The Champion Within
This is a series with fascinating and inspiring people, and what it takes to be the best you can at whatever your endeavours may be.
We will learn from others as to how they have handled themselves in their own pursuits, and so that we can apply to ourselves.
We’ll talk about the necessary support and how important it is, to have the best and appropriate systems around us, so that we can be the best possible. We’ll discuss aspects of ourselves that we can all develop.
This is a show with inspiring people, including musicians, artists, athletes, medical specialists, business entrepreneurs and more…in the pursuit of excellence.
I’m Jason Agosta, a health professional and former athlete, and I'm fascinated in people’s stories, my own involves developing certain attributes over time, but also things that were not done well or were significantly missing.
Join me on The Champion Within in discovering that everybody has a story, and everybody has a message.
@the_championwithin
@jasonagosta
jason@ja-podiatry.com
The Champion Within
Ep.29 Patrick Miller: The Mystery and Mastery of an Orchestral Conductor
Explore the enigmatic world of orchestral conducting with our special guest, renowned maestro Patrick Miller. Discover how he transitioned from playing the double-bass, to mastering the art of conducting, learning to channel the vision of great composers through the delicate interplay of leadership and interpretation. With stories from his international career, Patrick shares the unique challenges and triumphs that come with leading both musical theatre and opera, revealing the nuanced differences that make each genre vibrant and distinctive.
Immerse yourself in the artistry and science behind conducting, as we unveil the misunderstood gestures and movements that communicate crucial musical cues to an orchestra. Patrick sheds light on the delicate balance between asserting one's interpretation and respecting the expertise of seasoned musicians, emphasizing the humility required to serve the composer’s intent above all else. From the legacy of legendary conductors to the personal anecdotes of quick-thinking on stage, this episode offers a heartfelt tribute to the collaborative spirit and unspoken communication that bring music to life.
Whether you're a seasoned musician or a curious listener, gain insights into the world of live orchestral performances and the unexpected challenges conductors face, like instrument failures and last-minute adjustments. Patrick shares captivating tales of his experiences, highlighting the vital role of trust and rapport between conductor and musicians, creating seamless and unforgettable performances. Join us for an in-depth journey into the rhythm, breath, and emotion that make conducting an extraordinary art form.
@patmillerconductor
@melbournegrammarschool
@melbourneyouthorchestras
www.anitacollinsmusic.com.au – author ‘The Music Advantage’
#anitacollinsmusic
@the_championwithin
@jasonagosta
@yikesville_shane_omara
@the.silversound
welcome back to the champion podcast. I'm jason agosta, speaking with fascinating people with inspiring stories for us all, and here we go delving into the weird and mysterious world of a music conductor with Patrick Miller. Yes, what exactly does a conductor do? He or she is the only musician that I know of that has their back to us for an entire performance. So what does being a conductor entail? Pat Miller completed a Master of Music in Conducting at the University of Melbourne before making his professional debut in 2006, leading the national tour of Carmen for Oz Opera. Pat furthered his training through the Symphony Australia Conductor Development Program and further at the Opera de Lyon in France, lyon in France. Pat was for many years chief conductor of the Australian International Opera Company and artistic director of Lyric Opera of Melbourne. Pat is committed to nurturing the next generation of musicians as well as their audience, working with Melbourne Youth Orchestras and Opera Scholars Australia and, since 2019, has been the director of Symphony Orchestra at Melbourne Grammar School. Patrick Miller.
Speaker 1:Thank you for taking the time and joining me.
Speaker 3:My privilege so the weird, mysterious world of the conductor. I mean, you know that 90% of people still think we're talking about trams, right?
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:Okay, yeah, that's where we're starting from.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, I actually didn't take it for a tram conductor or a train conductor anyway, so yeah, but I'm sure that's the first thing people think of. And I think, as we spoke about it a couple of weeks ago in all of my naivety and, you could say, ignorance in knowing a little of music, the obvious question is which one of my children asked me after seeing Symphony recently what's the conductor do? And it's like I know it's so multi-layered and so deep, and my answer to that was well, I mean, you know it's controlling everything that the music has. And I suppose my interesting thing was how do you become a conductor to begin with?
Speaker 3:Look, you've asked some very good questions. What the hell is it that we're doing and how do you become a conductor to begin with? Look, you've asked some very good questions. What the hell is it that we're doing and how do you get to become one? There's no short answer to either of those questions, but any of the answers that you come up with are pretty amazing, because every conductor is different and every pathway is different. Because every conductor is different and every pathway is different, it's not something you can sign on for. You know, as a VCE, you know preference university and, thank God, maybe let's start with what the job is.
Speaker 3:It's a bit like the word control, because in one sense, yes, that's what you have to do, but you're not really controlling. You're melding or shaping, right? I actually think the control side has usually come down from the composer. They're the ones who put the framework. The flute will play us a D at this point. It will last this long, right? I'm not controlling that, that's already been set. Right? I'm representing the composer, if you will, because usually they're dead so they can't do it for themselves To make sure that that happens, but that it happens in the right context with what on earth the other 50, 60, 90 people are doing at the same time. So, yeah, not control, because control implies you're putting your will over everything. Yes, yeah, I see what you're saying. Yeah, whereas I really think we're serving the wishes of a composer.
Speaker 3:I mean, that's how it started for the first. You know, at least sort of century that they existed. So it actually didn't really exist until, let's say, the Battle of Waterloo, you know, early 19th century, when orchestras started to get so big, that you know, early 19th century, when orchestras get started to get so big that, you know, the wheels started to fall off. Right, someone said, all right, you know, I will stand up and try and hold this schmuzzle together, and usually it was the composer because they were bringing their music to life. But the idea of a career conductor really only starts. It's almost a 20th century invention, when all those great composers you know dead white European males were dead and there were people usually they're students who look over the mantle going. Well, I learned this from my mentor. This is how he wanted it and I will help you into it. And from that evolves this new career path as a conductor. Yeah, it was really a 20th century thing. Right, it reached its end.
Speaker 3:Yeah, literally, if you looked at the span of the 20th century, these superconductors jet setting around the world in their own, in their own jets. That often they were piloting themselves, you know, with recording contracts, that would, you know, make pell jam. We like it. Yeah, it was an industry, but it really didn't last that long. But I to pull down very, very briefly. What are we doing? At the most simple level, you're marking time, you're going all right, this is where the beat is and you guys do what you need to do in relation to that right, what's on the page in front of you, but 90 people can't decide in a moment. We're going to play now. Yes, yeah, right. So they need that. They also need the bit at the other end of the book. You're going to stop now, okay, yeah, so it's like, you know, traffic, cop stuff.
Speaker 1:So you're giving guidance, really. I suppose that's a better word, isn't it? You're the person who guides the dynamic of loud and soft, or, I suppose, the rate or the timing. Yeah, is that a better way to put it?
Speaker 3:yeah, uh, if you're going to run it in a hierarchy, the timing comes first, right? Yeah, because that has to be. You know they cannot decide that for themselves. The volume stuff, yeah, you, uh, that's really sort of that's art, the artistic side of it. We're no idiots. Yeah, okay, you're there yet, mark. First step marking time, holding it together like on that horizontal timeline. Then the next thing, because you know they've got a lot of dots and a lot of things to do.
Speaker 3:At any given point, the conductor would, if someone's been sitting, resting or not playing for a long period, you would show them where they come in. So it's where they. This is how you fit in on the timeline at this point. Yeah, you've got it written in front of you. But look, you know there could be a lot going on. I will help you out with that.
Speaker 3:And that's if you're working in opera. That's what you do with singers, because they haven't got their music with them. Obviously, it's up on stage acting, so you're throwing cues at them to say, all right, this is where you come in. Yeah, all that bass level, horizontal stuff, the thing you were talking about, dynamics, the vertical is much more. Living in the moment is much more living in the moment. You know if someone is supposed to be playing very strongly but you can see that they're not, you're going to encourage them, kind of like a sports coach would in the moment. Right, okay, they know they've got to be playing loud at this point, but you can. Yeah, I like the word encourage rather than demand. Slightly segueing into how do you become a conductor, I remember a really, really wise Yoda-like teacher I had who said you can't force an orchestra to play well, but you can insist that they play in time and in tune and you will get an acceptable performance. But you can only inspire them to go beyond and make a good performance. Right, like you can't force, yeah.
Speaker 1:So what are those sort of nuances? Or I suppose when you said you can make a good performance, or it makes me think that you're you can change the score a little yes, I suppose you're not changing notes, you're not changing rhythms.
Speaker 3:What you're allowing it to do is breathe a little bit so you might, might allow it to flex a little bit so that it can become a bit more human, you might? The composers would have expected, if the performance was a bit boring and it wasn't going to get to the climax that it needed to, that you'd put your foot down a little more. And yeah so you would put your foot down a little more. And yeah, so you would ramp up the tempo a little bit to build some excitement in the moment. So you're shaping it. You're also and this is the thing we don't talk about enough every hall's going to be different. Yeah.
Speaker 3:So in one venue, like if you're playing in a at the convention center, the sound's going to be pretty dry and you're going to have to the players are going to have to work a lot harder to make a rich sound.
Speaker 3:You put the same piece of music with the same orchestra in a cathedral.
Speaker 3:You're going to have to do the reverse, and they're going to have to because the acoustic is so evident. So you're melt, you're listening to the room and seeing and tweaking in that moment to to make sure the solo clarinet or solo flute can be heard, that there's enough richness in the strings, that the double bass players are not on autopilot, because you really need the energy that they bring at this point. So at every moment it's like you have a blueprint of the music, which is the score, yeah just in front of you, which you often do but head, because the the book, is just a piece of paper with dots on it. You have an idea in your head of what the piece should sound like and you're comparing in every moment what's coming into your ears with what you think it should be and making a million micro tweaks to make it more like the composer intended, or the composer intended. It should be at this point, given all of these X factors that you need to take account. Of course, you're not actually thinking of any of that.
Speaker 1:No, but I'm listening to why you're speaking. There's obviously a very intimate understanding of the music, yeah, and you are giving guidance where it needs to. You know, come up or down, like you said, in a different facility or different um environment, it's going to sound different, yeah. So your intimate understanding you, you're actually almost, um, uh, being very analytical on the spot, absolutely Like quick decisions, quick gestures to the musicians, I'm assuming.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. You can't just know how. You know that the flute has to play a D here. You have to know why the flute is playing the D there, in the context of everything else, so that there is a purpose to it. Yeah, Just decide. All right, we're going to go faster. Okay.
Speaker 3:We're going to go a little faster tonight because you know this is a really dry acoustic. It's hard to build excitement in it. Yeah, we're going to have to, you know, just work a little bit harder, or the reverse. And when this happens, it's just sublime that someone, a member of the orchestra, a soloist flute, clarinet first, violin, first cello has a solo, and it's just so good that you just let them milk it a bit. Yeah, okay, and particularly with opera singers, if there's just a phrase we like, oh, yep, go for it. Yeah, everyone, you're just like, all right, you just sort of signal to everyone okay, we're just gonna slow down and enjoy this for a bit and everyone will you know, it's like it's.
Speaker 3:It's all working. Don't mess with it yeah and give them and encourage them to, to, to do that, and those moments, oh they're incredible.
Speaker 1:But how do you keep time with that? Then, if you let an instrument play longer than maybe what it's supposed to, you're adjusting things rapidly, obviously.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. There's a term called rubato, from theian rubare to steal, um, where literally the italians call that. When you, you flex this otherwise strict time in the moment for what you need, and it can be in either way, either faster or slower. I remember the same yoda teacher I had describing it like not like stealing like a normal thief, but in like a robin hood kind of way, that if you're gonna stretch you've gotta push like a rubber band, like what you take you've gotta give. Sure, that's what you're doing in this moment. The clarinet's like ah, I'm just gonna this note's sounding great well, and you the conductor will use usually to slow, you conduct bigger, everyone will see that the beat is slowing down and then when they're done, you roll back into it.
Speaker 1:Right. So if the musicians don't know that's happening, this is where you're like. You're the maestro giving the guidance, aren't you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, a moment like this. You would hope that the musicians will have their ears open and, yeah, there might be microseconds where it takes everyone a moment to switch in. Yeah, okay, often you've built this sort of thing into rehearsals. If I know there's a section that this sort of stuff might happen, I would in one rehearsal. I would just do it for the sake of it, just so that everyone knows hey, this is a potential option in there. Of course. I mean, that's the artistic side of it. Of course there's also the chaotic one, where somebody comes in a beat early, late, and you've got to spin the orchestra in in a nanosecond to back up with that and they're as sublime as the other ones are. Okay, it's terrifying. Right.
Speaker 3:But there have been nights when I've come out of the orchestra pit at an opera and gone wow, there were three and a half bars less of the show tonight Don't know where they are. It all worked. No one died. Well, actually, the main character died because it's opera, yeah, but you know, someone just jumped and every this is particularly the case with singers in operas because they're doing everything from memory and it all went on that someone just jumps a line like they would in a play, but most cases an opera orchestra will know the show so well that you know, given the sort of nodding head and gesticulating from the conductor saying we're going with that, everyone will jump.
Speaker 1:Right, okay.
Speaker 3:And like there's a few seconds of just a cut from the orchestra and then you're back in. Is that the beauty?
Speaker 1:of your job.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's incredible when that happens.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that dynamic sort of, I suppose, feel of the night where it can change, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:I think we were talking. You asked the difference when we were chatting previously, the difference between a music theatre conductor and an opera conductor, because on paper they're the same. You're in a theatre, there's a show going on, there's a story, there's musicians in the orchestra pit, everyone's wearing black, like it's the same. But the commercial music theatre and I'm thinking of things like Mamma Mia, book of Mormon or was it Beauty and the Beast has just opened here. Their purpose is to produce exactly the same product night after night, eight shows a week for months and months and months, and the audience are paying for a product, like if you were seeing a show but just transferred. Yeah, a lot of these shows are run by Disney and that's what they do. They make movies that are the same every time you go and see a film. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Okay, the opera conductor. However, you're expected to make it fresh and different every single night, because you also have a huge amount of variables a cast change, you know different musicians in the orchestra, or that there are actors up on stage who are living the moment differently each month, and you will flex around that. I remember the first time this occurred to me that this was actually my job, there was a Carmen opera and the singer had about, let's say, 45 seconds of music. That was their entrance music, before they even sang, and the orchestra sort of played music that set the scene. And one night the singer in question I saw her enter from the back of the stage and she was walking slower than normal. Yeah, and I went oh okay, I guess I better slow the music down to match that, and the whole mood of the aria that then followed it changed. And like no one taught me to do that, but I just realised it's my job to match what's happening on the stage with what's in the orchestra pit and it's been a flex like that.
Speaker 1:Right, so you're going to read the play and then, yeah, in a nanosecond, give that guidance. And this is where you say you use that beautiful word breathe. You're going to let the music breathe, and I suppose that's a great example, isn't it? Yeah, bring it to life and let it go and fit in with the opera.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's like I haven't done much ballet conducting but I have watched these astonishing things happen where there's been a solo for the ballerina and it's accompanied by particularly in the Tchaikovsky ballets like Swan Lake, sleeping Beauty, nutcracker a long extended solo for the first violin. And I remember watching from the audience and watching the first violin. He wasn't even looking at his music or actually the conductor, he was just watching the dancer so to be able to time everything he was doing with what the dancer was doing. And of course it created this incredibly seamless, musically miraculous experience. But it's knowing whether the hierarchy is that at the moment the lady on stage in the pointe shoes you know, a foot and a half in the air, like she's got a priority because we've got to look after her and make it so like you know how many crotchets or quavers or how long that note is supposed to be.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah is irrelevant. We've got to make that work and that's what keeps it fresh, knowing that every night it's there again. It's going to be different. You're going to have a different acoustic, a different audience. What the audience bring changes your mood. Some nights the house is ready to go off and you don't have to work so hard Some other nights when you're like, all right, especially in the matinees, like okay, we're going to have to ramp this one up a little bit. Or, at even more practical levels, you've got a singer or a soloist who's a bit under the weather, so all right, you can't, you're not going to get the the um, the grammy worthy version that night, but you've got. So I will just move on a little bit, a little bit longer to breathe.
Speaker 1:There's that word again so this is when I say the intimate understanding of the music, but you're sort of manipulating it and guiding it. You know the whole ensemble to fit. You know that, that dance or the opera at that time, but when we talk about that, you know depth of understanding of the music and what you actually do. So since we first met I've thought of you a lot and there's I know there's layers and layers and so much more to what you do. And when you touch on the history of the composers that you spoke of earlier, there is obviously so much to learn when you start your musical journey to where you are now. Yeah, and you seem like an incredibly young guy to be a conductor from when I think about the history of music and all the composers and what's been done over the centuries, how long and what have you done to get to this point? How did this all kick off? Yeah.
Speaker 3:Look, I'm still a rookie. Why do you say that? Well.
Speaker 1:I could.
Speaker 3:Always learning, obviously, always learning. And look, I hope, the way that I'm doing a symphony next week, that I did last year, 15 years ago, and I'm conducting it very differently now, because I'm a very different person now and my understanding of that composer's music is very different has matured and in 15 years' time I hope it's also different. Got it.
Speaker 3:Yeah. The crux of it, though, was somewhat crest-fallingly laid out to me in a masterclass in front of I think it was the Adelaide Symphony Orchestra, where the person taking the masterclass said to everyone in front of the orchestra now you've got to remember that you're conducting a piece of music now that most of these players have played more times than you even heard the piece, in fact, potentially more times than you've even had hot meals. And so you're like, yes, okay, and look if you. It's a really weird balance. You, you want, you you want to feel like you've got something to offer, but an orchestra will know straight away if you haven't, you know, done the work to warrant that. So how do you get there? I don't know. I didn't really have hobbies, sure.
Speaker 1:So I know you studied music at Melbourne. Yeah, so obviously there's a passion for music early on. So you studied music. What instruments did you play, or how are you playing?
Speaker 3:uh. So my journey, I started off um late for a musician. I started playing cello. Uh, about grade must be about grade four. Yeah, when I arrived at um, I moved to it from a state school to a private school and everyone played music and I thought I better do that. Then that progressed up to double bass when I got to senior school and I kept that going right through secondary school, my tertiary years, and that was my job until I was sort of early 20s. That's how I was earning my living.
Speaker 3:I got some terrific advice and again, I suppose this is the theme that keeps coming back. You know, people say, you know, it takes a village. It's really the case of a conductor. You, you've got a young conductor. You've you've got you've got so many people around you who to give you advice and you've just got to be willing to get your ego out of the way and listen to them. Um, and so this is where I suppose I've been lucky is when good advice has been profited. I've I've been able to recognize it and take it.
Speaker 3:Uh, so this particular bit of advice um was when I got to university and someone said oh, if you want to be a conductor? Um, which I did, and said master your instrument first. So rather than switching over too early, they said go on, just play your double bass. Play it everywhere you can, in every orchestra, every you know rubbish gig where you're going to spend more money at Mac than you are afterwards are on you know afterwards than you are actually at earn at the gig. So you learn the repertoire. But also, particularly, there's quite a lot of conductors that come from bass players, because you're sitting at a stool at the back or the side of the orchestra and you can watch everything going on. It's like being in stadium. Okay, you can watch the conductor, but you can see perfectly in profile. But you can see how they're communicating with everybody right, and you're also in charge of the rhythm yeah so that gives you an understanding of all right what.
Speaker 3:What does the conductor doing and how do I have to lock into that? I think that's still part of how I conduct. It's got to be rhythm first, right, okay, you can play the right note, but if it's at the wrong time, it's the wrong note. Yeah. I get it, so rhythm's got to come first.
Speaker 1:So, going back to I want to be a conductor. When did this happen? What inspired you, though? What actually made you think I want to be a conductor? When did this happen? What inspired you? What actually made you think I want to do that?
Speaker 3:If you ask my late mother, she would have said that I was conducting in utero. She was aware that any time there was music playing that I was always active and about, and as an infant time there was music playing that I was always active and about, and, as an infant, whenever there was music going, I'd be gesticulating or dancing. I should point out I can't dance, but there's something about something really weird about someone who spends their life with live music and moving and I am the worst dancer on the planet. It's just the hands and the baton.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Leave the feet on the planet, it's just the hands and the baton. Yeah, yeah, yeah, leave the feet on the floor. Leave your hips still, for god's sake. Uh, but I can. It evolved. I'm not actually aware of a point where I said this is the career path, but it became apparent, probably towards the end of my secondary schooling, when I started to play in orchestras outside of school. There's a wonderful program called Melbourne Youth Orchestras which brings kids together from schools all around Melbourne to play music on a Saturday morning. And discovering that there were other people who were like music, geeky, like me and uh, and love music, and were discovering these masterpieces, these towering masterpieces of the orchestral repertoire. Um, you know, it was like the gates were thrown open right, okay and I started to go to to operas, to concerts.
Speaker 3:So it happened really naturally but comparatively late. But I think I've been better for both of those things because it's been entirely my journey.
Speaker 1:Right. Do you think that the benefit of that is just being sort of being a more mature listener comes with that being a little later on the scene, taking more in? Like you said, you were sitting at the back of the orchestra playing your double bass but you're actually taking in the whole sort of you know performance yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3:Whereas if I, um, had picked another instrument you know when you, when you, when you're one way, you're so buried just playing the notes yeah, that certainly wouldn't have been possible. So, yeah, I got to university with this idea of wanting to be a conductor, despite never having actually done it. It's the weirdest career path, right, in that way, I can do that and like, but not knowing to do it, yeah, I did my undergraduate as a double bass player and I sang for a while. Um, I lived at college, at university, and sang for my supper, singing in the college chapel choir, and that was a great way to learn a, like, a work ethic. Yeah, okay, yeah, the music's not just you know, something that's nice and pretty that you do, but no, you've got to show up on time, you've got to be prepared, you've got to pull it out, no matter how you're feeling, what time of the day, like, there's a job to be done and you know this is what's paying your rent, kid, sure. So you know, suck it up and stop being such a brat undergraduate.
Speaker 3:But then, at the end of my time, the old Bachelor of Music at Melbourne, in the incredible Conservatorium building on Royal Parade, which they're not there anymore and I think the university is probably poorer for their loss, down to the incredible new building at Southbank. But the old degree used to have a conducting subject in the final year and this was the sort of the first time you know I'd sort of been let loose, I guess, and I did the, did the subject and got probably the best mark I'd ever got for anything and it was just like okay, this is the right path. And at the end of that year, at the end of my undergrad, um, I was, you know, didn't know whether I pursued postgrad on double bass or conducting, because you know I was earning money as a bass player and I worked hard and got pretty good at it, um, and was enjoying it. But then university kind of um made the call for me this you know, we're not sure if we can offer you a spot in the master's program as a bass, but if you do the conducting one, we would look favourably upon that. So that was it Okay.
Speaker 3:The die was cast. The next step, sure and at the right time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so when you talk about what you've done in conducting, you were talking about musical theatre. So what have you been involved in with that? What performances?
Speaker 3:Music theatre very little. That's kind of just a guilty pleasure Okay.
Speaker 1:You mentioned Carmen.
Speaker 3:That's one of the operas. Yeah, it's the operas. Yeah, so that was. If there's a hierarchy in conducting, I would imagine that opera is probably the top, because frequently there's so much they're bigger pieces, it's a bigger industry. Like in a symphony concert, the orchestra is on the stage, they do their overture. Concerto, symphony, you know, next week, rinse and repeat, opera is a bigger project. The orchestra's on the stage, they do their overture. A concerto, symphony, you know, next week, rinse and repeat operas are bigger projects. You've got, you know, three to six weeks of rehearsals and a run of performances, um and but there's so much else going on and what I found just and I still do found intoxicating about it, it's just being part of the wider theatrical experience. Right, okay.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm the guy there's a lot more going on with it Is that what you're saying, like, being able to go to the theatre and talk to a lighting designer, a set designer, a costume designer, let alone the director and the cast, and you're especially for the conductor, all of that's going on, but you've got to make it happen at that moment. Okay, and that, just like, no one teaches you that you're supposed to time the cutoff of a chord with the millisecond. The curtain hits the bottom of the stage at the end. But the audience will realize if it doesn't, because something doesn't quite seem right. Right, yeah, or there's a long light fade and you're like, okay, I'm just gonna wait till that light's changed and go.
Speaker 3:You're, you're recreating the opera live every night. And you know, the best conversations I ever used to have was with, like, when you're creating a new production, fresh, talking to the lighting designer and the set designer, and they'll say things like well, what colour? What are the colours and the textures in this scene, in the music? Yeah, like, how do we replicate that or contrast that on the stage? Because you're literally seeing this book, literally a couple of hundred pages of ink and paper, become something living and three-dimensional. But yeah, they're the best moments.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay. So that's when you're really immersed in the whole scene and the whole vibe of it and yeah, yeah, you're recreating that.
Speaker 3:you're recreating a masterpiece in the moment, yeah, like, if you know you went to the louvre and watched you know someone painting. You know at that point, you know, yeah, like the guard doing it as it was happening, you know, or Monet, or you know.
Speaker 1:But that's the beauty of the artistic side of what you're doing, isn't it Fitting right in? And I suppose you could say matching the music to the performance. Yeah absolutely.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I get that In the moment. But also and here's the trick the difference between symphony conducting and opera conducting in the opera house. You're doing all that, but no one should know you're there.
Speaker 1:I remember you said that to me. I'm going to ask you about that in a second.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, of course it's hard to see the conductor, practically because you know you're in the orchestra pit down below.
Speaker 1:And you have your back to me the whole performance. You're the musician with your back to me, yeah. You're the only musician with your back to the audience.
Speaker 3:Well, after we mentioned this the other day, I thought about it. You're the only person in the performing arts who spends my entire life with my back to the punters Like what the hell is that about? Yeah, but if the audience notices you're there, you're not doing your job, right? Why?
Speaker 1:do you say that Just?
Speaker 3:elaborate on that for me? Well, in the opera house they should be watching the stage. Yeah, I'm listening to the music. If you're watching a guy in the tailcoat who's sweating profusely, flail their arms about you. The that's distracting from the show. I mean, a lot of people will say that they enjoy watching the conductor in the orchestra and yes, you can. Um and sure, watching 90 musicians move together and seeing it all happen is incredible. But yeah, if the conductor is drawing attention to themselves, it's at the detriment of the theatre and the theatre should come first. Yes.
Speaker 3:I have to. But the other environment is the symphony conductor, where you're on the concert platform in literally ground zero, in the middle of the hall, in your tails, and then you can just go for it.
Speaker 1:Right, okay, so explain to me what you're actually doing. We see you gesturing with your hands. We see you gesturing with your hands. You have a baton which, I'm assuming, with your movements, is keeping time. But explain to me what you're actually doing, because we see you gesturing, but what is that actually meaning to the musicians?
Speaker 3:The first thing the listeners should probably be aware of, as musicians aren't actually watching the conductor. They're staring at him 99% of the time. They're staring at the music, yeah, okay, or the other musicians around them. So the gestures from the podium they're catching in their periphery. So they'll, if they will, they will be aware somewhere above their line of sight there is a movement going on that is providing that the time timing for them to lock in. Right, so they're not. Yeah, it's, it's got to be clear enough that they don't actually have to be distracted from the notes on the page. Um, so that's the first side of it so what you're saying?
Speaker 3:the musician is looking at the music, but you're in their periphery, so there's sort of yeah, okay so you, the conductor, has to be clear enough that someone who is really trying to focus on the little black dots can catch the information they need from something that they're not actually focusing on. So you've got to be, and the first time you realize, as a conductor, that they're not actually looking at you, it's a bit of an ego deflating moment. Oh, wow, okay, they're really not actually looking. But then you realise that you've actually got to be better at your job, and the basics of it are really simple. I could teach you to conduct the basics of conducting in about 15 minutes, right, and put you in front of an orchestra and it would hold. I'd be fascinated to see what it would look. Yeah, I would too.
Speaker 3:Actually I'd love to do that combination of, um, of beats, what we call the beat pattern, uh, universal, and they're really simple. I mean, most conductors only have to count to four. That's a real blessing. Yeah, most of the time you've got only four beats in a bar and, look, I struggle with anything beyond that too. Um, and so there's like, if you've got four beats, there's four gestures, so like one is down, two is left, three is right and four is up, okay, universal, and you can. As long as you can just keep doing that, the orchestra will just keep chugging along Right. The layers on top of it are also pretty instinctive. If you want a sharp, aggressive sound, you do that beat pattern or mark that beat pattern in a sharp, aggressive way, okay, right. Or if you want a smooth, gentle sound, you, you move your hand in a so this is your manner that you're conveying what you are.
Speaker 1:I suppose sensing the music should come out as, and, and directing it like that, with that sort of more quick or more or slower movement.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, the actual what they call the ictus, or the click of where the beat is, doesn't change, but how you move from one to the other. Right, because obviously if you slow down your hand the music's going to slow down, slow down, yeah, it's how you move from one note to the other. You can tell I've got a deep understanding of it. Yeah, oh no, but if you're given, I'm sure, for anyone listening to explain in those simple terms, it really just, it makes it really easy to, yeah, understand what a conductor is doing, see how they're communicating, and it unlocks that because it's not that mysterious so well I was going to say it is mysterious, for for the average punter, though and myself I've been, you know, I've seen many ballet and watched many, even the other day, when I was with my children and we went to symphony Do you know?
Speaker 1:it is a mysterious, it has been a mysterious thing. What is the conductor doing? Yeah, I love that. You say you shouldn't be noticed when you're doing your job properly.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because that means you're actually fitting in flawlessly with the musicians and the performance and getting your and this is really important getting your ego out of the way. Okay, not every conductor would happily say that, but I'm, when I'm conducting Brahms and uh, dvorak tomorrow. Both of those guys are a hell of a lot smarter and a lot better musicians than I will ever be. Um, and it is my job to get out of the way and try to reproduce what they've spent months, years, writing to the best of my ability, and it shouldn't have any of it's not that it doesn't have any of me. I've got to invest in it, but they've got to come first. Yes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the weird exceptions of that and this is, I mean, this is the Hogwarts sort of side of it there are sometimes, like when you listen to a recording and you can tell who the conductor is, and they're the instances when you've got a conductor who is a genius at that level, like you know, and probably they're a composer themselves, sure, because they're overlaying their view, their ideas, on top of someone else's in a way that works. It doesn't actually sound exactly like the composer. You're like oh yeah, that's you know. The two that come to mind are Leonard Bernstein and Herbert von Karajan, who were both these towering geniuses, the ones who were mentioned before, who you know flew in their private jets, you know, you know it's them, because the ego just pours out of it. Oh right, in a good way, like they've interrogated the music to this level, they're investing at this level and they have a sound.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, I like that. So yeah, but you can hear or feel that that they have a sound.
Speaker 3:Yeah absolutely Okay, and you listen to three recordings of the same piece and go this is an American orchestra and this is a German orchestra. That's definitely Bernstein. What do you hear? That's different. I suppose a musician would regard it in the same way that you can hear three different actors read the same Shakespeare sonnet. The words will be the same, but everything else is different. You know, dame Maggie Smith passed away recently and my Instagram feed has been filled with snippets of her reading poetry and stuff like that. And you know it's her instantly, yeah, okay, even with your eye sight, you can tell who it is reading poetry and and stuff like that. And you know it's her instantly, yeah, okay, just leaving without even with your eye shot, you can tell who it is. I think a big conductor has those, those traits, those, um, little hallmarks.
Speaker 1:Well, the way they breathe is different yeah, okay, this gets back to the intimate understanding and the depth of it, though isn't it so layered as to what you do? Yeah, one thing we uh spoke about when we were talking recently is you mentioned to me that there's this unbelievable aerobic capacity required, and it's exhausting doing what you do as a conductor, and I was thinking about this after we spoke and I thought most people would sort of you know, cast outside or not believe that that would be true. Yeah, and you're explaining to me that before your performances, there's minimal rehearsals usually two that day, if you have to correct me if I'm wrong and then you perform that night and it's so exhausting, but the conducting is exhausting um well, you, like any athlete, I suppose your body gets used to it and you get used to the pacing.
Speaker 3:But I mean to put it in context. Yeah, in a in the opera world where I was working mostly, take Carmen. Four acts each about 35, 40 minutes. You're on your feet, waving your arms in the air, yeah, and you might do that three, four nights a week. That's a lot of aerobics, yeah, and also like but is that what it also like?
Speaker 1:but is that what it felt like? Is that what it feels? Like you're standing there gesturing I, I can imagine but doing that continually. For what did you say? How much time did you say a performance would be like? Three hours yeah, hours, hours, hours. I mean, I can imagine that would be, you know, reasonably exhausting.
Speaker 3:Never in the moment. Okay, because it carries you through. I mean, I don't do aerobics, that would become a massive shock. I'm sure it's very wrong. But you know, if you went to a spin class or an aerobics class, as long as the music keeps going, yeah, you're going to keep going in that exercise. Or you're going to keep on that treadmill until the music stops Until you hit that double bar line at the end of the opera and everyone's dead. Usually the music keeps going, so you do, and also the adrenaline is up. Yeah, okay, you don't write opera.
Speaker 3:Fortunately, most composers don't write operas about sitting at home doing the dishes. Sure, these are works about some big emotions. I mean, a grand opera is usually the story of ill-fated lovers set amongst a moment of great political or social tension. You know, so you've got two people whose love is being pulled apart because you know Napoleon's invading or something. You know. There's lots going on, yeah, and there's 100 people on stage, and you know, and 50 or 60, 70 in the orchestra appear all going berserk, and 2,000 in the house. There's a lot of energy, yeah, sure, and they're big drama If these two protagonists on stage are arguing or fighting or falling in love, you've got to work to make the music. Tell that story.
Speaker 1:But you're immersed in them, in that, emotionally. I'm listening to what you're saying, but between the lines you're in the depths of the pit, immersed in everything around you emotionally. Yeah, you're the, and that must be exhausting by the end of it afterwards.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, because of the adrenaline yeah, you're so driven yeah, uh, but watching particularly. I know I come back to opera, um so much, but the conductor is the impetus for everything in in that that you're. You're feeding or cuing the words to the singers if there's not a prompter, but your face is often living the emotions that the singers are transmitting, so you're actually beaming out almost to them, breathing with them. We come back to that there's this.
Speaker 1:It's an unspoken sort of link, isn't there? It's all breath.
Speaker 3:It gets back to being mysterious.
Speaker 3:There's an incredible Australian music educator named Anita Collins who wrote a book called the Music Advantage, and I met her just and it comes up because I just met her yesterday. She was at work talking about music and music education. I've always known that if I stand in front of the orchestra and breathe in, they will all breathe in and play. No one ever says it, they just do it. And the same thing will happen. Imagine you've got a singer who's trying to sing at someone else. They can't actually see the conductor because they're trying to act, but if I do it, they will take a breath. Yeah, like, if you know that that's where the breath is and you've got to help them out or they're running out of air, you can hear it in their voice, you do an audible inhalation and they will breathe with you. And also everyone in the orchestra will sort of do that at the same time.
Speaker 3:So the music flexes around, that rubato idea that we talked about. They all come from the breath. Well, as I say to the students now, you know what happens if you don't breathe. Well, you die. So it's like, just breathe and everything will work, because if you don't breathe, the performance is going to come stale, we lose composure and clarity for a start, but even more it's how you make music. Human is by breathing between the phrases. A computer, or you know, chat GPT, I'm sure, sure could write you a symphony, but it can't play it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know how to breathe so this again goes back to the intimate understanding, the depth of what you do. There must have been um performances where, if we think about putting yourself into the zone or the fluid state and it just sort of happens um, there's a clarity and you're conducting by field. That must have happened, you know, in some let's say, many times or a few times that are absolutely outstanding for you, where it's just melded together ideally, yeah, yeah, do you think that's yet?
Speaker 3:yet to happen. No, there are a couple um, but you can't remember no, no, no, you, you remember moments um. The first time, um, I did carmen from I, I, I don't um, some conductors conduct memory all the time. They have photographic memories. I can certainly, like you said, conduct come and now I could. It's all up there, but you keep the book with you. First time I did it without a score, so conducting from memory, it was a little scary but so liberating because the musicians also played differently. Yeah, okay, they knew that I was doing something. Musicians also played differently.
Speaker 3:Yeah, okay, they knew that I was doing something a little bit differently, but the moments of real moments of real joy. There was a I spent a lot of time in the my 30s touring, um, yeah, I'm in traveling in china, um, with an incredible bunch of australians. Uh, and one company we had were performing marriage of figaro motops opera. Um, and it was, and it was insane, right. So you've got a opera, and it was, and it was insane, right? So you've got a revolutionary period. French play turned into an opera, libretto by an italian, set in.
Speaker 3:So he's set into italian, put to music by an austrian yeah about a bunch of badly behaved Spanish performed by Australians in China, like what on earth is going on. But at the same time, it was the most clear demonstration to me that music transcends all. Yeah, that you can tell this simple, domestic, very funny story, and they will. What doesn't matter if you're in australia, in germany, in china, they will laugh at that point. They will, um, they will cry at this point, because the music does it for you. It takes a journey and there was yeah, I'll throw my happiest. And it wasn't. It was going well, but for a very different reason.
Speaker 3:So again, this marriage of figuro tour in China, show 13 or 14, was in a city called Nanning, which is towards the Vietnamese border, so southwest. It wasn't a city I'd ever heard of, it was just in the middle of the tour, nothing particularly special. And we got to the theatre and it was really rough, like not no, we'd played at some great venues and everyone's like oh, yeah, okay, well, we'll just tick off this one and we'll go on to the next city tomorrow. And the show started midway through act one and this is a four actor. Something felt a bit weird. And I looked up at a friend of mine who was singing one of the roles and just sort of eyebrowed them and was like something's a bit weird. And they looked down at me as well and just nodded with like yeah, this is really weird. And then the opera kicks on a little bit longer and suddenly I realised normally the audience would laugh when the surtitle screens changed, like the jokes came up in the Chinese surtitles, because, yeah, they're singing in Italian and so you wouldn't expect the jokes to drop line. But then I went, holy crap, they're laughing when it's actually happening live. And I sort of thought, unless it's a particular part of China, it's fluent in Italian. Something really weird is going on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it came out unbelievable. I said to the producer, like what's going on? He said, man, this out unbelievable. I said to the producer, like what's going on? He said, man, this is unbelievable.
Speaker 3:It turns out this city has the conservatorium, the music school for the whole provinces here, and they've been studying this opera for six months ahead of this performance. So there was 1,500 kids back there who were chapter and verse for this thing and, like you know, so they knew what was coming but they could almost that sort of sense of expectation and they were so excited and they knew everything and, by God, if it didn't draw the best performance for me and the singers that we did on that whole tour, and probably one of the best in my entire life, because they they loved this piece so much and knew it too well, we wanted to just take it to that next level. The show was what like three and a half, four hours, I reckon. We signed autographs for two after um, in this little crazy town in the middle of you know nowhere southwestern china. And one thing this girl said to me afterwards um, she said thank you, this will be my most beautiful memory. That's so cool and it's like, all right, I'm done yeah, that's it left a legacy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, life, you know, yeah, okay, and yeah, my heart changed in that moment yeah, beautiful audience is well invested in it and had a good understanding.
Speaker 1:That's so cool.
Speaker 3:so maybe that's the other. The side we haven't really talked about is the audience side of it. What they bring. You know, if it's a Pops concert and there's a joyous little march going on, you know you let the audience, things will clap along, and if you let them, then they're engaging in the performance and some of that sort of shtick where you know you get the audience going and rev them up a bit.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of. Do you do that? Yeah, it's part of your role, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean I'm not going to do it in a Beethoven symphony, no, of course. But yeah, but the shtick, and not being too precious about it, because at the end of the day, you want the audience to have a good time and if that's what they expect and look, I used have a good time and if that's what they expect, and look, I used to used to call it sort of the monkey act, because you know, yeah, put on my tailcoat, get on the podium, do my job, get the audience happy, um, but it's a bouncer. If you get them in and engaged and enjoying it, then they will. They will trust you on taking them a little further down the musical journey, like to listen to a piece that they haven't heard before.
Speaker 1:And that's what you thrive on, I'm sure yeah. But it's that balance. What's the craziest thing that's ever happened with an orchestra that you've had to, I suppose, contain or change in a second. Is there something crazy that's happened or something unforeseen that's happened, or is it? You know, I'm thinking that everyone is so well rehearsed and knows the music so well. It's sort of unlikely that things would bend too much, but has there ever been something that like someone's just dropped their bow? I'm not sure.
Speaker 3:Instrument failures are a constant bane. You know, particularly woodwind instruments that don't decide to malfunction because they're mechanics. Mechanical instruments. Yeah, I remember the concertmaster's violin, self-destructed in the middle of this incredibly quiet, tender moment in an opera, with a sound that sounded like a gun had gone off. And of course this poor guy is sitting right underneath beside me and his you know, thousands of thousands of dollar violin has just, you know, busted. And you know everyone else is like oh my, what, what on earth. But I know people have been at concerts might have seen this if, um, someone at the front they're in like string, yeah, without talking about it, the person next door will just hand them their violin, right, okay, it sort of just gets passed back. I've seen it even happen in concertos where the soloist has snapped a string, turned around, grabbed the one from the concertmaster, keep going. So those moments I mean they're scary.
Speaker 3:I think I've been fortunate not to have too many distractions. Often things go wrong on stage and of course I can't sort of ask, like ask the singers, you know, hang on. You know, or tell the audience hang on, we'll just wait for that person to show up. So the moments where you're watching the cast wing it. Um, there's a thing called spaghettiing or pastoring.
Speaker 3:Uh, when someone forgets their lines and they just say random words in italian that all sound like pastors. Um, until I remember what they're supposed to say. Um, okay, they're pretty wild. Uh, yeah, I've been pretty lucky not to have too many disasters. Certainly instruments self-destructing when you're in the pit and you know, I've seen people pull off some incredible stuff, like a oboe cracked, which they do. Yeah, a flute player, knowing that in about seven bars there is an oboe solo that can't be played, just leaning sideways and just playing and then going back to playing their own while the first oboe is switched. They both have to go next to them and no one talks about it. Musicians are so, and opera singers as well are so incredibly good at problem solving in the moment so that the audience doesn't know. Yeah.
Speaker 3:I mean, that old line of the show must go on. These guys are so good at that and my job in that moment is just to keep everyone calm.
Speaker 1:And move with it. That's what you're doing, Like the musician you're moving with it and not controlling but sort of guiding it back.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's like keeping it calm. You're sort of going to a very clear broad pattern of no, no, it's fine, we're going with this. You might do a few little gesture things or just gesture everyone no, no, keep going.
Speaker 1:Because it is in everyone's instinct to panic and you just got go lower the tension down but make sure the music just keeps going so that makes me think that your rapport with the musicians is, like it has to be quite strong or there's got to be a like, a sort of a certain depth of understanding. I know you or you know them, or and that must be difficult if the musicians change, you know, nightly. Yeah, but I'm assuming there's a certain rapport.
Speaker 3:Yeah, there has to be, and it's one made of trust. I couldn't produce the sounds that I do in the orchestra if they didn't trust me. And you earn it. Yeah, I've seen performances go very, very wrong, uh, where the conductor's got himself into trouble, but the audience, the orchestra of well, we don't like this guy very much, so we're not going to help him out yeah yeah, yeah, okay, um, we're not, we're not gonna, um, you're not gonna, sabotage it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but it's like uh, uh, opera, like a good opera, orchestra will spin on a dime to support a soloist, like a singer on stage, in doing what they're doing yeah okay, and when that happens, I mean it is mesmerizing, because not only is the depth of this is how the this is how the piece goes, but here's the 47 000 ways it can change at any given moment so that we still have a good, uh product, but to facilitate, like that singer doing whatever it is that they need at that moment, particularly, um, if it's a capacity to show off something that is truly exceptional, like you know, you think about someone who, like there might be a really high note that this singer x can hold forever and make the audience gasp. The orchestra will just. They'll just sit there and pause, like the singer's like no, no, this is I can hang around here for a while. The audience is getting their money's worth. The orchestra will just stretch Okay, okay, that's what you're paying for, but it's also just really at that really high level.
Speaker 1:I love the way you describe that, though, the way you move with it and make decisions on the spot. You're almost caressing the music, in a way.
Speaker 3:That's a nice way.
Speaker 1:It's like yeah, like you said before melding it, or.
Speaker 3:Yeah, shaping it. I mean in my head the music is very tactile. I mean I'm not Plastic. Yeah, it's very plastic I can't see it like I'm not. There's not something occurring in my um, my frontal vision, but I do think of it very texturally, as if there is something up above the musicians that, yeah, you're shaping like it was, like it was pottery or something. I get what you mean, the plastic is a really nice one.
Speaker 1:But this is the sort of mysterious part of what you do. Going back to what we said at the start, it's a mystery, but see, most people would never even consider the depths of what we've just discussed.
Speaker 3:I mean, you've taught me so much in like, however long, but maybe that's the point of it. It's so cool.
Speaker 1:Keep it that way too.
Speaker 3:Well, yeah, because you don't want to. Magicians shouldn't give away their tricks, right?
Speaker 1:But I like what you said. I mean I should be invisible if I'm doing my job properly. I love that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, take them on a journey without them ever seeing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like a puppeteer.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like a puppeteer. Yeah, Maybe not quite that analogy of having musicians on strings. That's a bit crazy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, where to from here for you, pat.
Speaker 3:Well. So I was very lucky, very quickly a couple of years ago, to move from working in the industry as a long-term freelancer to landing a job at Melbourne Grammar School where I am now running their orchestral program. And, yeah, this is a job for me. I'm 20 years on the road and never been quite sure what the next contract was. Sure, this is a wonderful place, an incredibly inspiring place to work. Wonderful students, wonderful staff, yeah, and completely different repertoire. I'm getting to do a lot of stuff that where I was opera focused, now it's much more concertos and symphonies. Um, I can engage a lot of my other interesting, particularly in creating new music or not composing myself. I would never, um, that's not my skill set, sure. But to commission new works, sure. But also a big part of the orchestra's role is touring, so working out crazy adventures for the boys to take their music out into regional Australia or overseas yeah, that's so good, it's the right move.
Speaker 1:This is nurturing a next generation, though, isn't it Absolutely yeah, which you've been involved with some youth orchest? Nurturing a next generation, though, isn't it Absolutely yeah. You've been involved with some youth orchestras in the past, though, haven't you?
Speaker 3:Yeah. And this wasn't a conscious career choice. In the middle of working in opera, I started conducting some kids' concerts. It turned out I enjoyed it and seemed to have a knack for it. Um, and that built to then conducting young youth orchestras, and this is just an extension of that. Um, and, mind you, this is 92 teenage boys who play like pros. The all right, okay, it's so invested in it and yeah, so passionate about the music and supporting their team, their peers.
Speaker 3:Put that sort of, you know, like school, look after your mate's mentality. Apply that, sorry, plus a rugby team, I reckon, apply that to a orchestra. That gives you a sense of what this crowd's like. Yeah, they're all, like you know, going to be anesthetists and speak four languages. Like it's a, like you know, going to be an esotist and speak four languages. Like it's a pretty, pretty vibrant mix.
Speaker 3:Uh, but it's, um, there's, there was a moment of realization that I could conduct operas every night the rest of my life. Uh, and that would reach a certain audience, you know. And but teaching, and particularly being in a school environment, one that's such a dedication to music education that I, even though I'm not actually produce you know, the orchestra is not there to create the musicians, that's not its explicit function yeah, but you're much more likely to produce, and if I'm there for a few, you know, god willing, you know, the rest of my professional career, producing a generation of you know smart, well-connected men who are passionate about music, who are become board members, donors, patrons, donors, patrons, supporters and parents of kids who they raised to be interested in music, and particularly at a school like this one, that can make a bigger difference to the cultural life of Melbourne and Australia.
Speaker 1:So I was going to say contributing to the artistic world, isn't it really? Yeah, even if you're in the audience or as a player. Yeah, completely. That's what I say about you nurturing this younger generation coming through. It's crucial, and they will be incredibly inspired of you getting on their level, I'm sure yeah, I hope so, and they're.
Speaker 3:Just look, it takes a lot to convince any teenager that on friday, you know when you're just done from a long week at school, you know to schlep your way into the rehearsal room and play, you know some pretty full-on, you know mentally engaging Brahms for an hour and a half. But they do it. Yeah, okay, they love it and they're excited by it. Yeah, fantastic.
Speaker 3:It keeps me, you know, and and passionate about what I'm doing and they turn every year there's a new orchestra as they graduate, so it's really it's constantly renewing but the way you're talking about it's inspiring for you yeah, totally, oh, yeah they'll be passionate and and inspired, but you clearly are as well, oh, absolutely. No one's ever more fun than me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's so good. Hey, thanks for joining me. I really appreciate your time, amazing insight and depth of what you do. As I said, it's been mysterious, or it is mysterious for most people, and I have asked people since we spoke what does a conductor do? What questions would you ask? I've been intrigued and the same question comes up all the time. But I really appreciate you going deep into it and I know it was multi-layered and just keeps going down. You describe that feel and reading the play beautifully of something that sits above the musicians and you can sort of like meld it in a certain direction. Yeah, yeah, that's so amazingly beautiful. Thank you.
Speaker 3:Oh, it's a pleasure and so much you know fun to talk about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can sense your passion through it.
Speaker 3:It's good I'm being interrogated a little bit more.
Speaker 1:Have you spoken about this much? Not like going deep into what you actually do? I mean, I haven't pushed you too much, but you, you know your enthusiasm comes through, that's for sure. Yeah, have you spoken about it much?
Speaker 3:the main place where you get asked about it is if you're at a concert or an event and someone says what do you do? Yeah, and usually I keep a really simplified answer because you know like you haven't got it's endless, yeah, yeah yeah, all this um, but it's funny your choice of words there. You know, I I don't know if I've found the right word to describe it, because you know we started with control.
Speaker 1:Yes, but it's, it's not control, is it?
Speaker 3:Melding, because one thing I haven't sort of talked about is you're taking what, like I don't make any noise.
Speaker 1:Yes, you've got your back to me as well.
Speaker 3:I've got my back to you, I can't like we're talking about an oral art form here. Yes, that's it, that's it, that's good. Yeah, I like that. So I'm taking what you know the musicians are offering, live in that moment, and trying to synthesise it with what every other one is seeing, what the whole is like. How does that compare to the roadmap in my head? What does it sound like out the back? How's the audience um, and and just running, and and what did the composer want? Yeah, yeah, and you know, and putting it all together to try and offer the audience an experience that's going to change their lives.
Speaker 1:So I mean, it's pretty cool yeah, it's so amazing, yeah, and and look, being in an audience, you often do walk away just like not breath I wouldn't say breathless, but like really taken by the, the whole experience, and you bring that to people and it's, look it's.
Speaker 3:It's a pretty cool thing to be able to do. Oh wow, that's powerful, isn't it? Yeah?
Speaker 1:it is. I'm going to take a deep breath now yeah, exactly I'm going to listen to music and make sure I breathe with it. So cool, pat. Thank you so much for joining me in your time my absolute privilege and pleasure thank you so much, jason.
Speaker 3:We'll put you on the podium one day. I'd love to, that'd be. Look, I'm going to take you up on that. We'll put you on the podium one day. I'd love to.
Speaker 1:I'd love to come in. That'd be so cool. Yeah, I'd love to do that, it'd be awesome.
Speaker 1:I'm not sure how it'd come out, but anyway, yeah, it'd be a great experience, absolutely All right, Thanks again. Thanks, mate. Well, you'd be pleased to have someone like Pat teaching your child music with all of that enthusiasm and passion. Thanks for listening and you can learn more about Pat Miller and this episode by checking the show notes, and there are many links to follow. You can follow Pat Miller at patmillerconductor and you can follow this show at the underscore champion within. And while we've been talking music, a huge thanks to Shane O'Mara and the Silver Sound who generously have provided the music for this show. You can listen to episode four in this series with Shane O'Mara talking all things guitar related. Appreciate you tuning in to Pat Miller and this episode. Keep listening and I'll be with you again soon. Thank you.
