The Mama Judy and Jill Podcast

Episode 9: Art Can Heal (Part 2) - An Interview with Val Vaganek

• Jill Gottenstrater, Judy George, Val Vaganek • Episode 9

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In part 2 of Art Can Heal, Mama Judy and I talk with Val Vaganek and look at ways art has helped her overcome trauma and how it continues to.

Using objects from her life that previously triggered painful emotions, Val reshapes their significance with her art. The trauma these “artifacts” represent may not have been thoroughly verbalized, but art has provided the voice and empowered a sense of self in Val to confidently move forward in healing. This safe space is where she allows triggered emotions to surface for examination and where she repurposes them to her design.

Val’s Instagram profile features the quote, “Our issues are in our tissues”, which touches on her understanding of how our traumas are stored in our bodies. She says one of the most powerful ways to experience relief from trauma is through somatic experience. By physically rearranging the items she views as representing pain, her body is engaged in the creative process of rewriting her narrative. So, body and mind are joined in this creativity, which she aptly describes as “cathartic”.

This discussion really opened our eyes to the power of art to overcome. And, while we already appreciated art’s healing influence in our own experiences, that appreciation has been magnified by hearing Val’s story.

(Click here to connect with Val on Instagram)

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Jill:

Welcome back friends. We're so glad you're joining us today. Today we're gonna be talking about a topic that is near and dear to our hearts. It's about how art can be used as a form of healing. And before we get to that, I wanted to introduce you to a special guest we have on today. Val Ganek is here with us today. Val comes from, she lives in Florida. Hi, Val. Val lives in Florida and she's grew up in New Jersey. She's born and raised in New Jersey, but she's living in Florida now and she is an amazing artist and we will share a link to her Instagram account. That was one place where, Val spends a lot of time and she is specifically is into collaging paper journaling or journaling I would say. And slow stitching. Is that correct? Val,

Val:

welcome. Yeah. Fabrics, you know, stitching paper glue. Get my hands dirty. Sure. Whatever.

Jill:

Mm-hmm. Love it. Well, we're glad you're here today. Thank, and I wanted to also start off by giving a little bit of a warning on the topic today that we're gonna be discussing. We are talking about trauma, in that, you know that all three of us have actually experienced traumas in our lives. But today there will be things discussed that could be a bit triggering for you. So if this is something that you feel like maybe isn't the best, episode to listen to. Then we ask that you just pause and we'll catch you on another week, and we're grateful, that you jumped in today. But, so Mama, Judy and Val actually met on Instagram. We're all three Instagram friends now, but they met that way. And so Mama Judy, tell me a little bit, how about how you and Val met? Well, you

Mama Judy:

know, it's, you start. On Instagram, you post your own things. You see other people. And Instagram, you can make a connection with people based on their posts and their art without ever meeting them in person. And somehow Val and I kind of did. A connection through what we

Val:

shared about

Mama Judy:

our lives and our art. And in fact, we've done journal swapping. Mm-hmm. And we, and Val occasionally sent me, excuse me, wonderful materials that I use in my journal, and it really came just from the human connection that I felt. In watching and reading Val's Instagram posts, what would you say? Anything

Val:

to add, Val? Yeah, I, I would agree with everything you said, and I recall. Something that I must have written must have just really touched your heart because you sent me a warrior. One of your, oh, one of your warrior dolls that you had created and um, you just sent, you gifted me with her and I was so taken aback and so grateful. I mean, she still hangs in my window right to the kind of left of my eyesight in my art room where I work. And she's my protector, and I look up to her all the time, and every time I see her, I always think about you, Judith, because we connected like that so quickly and amazingly, and I'm, I'm forever grateful for our connection. I do remember

Mama Judy:

that, Val, and it was, it was a very heartfelt post that you had done. And I don't remember the exact words, nor do I, but it touched my heart, and that's what happens. I think, even on Instagram. You will read something, see something, and you will see the humanness of the person. Not their art or the artist, but the human being. And you're right, I did. And she has a wonderful spot. In fact, I thought, God, I'd like to be hanging from that window too. It's a wonderful spot. But Val, that kind of takes us into what we wanna talk about today. On another episode, Jill and I talk about how art has helped us through traumatic events, traumas, um, I'm going to use that word for any unpleasant. Dramatic event, and we know that you are a very big advocate for mental health. Wondered if, like Jill said earlier, you would share ways in which you feel art and what you create has helped you through any rough periods in your life.

Val:

I'd be glad to do that, Judah. Thank you. Um, When I first started Art only, it was probably back in 20 19, 20 20, somewhere in there. Um, I was just creating stuff cuz it looked cute or, you know, for whatever reason I was, I was drawn to creating and I never thought I would actually be an artist because in my family growing up, We are very much placed in a box and my baby brother is the artist. I was the jock, the athlete. My next up was the musician and my oldest brother is, is the, is the brain the, genius. So I played sports my entire life. I played all the way up until I was in my fifties. I just stopped playing pickleball recently cuz of an injury. Never did. I think I had an artistic bone. So when I started dabbling with collage and things, I really loved it, but I just felt like I was making to make and post on Instagram. When I went to, I did fly out to California to see Beatrice Helton, one of her workshops, she had a workshop on little books. I was so drawn to going, I don't know why I even said to my partner, you're never gonna believe this, but I'd like to. This was my first class. I'd like to go to a live class and learn more about creating. And she said, sure. Great. When is it? And where is it? And I just kind of sheepishly looked at her and said, well, it's in California and I live in Florida. She's like California. I said, something in here is drawing me to go there. I followed B, you know, Beecher's online. I loved her stuff. But there was more, like you said, that Human Connect there was more. So I went and I learned how to make little books, but more importantly in her workshop. I started to learn how to express what's inside of me. It started to come out because it was a safe environment and that's how be creates. She creates a lot to express. Her inner thoughts, her inner traumas, her inner feelings, whatever. So that was my beginning. That was my, um, jumping start. And then probably two summers ago, Probably two summers ago, I went to my first ever live, I mean my first ever four day workshop with Colleen Atara and that too. That was in Pennsylvania. I've since been back, I've gone to two now, two four day workshops with her and taken a bunch of her online classes, which she puts herself into while she's. Explaining things to us, it totally freed me to to be who I am and let out the things that I have been through in my life that have caused me trauma, and through that processing. With fabric, with paper, with stitching, with found materials, with repurposed full materials, with things from the outdoors. It, it's been very cathartic and it has helped me to heal. I had a big lock with my mom because of young rejection and lack of. emotional connection and feeling abandoned in my very, very, very early years. And consequently, I wasn't able to really ever speak much about these feelings yet in the art world, in my art room, in my space. I was able to start to pull together stuff and I actually was able to create almost an entire art journal on things with my mom, things in my family, and by the end of it, I could just feel this like cathartic release of pain and emotion and was almost ready to be able to forgive her. Oh man, that is huge. Yeah, and I, believe me, I've been on some therapist's couch for years and years and years and years, you know, over the years. So for that to happen along with the counseling, along with the trauma recovery I'd been in, that was huge for me. Val, why do

Mama Judy:

you think, from your experience, The art was able to have you let go versus talking to someone, say, like you said, a therapist. What is it about art that allows us to be as free as you have become from the pain that was locked

Val:

inside? Trauma lives in your body? That I've learned trauma gets best relief through somatic experiences, somatic movement and the the finding and creating of pages, so to speak, using my mother's clothing, my mother's jewelry, my mother's artifacts. Things that I was able to gather and collect from her home when she passed two and a half years ago. Okay. And I think just the gathering of all of that, the movement of that, the putting it down and stitching, course stitching is very, very healing. I don't care for anyone. I think, I think is what enabled. Some of it to just come out physically, like mm-hmm. On paper with fabric, you know, with mm-hmm. With thread needle and, and with, you know, GSO and layering and all of that. That comes with how I, how I create and the getting it out and putting it down and seeing it, and then sharing it. Openly braising sharing it on Instagram. Um, and then having, having people comment that this too has been a process they try to do and how much my art has helped them maybe turn a corner or, or seek some other kind of therapeutic modes to, to their own healing. Um, That was very, what's the word I want, affirming for me, right. To know that I, I, my vulnerability helped others. Because when you put things down in a journal, not just writing, but pictures and, and words that just come, that's cathartic. And that Absolutely, that's that. Definitely. Initiates a deeper healing. At least it has on my level. And I only really shared one or two of my deep journals cuz I have several that, cuz sometimes I think, you know, you know, this might be a bit like you said, Jillian, it might be triggering to others. maybe I should put a little thing in the beginning of my post warning. Triggering. Might be triggering like, like you are with this podcast.

Mama Judy:

Yeah. Well, you know, so Val, at listening to you, the thing, I think we've all done some type of journaling like that, but the thing I picked up on your experience, you chose items that belong to the person. That you had the painful experience with, and I'm wondering, when you picked up, let's say, a broach that belonged to your mother to put in your journal, did that trigger memories in seeing that item that helped you process through

Val:

them? Pretty much everything that I have used, mm-hmm. Has been a trigger for me. Yet, In my trauma recovery, healing, I had a trauma coach for about 12 weeks. I do a lot of bibliotherapy. I, you know, I, I don't have a trauma therapist. I wish I did. I can't find one down here unless I wanna go online, which I'm getting ready to. But anyway, I have learned in my trauma recovery strategies, coping strategies and skills, when my triggers pop. There's several things that I know to do for myself that help ease and release and, and relieve the trigger. And I've been able to move through some of those triggers, like I said, towards forgiveness.

Mama Judy:

That's art has done aous beautiful thing for your life.

Val:

It truly has Judy, it truly has. Um, there's been many things in my life that have been traumatic. Haven't addressed them all yet, who are mm-hmm. Mostly I've been working on my mom and my family and my son. My son. I have a 37 year old son mm-hmm. That has, um, intellectual disability. Mm-hmm. Uh, moderate to severe autism, oc c, d and epilepsy. Okay. And I use him in some photos. And I use some of his jeans that he's broken zippers on. I'll use the jeans in there, you know, to, to help me process and work through some of my guilt. Um, unfortunately he lives in a group home and he, I had to put him in a group home earlier than I wanted to. Mm-hmm. he was my first born. He is. He's my heart outside of my chest. And I see him three days a week and his dad sees him three days a week. So he's with his family for most of the week. He lives five minutes away. Right. Yet, yet, I, I need, I need healing for. As a mom, I felt guilty. It must have been something I did while I was pregnant. Maybe I shouldn't have been swimming in my first trimester. You know, all of the things you go through. So using his things helps putting his face out there. People just giving me affirmation about, about him. You know, sometimes I get comments. I shared a birthday photo, you know, I mean, I. That people welcome, welcome him. I, you know, I love seeing

Mama Judy:

his photos with you. He's a very handsome young man. Yeah, he's young. I'm 78, so Of course he's

Val:

young. Yeah, he's young. He's 37. Um, now I.

Jill:

One question I had was when you talked about using the, the materials from your mom, to me it almost, and I wonder if this is true for you, it seems empowering for you potentially to be taking those and putting'em where you want and how you wanna lay them out and mix them or whatever. Is that the case? Does it feel like you're kind of having some control? Cuz I know a lot of people experience trauma. A lot of it is a lack of control in some situations. So is that part of it?

Val:

That is part of it. I do believe that is part of it. Um, she did the best she could with what she had. Mm-hmm. And unfor, I don't know if y'all know anything at all about intergenerational trauma. My mother was traumatized. I didn't learn a lot about her trauma until maybe 10 years before she passed. Mm-hmm. When she started telling me about, Her upbringing and the abuse in her household and what she had experienced. I did witness my father beating her almost nightly as a young child. That was a big part of my, my trauma. My mother was a survivor. You know, I mean, here in your frontal neocortex, you know, you, you think, you know, but when you get back into the amygdala, all of the feelings and the emotions, It's hard to forgive somebody, but knowing what she went through and she did the best she could, it took me a very long time to get there. And I know, like you said, jelly, taking her broaches and her clothing and her bits and pieces of pocketbook and all the things that I was so anti growing up. Yeah. Unfortunately, my mom tried to make me be who she wanted me to be. Mm-hmm. And I was nothing like my mother, nothing. So using those things that I was so anti against for so much, my life was very cathartic, but yet also, I'm not so sure it was controlling as it was. It's my journal. It's my journey and now I'm going to use bits and pieces to allow me to heal from what those pieces represent, what they're, what they symbolize in a lot of my years, and it's mine to use

Mama Judy:

to that young

Val:

child and the teenage child grew up. The whole growing up years. Mm-hmm. She wanted me to be this girly girl, makeup, hair, you know, clothing. And I was a tomboy. I hope I was a tomboy. I was such a jock that I wanted nothing to do with makeup and hair and clothes. And she wanted me, and, you know, hat leather shoes and, and fancy dress. Oh, I, I, I, If this was, wasn't just a podcast. Someday we'll get together, the three of us. I'll show you my school pictures. Okay. And the nightmare I had the night before when she'd wrap all my hair in Bobby pins, you know, to make my hair be curly. You know, I mean, it's just amazing. It's amazing. And now guess what, ladies, because I've healed and I've been able to heal so much, I'm still in the process. I love wearing dresses now and I love wearing skirts now, and I love wearing curly hair now and earrings and makeup. Go figure. Well,

Mama Judy:

that's because that's your

Jill:

choice. Yes. Healing through your art. Yes,

Mama Judy:

yes. Has allowed you to make your choices. Mm-hmm. Even

Jill:

if they

Mama Judy:

parallel what your mother maybe wanted at that time, it wasn't your choice. Now it

Val:

is. And I know using the art is what was so cathartic to, I could feel it in me. I could feel it just, does that make sense?

Mama Judy:

Absolutely. It's like, well, first of all, I know about intergenerational abuse from my ex-husband who experienced it and passed it on. Mm-hmm. So that is something I think that is out there that's more common than we recognize. Mm-hmm. Secondly, by getting past all that, you now

Val:

have

Mama Judy:

wings. It's like, Being reborn with a set of wings, you can go anywhere you want. Mm-hmm. Especially through the expression that you do in art. Mm-hmm. And that leads me to a question, which is art has given you a great foundation, it has moved you tremendously. Do you ever see yourself at this point? Not

Val:

doing art. Can't imagine not doing art, not creating, I mean, I, I go for lowell's, like I'm in a little bit of a lull. Mm-hmm. Now, only because we just traveled again. We just got back and, you know, all the responsibilities. The yard, you know, all of that. No, I can't. I, I, I walk into my art room every day. I look at everything. I sit down on my table, I touch the things that are all over my table, and I say right out loud, I'll be back as soon as I can get myself five minutes.

Mama Judy:

I thought I was the only one that talked to my art supplies.

Val:

Nope, Nope. I do the same thing. I caress the fabrics. You know? You know how you have paper on your desk? What do they call it? The over paper, the under paper. Yes. I have a lot of that with all kinds of paint and Jess all over it. And I, and I literally stroke that. Oh, I know, I know. If anybody had a camera on me, they think I was some kind of lunatic. Oh. Or pervert. I'm, you

Mama Judy:

know, something that isn't, I have a question, but I wanna check in with Jill. Yes. Do you have a question, Jill, before I launch?

Jill:

I do, actually, I have one and I also wanted to mention a quote, that kind of comes in with this. This is on Val's Instagram profile. You wrote, our issues are in our tissues. Amen. That, and I just thought, just think about that. How things that happen to us, hopefully good and bad, but you know, things that happen to us, it's at a cellular level. And so the, the idea that there are ways of healing through. Talk therapy, trauma therapy, whatever that do work. But when you were saying before how creating art is something like you'd never experienced in the human. Mm-hmm. It just came off of you and it's not through it. You do stitch words but it's not through, like talk through it or whatever. It's this magical thing that happens with the art. So I just thought that that was, someone might want to hear that our issues are in our tissues. Kinda like the body keeps the scores. This book that talks about how the

Val:

body Yes. That, yes. That was my first ever book that I read about Bessel VanDerKolk. Yes. It's become my, it's become my, my like second to my Bible. I mean, it's been thumbed through and earmarked and circle and all that, and I recommend that to everyone because that's how you start learning that, whoa, what's going on Me is real. Yes. Yep. It's valid. It's not just something I'm making up in my mind. Yeah, it's real. It really happened. And yeah, go ahead. And another good

Jill:

book, I don't know if you've read this one, but it's called, what Happened to You? Yeah, and it's a, it's a book by Dr. Bruce something and Oprah, and it's a conversation that they put together in this book and it talks about like, What happened to you? And a lot of it might be if, if you have a say, you have a kid acting out, it's not, this kid is bad and what they're doing is bad. It's like, what happened to you to make you elicit that sort of emotion or that reaction to something. It's also another fantastic book. It is. Question was, you had mentioned that you only recently, in the last few years had gotten into art. So, and I know that you said you were, a jock before that, tomboy so literally no artistic, expression before the last few years. Is that correct? And then secondly, yeah. What was the moment that you decided that, that day, three years ago or whatever, what was it that you thought, I'm just gonna create something?

Val:

when I was still teaching, One of my colleagues had what was called a bullet journal. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. Writer Carol. So I researched that. My first ever was, was my first year, my first half of the year. My bullet journal was in pencil. Mm-hmm. And as bland and boring as possible. I was afraid. I was afraid. Mm-hmm. Then I started using gel pens. Then I started using stickers, and then I got on Instagram. And of course back then it was just following bullet journalists and somehow collage came into my posts and I was intrigued. So I started cutting out materials, you know, cutting out pictures and collaging, and then I, I see all these people are swapping like Jude and I had swapped, so I started swapping vintage papers and vintage la all of that. I just started putting stuff together and doing it. And then one day all of a sudden this, like these mixed media posts start showing up in my feed. And then after a year and a half, my daughter says, mom, did you know what that explore button is for? Like the search button? I said, no, what's that for? And she showed me and then I started, I just typed in, I don't know, painting, art, art, whatever. And all these mixed media things start coming up. I'm like, what is all that? So I started following mixed media art artists, and I started going to YouTube and doing some of the little tutorials and all. Mm. And pretty much, I've taken classes, I've taken some online classes, I've taken some live classes, and the rest is history. And here I sail off into my future a hard time saying, I love that phrase. I have a hard time saying I'm an artist. I say, I'm a creator. You are an

Mama Judy:

artist. Now do what I did. Stand in front of the mirror and repeat that until it's

Val:

an artist comfortable.

Mama Judy:

I am an artist.

Val:

Um, my partner and I just came back from the deland Museum, Delan a town next door to us. We just went in the museum to. Look at some of the new art that's in there. And I thought, maybe I am an artist cuz I, some of my stuff looks sort of like this. You

Mama Judy:

are an artist, but you know, thank you. And we talk about that in another episode. That is one of the hardest things that artists have to do is to say, I am an artist. Mm-hmm. But getting back to. Your journey, Val, thus far listening to you talk. I thought, oh my God. It's like a jigsaw puzzle.

Val:

You really, you have all these pieces of

Mama Judy:

who you are. Yeah. And you're taking that and you're making a new end product. But it is, it's like, A jigsaw puzzle. Well, this fits here. This doesn't fit here. This fits here. So you are creating, you are doing what I think is one of the most important things for a human being, and that is to reinvent yourself. And we all reinvent ourselves along the way, and you've just had some rather large challenges. To reinventing the authentic self, and that's what you're doing through art.

Val:

I agree with you, Judy, because the majority of my life, I didn't have much of a sense of self. Mm-hmm. Because of my early childhood trauma, the, the domestic abuse and my mom not accepting me, rejecting me from early on. And it's really only been in maybe the last year, year and a half that I've begun to develop a sense of self. I know. Isn't that crazy? I'm 68 years old. No. Yet. Yet. Now, I definitely could say to you when I create I, one of my hashtags that I use a lot of the time is create fearlessly. Oh, that's beautiful. While we were in the museum looking at the art, I saw something and I thought, I wanna try something like that. Mm-hmm. And, and I will try that now. And I think it's because my sense of self is strong enough now that I can say I can do that. I just have to gather my materials and just go for it. Your

Mama Judy:

sense of self is strong enough now that you trust it.

Val:

Yes. Yes. I like that. Yeah, we're all working

Mama Judy:

on that and AIDS really is irrelevant. Agree. The most important thing is we're the lucky ones in that we've been able to take this journey and Art has helped us. Move forward beyond where we were stuck. And like I said, on another, uh, episode, Jill and I talk about the way that we've been stuck at various parts of our lives and how, how art and creating with heart. Has moved us forward. Mm-hmm. Very good. Thank you. I can't tell you how much I appreciate you sharing your story.

Val:

Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate both of you reaching out to me and saying, Hey, well you do this because I think it's important that our audiences really understand. You don't have to hide. Behind your trauma. You don't have to hide behind your pain. You can reach out here on Instagram, on Facebook, on wherever you are, and there are other people that are right there with you, and that the art that you do really is cathartic and really does help to release so much inner turmoil and pain. It does, at least it has in my case.

Mama Judy:

Well, it has in mind in Jill's case too. Yes. And I think there are, like you just pointed out, Val, there are a lot of people in our visual and auditory audience that are sitting behind their own masks because we all wear them. And one thing I wanna touch on that you used the word safe in your discussion when you began art. You were, you're, you're safe in your art environment. You're safe in expressing those thoughts that never could come to the forefront. And I think that that's something also that you just alluded to on Instagram. Instagram I think is a pretty safe environment. To show our vulnerability vulnerabilities,

Val:

but one has to feel safe within themselves. Safe enough, yes. Within themselves to be vulnerable on a social media platform. That's, that's my humble opinion. I, it's a,

Mama Judy:

it's not a humble opinion. I agree. I remember one of the first, Jill was the one that got me onto Instagram. I had no clue. What Instagram was, no clue. And so she pushed me out there and I put the first post out there and I still remember going, oh my God. Do you think they'll like it? I mean, you just, you're putting yourself out there and there is some trepidation and fear, if you wanna use that word, because you're, you're doing something uncomfortable that you have not done before and you're showing. You're showing parts of yourself that maybe you didn't feel like you could

Val:

show before, or? I agree, and let me just go back to what I said in the beginning. When I first started putting posts out mm-hmm. I was just creating to post. Ah, and it wasn't until I started in B'S class. Started that journey and went back again the next year and then went to Colleen's a few summers ago that I honestly started to think this could be a way for me to work through my trauma, and now I just create to work through what's happening in life and I post if I want to. Does that make sense? Absolutely makes sense. And I, and I'm not saying, and I'm not saying cuz you know, a lot of people just post cuz it's fun and they're creative. That's great. That's wonderful. I think we all have our own reasons why we'll post on social media, why we create our, I'm not saying this is the only way, but this is my way. Yes. And it helps me to, to, to heal. And that's all that matters.

Jill:

Yes. And in a meta way of putting it, you're creating the journals that you're creating, but you're creating your entire Instagram account is like a journal of your journey. Oh,

Val:

oh yeah. That's good. I like imagine you could

Jill:

look up two years ago when you're, whenever you first started and think, wow, any of us, all three of us, anyone out out there could look and say, wow, where I remember where I was back then and how far I've come or how I've overcome some things and that sort

Mama Judy:

of thing. But, Thank you. Yes. And with your journey, Val, I mean, we all change a little bit over time in our style. Mm-hmm. But in your journey it's, it's exciting to think about. Three years from now, what will your art look

Val:

like? Oh, cause you know, it'll change. Oh, I've seen it's change. I've seen, I, I've gone back a few times, well, actually I've pulled out some of my old journals and I'm like, whoa, I did that. I did that. I can't do that anymore. Now I do this. You know, how fun. So I don't know what it'll look like three years from now, but isn't it exciting? Same with y'all. It's both of y'all. You might be somewhere totally different than what you're doing. Julie, you've already changed. You're, you're sewing now, you're, you're, you're, you're slow stitching now, right? Exactly. Yeah. I love it. And using collage she has Yes. And using collage. Great. Yeah. And

Jill:

another thing I was, just thinking about, you talked about how, you know, it's your process for helping healing the trauma by posting, and that's your intention now. That's what you're doing. But I know that that takes a lot of courage too. But I know there's a lot of people listening that. I just wanna make sure that we say, even if you don't have the courage that's where you go and you look at accounts like vowels, especially like you could look at Mama Judy or my account. you're not gonna see what we're talking about specifically today, where if you go to vowels. And look through some of these. I get chills when I look at Val's posts, when I see what she has created. When I can tell this woman is working through, she's doing some work, major inner work, and I'm not getting chills right now just even thinking about it, but so I. I would say that if you're a person listening right now that you don't, you're too scared to post or that seems too vulnerable, go to accounts like vowels or, or anything else that's inspirational for you, cuz you might get some great ideas. The fact that you told us about it being, you know, your, these objects from your mother or objects from your son, yes. Using those, I wouldn't have thought about that, but that is a very powerful way to work through something and, and like you said, gee, you just gotta try something and see what feels good to your soul. Mm-hmm.

Val:

Yeah, what, what, what feels good to your soul? What, what's healing you? You know what's healing for you? And sometimes I don't even know it until I'm finished a page and I look at it, I put it aside, and then I go back and I start flipping through and I'm like, yeah, this, this, this is really cathartic for me. This is really good. I feel so much lighter today, you know, based on what I'm seeing. So, Yeah. And, and the o yeah. You

Jill:

go, you go Mama

Mama Judy:

Judy, just real quickly, we used the word, um, in, when we started this podcast for people about triggers. The other thing I know in my experience early on in an another form of art, I would do something and when I would go back, it would trigger an emotion. So you have to be prepared, I think for sometimes those unexpected triggers and just let'em be and work through'em. But they will come up even with our art. Mm-hmm.

Val:

I agree. I agree. and let'em come up. Let'em come up. Yes. Sit with them for a while because. Sometimes in 20 seconds or 30 seconds or two minutes, it'll be gone or it'll dissipate. Yep. And you'll feel lighter like you explained. Yes, yes, yes. Instead of stuffing them, sit with it. And that's with any kind of emotion I think or feeling. If you just sit with it for a while, it'll dissipate. Hmm,

Jill:

I remember, value, I mentioned you've used a lot of words throughout, your creations, empowering words, healing words, things that are meaningful to you. And I know Mama Judy made me a journal a few years ago before I started some pretty intense therapy. And Mama Judy, I can't remember the words right now, but, The cover, it was all about, this is about your healing journey. She didn't even know what I was gonna use it for. But all I do is after my therapy sessions is write notes in this journal. But also the fact that some of the words that she just happened to put in there, she didn't know what I was gonna use it for, but the words safe, this is your place, the, that kind of thing. So almost to an idea could be if somebody is thinking, um, Where you're working through some hard stuff is to surround whatever it is with some safe words that you're claiming this is a safe place. Mm-hmm. Whether it's a word within a journal or a word at your D desk where you're sitting or something. Cuz that has been helpful to me anyway.

Val:

Yep. One line that I recall that, um, Colleen Atari uses a lot in her workshops. You have everything you need inside of you already. And it's, in my words to that are, it just takes courage to find it and use it and put it to good use, you know? Mm-hmm. It's hard to work through your crap in your trauma and all that's happened. Cause I, like you said earlier, Judy, everybody has something. Mm-hmm. Everybody pulls their little red wagon. Some people wanna delve, some people don't. It's not a right or a wrong or a good or a bad. It just is. It just is. It just is. And it was my time to delve and to heal, and I'm very grateful that I found the art and that I can do create, I can create. And that it has helped me in the ways that it has. I'm very grateful for that. Um, has it been for you all out there on Instagram? I may never have found this, this outlet.

Mama Judy:

That's fantastic.

Val:

It is. Thank you. Thank you for having me. This has been a wonderful experience.

Mama Judy:

Thank you for saying Karen. Yes, yes, yes. Thank you.

Jill:

We appreciate you so much. Well, Val, thank you. And we will see you on Instagram.

Val:

Well see you on Instagram. Okay. And we hope

Jill:

to see you again in person. Maybe one day. Who knows what's to happen. I'm trying to get Mama Judy over to the East Coast for a visit,

Val:

so, yeah. Well, I, when she comes, when she comes. Right when she comes. When she comes, if you let me know, I'll fly up to Asheville and hang out with y'all. Okay? Okay. It's a date.

Jill:

Right. Okay. Love it. Well, and thank you for our listeners. We appreciate you listening so much. And, if you have any questions or thoughts about this for. Any of us, just pass'em along, you know how to pass'em along. And Val, I'm going to put your Instagram handle in the show notes and website and all the different places. So please go check out her account. You're going to be blessed by that, right? And thank you. See you ladies. All right. Take care. Bye

Val:

bye-Bye.