Art of Prevention
Our mission is to decrease the prevalence of preventable injuries and athletes therein optimizing performance by decreasing the time that our athletes spend benched due to injury. We are going to distill information and practices from experts in the field of injury prevention. High level coaches and top performing athletes. We believe this information should be accessible to everyone so that we can reduce the rates of preventable injuries.
Art of Prevention
Elevating Climbing Performance and Navigating Injury Prevention. Part 1 with Aaron Simon, DPT
Prepare to transform your climbing practice with the guidance of Aaron Simon, a seasoned doctor of physical therapy and dedicated climber who understands the highs and pitfalls of the sport. Clasp onto the knowledge Aaron shares from his base in the climbing mecca of Las Vegas, where he not only heals but also educates climbers on how to avert the dreaded injuries that can come from pushing the limits on the rock face. This episode traverses Aaron's own journey from an injury-stricken athlete to a healer who's found his calling in the vertical realm, offering a glimpse into the world where hand injuries are as complex as the routes they're sustained on, and where specialized rehab is not just beneficial but essential.
As someone who's seen the underside of injury, I found Aaron's insights on tracking climbing attempts eye-opening, especially his take on the nuanced risks outdoor bouldering presents. We recount a gripping story of a climber's encounter with the 'Pocket Rocket', a tale that serves as a cautionary reminder of the risks of high-intensity moves. However, it's not just about the perils; Aaron also demystifies the skepticism around injury prevention, championing strength training and a revamped mindset post-recovery that culminates in a sustainable climbing ethic.
And for those eager to gain an upper edge, Aaron unpacks the role of strength training in boosting climbing performance, sharing practical tips that have helped even myself reap unexpected benefits from incorporating exercises like bicep curls and lateral raises. Join us as we discuss the balance of strength, skill, and power, and delve into how climbers can enhance their dynamic moves through targeted training techniques. If you're passionate about climbing or just curious about the mechanics of injury prevention, this conversation is replete with valuable tips for both the rookie and the seasoned climber.
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Speaker 1:Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the Art of Prevention podcast and, as always, I have another special and amazing guest and today is obviously no different in that I'm talking to Aaron Simon, who is a doctor of physical therapy and he's the owner of on site physical therapy just outside of Las Vegas, nevada.
Speaker 1:So he's treating a lot of the climbers in Las Vegas as well as a lot of the climbers that go to Red Rocks, which is just outside of Las Vegas, nevada. So he's treating a lot of the climbers in Las Vegas as well as a lot of the climbers that go to red rocks, which is just outside of Las Vegas. He specializes and has an emphasis in treating rock climbers and I actually met Aaron out at the clinical management of the rock climber course in golden Colorado and we had a bunch of fun time connecting and chatting there. So I knew that I had to have on the podcast to talk about climbing specific injuries as well as some of the injuries that are commonplace to Red Rocks and just outside of Las Vegas. So, aaron, tell me, first thing, you've had a couple of injuries in climbing, but what got you initially psyched on treating it rock climbers? Because I know you've got a pretty varied background in the physical therapy space, but what got you into treating climbers specifically?
Speaker 2:I've got a you you know I enjoy playing all sorts of like team sports and whatnot growing up and I would say I had like a pretty traditional background that way. You know, about 10 years ago, got into climbing and, like two or three years into that, had my own experience with a pulley injury. I was climbing, doing a little bouldering. Out in Joe's there's a climb called Pocket Rocket. I think you said you've heard of this before and, like, gave it a few goes and you know, just felt like that aching sensation in my finger and it was kind of worse the following day and you know this was 2017, I think. And you know I went to Google and there wasn't much out there. There was, like Jared Vagey's website there was some interviews with, like, the Anderson brothers, but there wasn't much out there. And I was able to connect to a local guy in Salt Lake who took a look at it and basically calmed my nerves and helped me realize that it was.
Speaker 2:It was more minor and, you know, interestingly enough, I thought I'd have to just rest this thing and he's like, no, actually you can go through this hangboarding protocol and you're you're going to do really well with it, and that was news to me and I don't know, I just think the hands are so cool. You know, like everybody uses their hands all day long and so treating the whole upper extremity is just, uh, it's so fun and so meaningful. Like you can have an injury that bothers you only while climbing and you can have something that affects you like in all of your day-to-day stuff. So that that was my, you know, experience with it and it, you know, took a little while to rehab it and I didn't know what I was doing.
Speaker 2:But by the time I got to pt school and you know I have hindsight I feel like, uh, that pt I worked with did give me, you know, a lot of good recommendations, just from that conversation. So, yeah, I think that's, I think that's kind of the basic background. During school, you know, I got to be involved with the climbing SIG. That was where we, you know, initially connected, yeah, and oh man, this guy's super, super intelligent, super, super smart. So I was, I was just scared to talk to you back then, but it was cool to meet you in person at the, the clinical management seminar, and uh, yeah, like stoked to talk to you more about these things oh, it's been.
Speaker 1:It's been cool, like reaching out and chatting with you more about how you've been transitioning more to that one-on-one physical therapy and really specializing in rock climbers. And now I think it was this year that you said that you're moving more towards just working with climbers and like outdoor, like adventure sport, athletes and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, um, you know, and I was in school I realized that treating in the high volume patient clinics where you're juggling three, four, five, six patients an hour just wasn't for me. It wasn't the quality of care that I wanted to do. And by the time I was done with school, you know, I had the opportunity to connect with another climbing PT named Jennifer. So shout out to her. She was the one who originally started onsite movement and gave me a lot of valuable mentorship, a lot of training from her, and it's just been, it's been so fun to be a part of people's rehab experience and have them say, oh, this is so different than other PT experiences I've had. I think it's that opportunity to spend that time and talk to people about their background, their training habits and really focus on the educational portion of it, because that's huge.
Speaker 1:Oh, I completely agree, and that's kind of a model that I'm transitioning to myself as well, and through that, like getting the ability to talk to people and educate people and talk to people about training and going outside and stuff like that, you kind of get the sense of like patterns, and a lot of times we get to see kind of the same thing over and over again and we get to recognize these patterns of what led to a lot of people's injuries. So can you give us a couple of insights now as to a couple of the patterns that lead to climbing injuries from your clinical experience that you've gotten over the last couple of years?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So here in Vegas I would say, we've got like four major gyms that people go to and they're, you know, predominantly bouldering gyms. You know most, I think the tallest walls are, you know, 30 to 40 feet. And then outdoors, you know, here at Red Rocks, obviously we have some huge multi-pitch routes. People are, you know, well-known like Eprinethrin, frogland, cat in the Hat, all that.
Speaker 2:But it seems like, with the ease of access to bouldering gyms and, like you know, there's just low, buried entry for that, everybody goes out to craft, which is essentially, you know, an outdoor bouldering gym. You know you can leave your car and within five or ten minutes be surrounded by hundreds of different problems. So people are getting really high climbing volume, high repetition, especially on crux moves, difficult moves, and I think that plays a pretty big role in it. The difference between someone who's getting injured in a gym or bouldering is having that high volume. They're having more chronic injuries, injury patterns and you know, sometimes people have an acute injury and that's just the hand you're dealt, you know. But it seems to be a lot of this high climbing load, you know. So that's made up of our, you know the intensity of the work we're doing, the volume right.
Speaker 2:How many days on are you getting? How many hours are these sessions? And you know, bouldering gyms and bouldering out at craft are just, they really make it easy to get a lot of that. So it seems like the more acute injuries are happening in. Well, let me rephrase that. The chronic issue is related to that. It's that volume. Well, let me rephrase that. The chronic issue is related to that. It's that volume, that training lacking that rest. And these are injuries that come on little by little and they just kind of gradually get worse, compared to some climber who goes and has a pulley injury and sometimes that's just bad luck. You know, maybe there wasn't a whole lot you could do about it, but those seem to be like the major differences I see.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we've got the acute injuries and then the chronic injuries. Chronic injuries more due to like those slow builds over time and that may be a little bit too much over a long period of time versus that acute injury which is like the straw that broke the camel's back, where it's like you feel a pulley pop or God forbid you fall and have like a traumatic type of injury as well, would you say. That's pretty, pretty similar, and you said that on red rocks there are some pretty specific types of movements and injuries that you've been dealing with a lot like not dealing with personally, but with your clients, right?
Speaker 2:definitely, you know, especially with bouldering. You know the idea is we're, you is, we're topping out on boulders. So mantling is a big contributor, especially to some of these wrist injuries. You see where you're getting in for anyone who's unfamiliar with it you're getting into a position where your wrist is cocked back, kind of similar to a pushup position, and you're just putting tons and tons of body weight through there. So there's that compressive force to it. Maybe your wrist is a weird at a weird angle and you're at a point in the boulder where you know, potentially you're 10, 15, 20 feet off the ground and you really this is not a good, not a good time to be falling. So people will kind of gut it out and, you know, put a little extra effort there. But yeah, definitely a common injury pattern. I'm seeing boulders or getting more wrist injuries, whereas I really don't see that too often in our sport climbers.
Speaker 1:I feel like that's an interesting thing with the boulders because I would say a lot of people would associate bouldering with more like gym climbing, right, but one of the things that makes Red Rocks and especially the associate bouldering with more like gym climbing right, but one of the things that makes Red Rocks and especially the craft boulders unique, it sounds like as people are able to basically do like a gym style bouldering session out at the craft boulders where they have so much volume and so many different boulders just on hand. So, where indoor bouldering wrist injuries comprise, like you know, maybe 5% of total injuries, it sounds like you're experiencing those and treating those a lot more. Potentially because of the repetitive nature of people are mantling and topping out of these boulders at such a high rate because they're so readily available and maybe that's some of the injury differences that we see between outdoor and indoor climbers. Would you say that's pretty correct.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'd say that's pretty spot on.
Speaker 1:What are some things that people could do to mitigate those training loads? Like do you have any advice? Like what's the advice that you're giving your clients when they come in? They're like oh yeah, I have had this slow build of this like wrist discomfort over time.
Speaker 2:So assuming they don't have, like, a clear mechanism of injury. You know they can't point to a single move that happened on. Then, you know, the first thing I'm asking them is like well, what's your, what's your training look like? Give me a typical week over the past, you know month or two, right? I'll ask them have you made any changes to that training program, right? Does your training include any off the wall work?
Speaker 2:I think there's a lot of good evidence showing that. You know, resistance training, strength training, is, you know, huge in terms of injury prevention. And many climbers response is well, I'm climbing, but they don't consider doing loads greater than that. Other things I'll ask them that, I think, is it really points to the type of injury is how many days on are you getting in a typical week? Three to four seems pretty manageable for people, although I would argue that sometimes that's too high for some. But when somebody's telling me they're getting four, five, six days a week, those are the people who are injured, right? And then on top of that, it would be one thing to say cool, I'm getting a one hour session five or six days a week.
Speaker 2:But you know, climbing is inherently social. You go out to the crag and you're spending half a day there warming up, warming down, repeated burns on climbs, and so their sessions are like several hours long, and so when we're fatigued, like we're at greater risk of injury. So those are patterns that I see a lot like too many days on week after week, sessions that are exceptionally long. I would say usually 90 minutes to about two hours is a good general recommendation if people are bringing it down, and then one of the best things that you can do time's not always a best, time's, not always a great indicator of how much climbing someone's doing you could be sitting around, sitting around spotting somebody, you know taking a snack break, whatever that may be.
Speaker 2:I'll have people track their attempts. So you know, grab a logbook, you know, grab something on your phone and just track the number of goes that you give it. And then more points, you know, more points for the difficulty of it too. Right, it's going to be higher intensity loading there, and once we can kind of establish a baseline of that for people, then it's it's really a good time to clue in and say great like, how do we reduce this while also keeping you like sane, keeping you climbing and also like progressing things so that you can get back to your, you know, pre-injury level and even like how do you progress through that too?
Speaker 1:I totally agree. I think the tracking attempts is a huge thing. That doesn't really happen a lot with bouldering, outside particularly and I can think back to a lot of multi-hour bouldering sessions or like full day, like going to the boulders and not tracking any attempts and it's like gosh. I must have made like 50 attempts throughout the day or even higher than that. And if I was going to the gym and I was doing, you know, a 60 minute or a 90 minute session, that'd be like impossible, you know, unless I was climbing like V2 or V3 in like a massive gym Right.
Speaker 2:But that brings me back to that, brings me back to my injury. Like now that you, now that we've kind of fleshed that out a little bit that day that I was in Joe, my injury, like now that you, uh, now that we've kind of fleshed that out a little bit, that day that I was in joe's, like I, you know I learned to climb doing, you know, a bunch of sport climbing. So that was probably one of my first trips bouldering outside and you know we drove down there. So you know, several hours into it the next day it was supposed to snow. So you know we were just climbing everything we could and, like, my injury definitely occurred multiple hours into that and after I don't know, probably half a dozen, maybe a dozen attempts on that same move. So, like there's, you know there's the pattern right there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and for those of you that aren't familiar with a pocket rocket, in Joe's it's like a V six or V seven.
Speaker 1:It gets that slash grade because it's pretty morpho kind of boulder and I remember it like pretty vividly because I was there like a year ago and I and I did it and what it is is like you're hanging on to, I think, like an undercling or a side pull and then you have this really large, like lunge up to, I believe, a two-finger pocket and it's a pretty in-cut two-finger pocket.
Speaker 1:So once you have it, I mean your fingers are kind of in there, which is a plus and a minus because once your fingers are latched there, like you've stuck the move right. But if we're talking about, like the pulleys and other tissues that are going to be biomechanically stressed with that move, it's going to be lunging up to that pocket. And if we wanted to create a scenario that was like this is how you tear a pulley, then it would be like climb for multiple hours and then do this really big dynamic move to a pocket with not very good feet, which is pretty characteristic of that boulder because, if I remember correctly, I think there's like a hand foot match right after that, like after your feet cut probably.
Speaker 2:I mean I had no business being on that. Like you say, it's like v6 or v7 right now, like I think I was just trying to do a cool move, like there was no hope of that and I just kept going after it.
Speaker 1:So and that's like I think that's the allure of that boulder in particular is is that it is like oh, if you can do this one move like you've basically done v7 in some instances. You know, I got kind of. I got like pretty long arms, so it should be called like pocket reach for me, but I mean my feet cut afterwards too. Uh, even, yeah, even with like a pretty large, like you know height and then a plus one ape index. So I mean we can definitely see like the pieces fit together as far as like how we can create an injury.
Speaker 1:And that's one of the things that I oftentimes will discuss with people, because a lot of people bring up like, oh, you can't really prevent injuries, like. I get that all the time, especially with having a podcast titled Art of Prevention, right, and it's like, well, in some instances we could really like make injuries happen. Right, I could tell you, oh, I want you to go get really fatigued and then I want you to try this really dynamic movement to a pocket, and we know that that would increase the likelihood or probability of you injuring your fingers, and we know that also because it actually happened to you, right.
Speaker 1:So, then, on the flip side of that, like we could also employ a lot of strategies and things like strength training which would significantly reduce the risk of injuries. So it's like we know that there are things that can increase the likelihood of injuries, but we also know there are a lot of things that we can do to reduce the risk of injuries too. And that's the whole premise of the podcast. Right Is to really try to reduce the risk of these preventable injuries and potentially, if we would, we were able to go back in time, we could talk to Aaron of the past and potentially prevent that injury from happening. But then maybe you wouldn't be as awesome of a PT as you are now, so maybe it wouldn't have been worth it, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, it's always a good learning experience, you know, and I think one of the favorite things that I hear people say is that they, like they come out like stronger, more well-rounded with maybe like a slightly different like perspective on things after some of these injuries. You know where they injuries, you know where they go, you know what, like I was getting away with, you know doing a certain training behavior, right, like I was never warming up or I was always going out and climbing all day long and they're like cool, I'm going to take a slightly different approach now and like that's, you know, that's potentially life changing right. Like if you're just getting injured all throughout your twenties and thirties, like the likelihood of climbing the rest of your life is probably pretty low. But you know, we see some people crushing into like their later decades and like I hope tons of people can do that. You know, and it's just a, it's just a few changes, like a few mindset.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and what are some of the things that you're telling your clients and patients to track and measure besides like attempts on the wall, but as far as that cumulative volume that people are going to have like either on the wall or with their training?
Speaker 2:On the wall. You know, keeping it really simple. Some people say they, you know, they like that feeling of leaving the gym just like totally gassed, or they like going home knowing that there's left, nothing left in the tank. Um, and I think that's appropriate at times, right, like we all like that. Uh, you know, one of my favorite feelings is like, you know, getting sore again after like a heavy, you know, training session. So you don't always get to feel that and it's like cool, I, I did something new with my body or something different.
Speaker 1:So you, you've got this patient in your office and you look back at their training, it's like oh well, obviously this happened because we're not measuring anything, we're not measuring attempts, we're not measuring volume, nor we're measuring intensity. So what kind of stuff do you give them in order to like try and mitigate the risk of injury in the future?
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, um, you know know, definitely, tracking attempts is a big one, I would, I would argue, days on on an average week is a pretty good one to look at.
Speaker 2:Uh, we want to look at like some of these like more aggravating positions, so like, especially with these wrist injuries, they're gonna get you know, pretty aggravated with moves that either put a lot of compressive force at the wrist, like your mantles, some of your awkward side pulls, but then also, like that pulling motion of an undercling, a lot, of, a lot of awkward sit starts here too. So, knowing that certain movements like that basically add like a plus one to you know, the intensity of that volume. So if we can adjust our climbing to maybe minimize some of those movement patterns, that's really helpful. And getting into a more neutral wrist, rather than that like cocked over position or cocked back position, is really helpful. Or cocked back position is really helpful.
Speaker 2:If they're dealing with, you know, if they're coming back from this injury, looking at the terrain, they're on right, like just our, whether it's overhanging, whether it's vertical, like a little more slab, those are definitely things that we'd look at and those are maybe a little bit more subjective. But like off the wall, I think people should be doing like at least two days a week of some sort of complementary strength training like that, um, and keeping it, you know, at a reasonable intensity, um, but without like excessive volume, like without too many reps, you know yeah, and that's something that I've started to incorporate with, like my climbing training, is a bigger emphasis on strength training, especially, as you know, we're kind of approaching the prime, like rifle and spring seasons and summer seasons in Colorado.
Speaker 1:Give me some tips on my strength training, like what kind of stuff do you give to some of your clients and patients? As far as what strength training should we be doing in order to mitigate the risk of injury but also increase capacity?
Speaker 2:oh, that's a, that's an interesting question, I guess. Uh, I guess I'd want to know, like, what are you doing right now? Oh, man, let's take you and let. I guess, maybe let's keep it to like one one body area, right?
Speaker 1:um, okay, like on the theme of upper extremity well, okay, so upper extremity wise, um, one thing that I found was this might sound like kind of corny, but my biceps were like pretty weak, so previously I could only do like a 25 pound bicep curl. Um, and the place that I really like to climb a lot rifle Colorado is known for a lot of it's really odd and like thuggy climbing and I've also had previous tweaks and like injuries in my shoulders and I feel like it's probably like some kind of laboral involvement, so a lot of like overhead type stuff. Usually my rotator cuff is totally fine, so I've really, over the past couple of months, started to emphasize just straight up like bicep curls, which for a lot of time I was like. For a really long time I was like bicep curls are stupid and non-functional and people just do it to make their arms look bigger, right, that's definitely functional bigger arms yeah and then.
Speaker 1:So then I like kind of think about it. I'm like, well, an undercling is like literally exactly what a bicep curl is, and especially with rifle, where a lot of times you have to do an undercling, like kind of up at like your shoulder, and then really like draw that in and like eccentrically load your bicep and then like lunge to the next thing and it's probably a side pull where you're also going to be dead, cause all the, all the holds and rifle are basically like pointing the wrong direction is kind of like a good way to describe the climbing. So it's really thuggy, blocky climbing, tons of under clings, really slippery feet, so you're really holding a lot of body tension. So I've been doing basically a shitload of bicep curls, um, and then to work the antagonist of that movement, I've been doing dumbbell overhead press, um, and then, uh, dumbbell lateral raises as well.
Speaker 1:And typically I've been working more of like a strength kind of like sets and rep schemes. So I've been going down to, like you know, literally like sets and rep schemes. So I've been going down to, like you know, literally like sets of between like three and five um with a like a fairly high rpe yeah, yeah, I think I think that's.
Speaker 2:Uh, I would be in like pretty good agreement with that. You know, like just on the theme of biceps, right? Or you know, just our pulling muscles, I think climbers are getting like a pretty high dosage of you know, essentially body weight or like near body weight movements, right, if we're, if we're training pull-ups or for training, um, you know, if we're just climbing out there, so I look at, all right, how do we increase like the capacity of that muscle group so that all of our climbing is now at like a submaximal threshold, right? So if you're, if you're only capable of doing a bicep curl with, you know, 25 pounds, then like I've gotten stronger since then.
Speaker 2:Now I'm yeah, no but I mean, you know, yeah, I bet you do like 125. Now let's go with that. If you're always working at that, like you know, 80, 90%, like while you're climbing, you're going to be gassed out. You're. You know, we know you're going to be just yeah, it's not going to work.
Speaker 2:So I always look to increase that capacity. Come in with is they're doing low intensity reps, you know, till they're like blue in the face, right, and they're just not really seeing much return on that. So I look for that like strength-based approach, um, same thing, like maybe three to five reps range, um, really working on higher intensity but lower volume, right. So if we did a set of um like weighted uh, weighted hangs on a pull-up bar, right, you know, adding weight, um, I would look at cool, let's do, you know, three to five reps on that, based on like the difficulty of it for you. Let's add a little bit weight and let's do this slow um, so we can really get that that time under tension you know people are kind of familiar with. We can really start to cause some adaptation at that like musculoskeletal level.
Speaker 2:So that would be like one component of it, right, like we've just got to increase things strength-wise and then, like the secondary aspect is there's got to be some skill to it too. There's got to be some skill to it too. So if we're only training like heavy and slow, then we're missing out on, like some of those climbing movements that are, you know, a little bit, like you know, faster and more dynamic. So that would be like the other element of it is trying to train like that power component that isn't necessarily weighted. That's just like speed, velocity, right, moving quickly, uh, like training fast to be able to move fast you know um so those are.
Speaker 2:Those are things that I generally look at. I I see that these, like sustained isometrics, are really well tolerated. We get a lot of load um, without like too much movement, too many reps, which can be irritating and whether that's from a rehab perspective, whereas we're getting kind of back into that more performance mode, like across lots of different injuries. I see people do really well with that.
Speaker 1:Okay, so sticking with again like a little bit of a lower volume, if we're doing purely strength training in order to maximize, like motor unit recruitment and stuff like that, and then, when in doubt, decrease some variable, whether it's like range of motion or weight, in order to get familiarized with some kind of movement, etc, would you say. That's kind of like a way to sum that up yeah, yeah definitely.
Speaker 1:Do you have any tips for me to uh work on the plyometric aspect, because I'm like a super static climber, like people watch me climb and like literally like make jokes about how slowly I climb.
Speaker 2:What do you?
Speaker 1:got for me in that regard oh well, we're opposite climbers.
Speaker 2:I can't static anything to save my life. Um, something I see people that I've found to be pretty well is like take the, take the campus board right, and you know I'm sure there's like lots of controversy on whether people should be campusing things using finger, you know, using the rungs and whatnot. But put your feet on and suddenly we've taken away like one of the variables that can be injured, you know, can be leading that injury where the intensity is just like way too high, like way too much weight on our fingers or hands. And now you've got your feet on and you can work that like speed component or like that power component, right, and, like I said, like you you train it by moving fast, so like that's one way, um to go about it. Um, and people are like, oh cool, I can do this while I'm rehabbing. I'm like this is really controlled. This looks like climbing. It kind of feels like climbing. They're stoked on it. Lots of different, you know, hold types on there, so it doesn't have to be crimpy all the time.
Speaker 2:I see that to be pretty helpful, you know, if you were just like going back to the pull-up example, even adding a resistance band there to actually like help you achieve that fast pull-up, that pulling motion those would be kind of off the wall, like well, I guess, one example off the wall and one kind of on the wall right, those would be two things that come to mind right away those would be two things that come to mind right away Sweet, awesome, well.
Speaker 1:So this is us kind of wrapping up the part one, and then part two, we're going to talk all about wrist injuries. So, regarding things like injury patterns that you saw commonly see in your patients outside versus inside injury patterns, what is your ounce of prevention, what's your one little nugget to give people about preventing climbing injuries?
Speaker 2:I think you've got to. Well, I get one ounce, okay.
Speaker 1:You get one ounce. That's the tough part right, and a lot of times I spring this on people without telling them about it. So what's?
Speaker 2:the first thing that popped in your mind when I said that one ounce the first thing that comes to mind is like training, all the things we do with like a little bit of moderation.
Speaker 2:Um, obviously, like finger injuries come to mind. Uh, we see those a lot in climbers and people say, well, I, uh, I guess I should never train my full crimp because I think it's going to get injured and I go no, no, no, no, no, like we definitely need to train that. Just, you know, there needs to be some moderation in that. There needs to be some like way that we measure it. And the same would be true with our wrists, shoulder. You've got to train those like max effort positions or max effort movements, but not all the time, right. So that way, that way, when it comes time to use them, when you really do have to be at that like give it everything you got, moment, your body's already done that like several times over, and so we're not busting out like a new movement or a new skill without like the proper, like baseline training. So I don't know how you sum that up. Um, moderation, all things.
Speaker 1:That seems too cliche uh, actually I feel like this is very reminiscent of when I interviewed jared on the podcast as well, and his ounce of prevention was basically like toned down the psych a little bit. You know, like sometimes like climbing is just so fun that we go out and it's like kind of like what you're talking about with the craft boulders. You know, it's like you go out and you're spending six hours at the boulders because you're on your week-long climbing trip and then you climb six days out of six and there's six hour sessions at a time because you're hanging out with everybody, you're not tracking attempts and you're just like getting a hundred attempts at your limit, trying to get as much volume in as possible, and then you tweak something like a wrist, which is what we're going to talk about on part two. Yeah, well, cool I'm glad I'm.
Speaker 2:I'm glad I'm on the same page as jared yeah, I mean moderate the psych.
Speaker 1:I kind of like that, you know. Yeah, and like I think, I think the consistency is like a big piece too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, definitely all right, everybody.
Speaker 1:well, we're gonna wrap up this part one and then we're gonna move on to talking all about the wrist and how we can decrease the prevalence or even prevent wrist injuries. I hope that you enjoyed this episode of the Art of Prevention podcast, this episode of the Art of Prevention podcast. If you did enjoy and or benefit from some of the information in this podcast, please be sure to like, subscribe and share this podcast, or please give us a five-star review on any platform that you find podcasts. One thing to note that this podcast is for education and entertainment purposes only. No patient is formed and if you are having any difficulty pain, discomfort, etc. With any of the movements or ideas described within this podcast, please seek the help of a qualified and board-certified medical professional, such as your medical doctor or a sports chiropractor, physical therapist, etc.