The Champion Within
This is a series with fascinating and inspiring people, and what it takes to be the best you can at whatever your endeavours may be.
We will learn from others as to how they have handled themselves in their own pursuits, and so that we can apply to ourselves.
We’ll talk about the necessary support and how important it is, to have the best and appropriate systems around us, so that we can be the best possible. We’ll discuss aspects of ourselves that we can all develop.
This is a show with inspiring people, including musicians, artists, athletes, medical specialists, business entrepreneurs and more…in the pursuit of excellence.
I’m Jason Agosta, a health professional and former athlete, and I'm fascinated in people’s stories, my own involves developing certain attributes over time, but also things that were not done well or were significantly missing.
Join me on The Champion Within in discovering that everybody has a story, and everybody has a message.
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@jasonagosta
jason@ja-podiatry.com
The Champion Within
Ep.28 Steve Alessio: AFL Life & Beyond...Transitions, Team Culture & Inspiring Stories
Former AFL star Steve Alessio joins us for an eye-opening chat about his fascinating journey with the Essendon Football Club and beyond. Discover how Steve transitioned to be an AFL premiership player in 2000, and hear about his once-in-a-lifetime experience participating in the Sydney 2000 Olympic Games torch relay. Steve provides a unique perspective on the dramatic shift in AFL during the 90s from semi-professional to professional, sharing insights into how players and clubs navigated these changes.
Athlete transition is never simple, and Steve candidly discusses the challenges faced by sports professionals as they move beyond the field. We unravel the importance of athlete support programs and the role of collective bargaining in securing better benefits like study opportunities and time off. Through personal stories and reflections, Steve touches on the psychological and future-planning support that athletes receive, questioning if these programs truly prepare them for life after sports. The conversation underscores the need for comprehensive education and career planning for athletes, ensuring they have the tools to thrive in their post-sporting lives.
A strong team culture can make all the difference, and Steve reminisces about the unique environment at Essendon, where leadership and camaraderie were paramount. From anecdotes about running a pizza shop to celebrating the achievements of Netball star Liz Watson, we explore the importance of a well-rounded life. We highlight how Essendon nurtured young talent with humor and discipline, and how seizing opportunities led to unexpected success. Together, we celebrate the extraordinary skills of footy legends like Mark Mercuri and Gary Ablett, leaving listeners with a renewed appreciation for the game and the remarkable individuals who define it.
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@dingaling8
Hi there and welcome back to the Champion Within podcast where we speak with interesting people with fascinating stories. I'm Jason Agosta and been a little off air over the last few weeks, but we are back on and I have a great episode for you today, talking to Steve Alessio. Over my time as an allied health practitioner, I assisted the Essendon Football Club here in Melbourne, australia, for 23 years and it's fair to say that I saw a few ups and downs over those years, but through the 90s and leading into Essendon's 2000 Premiership, I witnessed the harnessing of discipline and professionalism at its best within a team, and one of those players who was the centrepiece as the ruckman, was Steve Alessio. Steve is now 52 years of age and made his debut with Essendon playing Carlton in 1992. He finished playing 184 games and was part of the club's 2000 premiership team. He was reportedly recruited after walking into the clubhouse and asking for a trial. Instead of going through the normal player draft that most people usually get picked up through by any of the AFL clubs, he was given the number 27, guernsey, which has been made famous by Essendon's former champion Ruckman, simon Madden, and has been given to Ruckman ever since.
Speaker 1:After retiring from football, steve has worked for the Essendon Football Club in a variety of roles, including operations manager, ruck coach and corporate relations manager. He has also been involved in the AFL Players Association, contributing to athlete development, and now works in the finance industry. We chat about careers while playing sport and, most importantly, the transition once a sporting career has finished In 2023. Steve coached some burners to a premiership in an undefeated season and his son, luca, currently is coming through the Essendon ranks and, as I quickly found out, he also ran with the Olympic flame for the Sydney 2000 Olympic Games. Yeah, now, while I'm talking to you, sitting on your right shoulder is a poster behind you.
Speaker 2:That's not a poster, mate.
Speaker 1:That is the Olympic flame.
Speaker 3:That's authentic.
Speaker 1:That's authentic. Yeah, I can't see properly from here, but describe to me what you have there.
Speaker 3:So, that's the, so that's 2,000. Hold on, let me get this right. There you go 2,000?
Speaker 2:That's me holding the Olympic flame.
Speaker 1:So where did you run with the Olympic flame?
Speaker 2:Oh, I did the 10,000 metre. I was in Sydney, I didn't make it through the heats. Now this is. You remember how they had all the sponsors?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So I had Swatch as a sponsor. So every can you see that? Yeah, I can, yeah. So every sponsor got like three legs of the torch run yeah, so I had the Cougar leg, okay.
Speaker 2:Fantastic.
Speaker 3:So yeah, we were up Bell Street. So there's three of us. So it was me to Croft, to what's his name? Chris Grant. So we're all involved, with the lady called Lisa Martini who was there who was doing all that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so yeah we did all that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, great, great memory. It was good. Like I'm thinking, oh, this is fantastic, very nice, you know that type of stuff, you know yeah. But on the day mate, the people lining the. You know the torch run.
Speaker 3:Yeah, okay, we all got caught and it was people from all walks of life. It was a minibus. You had to meet at a certain point. There was like 20 of us. Then we all got dropped off to the starting point. This is your segment. And then the bus dropped you segments, so you're waiting with the torch and mate.
Speaker 2:It got swept up in the whole thing. It was fantastic.
Speaker 1:That's olympic fever, isn't?
Speaker 2:it starts there 100 and lucky it was only 500 meters.
Speaker 1:Oh you're tapering for the 10k.
Speaker 2:That's what you were doing yeah, so that's a nice memory, that's fantastic.
Speaker 1:Now this leads me into what we spoke about the other day very briefly, and I made a joke about my God, the post-Olympic depression or slump, as a spectator, and we went on and we had a very quick discussion about, as an athlete, how there can be a real downtime and for some others there's this massive incentive because they've done more than they thought they probably could do and they've come away from it, like you know, thinking of one person like Lauren Ryan in the 10K she finished, you know, 13th and just took the bull by the horns, literally and leading the Olympic 10,000 metres final, yeah, and you know those people come away, and you know, with such a huge push and incentive. But there's others who you know you hope they're handled really well with that bit of a slump and I know some of the swimmers have spoken about it recently about, you know, time off. You know what am I going to do and it's a real transition period and I know you've been involved with the AFL players With regards to that post-career transition, yeah, 100%.
Speaker 3:I was very lucky. I played AFL 92 to 2003 and it was very much a transition, an era with a game transitioned from semi-professional to professional. So I got to see sort of through the mid and late 90s where the game changed, where I remember when at first sort of the expectation was to go professional, the club didn't even know what professional meant. We were hanging around, we got there early trained, had a block of training in the morning and then we were expected to stay around for two or three hours. And we're twiddling our thumbs for afternoon training.
Speaker 2:Oh right, we always used to train at 4 o'clock.
Speaker 1:So this is the transition from sort of being part-time to full-time. That's what you're saying. Yeah, 100%.
Speaker 3:So not even I think the clubs and coaches and performance coaches, strength and conditioning all understood what that sort of professional environment looked like. So our game evolved.
Speaker 1:And so I finished 03.
Speaker 3:I had studied all right through. I was very big on doing something outside of the game. Because my entry into AFL wasn't a traditional one, I walked in off the street.
Speaker 1:What do you mean? Describe that to me what?
Speaker 2:happened.
Speaker 3:Look, I was very fortunate. I played junior footy under 9s, 10s, 11s, 12s or whatever it was, and then opted out and played basketball. So the only footy I played was school footy, which was half a dozen games a year. So I had a very good mate, ross Napoli, who had an unfortunate accident. He's now in a wheelchair through football, but he was in the.
Speaker 3:We had the under-19s competition back then, so it was under-19s, reserve seniors back before that, the coach's league which I have now. So he was already playing in year 12. He was already good enough to be playing in the under-19s competition and we'd play our school footy together. He was a robo, I was a ruck. He goes mate, you should come down, you're just as good as these guys. And I said, no, he doesn't. What's that with? I said no, well, that I should come down, that I was just as good as some of the rucks there, and I thought he was just doing it because he wanted me to come and do some pre-season training with him and all that.
Speaker 3:So I had the bug. I thought you know what, I'll go back and play some local footy. So I'll go down and try my hand at a pre-season if they'd let me there. And we had a fantastic coach at the time. It was Ray Jordan, slug Jordan yeah, he's since passed, but a fantastic guy, really old school hard hardcore. I walked in that first night down at Cross Keys Oval and he said who are you? I said because you have to be invited at that time. You know the 70 or 80 of the best kids in the area in that zone still have the zone. He said who are you?
Speaker 2:I said I'm Rossi's mate. He said I could come down and he goes. What do you mean? He said I could come down and just train and he goes. You've got to be invited. I said well, he said it was all right.
Speaker 3:So he goes. Oh, he sort of grumbled, walked away and anyway. So I end up doing this. Start training, warm up, get through the first training drill, then the second training drill. It's like a kicking drill. Paul's going I hear his voice booming Rossi, come here.
Speaker 2:And I'm going I'm going to last seven minutes into my first training session. I'm going to get the minutes into my first training session. I'm going to get the flick here so I see him on the sideline talking, hands going and all that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I see my mate Ross jog back and he jogs back, gives me the mic. I go, what happened? He goes. No, he wants to know who you are and why. I was 6'5", 85 kilos at that stage. Right, he goes. He wants to know why this six foot five, 85 kilo bloke hasn't been identified through our zoning process and why you weren't invited and all that type of stuff, because I could still kick mark and I'll, you know, play football, basketball anyway. Um, I get to the end of training and they ask who you are, where do you live? And they open up the mailways, because we had the zone right. Where do you live? And they open up the Melways because we had the zone right.
Speaker 3:Where do you live? And they open up the old Melways and I said, yeah, it's Map 17. It's this street here. And there was a big black texter delineating the zones.
Speaker 2:Yeah, couldn't see my street because my street was under the texter where they'd drawn the boundary, and so they worked it out that I was within the Essendon boundary. One street over I would have been within the North Melbourne boundary zone.
Speaker 3:So from then on I was allowed to train, and that was walking in. That was 1990 and walked out in 2003. So I was very, very fortunate.
Speaker 2:So why I tell that story is… it's a great entry.
Speaker 3:Well, why I tell that story is I had no expectations of having a 14, 15 year career at eston for the club as a professional athlete.
Speaker 2:So each year it was sort of a bug I want to put another contract in front of me.
Speaker 3:Fantastic bonus, yeah so I always studied tertiary. You got me degree. I always worked where I could and stuff like that. And so, as I transitioned out, that was always the mentality around for professional athletes, especially footballers, is you should be doing something whilst you're playing, because it's a short career and you have to be prepared for that transition out. And what I found, and then subsequently, what we continued to prove when I worked at the Players Association, was by doing something, engaging in something outside of the sport. It actually helps you be a better athlete. It actually helps you when you're training. It helps you with your relationships, your connections, your community if you get injured, all that type of stuff, and you know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we've spoken about this on the show a few times about balance as an athlete, 100%, and that is balance in life and the best people tend to be able to, you know, grasp that and really nurture it. So do you think that because you came in at a time where it was sort of more part-time, you know training and sort of part-time in association with the club, that that sort of fostered that because you had to do something else? Yes, you had time on your hands.
Speaker 3:I think so, yeah, yeah, 100%. And the play wasn't great. Yeah, back in the early 90s. But the really early 90s was that and then mid-90s it started to change and, yeah, there's an argument for doubling down and going really deep into whatever you're doing and become a super expert in anything you do. But professional sport, by nature is you're fully. You can't not be fully committed. Yeah, you're fully engaged.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you can't not be fully committed.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you're fully engaged. Yeah, you can't survive. However, I think with sport, you need to have an eye on what life is like. It can be such a bubble, whether you're in a club environment talking about swimmers or athletes and stuff. They're on the track. It must be a lonely existence, say for an individual track athlete going down to the athletics track each day and training, and whether you're on your own or with one or two others, it must be. At least I had a list of 40 to 50 blokes, plus coaches and stuff. So the environment is pretty dynamic there every time you walk in and stuff like that, Whereas, especially with an individual athlete, it must be pretty tough. So having something other than your chosen sport is pretty important, I think.
Speaker 1:So the simple way to look at that also is you can't train all day.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I know.
Speaker 1:So what are you doing? Sitting around twiddling your thumbs for three hours? I mean, that's not really developing you as an athlete, is it?
Speaker 3:Well, probably at worst it may be creating more anxiety because you're thinking so much about your own body, how you're feeling reflecting on the training session. I've got this other training session coming up. All that probably works.
Speaker 1:Psycing up for the training session.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no crazy. Yeah, exactly Just being busy all day working on what your next career is and then just finishing at four and jumping in the car and getting to training is probably the best way to do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, is this what you did with the AFL Players Association?
Speaker 3:Yes, I was fortunate. I worked with the AFL in their group training arm, which once again was around careers and apprenticeships and traineeships for young people entering in the sporting industry. He did that for about 18 months. Then Brendan Gale had taken over the AFLPA, come in as CEO and recognised that there was a gap in the services that were being provided to players around this competition space. It had always been outsourced, but he he to his credit recognized the importance of it and decided to fund it in-house and therefore there was a few of us who came on board in this whole career transition, career development area and psychology support services as well, and from there we developed what's known today as the player development program. So a fantastic and I think in a sense it helped me with my own transition out of football as well.
Speaker 3:In what way Well learning more about the issues that an athlete can face in their transition, and when I'm learning that as I'm going along as an ex-footballer and then starting to have those conversations with ex-footballers who are coming out of the system, but then recognising those traits or those things in my own self, yeah, and then reflecting back and having conversations with my wife who says, yeah, who do you think you were this and that when you were playing?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and there's no doubt you were suffering from X and Z and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3:So it really helped me sort through and it was great.
Speaker 3:I spent nearly 10 years there and then we implemented the great thing about that. We were able to then go to collective bargaining, which is an important piece of the industry, the Players Association and the AFL and then enshrine a lot of those things for the betterment of the players within the collective bargaining agreement, ie a set day off a week so they can concentrate on something other than football, set times off at the end of the season, depending upon the ages and where they finish, and all that type of stuff and a whole raft of things around study benefits and all that type of stuff and a whole raft of things around study benefits and all that type of stuff. So it was a really, really good time. And we were able to then push it even further into what we call our alumni developed, the alumni network for players back in the 60s and 70s, 80s, who didn't have the benefit of all these programs. So then we were able to sort of cherry pick and start offering some of those to that cohort as well, which is great.
Speaker 1:So you've made me think that to get any leverage with this, as far as you know, educating the players and talking to them from a players' association standpoint you would have to go through the clubs. I'm assuming you have to deal with the clubs to get to the players.
Speaker 1:It gets negotiated with the AFL and then implementation is through clubs, correct, so how receptive are the clubs when we come through and we say, okay, jason, steve, we've got this plan of action. We really want to educate you young guys that it's important for your balance as an athlete, but, you know, think about the future and what you're going to do after you're playing. I mean, how receptive were the clubs with that? Because they want control of you as a full-time athlete 100% and I can understand that.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, to put it in perspective, if I'm a head coach and assistants and these days head coaches are upwards of a million bucks a year, contract, assistants two, three, four, $500,000 contracts they're going to want to get the best out of their players because it means hopefully they get an extension, all that type of stuff. So I can understand. There's a lot on the line. So any of these type of what they consider maybe distractions or things that aren't going in the direction they want from a football perspective, can be an issue.
Speaker 3:So the AFL-PA, in their wisdom, had negotiated in a block of one or two hours twice a year where we get in front of the players Effectively, they're representatives, they're you and me. So we used that time then to have those conversations with them around this type of stuff and the services that were available to them. But, yeah, like a really good example. And the players too and I don't blame the players because they're focused on wanting to be the best they can. So, yeah, some of them, especially early in their careers, would not realise or would not want to understand or have anything to do with. Mate, I'm a footballer, that's it At 18, 19.
Speaker 1:I'm going to be a footballer for 10, 12 years.
Speaker 3:The funny thing was we did this research a little research project on our own once and we presented all these facts and figures about players and the industry, how long they lasted. I think the average career at that stage was about 3.2, 3.3 years, right Three and a half years yeah.
Speaker 3:The turnover. When I was there, the turnover of players per year was 20%. So 850 players, 820 players out of the system each year. I think you sort of hovered around that, or a bit lower. So it's a fair turnover because it's mandated too, I think. Even if the club didn't want to get rid of some players, I think they still had to delist three. They could redraft them, but they still had to. So there was a constant turnover of players. So we talked about all this with the players and we had a little poll that we had with them. And then one of the questions was knowing what you know from all the facts and figures we presented, how long do you think your career typically may be? Yeah, it was like zero to two, two to five, five to seven ten, ten plus 98 of the kids that are in the room 10 plus years, when we said the average is three and a half.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but but on one hand, yeah, that's how they saw it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, 100, so they saw it. So they saw it and understood it three and a half years. But no, I'm going to play 10 plus years there. So that's the athlete mindset. So that's great. You know that you're going to give it everything and do it, but the reality is you're only going to be there three and a half years. So have a look at all this other stuff that you, stats-wise, you're going to come out at fourth and fifth year, be prepared.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay. So today if we talk about AFL, it seems like it's so professional. They've got all these full-time footballers there. Is it done well? Is that done well as far as the psychological backing, the support and the coaching of being balanced, and is it taught well that you need to be, you know, thinking about your future? You know after the years of playing, Because we get this perception that it's like super, like sharp and very well done and super professional. But is it done well?
Speaker 3:I've been out of it from the cold face for a little bit now, some time, but there's. I think you can always improve.
Speaker 2:We're dealing with human beings, yeah, so, as I said, that questionnaire was great for me because we provided the cold hard facts because they still said no, I'm playing 10 plus years yeah.
Speaker 3:So we're dealing with human beings and we're dealing with athletes, which is another cohort of human being who have a really different mindset and approach to a lot of different things. Yeah, so, um, I think the the industry does well, um, compared to to other professional sports, especially in Australia, yeah, especially, I know, in the US as well. I was lucky enough to go and do some research in the US across NFL, nba, mlb there, and the services that we offer and support even beats those sports overseas. Right, okay, but the argument is they're making so much money they should be able to perhaps put in place some of those things themselves. However, that creates a whole raft of other problems.
Speaker 1:There's so much money, they're going to be okay afterwards.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think the problem with the NFL at one stage was there was some stat where, you know, three years post an NFL football career, it was, like you know, upwards of 40%, 50% were bankrupt. Yeah, so they had no idea how to manage their money and all that type of stuff. So, and that's where having a good association, keeping their finger on the pulse, a good league, having their finger on the pulse, understanding the health of their athletes, is going to provide a better product on TV, is providing these support services. So I think as our game matures, as more money comes into the game, our athletes start earning more money. I think a little bit around that sort of financial education and advice is going to be really important because you know yourself in everyday life. If you've got your finances organised, you sort of understand where your career is going to go. Typically, you're healthy yourself, you're pretty, you know your family sort of set, you're pretty sorted, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, okay, it makes you perform better in the workplace or in the footy club or in the pool or whatever it may be, did that?
Speaker 1:happen for you back then or does it happen now? As far as guidance, because some of these young guys they come off a rookie list or whatever and from what I hear they end up being on two, three, 400,000 quite soon after.
Speaker 3:Yeah, correct, and they're young. I think the average now in AFL is 350 plus. So, yeah, we're talking CEO wages at a young age, so you would hope that they would be investing and making the most of it, understanding that it's finite. They've got a really short time doing some really good money. How do I maximise this for my career, For me individually? I was really lucky that I ended up when it came time to get an agent, when I finally realised maybe I should get someone to actually negotiate.
Speaker 2:I keep putting a contract in front of me. Maybe I should get someone to negotiate it for me.
Speaker 3:I just had this really sort of elder statesman accountant who was very rational and, yeah, we just focused on, yeah, property, as a good Italian does, and yeah, and that was my sort of focus outside. Let's see if I can set all that up there and then, yeah, go from there. So, yeah, so it's pretty good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's good. So I know you're. If we talk about what you're doing now, you're still coaching, aren't you? The junior teams?
Speaker 3:Yeah, football a bit like the mafia Once you think you're out they always get you back in. So it was look, I had my break from footy post AFL and sort of in and out. At different stages Kids come along lucky enough to have three beautiful boys and started coaching, started being involved in junior footy, as you do, yeah. But I sort of knew I didn't want to coach when they first started because I don't know about you, jackson. But trying to wrangle 30 or 25 under 10s 12, 14-year-olds, not my go.
Speaker 1:No chance.
Speaker 2:I just ended up being the runner, so I used to be the biggest runner in the league at the time and run around and just help them along and coach from that point of view.
Speaker 3:And then, yeah, started coaching a bit later on, once the boys got to about 16 or 18 years old. They're now senior coaching with the Vafa, st Bernard's in the Vafa, so it's great.
Speaker 1:Perfect. And during that time have you sort of been approached by many people about oh, what should we do here? And people wanting guidance about their youngster who's coming through the ranks and probably just knocking on the door of AFL?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's really. I've been coaching at senior level now for a couple of years and so you have these 18 to 23, 24-year-olds who potentially the window is still open for them if they want to play AFL. So, at amateur and local level, the next step up is through the VFL system and onto an AFL list. There are exceptions to the rule where AFL recruiters will see some talent at that level and say no, no, we can, actually you can skip that VFL level and come straight. We'll draft you in a mid-season draft or something like that. So, yeah, just helping to counsel players around what that best next step is if they've still got that fire, because a lot of them come out of that under-18 competition, don't get drafted and wonder what's next.
Speaker 3:Is my AFL dream still alive or not? Yeah, so I see that that's a big responsibility from my point of view and our club's point of view at St Bernard's is how can we provide still provide a platform at this level, local level, for them to showcase their talents? Because we all develop athletes, all develop at different times, later or early stage. So some of them may be later developers, yeah, and they may be playing their best football at 20 or 21,. But the way the system's set up, when you get draft, most draftees come into the system at 18. Yeah, Some, for whatever reason year 12, injury, whatever it is aren't emotionally there at the time. They just don't get drafted. So I think there's greater scope. I think clubs are starting to realise there's a lot of gyms still available in that talent to be in that VFL or state league level or amateur league level or local level.
Speaker 1:But the guidance sort of starts there, doesn't it? Yeah, it's like how are you going to be the best athlete you can be? It starts then. I mean I'm not sure what goes on before they actually get recruited to the AFL or even the VFL. But you'd like to think there's some guidance in place that, okay, right, you've got this talent, but we've really got to polish up X, y and Z and try and reach your potential.
Speaker 3:The ones that are more concerning for me, and see it as they come through junior ranks, they're touted at 14, 15 as a potential AFL draftee. So therefore, the kid doesn't apply himself or herself as much to their schooling and they're already thinking as a professional athlete at 14, 15, no, no, no, this is my, this is my trajectory um, I'll get drafted at 18 and then, for whatever reason, don't get drafted and have them put in uh, um, at school and stuff like that, and therefore don't have probably as good a job prospect as probably what they should have had because they yeah. So so it really does, as you said, it really does start as early as you can. Yeah, work on your game, work on your football, work on your skills, work on this type of stuff. But you can't be at the expense of you know your relationships, your schooling, you know your education, all that type of stuff, yeah.
Speaker 1:That goes back to what we were talking about developing the balanced athlete, and that starts with the parents obviously being educated about it. It's not great to be 100% at 15 or 16 and the coaches as well.
Speaker 3:Yeah, correct. Well, I don't think it's healthy for a young teenager just to be fully focused in that. They need to develop that broader relationship, the ability to connect broader relationships, and they're educated, all that type of stuff.
Speaker 1:I think it's really really good you know it's interesting we were just touching on the Olympics earlier and when you hear, you know they're really exceptional athletes. When you hear them speak, they, you know you can just tell they've developed themselves as a person, not just as an athlete, and they speak with some depth and, you know, very clear and very inspiring, yeah. And then there's others who you know are doing up their shoelace while they're being interviewed and it's like, oh, come on.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's funny, you see it. Once you understand it, you see it. Look, we all love personalities and stuff. I get a bit concerned when maybe they're too polished. Yes, maybe that's that part, but yeah, I think it's the depth. That's a really good word. You see that they've got already at their age, have some life experiences and they understand a bit of the broader knowledge. Look, I was very fortunate to have that experience during my career A lot of outside influences other than football.
Speaker 1:But you've always had something on the go outside the pizza shop. Whatever it was, there was always something going on. Please you brought that up.
Speaker 3:Well, that was my small. I viewed that as my small business education. Along with the Rocker brothers and a couple of Mark and Nicky, who were a brother and sister team, we ran a local pizza shop, decided to expand into Carlton and all that I said, mate, this is mate. It's going to be a great small business education. So yeah it taught me a lot. Yeah, it really taught me a lot.
Speaker 3:yeah, it really taught me a lot around how to run a school business and everything that comes along with it and staffing and stock all that type of stuff. So, yeah, just having that outside influence was really really good and good fun. Look, I've been lucky enough to do it. I've been lucky enough to see it in my niece. She's a fantastic. She's the captain of Australia at the Diamonds. Liz Watson in the Vixens captain played 10 years there and just to see her development right throughout her career very level-headed, but yeah, she's captain of Australia at Diamonds, done virtually everything in netball. She's a schoolteacher. She's been studying, still doing work placement. She's up on the Sunshine Coast now with the Lightning and you know I was speaking to her down the other night and yeah, she goes and just did the work placement local primary school the other day and yeah, still ticking off me hours and doing all that stuff, which is fantastic, yeah. So I'm very proud of what she's done, but very proud of what she's done, but very proud of the direction she's taken too.
Speaker 1:If we go back to the AFL and the young guys coming in, there's a bit of money flying around and, you know, at the end of the day it's a cross-section of the community, isn't it? You've got a group of guys of all different personalities and they're going to handle themselves in different ways. You know some are going to get around like a rock star and someone would be very composed. It's got to be so hard as a coach or just management, to just harness that team of you know personalities. It has to be. So you must have, you must have gone through some times where it was like everything was really good and you know the a game was on, especially with Essendon when you're in that time. But there must have been other times where it was like hang on, there's a few cracks around the edges.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's a really good point and I think that's where I think in England they call them. You know, the coach is the manager. Yeah, yes, when you talk about English football and good soccer. So I think, a connection and understanding. We're still people, we're still human beings, so how do you get the? We're not robots Sometimes. I think the strength and conditioning guys in sports teams.
Speaker 1:View them as robots.
Speaker 3:At times they're not. So I think developing that connection with each individual and understanding what makes them tick, what they do, where they've come from, what things influence them, how you can connect with them as a coach that's the part that I'm really enjoying now, as a senior coach.
Speaker 3:Even as a junior coach, you know my boys would always cringe. You know, because I'd try to connect with them with the. You know, whatever the fad was at the time, they'd be like Dad, you're just coming across creepy. You know, connect with them with whatever the fad was at the time.
Speaker 2:Dad, you're just coming across creepy, don't do it.
Speaker 3:Don't do it, but yeah, now at senior level, being able to chat to the boys and have that connection is, I think, what really is important develop those relationships. And I wasn't the best of players at Essendon when I played, but one thing I was actually pretty proud of was I was the best clubman for about six years out of my 10 or 11 there Perfect.
Speaker 3:And that's the. I enjoyed the eclectic group of blokes over there and how, just how to have fun on a day-to-day basis. So yeah, I remember Matthew Lloyd once were having his training session. It was a I don't training session, it was a different training session down at Gosher's Paddock. It was more of a promotional thing from the marketing department speakers blaring, fans come and have a look, and all that type of stuff and I just had no interest trading well or whatever, and I was just stuffing up the drill completely and all that, and Lloydy somehow he missed a couple of kicks and he's come in and copped the spray.
Speaker 3:The coach called it in. He's come in and copped the spray off the coach.
Speaker 2:And he's turned to me and he goes sis, can you just concentrate for once, Because you're stuffing up everything?
Speaker 3:But yeah, it's how it is you, we're all yeah that's good, we all treat it differently and yeah, I think that connection part with all the different players uh was great back then.
Speaker 1:But one thing I'm really enjoying through my coaching now yeah, so did you have a meant that sort of mentoring role when you're playing it, isn't it?
Speaker 3:I, I think, as you get older, certainly, yeah, yeah, the young blokes and seeing them come through. We had a very, very, as I think, most successful teams, a very clear idea about the culture that this team, how we, wanted to behave. Yes and so, as you said before you used the words, rock stars would come through. You'd see them come through. Yeah and so, as you said before you used the words, rock stars would come through. You'd see them come through on your first round draft or second round draft picking rocking, I know.
Speaker 2:I remember one I won't name.
Speaker 3:He come in and you know the property steward, the guy who manages all the gear at an AFL club. He's typically a pretty dour person because he's got to manage the stock levels, the socks, the footings.
Speaker 2:So usually the first word that comes out of their mouth is no.
Speaker 3:yeah, whenever you go and approach them for anything and they've got a big job to do, but we had one young fella come a bit of a rock star and demanded where are my new boots, where are my sunnies? And was sponsored by a mobile phone company. Where's my mobile phone?
Speaker 2:To his credit, the property steward at the time said hey, get a kick first, then the rest will come, and it was a fantastic thought and it wasn't coming from the players. This was coming from.
Speaker 3:Typically most people would consider, and this is, I don't know, it's not the nicest thing but someone who was in sort of the not the upper echelon of the football department, someone who's the worker of the football department down there. So you know that culture permeated through everyone from top to bottom. And for someone at the you know what we're talking about the lower end of the footy park and, as people would see it, enforcing that culture absolutely fantastic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've got to tell you I'd helped at a couple of other clubs professionally and then one of the guys who you played with had a couple of nasty fractures and they said can you come down and give us some help? So I go down, I walk into Essendon and I walk straight into Paul Barnard. I'm there for five minutes and I say to this guy who I had no idea who he was because I'm not the biggest footy follower, and I said to him mate, what, there's a different feel here, there's a different culture here. And he goes what are you doing here?
Speaker 1:I said I'm just here, you know, podiatrists helping out and stuff like that. And I said but I've been around a few clubs and I've walked in here and there's a totally different vibe. I said what is it that's going on? He said, see those junior guys over there. If they don't shape up within a couple of years, half of them, you know, won't be here. But if they don't toe the line from what us, as senior players, you know, put forward to them and try and mentor or nurture them, they are out or, you know, they won't last too long. He said, see those 10 guys. I guarantee after christmas only five of them will be here.
Speaker 1:But what he was telling me was you know, this is a time of yourself heart, damien hardwick, paul barnard, joe mercedi, gary o'donnell and, like you know, this is a time of yourself Hart, damien Hardwick, paul Barnard, joe Massidi, gary O'Donnell and I. You know there's a, there's a whole list of names, but there was a real, there's a real sense that we are such a cohesive unit and we want these guys to be part of the group and we want to help them and we want to teach them. And then I watched it all change very quickly, like maybe 10 years later and there was these distinct differences. But I'll never forget that vibe of walking in and it was like, yep, we're going to harness this and that's what Paul Barnard passed on.
Speaker 3:It's great to hear that from the outside, I suppose, but where?
Speaker 1:did that come from, though? Was that Kevin Sheedy, the coach at the time?
Speaker 3:Well, the coach typically has a lot to do with the mood and the culture of the club and the team, and also we had a great set of assistant coaches throughout our journey. A lot of them all went on to be senior coaches elsewhere. Of assistant coaches through our journey, a lot of them all went on to be senior coaches elsewhere. But, I think, a really strong cohort of senior players who weren't afraid to say this is how things are done here.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:But weren't also afraid to embrace the young guys. So it wasn't like we were talking down to the young guys and say no, no, no, you say you've got to do it and shut up. And when you've spoken to no, no, no, we would almost encourage the personality of the new guys coming through.
Speaker 3:That's what I was getting at yes, we would want to see what they're going to we want to see what you're going to give and bring to this group and if it's great and it's going to add, we'll amplify it, we'll help you. So I think that was the special nature of our time and I think most great teams. I think if they find whatever that essence is and they double down on it, they can extend their success period. And I think that was us. We had a lot of great people and, yeah, a lot of. I remember Tim Darcy saying the same thing. Tim Darcy was a fullback for Geelong for many, many years and he just came to Essendon for one year. I think it was a delisted Geelong. She's decided to get him and bring him in, as in she's wisdom, and Darcy loved it.
Speaker 2:He loved his last year at Essendon, yeah.
Speaker 3:Like you said, it was probably a whole different vibe to what he'd had at Geelong during that period.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:But yeah, it's a really good point you make and yeah, we just really enjoyed each other's company.
Speaker 1:Just quickly because I know your time's up. But I remember walking past Sheed's office and he yells out to me and goes Oi, who are you? I said I just come down to help the physios and the doctors, the foot and ankle stuff and boots and shoes. He goes, grab a seat. I sit down and he goes. So who are you and what are you doing? I'm having a quick spiel. I said so what do you actually do as the coach? Is it just strategy? What do you actually do? And he's leaned back in the chair and 45 minutes later I'm still sitting here and, realistically, you know this that it's very hard to get the time with someone like that and the players wouldn't have the time with that. And he just proceeded to tell me that no, I oversee the development of these guys and I want everything in place. And I just listened and it was absolutely fantastic. It blew my mind because I didn't expect it. Yeah, in that footy culture.
Speaker 3:No, 100%, and I think that was the beauty of Sheeds. Yeah, he's unexpected. He would never probably be, you know be what was expected of him. He would always have a different theme each week coming into every game. He'd always be thinking laterally. And I find myself now, when I'm trying to coach, trying to come from different directions, trying to provide and present something new to the players. You've got to keep them engaged. You've got to the players, Because you've got to keep them engaged. You've got to keep them engaged. You've got to keep them there. And I think, yeah, it does start from the senior coach implementing that culture and he enjoyed it. He loved having fun as well, so he loved having a laugh, even if it was at his own expense, which is great. That's good. And we all, and no one and that was the other thing about the group no one could be too precious because, yeah, we were all in it together.
Speaker 1:Yes, there never seemed to be like a superstar or someone who was unapproachable or never seemed to be that.
Speaker 3:Well, that was. If you became the unapproachable one, you were in a dangerous position in our group, so you, were the target of that. So we'd always have a bit of fun, and I think that's why it was such a special time during the year, of course, Absolutely yeah, and to see the distinct differences over the years was just that enjoyable and really enlightening as well.
Speaker 1:Hey, you've passed on that many messages, but one you have passed on from the start was your story about busting down the door in a different way to create that pathway to be an AFL player. Your entry to that was what you described as completely different to what you know people are going to be, you know, confronted with these days.
Speaker 3:But it shows that everyone is different and you can create, or you, you take up the opportunities that you, you know are presented I think the opportunity is a big one and I look back now and I'm just thankful, even though I had no intention of ever being right an afl player. I'm just thankful that when the opportunity came to train they said yep, you can train with us. I actually grabbed it with both hands. I finished year 12. I'd gone to work over summer in the factory in Hope Street, west Brunswick the old, where they used to make the chef factories and Westinghouse cookers on the factory lines.
Speaker 3:I'd do all that all day and then come to training in the afternoon and just work me butt off for that summer and gave myself the opportunity. I'm just wrapped, I grabbed it with both hands at that time and then, yeah, it provided me 14, 15 years of joy after that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, the opportunities just come in so fast. You have to snatch them, but you have to like, really, I suppose. Yeah, grab it like with both hands, as you said, but make it work 100% to see where you're going to go.
Speaker 3:And a couple of conversations I have with some of my players now is but what are you doing now to prepare yourself when that opportunity arises? So are you going to be fit enough, strong enough, smart enough that, when there is that little gap or window of opportunity, have you done the work prior, so when you do grab it, you can actually hold on to it as well? Yeah, that's it. Yeah, exactly so. It's good. I think that's why people love sport. So all different types, all different types at different times, at different moments.
Speaker 1:I think that's why we all love sport, yeah yeah, yeah, and especially with the footy and other teams as well, and the personalities, isn't it? It's just so diverse and it brings out so much. That's enjoyable.
Speaker 2:Well, look at you, jax, You're this Olympic runner.
Speaker 1:I never ran the.
Speaker 2:Olympics. And I'm this big, two-metre tall Italian from a conservative family, middle class, who had no idea about AFL. There we are chatting on a podcast.
Speaker 1:There you go. There we are Exactly Taking on the world, yeah.
Speaker 3:The connection mate. The connection is fantastic.
Speaker 1:Exactly I'm going to finish. Let's finish off with three quick ones the funniest thing that's happened around the club at Essendon or on the field.
Speaker 3:The funniest thing, jeez.
Speaker 2:There was quite a lot On the field, I think Mark McCurry and myself we always have a bit of a laugh.
Speaker 3:There was a game up in Sydney where he was right next to me, forward pocket. I was forward pocket. He was right next to me forward pocket. I was forward pocket. He was there in deep full forward line. His man elbows him in the guts because the ball's on the other side and runs off. Takes off. And I look at Merckx he's doubled over trying to get some breath. I said I'm going to do the right thing.
Speaker 2:I'm going to chase his man. Remember I'm 110 kilos, six foot eight. Merckx is the small fast, his opponent's even faster. So I chased this guy. I kept I'm not going to let this go. I chased him, I chased him, I chased him. I ended up in our back pocket, right, and I ended up laying a tackle on this guy. I was done for the next 20 minutes and I always remind him of that, of the sacrifice that I made for him in that moment on the game. He always appreciates it, I think.
Speaker 1:I hope he reciprocated sometime. Yeah, Was there a most difficult player for you? Someone who was very challenging on the field, like someone to come up against in the RAC?
Speaker 3:I would say most RAC men in my first three, four years of my career, because the game changed. When I started they were the big old-school RAC men who were, yeah, who would play that kick behind the play, and big, and I was, as I said to you before I started in 1990, 85 kilos, 6'5". I grew another three inches over another three years but I put on 25 kilos from 18 to 22. I went from 85 to 110 kilos just to be able to compete with these guys.
Speaker 3:So, every ruck, when I came up against every week for the first two or three years, was bigger, stronger. I just had to battle on that and finally when I got to that stage 110 kilos. I said finally I can at least sort of start competing a bit better and match them. So every one of those big guys we're talking Damien Marcus, justin Madden, scott Wynd, all these guys. And then the funny thing was mid-'90s, the advent of the athletic ruckman came into the game. So I had to strip. I had to play the rest of my career at 105.
Speaker 1:Well, that's the first thing I thought of was what happened to your mobility.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, I was big and strong. So, yeah, mobility probably wasn't the best but I was able to compete with those big guys. But I had to get lean and more mobile in the second half of my career to compete with the more athletic Ruckman.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Was there a best player that you've ever seen? Or even to this day, Do you have a best player that you've come across?
Speaker 3:Look the most I mentioned yeah, yeah, I mentioned Mark McCurry before. The most talented and skilled player ever at Essendon that I've seen go through and around other clubs and to see someone like Gary Adler senior, just a freak, just an absolute freak. And during the year during the 90s, wayne Carey was such a dominant force for North Melbourne Could turn a game very quickly but for him, teammate-wise, mark McCurry most skilled player on the park there.
Speaker 1:So many messages there. It's some kid listening to this, or some parent or you know like open their mind up a little bit, because we talk about this all the time. Develop yourself.
Speaker 3:Yeah, mate, I saw like I started 16s coaching with my oldest and it was a few of those kids who were, yeah, good potential, but had already doubled down on no, I'm going to be an AFL. Yeah, it goes nowhere, it goes nowhere, it goes nowhere. Yeah, really, you know you can see it a mile away. Yeah, yeah, exactly, it's not guaranteed for you, so you've got to keep working on all your other stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, look, I remember someone saying to me why are you going to study and do this course? You should be really focusing on your running. And it's like holy shit, one injury, yeah, Don't make a team. Adidas drops you as a sponsor and you're gone.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, it's harder for you guys. Yeah, at least if we, even if we made it in, we had guaranteed contracts, so you had a little bit of a buffer there, yeah, if you got in. But yeah, it's very much, very the professional athletes life, lifespan is very, very short, so you've got to do it.
Speaker 1:You've got to do it like I said, two blokes sitting on the couch yeah, cool the cigars, that's all. Yeah, that's it hey, thanks for joining me. I know you've got a lot to do on the outside of your footy coaching, but I really appreciate your time good to chat. Always great to chat with you and catch up and I appreciate your time.
Speaker 1:Mate coming on champion within no worries, mate appreciate it bye you can find more details of this episode in the show notes. You can follow and support this show as well through those show notes. The Champion Within is at the underscore champion within on Instagram. And before I finish up, I just want to mention that there is a group of cyclists, including a good friend of mine, guy Stringer, that are riding from Perth to Melbourne and have just entered Victoria. This is to raise awareness and promote mental health awareness and support. They're raising money through GoFundMe. The riders are Tim Allen, brent Loughrey, guy Stringer, ben Adam and Tony Lockett yes, former AFL star, tony Lockett to support and donate. Look up at BreakTheCycle underscore Perth to Melbourne. That's number two on Instagram and an amazing 3,500 kilometres will have been ridden by the time this group completes their journey across the country, finishing in the coming week. I'll try and speak with one of the writers for this show soon. Please check at BreakTheCycle underscore Perth to Melbourne. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned and I'll be with you again. Thank you.
