Silent Depression: Why Men Hide Their Pain | Mounir Bechara

Key Takeaways:

• Silent depression manifests differently in men, often presenting as anger, aggression, or addictive behaviors rather than stereotypical depressive symptoms.
• Cultural expectations and pressures can exacerbate mental health challenges, making it crucial to understand these nuances when offering support.
• Support from trusted friends and peers can play a pivotal role in encouraging men to seek help, breaking down barriers to accessing mental health services.
• Taking actionable steps beyond talk therapy is vital for healing; a holistic approach encompassing therapy, spirituality, and community support is essential.
• Understanding and addressing underlying emotions such as shame, guilt, and fear of failure can pave the way for better mental health outcomes.

Notable Quotes:

• "A lot of our men, especially in our culture, experience silent depression. It looks very different to what classic depression might look like." – Mounir Bechara
• "Healthy guilt says, ‘I recognize this is an issue, and this is what I need to do to fix it.’" – Monsignor Shora
• "Never stop trying. Each time you fall and get back up is a lesson." – Mounir Bechara
• "To find success, it isn’t just about the things you achieve, but also about the person you become." – Mounir Bechara
• "Having a brotherhood, people with integrity and faith, will help you really discern your expectations." – Monsignor Shora

Resources:

• Guiding Light Psychology

You and your mental health is important to us. If this episode brought up any heavy emotions, please know you do not need to carry them alone. Reach out to Lifeline, Beyond Blue, or the counselling service at Hills Sanctuary house at hshl.org.au 

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Transcript

0:00:00 - (Natalie Moujalli): Welcome back to another episode of Finding Sanctuary. I'm here today with Monsignor Shora. Welcome back, Monsignor.

0:00:07 - (Monsignor Shora): Thank you, Nat. Good to be here.

0:00:08 - (Natalie Moujalli): We've also got Muneer Bashara joining us from Guiding Light Psychology. Thanks for joining us.

0:00:14 - (Mounir Bechara): Thank you so much for having me. Absolute pleasure. Very excited to be here.

0:00:18 - (Natalie Moujalli): Very excited about our conversation tonight.

0:00:20 - (Mounir Bechara): Me, too.

0:00:21 - (Natalie Moujalli): I think this is going to help a lot of our listeners and myself included. We are here to talk about men and what we have been witnessing as something called silent depression.

0:00:33 - (Mounir Bechara): Absolutely.

0:00:34 - (Natalie Moujalli): And what that means in our culture and our community.

0:00:37 - (Mounir Bechara): Yes.

0:00:37 - (Natalie Moujalli): Because it's not as obvious as the name indicates and we've been missing it, I think, a lot. So I wanted to invite conversation from the both of you to kind of further deepen our awareness so that we can make some changes if we need to, for sure. So what is silent depression?

0:00:55 - (Mounir Bechara): You know, it's interesting when you first told me about the topic we're going to be discussing and when you said silent depression, I've never paid personally called it that, but I love it because it's very true because a lot of our men, especially in our culture, in our community, experience this. And I've seen this firsthand in my clinic. It's I mean, as the name implies, it's depression, but it's silent. And it looks very different to what classic depression may look like, especially in our men.

0:01:23 - (Mounir Bechara): So depression to the average person would look like sadness or withdrawal. But with a lot of our men, it can be aggression. It can lead to things like addiction, or it can be withdrawal from their family or their duties and they don't know what's going on. They would never assume that it's depression because it looks like just a man being a man, but it's not. And it's not healthy.

0:01:48 - (Natalie Moujalli): And that differs from normal depression because it's less sad or it comes across less Sad, doesn't it?

0:01:55 - (Mounir Bechara): 100 yes. Like I said, it looks a lot, a lot of the time like anger, which again, leads to things like domestic violence, burns or, you know, treating their kids poorly or things like that. And people don't know what to do with it because they're like, what's wrong with my husband or my brother or my son? And they would never assume that it's depression. They're like, oh, he's maybe really stressed at work or he's just overworked or he's doing too much. But the bottom line is there's something else going on underneath, something a little bit more sinister like Anxiety or depression or feeling overwhelmed and not understanding what to do with these emotions and how

0:02:26 - (Natalie Moujalli): to cope with them.

0:02:27 - (Mounir Bechara): 100 absolutely, yeah.

0:02:29 - (Natalie Moujalli): Monsignor, does any of this ring a bell for you?

0:02:32 - (Monsignor Shora): Yeah, ye. I can think of a few situations and that. And then another way, maybe another symptom too, is often in health come out in a health issue as well. But yeah, those things that Winnie mentioned and then for some that grew up young in Lebanon, some of the older men, we've been very silent on the trauma that they've gone through and possibly post traumatic stress disorder that's causing that, or it's just trauma from the war and it's never been talked about, never been dealt with. You know, they've just come out that either got married, come into a relationship and then they've got these responsibilities and then just this anger's coming out and behaviors or addiction. And yeah, underneath what's driving it is this depression.

0:03:20 - (Mounir Bechara): I like actually what you said about the post traumatic stress, because I feel like, especially again in our community and in our culture, there's this need to just get on with it. You know, like you said, get married, have children, do what you need to do, be the man. And little do they know there's this thing that's following them the whole time until it gets too much and too big and they're so confused as like, what is this? Where did this come from? Little did they know it's been there the whole time and it just hasn't been dealt with.

0:03:45 - (Natalie Moujalli): And often, I think with our young men, they do get into this phase where it is get married, have kids, earn a living, have a particular house, have a particular car. So very much so, they come into survival mode. That's survival mode here in Australia?

0:03:59 - (Mounir Bechara): Very much so.

0:04:00 - (Natalie Moujalli): Like within our culture. And then they're pushing it, they're pushing it, they're pushing it down. And we can't outrun these things.

0:04:07 - (Mounir Bechara): Absolutely.

0:04:08 - (Natalie Moujalli): We're going to have to face them at some point. It's just about how long it takes to get there and what the collateral damage is in between, for sure.

0:04:16 - (Mounir Bechara): And there's always collateral damage. You know, whether it's yourself with an addiction, whether it's your wife, your child, your parents, your friends, there's always going

0:04:25 - (Natalie Moujalli): to be collateral damage in your practice. How do you see the issues with, for example, if it is addiction, how do you see that play out? Do you see a lot of prevalence of that? Like people dealing with their depression or their anxiety through substances or gambling?

0:04:41 - (Mounir Bechara): Absolutely. Or pornography? Yeah. Addiction is Extremely prevalent, I think, especially amongst young men. And it doesn't discriminate. So whether you're Lebanese or not, whether you're Catholic or not. But I have seen many young men with, and even older men actually with substance issues, addictions to pornography, gambling, even eating. As Monsignor said, like, I've got clients that use eating as a coping mechanism.

0:05:04 - (Mounir Bechara): And it plays out in their entire life. It affects everything, affects their work, their relationships, and not just their relationship with their wives, like with everybody. So it's. I feel like that's like a silent killer. Within the silent depression is the addictions. Just because it's not alcohol or drugs doesn't mean it's not an addiction. And it can very easily become one without you realizing.

0:05:24 - (Natalie Moujalli): So I'm aware of, and I've used this term before, like it's sounding a bit doom and gloom, right? Like really heavy stuff. But when we have people suffering from things like this, how are they helped through therapy? What could you do with your clients to help them through this? Because it's not the be or end, all for sure. What would the journey look like for someone who sought help?

0:05:44 - (Mounir Bechara): I would call therapy like one cog in the machine. And you require many for the machine to operate at its full functionality. Talking about it just to start off with can be very, very helpful, but that it is not enough by any means. If anything, at a certain point, talking about it and doing nothing else actually makes the problem worse. So seek help, talk about it. And when it comes to things like addiction, there's an element of shame. And I think the beauty of things like confession, for example, is talking about what's going on, acknowledging it, holding yourself accountable, and then taking steps to rectify.

0:06:17 - (Mounir Bechara): So with therapy, it would be, okay, here is an issue, here is your part to play in that issue, and here's what you need to do moving forward, whether that be, seeking psychiatric help, going to rehab, going to a priest, you know, going to a men's group, going to a support group, going to Alcoholics Anonymous, whatever it may be.

0:06:33 - (Natalie Moujalli): So there's discussing the feelings, but there's also taking action, 100%. And the taking action is what materializes the talking.

0:06:40 - (Mounir Bechara): Absolutely. You will not see progress, you will not see advancement unless you do the latter. The former is important, but the latter is what pushes you forward. You need to take action. Accountability and action, extremely important.

0:06:54 - (Natalie Moujalli): It sounds easier said than done, right? Because often I think with our men, they don't realize it's happening.

0:07:02 - (Mounir Bechara): Absolutely.

0:07:02 - (Natalie Moujalli): You know what I mean? Maybe everyone else around them realizes, maybe their wives, maybe their mums, maybe their friends. Everyone else is realising that this is happening, but they don't. So how do we get that to materialize into reality?

0:07:16 - (Mounir Bechara): I think something I've seen in my practice is the importance of having high quality friends. I think a brotherhood is extremely important. Also, having a good quality wife, if you can find one, that would be great. Having someone who doesn't necessarily nag you, as they say, because a lot of men will call it nagging, but gently maybe talks about, are you okay? Is there anything I can do? Would you consider seeing someone? A lot of my young male clients have been recommended to me through their wives.

0:07:45 - (Mounir Bechara): Majority of them actually have been recommended to me through their friends. So word of mouth has been the most powerful thing when it comes to young men coming to see me. When they know that a friend of theirs that they trust and respect has also got help and he's not ashamed to admit that. It breaks down the barriers and breaks down the walls. Never force, like, don't try to even convince. If anything, practice what you preach. If you tell them like, hey, it worked for me, or it worked for my friend or my cousin or my brother, then they're more likely to go.

0:08:12 - (Mounir Bechara): That's what I found.

0:08:14 - (Natalie Moujalli): Why do you think that is? Like, it's interesting that for a man, his most likely referral source is word of mouth from another friend. Why?

0:08:23 - (Mounir Bechara): A lot of men like to be lone wolves. They like to deal with their problems by themselves, for themselves. And I think when they have someone else be like, dude, I'm going through the exact same thing. It's like a weight lifted off their shoulder. It's like, I am not alone. Because we don't tend to seek out the way that women do. For example, women will connect with each other very easily, very quickly, but for men to do so, it's extremely difficult. And even if it does happen, it's very surface level.

0:08:47 - (Mounir Bechara): But for them to be able to go deeper, it's a lot more difficult. So as soon as someone is able to go deeper, the walls break down really, really quickly. It's just, it's our nature. I mean, I know I'm. I'm a bit of a hypocrite. Like, I'm a therapist myself. I, I'm not ashamed to admit I've seen one as well. And I struggle to ask for help. It's. I don't know if it's just ingrained in us like we are supposed to be this way, but we need more people to Talk about it. Because as soon as I hear a friend, a male friend, talk to me about their problems, I'm so much more open to talking to them about mine.

0:09:18 - (Mounir Bechara): I mean, I wish we could fix it, but I guess that's just how we've been made and we need to help each other to navigate that together.

0:09:24 - (Natalie Moujalli): I think what you're saying is that men stereotypically are more comfortable with their shared lived experience than maybe just the talking out. Like, I've been through this. Yes, yes, I've been through this. You can go through this.

0:09:37 - (Mounir Bechara): Absolutely.

0:09:37 - (Natalie Moujalli): And I'd like to assume most therapists have been in therapy.

0:09:40 - (Mounir Bechara): Yes.

0:09:41 - (Natalie Moujalli): We need to do the work before we can do the work. Monsignor, what are your thoughts on this?

0:09:47 - (Monsignor Shora): Well, most priests go through spiritual direction themselves as well as secure spiritual direction. And I would absolutely agree with what Munir said. Sometimes the key breakthroughs I have in helping men is when I actually share something where I've struggled in similar way. And that just opens their eyes to see and it just lets them know they're normal and to want to then see the hope, to work on the things, to start to put the things into action, you know?

0:10:15 - (Mounir Bechara): Absolutely.

0:10:16 - (Monsignor Shora): I always tell them too, our time together is not going to be enough. You've got to put five hours in for every hour we have together. So they know. You've got to have reflection time. You've got to be reading over. You've got to start to put things into action.

0:10:29 - (Natalie Moujalli): It's that action surfacing again.

0:10:31 - (Monsignor Shora): Yes.

0:10:31 - (Natalie Moujalli): So there's been a lot of discussion around getting help and talking and talking about your feelings. But this is taking it that one step further and saying that there needs to be action that follows the talking.

0:10:42 - (Mounir Bechara): Yes.

0:10:42 - (Natalie Moujalli): Always materializing. That is very important.

0:10:46 - (Mounir Bechara): Absolutely.

0:10:47 - (Natalie Moujalli): What's coming to mind for me as I'm hearing you both speak is I'm just hearing failure, like fear of failure. When we're having these shared lived experiences, we go, oh, okay, maybe I haven't failed. If I'm hearing that other people have been through this and done this. There seems to be this really deep seated fear of failure.

0:11:07 - (Monsignor Shora): And I think the shame, a lot of shame, especially with a lot of the addictions, the guilt and the self guilt and the self hatred because of it. That's for when you more I listen, I can hear if anger is part of that behavior coming out towards their spouse or family. How much anger is there towards you?

0:11:25 - (Mounir Bechara): Yes.

0:11:26 - (Monsignor Shora): Often the tears will come then, you know. Yeah. So yeah, just to realize that and to help Them to realize that and free them from that to make. Yeah. The shame and the guilt. And I say to them, healthy guilt. Yeah, you got to feel guilty. It's not good behavior, but healthy guilt says, I recognize. Yeah. This is. I'm stepping up here and this is what I got to do to fix it. That's what healthy guilt's about. Just to stay hitting yourself and bashing yourself about it. No, no, that's. That's unhealthy guilt.

0:11:53 - (Monsignor Shora): Healthy guilt. God's given us that. Yeah. And conscience. Yeah. And says, right. What do I learn from this? What do I need to do?

0:11:59 - (Mounir Bechara): What am I.

0:12:00 - (Monsignor Shora): What are the steps I need to take?

0:12:01 - (Mounir Bechara): Absolutely.

0:12:02 - (Natalie Moujalli): What do you think about that? How much do you see? How much shame and failure and fear of failure?

0:12:08 - (Mounir Bechara): I think I see it in every single client, truthfully. Like, I think a fear of failure is a deep seated issue with everyone. But specifically with men, it's impossible to say you failed unless you stop trying. I know it sounds extremely cliche, but every time you fall and then you get back up, that is a lesson. It is not technically a failure. So if you change the way you think about, if you change the words you're using, you won't be as afraid. If anything, some of the greatest entrepreneurs that I've seen, and I'm sure many of you have seen, will say they look forward to failure because it means they get to learn something new and they get to better themselves. They're excited to better themselves. So a lot of men are afraid to fail because they think they need to be perfect all the time. They need to have everything figured out.

0:12:47 - (Mounir Bechara): I mean, to be controversial to say, but it's such an arrogant way to think. They think it's like, I'm trying to be good for my family. It's like, well, really like all they want you to do is show up and keep showing up. And if you do that, you're golden. But if your thing is I need to be perfect, that's more you thing than it is anybody else. And then you got to ask yourself, why do I need to be perfect? Because I'm not good enough unless I am perfect.

0:13:07 - (Mounir Bechara): And then you get to the. The issue. So this is the benefit of therapy, is getting to that. And then from there, let's work on it.

0:13:13 - (Natalie Moujalli): Yeah. Getting to the root cause of the problem and then working your way out.

0:13:17 - (Mounir Bechara): 100. So that fear of failure, like, if you realize failure is not something to be a feed, it's something to look forward to and embrace. And the only Way to fail is to stop trying. So never stop trying. And you're never going to fail because eventually you will succeed. And I found, again, the shared lived experience, whether you're Catholic or not. I found that when you bring up examples of really successful people for, say, the secular world, you tell them examples. Look at how many times this person failed or this person failed, and look how successful they became, whether it be Elon Musk or Steve Jobs or Walt Disney, whoever. And then for the Catholics, how many saints failed?

0:13:51 - (Mounir Bechara): Time and time and time again, the man who has the keys to the gates of heaven denied Christ not once, three times. And when you position it like that, they're like, okay, so I'm okay, and I'm going to be okay. It's like, yes, because we're flawed and he's there regardless.

0:14:06 - (Natalie Moujalli): It's funny how many times we've had positive and successful experiences probably far outweighs the moments that we feel like we've failed, but yet they're the moments that stay so in the forefront of our mind. So I'm going to dig a little deeper. Go for it, Monir.

0:14:25 - (Mounir Bechara): Yes.

0:14:25 - (Natalie Moujalli): Share a time with me. If you're comfortable, of course, that you felt like you failed and how you came out of that.

0:14:32 - (Mounir Bechara): Okay, I can do a really, like, simple, basic one, and then I can do a more intense one. I'll start off with the simple, basic one. My first few years of university weren't the greatest. I didn't do as well as I should and thought I would. And then I started to do really well, and I started to consistently do very well. And then I was getting a certain level, say, distinctions or high distinctions, and I got a credit. And I will never forget coming home. And this is extremely embarrassing. I was. So I thought, like, oh, my God. I didn't meet the expectation that I set for myself. I actually started to get really emotional. Started to. I started to cry. I was like, what's going on? Like, what? I instantly felt like I wasn't good enough because I didn't meet the mark.

0:15:09 - (Mounir Bechara): I remember my mom came in and she's like, are you serious? You did really well. It's fine. And even if you didn't, you pick yourself up and you keep going. So God bless her. But then with opening up my clinic and any time anything went wrong in the clinic, even if I had absolutely nothing to do with me because I was the director, I took it, like, personally. Yes. Like, it was me. So I had to really learn to, like, relinquish control and Realize that I can't control everything. I shouldn't be controlling everything.

0:15:35 - (Mounir Bechara): I'm one big part, but one part of this machine. So I had to really let go. It's still a struggle. Even now. If anything goes wrong, I'm, like, always on alert. Like, my back is against the wall and I'm trying to navigate that, but failure is technically still a fee of mine.

0:15:51 - (Natalie Moujalli): Yeah.

0:15:52 - (Mounir Bechara): So it's a matter of reminding myself. You're failing unless you stop trying. You're not failing unless you stop trying.

0:15:57 - (Natalie Moujalli): Yeah. Thank you for sharing that.

0:15:58 - (Mounir Bechara): You're so welcome.

0:15:59 - (Natalie Moujalli): It's really important for us to hear, I think, because each and every one of us has a fear of failure. And I know we're highlighting that for males tonight, but it's the same for the women, for sure. But I believe that once we lean into that and we're vulnerable and open about our experiences and the fear kind of dissipates.

0:16:17 - (Mounir Bechara): Absolutely.

0:16:18 - (Natalie Moujalli): It's out there, laid bare on the table for all of us to see. And not one person's table is empty and the other ones is full. We all have. Have things that we feel ashamed of, times that we've failed, weaknesses. And you're right. Unless we stop trying, that's when you fail. Yeah.

0:16:34 - (Mounir Bechara): Just keep going. Just keep going.

0:16:36 - (Natalie Moujalli): Well, I hope you were thinking while Monique was talking.

0:16:40 - (Monsignor Shora): You're asking me to go to confession now? I can remember one academic one. And I was in the seminary, and it was a tough. I don't know if it was Christology or Really tough theology course. Really tough. And I had one of the top students helping me. And anyway, I did the assignment that came back, and Fess actually almost accused me of plagiarizing. And I thought, wow, it's one of the assignments I did the most work on. And he says, no, no, you got to. I'm like, I'll come past you because. And I thought I said, look, I didn't plagiarize. I said, so. And so was tutoring me. And, you know, like, oh, that. I was devastated by that. I was.

0:17:18 - (Monsignor Shora): Yeah. And the other failures that I really feel is when I get elevated, when I lose my temper or in a little bit in meetings or at a. Yeah. Afterwards. I'm really. You know. And. Yeah. They're the sor. Things that really impact on me after. And I say, I'm human. I gotta go let them know I'm sorry for that. I got elevated. This is. What an issue. Your issue's good to. You know what you were saying? Yeah. Just to know, to go back.

0:17:41 - (Natalie Moujalli): So you repair. You repair the situation.

0:17:43 - (Monsignor Shora): Yeah, yeah. If I didn't know how to do that and it just carried it inside, it eats at me, you know, it's like, I've got to talk it out at the right time. Just wait.

0:17:52 - (Natalie Moujalli): Thank you for sharing that as well. I think what you've just highlighted is that, yes, we have our failures, but, you know, that try again thing, it's also repair, repair the. The damage we've done when we feel like we've failed. Because that's actually where the success is.

0:18:07 - (Monsignor Shora): And you do learn from it. You actually, if you do and the other person enters into the conversation and you share a bit of vulnerability yourself, they then do, and you actually get to know more about them and they get to know more, and it actually improves the relationship. So it becomes a great success.

0:18:24 - (Natalie Moujalli): It improves it and it deepens it, doesn't it?

0:18:25 - (Mounir Bechara): Yeah, absolutely.

0:18:26 - (Natalie Moujalli): So my next question to you is around expectations and the expectations that one, men put on themselves. Two, the assumed ones from society and culture, and three, the ones that they get from wives and children and work and finances and the rest of it. Often we can have men measuring themselves up to unrealistic expectations of where they should be at a certain stage of their life. And when they feel like they haven't achieved that goal, they're completely deflated.

0:18:58 - (Natalie Moujalli): And they can often fall into depression and anxiety and then use unhealthy coping skills to pull themselves what they believe is pulling themselves back up. It's kind of just masking those feelings. What are your thoughts on that? Those expectations that they should be at a certain place in their life by a certain time and they're not now?

0:19:18 - (Mounir Bechara): Look, in a general sense, there's nothing wrong with having expectations. It becomes a problem when they are obviously unrealistic. When I say unrealistic, I don't just mean like, oh, you should have, like a house before you're married, for example. I mean, it's a great expectation to try and achieve, but if you haven't set yourself up to do so, you can't expect to be there. So then if you're feeling down, use that emotion, that sadness, that shame, that guilt as a guide.

0:19:45 - (Mounir Bechara): All of our emotions are valid and all of our emotions can be used as a guide. Rather than letting it send you into a pit, let it propel you forward. I don't feel good at the fact that I'm 25 and I don't have any savings. Okay, great. Set up a savings account. Start saving. From now, it's very easy to fall into a slippery slope of you should have a, B and C by X, Y and Z date. It's about you reflecting with yourself and asking yourself, like, what are my ultimate goals? Sitting with yourself, talking about, okay, this is where I want to be. This is how I'm going to get there. If I can get there alone, great. If I need help, I need to ask for it. You've got to be realistic with yourself because the world isn't going to be.

0:20:21 - (Mounir Bechara): Instagram is. It's all fake. It's literally the best.

0:20:24 - (Natalie Moujalli): Can you say that again?

0:20:25 - (Mounir Bechara): Instagram is all fake. It is the best of the best. No one is ever going to share their failures and their. And even when they're sharing their failures, they are only sharing it once they've succeeded. It's like, I got here through all these failures.

0:20:37 - (Natalie Moujalli): So in the glamorous way.

0:20:39 - (Mounir Bechara): Absolutely. It is always in the most glamorous way. And I've seen it. I've peaked behind the curtain. I've had clients that are influencers, that are extremely successful through Instagram and they're miserable and it's sad, but it's the reality. Don't trust that. Sit with yourself. Find people in your life that you believe are genuinely successful in the right ways. And I think from a Catholic perspective, ultimately your goal is to get yourself and all of your family to heaven.

0:21:04 - (Mounir Bechara): If you're chasing material, and that is veering you away from heaven, even if you achieve the material, you are not fulfilling your duties. And it's about really recognizing that.

0:21:15 - (Natalie Moujalli): I've got the girls in the background air clapping for you, Joanie and Tatiana.

0:21:20 - (Mounir Bechara): I appreciate that. Thank you.

0:21:24 - (Natalie Moujalli): As well as the priest.

0:21:25 - (Monsignor Shora): Yeah, look, expectations, yes. As Monir said, there are some. And I really like the way people have been a little bit slack in trying to meet the expectations, be hard on themselves, rather than. I really like the way he said, well, hang on, look, let that teach you and guide you in the world. Social media, from different things. People do carry such unfair and unrealistic expectations on themselves, including the success thing. You can't fail, you know, but having some sense of brotherhood, having people around you that have got integrity and have got faith and have got their feet on the ground and their heart connected to Christ.

0:22:02 - (Monsignor Shora): That's the. They'll be the people that help you, you know, really discern your expectations if. Are they God's expectations, you know?

0:22:09 - (Mounir Bechara): Yeah.

0:22:10 - (Monsignor Shora): So.

0:22:11 - (Natalie Moujalli): And I guess what does achievement really mean? Because there's surface level achievement. Yes. You can get the house, the Car, the job, the brands and all those can achieve that. But we're talking about achievement, of character, of purpose and of fulfillment and joy.

0:22:28 - (Mounir Bechara): Yeah.

0:22:29 - (Monsignor Shora): I heard a quote recently. There's some good things happen on social media. I heard a quote. Do you want a crowded life or a fulfilled life?

0:22:36 - (Natalie Moujalli): Can we have both?

0:22:38 - (Monsignor Shora): Crowded. It's got a overcrowded. It's got the sense of too.

0:22:41 - (Natalie Moujalli): Yeah.

0:22:42 - (Monsignor Shora): Yeah.

0:22:42 - (Mounir Bechara): Too much.

0:22:42 - (Monsignor Shora): Yeah. Whereas fulfilled. Yeah. I have people in my life, but I'm not just part of a crowd. I don't get missed in a crowd. And they're not just a crowd around me. It's brotherhood, sisterhood, it's family, it's friends.

0:22:54 - (Mounir Bechara): Yeah.

0:22:55 - (Monsignor Shora): So. And things crowd us. A lot of things crowd our lives. Yeah. The obsession with things and material things is a problem big time.

0:23:04 - (Mounir Bechara): I remember a priest explaining to me, I'm probably going to say the. The verse wrong, but when Jesus says that it will be easier for the camel to walk through the eye of the needle. And I didn't fully understand it, but the point is, is the camel, in order to walk through the eye of the needle, has to shed all of the things that are on it. So things. So it'll be easier for that to happen than for a r man to enter heaven because you need to let go and be detached from everything.

0:23:28 - (Mounir Bechara): And that is very hard for men to do because we are very easily attached to our things because our things give us worth.

0:23:35 - (Natalie Moujalli): Yeah.

0:23:35 - (Mounir Bechara): I achieved that. I have the Maserati, I have the Bentley, I have the million dollar properties, I have the successful business. That's where my worth comes from.

0:23:43 - (Natalie Moujalli): I have the blue tick verification thing

0:23:46 - (Mounir Bechara): on Instagram that you can pay for now. Yeah.

0:23:48 - (Monsignor Shora): It generally runs out at about 40 years of age when the men who have all of those things ticked actually find themselves in emptiness. And that's something else where solid depression creeps in when the successful man who has actually got everything is. Actually finds emptiness. They haven't got their heart on what's the real deep purpose of what they're doing? Yeah. So it's actually they've been doing, doing, doing, and the material things is there. And then, you know, I've had men come to me.

0:24:15 - (Monsignor Shora): One man, three children, successful, they're in university, he got a great job, great company, everything like that. I'm depressed, I'm not happy. Happy wife, happy good wife, you know, and it hasn't got that inner. Because the whole identity was on the things what I've done, not who am I, who am I called to be

0:24:33 - (Natalie Moujalli): what's your purpose, I guess.

0:24:35 - (Mounir Bechara): Yeah, yeah.

0:24:36 - (Natalie Moujalli): So how does a man who is struggling with these thoughts and feelings of depression and anxiety, how do they get help? What do they do? Like, what pulls them over the line? Because a lot of people might be listening right now going, yeah, it's just not realistic to fix this. It's too far gone.

0:24:54 - (Mounir Bechara): Never lose hope. That's the one thing we can never do, is never lose hope. Not that it's a step by step, like 1, 2, 3. But I would say if you have good friends around you, maybe speak to one of them. If your wife is someone that is open and will not judge you, maybe speak to her. Go and see a therapist. See a therapist that you feel is aligned with your values. Someone who might be the same religion or the same cultural background. And speak to your parish priest.

0:25:17 - (Mounir Bechara): Just speak to someone. Get the conversation started. Don't sit in this by yourself. Because again, without getting to theological, like, that's what the devil wants. He wants you isolated, he wants you alone. He wants you cut off from all your resources because you have them there. You're just so ashamed to use them. They say, right before you sin, God is telling you, remember my mercy. The devil is telling you, remember God's mercy. And God is telling you, remember my wrath.

0:25:42 - (Mounir Bechara): After you sin, the devil is like, remember God's wrath. And God is telling you, remember my mercy. So right before you fall, the devil's telling you, it's fine, just do it. It's all good. And God's like, no, don't do it. It's not right. And then after you do it, the devil's like, see, you're horrible example. God's wrath is going to come down on you, whereas God's like, I am merciful. Listen to God both times.

0:25:59 - (Mounir Bechara): Prevent yourself from doing it. And if you end up doing it,

0:26:01 - (Natalie Moujalli): still listen to him and stay in his mercy always.

0:26:04 - (Mounir Bechara): Yeah, yeah.

0:26:05 - (Monsignor Shora): And even for those that are not theological or have that formation, they have the same two voices, one on the

0:26:11 - (Natalie Moujalli): side of each shoulder.

0:26:12 - (Monsignor Shora): Yeah, yeah, yeah. The negative chatterbox, the positive shadow box,

0:26:15 - (Mounir Bechara): I used to call it, Son.

0:26:17 - (Monsignor Shora): Yeah, yeah.

0:26:17 - (Mounir Bechara): Start a conversation with someone that you trust, that you feel like will understand and will guide you in the right direction. But just tell someone, do not suffer with this alone. You cannot do this alone.

0:26:29 - (Natalie Moujalli): How would they pick it in themselves? We talked about awareness before. What are some of the signs and symptoms that they would be feeling? They would think, oh, that, no, I'm fine. That's got nothing to do with this. But it's actually everything to do with this.

0:26:41 - (Mounir Bechara): I think anger is probably the biggest prevalent emotion amongst Lebanese and men in general, I would say because it's one of the only emotions that is always a secondary emotion, meaning it's hiding something underneath. Always. And more often than not it's something a lot more sinister, a lot more shameful. For me, men, whether it be sadness or guilt or shame or not feeling good enough, whatever it is.

0:27:01 - (Natalie Moujalli): So let's explain that. So there's primary emotions and there's secondary emotions. Right. The secondary emotions are the ones that we allow ourselves to feel and show to the general public, which is often something like anger.

0:27:14 - (Mounir Bechara): Right.

0:27:14 - (Natalie Moujalli): And then the primary emotions are the ones that we keep to ourselves underneath the water, the tip of the iceberg. They're the ones underneath that we hide. So what could be some of our primary emotions?

0:27:25 - (Mounir Bechara): I. Sadness, guilt, shame, embarrassment, fear of rejection, for sure.

0:27:32 - (Natalie Moujalli): Abandonment.

0:27:32 - (Mounir Bechara): Yes. Not feeling good enough, your self worth being extremely low. All of those gross emotions that no one really wants to experience, so they

0:27:41 - (Natalie Moujalli): bury them and we don't want to experience them. So for sure, yes, we bury them. You're right.

0:27:44 - (Mounir Bechara): Yes.

0:27:45 - (Monsignor Shora): And would there be things like loss of motivation, oversleeping people, then going to shut down mode? Yeah, like those sort of signs.

0:27:54 - (Mounir Bechara): Those would be the symptoms of the stronger emotions being suppressed. Yeah, I would say, yeah.

0:27:59 - (Natalie Moujalli): Isolating.

0:28:00 - (Monsignor Shora): Isolating, yeah, yeah. And then the substances.

0:28:03 - (Mounir Bechara): Obviously drinking numbs everything because when you suppress enough, those emotions are going to come out whether you like it or not. So when they start to come out, you're like, nope. And then you shut them down with something like a substance or like any type of addiction, anger, if you are engaging in things that you don't usually engage in, whether it's maybe you're gambling a little bit more, you're drinking a little bit more, you find yourself reaching for the alcohol at the end of a long day or you're getting more annoyed with your children and you're less tolerant of their screaming or yelling or laughing.

0:28:32 - (Mounir Bechara): Maybe your wife, you're a lot more snappy towards her. Even she's noticing. Is everything okay? If you're hearing someone say to you is everything okay? Especially coming from a place of compassion, let that be an alarm bell for you. I know it is with me because I can do it as well. I can get snappy. And as soon as anyone in my life says is everything okay? I'm like, okay, I need to do a self check in.

0:28:50 - (Mounir Bechara): Something's happening for me.

0:28:52 - (Natalie Moujalli): And I think another one that's Very underrated. Is if you notice yourself scrolling, a lot more scrolling. Yeah, yeah. If you're doom scrolling and you're like, Instead of spending 10, 20 minutes, you're now spending hours. That's another.

0:29:06 - (Monsignor Shora): What did you call it?

0:29:07 - (Mounir Bechara): Doom. Wow. Have you stopped praying? Are you like. If you're someone who's. Do you attend. Do you still attend mass? Do you find yourself. It's a struggle to go to mass? Is it a struggle to socialize your friends that you enjoyed hanging out with? Do you no longer enjoy hanging out with them? Ask yourself why?

0:29:22 - (Natalie Moujalli): Just a self checking, right?

0:29:23 - (Mounir Bechara): For sure.

0:29:24 - (Natalie Moujalli): Yeah.

0:29:24 - (Mounir Bechara): Just a gentle self check in. Because we can be very critical and very judgmental towards ourselves. So it's a matter of, okay, what's actually happening? Do I need to get help or do I need to talk to someone?

0:29:34 - (Natalie Moujalli): And often that help isn't a blanket statement. Go to therapy. Of course it's yeah, go to therapy. That's one piece of the puzzle. Go to therapy. Yes. That's one hour, maybe every fortnight or once a week. What follows that, what's outside of that? Are you getting vitamin D? Are you getting exercise? Are you eating well? Are you sleeping? Yes, you're right. Where are you at with your spirituality? Where are you at with your friendships?

0:29:57 - (Natalie Moujalli): Very much so. Needs a holistic approach.

0:29:59 - (Mounir Bechara): Yes. Very successful. CL. And meaning like when they've come, they've become very successful pretty quickly. Are the ones that have done all of that and still feel that nagging feeling. They'll come to me and I'll list off. Are you doing abcd? And then like, yep, yep, yep. Okay, cool. Now we can do the talk therapy. And you're able to do the talk therapy because you have outlets, you have healthy outlets.

0:30:19 - (Natalie Moujalli): So it's not one or the other. It's a parallel process.

0:30:22 - (Mounir Bechara): Absolutely.

0:30:22 - (Natalie Moujalli): Journey to be taken in conjunction with other things.

0:30:26 - (Mounir Bechara): Yes, for sure. Sure, absolutely.

0:30:28 - (Natalie Moujalli): It's become apparent as we've gone through the episode that there seems to be. I don't know if I'd call it a need, but a desire for a man to hear from another male that it would be okay for them to seek therapy because they've already done it. What are your thoughts on that?

0:30:43 - (Mounir Bechara): I think it's true. It's unfortunately true. It's definitely something that I've seen that most of the men that have come have come mainly because another man has either encouraged them or has told them. I've also been. And it's really, really helpful to me. I think there's something about knowing that someone else is going through what you're going through or has dealt with what you've dealt with, and they've dealt with it in this way.

0:31:06 - (Mounir Bechara): If I tell you that maybe this particular TV show is amazing or maybe this particular food is amazing, like, if you trust me and you respect me, you're going to probably listen to what I have to say.

0:31:16 - (Natalie Moujalli): I think you just highlighted probably the importance of what you just said. You said if you trust me.

0:31:22 - (Mounir Bechara): Yes.

0:31:22 - (Natalie Moujalli): And if you respect me, you're going to highlight the importance of what I just said. So it's not about just any male telling you, you know, you should go to therapy. I've been. It needs to come. It sounds like it needs to come from a trusted, respected source for another male to take it seriously.

0:31:40 - (Mounir Bechara): Yeah. It would be even better if that person has also attempted therapy. So it's like, I trust you, I respect you, and you've also done it and you've succeeded. Fantastic. Okay, maybe now I can go. It breaks down because there are several barriers before a man is okay to go to therapy, and I feel like that breaks down many of them.

0:31:56 - (Natalie Moujalli): So it's a call out to all the men who have sought therapy in the community to start sharing that with your friends.

0:32:02 - (Mounir Bechara): Absolutely.

0:32:03 - (Natalie Moujalli): Because, you know, you may just be the difference in the situation. What are your thoughts, Monsignor?

0:32:07 - (Monsignor Shora): Yeah, I do. And I think for them to see it, it's part of human formation and faith formation and discipleship formation, you know, so. Yeah, that's not. Oh, just if you need. It's something good. Necessary to have it in your habit, in your life. Yeah, yeah. You.

0:32:24 - (Mounir Bechara): For sure.

0:32:25 - (Natalie Moujalli): Thank you so much for joining us, Moody.

0:32:27 - (Mounir Bechara): Absolute pleasure.

0:32:28 - (Natalie Moujalli): And thank you, Monsignor.

0:32:29 - (Monsignor Shora): Thank you. And I look forward to us interviewing more male therapists and psychologists.

0:32:36 - (Mounir Bechara): Yeah, bring them on.