Another ClimateTech Podcast
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Another ClimateTech Podcast
Universities are Reshaping the Future of Food with Ismäel, Lisa, and Jorge of the Alt Proteins Project
Ismaël Bawah is the SciTech Community Coordinator at the Good Food Institute Europe and the man behind the Alt Protein Project, a global student-powered initiative to transform universities into hubs for alternative protein innovation. Alongside him, we also heard from Lisa Neidhardt of Imperial College London and Jorge Guadalupe of Brazil’s Federal University of Minas Gerais—two campus leaders putting alt proteins on the academic map.
In this episode we talked about:
🌱 How the Alt Protein Project scaled to 63 active university chapters and sparked more than 20 new courses and 40+ research projects
🧬 Why fermentation is Lisa’s lab obsession—and how she’s using microbes to upcycle agricultural byproducts into food
🐔 Jorge’s role in creating Latin America’s first fried cultivated chicken (yes, really) and a new university course that ends with Shark Tank-style startup pitches
🧪 How mentorship, money, and microbes are building the alt protein talent pipeline from scratch
🎓 What it takes to get 13-year-olds (and their grandmas) excited about cultivated meat
📈 Why Brazil’s meat giants are pouring money into cultivated alternatives—and how geopolitics might do more for climate action than vibes ever will
#climatetech #alternativeproteins #futureoffood
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Whatever that dream future looks like for me or for you, I think at its core it will always involve having plenty of food, a world without hunger, and to get to that world where food is abundant, I think alternative proteins are going to be key to get to eat at the same quality and taste that we're doing right now, but only using a fraction of the resources and taste that we're doing right now, but only using a fraction of the resources.
Ryan Grant Little:Welcome to Another Climate Tech Podcast interviews with the people trying to save us from ourselves. If you're a regular listener of the podcast, you know that I'm a big fan of the Good Food Institute, so when they asked me if I'd be interested in showcasing their alternative proteins project that stretches across 80 universities globally, I was very keen. I was honored to have its organizer, ismael Bawa, join from Belgium, together with Project Chapter Lead, Jorge Guadalupe in Brazil and Lisa Neidhardt in England. I'm Ryan Grant Little, thanks for being here, Ismael as the SciTech Community Coordinator at Good Food Institute. You're the guy in charge of the Alt Protein Project. So, in short, this is a global student movement dedicated to turning universities into engines for alternative protein education, research and innovation. But what's the longer version of that and what was the impetus to start the program?
Ismaël Bawah:Yeah, thank you, Ryan. As a nonprofit working in the alternative protein space, we play a pretty unique role. We see that role as catalyzing activities and programs that are designed to benefit the ecosystem at large. When we're talking about the scientific ecosystem specifically, that includes, for example, funding open access research and attracting future scientists and innovators into this exciting field, where they can make a huge difference. The All Protein Project is a crucial component of this work. It's one way that we build long term momentum for the field.
Ismaël Bawah:So what is the Alt Protein Project? A global student movement launched by GFI back in 2020 to turn universities into hubs for alternative protein research, education and innovation. The project creates and supports student groups at universities around the world over 80 found so far giving them tools to grow their campus ecosystem for alternative proteins. Why the focus on students? Because they're future leaders of this industry and they can be the spark that gets people investing in alternative protein space. We are empowering them to push for more research that makes alternative protein tastier, more affordable and scalable, or starting new courses, building communities on campus or creating a talent pipeline for this growing industry.
Ismaël Bawah:We launched the AllProtein project to help students gain the experience and relationships to form a strong foundation for future careers in this emerging sector.
Ismaël Bawah:Each student group gets direct mentorship from GFI staff.
Ismaël Bawah:Mentoring is one role that I play for some of our chapters here in Europe, and this mentoring is aimed at helping them with the practical sides of leading a student organization, but also involves training and unlocking opportunities that are really meant to develop them into future leaders of the space.
Ismaël Bawah:In addition to that, they receive access to funding for events and research, as well as monthly calls with peers and experts and the global hub and WhatsApp community for support and collaboration. And this aspect is really valuable about this global project because it really stimulates students from different parts of the world to work together and concretely organize projects. So in this way, we help student leaders build strong cross-disciplinary communities that connect scientists, entrepreneurs and advocates all relationships that will be helpful in their future career. And then my role forms part of GFI Europe's science and technology team. The Alt Protein Project is a global initiative that every regional affiliate of GFI works on together, but it's particularly pertinent to Europe as we are home to some of the world's top research institutes and we are continuing to lead on alternative protein innovation. As someone who comes from a pretty extensive background in student extracurriculars and activities. One of the best parts of my role is being involved in this project, building momentum here by helping our talented next generation of students shape the future of food.
Ryan Grant Little:I love that approach and listeners to the podcast will know that I'm a big supporter of Good Food Institute. It's actually Good Food Institute that got me into angel investing and into investing in climate tech and specifically in all the proteins and, as I've told Natasha and Bruce and the folks at Good Food Institute, all of the shares that I've, all of the 25 investments I've made in alternative proteins. If I kick the bucket, they're left in my will to the Good Food Institute, which I hope doesn't lead anyone to push me out proteins. If I kick the bucket, they're left in my will to the Good Food Institute, which I hope doesn't lead anyone to push me out a window or anything like that, but I'm a huge supporter of the organization.
Ryan Grant Little:I really love what you're doing and I'm very happy to hear that you're engaging students and universities in this as well. I wonder you mentioned 80, I think you used the number 80, like chapters maybe are different ways that you're plugged in. Can you just talk about some of the numbers so far of what you've achieved and maybe a little bit about kind of what the vision is going forward?
Ismaël Bawah:Yes, absolutely so. 80 founded so far, not all of them active anymore At the moment. We've built an incredible global network of 63 universities with active student groups at this moment dedicated to growing the alternative protein ecosystem on their campuses. Now, in terms of achievements, these groups have helped launch over 20 new university courses and modules focused on alternative proteins, making education around this field more accessible and mainstream. A great example of this is in Europe from a special protein project that was integrated with EIT Foods Masters in Food Systems. That chapter is no longer active as a student group, but they evolved into the Protein Diversification Academy just a few months ago, working to develop and provide the world's leading educational material on protein diversification. So even if a group isn't active anymore, that doesn't mean that the alumni are inactive. They are probably off doing bigger and better things Besides education. They've also driven more than 40 research projects that fill important knowledge gaps and push innovation forward in alternative proteins.
Ismaël Bawah:In 2024, the University of Chicago APP developed a student-led research accelerator program RAP they call it and in the first iteration of this RAP, the APP team recruited graduate students and upperclassmen to lead four different research groups, and these research groups cover a wider range of topics, from machine learning applications to lifecycle assessments all relevant to alternative proteins to lifecycle assessments, all relevant to alternative proteins. Then, innovation-wise, the project has also helped create over 90 all-protein jobs and internships so far, directly connecting students with real career opportunities in the industry. The current leaders of the APP at the National University of Singapore are also co-founders of a pet nutrition company that uses fermentation technology to convert food side streams into alternative proteins, to name one example of the innovative founders of alternative protein chapters. And then, besides the education, research and innovation that these chapters are driving, there is a great deal of awareness and community building that is being done, and that goes from organizing scientific conferences and festivals to producing podcasts and being active science advocates and communicators. Our University of Nigeria APP last year organized the first alternative protein symposium in Nigeria, with over 300 students and faculty joining them.
Ismaël Bawah:Food for Thought, hosted at Harvard University, annually brings together hundreds of students to, as I say, reimagine the future of food, and this is a product of collaboration across many APP chapters American ones like Dufts and Brown, also Warwick from the UK and our APP in Nigeria, to name a few. So it's not only that they are very well positioned to make a local impact, which is a big part of the program, but due to the setup of the project, it also becomes very easy to work across borders and bring regions closer together. We see this in Food for Thought. Recently, there was also an in-person workshop between Nigeria, india and UK chapters hosted by the Mumbai All-Protein Project.
Ismaël Bawah:As for the vision of the future, ultimately the vision is to empower the next generation of leaders who will transform the global food system, with alternative proteins at the heart of that change. We want to keep expanding this global network, reaching even more universities and students, so that the alternative protein movement becomes mainstream in academia. We'll do this by funding more university research that tackles the biggest technical challenges and opens doors to scaling up these sustainable protein solutions. Supporting the creation of new educational programs and courses to build a robust talent pipeline that meets industry needs and strengthen cross-sector connections between scientists, entrepreneurs, investors and policy leaders, starting from the students up.
Ryan Grant Little:Okay, so a fair number of things to do there, and I think, before I introduce Lisa and Jorge as two of the people delivering these programs at the university level, give me a bit of context on why, from out of 63 universities that are active with programs, you chose Lisa and Jorge to join us today.
Ismaël Bawah:Well, we chose Lisa and Jorge to speak because they both represent what makes the All Protein Project so powerful visionary and motivated students who are making real change.
Ismaël Bawah:Lisa led the All Protein Project at the University of Cambridge while she was studying for her PhD and then, since finishing her degree, she's continued working with GFI as a mentor to both the Cambridge and Imperial APP groups, whilst herself pursuing a very impressive career in the field.
Ismaël Bawah:Her continued involvement has really been invaluable for the students and for me as well, because we are the two mentors for all the UK APP groups, and working together with her on that has been fantastic. For Jorge, he's based at UFMG in Brazil, completing his PhD in cell biology and bioengineering. He is still an active member of the group and was part of developing the first in-person cellular agricultural course in Brazil, whilst also working as a partner and researcher for a cellular agricultural startup focused on cultivating leather. And he's just an amazing scientific communicator and is doing a great job in pushing the field further. So you're completely right there are so many fantastic students involved in APP chapters around the world and we know they're going to do amazing things in the field. All of them, and both Lisa and Jorge are perfect examples of why we give the tools, funding and mentorship to students and what they can result in.
Ryan Grant Little:Amazing. I mean, one of the running themes I noticed here is that people are wearing lots of hats at the same time, so probably not enough hours in the day, but amazing work that you're doing. Lisa, maybe I'll start with you. You're a postdoctoral researcher at Imperial College London. What is your field of research there?
Lisa Neidhart:Yes, thank you, ryan.
Lisa Neidhart:So my research revolves around fermentation, and fermentation.
Lisa Neidhart:That basically means that we are drawing on an ancient technology that has been harnessed by humanity for millennia, and I'm sure everyone of us has made use of it in one way or the other, for example, when making sourdough bread, yogurt, kimchi, wine, brewing, beer, brewing, etc.
Lisa Neidhart:So we are very familiar with that technology, and so what I'm doing now is using these natural processes and adding modern science to it, because these, what we know as fermentation, is enabled through microbes, and these are tiny living organisms that basically create the magic that make fermentation happen, and in the lab we basically talk about, sometimes as tiny heroes, because all of these microbes and we know them, for example, as bacteria or yeast or filamentous fungi they all come with their very unique features, abilities, preferences, and one ability that I personally feel especially excited about is that some of them, they really like to eat or grow on something that would otherwise not be accessible for us humans to eat, for example, and one example we have in the lab is in rapeseed oil extraction, so we take the oil, but what remains is basically all the rest of the rapeseed, and so this is one example that we can use as food for microbes that can then upcycle these nutrients that otherwise would not be available for us.
Lisa Neidhart:And all of that, of course, in the context that we are researching and exploring to create foods that are delicious, sustainable and nutritious as well from these microbes.
Ryan Grant Little:Yeah, fermentation is a real unsung hero and I think has great potential to be a crucial reformer of our food system. You shifted from a fundamental biosciences path in your studies to a career focus on alternative proteins after your PhD and I wonder was there kind of an inciting moment or was there something specific that moved you from the fundamental biosciences work to the alternate protein space? What informed that decision?
Lisa Neidhart:Yes. So for my PhD, which took a long time, I was in a quite niche and quite old field of fundamental medical research and over these years, I was always struggling with convincing others, and especially myself, that what I'm doing actually serves a broader purpose. And during that time, I learned about alternative proteins, and for me, that was really the key point that there's an overlap between my skill sets, my training and, of course, I like doing science but at the same time, also touching on something very personal, because I'm really convinced that I want to be part and I want to contribute in shaping a world that serves today's generation, but also future generations, and I found that in contributing to shaping a sustainable food system. What I can also mention maybe a key moment, because you were asking for that for me was the Good Food Conference that GFI hosted in 2023.
Lisa Neidhart:But there was a huge event in the US bringing together all kinds of players and stakeholders from the field, and I joined as one of the representatives of the Cambridge APP, and so the GFI hosted a pre-conference summit for the students, and that was really the changing moment for me, because I experienced in person how many, like I met all the faces that I met previously just on screen, and I felt really this shared sense of mission and drive. And so as a result of that conference actually, I returned back to Cambridge and then turned down the only job offer that I had at the time and decided to pursue a career in alternative proteins. And then, luckily shortly after, I actually met my now boss, rodrigo, who is the director of the Microbial Food Hub and Basel Center for Sustainable Protein here at Imperial College London. So now I can be a scientist and also community leader here of this ecosystem.
Ryan Grant Little:It's something you notice in the alternative protein space that people are very mission driven and values aligned, and so when you go to a conference like that, you notice that sort of I mean the level of ego or that type of thing that you normally see at a business conference is far lower here and people are much more kind of cooperative People coming from. There's a level of respect like a very, very high level of respect kind of across the board. Something that really appealed to me also about getting involved in alternative proteins you mentioned Cambridge APP or Cambridge Alternative Protein Project. How did you get involved with that and can you talk a little bit about it? I think it's been transitioned through to the European Institute of Innovation and Technology, which I know just has EIT food, so not in this long form. Can you talk a bit about the Cambridge APP and its connection also now to EIT food?
Lisa Neidhart:Yes, so maybe just for a bit of context. So when I joined the Cambridge APP, I was actually part of the second generation of leadership in that student group and when I was joining, actually we were not yet part of GFI's APP, so we were applying shortly after I joined and as having witnessed before and after being of this big international community, I can really emphasize that the resources we were able to access as being part of the APP really made a huge difference for us in terms of resources we had, of course, financially, but very most importantly also mentorship support and just having access to other student groups who try to tackle the same problems but in different locations of the world. You were mentioning now the relationship to the EIT Food APP. So the relationship there, just to realign, that is that originally how I heard about alternative proteins was that I joined a course, the Alternative Protein Fundamentals Program, and so at the time that was run in Cambridge in collaboration with Effective Altruism. So back in the days there was lots of overlap between Effective Altruism.
Lisa Neidhart:So back in the days there was lots of overlap between Effective Altruism and Alternative Proteins, because Effective Altruism they have this animal welfare branch, so we actually got funding from them and they were running these courses and that's how I joined.
Lisa Neidhart:But this very course and curriculum that was an eight-week course at the time was created with a big idea to basically serve as an onboarding course for people who want to go into the alternative protein space. But soon enough we realized that the demand that was there was much bigger than the resources we had at hand to accommodate that. And then, so luckily, that fell now into the realm of the EIT food APP because, as Ismael mentioned as an example of achievements of APP, they basically they took this existing curriculum, they updated it and they embedded it now into a bigger educational program where you have also different levels of depth of the teachings. All of that is bottom-up, cohort-based learning, and so we were just really happy that now basically people work on that full-time because they are actually a non-profit, with the goal to bring these alternate protein educational programs to the world.
Ryan Grant Little:I want to circle back to you in a moment as well and talk to you a bit about how to further the alt proteins agenda, but I'm using the opportunity to bring you, Jorge, into the conversation, so you're coming at this from a bit of a different. So, whereas Lisa's coming from a fermentation angle, you're sort of a specialized in cultivated meat, which is something that I think also is going to be totally fundamental to replacing the traditional meat industry. You're a biologist at the Federal University of Minas Gerais which I'm definitely pronouncing wrong in Brazil. Talk a bit about how you got connected to the Alternative Proteins Project.
Jorge Guadalupe:Yeah, absolutely, Ryan. Thank you for having me. It's Minas Gerais and also my name is really broad in different languages. It's not Jorge, it's Jorge, but I usually joke with my international friends that I brought with GFI that I can cope with. Jorge, Jorge, Jorge, George, Everything works fine.
Jorge Guadalupe:Yes, I'm a biologist. My thesis was actually focused I graduated in 2021, was actually focused on cell culture in vitro, a study of a neglected tropical disease that is called Chagas disease, and therefore I learned a lot about cell culture. My lab was really focused on cell culture and because my advisor and my lab wanted to shift a little bit of learning on three-dimensional cell culture, so basically, instead of growing the cells in a two-dimensional matter, like the cells are attached to a flask, like a glass or a plastic, we recreate this three-dimensional structure that is actually where your cells are within your tissues, with a biomaterial, for example. We call it scaffold, like a construction scaffold, because the cells will grow in all of the three dimensions and my lab saw this opportunity with the GFI research program in 2020. So everything started with GFI once again, and we wrote down this project on developing a scaffold for cultivated chicken and we did it and I was invited to join this project and my whole master's was focused on that and because of actually, we did the first fried chicken in Latin America with this project. So it was really nice.
Jorge Guadalupe:We were really excited about it. We were eager to we still are to explore even more and more on the field, and we were really close contact with GFI Brazil and they were looking for possible candidates for a new out-proting project cohort in 2023. And they publicized this program to us and I was so excited about it because I think I really relate with Lisa's I'm sorry if I'm saying it wrong again international call but I think I really relate to this as we can see some impact. I really wanted to make some impact locally or globally let's see what my career is expecting me but I really thought that would be the perfect opportunity to spread the word of this outstanding technology that is recreating meat with tissue culture. So, as both an enthusiast of the biotechnology and a person that really worries about the climate issues, I joined the program happily and I'm here.
Ryan Grant Little:I always joke that when well, I mean it's not really a joke because it's true but once cultivated chicken wings become commercially available, I'm going to take two weeks off of work by like maybe four pounds of them and sweatpants that are two sizes too big at that time. Chicken wings are like my kryptonite as someone who's plant-based but I like spicy food and I really miss chicken wings. I think it's my North Star for being involved in this space. You should invite me. Yeah, keep pressing on on the cultivated chicken, please, and with the focus on chicken wings. I was really interested to see that you've got, you've developed, a cellular agriculture university course there, and I think that that's something that would be amazing to replicate globally. Can you talk a little bit about how the experience has been with that, what the curriculum looks like? Kind of just, you know, generally give us the one-on-one.
Jorge Guadalupe:Yeah, absolutely. So before delving into the curriculum, I wanted to just to talk to you about this strategy that we wanted to have, no-transcript. She's called Samira Nassif and she recreates gummeats from cells at the feather of blue macos, the Rio movie bird, and it's an endangered species. So she gets this fibroblast out of the feather, she makes gabbit with them so that she can have embryos and fertilize a blue macaw from scratch. So, like this is with her platform that we have, and also her productivity and into sustainability, we could make her eye shine stored cultivated meat. So this is what we wanted to try. So we invited her to give a class on cell culture and strategy for cell immortalization. That is basically this modification that we have to make the cells so the cells can proliferate a lot, and if her eyes shine and she meets up the student at the class that is eager to develop a new project in this field, it's the perfect formula. So the course was really focused on biotechnology. I think it was easy to see this from this initial sentence that I just made. But because you need all of this technology to recreate the cellular agriculture products, such as cultivated chicken, but also other types of meat, but also leather and fat. That is a project that we have in the university. We wanted to explain to the students how to isolate the stem cells from the donor animal, how to make them proliferate, how to use bioreactors in industries, how to make the cells mature and look like a protein-rich muscle fibers, how to develop these biomaterials that we called scaffolds and at the end. So this is the curriculum, these were the classes, and we invited professors but also APP members, so students gave the classes. So, for example, I gave the introductory classes, I gave the media class, the culture media classes, I gave the 3D bioprinting classes, because it's my thesis right now, and at the end we invited industry representatives, such as a startup that I'm working with that's called Mundo Biotech, the CSO from there, aline, and also JBS researchers that are working in contact with us at UFMG as well, to discuss about the market, to show the students the market and at the end, once the students understood all the technology backgrounds and the technology gaps on the industry and also the actual industry so all of the startups, or at least a landscape of the startups that are already in the market they had to pitch a startup idea like a shark tank. So these were their final tasks. So they had to create this idea that has to have a science background but also market background. So they had to make sense of that and they would have to pitch it to a committee with industry from JBS Mundo and academia representatives and that would be their final grade. So it's been a huge success. The students are loving it. I actually made a report to GFI we are going to offer for the third time the next semester Funny thing we also have practical classes there.
Jorge Guadalupe:So Brazil has had a lot of other initiatives. For example, ufpr it's another university from Paraná also had a course, but we did this with practical classes and they are really trying to do it as well in Paraná. So the students would hands-on activities with cell culture, 3d bioprinting, suspension culture in bioreactors or pre-bioreactors. So they were really excited about it. We had really really great comments back.
Ryan Grant Little:You mentioned JBS a couple of times there, and when I think of Brazil's food system, I think of JBS, which is the world's largest meat company, and I'd be very curious to hear how you're working with them and what their connection is with the alternative protein space and maybe if you can just kind of give us a little sense as well, because I think when we talk about alternate proteins you hear a lot about kind of the European and the North American perspective, to some extent also in Asia, especially Singapore, but you don't hear as much about Latin America, and I wonder if you could just bring that perspective in more broadly for us.
Jorge Guadalupe:Yeah, I think we should improve our communication skills, actually, because there are a lot of things happening. But, yeah, jbs the largest meat company in the world and they have made the largest investment in cultivated proteins in the world as well, and part of this investment was to buy this plant on Spain of a company, a startup in Spain, and the other half was to create this institute research center in Florianopoli, south of Brazil, and they have this project with a professor at YFMG to develop, because they also understand that and I think this is something that it's really interesting about, because it's a technology that is really difficult to develop and although we had really great progress in the last 10 years and I think the investment and the market, the investors in the market has understood a little bit in the last two years, it's difficult to recreate and we're going to need more research and we're going to need more open access research maybe, and instead of spending a lot of money in their own companies, I think a strategy that Brazilian companies are really having is to make these partnerships with universities. I think it's the same idea with Bezos Center from Leeson, which is something that we're also trying to do here at WebFMG. So, if you have Bezos contact, lisa, please send me. Just kidding, but the money, it's a lot of money to do this research. So JBS thought that maybe having these partnerships with universities would be a great strategy and it's something that is happening at WebFMG, also, with the startup that I'm working with. We also have projects with the university so that we can accelerate this research and this new development.
Jorge Guadalupe:And, regarding the background landscape in Brazil, we have some startups focused completely on cellular agriculture. Mine that I'm working, mundo, is focused on cultivated leather here at Minas Gerais, and Sucinete Peaces at Rio. They are developing unstructured fish. We do have other initiatives and we, for example, grow factors to make the cells grow faster. But we do have large companies such as JPS and BRF developing all of this strategy into understanding this, and I think it's something that these project groups that have been popping in the university.
Jorge Guadalupe:They have been fomented and I think it's something that these project groups that have been popping in the university. They have been fomented and I think GFI has done a really great job in this and something that, although it's surprisingly that Brazil is kind of the cutting edge on this technology, but it's because of this agribusiness sector, it looks like it's something that it's against the agribusiness sector, but the agribusiness in Brazil is really smart and we are deemed the world's barn because of all of this strategy that we've made in the 17s and in the 80s towards genetic improvement, towards technology and biotechnology into the crops and into the animals as well. So it's not surprisingly to see that also in this biotechnology to remain as a world's leading country in developing and feeding populations that Brazil would focus on this as well. It hasn't been yet a government strategy the way the United States has put this in their executive plan or, like China, has put it in the five-year plan, and other countries has done this already. But the companies are really strategizing towards that.
Ryan Grant Little:And I think the jury's out. I keep my fingers crossed that companies like JBS or these traditional meat companies will do this with good intentions, basically as they shift into researching and funding some of this work. We've seen different examples right with, I mean especially in renewable energy, with traditional oil and gas companies going into, pulling out of, you know hindering, helping, investing in and these days you know mostly hindering things like renewable energy, and so hopefully this is a proper transition and I think it makes sense right, I mean a lot of these companies like Cargill are positioning themselves as protein companies rather than as meat companies historically, so the opportunity is there.
Ryan Grant Little:Only time will tell kind of how that plays out. I wanted to touch on the topic of kind of spreading the word about alternative proteins with you, but I'll reach back to Lisa for a second here, because you're doing lots of speaking and mentoring on this topic and I wonder if you can share what, for you, the kind of most effective pathways have been to furthering this agenda.
Lisa Neidhart:Yes, sure.
Lisa Neidhart:So one idea that I keep coming back to is the one revolving around the one health concept, and so that basically describes that human, animal and planetary health are very much interlinked and connected with each other.
Lisa Neidhart:So that's exactly where alternative proteins come in, because they offer the rare opportunity to create a win-win-win situation, because alternative proteins, they aim to be better for people, for humans, for animals as well as for the planet, and I often like thinking about that in contrast to many diets nowadays that are basically loose diets because they come from industrial animal agriculture that drives climate change, deforestation, et cetera, but as well also poor health, and so with better protein options provided by alternative proteins, we can shift towards diets that are healthier as well as more ethical and sustainable, and so I think, to get there, education and community are key, and this is exactly why I feel very much passionate about mentoring, speaking, engaging not only with scientists, but also with all kinds of other people, because, ultimately, we all eat, so we are all very much. I'm sure, we have lots to say, and so it's really important to keep this conversation going in a constructive way.
Ryan Grant Little:And you can also be plant-based and not have a healthy diet, which is a testament to my French fries and ketchup-centric diet personally. But, lisa, I'm interested in when you say other people as well. So it's scientists. Yes, I think they're quite receptive to this kind of thing. What are some of the audiences you're speaking to who aren't necessarily, you know, you wouldn't necessarily expect to be receptive to this, but that have surprised you I mean so from a very personal example.
Lisa Neidhart:I can talk about my grandma because I mean so. I'm originally from germany. I would say especially I'm from the countryside there. Meat is a very strong cultural good and in the beginning, when I talked about what I'm actually doing for my job, she I mean generally my family couldn't quite understand. But now they keep on cutting newsletter articles about alternative proteins, cultivated meat and they keep me asking about it, and she even invented like a word in German that I forgot about actually to describe this new thought of meat. So I feel the key is really about sparking curiosity and going a little bit away from this narrative of doom and catastrophe and also perhaps wanting to take away something, because actually focusing on the potential that we can win something here, not only for ourselves but also for the general purpose as well okay, what is that word?
Ryan Grant Little:because we have lots of listeners in germany, austria and switzerland.
Ismaël Bawah:Okay, well, if it comes back to you.
Ryan Grant Little:I'll put it in the show notes.
Jorge Guadalupe:That's good can I add something to this amazing thing that Liza just said, because it's something that we have. I also face here in Brazil. I'm also from the countryside of Minas Gerais, which is a state that is really known about milk production, meat production and cheese production. We call it pão de queijo, which is a small cheese bread that is actually delicious. So we do have this culture and I think that every time I'm trying to approach on a even on a communication level, on a politics level, on a diplomacy level, it's much easier if you make the person like you first, and then the person will like your ideas. So be nice, you know, and instead of going imperative like do this, do that, don't do this, don't do that, no, take it easy, understand, be comprehensive, do not forget about your goal on trying to change X into Y, but like slow it down because it might be more effective.
Ryan Grant Little:I think that's a super good point, and leading by example, rather than by hitting people over the head with judgment, is always a better way to go. And I was also interested to see that you're doing a lot of spreading the word at middle schools and high schools and I wonder what that experience has been like and have you had a? Have you, have people been open to that kind of message, or or are you treading on kind of culture wars there?
Jorge Guadalupe:Well, the experience has been messy. We're talking about 13 year old, 10 year old, adolescents, but actually it has been surprisingly great feedback. And I'm saying surprising because I was talking about the agribusiness inclined in brazil, but also about the culture of new things and biotechnology. Regarding that is something that, if it's not, it's at least intrigued. You know, brazilians are at least intrigued about the technology. So, trying to get this momentum of intrigation into curiosity and not to anxiety, something that we're really trying to do. But with kids I think they are easier because I don't think they have all of the cultural cemented, you know, in their uh, this is neuroscience actually in their heads. So, and I think it has also been easy, because of this easiness, to discuss with children.
Jorge Guadalupe:But also mostly and partially, actually mostly due to Julia Meirelles, our director of education, because she has developed all of the approach to we call it a PPN scholar, a PPN school, and she really knows how to talk to different ages of children and she is really charismatic, she's funny, she's fun. We love her and so, for example, for a nine-year-old, she has this group of fun lectures intercalated with hands-on activities such as molding Play-Doh to make the cells and placing them on Popsicle sticks, three-dimensional Popsicle sticks. That would be the scaffold. So this is how you recreate. You try to recreate meat and to talk to like 17 years old people that are on their senior high school. They're almost entering college.
Jorge Guadalupe:Instead of bringing too much data or lectures because they're already tired, they're doing their exams, you know, to get into the college. She brings them into the lab and she shows them the cell culture room, the 3D bioprinting, the cell culture flask, the cells under the microscope, and they adore it. And actually just not because I'm saying this is too qualitative. We're actually collating data from the school approaches, asking the students some questions before and after our approach to see how their mind have changed, and both this quantitative data but also the response that we see at the student's eye, because they actually begin to shy towards the technology and the power it has to shape the future, and that all of this is actually happening in their vicinity, in the university, in their city. I think all of this shows that they're really actually synergistic and enthusiastic into it. So no culture war actually.
Ryan Grant Little:And what about from the parents, any feedback from the parents? That's a really good question, because that's what I'm more worried about?
Jorge Guadalupe:That's a really good question. We haven't had any complaints yet. Okay, no news is good news. But actually we were thinking of this professor from the education department that like could we try to make this research into the parents as well, like asking the students to fill up, to ask the parents to fill up the poll before and after the approach. But I think this is going to be a little bit more difficult. So we'll try to manage and I hope I get to show you these results on a published paper this year or next year.
Ryan Grant Little:Okay. Well, we'll do this again in 12 months and see where we are. With that, it's a good moment to then switch to our lightning round, which is I'm just going to ask each of you one word that describes how you feel about the future of alternative proteins, and you can give a brief explanation of why. Let's start with you, Lisa.
Lisa Neidhart:Sure. So my word is delicious, because I think food isn't just fuel for our body to nourish ourselves, but it's also a social binding element bringing us together, enjoying food, cooking food. That's why our tonic of proteins needs to be delicious.
Ryan Grant Little:Amazing.
Jorge Guadalupe:Georgi, your turn. I think I'm going to bring into the synergy of all I'm speaking today because, although we're talking about climate, I think we're talking about future. We're talking about nurture, we're talking about delicious, but I wanted to bring a word that might look different from what we're talking here. It's the strategy, because Brazil deems the world's bar. Our GDP is strongly supported by the export of grains, meat and other agricultural products. So we are this agricultural power mainly because of the climate and land. So when we're talking about the strategy that I mentioned is because we need to bring people together.
Jorge Guadalupe:I'm struggling in developing the technology. I'm struggling my PhD. It's taking longer than I wanted as well, lisa, but I am doing one small, tiny part of all that is needed, because we're going to need education, we're going to need politics, we're going to need a lot of other technology, we're going to need market, we're going to need logistics. So we need everyone together. So we need to convince people to join the boat. So if we're talking to different audiences, I think we need to strategize, and I think it's much easier to talk to the listeners of this podcast because we are all climate inclined. But if we're talking about a person, that is a little bit more conservative, because they don't mention or they do not understand fully all of the crisis that is potentially happening. So we need to adapt our speech.
Jorge Guadalupe:So I'm speaking of this because this is how we made this approach on Brazilian government, because Brazil is an agricultural part because of climate and land, and the countries that are developing the technology of cultured meat are, for example, singapore and Israel, because they do not have the land and if they start to pile bioreactors in their buildings to make this and they're not going to buy the food from Brazil, so it's going to be something that would harm Brazilian GDP, brazilian economy.
Jorge Guadalupe:So, like, if we think about the argument of climate crisis, the argument of animal welfare, we have the argument of food security and population growth, but maybe a good argument and those for maybe more conservative audiences. That is also geopolitics and market share and that is large companies in US and Brazil and Europe has been looking for. This is why China has put in a five-year plan and also the United States have put it in their strategy of executive power as well. So we have the same in Brazil and Portuguese that says this is big dog talk, so like it's high scale politics, you know. So we need to bring these people together and we need to improve our communication skills.
Ryan Grant Little:Great answer, Ismael. I'll turn it over to you.
Ismaël Bawah:I guess the word that first came to mind is abundance. Growing up, I really loved the Back to the Future movies and just fantasizing about all these hopeful sci-fi visions of the future, you know, with teleportation and robot butlers and printers that actually work when you need to print something. But whatever that dream future looks like for me or for you, I think at its core it will always involve having plenty of food, a world without hunger. And to get to that world where food is abundant, I think alternative proteins are going to be key to get to eat at the same quality and taste that we're doing right now, but only using a fraction of the resources.
Ryan Grant Little:Mine will be chicken-wings, so it's one word that counts as one word If we've done our job well on this podcast. There are a bunch of listeners who are interested now in the Alternative Protein Project. Ismail, what do you need to further this mission and how can people who are listening get involved?
Ismaël Bawah:Well, if you're a student and this sounds like your kind of thing, we'd love to hear from you. And, to emphasize, you don't need to be in the science or technology to get involved. The alternative protein field is highly intersectional, and so are the all-protein projects. Beyond the science, we need students in business policy really everything else to get involved. Communications, absolutely. Design, even Big line, yeah, very much. And to get involved.
Ismaël Bawah:Applications for new APP chapters open at the start of each year, so this year's has just passed, but in the meantime, you can visit the GFI website to find lots of information on how to already get started building a student group independently, as well as some other career resources that you might find interesting. And then, if you're not a student but you're still excited about building a better food system, alternative proteins are very much a growing field and there are lots of opportunities for you to get involved, whether that's as a researcher or a policymaker, investor, nutritionists, someone able to direct philanthropic funding. It's really a collaborative space and people from different disciplines all work together, so I'd love to hear from anyone who is interested. Feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn or to get in touch via our website, gfieuropeorg.
Ryan Grant Little:I think that's a great place to leave it. I'll put all the contact information into the show notes. Thank you all for joining me today. Really great to have fellow Alt Proteins warriors on the podcast.
Ismaël Bawah:Thank you so much, Ryan, for having us. It's been a pleasure to talk about the AltRotein Project and the exciting future of alternative proteins. Thank you, Ryan.
Jorge Guadalupe:Thank you.
Ryan Grant Little:If you got something from this episode, please share it with a colleague or friend and rate it on Spotify, apple or wherever you listen. Word of mouth and reviews are how people find the podcast. I'll be back with another episode for you very soon. You can find the podcast on the web at climate tech pod dot com. Thanks for listening.
