The Mama Judy and Jill Podcast

Episode 16: The Perfection Trap: Why Seeking Perfection in Your Art Can Hold You Back

• Jill Gottenstrater • Episode 16

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In this episode, Mama Judy and I (Jill) are diving deep into the challenges of perfectionism in the realm of creativity. If you’ve struggled with perfectionism, you know it can take serious hold of your creativity and imagination – acting like a brake – stripping away the joy, spontaneity, and natural flow that fuels the artistic spirit.

We talk about the fact that true growth in any art form is a journey, and reaching a point of perceived perfection leaves no room for evolution.

We also touch on the difference between the healthy pursuit of excellence and the stifling weight of setting impossibly high standards, and what that looks like.

And for anyone really struggling with this mental block, Mama Judy and I offer a challenge to you… one we hope will set you free from the constraints of perfectionism.

We hope you enjoy today’s chat!

A few of our past episodes mentioned in this episode: 

#11: How to Enrich Your Imagination to Fuel Your Creativity
#8: Art Can Heal Part 1 (Where Mama Judy and I share our stories)
#9: Art Can Heal Part 2: An Interview with Val Vaganek
#15: The Power of Commitment in Your Art Practice: Exploring Dedication, Balance, and Freedom


If you'd prefer to watch this podcast, you can find us over on our YouTube page (The Mama Judy & Jill Podcast).

We'd LOVE to hear from you! Click here to send us your thoughts and ideas for a future episode.

Send us a direct message on Instagram:
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>>Jill on Instagram


Jill:

well hi everyone welcome back and hi mama judy Hi, Jill. How are you? I'm doing wonderful. I wanted to jump right into our topic today. Mama Judy and I put out a survey asking you, the listeners, if there's any topics that you would like to have discussed. And we got a request from Liz. So Liz, thank you for sending this in on the topic of perfectionism. Thank

Mama Judy:

you.

Jill:

So we are diving into perfectionism today, but first of all, I wanted to just do a check in because I know you and I both have had some fun, times with our sons. Your son, who's in his 50s. My son, who's in his 20s. Recently, tell us about your time with Dave when you went searching for things.

Mama Judy:

Well, I love to do rust dyeing, on fabric and paper, and I love to use old wire in my journals. And I didn't have any with me because I'm not at home. So I coerced him, although it was very easy to do, to go down to an old barn close by. And we found all kinds of wire and items that I can use in upcoming journals. And it was so fun to have that support from a

Jill:

family member. Yes. And the picture you posted one on Instagram. I think you maybe texted me one too, but we're so good. They were just like artsy looking the photographs themselves.

Mama Judy:

Yeah, they were. I have to admit they were pretty good.

Jill:

They were pretty good. Well, good. And so let's just dive right in. Yes.

Mama Judy:

They were pretty good, but they weren't perfect. Oh,

Jill:

way to transition and meld everything in together. You are good. So I'm going to read I just wrote down a short definition of perfectionism for us to kind of start by so you tell me if you believe differently but I wrote down perfectionism is the pursuit of flawlessness. And it's when you set unrealistic expectations, you have fear of failure, and you are overwhelmed with critical self evaluation.

Mama Judy:

Absolutely. Everything, everything you said on that, I would have said myself. And perfectionism is something that at some level. In some degree, we all probably struggle with a little bit. And so, we have to acknowledge that it's something that's very common. But we're really talking about perfectionism. I think we are at the level that it inhibits your life or your growth in your art.

Jill:

And we see it ourselves, or you hear stories about this, how people are being stifled in their artistic expression because they're allowing perfectionism to take over to some degree.

Mama Judy:

If anybody listened to our podcast on trauma and pain and art, they will know from my background that I was married to an abusive man. Well, that also trickles down to the children, whether you realize it or not. And so, I have my, my one son, David, Is a perfectionist, and so I've read a lot on perfectionism in that it can come from an overcritical parent. You want to be perfect for that person. I'm not saying that's always the case, but I think a lot of what we deal with, Stems from childhood. And so perfectionism again is one of those things that if you can look at yourself and say, Yeah, I do harbor that need to be perfect and understand why it'll help release the negative effects of perfectionism. By the way, I'm not I'm not a perfect. I'm probably a little bit too loosey goosey. I could be a little more perfect.

Jill:

Yeah. Uh, yeah. I don't have that problem with art either. but tell me, has David, your son He is a very artistic person as well. Has he done anything to help himself overcome that Perfectionism. And if he has, what has that look like?

Mama Judy:

You know, I don't know. We've talked about it, of course, many times and he's aware of it. So I'm sure he is working on it. Uh, but it's pretty ingrained. and you know, the other thing is, I don't want to make it sound like everybody that. Strives for perfection is, suffering from something because there are personalities and I think partly, David's is also one wants things to be precise and, and perfect. So it's kind of a combo. But if I could just interject something about perfectionism and the seeking of flawlessness that comes from an example way outside of art, and that was in family therapy. for another family member and her therapist told her, do you realize that perfect because she thought perfectionism was a good thing. Perfectionism set you and everybody else up for failure. And to me, that's a really powerful statement on perfectionism and just like your definition, we're looking for flawless. Even Mother Nature is not flawless. And so when you are looking for perfectionism, you have such high goals. Probably, you're never going to be able to attain them. Every time you don't attain them, you set yourself up for failure and fed into the cycle of feeling bad about yourself, about your art, not being able to enjoy the process. Right. Because is that

Jill:

also because you are so focused, more focused on the outcome than the process? If you're striving for that perfection,

Mama Judy:

would you say? Yes, I would say you are. You're and and again, Jill, I like to differentiate that we're not talking about Wanting to get better and better in whatever you're pursuing we're talking about perfectionism that Sets those standards so high you can't reach them because that's debilitating to the artist, to the imagination, to just the human being, And so you can have high standards and, and work towards a goal. Notice my little fingers going up the ladder of the goal. But not to the point that when you don't achieve the goal, it ruins your day, it ruins how you view your art, it ruins how you look at your life. That's a type of perfectionism that often shows up that we want to move away from.

Jill:

Right, and another bad thing about striving for perfection is that in many cases it's going to block your creativity. It will actually block it. And so you think you're working towards this perfect scenario and then you become completely blocked because it's so stifling to you.

Mama Judy:

Yes, it really is. You think about the imagination and in the past we've talked about ways to enhance your imagination, use it. And that was all we always mentioned free flowing things. The imagination needs to be free flowing. And when you start saying to it at the beginning, this has to be perfect. Well, it's like putting the brakes on. Right. Just like, you know, you've taken all the spontaneity away. You've taken the

Jill:

fun away. Right. And another thing, striving for perfection does is it slows the entire process down. So if you keep going back to make sure it's perfect and you keep going back, you're never going to finish something. And it's nice to finish something when you finish a journal or I finish a little stitch piece. It's fun to accomplish that and then move on to the next thing. But perfectionists get really slowed down in that process where they just keep going back to it, back to it, back to it. So Sometimes nothing gets accomplished because I wrote this quote down by Salvador Dali. Yes, he says, have no fear of perfection, you'll never reach it. Have no fear of perfection, you'll never reach it. That's

Mama Judy:

right, we won't. I'm going to continue to try to get better, but I'm not going to try to be perfect. Yes, yes. If it was possible to be perfect in your art, you have nowhere to go from that point on, there is no growth. Ooh, that's a good way to look at it. You don't. That's why all the exercises, the, the commitment that we talked about in one of the episodes, to show up to do it, to get better, to learn the techniques, to allow your imagination. free range. that's what it's all about. It's not making one perfect thing and then quitting because that's what would happen. Right. If you've reached the pinnacle, where else do

Jill:

you go? And how

Mama Judy:

boring would that be? Oh, it'd be so boring. There are even movies out there about, what it would be like if every day of your life was exactly the same way. Humans don't want that. Right. so how do you get rid of perfectionism? Do you have an idea? I have

Jill:

some thoughts. Well, the first thought that comes to mind for me is in my writing so professionally I'm a writer. And so, this has, I, I fixed it. I hope it doesn't come back again but I did fix it and it took a couple years to come up with this but I would begin working on projects and I just kept going back and going back because it wasn't right and I would rewrite this sentence and. Rearrange this wording And I would look at it maybe at the end of the day and go, okay, that feels really good. Come back to the next day, make more changes. And it, it just could have been an ongoing thing. Cause I kept feeling like it's got to be perfect and I can make it better. I thought I could make it better, which you can in some cases, but I realized that it was great when I got to a certain point and I just needed to stop. So what I do now is I have figured out what. You know, how much does this task take me to do generally? How much does this task take me to do? And I put myself on a timer. And if I'm going to take, you know, 10 hours total to write, something, I mark down the times I'm working. And then as I'm approaching that time, I'm realizing, all right, I'm about to wrap this up. And it's not going to be perfect, but it's going to be good because I put my best into it and moved on. So I think that is one thing that helps is to putting some sort of time constraints. I know that sounds constraining, but in some people need that.

Mama Judy:

Yes, because that focuses you. Oh God, I've only got 20 minutes to do this. So, but out of all that. the thing I liked the most that you said was you told yourself it's not perfect, but it's good enough. And when I say that, and I've done that in my art over the years. It's not perfect, but it's good enough. It's good enough for that point in time because I might go on at some later time and try to improve on that technique, But I'm giving myself permission to be imperfect, to be perfectly imperfect. Yes, we're all perfectly imperfect, in Japan and in the art and in the culture. They leave a crack to show that nothing is perfect. A lot of Native American cultures and their art, especially their beading, and we all know how fantastic the beading of a breastplate or a complete outfit was. They left one broken beat. Oh, wow. Because with the idea that nothing is perfect. And I love that. Allow yourself the freedom to leave a flaw in your work. Nobody will probably ever know that it's there or that you consider it a flaw. But you know, it's there, but you're giving yourself permission. You're acknowledging I'm okay. Having a little flaw when I was younger and I used to go to home at classes, which I don't even think they have anymore. You were always taught every stitch had to be exactly the same length. And I found that so constraining. And I would get to the point where I didn't care what the instructor was. In fact, I never got an A in Home Ec because my stitches weren't perfect. And if you think of the absurdity of trying to teach someone to be perfect, Every stitch must be exactly the same. Would you show up to that kind of a class if you knew that's what was required? I'm not. I want a little wonky in mine. I want a little humanness in my art. I want to know that yes, I've tried my best at this point, because remember everything's about a point in time. A year from now it might be totally different. But I'm okay with that right now. I don't have to be perfect.

Jill:

Right. And another thing to think about, you mentioned the wonky, you know, art or wonky stitches, is if you're prone to perfectionism, I wonder if this would work. If you decide I am prone to perfectionism. So I'm not, I, I'm going to try to do messy art. I'm going to actually put myself in the position where I'm committing myself to do messy art for a while, where, or intuitive art. Cause a lot of my stitching is intuitive and that is all about a long stitch, a short stitch, a little cross stitch here, a little knot is accidentally made. Go ahead and leave it. You just keep going and you do not pull the stitches out to fix anything. And so that would be a good exercise. It's a perfect

Mama Judy:

exercise on perfectionism. And in fact, I would challenge anybody out there that does have that problem. Try that. Maybe do a timer where you just give yourself 20 minutes. And you make the messiest art that you can and then walk away. Do not turn around and go back and say, Oh, but I have to fix this. I think personally and from what I've read. That a lot of perfectionism is about fear of failure, and, there probably isn't a human out there that at some point in their life hasn't had those thoughts about failing. And we have to know it's okay to fail once in a while too. That's how we learn. And so if you're a perfectionist, you are not allowing yourself to learn and grow. Well, speaking of

Jill:

perfectionism,

Mama Judy:

We are going to keep recording

Jill:

this podcast, even though we're mama Judy is right now, I'm hearing drills hammering. So if you're listening, we're going to embrace how perfectly imperfect we are. And if you hear the banging, just go with the flow, please. It's humorous.

Mama Judy:

That's right. Um, yes. Thank you, Jill. We bring imperfection to our perfect podcast.

Jill:

I think it's the perfect thing that happened. It is. It was encrypted. Trust us. It wasn't scripted. Well, and also I would like to read a quote from Brene Brown because, and this harkens back to episode eight and nine, which you mentioned before too, what we talked about how to use art is healing because she, she talks a little bit about how, what happens with your mental wellness. So let me just read this quote. So Brene Brown says, Understanding the difference between healthy striving and perfectionism is critical to laying down the shield and picking up your life. Research shows perfectionism hampers success. In fact, it's often the path to depression, anxiety, addiction, and life paralysis.

Mama Judy:

I, you know, I couldn't agree with her more from. What I've read in other books, what I have come across in people I know, um, I mentioned a family member that the therapist said you're setting yourself and everybody up for failure. Um, she has embraced imperfectionism, and it's brought. a sense of freedom in her life. It can do the same in our art, as we have already said. She used to think perfectionism was what you were supposed to be, and we're not. We're not perfect. In my family, as Jill knows, I'm considered a squiggle. Squiggles aren't perfect. They stop far short of that, but I love it because I don't worry about something being perfect. I don't want it to be perfect. I want to. Go back to what we said in one of our earlier podcasts can I constant and never ending improvement if I'm perfect, I can't improve right. And I think to just the self awareness piece like you mentioned earlier, especially if it was brought on by parental.

Jill:

criticism, that is something that's hard to get past. So this is where you're going to be a work in progress. If you're trying to become perfectly imperfect and perfect work in progress because it's not just like, okay, I just listened to the podcast episode. And we're good to go. I'm not going to be a perfectionist any longer. It's not that easy. So, I think it is a process. So we'd need to acknowledge that because there are going to be some people that had parents at very high levels of being, critical of them. And so they're going to need to be working through that. Okay,

Mama Judy:

if you're on YouTube, you know that I'm moving. I just wanted to get a little bit away from the noise. I was afraid it was interfering, so I moved away from it. Anyway, we are not perfect. Remember to leave a flaw in your you are less. It just means that like the rest of us,

Jill:

you're perfectly imperfect. also, one other exercise I thought, for someone that's thinking, okay, what else could I do besides doing intuitive art, just getting messy with it? You do something where you use your non dominant hand. Yeah. Draw a cat or a horse or something. And that is something that you're not going to be perfect with that, but to try drawing with your non dominant hands you're not going to put any sort of perfectionistic goals on that for sure, because you can't.

Mama Judy:

That is right. And it is a fun exercise. And what you might find if you try that enough is you find yourself feeling good about being

Jill:

Yes. Well, I hope this is helpful to someone. It's a journey people. It is, you know that and give yourself some grace as well. I think that's important. Don't beat yourself up and just keep creating and also being, I think in supportive community with other people that see the art for what it is. I can imagine some people showing a piece of art to someone that doesn't really appreciate art and maybe they would. Be critical of it or something like that. Well, then don't show it to those people. Keep it to yourself or share it with people that can appreciate it and love it for what it is in, that it's not perfect and it's not ever going to be.

Mama Judy:

You can share it with us. We love imperfect art. We love imperfect people. We do.

Jill:

All right, Mama Judy, I love you. This is fun.

Mama Judy:

Yes, it is great for my

Jill:

soul. Me too. All right. We'll talk to you next week.

Mama Judy:

All right. Love you. Love you everyone.

Jill:

Thanks for listening. Bye.