The Champion Within
This is a series with fascinating and inspiring people, and what it takes to be the best you can at whatever your endeavours may be.
We will learn from others as to how they have handled themselves in their own pursuits, and so that we can apply to ourselves.
We’ll talk about the necessary support and how important it is, to have the best and appropriate systems around us, so that we can be the best possible. We’ll discuss aspects of ourselves that we can all develop.
This is a show with inspiring people, including musicians, artists, athletes, medical specialists, business entrepreneurs and more…in the pursuit of excellence.
I’m Jason Agosta, a health professional and former athlete, and I'm fascinated in people’s stories, my own involves developing certain attributes over time, but also things that were not done well or were significantly missing.
Join me on The Champion Within in discovering that everybody has a story, and everybody has a message.
@the_championwithin
@jasonagosta
jason@ja-podiatry.com
The Champion Within
Ep.12 Chris Wardlaw: Art of Coaching, Athletics and Training Philosophy
For this episode, we’re thrilled to have Chris Wardlaw, a two-time Olympian, illustrious coach and a towering figure in the Australian sports world.
This isn't just an episode about running faster or jumping higher. Chris takes us on a deep dive into the world of athletics, making us understand the critical role of a coach, not just in shaping the athlete but in the process of becoming redundant over time, a testament to their success in upskilling their trainee. With Chris's anecdotes and wisdom, we unravel the importance of 'feeling' in training, and the concept of goal displacement.
But it's not all sports and no play. Chris reminds us of the need to strike a balance in life, even as an athlete, emphasizing a holistic approach to training, and preparing for life beyond sport. We also dissect the psyche of top athletes, the intricate roles of composure and confidence in their success, and how budding sportspeople can glean valuable lessons from the current crop of runners. So, whether you're an aspiring athlete or a sports enthusiast, you'd certainly enjoy our musings about Monas, Kerryn McCann, Deeks, and many more athletes who've left an indelible mark on Chris. So, lace up and come join us on this exciting journey of sweat, grit, and glory!
Hi there, I'm Jason Augusta, and welcome back to the Champion Within Show, where we speak to fascinating people with inspiring stories, and in this week's episode I speak to Chris Wardlaw. Chris has been a two-time Olympian, competing at both the 1976 Montreal and 1980 Moscow Olympic Games. He was a finalist in Montreal in the 10,000 metres, finishing 12th, and also ran the marathon in those games. Chris also went on to run the marathon at the 1980 Moscow Games and has run a 2-11 marathon. Chris Wardlaw has been one of the most significant people in athletics in Australia, both as an athlete but also as a coach, and I'm sure nearly every other coach and probably nearly every high level athlete has been influenced by Chris at some stage. You know, sometimes you just meet people who are just so together and make sense and are just so intelligent in their field. Well, he's definitely been one of those. Chris has been involved in government and education sectors, working in senior leadership roles and being a leader. He has also been head coach of the Australian track and field team at the Olympics in 2000. Chris has also been the coach of Craig Motrim, karen McCann and Steve Montagetti and was awarded the Australian Sports Medal in 2000. Most of all, he's been one of those most approachable and happiest of people to be associated with.
Speaker 1:We started this chat with Chris asking me about this show, before answering my questions and elaborating on his depth of experience and his take on what it takes to be the best you possibly can, chris Ward Law. This show has been something I've just been interested in a long time and I suppose the thing I can say is, after all these years, I'm just fascinated in people and people who are passionate and have fascinating stories. That's where all this comes from, and if we pass on tips or just ideals that we've grown up with or learned ourselves or hopefully, it helps to start yeah, okay, chris Ward. Best athlete you've ever seen, chris Ward, that's Dan Hard, probably Carlos Carlos, chris Ward. Really Okay, that's interesting, chris.
Speaker 2:Ward.
Speaker 1:I would have thought it would have been more than 1500 metres.
Speaker 2:Chris Ward. Well, are you going to ask me who my hero is? Well then, I'll check, chris.
Speaker 1:Ward. Well, are you going to hit me with your hero, chris Ward?
Speaker 2:Well, RW Clark is hugely important inspiration to me. Chris Ward why Chris Ward? Well, he came to Melbourne High when I was there. I was in year nine or early year ten and he came with Bob Shill after the Tokyo Olympics Assembly. He was a Melbourne High board and there's a statue there and he looked out at the audience and he said there's a rugby in this room. And I can be honest about that because I sat where you guys are and I took that to heart.
Speaker 1:Chris Ward oh yeah, so good. Chris Ward Staying forever. Anyway, chris Ward, that's so deep, isn't it? That's so cool. Can I ask you what age were you then? You were 15?.
Speaker 2:Chris Ward Well, I think 15,. Yeah, it would have been late year nine or early year ten. It was when he was out here. Member. Channel 7 and the Glen Huttley guys did all those TV programs for live television where Clarky raced. You're probably too young to remember them in the mid-60s. So it was part of those and I was.
Speaker 1:Chris Ward, but it's an important thing though, isn't it? You come across someone, or something happens to you that just runs so deep and resonates, and you carry that to this day. It doesn't happen often, I don't think.
Speaker 2:Chris Ward. No, no, just always remember. Whenever I run down towards Kamau Park, I always try and run into the school near the oval there and have a little bit of a statue.
Speaker 1:Chris Ward. Yeah, that's so cool. We were talking last week about, as a young athlete, if you come across people like, say, ron Clark or you had the opportunity to sit in the stand and be a spectator at the Olympics or world titles level how that would change your perception, I think, of who you are and how you handle yourself, but give you a vision, and he probably gave you a vision of what you wanted to do with yourself, I assume.
Speaker 2:Chris Ward. Yeah, I don't know what the vision was, but I love running and I was sort of choosing between running and swimming at the time. I don't know, I was tuned down somewhat, but I was a back striker and I remember our PE teacher or sports coach accompanied me with his name and I basically said, wardlock, swimming on athletics, make a decision. And he knew I was an athletics coach.
Speaker 1:Chris Ward. Whether it gives you a vision or not, it probably sets off some sort of passion that I'm going to be the best I can be because he's this bloke in front of me who's just like tearing the world apart. I remember sitting in the stands at Sydney and my one thought through that first week or the second week with the athletics was imagine sitting here as a young guy when you were 18 and how that would change your whole mindset and drive and, I suppose, a vision to be next level. It's going to be so caught up in your own little world. That's my one takeaway from Sydney at least, anyway, and it sounds like that was similar to you at that moment, chris Ward.
Speaker 2:I think most people who get into a high performance sort of environment and support system in the end can find some things that have inspired them into it. Now it's always retrospective, but at the time. Something obviously does get you started. Chris Ward, that's it.
Speaker 1:Next one is any words or do you have a mantra that you pass on to people that you're giving guidance to?
Speaker 2:Chris Ward. Well, probably a few words. I always ask an athlete if I can spell Olympics. I make them spell it, but I….
Speaker 1:Chris Ward. And then do you ask them can you spell Montreal?
Speaker 2:or Moscow. Chris Ward, yeah, that's right, but I look for a level of ambition, and that's stolen a bit from Clough that Clough and my coach. It's about people with ambition. But then you look for a bit of commitment to pursuing that ambition and then you look for a bit of…. The other word I ask to spell is discipline, and then try and describe discipline. Then I talk about a diary.
Speaker 1:So, famously.
Speaker 2:I gave Monor a diary, which was a bit of a shock to his system. It's a few words, but I just like to see people with a bit of ambition, a bit of commitment, a bit of dare to get things done and also, you can grow it. There's no doubt you can grow that.
Speaker 1:Chris Ward. Yeah, I think you're right. With the right guidance, you can, can't you? The seeds are there, chris Ward.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, there's no doubt. I mean it's got to come from within the team.
Speaker 2:But if you put the system around it and the field, you know a few important sort of mechanisms to help you be consistent and disciplined. It's amazing the improvement people can have. Yeah, it's just genuinely amazing. Yeah, and I've seen it in so many athletes you know, at much lower levels than being an Olympian, you know that have really got an extraordinary amount out of themselves through a bit of ambition and a bit of you know connect and a bit of discipline.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's it, isn't it? I mean, we've been. We were talking on this show last week about. Well, I had a chat with a friend of mine who's a bit cold water swimmer for five years, hasn't missed a day and we were just talking about how you can learn to extend your limits, no matter what seems so difficult. Those limits can be extended If you have the right mindset and systems around you. Put yourself in, like you said.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Absolutely true. And I tell the story of Deake. You know, Deake put together over two years of not once a day training, twice a day training.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:And people said, oh, jeep, it's, you know, didn't miss a day and he became world champion. Oh I did you know people need to understand the sort of level of? You know small fragments that get you to a larger picture.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, one of the things you've said in the past, when we talk about, you know, I suppose aspects of training and development, you did say in the past that always think about that one or two year program, always have, you know, always play the long game which is, you know, ideal. Well, it's what you have to do, yeah.
Speaker 2:Now, in any athlete that asked me to coach them, I often told them look, you know you gotta stick at it. I'm happy to you know after a couple of years if the improvement's not there to find another way or another coach for you. But you got it. You got to give it a real go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. A few weeks ago we spoke to I'm sure you enjoy this because I know you're lucky for you but Tony Shaw was on the show and he left us with three things. I don't know whether you heard it, but he said, without even prompting him, he said I'm going to leave you with three things. The first thing is you have to do not lose focus on who you are and where you want to go. The second thing is train really hard, but train super well. The third thing is, more importantly is develop some spirit. Yeah, Be a competitor and develop some spirit, which is, I think, probably the most forgotten one, which is what you're touching on.
Speaker 2:There's a lot fairly simple in high level achieve getting better but it's damn hard to execute. Yeah, it's the execution that's hard, that's why you need a model around you and support networks, Everything to help you get there. But if it's not coming from you, it's not going to happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because your role as a coach most often you may agree or disagree, but is breaking down the complexities and making them simple, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, keeping it simple In the end. I always argued that a good coach makes themselves redundant. I didn't want to make myself too redundant because I wanted to get over the series and get on the troops Be part of it. Yeah, be part of the story. But there's no doubt getting athletes to have a really good understanding of what they can do and what they can't do. We talk about feeling. I laugh about all the modern technology and everything the same, everything. I just reckon learning to feel in your training is pretty hard. Yeah, it's practiced. You've got to learn a lot about it.
Speaker 1:It takes time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it takes time.
Speaker 1:Patience. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So three years. One thing a coach should not lose focus on. You have touched on a couple there, but one thing yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:Well, this is where you can really get distracted. You know, you know the concept of goal displacement, yeah, so what happens is you know, a good runner puts the Olympics out there and then they displace it for three years. You know, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that, I'm going to do that, but I'm going to get ready to do what. I'm acting like a good coach, I'm going to get ready, I'm going to do it one minute. I'm going to let the other person say I'm going to be nervous, yeah, but I do think that you have to be where they put their exercise Feedback. My question about that? That I always use the example if you're not doing Sunday long run and you wanna be a good marathoner or at least one can be Saturday or whatever, but you gotta do the long run, it's a competition with gravity unless you do it you're never gonna be a great marathoner, and if you give up on it every second week, well, you'll get your reward, which won't be your highest level of performance.
Speaker 2:So the coach has to really be quite steely minded.
Speaker 2:And I've had a couple of major bouts with athletes about, no, there's too much gold displacement here. I just don't support it. You know I don't support it, that's good. And there's one you know story of Mono. He was gonna run up the realto or one of those buildings and was after he, you know, really zoomed, I think probably post-86 when the middle and when his first marathon medal, and you know he wanted to run up the realto and that for me was a moment I said, well, look, you can, you're gonna win it, you'll win two grand or whatever it was, but you gotta miss your Sunday run. You do that this time and you're gonna do it again and again, and again.
Speaker 2:And it wasn't about the realto up the stairs. It was about here's a moment when I have to say to him yeah, this is not the time to do it.
Speaker 1:The bigger goal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the bigger goals. Yeah, you've just come back. You've had a marvelous success. Three companies are all over you. You're gonna lose sight here unless you remember why we've got to this stage and you've got to this stage, mono being the champion. He is and was never, ever questioned. You know those sort of things and that's just something that I'm saying with Dave, all of them you know, and I'm sure it's the same with our current crop of really significant, we're having a bit of a rise actually.
Speaker 1:Oh my God let's touch on that because it's funny. I was on the bike this morning and I thought you know what these two girls, lyndon and Jess, women's 1500,. They are going to keep going. You know, four minutes was the standard now 358, 358, 357,. I thought you know one of them is just gonna bust through and go 356. I got home and I saw Lyndon I could run 356 and it was like 32 year old, just absolutely amazing.
Speaker 2:I know, and we got Abby, you know.
Speaker 1:Oh well, what a talent.
Speaker 2:And we got George, you know, and we got people behind them, you know. And in the men, you know Camys and these kids. You know young guys Spencer, little Adam and Stewie. You know Ollie and Stewie.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:We just got some real depth. It's fantastic to watch. So we thought we'd start a bit more in men's marathon, but that's another story.
Speaker 1:Yeah, All right, let's get back to you, though. What about your favorite sport other than running or athletics?
Speaker 2:I've become a real football fan, as in another world game. I love football. I loved everything that Matilda's did. I've been to the last two men's World Cup in Russia, playing together the next women's World Cup. It's a magnificent, beautiful game and I really love it. But I, Jason, I love all sport. I just love all sport. I've watched the four of them finals this weekend, even though I'm hating it because I'm less than supportive. So I just want young people to be in any sport. If they're engaged in it and they've got club or community behind them, it's fantastic for young people, whatever it is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly I think what we have done sales by being involved, and even now, after decades and decades, you still have the energy and the passion and you appreciate what goes into it, and we're also driven and hang on it so much.
Speaker 2:Yeah, now it's sport. Sport's just a wonderful, wonderful thing for young people.
Speaker 1:Here's one for you your best run and why.
Speaker 2:Well, I've had it. You'll laugh at it.
Speaker 2:No, my best run ever is, at Sandown, when I ran 17.33 seconds behind Clarke's record, but anyway my best run ever made the final at the Olympics in 76. In those days, mate, we had to run ahead on a final. It adds a bit to what's happening today, but anyway I got into the final. I finished 12. I didn't have a great quotient of talent. I thought I got a hell of a lot out of myself. I often say I'm the best performed, least talented, just to run out this country.
Speaker 1:Do you think that that was the big factor or the separating factor is you just knew how to go deep. That's what you're most out of yourself, as you said.
Speaker 2:Well, at the time, you know, if I knew what I knew now, I'd go out more, of course, but that's true everybody.
Speaker 2:But I thought I got to be a very, very, very good runner through really hardcore ambition and discipline and I often did my own run in 75 and 76 diaries to runners and I called them the Hitler diaries. Yeah, yeah, we trained really hard, you know, and people get a bit confused, I think you know we did a lot of slow running. Well, no, we did. We did a lot of easy jogging to get started, but, my God, anybody who ran with us, no, you know, we'd do an easy tamala on a Friday night and you know we'd be coming home really, really quickly. Yeah, anyway, not sure, always easily my highlight of my running career.
Speaker 1:Yeah, OK.
Speaker 2:But you know I've loved other things. I love winning the City of the Sur from the Beta Breakers, which you know I was going and did. I love that.
Speaker 1:Yeah right.
Speaker 2:I'm a big and mono in these guys. It's all I can hang my head on.
Speaker 1:Ok, so if we follow on from that, what about from a coaching perspective? Because you moved on and we know you've been, you know, the cornerstone of distance running coaching in the country forever. You've coached so many great athletes like Karen McCann and Moniz, as we know. So was there a particular event or moment that you thought, yes, this is just why I'm involved in this and we just absolutely nailed it Was there. You know those a couple of times where that sort of happened.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know whether it's a moment. It was interesting. I was almost always what I'd call a playing coach, you know, even though you know, with the path, you know, chloe was very influential with me, of course, and I learned a hell of a lot from Chloe.
Speaker 2:Chloe learned a hell of a lot from we you know, it's a lineage and I learned a hell of a lot from Dick Telfee and he from me. I assume you know we've had a really great cohort of coaches, absolutely. And you know, I think you know our current crop of coaches. You know Nick's, you know ran with us for a long time and I assume learned a lot from us, and you know the current younger coaches. I'd like to think that they've learned a lot as well and that we we've been. You know, if I was coaching now I'd be doing things you know, bit differently, obviously.
Speaker 1:Why do you say that, though? Why would you? Why do you say that you do things differently?
Speaker 2:I think I'd nail much more, for so-called one percent is and I learnt those as we went along. You know Mona, mona and Karen. You know I got them doing. You know specific gym work. I got them doing much but enough to help there, not get injured.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I learnt from my own experience injury is a great killer. That's it, you know. And so you know I learnt as I went from medicals. You know, in the medical profession, you know guys like yourself and all my physios back in the day, peter Bruce and so forth. Doctors you know Fuller and Bookner and Andrew and it you know the whole.
Speaker 2:What I learnt, though, I think, was that people could reach very, very high level. People underestimate what they can reach. One thing I learnt with Karen, which is, you know, I call myself an empirical coach I learnt from Karen that she could recover Better than the mean.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:So so I got a run in 180k a week and I'm not many, were you know and she ran an Australian record at 5k in training. Instead of doing quarters, she just did a 5,005 in 180 before the award, yeah, oh yeah, cause she just got so wonderfully fit.
Speaker 1:So it takes time to learn that, though I'm sure in that case it does take years to sort of get that, I suppose, that feeling of depth, of who you're dealing with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, absolutely. And you know both minor and Karen they were wonderfully coachable athletes, really wonderfully. And you know Karen died way too early for us. But you know I learned so much working with her. I learned so much working with her Better heap of other athletes, you know, at a high performance level. But I also you know I talk about Damian Cook. Yeah, you know who came from. Over four hours I think he did his first one and we got him down to 221. I always said he's the fastest hack in the history of the universe. Yeah, so cool yeah.
Speaker 1:I remember Damian.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you know I get a lot out of the improvement in those guys and people you know who reached, you know, very high levels.
Speaker 1:One thing that has happened to running, though being one of the most simple natural things that you and I can do and you know this as well as I and you know being an allied health that just walks in every day it's become so bloody complicated, yeah, and not positively super bloody negatively. You touched on this just a few minutes ago when you said, you know it was actually pretty simple, run a bit more of you know we talked about.
Speaker 1:Karen and that, and it's become so complicated and we both know that coaching has changed and there's much more to manage, like the 1% is, but there's the complexities of, you know, shoe companies or shoes or training or environment, and it seems that that really sort of has become heavy on the athlete. Yeah, instead of just like being so cool and relaxed, like some of the people you just mentioned, and doing the basics.
Speaker 2:Yeah, now look at that, right, it's over complicated. But I don't necessarily say, and this is where the coach has to, you know, be able to one pick it very, very quickly and easily. You know, I'm not anti-sports, science, anti-all, that you know. In fact I think it can help significantly. But you've got to put it in the context of you know, these people have got a little bit of life. You know, I cannot believe. You know, we draft young kids up to what they're doing every day and you know they go out there every day. God knows what they're doing every day, oh God, anyway it's just Don't get me started.
Speaker 1:You know, I was there for 23 years. I was like oh my God.
Speaker 2:It's just too much and we are losing sight of some pretty fundamental. So I often talk about, you know, the bit of core work that Karen and Mona did, which I didn't do, and the reason I wanted to do.
Speaker 2:It was because I thought it could help them handle their 182,000 KW. Yeah, so we did, and I got help in its design. You know people like Peter Fortune, peter Howley and you know help with very simple, but it was embedded in their training routine such that it didn't distract them from the fundamentals. Yeah, it got run a lot. You know it's basically a running sport and it'd be the same, if you know, if I was coaching a tennis player, which I couldn't. I'm sure a lot of it is about. You know the routine, where I'm gonna be on the court. You know where I go to, why I go to the net, why do I go to the net, why I don't go to the net. You know, yeah, it's a pretty fundamental thing. Yeah, and if you get distracted by, I always laugh, you know. I remember seeing a runner's world, the secret to success, B-Pollin. You know.
Speaker 1:And I knew something serious was here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah yeah. It's not that serious Now. B-pollin could be very useful, but I'm sure it's not gonna create an Olympic marathon.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if we talk about athlete development of the person, not the training or the runner, I'm talking about the person. Did you have anyone in your camp who ever tapped you on the shoulder and said, hey, rab, you know, maybe you should do things this way, maybe you should just, you know, up the ante a bit or chill out a bit, because it seems that one of the big things that's missing these days from the distractions and the complexities of coaching is that people forget about the person and it's like, okay, I can tell you what sessions to do and this is how you're working around, we're gonna have this plan and we're gonna have a goal to go, you know, ally, or whatever, but what about the bloody person in the middle?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, it seems to be a really missing part of development of the athlete, with developing the person, and I'm not sure whether you've had much to do or whether that was one of the things you were, you sort of saw yourself good at or involved in.
Speaker 2:Look, I yeah, because I'm an educator in the end and I always believed in you know I wanted the athlete to have their career and their life and you know I had, you know arguments with people, you know about what they needed to do and you know Khloé was fantastic on it. He talked about balance, you know, and family and everything that goes with it. If you haven't got some of that stuff worked out, you're not going to get there. So you know I do some executive coaching with some public servants and we've got a model about, you know, job, career and work-life balance. And they all come in talking about their job but we start saying, well, hang on, you're 45. You know you've got over 20 years. What capabilities are you working on for the job after, the job after, and what you get to? And then, have you got your work-life in balance or are you going to crash and burn and you might be able to do the job, and it's the same in high-performance sport.
Speaker 2:The crash and burn fact that is and sometimes we don't even know what's happening they disappear from the sport. This is where our performance has got to have that. We're talking about it. You know our more holistic model and I did back in 2000,. I was very, very fortunate to work with Ernst and Young when they did their Olympic athlete program and then I got Rod DeHarden and Karen and Julian Painter onto it and Rod DeHarden and Julian had their career started while they were focusing on their athletes and they were getting great support. And I think we're going to be doing far more in that area. You know a professional athlete, they can get a start on their financial planning. Yeah, seriously, they can never 30, 40 years talk to you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:And they've got to have. You can't not think about your whole life.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know what are you doing with your whole life.
Speaker 1:So what you're saying is I mean, it's not like you know, being a great distance runner or football, it's no different to the workplace. Is what you're saying in that you've just got to have that broad overview and balance. Yeah, yeah, it's so important.
Speaker 2:You become so obsessed with it, heaven forbid. You know you're an Achilles injury, away from not working it If you're not prepared, in your whole life. You know, I think that I do worry about the well-being of athletes. Yeah, you know, I really think it's a very significant growing issue because of the high, high levels of professionalism. But that day we would never have thought about not continuing our career.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It was just a given.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's a given Nowadays. There's almost this oh, do I really need to keep studying? Well, for God's sake, yes, you do, exactly, you do, yeah, and you might. You know, I love our couple of medical students at Budapest, mackenzie Little and Montague, both doing medicine. I just loved it. Yeah, and MacKenzie Little said, oh, if they can help me, probably the best thing is when I have to fly back to Europe. I'd love to be in front of the plane and I thought, well, that's what we should be doing. If that's what we need to keep doing, that's what society needs.
Speaker 1:That's an interesting thing, though, isn't it? Running is I always talk about running, you know is this drug, that's the drug of running that people get, and that passion just drives this progression or regression into obsession, and it's so tense and there's very small minded views, and they do just, you know, fall off the wayside, don't they? Yeah, and it's interesting right?
Speaker 2:You know I always obsess with running, there's no question about it. And you know you can't run 160 or have an 8k a week without you know a level of rest and obsession. And I can't go on. I'm too bugged, I'm too tired you know a weekend, you know Sunday afternoon. Sunday afternoon on the couch was just recovery. You know it's not a great message to send to your family.
Speaker 1:No, but it's exactly all your friends, if there's any left. But it's one of those things from coaching that you sort of have to break down, don't you? And have you, you know, done that in the past where you've had to break down that density or that obsessive sort of nature? And I will say, just before you answer, that I think many times we talk about this in a little bit of a negative context, but unless you have degrees of it, you don't have positive drive. I've spoken about that a lot and that positive drive just has to be harnessed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so from your end. I agree, and that's that initial thought about ambition. Yeah, you know ambition, they're not going to get anywhere, you know yeah, because it does require a big obsession and it does require a big unfortunate selfishness.
Speaker 1:Totally.
Speaker 2:But that's no reason why you can't be a good person.
Speaker 1:And balanced yeah.
Speaker 2:Balanced. You know, there's absolute and that's why I'm loving our girls, our, our Chakal and women, our women mental distance runners. They all seem to be supporting each other, even though when they get on the truck they must be trying to build each other's bus, you know, and that it was a bit like us back in the day. You know, scotty. Still, you know, I'm sure in the other day we will see each other for the rest of our lives and always connecting deep, you know, and day-chill, and you know we just it was a great atmosphere, even though we wanted to be each other. You know, yeah, the question about it, we were still in a cooperative model.
Speaker 1:What do you think separates the current women that we're seeing run around, like you know, consistently under you know 358 or four minutes or so, and now we've got three there and there's some others and one of them works with me who is just on that, you know progressive line. What do you think brings that all together at one particular point in time? Because we haven't seen this like for a long time where there's been a whole bunch.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's, it is the group effect and the camp effect, when you know, and it's in the literature, there's no doubt that people start seeing each other together.
Speaker 2:Even though they're in different places, they still meet a camp, they still meet in teams. They don't have to train together to be, you know, a group and they've got a shared ambition, you know, shared work ethic and it brings more and more people in. Yeah, once you see it, you can say well, I can do that. You know why can't I do that? This is why I like to send food Thanks to the Olympics and the Worlds, because we want people back here who are in year 10 or year 11. Yeah, look at Craig Motrim and say, look at that guy.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like Ollie Horley? Did you know they unashamedly say Motrim was. You know the inspiration? Well yeah, which is fantastic. And you know Motrim was back in the day. You know he was looking at Moner and these guys, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Well, it's like the two girls in the high jump, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, but together they're obviously going to get on really well. You know, good competitive juices they want to be. But you know really, yeah, we do tend to get groups, and that's a good thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the group I think is really powerful.
Speaker 1:One thing I've noticed with all of these people going around at the moment Ollie Horley, who you just mentioned, the three girls in the 15, the two girls in the high jump, particularly and I don't think this has coached very well at all. You might have a different view, but their level of composure to have some clarity to execute what you need to do, those girls or those women, they just tend to be absolutely next level and all like they are definitely there with that top level and it seems to me it's a real standout characteristic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, now, I agree. I often say I love listening to them. I use the term pitch perfect. You know they just, oh yeah, they're gnarling it. You know they are really gnarling it. I had a lovely chat to Lyndon Horley in Budapest and she's so reflective She'll be a leader you know yeah, for sure, so grounded. Yeah, so yeah, I think we're we are. It started really back in Rio. You know, with all of a sudden we're zoomed in middle distance.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm not quite as confident in men's long distance. Well, we didn't have a 10K runner, men and women, and I don't quite get that. Yeah, I don't understand why, but it doesn't matter, we're good. Yeah, we've got some fantastic. You know marathoners too. You know I'd hate to be a swiper for the women's marathon at the moment. It's very tough.
Speaker 1:Exactly, which is a good problem to have. Well then, there's another marathon coming up in Melbourne. There's a few stuff.
Speaker 1:you know they've really got their eyes on. You know, next year that's for sure. Yeah, and the reason why I brought that up and I often talk about this characteristics of composure, and you were talking about the tennis earlier and, as you know, with my involvement, I've seen so much where, unlike runners, they have a little bit more time when they're competing and they can get their shit together like in between points or in between seats.
Speaker 1:But the one thing that stood out to me with all the top players like Serena, maria and now Ribbikina they're my three standouts. They seem to be. When you meet them, there's this unbelievable composure and sentry and calmness, which is what they display in the court, but as soon as they step on the white line, they are going to absolutely knock your block off and it seemed like the best people in that field, really had the ability and we see it in the men's as well to step on the white line in the Olympic final, and I'm going to nail this.
Speaker 1:But beforehand they're so composed and that is one aspect that stands out with the current crop of runners that hopefully, as you mentioned earlier, the younger crew can look and learn a little bit, and parents and coaches, because it's so significant.
Speaker 2:No, it's true, and amongst our crew back in the day they stood out because it was calm under pressure, nothing fazed him. We've slid him to buttery and he just keep running away. He had a real intensity and calmness that I wish I had. Just that mono was very similar. Karen was just wonderful, so scented, as we say.
Speaker 1:But the world crossing Deeks is on the team, talking about being so relaxed, and I was just too tense and never had anyone tap me on the shoulder and say get your shit together. Anyway, I met world crossing. I walk into a lounge room or some bar one night. I was only a week out from this is New Chateau, switzerland. It's only a week out from the world champs. And here's Deeks up against the bar sinking beers.
Speaker 1:I walked in and I'm going oh my God, what's he doing? I can't believe this, and I was, so everything had to be uptight and perfect and tense and I was just wasting so much energy. It was just bullshit. And I went upstairs, I was laying in bed and I thinking, okay, how Deeks is sinking beers a week through all the world titles. What's going on? What am I doing? Then it just dawned on me something that this guy is so chilled out, he's so relaxed and chilled out, and then I'd watch him as soon as he did up his shoes, training. He was going to run over the top of you and racing was no different, and I learned so much from that.
Speaker 1:And I saw that in Monos as well, actually just so chilled out. You have to learn it.
Speaker 2:Yes, no-transcript. We've had moments with Mono, you know, with Anne Lord and I, who you know, who was on teams with us, and she did with Siziio, with Mono and everything, and Mono would always come in with the worst Achilles in the history of the universe. You know this is going to stop me you know, and really all at once was a comfort massage.
Speaker 1:Oh, at a moment. It's Sidney. I was sitting in the stands and the phone rings and it's Mono's listen mate. Someone told me you were in row K8 in the stadium, like Easter, whatever it was, I don't know. I'm standing. I said where are you? I'm staying right behind you. I've got a sore Achilles coming out, anyway. But it is interesting to talk about, although we're joking, that relaxed, characteristic and energy saving virtue is so important to coach along and execute what you need and you know.
Speaker 2:As a coach, you get to know the athlete, you know what they, what disturbs them and what doesn't, and you know the pressure cooker of standing on the line and it's the same in high performance art. You know it's exactly the same. Performance is really really scary. You do have to get yourself ready for it and understand what's going to happen, and you know we spend a lot of time. You know it's going to take us ages to get to the Olympic village. You just got to be ready for it, you know. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm 1991.
Speaker 2:You made the semi.
Speaker 1:This is Pat Scalow.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, you know, ran brilliantly in the heat to get through the scene and we're on a bus and the bloody Tokyo traffic was a nightmare and I started to panic. And Scam's reading a book and he looks around he says oh, the cell is on the bus, they're not going to run without him.
Speaker 1:So it was more relaxing, it was just chilled out. Yeah, exactly, but what you're what you just touched on then is practicing handling yourself on the white line, isn't it? Because you walk out onto the white line at the Olympics, as you know, in Montreal, moscow, no one's holding your hand. You've got to have the composure and the know how.
Speaker 2:You know you do little things like you read back to training, you know, the night before or two nights before. It gives you a lot of confidence. You know I've done all this. You know this is why I'm here. Yeah, I did this to make the team. I qualified here and you can teach yourself worthiness in a way. This is why you're on the line.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You work really hard to get here. Put it all out. What are you training now? But it's easy to say it is. You know you do have to practice it and that's why we have state championships and national championships and Diamond League and you know it's part of the growth and why we do things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. How do you explain the enormity of that? I mean, it's like when you went to the first the the, when you ran into the Olympics, when you ran your first event at Montreal. If you think back, if you had that time again, you might have done things a little bit differently maybe, but what an experience to be able to stand on the white line at that level in preparation of the next year and the next four years.
Speaker 2:Yeah, now, it's true, and that's how you mind growth. You know, I went from making the fit trying to get into the first hunger, but cross country, cross country, you know. And then, oh, from there, oh God, I could qualify for the Olympics.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm glad that you got it is a step, that's it.
Speaker 1:There's a balance there isn't there of not wasting time, but you know, as you mentioned, it just takes so long.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You, as I've said earlier, you've always mentioned about. You know, have that. You know big game plan or play the long game over a couple of years at least. Yeah, but you know, at the same time you just don't want to waste an opportunity ever, which I think a lot of elite people do. They sort of become very elitist and very selective, yeah, yeah, Just like running through the season or you know, and they never seem to reach their potential.
Speaker 2:It's like I W Clark you just raised.
Speaker 1:He's just ran continually, exactly. Yeah Well, I have to say that Ron Clark, as I grew up he was my hero for sure. I couldn't believe what a guy could do on cinders and how he continually not just you know the the times he ran, but continually just was at an all time level and just kept going, and kept going, and kept going. And yeah, well, it's beautiful to share this time with you because we never have this chat and we share our same hero. So that's one thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And we could talk all night about whatever we could do with training and running. And yeah, we could finish off just with one thing Did you have a favorite moment at Budapest at the recent world titles?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, again, it was not, it was. It was a really brilliant world. I love bowl. Getting up in the four by four relay, yeah, because she'd had such a. I love the way she gets out and races and runs and so that was significant. I keep yagin, oh wow, yeah, oh God.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, it's extraordinary though.
Speaker 2:Yeah, extraordinary, and I'm a huge fan of Al Bacardi and the steeple, I just think. But I think he's worked hard, he's come, you know, he's progressed, progressed through over a number of years now to be dominant, yeah, and I think he's a, you know.
Speaker 1:I think everyone else expects him to be dominant and run over the top of the line. You can almost see it.
Speaker 2:They see that he's like the man, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think you're right. I think he's taken a long time to get there and now you know there's showing those virtues of someone who's got that aura about them of being so elite.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So if I had to pick a moment I'd probably, but I did love the kid guy the night. I just knew that she was talking about it the other day, that she's got to be in the conversation as one of the greatest.
Speaker 1:You know what, sam, stands out to me. We haven't touched on this, or maybe in the determined bit you were talking about was some of these people. What separates them? They appear to be so desperate. You and I can stand on the line, but the one who's more desperate just gets there and gets the most out of himself. And keep you eye on those others. They just seem to be.
Speaker 2:They can go to a level that other people find.
Speaker 1:Exactly, there's the depth of wow, exactly, chris, thanks so much for joining me on Champion Within and really enjoyed this chat and I'm sure we'll catch up soon. But yeah, thank you so much for your time and I appreciate and I feel very privileged to have you on speaking with me, but I really appreciate our time over the years as well. Thank you.
Speaker 2:Thanks, Jason. I'm going for runs with you and a great conversation. Thanks for the chat.
Speaker 1:Thanks, mate. Thanks for listening to the Champion Within with Chris Wardlaw. Point is to take away have ambition, commitment, discipline and never displace your goal and play the long game in training. Check the show notes. You can follow and support the show through there and you can follow on Instagram at the underscore champion within. Thanks for listening and I'll meet you next week.
