Surviving a Shooting: Andre Abouharb On The Power of the Mind (Spirituality)

Andre Abouharb is the founder and director of Catholic Apparel, a faith-inspired fashion brand. Andre has traversed a remarkable personal journey, overcoming major life challenges that have deeply shaped his mission and work. His story is powerful, as it entwines his experiences with his Catholic faith, leading him to inspire others through his life and business.

Episode Summary:

Andre Abouharb was a young man enjoying a normal night out when a shooting changed everything. As founder and director of Catholic Apparel, Andre joins Debbie and Natalie to talk about faith, trauma and what healing really looks like. He shares how the Holy Spirit met him in crisis, how volunteering at Westmead became his therapy, and why forgiving someone you have never even identified set him free. In this episode, you will discover what it truly means to find purpose and mental health through faith.

Key Takeaways:

• Andre’s life-changing night at a nightclub led to a profound spiritual and personal transformation grounded in his faith.
• The importance of family prayer and early spiritual foundations can forge resilience in facing life’s darkest times.
• Integration of spirituality with mental health practices aids in holistic healing and personal growth.
• Serving others and shifting focus away from oneself can provide healing and a sense of purpose.
• Acceptance of suffering, as seen through a spiritual lens, can lead to positive transformation and unanticipated new paths.

Notable Quotes:

• "The key to suffering is acceptance."
• "Behind every negative is a positive, and I just started searching for that positive because of my faith."
• "Time heals. It's as simple as that. Just hang in there. The storm will pass."
• "We are asking to share in the cross, and when we do, it's telling us we go from death to life."
• "When you are giving, you are receiving."

Resources:

• Catholic Apparel's Website
• Andre’s Artist Profile on Spotify - C.A

You and your mental health is important to us. If this episode brought up any heavy emotions, please know you do not need to carry them alone. Reach out to Lifeline, Beyond Blue, or the counselling service at Hills Sanctuary house at hshl.org.au 

Do subscribe to this podcast to get the latest episodes of Finding Sanctuary.

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Transcript

0:00:00 - (Debbie Draybi): Welcome back everyone, to another episode of Finding Sanctuary. Really excited. I've got Nat with me today.

0:00:05 - (Andre Abouharb): Hi, Deb.

0:00:06 - (Natalie Moujalli): Come back, Nat.

0:00:07 - (Debbie Draybi): We missed you.

0:00:08 - (Natalie Moujalli): Thank you. I missed you too.

0:00:09 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah. And together we've got a wonderful guest joining us. We're really excited to introduce. Well, man, that really needs no introduction. Andre Abu Hadab, who's the founder and director of Catholic Apparel. So welcome, Andre.

0:00:25 - (Andre Abouharb): Really excited. How are you? Thanks for having me. I'm excited.

0:00:28 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah, well, so are we, Andre. We're just really pleased you can join us. I know we had a chat a couple of nights ago in our pre meeting and we had a really big conversation about your early experiences in your teens, late teens, over 25 years ago now, which you're really a victim of a horrific crime. You were shot during an incident at a nightclub. And we know that that experience, you know, obviously for anyone, was quite significant and had a really big impact on you and your life. And we wanted to explore a bit about that experience first and foremost and how it's sort of led you to the life that you have now and how it's impacted your journey in life and what you've learned from it. So sorry, it's a lot of questions there, but.

0:01:10 - (Andre Abouharb): No, no, no, it's all good. So I guess that was definitely a major part of my life. Raised in a Maronite Catholic home, went to mass every week. You know, I have four older brothers. Everything was just a normal life. I can't really point out and say there was anything not normal. Everything changed as soon as I finished school. You go to university, everything changes from there. The environment becomes different.

0:01:37 - (Andre Abouharb): You have a lot more freedom and you're making a lot more decisions and obviously temptations come with that. And I never always made the right decision. But on this particular occasion I was just at home. I was just watching some footy, just lazing around at home. And it was about 9:30 at night. I just looked over to my brother and our neighbours and we all kind of lived in one street. So everybody was just, just good friends, were like a brotherhood.

0:02:08 - (Andre Abouharb): Anyway, we just suggested to go out and we did. We went out again like a normal night. I had a few drinks and then before I knew it, I looked over and I saw my neighbor in the middle of an all in brawl. And this wasn't like a typical all in brawl where, you know, one or two people. It was. There was at least 10 or 15 guys on him. As soon as I saw that, I immediately just said, I need to defuse this situation because If I don't step in, they'll probably kill him.

0:02:38 - (Andre Abouharb): It's like he had curly hair and all I could remember is his curly hair bouncing up and down. He was just in the middle of this thing and I'm just, okay, I need to jump in here now. Trying to defuse the situation. Unfortunately, they thought I was going in there for a bit of action. And so the attention then turned to me and I was kind of caught in the middle. So I'm now receiving the blows and the punches, the elbows, the bottles.

0:03:03 - (Andre Abouharb): And before we knew it, security came in. They formed a barrier around us and pushed us outside. Now we were outside and I have blood all over my face. And I'm thinking, let's go home. Like, I'm not used to any of this. We're all macho, I guess, you know, and we think we're cool. We watch movies and listen to music and we think the world is co. And that happens. But when you're in that situation, it's totally different.

0:03:35 - (Andre Abouharb): So I'm looking for my brother and my neighbors, and as I'm looking for them, I heard a loud bang. It just sounded like a firecracker. I heard a second loud bang and this time I knew exactly what it was. And so I had been shot behind my left knee in the nerve, vein and artery. Now they reckon it was a ricochet. I don't know. The people who shot me were never caught. I never found out who did it, but the damage was severe.

0:04:04 - (Andre Abouharb): So because it hit me in the nerve, I lost feeling in my leg immediately. So I couldn't wiggle my toes or move my ankle because it hit me in the, in the artery. The blood was flowing out quite heavily. Luckily, a quick thinking friend pulled his shirt off, wrapped his shirt around my knee to stop the blood flow. St. George Hospital was only two minutes away, so thank God, right? So they rushed me off to hospital, didn't wait for the ambulance, jumped in a car and got there.

0:04:35 - (Andre Abouharb): And as soon as I got to the hospital, you know, I noticed something was, was different because there were a group of doctors and nurses waiting for me in the emergency room. And the funny thing is, I don't know if you guys have ever slept on your arm before and woken up and it's numb. And then you feel the pins and needles and the heat. That's what it felt like. So it didn't hurt me because I wasn't expecting.

0:04:58 - (Andre Abouharb): I wasn't like looking at someone and saying, hey, shoot me. So I was okay. But up until that Point, that's when things just changed for me. And so, you know, they got me to sign forms, and they wanted to send me in for emergency surgery pretty quickly. By that point, my foot was black, so it was gangrene, like charcoal black. Lost pulse in the leg and without me realizing. But my brother had asked the doctor around this time in parallel that, you know, if I was going to make it through the night, and they couldn't guarantee that.

0:05:32 - (Andre Abouharb): As they were wheeling me into the emergency room, I just felt the Holy Spirit come down on me. That was like the moment. It was clear as day. The Holy Spirit just said, pray, Hail Mary. And I did. And I prayed the Hail Mary. And as I prayed it, hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

0:06:05 - (Andre Abouharb): And as I prayed that prayer, I literally had a flashback of my life in that moment. All the days where, you know, we went to church, all the prayers we prayed together as a family, all the good things that happened in my life. And the reason why I bring that up is because that shows the importance of family prayer. Because you may not feel at that time where, you know, it could be busy with studying or work or whatever, it may be right, and we sometimes just neglect that part of our life.

0:06:37 - (Andre Abouharb): But when we say those prayers, it's like spiritual water forming into a spiritual well. And you don't need it at that moment, but you will need it at your time of need. And that's where I was drawing that strength from at that moment.

0:06:49 - (Natalie Moujalli): It's like that bank we've been talking about over the last few episodes, that life bank that you just putting the money into it, and then you're drawing from it when you need to.

0:06:58 - (Andre Abouharb): It's so real, I can't tell you how real that is. And so that's what I was doing. I was literally drinking from that well. And then before I knew it, the next thing I remember is waking up and hearing my mother trying to get access to me. And I guess this is where everything changed for me. Although Our lady got me through that moment, there was a heavy toll on me and my family.

0:07:20 - (Debbie Draybi): Andrea, I'm wondering if you can tell us a little bit about what that looked like. That darkness that you describe in the midst of the tears, how did you experience that?

0:07:30 - (Andre Abouharb): Well, when we're in darkness, you can't see. That's the first thing I'll Say I could not see in front of me.

0:07:38 - (Debbie Draybi): So it sounds like it was very blinding.

0:07:39 - (Andre Abouharb): It was blinding. I didn't know what tomorrow was to hold. I'm trying to learn to walk again. I don't know if my. What the recovery process was like. I had X rays, and I had to be referred to doctors and physiotherapy, outpatient clinics. And all in all, even though, you know, I smiled, it was so tough underneath. And I dragged my whole family into this as well, so I had that guiltiness as well. And I was also thinking, damn those movies that I watched when I was growing up. You know, it looked so cool for this to happen.

0:08:19 - (Andre Abouharb): And then when you're in it, it's nothing like it. It's all. It's, like, fake. I promise.

0:08:24 - (Natalie Moujalli): That's a really interesting point because, you know, so much of this is glamorized, right? You're actually in it, and you're going, what's this? This is not what I want.

0:08:31 - (Andre Abouharb): And if I had a message to people out there who are. We're at school, and they want to go and, you know, fight and do all those cool things, trust me, dude, it's not. It's not all glamorous. I didn't find this. It found me, you know, but, you know, the impact was the same. It was exactly the same. So I had regret, a lot of regret. That was dark for me. But hanging onto that regret and moving forward, you can't can for a time being, hang on both. But eventually you have to choose.

0:09:00 - (Andre Abouharb): So you can't just continue holding on to both because you will not move forward. It was tough like that darkness. There's a thing called phantom pain. So you still feel pain in your toes even though you can't feel it. And they're telling me, wiggle your toes. And I'm like, but I can't wiggle my toes. But you still need to try and do it. And trying to do that, and then going to doctors all the time, and then doctors are so.

0:09:26 - (Andre Abouharb): They're so negative. I don't know if anyone else experiences that, but I know you get some real empathetic doctors who care for you, but the majority, they don't. They just treat you like an object. It's sad. And not only that, I had, like, police officers interviewing me, asking me if I knew who, you know, who did it. I'm like, I've never spoken to a police officer in my life, and you're asking me if I knew these people.

0:09:56 - (Andre Abouharb): I didn't know these People, no, I never caught. My parents are obviously angry. My family are angry. Everyone around me is angry. They're all wanting to seek revenge. And everywhere I went, people asked me, what happened, what happened? Even till today, everywhere I go, people say, oh, what happened to your leg? You can't just say, oh, I got shot. What? What do you mean you got shot? And then they draw all these conclusions.

0:10:25 - (Andre Abouharb): The darkness never leaves is the honest. Is the honest thing.

0:10:30 - (Natalie Moujalli): And it would be hard to deal with the assumptions as well. You just said, like, you can't just say I got shot because people are drawing assumptions.

0:10:37 - (Andre Abouharb): Right. And that's straight away. Like, the first thing I say is, I've got nerve damage. Oh, how did that happen? An accident. Oh, what accident?

0:10:45 - (Debbie Draybi): People want details.

0:10:46 - (Natalie Moujalli): Yeah.

0:10:47 - (Andre Abouharb): And you just keep going. And that happens daily. Still today, you know, I'm so weak. And it's just the Lord that makes the difference. That's why I want everyone to know, just hang in there. Like, when you're going through something, just hang in there. So it's amazing, like, the process I went through just to go to doctors and walk through hospitals. And as I'm waiting in the waiting room, you see people around you, like people who are quadriplegic, people who can't move from chest down.

0:11:15 - (Andre Abouharb): You immediately look at them and just think, dude, this is nothing. But I can't see that. Over time, there are glimpses of light that shine through the darkness. And it just gives you that little bit of motivation to say, hang in there. It's going to change. It's going to change. But, yeah, the darkness was real. And I dealt with it through what every weak person would do, and I'd be negative, you know, but thankfully, I had people around me, family around me to help me through that journey and just keep turning myself around and just keep showing up.

0:11:49 - (Andre Abouharb): But, yeah, eventually time did heal, and eventually things turned around, but they will never turn around completely. The key to suffering is acceptance. That is so, so important. It's like I always use Simon of Cyrene as my example. Always. He was not looking for the cross. He was a spectator. And then when he saw what was going on, he just kind of said, hey, what's happening here? There's a bit of crowd. I want to go check it out.

0:12:17 - (Andre Abouharb): And then he gets called to carry his cross. And at the beginning, it was heavy. He didn't know Christ at that moment. He just. He was a stranger. But as the journey went, he understood who he was and he developed a relationship with him. And by the end of it. He was in love with Christ. He loved him. And by that time, he did not want to let go of the cross. He wanted to hold that cross, and they had to pull him away from the cross in the end.

0:12:46 - (Andre Abouharb): So it's just a matter of acceptance. Yeah, that's what really got me through. But. Yeah, but eventually just realized that all I had to do was change my attitude because what I was displaying on my face was mirrored in the room. I was sad. Everybody was sad. And then I thought to myself, I need to switch this. Behind every negative is a positive. And I just started searching for that positive because of my faith. If I didn't have the faith, there's no chance I would have found the positive in that.

0:13:24 - (Andre Abouharb): But I did. I found the positive and I said, look, I can't change anything. You know, let's brave up. It's not easy to man up. And when I say that, I say that with all respect. And what do I mean by that is you could man up, but in the next four hours, you're back down again. So it's a roller coaster. So don't think I'm not going to sit here behind this microphone and say, I'm strong, because I'm not. The Lord is strong, and I'm not. I'm weak.

0:13:53 - (Andre Abouharb): And so, yeah, so I made that decision, and I started smiling. And then the whole room just lit up in an instant. And then what happens is when they're lighting up, I'm lighting up even more. I'm making a hard decision to smile. It's almost like a fake smile. And then everybody's smiling, and then now I'm smiling. And so that's what happened. And then, not only that, but what else I did to help with the trauma was to write.

0:14:21 - (Andre Abouharb): And I loved writing poetry. And so I started writing poetry down, just an inside tip like I used to rap.

0:14:28 - (Natalie Moujalli): And I. I'm glad you brought that up, because you ain't getting out of here without that.

0:14:34 - (Andre Abouharb): So, like, I loved it, right? Growing up at school, my. My older brother rapped in front of the whole school. I just saw him. I'm like, man, I want to be like you one day. And so I started doing that. But my rapping at that moment was, like, about, you know, going out and having fun and all that sort of stuff. But that poetry that I wrote in the hospital flipped everything for me. It turned into gospel poetry, which turned into gospel rap for me later on down the track.

0:15:00 - (Andre Abouharb): It captures the emotion, it captures the feeling. And so you don't need it up here anymore. Do you know what I mean? So you can free your mind up to be the best version of yourself. Because. And that's how I deal with everything today. Like if I don't, for example, put a to do list together in my daily life, like in Catholic apparel, if I don't put that down and take it out of my mind, I'll go crazy.

0:15:24 - (Andre Abouharb): And so, yeah, that's a super important step to keep the mental stability.

0:15:29 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah. Andre, what I'm hearing a really big message, particularly for young people around, trying to find the internal resources that you have and build on them to help you cope when unexpected tragedies happen. For our listeners who are stuck, unfortunately, it's a big one. That victim mentality or that victim messages that they might be getting, particularly if they've experienced something, a crisis in the way that you have. What advice would you give them if they going through that and really stuck in that negative cycle?

0:16:01 - (Andre Abouharb): Well, it's an old adage and everyone says it, but it's so true. But there's people worse than you straight away. Like, there are people worse than you. The first thing is you're alive. Okay. The second thing is it's not just you who feels this. I feel it. Your brother feels it, your sister feels it, your mother feels it, your father feels it, Your first cousin feels it. We all feel it.

0:16:25 - (Natalie Moujalli): So you're not alone in your experience.

0:16:27 - (Andre Abouharb): You're not alone in your experience. Okay. That's super important because we can just bottle it up and just not tell anybody. And even till now, you know, my communication with my wife is super, super important. If I don't communicate what I'm feeling, then she can't help me and I can't help myself. So we must communicate. And that's the great thing that I love about, you know, what we spoke pre recording the, you know, the advance in, you know, the separation between faith and psychology and now how that's all come together.

0:17:02 - (Andre Abouharb): You know, I think that's such a benefit to all of us.

0:17:07 - (Natalie Moujalli): Yeah. So I might just go into a bit of detail for our listeners. So we were talking about how historically there's been quite the separation between psychology and spirituality. But in more recent years, there's definitely been a move towards integration or at least placing the value around how spirituality impacts our mental health and how even our physical health impacts our mental health. So. Which is why Hill Sanctuary House does have that mind, body, soul approach to healing.

0:17:38 - (Natalie Moujalli): So bringing spirituality in and understanding how important of a part that has played for you and your journey. That's really what we aim to do. When we look at wellbeing, it's not just, yes, therapy is very important. Communication is very important. Journaling is very important. But also so is what are our values, what are our beliefs? What's our lifestyle like? There's a whole holistic approach to wellbeing that is now being looked at closer than it has before.

0:18:07 - (Andre Abouharb): Yeah.

0:18:08 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah, absolutely. I think hearing your story, I see, you know, this beautiful lived experience of that interconnectedness of all those elements and how you bring them all together. You know, your early experiences from childhood and how in the midst of your crisis, you were able to engage your spirituality and your beliefs to allow you to reconnect with yourself and the world,

0:18:30 - (Natalie Moujalli): which then enables you to heal.

0:18:32 - (Andre Abouharb): Yeah.

0:18:32 - (Natalie Moujalli): You know, and once you heal emotionally and spiritually, then there's gonna be that flow and effect that puts your body in its best position to heal with the help that it needs.

0:18:43 - (Andre Abouharb): I think it's important to know that we're never gonna be perfect. We are just never gonna be perfect. I still fall short. Like I said, I'm weak. I look at myself as the dirt, and it's God who's strong, and so, you know, he's my walking stick. The other thing that helped me as well to get through this was to turn the focus off me and onto everybody else. So one of the first things I did was I got a job sitting down.

0:19:11 - (Andre Abouharb): So before that, I was working in retail and about to go and find my first job after uni, but that didn't happen. I had to put that on pause. And so my first priority was to find a job where I was seated. A friend of mine was working at a call centre, and I said, man, I'd love to go work in a call center. Cool. So I just started answering calls. And while I was there, I remembered a promise that I made myself when I was in hospital.

0:19:37 - (Andre Abouharb): And that is, I never want to forget how I felt in hospital, ever. I want to always draw on that, because if you're in hospital and you're in a dark space, then you visiting can make that difference for somebody, Especially if you're coming in with a good attitude and a positive attitude and just really say a few words that can turn them around. And so I never wanted to forget that. So I organized the head shave right at my first job, and I had the CEO lining up to shave his head. And we raised money.

0:20:10 - (Andre Abouharb): You know, I donated it to the children's hospital at Westmead. And when I got to Westmead, they said to me, hey, thank you for that. And I'm like, I didn't want to let the left hand know what the right hand was doing, right? I just wanted to just give a check and then see you later. But then they said, hey, come and do a tour. And I thought, yeah, yeah, all right, I'll do a tour, right? So I did a tour. And then we found the.

0:20:32 - (Debbie Draybi): The Starlight.

0:20:33 - (Andre Abouharb): The Starlight Room. I jumped into the Starlight Room. But then I saw next to it was this thing called Radio Bedrock. Have you heard of that? It's like a dj, you found a

0:20:44 - (Debbie Draybi): microphone, A rapper found a microphone.

0:20:46 - (Andre Abouharb): Oh, my gosh, I absolutely loved it. So, like, they're literally wearing Flintstone flavored gear. Patients would call in and make their requests and we'd play the songs for them and they'd win prizes and stuff. So I engaging with. And I became a volunteer immediately. So that sent me down that path where I was just dealing with people who had cancer, people who died, you know, in front of me. Like, there was one night where I eventually became Santa for Westmead.

0:21:15 - (Andre Abouharb): And we did the Santa run and I met this beautiful girl. Unfortunately, she passed away. But on the night where I started my run, I wanted to start with her first. And I went upstairs to her room. She wasn't there. And I asked the lady behind the counter and she told me the bad news. And I had to find whatever strength I had inside me to just smile and continue on that Santa operation. It was crazy.

0:21:45 - (Andre Abouharb): It was crazy. But what I found through that experience was honestly like, who am I? I've got a problem. And look at all these problems all around us, you know? So again, if you shift the focus off you and onto somebody else and get help and they get benefit from you, that makes you feel good. Because as Jesus said, when you are giving, you are receiving. You know, the whole world is a paradox. This world is the opposite.

0:22:14 - (Andre Abouharb): Don't believe what the world tells you. You know, the world is going to tell you you are the center of everything. It's I, I, I, I, I. But Christ says, this is my body giving up for you. And that's all we're doing. We're giving up our body for somebody else. And when we do that, and when we follow God's will, you will set the world you.

0:22:35 - (Natalie Moujalli): So, Andre, have you always been like this? Like before, before this?

0:22:39 - (Debbie Draybi): I'm trying to say. I'm finally trying to say it.

0:22:42 - (Natalie Moujalli): For the Lord motivated a helper A giver.

0:22:47 - (Andre Abouharb): You know, I think I got Christian Leadership award at school and my son got that as well recently. So it's in the blood. It's in the blood, but you don't know suffering until you suffer. Yes, it's theory. Until you suffer.

0:23:02 - (Natalie Moujalli): The healer, until he needs to be healed.

0:23:04 - (Andre Abouharb): Yes. Thank you. Thank you. And when you're in it, that's when you're learning. It's like here, you know, when we start the podcast, you guys, on episode one, I heard you guys were super nervous.

0:23:13 - (Debbie Draybi): We were telling him about our very first episode and how terrified we were.

0:23:17 - (Andre Abouharb): Like, you could read all the articles you want and say it's all, it's pre recorded and everything and you're still nervous, but you learn and you just keep going, keep going, keep going and then you get through it. Thank God.

0:23:31 - (Debbie Draybi): Andrea, I want to take you back to you said earlier about the midst of your crisis. And you know, there was a lot of conversation, you were having a lot of self talk. And one of the things I'm curious about is you told yourself to man up. Yeah, I know that can mean very different things in our society. And often boys are socialized to man up and to show courage and be brave in the midst of scary things.

0:23:57 - (Debbie Draybi): But from what I'm hearing from you, it's the opposite of that. It's actually to show vulnerability and to communicate your feelings. You know, when you talk about your communication with your wife, it's all about feelings. So for the, the boys listening, often the message they hear is a bit confusing around, you know, boys don't cry and be a man and be strong and be brave. But to me, I don't see that in you. I see the opposite of that, where you're being so open, so generous and giving of your own emotional pain and sharing and being open about what's really going on for you rather than trying to mask it and man up in the way that maybe some boys think.

0:24:37 - (Andre Abouharb): When I mean man up, I mean, you need to move forward. It's like driving here tonight, it was storming. Okay? Now in this situation, you could just turn around and go back and say, no, it's storming. I just don't want to, I don't want to be here. But if you keep driving through, the storm will pass. And so you mentioned courage. That's exactly what I was just searching for, courage. Now what's courage? Courage means the fear doesn't disappear.

0:25:06 - (Andre Abouharb): The fear is still there. We're still vulnerable. Vulnerable. I'm still scared. You know, I don't know what the doctor's gonna say next. Is the pulse gonna return? What's next? You know, I can't wiggle my toes. I still can't wiggle my toes now, you know, I don't have feeling in my leg. The doctor says in five years your toes are gonna fall off. So what am I gonna do? Am I gonna be thinking about when are my toes gonna fall off? Or I'm just gonna take one day at a time, you know, and just be courageous.

0:25:32 - (Andre Abouharb): You're still fearful and you're still gonna cry and you're still gonna have all these things. But the main thing is, you know, the biggest thing I always draw on is Lent. I love Lent. I love the stations of the Cross and the words. Mary, mother of our Saviour, may we share in your passion, leading us from death to life. May we share in your passion. May we share in your passion. Like, think about that.

0:26:00 - (Andre Abouharb): We're asking to share in the cross. And then not only that, but when we're sharing in the cross, it's telling us we go from death to life. Dude. Isn't it the other way around? Isn't it from life to death if you're suffering? But that's what Christ brings. He just brings life to anything. We need the faith. Yeah. When. When I say man up, it's not about, you know, how big your chest is and how big your arms are.

0:26:28 - (Andre Abouharb): It's really about how honest are you, Are you willing to step forward even though you don't know what, you know, what's in front of you?

0:26:37 - (Natalie Moujalli): So the true version of manhood, the true understanding. Because one would think manning up would mean finding who did this. Right? And this really struck me, struck me earlier you said, I don't even know who did it. And like, that was 25 years ago. And the fact that you. You're at this stage and you've been able to, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but been able to let that go.

0:26:58 - (Andre Abouharb): And I forgive that person as well.

0:26:59 - (Natalie Moujalli): And you forgive and you don't even know who they are.

0:27:01 - (Andre Abouharb): No, I don't.

0:27:02 - (Natalie Moujalli): That's many up.

0:27:02 - (Andre Abouharb): Oh, yeah. I totally forgive them. Like, look where I am because of it. I wouldn't have started Catholic Apparel as well if it wasn't for this, you know, so everything. God's in control. Like, we are just. We're just out here playing a game, you know, almost. And. And we just need to trust. We just need to trust.

0:27:22 - (Debbie Draybi): And I know you've mentioned your poetry and Your rapping, thinking about that for our listeners, I think that they're beautiful, creative tools to express yourself. How did you. How did you discover them? Like, in a way, what was your sort of journey in building sort of creative ways to really express?

0:27:40 - (Andre Abouharb): Yeah, like I said, I saw my brother doing his thing, and that kind of just came through the blood. My dad would do the, you know, the Lebanese folklore singing, and so I saw that. So we were all gifted.

0:27:53 - (Debbie Draybi): Your dinner parties would be very entertaining.

0:27:55 - (Andre Abouharb): This was so cool. So cool. So I almost forgot that, though. In my hospital bed, in my misery and in my darkness and in my tears and in my anxiousness, I forgot that. And it wasn't until somebody came to visit me and they gave me the positive words. They go, andre, write it down. Don't you love poetry? I'm like, yes, I do. I'm like, okay, that's a great idea. And so I started to write things down. I love music, and I grew up listening to Grandmaster Flash, young mc, you know, all these types of rappers. And I used to love that.

0:28:29 - (Andre Abouharb): Yes, I did listen to tupac in the 90s.

0:28:32 - (Natalie Moujalli): Didn't we all?

0:28:33 - (Andre Abouharb): Yeah, right? The rhythm. The rhythm was so cool and I loved it. And I'm like, man, this sounds so cool, but it's all lies. One of the things that I got into was download instrumentals of songs that made it right and then just wrap over the top of it with a positive message. So after this happened, when I was going to mass, everyone would just ask me, oh, what happened? What happened? What happened? I couldn't escape it.

0:28:58 - (Andre Abouharb): And so I had to leave the parish for a bit. And I heard about this priest who. Who loved the Bulldogs and used to say, like, cool stories at the beginning of his homily, and he'd speak cool English, and I'm like, man, I need to go check this guy out. And so then I met. Yeah, I met Father Shora back then.

0:29:14 - (Debbie Draybi): Monsignor Shora, you have a stalker. Just saying.

0:29:18 - (Andre Abouharb): And, yeah, and so, like, his homilies were so cool. And I went on the retreat and on there, you know, everything changed for me. And so that the outlook in life was just. Just so cool. And, yeah, so I loved music and I just joined everything together. I've always, you know, loved that, but I never wanted to take anything seriously. But like I said before, I kind of got it out of my bloodstream. My daughter and my son, they jumped on me on a few. On a few tracks. And we just recorded something recently on Spotify. What's it Called yes, it's.

0:29:53 - (Andre Abouharb): I'm known as ca. I just wanted Catholic Apparel to be at the front of everything. So ca. And the first album I did was 3pm and 3pm was every time I sat in hospital. And I've sat there a lot of times and I still sit there now every month. I always see that clock on the wall and I always look at it And I see three o' clock all the time. And so, yeah, 3:00pm for me was. Was what defined me. Yeah. Do you guys stop at 3pm and pray a prayer?

0:30:22 - (Natalie Moujalli): We try.

0:30:24 - (Andre Abouharb): Yeah. Try Put an alarm on your phone. Promise me. Okay.

0:30:28 - (Natalie Moujalli): Okay.

0:30:28 - (Andre Abouharb): Yeah. And it only goes for a month minute. Like you pray for one minute and you just remember Jesus dying on the cross. It's so cool.

0:30:34 - (Debbie Draybi): Yeah, Sounds great.

0:30:35 - (Natalie Moujalli): We've got homework.

0:30:36 - (Debbie Draybi): Yes.

0:30:37 - (Natalie Moujalli): Something you said struck me earlier. You said about mirroring people in the room. And it's funny because often we talk about being able to sit in your brokenness. Right. And your vulnerability and showing people the real you. And that is very important. But also sometimes it's good to lead by example and say, yes, I'm broken, but I have hope. And I'm going to show you that hope too. Because we're not going to shy away from the hope either.

0:31:04 - (Andre Abouharb): Like I said, just getting our mind into something else other than yourself is so therapeutic.

0:31:10 - (Debbie Draybi): And for our listeners who are stuck and really in their grief, in their suffering, what's one piece of advice you'd like to leave them with? Something that you feel, you know, can draw them in and give them a sense of themselves again. And build that connection with others again.

0:31:25 - (Andre Abouharb): Time heals. Time heals. It's as simple as that. Just hang in there. The storm will pass. I promise you, you'll get through the other side.

0:31:35 - (Natalie Moujalli): And now can you wrap it for us?

0:31:37 - (Andre Abouharb): Yeah. Okay, good. So one of my favorite raps is the Litany of Our Lady. So I've got a huge connection to Our Lady. So it goes like this, right? Holy Mary, pray for me. Holy Mother of God Holy mystery Holy Virgin, Our Virgins Inspiration Mother of Christ Holy Spirit Creation Mother of Div. Divine grace, Beautify my soul Mother most pure we offend you so. Mother most chaste, Whiter than snow Mother inviolate O Ridge and all Mother undefiled Heavenly shine Mother most amiable Friend of mine Mother most admirable Splendid sight Mother of good counsel, Guiding light Mother of our Creator Originator Mother of our Savior Liberator Virgin most prudent, Careful and wise Virgin most venerable I close my eyes and pray.

0:32:25 - (Debbie Draybi): There you go, listeners. Our very first rap on Finding Sanctuary.

0:32:29 - (Andre Abouharb): I thought I was going to forget the lyrics there for a bit, so good.

0:32:32 - (Natalie Moujalli): Thank you for joining us, Andre.

0:32:33 - (Andre Abouharb): You're welcome. Thanks for having me.