcher's paper, markers, which is how that's always done and post-it notes.

SPEAKER_01 10:34

No, yeah, and yeah, chuck them on the thing, and you get the same ideas then over and over and over again. This there's often some quirks in the ideas that you go, oh, this let's pull in further to that. There's some differences because of because because the Lego series play works in metaphors, you actually add meaning as you go and you can flick the model around, and suddenly you'll go, Oh, I see it this from this angle, but from this angle I see something different, and it's it's a it's a great way to because you play in 3D, it's just a bit more uh just adds a little more meaning to the whole thing.

Brand Power In The Age Of AI

Jo Stone (Host) 11:09

I guess we do live a very two-dimensional lies, don't we, in front of the screen. Yes, you know, we there's not a whole lot of 3D-ness to it. 100%, 100%. Yeah. Speaking of 3D versus 2D, there is something that is coming out a pace. You mentioned it earlier, you know, play is going to be increasingly important in an era of AI, but you've also been a brand marketer on the marketing side, being in pharma companies and FMCG companies here and internationally. I'm curious what your take on what is the role of brand moving forward in an AI era? Because I'm seeing some you call them experts, influencers, gurus saying that brand is gonna become even more important in an era of AI.

SPEAKER_01 11:52

What's your thoughts? Uh yeah, I think it'll be more important in an era of AI, actually, because AI filters everything down. So as somebody types in the whole the whole piece, I'm gonna I was gonna say not search like Google, as some people try and do on AI, which of course is not gonna get you necessarily the best results. Uh you actually need to make sure brand your brand is coming up as one. So in that in that you know, AI view. So that's one part of it. And secondly, you actually nearly need to short circuit it. So you actually want to make sure that your brand transcends that. So as people are looking for stuff, they go, oh yes, but I know that XYZ does that, etc. And they feel something for the brand because AI is very rational and logical. Um, so actually, if you can get that emotional connection to the brand, I mean, I look at me, I am an Apple phile, like so. I go, I've got an iPhone, I've got an iPad, I'm I'm talking to you on a Mac, my uh my AirPods are here, um, etc. etc. So you go, you can tell me all this other stuff about these other brands. I will 100% always go, I don't know, but I'm with Apple. I don't care how good that is, because it's that brand transcends what else would come out of AI if I was searching for a new phone or a new gadget of some description, as an example.

Building A Personal Brand With AI

Jo Stone (Host) 13:15

Yeah. What does that mean for individuals in terms of building personal brands in an era of AI? Because this is something I've been speaking about a lot on LinkedIn and with clients in my world, knowing that I think it's less than 1% of all users on LinkedIn actually post as an example.

SPEAKER_00 13:33

Oh, you mean like me?

Jo Stone (Host) 13:36

Yeah, like you, Kate. I noticed there's nothing coming from you.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

You mean totally like the person you're talking to who's on LinkedIn and I don't post. Uh, I should, I know I should, but I don't. Uh so there's a couple of things. I think AI is both a hindrance and a help on a lot of this stuff. So, where it helps is to get you started. So I always find, and I found this when I was working in corporate. One of the hardest things as a marketer is when you're going, I need to write a concept. Oh, I need to think of an insight and do this. And actually, if you can put that into AI and get the start, once you've got the start to be able to build on that and go, that's not quite right, actually, I'd tweak this. It's actually speeds up the process a lot because sometimes the hardest bit is those four, those first, oh, I don't know, don't know exactly what to write. And I feel the same with personal branding, right? Sometimes if you go, Oh, I've got some thoughts about this, I could actually get a start on what I want to say, and you can help then post on LinkedIn. The flip side of that is everyone can start to sound the same unless you tailor it. And from a personal brand point of view, it looks like a cookie-cutter approach. And I certainly can read stuff. My husband's a tertiary teacher, he can read stuff and he'll just go, This has totally just been done by AI. And you can tell by either certain words or language they use. So there's kind of a bridge between the two. It can help you get started, but if you totally rely on it, it actually can damage your personal brand versus build on it.

Jo Stone (Host) 15:10

Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. But I think there's definitely something to be said for working out who I am, what I stand for, what are my values, whether you're doing that with Lego, play, brains, chat, GPT, or whatever it may be. Um, yeah, there's definitely something in how do we each build more of a brand and learn to market ourselves because who knows how many careers we're gonna have in the next 15 years, we might all be chopping and changing 25 times, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:40

I think the average person of certainly my era has three. So, but I think you know, you know, your era, children's era, our children's era, their children's, it'll be a lot more over time. But yeah, certainly my era. I'm a gen Xer, I don't pretend I'm a gen anything but a Gen Xer, most of us have three.

Redefining Having It All

Jo Stone (Host) 15:57

Yeah. Well, who knows? The world's gonna be an interesting place. Um, changing tact. I know you mentioned you're a mum, you've had a big career, obviously being a marketer. I'm curious, what have you found have been some of the biggest challenges of being all the things? We love having women on this podcast who talk to that juggle of professional life, personal life, finding time for themselves, and you know, finding that fulfillment that so many people are looking for. What are your thoughts on maybe any lessons you've learned of late or realizations you've had?

Boundaries, Support, And Self-Care

SPEAKER_01 16:34

So, probably my biggest thing is I could never have done it without the support of my husband. So I'm gonna give him a bit of a plug. Uh, so I, you're right, I had big jobs and I had them all around the world. So actually, he was the one that used to have to pack us up, find the new house, get the cars, work at the new school, what the school run was, etc. etc. So I go to without him, I think it would have been really difficult. Uh, I don't think I've paid a bill in 10 years. Uh so and these days you can schedule them, so it doesn't matter, but still, he does, he's done all of that. Uh, one thing I have always prioritized is there are certain things that I wouldn't compromise on with my child. Obviously, I'm I only have one child. So if she was in a band performance, I was gonna be there and I had it in my diary. Uh, and you know, it was I'm I'm going, or if she was playing netball or whatever it was. So there were certain things that I would, and I always made it really clear to both the people I worked alongside, worked for, etc. Uh, and in most cases it was respected. And I'm gonna say I did that when I was in my mid to late 30s. In your earlier, it's harder to set those boundaries. I think you learn as you you get older, or maybe you care less as you get older, or less about the judgment. I'm not at all. Uh so I think that was part of it as well. So I was very, I was, I would set clear guidelines. As I used to do, so I have it, I used to, in my multinational life, have a Friday night rule. I finished at six on Fridays. I don't care who asks me to be on a call at 9 p.m. on a Friday night, that is now my time. And I got asked by some pretty sending people at times, and they all got the same answer. Um, of I wouldn't do it. And I'd occasionally be quite uh passive aggressive, I'm gonna call it, and go, oh, I can't do that. But actually, I'm free on Saturday morning at nine o'clock. I know that's then, you know, 9 pm for you on Friday. How about we do it at that time? It's amazing how we guess. Funny that. Funny that, isn't it? Uh so there was that. Um, and I would also then try and cut out time. So I had a personal trainer for a number of years. That was my time for me. And people would watch and go, what do you mean by you're not gonna know what you're gonna do today, Kate? And I go, I show up, he tells me what I have to do, I do not have to make a single decision for an hour, an hour of my day, not a single decision. He tells me where I have to be, he gets the weights for me, he tells me what I have to do, and I do it. And it was actually really important to have just that time to go, nothing is wanted of me from uh I mean, yes, from a lifting, running, whatever point of view, but nothing outside of that is wanted of me. So that was one. Uh, I'm a huge reader, so I would always try and spend time to read. And when I when my daughter was very little, uh, she used to, her and my husband, when I walked into the house, would inundate me. Hi. And that I said to them, you know what, as I walk in, you've got to give me 15 minutes to just strip off the work clothes. I always used to take off the jewelry, take off the shoes, still do that when I go out and come in. And just give me that time. And that was that I'm resetting from being corporate into okay, I'm gonna sit on the floor and play. Lego, watch Dora of the Explorer. Explora, whatever it is. And I used to just get joy just sitting there watching stuff with my daughter. I just I can easily sit there and watch mindless stuff with her, which is amazing. She still watches mindless stuff at nearly 16. But it's fine. I'm happy to sit there and do that. So there's that as well. I actually think you have to define what having it all is. I think that some people we were taught you can have it all, you can have this career, and you can do this, you can do that, and do that. Um I think you can get lost in that. And Igenics were one of the first eras that that kind of got that, that you have it all. Um I just think you've got to define what that is for you, and it might not be what society has told you having it all means.

Judgement And Non-Traditional Roles

Jo Stone (Host) 20:48

Yeah, you mentioned uh you know being the breadwinner with a partner who was more of that primary carer role. Did you counter any, or I guess, speaking from his perspective, any discrimination or judgment in that different dynamic? Non-traditional dynamic, I think, is the official term. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 21:06

Yes. Uh still do sometimes, um, ironically. Uh the biggest we found was when we lived in the United States. So that was the one that uh so when we lived in Singapore and Switzerland, uh Singapore's an expat world, right? So it's not uncommon for it to be either partner. Uh Switzerland, because we were at a British we were at a British school there, uh again, they just embraced my husband. He was fantastic. It was like fantastic. They brought him into the fold and they invited him to skiing when they did that, or fresh fashion and all that kind of stuff. Um the US was the one. So when we asked people over for a play date and they realized that he was there and not me, the horror that we got from uh what do you mean by the mother's not gonna be there? And yeah, he's a really great father, he's really great with kids. I was so that was where we got it there. And invariably, if then people realised we'd lived around the world, I used to always get, oh, so what does your husband do? That's the other one. That's his assumption of so what does your husband do? Or they'd if he was standing there, they'd look at him and go, Oh, what took you there? And he would go, Yeah, you need to ask her, it was her job. It was more that so it we were lucky, as I said, Singapore and Switzerland was totally fine. Um yeah, the US was really odd, and our daughter was really young, so we wanted that social interaction. And yeah, it was like this, what do you mean? What do you mean? That it's him being home, but that's not normal. We live near New York, so it wasn't like we were in the middle of nowhere. Um just this foreign concept. And then here's interesting, I wonder I don't find it too much here.

Jo Stone (Host) 22:50

Yeah, it's an interesting concept. I wonder how much has changed because I found a lot of that too when I was traveling overseas and a lot for work, and Mick was at home with the girls, and I'd get the who's with the kids? Like, they have a father, you know, it's not called babysitting, it's called parenting, and he's equally as capable as me.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

Yeah, so I sometimes I'd also get the oh, so have you has your mother-in-law moved in to help him?

SPEAKER_00 23:14

I'm like, No, because he's more than capable. And you wouldn't ask me if my mother had moved in, had he gone away.

Jo Stone (Host) 23:23

I know, I know. Isn't it just I still find it fascinating? We're not talking about that long ago and how those stereotypes and judgments are still there, regardless of how successful or not you are. It's almost like we get judged no matter what we do, whether you stay at home, whether you work part-time, whether you have a big job, that judgment's still there, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 23:42

Yeah, a hundred, yes, yes. And it's sadly, it's usually women on women more than I find more than men I found in general. I very rarely felt judged. I mean, yes, there's exceptions to that, but in invariably when I felt judged, it was by uh a female. And I think that's sad because we really should be supporting each other.

Women Supporting Women

Jo Stone (Host) 24:05

I know, just you do you, right? You you make the choices that are right for you, and the sister should uh come up. But I've had exactly the same experience. My worst bosses have been females, most judgments have been from females. I still remember an explicit comment: I crawled over glass to get here, so I'm not gonna give you a free ride. It's like, oh bitch. Yeah, you're gonna crawl over the same glass that I had to. I went, well, how's that for helping another woman up, honey? Yeah, not working so well.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

Yeah, thank you for breaking the grass glass ceiling. But now that you've broken it, why don't you pull us all up with you?

Jo Stone (Host) 24:40

Yes, bring us all with us. Oh my gosh. Well, Kate, thank you so much for sharing your story. Is there any punny words or advice you'd like to give anyone who is struggling with unlocking innovation, their personal brand, juggling it all? Any final words?

SPEAKER_01 24:57

My one thing is you're not alone. So actually, there is as much as we've just talked about the judgment of women around you, um, you're not alone. There are some fantastic, supportive, really exceptional both men and women around who can help you with all of that. And just put up your hand and ask for help because it really does make a difference. I was on something at 10 o'clock this morning and I was like, oh, I felt so supported, and just everyone was like, Oh, I can help you with that, and I'll do this and that. And you just it's great. Uh, there are those people around, so find them because you a hundred percent do not have to do any of it alone.

Jo Stone (Host) 25:34

Awesome, Kate. Well, thank you. We look forward to seeing where the next adventure takes you.

SPEAKER_01 25:38

Yeah, thanks for having me. It was lovely to be here and speak to you, Joe.

SPEAKER_02 25:43

All right, also let me just hit a stop. How um there's just a sense of history and perspective. There's often really wide networks. So employers need to think about organizations, need to think about how to leverage those talents. Um but yeah, it's kind of what I said about just the whole thing with with the good girl thing. It's it's some of the same things. Find your wing women, your wing people who can help make sure that your value is still amplified in your space and you can do that for other people as well. If I had the magic solution for ageism and ageist sexism, I would be rich. But I think that those are some things that can be helpful. I always like to balance it between the individual strategies and like how do we team up, you know, and do this.

unknown 26:31

Yeah.

You Are Not Alone

Jo Stone (Host) 26:31

I think one other thing to stack on that is that I'm a big believer in ensuring we have enough self-belief because we've got so much evidence behind us as we do get older, as you said, wisdom, perspective, knowledge that we forget, we then focus on, well, I'm not techie enough, or I'm not not up to speed with this. And then we almost start doubting ourselves. I'm seeing a lot of older women actually start losing confidence despite often being the most knowledgeable person in the room because they've shifted the goalposts and now decided, well, I'm not completely okay with AI. So therefore I'm now not as good as that 23-year-old who's just come out of somewhere. So really owning our own expertise, building our own self-worth and continuing to do so. I believe that's a lifelong task and gift that we have to continue to give ourselves rather than just give it over to an employer or or an organization to fuel us. We've we've got to do it ourselves.

SPEAKER_02 27:25

Oh, you said that so well. I couldn't, I couldn't agree more. Yeah. And and figuring and spending doing that, those, those hopefully lifelong habits, career-long habits of reflection about what am I bringing of value? And again, if you need someone else to remind you of that and reflect that back to you, um, do that as well.

unknown 27:41

Dr.

Jo Stone (Host) 27:41

Jody, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us today. So many key takeaways. If people want to learn more about the work you do and maybe rage a little bit more, where can they find out?

Ageism, Confidence, And Self-Belief

SPEAKER_02 27:54

Thank you. Rage and come together and solve as much as we can. Yes. Um, Jodie VandenbergDaves.com is my website. I do an ongoing women's leadership intensive where we we develop this context awareness and strategies. It's called Unlocking Your Leadership Potential. I'd love to have some of your listeners check it out. And then my book is um is coming out or is out, and it is um Leading with Courage, a career-long guide for idealistic women, where you'll find these stories and strategies. And it's very much for values-driven women, especially kind of progressive, inclusive values that I think can anchor us throughout a career. Um, and and I find stories of women who did just that. Wonderful.

Jo Stone (Host) 28:42

We'll put all those details in the show notes. Go and check out everything Jody has to say. I think it's such an important conversation to have, and courage is what we are going to need very much so in the future. So, Jody, thank you for joining me. Thanks for being here today. If this episode moved you, share it with a woman who needs it. And if you're feeling generous, a quick review helps these stories reach more women. To go deeper and to start shaping your 2026 vision, visit balanceinstitute.com. See you next time.