Art of Prevention
Our mission is to decrease the prevalence of preventable injuries and athletes therein optimizing performance by decreasing the time that our athletes spend benched due to injury. We are going to distill information and practices from experts in the field of injury prevention. High level coaches and top performing athletes. We believe this information should be accessible to everyone so that we can reduce the rates of preventable injuries.
Art of Prevention
Shane Niksic on Innovation in Sports Coaching and Injury Prevention
Discover the transformative journey of Shane Niksik, who moved from being a collegiate athlete to a guiding force for athletes of all abilities. Shane's story is more than a career change; it's a testament to the power of community and determination. His experiences offer a profound look into the world of coaching, where the spirit of teamwork and the challenges of guiding diverse athletes come to life.
Explore cutting-edge advancements that are changing the way we understand and prevent sports injuries. From the reactive strength index to the impact of constant left turns on indoor tracks, Shane provides insight into the subtle yet significant factors affecting athletes. The episode discusses the use of technology like the exosurge device, offering affordable ways to measure jump strength and potentially reduce injury risks. Listen as we unravel the complexities of running biomechanics and the implications of foot strike patterns on injury rates, highlighting the importance of gradual training adjustments.
We also journey through the evolving landscape of training innovations and the latest nutrition trends. Learn about the rise of carbon fiber running shoes and the growing popularity of heat and altitude training techniques. Shane shares personal stories that underscore the role of balanced nutrition in athletic performance and the potential pitfalls of dietary fads. Lastly, Shane's passion project, his running company, aims to promote mental health awareness and support through the power of running, offering hope and resilience to individuals and communities alike.
support mental health at
https://run-4.com/
If you have listened to this podcast for any length of time you know that strength training is crucial for runners. However a major obstacle for many runners is not know what to do once they get to the weight room. This PDF seeks to change that. It will arm you with the tools you need to effectively strength train to get the most out of your runs.
use code PODCAST for a 20% discount at checkout at artofprevention.org/runners
Hello everyone and welcome to yet another episode of the Art of Prevention podcast and, as always, I have a very special guest with me today. And today I'm interviewing Shane Nixick, who has a very varied background, and we're going to be extracting some of the experience and wisdom that he's gained from all of these different, various experiences. So today I'm interviewing Shane Nixick and, shane, why don't you tell us a little bit more about who you are?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I guess our relationship kind of goes back to college I guess, even though we didn't really know each other back then. But I guess doing some research we found out we raced each other a couple of times and I guess we are one and one against each other. We may have to settle that one of these days.
Speaker 1:Oh God, as long as we're not pushing a stroller, ok.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. But yes, I ran in college against Nick, I ran at Colorado Mesa University and then after graduating I moved out to Austin, texas, where I guess my plan originally was to go into PT school. So I was running on a post-collegiate group down there called Austin track club and then worked at a PT clinic called a run lab and we did a lot of our all of our rehab and we can go into this a little bit later but like, the rehab was all based on gait analysis and we're working primarily with runners and triathletes and we had you know kind of regular clientele as well but like, basically, like 90% of our clientele were, uh, runners and it was like running related injuries, um, and then so I spent two years down there, decided I did not want to go into PT and I kind of talked to you a little bit about those reasons as well and I mean it's something I still like looking back on it, like it was probably more because I missed like the college, like team atmosphere of things. I was like I want to get into coaching and so, um, I guess, where I ran in school we were like a brand new program, like I was on the inaugural team there, and so it was a different experience, I guess, than than a lot of other runners, especially like in the conference that we were in which, like you know, western Adams minds, like all these teams that have been so good for so long, we were like this brand new program, starting from scratch, and so it was kind of a cool journey, like it was something I wouldn't trade for the world, like I got to kind of experience that growth starting from ground zero. And then, um, but yeah, so I decided I wanted to go back and get into coaching and I wanted to maybe experience a program that has been there and done that. And so I contacted Jen at Western, while also looking into their grad program up there, and so I ended up at your main rival school, western. So I was there for three years, did my grad assistantship for two years and then was a regular assistant coach for one year and the basically like our emphasis of study there is high altitude exercise, physiology and then I broke away from that a little bit in my thesis and my thesis was a little bit more specific to running and running related injuries, and so we could talk about that paper in a little bit, but my thesis was called the relationship between single leg reactive strength index and then overuse injuries and collegiate middle distance and distance athletes. So wrote that and then spent a year there just as a regular assistant coach, working at Mario's pizza so if anybody in Colorado has been up there, mario's Pizza is awesome.
Speaker 2:And then COVID happened, shut everything down. My wife, who was my fiance at the time, was going to nursing school on the front range and so we were kind of doing distance relationship. She graduated basically during COVID and then I just kind of didn't really know like I was going to lose potentially going to lose my coaching funding, which like wasn't much to begin with at Western, and so it was like I have to figure out, you know, a future here, and so I would have loved to stay in Gunnison, just cause, like I love the area. But there was the other problem was the hospital there didn't, uh, hire new grads Ands, and so we ended up just moving out to Grand Junction where I, you know, spent a lot of time and she could get a job out there and I ended up getting on with the coaching staff at Mesa. So I coached there for the last four years and then, yeah, here I am now.
Speaker 2:I've also, I guess, worked outside of like college coaching. I've worked with people with special needs, and so one of the athletes I've coached and helped kind of train over the years is a woman with Down syndrome, and so I don't know if I've told you this yet, nick, but she's awesome. So I started working with her in 2016. And then she had just gotten into running at that time in Austin, and then since then she's run 24 half marathons and then three full marathons and basically all of those races. She was the first, either the first person or the first woman with Down syndrome to finish them, so pretty cool. And then, um, one of my other, uh, former athletes and former I actually ran against them and then coached him at Western, but he's his name's Bryant Bird and he competed in the deaf world championships and, and so I coached him after he graduated for a couple of years, and so he went on to do some pretty cool things, like he got a gold, silver and then bronze medal at the world deaf championships in 2019,.
Speaker 2:I think so yeah, so that's that's a little bit about me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and such a varied background and I've always loved interviewing people with varied backgrounds so that we can kind of extract little bits and pieces from each one of those artifacts that you've had or artifacts of experience that you had, and then put those things together to help out other people. And I think that I really wanted to interview you for a couple of different reasons. One you've had time like really in it, so being a gait specialist in a physical therapy lab that specializes in runners and generating a lot of rehabilitation off of that, and then also the research and then coaching background that you have as well, and hopefully we can utilize some of that background experience to help runners hopefully stave off energy or injury or reduce their risk of injury. So why don't we start with talking a little bit about the paper that you wrote while you were over at Western, like what the heck is a reactive strength index for the uninitiated and uninformed?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's. It's basically a measurement of, like plyometric strength, and so you can measure it using like Newtonian physics, so just like jumping, and then measuring like airtime versus ground contact time, and that's the tool that we actually use, because we wanted to make it something that, like a, any school could use for measuring. Basically it's like an identifier for risk, injury assessment or risk.
Speaker 1:By plyometrics you mean basically like a jump strength, so the ability to land and then jump into the air as quickly as possible. That would be that reactive portion of the reactive strength index, and what you're saying is that you can measure that using some fairly readily available technology. I think you guys used an exosurge device which uses lasers and things like that to measure how long you're in the air and then how long you come down and how long it takes for you to come back down onto the ground. So then you can get jump height, you can get how long you're on the ground, et cetera. Is that correct?
Speaker 2:Yep, that's correct and that's like probably the most affordable way to do it.
Speaker 2:I think exosurge theFlight, the unit that we used it, costs like $300 maybe, and so you know, for an athletic program, like even if it was like at a college, or like at a high school level, like if you're really into this stuff, like as a strength coach, and you want to use this to measure, you know that's a pretty tool, um, relative to what else or what other tools people would normally use.
Speaker 2:So like, like, uh, force plates for instance, like that's kind of like the, the typical thing that people use, and I mean you can get now like non-in-ground force plates for fairly cheap. But there's still like and there's some some. There's some issues, I guess, with the G flight, that that you'd have to control to mitigate the problems. But like with a regular force plate that you just like jump on, that's like not in ground, like there's still movement possibility with that that can mess up the results or what surface that's that it is on can kind of alter the, the effects there. But yeah, I mean normally I guess the, the, the top tier thing, you'd use an in-ground force plate but not everybody has access to that and not everybody's got a spare 10 grand lying around to get one of those.
Speaker 1:So yeah, it's a fairly affordable option. Um, right, and you had a couple of interesting findings in that study, because it wasn't necessarily a direct correlation to injury, but there were some factors that were a little bit predictive of injury, right, yep.
Speaker 2:Yep, yeah, so we were. I wanted to basically isolate each leg during each of the measurements and then, um, I wanted to be as detailed as I could, so we went through, we divided everyone into uh, you know, into sexes, and then we identified, like, where the injuries were. So, were they at the knee, were they at the hip? Were they at the ankle? Um, and so we looked at that over the course of an eight week indoor season. Um, and, yeah, it was definitely interesting findings and I guess, initially going into it, I thought it would be the opposite, but it makes sense that that most of those injuries were on the right side after the fact, looking at it. But one thing that I would want to do, and I'll I guess we can explain that a little bit more to the people that have heard it.
Speaker 2:Um, but one thing that I would want to do going forward, or maybe someone else would be interested in doing this type of research going forward is looking at, okay, like how do these injury rates play out in outdoor track versus indoor track? Cause this is over the course of an indoor season and at Western we have our own indoor track and so and it's cold and awful in the winter, and so basically, like we're doing most of our running, especially workouts. We're doing like 99 of our workouts inside um, and then a lot of our mileage inside as well, on that indoor track, and so that's a lot of turning, and when you're doing repeats and I don't know if you ever did this, like tried to go right around the track if you're doing repeats inside, it's uncomfortable feeling Um. So yeah, I mean most of them you're going, you're going left right, and so that's anatomically, you have a kind of a weird thing going on right, Like not everything is even Um, and so there's going to be some some changes that happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one one would assume that just turning around would would be great and feel awesome, but it kind of feels like brushing your teeth with your left hand. It really.
Speaker 2:it just puts this weird feeling in your stomach but I like kicking the ball with your left foot, like if you're, if you're right footed, like it, it really does does feel that weird and it's kind of weird to to say that because, like running is like people think of it as like a whole body thing, but like turning right for a track runner feels very abnormal yeah, um, it's kind of like oh, what was the zoolander?
Speaker 1:I can't turn left but it's the opposite, you know um, but if we think about it, you know, biomechanically, if everyone just leans a little bit to the left, if you're standing hopefully you're not driving right now but well, it's okay if you're driving but don't do this. If you're driving, if you lean to the left, you'll notice that your left leg kind of bends a little bit and then your right leg kind of extends in order to meet the ground. And that's basically what we're dealing with repeatedly with high impact forces, as we're doing many, many intervals. And how, how big was the track at Western? I remember it being like we had a 200 meter.
Speaker 2:Okay, Um but it was 200 meters flat.
Speaker 1:Yeah, 200 meter flat versus banked is going to change some of those biomechanics. Um, when I first got to Adams, I want to say that the track was like 160 meters.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that old indoor gym that you guys had there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then luckily we got the bubble and everything like that and that really made a lot of things nicer. But we can just see why those biomechanics would change and then tell us a little bit more about what you thought was going to happen, so what your hypothesis was, and then why the results were so interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I originally thought that there was going to be more left lower leg injuries, and I thought that because, as you're turning left around the corner, you have to basically lean into that curb. And so my thought was that during pronation of that left foot and you can think about it like this, Like if you're running on a road and the road is kind of like, I guess, yeah, or a rocker shape to get the water off, water off, so if you're running on the right side of the road, your, your left leg basically has to go into excess pronation to get that big toe on the ground to push off right Versus your right leg. It's almost like it's banked. Same thing on the opposite side.
Speaker 2:So if you, if you run on the left side of the road, um, like you're going, I guess I don't know, if you run on the left side, your left leg or your left foot, it doesn't have to go as far into pronation to get that big toe off the ground where your right foot it has to go into excess pronation to get that big toe off the ground. So your posterior tib is going through excess stretching, Um and so, and that's like one of the most common injuries for high level runners Right Um and that's something we could talk about too is injury rates between like high level athletes versus your kind of like hobby jogger, recreational runner, or in your cohort.
Speaker 1:The injury rates were like really high too Um yeah, yeah, yeah, and and and.
Speaker 2:that's kind of just digging into the research, that's what it is almost across the board. Um, and it is kind of funny how into the research, that's what it is almost across the board. And it is kind of funny how, like injury rates they kind of follow all the way through. Like, no matter what type of runner you are, your chance of getting injured is is pretty high. It really where it changes is where you're going to get injured. But going back to the track, so if you're turning left, if you're leaning left, you would.
Speaker 2:My thought was that you would have to go into a little excess pronation on that left foot, which I think you do, but still your center of gravity is still shifted over that left leg. So it's not actually as bad as as I would. I was initially thinking. But if you're leaning left on the turn, now your center of gravity shifted all the way left. So your right leg, all of those forces on your right, right leg, basically the lever arm, is increased, and so the, the, the, basically the forces on all your joints, is increased because your left, your center of gravity, is shifted all the way to the left. So, and that's where we basically saw a huge increase in injury rates on the right side leg versus the left side leg injury rates on the right side leg versus the left side leg.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it was correlated with weakness on the left side. So a little bit of like mental gymnastics here. So the there was a higher incidence of right side leg injuries and that was correlated with weakness on the left side.
Speaker 2:Yep, yeah, and so with that one and I don't know how much you've experienced this just kind of working in the the you know rehab setting that you are.
Speaker 2:But I know when I was working in Austin it was almost like every I don't want to say every, but like probably 80% of the injuries. If someone had an injury on their right leg, they had some sort of corresponding weakness on their right leg. They had some sort of corresponding weakness on their left leg that like looked very funky, but then the injury actually showed up on the right leg. And so my kind of opinion on that is if the left leg is all funky and doing kind of like an abnormal movement, then the right leg is having to work extra hard to restabilize everything. So if you're becoming unstable even though eventually you'll probably get injured on the left leg too, just through like excess movement, your right leg is having to work extra hard to just restabilize the body. And so that's kind of. I guess what I am thinking was maybe going on with with that on the track, but also like just the center of gravity shift is was so big in that in that area.
Speaker 1:So yeah, if you think about if the center of center of gravity shift is on to the left side, then you're going to be utilizing the left side to propel further or propel more. But then if you get a weakness on that side due to over training or some kind of tweak or injury, and then you have to shift over to the right side in conjunction with that longer lever because that right side is reaching a little bit more, we could see how it would set the stage for an increase in biomechanical load. When we're training as hard as we can and on that knife edge of getting them as fit as possible, then those are the predisposing factors to something like an injury.
Speaker 2:Yep, yep, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And so I don't know, I was really excited with what we found, like it wasn't really what I was initially thinking in my hypothesis, but just like the fact that there was, like such, this dramatic increase in right leg injuries versus left leg injuries.
Speaker 2:And so that's where you know, going forward, I think it'd be really cool to look at like, well, how does that change during an outdoor track season where you are spending, you know you're spending less time turning just because the outdoor track is so much bigger and the turns are less dramatic. And so my kind of thought is that injury rates will still kind of stay similar, but maybe go down a little bit outdoor and then cross country hopefully go down significantly. But just with other research data, like, once you get injured somewhere, your likelihood of getting that same injury again goes up dramatically. So you know, people are continuously getting injured on the right leg due to track. Even though they switched to cross country, where they're not turning as much, they're still more than likely going to get injured on that right side if they sustain an injury.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and if you're lucky in the track season you can get injured on the right side, and then in cross country you can get injured on the left side.
Speaker 2:You know that's like even out the body a little bit.
Speaker 1:I think that was. That was my experience in running in college. Was you know, in track season I'd get injured on the right side and then, more often than not, I'd get injured on the other side the next season which is one of the reasons that I'm so passionate about this topic and injury rates are so prevalent. So what were some of the criteria that you stated Like, ok, well, this is an injury. Was it like mitigation or a decrease in training load for one week? Or I had to skip a workout, or I'm just always curious about what are those criteria for, hey, now you're injured Cause I always hated um. I would go into the training room and the trainer would be like, well, are you injured or are you hurt?
Speaker 1:And I was like what is this? Like I was like what are you talking about? Like I just want to like feel better, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So we had I basically had different levels of injury and so like I had like mild um, or it was basically like you know, you're feeling something, you're having to go to the training room for it, but you're able to kind of train, you know, 80 to 90%. And then there's ones where it's like okay, okay, like I have to take basically my workouts off now and I'm doing my workouts in the pool, but I'm able to do like my normal runs, all right if I get enough like warm-up and prehab in. And then where it's just like you're completely out.
Speaker 2:So I looked at like the injury intensity as well I don't think I found that much significance with like the actual intensity is just like the rates.
Speaker 1:I think stratification is a big thing, because when we look at things, maybe that's reactive strength index, or if we watch somebody's gait or we do some strength testing so I was like, oh, you have some weakness in this location. Or if you look at somebody's foot strike pattern which I know is something that we wanted to get into today as well it's like, oh, because of these biomechanical factors, you are putting more stress through these joints, these tissues, et cetera. So you have a higher risk of these types of injuries or injuries to these articulations and tissues. So what are your thoughts on foot strike patterns?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So that's, this is what a contentious issue, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, I I think it very much depends on the person. Um, like, like we say with everything, it's very interdependent.
Speaker 2:Um, but if you look at, if you dig into like injury rates and injury types relating to foot strike and this is kind of hard cause, like everybody trains differently but like basically across the board. So if you're like looking at like a season or a year, however, whatever timeframe you're looking at, almost all of them come back to like no matter what your chance of getting hurt, whatever like level of intensity of that injury is, your chance of getting injured over a year or over a season of training is like 80% as a runner, no matter what level you are. But if you look at recreational runners, their injury rates are, or their injury types are like 80% in like the knee generally or hip area. And then if you look at like elite runners, it's 80% in the foot and ankle or shin, so lower leg versus upper leg. And that corresponds to if you look at elite runners, 80% of their foot strike is mid foot, forefoot.
Speaker 2:If you look at recreational runners, 80% of their foot strike or 80% of them foot strike, rear foot, and so it's just different loading patterns on the leg. And this became I don't know it became big a few years ago with Born to Run right, when everybody into this barefoot you know and, and I mean I'm, I am a proponent of, I think that is the natural way the human body is supposed to run. But there is problems with shifting people or like like just saying like, oh hey, you're a heel striker and you've been having, like you know, knee issues. Let's switch you to to forefoot or midfoot striking.
Speaker 2:Most people think that midfoot is forefoot, so like, if they go from heel to it, what they think is midfoot, they're going to just shift to their toes and so there's a lot of training, yeah, and they're just going to blow up their calves, blow up their Achilles and, like I mean, if you've been running for 20 years on your heel and you make that drastic change, like that's, that is a huge change and that is just asking for an Achilles or a calf problem, probably in a couple of weeks or sooner, you know. So it's something that, like you know, I think it depends Like, if you're, if you're a runner and like you've, you've been running on your heel for most of your life you don't really have any issues, then you could probably do it, um, and then, uh, you know, if you are, probably the smart thing would be to first say, okay, like, heel striking isn't really what's causing your injury, it's probably more that you're landing so far out in front and so you're over striding right. So if you're landing way out in front of you, your center of gravity shift behind. So, again, it increased that lever arm and you've got a lot more torque and tension going on in, uh, in the knee. Really, cause that's the main thing that's loading is the quad, um. So if you can get your foot strike underneath you, then that should take a lot of that. It should shorten that lever arm and decrease the the injury chance.
Speaker 2:Um, and so there's been one kind of like tried and true method of that is and I'm sure you've probably heard of this is like the cadence. So like I know people that like read it and they're like, oh, like, I got to hit 180. And it's like that's. You know, if you put it on a bell curve then yeah, like the peak of that bell curve is 180, but like you have people that are different heights, different shoe size, like all kinds of stuff, so like different leg lengths, like, so I think, instead of like 180, it's like you have to find what's better for you. And if you're less someone that's running at a cadence of like 140 or 150, don't just shoot up to 180, like maybe shoot up, maybe like bring it up to like 155, 160, or you know one set, like bring it up incrementally and then see how that feels.
Speaker 2:But where I was talking about, like, where I think the natural way to run is on that midfoot, if you take anybody, take them out of shoes and have them run on a hard surface there, I almost guarantee you they're going to shift to to a barefoot style run, or, if you have them, just jump right. So if you, if you have them, just jump in place right, they're going to basically be you can't jump off that heel, and so that's kind of a product of modern shoes and having that really high cushion, that we've seen a transition to most people now running more rear foot and it's not we can go into that. That's like a big tangent that we can go down with shoes and technology and cushioning and all that.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, and I love that you. I love a couple of things about the things that you just said. Um one, the nuance with foot strike and high levels of running. So you know, approximately 80% of high level runners are more of that mid foot or forefoot, but that doesn't mean that it's 100%. It doesn't mean that everyone is a mid foot or forefoot striker and it doesn't mean that you have to be a midfoot or forefoot striker to be a high level runner. Right. And if you try and change from heel strike to forefoot strike just because you think that's what you need to do in order to become a better runner, the likelihood of you injuring yourself increases.
Speaker 2:Yep, yep, yeah, because you're you're adapted to running in a certain gait. Now, if that gate pattern is injuring you there, you know, maybe making an adjustment is what you need to do, but it's not going from like to A to Z right, like you have to take steps in in in between to strengthen the body and then cause that.
Speaker 2:It's a completely like the heel striking versus midfoot striking is a very different loading pattern, and so you have to prepare, though you have to prime the body for that If you, if that's something that you're you're going to do, if you are a you know, getting repeated knee issues and maybe it is beneficial for you, but, like I said, like probably the better thing would be to just try and get your your leg underneath you a little bit more, cause that's going to just decrease the load overall.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I like that you talked about not just jumping from A to Z. Typically, when I have a client in the office and their cadence is a little bit on the lower end, I'll have them improve or increase their cadence by approximately 10%. So if they're at 150, an increase in 10% is 15 strides per minute, so then that brings them up to 165. If they're at 160, then that brings them up to 176,. You know, as opposed to just going up to a quote, unquote, perfect number, that is actually just an average number that Jack Daniels found amongst elite athletes but the full range and spectrum was from like one 55 to like one 80 something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yep, and if we?
Speaker 1:look at some of the data from some of the elite, like Olympians who are wearing their watches during their amazing, like Olympic races. It's like, oh so their cadence was one 95. Like what the heck? And it's like, oh yeah, this was a race pace and they're running faster than you can sprint a hundred meters.
Speaker 2:Yeah's someone that's maybe like five foot five and so they're having to hit a higher cadence just to to get around.
Speaker 2:And they've got shorter legs, like they can get everything moving or around a little bit quicker, right. So like, yeah, shorter people tend to have those higher cadences and it, you know, definitely with race paces it goes up a little bit, but that's something that when you do talk to people about cadence, it's. It is interesting that people think like, oh, like, if I increase my cadence, I'm going to increase my speeds a ton and it's like not, not really, like it does increase a little bit, um, depending on how fast you're going, but generally, like, if you're doing like, just like your normal kind of running pace. So if you're running anywhere from, like you know, we'll just say like a standard, like nine minute mile, 10 minute mile, all the way down to like an eight minute, seven minute mile, you're not, you're not really at a race body shape, I guess, and you're not needing to have that that massive, uh, I guess turnover, so like the, the range doesn't really change that much.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, it's kind of like RPMs in a car, you know if you're in second gear, you can hit 9,000 RPMs and you're going to be going 35 miles an hour. You know whereas, if you shift upwards and you're in fourth or fifth gear and you're going that same number of rpms after you've, you know, gradually increased in your speed, then you might be going more like 80 miles an hour yeah, it's just the rate of turnover of the legs.
Speaker 1:It's not an indicator of your actual speed, right? And I love that you talked about like shoe changes and things like that, because you know, especially after born to run, like I'll tell you my personal story like I read born to run and then in college I was like I need to be in a barefoot minimalist shoe right and I had just flagrant achilles issues that plagued me throughout all of my running career, you know, and to this day I cannot run in a flat shoe. So I would love to be able to run in a flat shoe because it's so in vogue and they're much more affordable and available on the market, but every time I do my Achilles will flare up. So for me, like I have to have at least a four to six millimeter heel toe drop or else my Achilles will start barking at me. And if I think back to my like school days when I was developing the length in my Achilles as I was becoming skeletally mature, I was running in like a 14 millimeter heel toe drop.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, yeah. When we grew up, all of the shoes were like at like 14 millimeter, like yeah.
Speaker 1:It might as well be like an Olympic lifting shoe, but squishier, you know Right. So it just wouldn't make sense for me to go from that to a fully flat shoe. I mean, I can walk around and you know lift in a flat shoe, but if I'm going out for a run of any length of time then you know I have to have a little bit of heel toe drop, just because of my individual needs for my Achilles specifically.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, yeah. So I think, luckily for me, I'm a couple of years older than you and so I got into the whole barefoot minimalist shoe thing when I was still in high school and so when I was still growing, and so you know, I did have some Achilles issues, but then it really just like I think doing it earlier while you're developing is is an important thing. Like if you develop or you're wearing like high heel drop shoes, then you're going to develop kind of that shorter cap, achilles ratio and and and be more prone to injuries. If you do switch to to minimal shoes once you're developed, right, um, or you'll have to go go through it, like if you want to switch, you have to, you have to take time. You can't just go from like one extreme to the other oh yeah, and I've got.
Speaker 1:You know, I've got a surgical ankle, so it's like you, geez. You know it might take the rest of my life, but you know what? What are some of your opinions on shoe wear, especially being a coach over the last couple of years and seeing this just crazy innovation in training shoes and and carbon fiber plates and all these things. Like did you ever have any athletes just show up day one of practice and it's like, all right, guys, we're going for our first easy day jog and they've got some carbon fiber plate shoes on and they're like let's freaking go, let's get it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, every freshman is basically we. I've had a few athletes come in where it's just like, yeah, they're wearing carbon shoes, just on their standard, like, just like a shakeout run, and they're wearing carbon shoes, and I'm, oh boy, it's, yeah, it's, it's, it's a funny, I don't know. Freshmen are always and that's they, they've always been like that, right? So your freshman in college has to show up and, just like you know, be the be the new big boy on campus, and and then eventually they, they chill out a little bit and uh, but yeah, no, it's, I think, mostly for me, right?
Speaker 2:like jealousy, right like I, I missed the cut a little bit and and uh, but yeah, no, it's, I think, mostly for me. Right, like jealousy. Right Like I, I missed the cut a little bit. Like I ran very close to four minutes in the mile and I swear if I had those shoes and I could have done it. But no, not it's, it's, it's crazy. I mean, the whole the whole running world at the high level has changed. Like world records is just being broken, seemingly like every big race.
Speaker 2:Now, um, and I mean it, it like it's, it's it's a combination of a couple things. Right like, I think, social media podcasts, like there's a lot more education out there for coaches, where I think 10, 15 years ago, coaches were just doing what their coaches were doing and there wasn't really that much of like learning from other minds. It much of like learning from other minds. It's just like learning from like where you came from, and especially the high school level. It's like, well, like you know, I ran a marathon once, so I guess I'm like the most. Or like this English teacher ran a marathon once, so I guess he's the most you know experienced person with running, so he's going to go coach the college cross country team.
Speaker 2:Now, right and so, but now it was social media and podcasts and there's just like so much knowledge out there that I think across the board coaching has just gotten better and people are trying new things and whether those things work or not, but people are trying new things and experimenting and just high school kids. We've seen a massive improvement. But I think it's that mixed with the shoes right, Because the shoes are. It is insane what people are running now.
Speaker 1:They're lighter, they're literally faster. They can improve efficiency Literally running on a spring essentially you know, like a carbon plated spring yeah.
Speaker 1:And that brings up another topic when it when it when we can, when it comes to trying out different things, training wise and different training stimuli, because I know a lot of your research endeavors and a lot of the research that you helped out with was centered towards altitude training, and now it seems like, you know, altitude training is certainly, you know, in vogue, but heat training is really coming back Right. So you've got people like David Roche, who's, you know, doing cycling workouts with a big old puffy coat on and things like that, and saunas are obviously like a, a big ticket item for a lot of people as well. What are your thoughts on those things?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's the new, uh, the new old, I guess live high train, low, right. So I mean, I think it, if, if used properly it can, it's probably better and more applicable to most more people than altitude training, right, like altitude training, training is yeah, heat training is yeah, cause, like, if you think about altitude training, really you get the most benefit from it with the live high, train, low model. But, like I mean, you were at adam state, how realistic was that for you guys? Right, like you, you lived at 7600 feet there, right, or 7500 feet, whatever it was, yeah, but could you get anywhere that was low elevation relatively quickly?
Speaker 1:no, I mean, if you drove for four or five hours, then you could get somewhere that was low elevation relatively quickly. No, I mean, if you drove for four or five hours, then you could get somewhere that was lower but still technically at altitude Right.
Speaker 2:So, exactly. So there's like a handful of places in the world where, like live high train low is actually feasible. Right, it's like big bear, california. You can drop down in an hour and get down to like sea level. Um, in Gunnison we had Montrose, so like you could be at 7,800 feet and then, in an hour, drop down to like 4,400 feet or whatever Montrose is that, um, but even then, like 4,400 is still kind of at altitude. Um and like, now you're, as an athlete, right, you're sitting in a car for an hour to get to practice, and that's not the most ideal situation for the body, and then you're done, and then you got to drive an hour back and so for recovery purposes, it's really really hard to do. Flagstaff is another place where people can do it. Sorry, dogs, but it's just not really that realistic of a thing from for most people do. It's really cool an idea, like in in, in theory I guess, but in practice it's almost impossible. Um and so like.
Speaker 2:But altitude, I, I guess the adjustments that we made in college, right, or you know, at western right, like we never went down to to montrose, utilize Live High Train Low and you guys never went down to utilize Live High, train Low. So it was just training high and so, coaches, as an adjustment, what you had to do was basically just increase that rest period and then we're probably doing more shorter interval reps than longer interval reps that someone would maybe do at sea level. Right, because you can do longer reps and then get away with it when at altitude, if you're doing longer reps, it's you're going to run slower, like you're going to be running kind of closer to like altitude pace, and when our big races of the year are down at sea level, you do have to kind of get into that rhythm and feel what it's like to race a. You know, if you're an elite, uh, elite distance male athlete, right, race a. You know, if you're an elite, uh, elite distance male athlete, right, like you gotta, you gotta feel the pace of like a 1340 5k, which you're not going to hit that up at altitude, right. So, um, shortening those uh reps in length and then increasing the recovery time, that's kind of how coaches have to mess with that. A little bit to to get it to work at altitude, but it can still be done. Bit to to get it to work at altitude, but it can still be done, but heat basically it's.
Speaker 2:It's funny like the, the, the main, the initial stimulus that happens with altitude is the same thing that happens with heat, so it's heat shock protein and so that's kind of like the main first domino that then goes into, you know, creating more EPO and then creating more red blood cells and all that. So heat shock protein is stimulated by stress to. Those main stressors are altitude and heat, and so basically it's just a different type of stress that's then creating the same metabolic pathway that then increases more red blood cells and more mitochondria and more vasculation and stuff like that. But what's interesting in research is it does seem that heat exposure actually lasts longer than altitude, which is kind of interesting. So like, if you do altitude exposure, the, the, the improved or the the benefits that you have decrease at a quicker rate than they do if you do heat exposure.
Speaker 1:Interesting and I definitely got, with my running background, got pretty hefty doses of both. So I grew up just north of Houston where it was muggy and hot and we were doing we were in high school doing 10 to 14 mile long runs in 100 degree heat with 95% humidity. I remember sweating as we walked out before we even started the run. And then I went up to altitude and honestly, there was no transfer benefit, it was just, I mean, some of the physiological changes were there, but I think the underlying mechanisms by which we achieve those physiological changes. Developing those mechanisms took me years.
Speaker 2:Yep, yep, yeah, and that was something that I definitely noticed as a coach at Western was like we're going to get this kid from C-level and they were pretty good at C-level but then that first year is just brutal for them and it's a big learning curve. And then that first year is just brutal for them and it's a big learning curve. And then that second year is really like where they start to excel and start to see the benefits of altitude. Yeah, and that was pretty much across the board. And then you take kids that were from altitude that came up. You know that that came to Gunnison. It was like it was just an easy transition.
Speaker 2:But yeah, that that sea level to altitude, like you probably felt like more normal after a couple of weeks. But then to actually get the benefits of altitude and be able to train up there, and that's like you're probably getting benefits at sea level with, you know, increased like red blood cell count and blood volume and all that. But it, how it translates to out to altitude, is really probably more just translated to sea level, being able to be, you know, uh, have have improvements but like, yeah, I don't know, like it, that it you still if you're coming up to sea level altitude. There's a big adjustment there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then you know, training wise, you know it was such a great stimulus. However, racing wise, racing wise, I mean it probably took me three or four years to just get used to racing at altitude, right, um, and then it was like I feel like I just hit the conversions. Basically, um, whereas you know individuals that were native like altitude people, like people from evergreen colorado or from alamosa or from elevation, they would run, this time at altitude, and you're like holy crap, this person's gonna be a mutant when they go down to sea level. And then they run like the same time right, yeah yeah yeah, well, that's another.
Speaker 1:If you want to get into a contentious subject that people are always arguing about, it's altitude conversions, oh yeah yeah, I mean yeah, and then the people like from altitude are like no, I just had a bad run, you know, and it's like really had like four bad runs every time you go to sea level, you know yeah, I mean there are people that thrive at altitude and then can't race at sea level and then there are people that, like those conversions do kind of equate to what they they do at sea level.
Speaker 2:But yeah, it's, it's another. It's another thing where it's like it kind of depends on the person and and I think for me on that one, it really like. I feel like if you're an altitude coach and you're not really training at those sea level paces, like you can get your athletes to run well at altitude where they can get those conversions, but if they're not doing reps at that sea level pace, they're going to go down to sea level and it's just going to be a shock to the legs and you're running so much faster, like, I think, in a 10 K for women, right, like if they run, women run a 10 K at Gunnison or Alamosa, and then they do it at sea level, the conversions like two minutes, so you're having to run two minutes faster. In a 10 K or five K is one minute, right, and for men it's like 50 seconds. Like 50 seconds in a 5k is a lot of time. That's a.
Speaker 2:That is a big change in the biomechanics, right, and so you know, I think, that coaches that were really good at teaching someone, teaching an athlete, that, hey, like we're in shape to do this, but you have to be able to hit these speeds, hit this cadence, um, at sea level, like, and, and you're kind of supplementing in that area, those were the kids that I think did really well once they went to sea level. But kids that had just kind of an you know, I think, form kind of kids that I saw that had a weird kind of form at altitude, that transition to sea level where they couldn't run as fast Like. Those are the kids that didn't, I think, really run as fast down there, but yeah, Now, heat being the more practical option, we'll kind of go through here.
Speaker 1:So heat is described as that kind of eustress, that good stress, that good physiological stress to the body. In the context of injury prevention, is this still a good stress or is this just added stress? It's like, hey, we just need to be focusing on improving running mileage, like so. I guess this would be a question where the answer would be catered more towards high school athletes or coaches, or even like the recreational coach is there going to be a huge benefit to doing a bunch of heat training with a heat suit or a bunch of sauna things, things like that? Or should we just stick with the basics, like doing the right things as far as increasing running mileage, increasing running intensity or strength training, et cetera, to try and ward off or, you know, make the best attempt possible at decreasing that injury prevalence?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think there's definitely a right way and a wrong way to use heat stress. Um, and you could think of it like this right, like, if you're going to go up to altitude and try and run fast, like you're not going to run fast, the altitude is going to hold you back. If you try and run fast, if you're in Houston in the summer and you're trying to just like time, your runs to 3 PM every day. Just because you're trying to just like time, your runs to 3 pm every day. Just because you're trying to get that heat stress, you're not going to like, you're going to lose fitness because you're not going to be able to do what you would do, like if you went out at six in the morning and did it. Right, like you're going to be able to run faster. You may get heat stress, which does have certain benefits, but you may get heat stroke too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you may get heat stroke, like you may push it too far past that, that that you stress right to where? Now it's just like excess stress, that you know if you do have a lingering thing that that isn't recovering very well and boom, now you have an injury Right. Or like, again, you're just holding back your, your training. So, and I think there's not a ton of research on this yet, and I think this is where I think like there's an open window in research that, like, we can really dive, like research should go towards this and see if there is benefits, like if you can get the same amount of benefit if you're doing like post-exercise sauna or post-exercise like warm bath, right, like actually one of my cohort in grad school did this like they were, they did exercise and then they did a warm bath afterwards and they found some positive benefits. But it was a pretty small subject pool and that was at altitude already. So it's like now you're kind of double dipping, so like where are they actually getting the benefit? And you know, or I think the I can't't remember, but I think his population group was, um, general population people versus elite athletes. I think elite athletes that's probably. Like if you're trying to do heat stress, altitude stress and train at altitude that's probably too much, but I don't know. I mean, you'd have to look, someone would have to look into that. But if you're at sea level and you're going up to altitude, you know, or or or just trying to get those same benefits like altitude provides, I think you know one thing you don't want to do is sacrifice your training in order to get those benefits. And so if you're, if you're trying to do like your workouts in high intensity, like your high intensity workouts in high heat and high humidity, that's probably not a good idea because you're going to limit what you can do training wise. So you'd want to do it to where maybe you're. You're doing it on your easy, moderate runs, but is that increasing your, your body temperature enough? I don't know.
Speaker 2:Um it, the answer may be like doing a post-exercise sauna or a post-exercise heat bath, but, um, I mean like and that's I'm I'm definitely not advising that to everybody Like you have to be smart about what you're doing there. Like hydration becomes a factor, like I don't know, like if you're doing a high exercise, high intensity exercise, and then you go into a hot bath afterward thinking it's going to benefit you and you're not drinking enough, you're not getting enough electrolytes and water like that could probably be a dangerous thing too. So, uh, I think there there's definitely more research that needs to be done there to find like a proper protocol and a safe protocol for that. But I think that would be ideally. The best scenario, just theoretically, is post exercise heat bath, like heat exposure to where you're. You are getting that same that that that uh, enough heat stress to benefit you, but it's not affecting your training If that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think this goes to our tendency, almost as human beings, to major in the minors. If you will think oh man, you know this person or that person is doing heat training, so I'm going to do heat training now.
Speaker 2:Or every, every kid nowadays is like oh, threshold, like double T, I got to do double T, I got to do double threshold all the time and it's like, well, I mean that maybe there's a role for that for you somewhere. But like, I mean, you're like the people that are really benefiting that from that are like elite Olympians and do you have the capabilities yet to handle that? Um, maybe, maybe not, maybe at the college level people do, but it's you know, it's I don't know.
Speaker 1:There's always little fads going on and running and it's kind of interesting to see how they take, take form over time oh yeah, I mean, I think when I was in school, obviously there was the minimalist running fad, um, if you will, which some really good things are kind of here to stay with that, but followed by hoka yes, like it followed, like just a couple years later, by the complete opposite the pendulum keeps swinging right, you know, um, and then the fad from the physical therapy sphere was corrective exercise.
Speaker 1:You know, to me, I would go to the training room and I would do corrective exercise, which was super low load, high rep, so not a high enough load to actually like get an adaptation in my connective tissues, um, and it's like trying to correct like small biomechanical nuances or something like that, and it just didn't ever work. You know, right, the. The major things that I was missing out on, though, was like my sleep sucked. My protein intake was not requisite or commensurate to the amount of work that I was performing, and I got injured all the time. You know, it's as simple as that. It's like my diet and my sleep sucked, and I got injured.
Speaker 2:I was going to say that's. Another one is like diets and how those fads kind of enter into into into athletes lives and how they can affect things. Yeah, yeah, that's an interesting one and another contentious one.
Speaker 1:Well, so, like for some of your athletes, what were some of the, what was some of the advice that you would give them when you were coaching? Yeah, I mean, I know that there is like a little bit of a lane thing where it's like, yeah, I know that we're not nutritionists or anything like that, but there is also some pretty low hanging fruit as far as, like, you can give advice on, like, general nutrition practices, you know oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean it's, you know, whether it was supplementing or diet.
Speaker 2:I mean my, my big thing I try to emphasize with my athletes is, like you know, you are all poor. Most of them are poor college kids. Some of them had, you know, wealthier parents were able to, to you know, get healthier food but, like most of them were, like you know, living off a budget or eating out of the calf Right and the calf cafeteria food is probably like it's just not the best right, like it's all white grains.
Speaker 1:There's a stigma, and that stigma is there for a reason you know. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I don't know. I mean I don't think it's as bad, I don't think it's like the worst thing that they could eat, like there's definitely like ways to make it healthy. And I do kind of give props to Sodexo and Sodexo is like the main company that does that for like 99% of colleges. And then you know they, they have done a good job. They've done a better job than when I was in school. I remember it was just like we had a burger station, we had a pizza station, we had like a pasta station and then it was like a make your own salad sub kind of thing. And then now I go into the cafeteria and they have like a vegan specific area and then they have like a paleo specific area and they still have the burgers and fries and pizza and you know white pasta and just regular, probably high fructose like pasta sauce. But you know it's, there's ways that you can, that you can eat healthy in there. But I mean, like we, you know we'd have.
Speaker 2:I had an athlete that was like eating Lucky Char charms for like breakfast, lunch and dinner and it's like, but I just like love lucky charms and it's like, well, like you're not getting like what you're not getting what your body needs, you know, and he's injured all the time. And so he started to eat a little bit healthier and and and got. He's actually really thriving now post post-graduation, um, but he started to do better towards the end of his college career and now he's running post-college and doing a little bit better. But, um, but yeah, I mean it's I don't know like I would I try to steer him towards real food as much as possible.
Speaker 2:Like, try and stay away from the process stuff. I mean, that's something that coaches and strength coaches and PTs have been telling people forever and now it's becoming more of like a big thing on the national, national thing on the national scale. But, um, you know, people have been saying that forever, like, try and stay away from processed stuff, try and eat real foods. Um, and that was my big thing, like I, I've had vegan athletes, I've had paleo athletes. I think there's there's ways to do those properly, but most of the time, if you're just like following a fad and doing it, you're you're not going to do it right.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, and I mean, if we're talking about, like fads, the nutrition sphere is just riddled with them, you know, and there's, there's, there's low carbon, there's high carbon. You know, I think right now, the, the, the in vogue thing would be low carb diets and carnivore diets. Yeah, and we've got, you know, endurance athletes that are like oh yeah, I'm going to do a high fat diet and become, quote, unquote, fat adapted. Yeah, you know, and so far, the majority of the literature is pointing to yeah, so if you want to decrease your performance, then go right ahead.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think there was a paper like a year or two ago which basically, like in the race walkers, right, you know, and I'm gonna put the seal on that one put the kibosh on it. So I mean that's like if I have like low carb athletes, like I, I definitely, as a physiologist, like I have the background, like knowing the research, like I can steer them towards that a little bit. But I mean I think, like, if you're going to do extremes, like, or if you're going to do a diet, change like, try to avoid the extremes. Yeah, I think you know.
Speaker 2:Again, like I, I think you can have a quality vegan diet. That you know you have to work really hard at it. It's an uphill battle. Yeah, it is an uphill battle, um, but you could do it and, and honestly, like most high level athletes that I know that have done vegan diets, they do all right for a little bit, but most of them do end up kind of switching back to more of a standard healthy, healthier diet or like a pescatarian diet, um, well, it's just.
Speaker 1:It's just so much easier, you know, to to meet protein requirements, to meet carbohydrate requirements, when you're not basically like blocked by the sheer volume of fiber or you get the kind of like cheater vegans where it's like, oh yeah, I mean I hit my macros and it's like yeah, but 25, yeah, that's the classic. You know, the Oreo vegan is the classic or potato chip vegan, where it's like, yeah, I'm a vegan, vegan's really healthy.
Speaker 2:And it's like you're eating Oreos and well, and that's like right now and this is like something that's like I'm, you know, my, my wife is a full vegan. She's like she, and she's been a full vegan for like nine years I think now, and so, like primarily, I eat vegan cause she like makes most of our food, but she's like a very, very like health conscious vegan. And I mean, since we've had kids, it's been a little bit harder to like make all of our food like as healthy as we wanted, but just cause we don't have that time, but I mean I, I will still eat. You know, whatever someone like, if someone gives me something or someone cooks me something, like I'm going to eat it, but so I'm not like I'm probably, I'd say, like a 90 vegan, which like I'll drop a steak in your mailbox.
Speaker 2:Well, vegans will get upset with me for saying I'm a 90 vegan, like I was not vegan, but basically, like I'm 90, I would say plant-based I guess, um, but I mean, yeah, like it's right now, it's always it's like you're looking at if you want to do vegan. Now there's so much just like processed stuff that's like pushed to you. It's like all this fake meat, um, and and like fake cheese. Most vegans I know don't eat the fake cheese because it is pretty nasty. I don't know if you've ever had vegan cheese, man.
Speaker 1:I've tried it, it's not.
Speaker 2:It's not for me, it's just yeah, I mean, if you want to, if you want to go taste something that tastes like chemicals, try vegan cheese. It's it pretty brutal.
Speaker 1:So this was a cashew. At one point it's like what?
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I can't, can't do that. But I mean I, you know, there there is healthy ways to do it and there is healthy, there is ways to get the amounts of protein and the different varieties of protein that you need. And that's, that is one stigma. That's like people do scare away from more plant-based stuff. It's like you're not going to get the variety of protein that you need. It's like you know, if you're, if you're eating literally the same thing, then maybe you're going to miss out on a couple of the the the vital proteins, but like if you mix up your diet at all, like you're going to get enough or you're going to get the variety that you need. Now it's more of a question of are you getting enough?
Speaker 1:So and with things like supplementation, like it's, it's like, yes, it can be done, but you're going to have to be.
Speaker 2:You have to know what you're doing. You have to work at it.
Speaker 1:And I'd say, if you're tracking, if you're, if there was an individual that probably needed to be those vegetarian or vegan individuals, but then that you know kind of encroaches on the topic of disordered eating and overtracking and being overly psychologically fixated on those types of things in conjunction with overly fixated on something like your weight, which you know.
Speaker 1:I've been listening to coaches um, which you know I've been listening to coaches so especially, yeah, which you know, in light of the litigation that recently has gone through against people like alberto salazar, like this was a huge, you know main ticket item where it's like, yeah, nike probably paid out seven, eight figures because of that, deservedly so, yes, so it's something where you know if someone is a coach or you know there, you know of an athlete that might be trending in that direction and it's like you need to refer them to the proper sports dietitian or sports psychologist or both, in order to get them the health that they need, the the help that they need for the health that they need right, yeah and that's something I I I think college athletics is going in a better direction with that now and I think a lot of that is like the, the knowledge and education of coaches.
Speaker 2:But I mean it wasn't that long ago that like I mean you had old school coaches like preaching to women that like they, they're not going to do well until they lose their period, right, yeah, I mean I I heard that from old school coaches on a number of occasions.
Speaker 2:Most of those guys are now out of the sport, but that was like that was that was a belief like not that long ago.
Speaker 2:That like for female athletes, like you're not going to do well until you lose your period, just like, that's, that's insane and you're setting up that person for now long-term issues, the rest of their life, um, but yeah, I, I don't know kind of scary, but I do think again that like the promotion of that is now very much I don't think it's like fully out of the coaching system, but I do think that, like the vast majority of like younger coaches definitely like understand the female body a little bit more to like understand, like that's like maybe short-term gains, yeah, they will have a little more to like understand, like that's like maybe short-term gains yeah, they will have a little, but like, long-term ramifications are just not so you're gonna worth it yeah, you're gonna have a successful athlete for like maybe a year or two before they fall apart and then they're done for good, versus like, okay, let's look at like building up for long case like success.
Speaker 2:So I mean you can. Yeah, women can be more successful long-term if they, if they are healthy.
Speaker 1:I think, the growth of like systems in these organizations and, having you know, 10, 15 years ago there was no such thing as an in-house nutritionist or sports psychologist or anything like that, and now a lot of teams, even at the division two level, have those individuals in place for giving proper advice regarding things like healthy eating habits and caloric intake to stave off red ass and things along those lines.
Speaker 2:Yep, yeah, and definitely needed more. I mean, I know you guys had, you guys had like sports psychologists at adams yeah, zoolog brian zoologer.
Speaker 1:He's awesome.
Speaker 2:I need to get him on this podcast, but he's a hard guy to tack down, you know yeah, but that was like I mean, at mesa we didn't have that, at western we didn't have that. Um, I would still like d1. That's probably. I know that's pretty accessible everywhere. But I think d2 is still probably like maybe 10 of programs have access to those things. But it is growing, um, and I think adams is a good like forerunner in that at the d2 level to to get that for athletes. But yeah, definitely needed throughout the rest of college athletics and I'm not sure where that's at in division three but I would assume probably similar to division two yeah, so All right, man, we are coming up on an hour of recording and I've had an awesome time picking your brain on all these things.
Speaker 1:Now, at the end of every podcast, I ask the people the terrible task of if we had to distill all of the things that we talked about, which our topics ranged from foot strike to shoes to reactive strength indices. If we were to distill all these topics down into an ounce of prevention for somebody listening, to just wrap it all up, what would be your ounce of prevention for those listening?
Speaker 2:Oh, man, I'd say there's a little bit of truth in everything and uh. But you can definitely, like you gotta avoid extremes and you know, maybe if someone's telling you something that like well, this worked for them, like maybe try and find an expert first that understands it a little bit more, um, especially with stuff like foot strike, um, but yeah, I mean, I guess that would be my. My main thing is like don't just like dive into, to people's trends or um or uh, I guess new, new wave philosophies that they're they're fully invested in, just like fads.
Speaker 1:I guess Don't dive fully into fads, maybe I just a little bit on it and uh, before we take off here, tell us a little bit more about run for life and where people can find you before we take off here, tell us a little bit more about run for life and where people can find you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I recently, so I'm out of coaching. Now I've got two kids and, um, I, although like coaching is like that's like where my heart is and I think eventually, like I want to go back to doing that, um, it'll probably be, um, just at a different point in my life. Um, so it's two, two young kids. It's it's really hard to just be gone on weekends, um, and then my wife is a night nurse, which makes it almost impossible, especially like for parents out there, listening to like the cost of childcare nowadays just insane. So, uh, basically I'm a primarily stay at home dad. Now I'm still teaching part-time at the college, um, but, yeah, so in my spare time, which I don't really have, I started a running company called run for athletics and, um, a lot of this is kind of based on what I've done in the past few years. So, as a coach, I actually I did lose a student athlete to suicide, um, two years ago, um, and then, as an athlete, I lost a teammate to suicide as well, and so it's something that I mean, I don't I don't know how much you experienced this, but like it's it's the mental health problems that like, especially like our youth are seeing, is something that's like growing and that's something that I do think a lot of schools are more reactive to instead of proactive to, and so, um, really kind of my goal with this is to to create some like proactivity with mental health, uh, especially amongst like groups that that need it. So like veterans, like there's there's not much proactive, uh mental health resources for them either, but like student athletes, um, just the youth in general. So I'm trying to raise awareness with this running company with like just mental health, and then also I've got kind of another subgroup in it with raising awareness for, like the benefits of running for people with disabilities.
Speaker 2:So, like I was talking about the girl, kaylee Williamson, who's she's got Down syndrome With running, like just over those few years like she lost like a hundred pounds. She had all kinds of like uh health problems that went into. She had like Graves disease which went into remission, um, with running, and then she saw so much like like benefit, just like with, with, like, I guess, relationships with people too, like she was out there, like she's she does running groups now and, um, I don't know, every time she goes and races like people know who she is and it's I don't know. It's been really really cool to see just like all the benefits that she's received with that, and so that's something that, like, we have special Olympics but for for people with, um, mental or physical handicaps growing up, like a lot of times youth sports isn't really accessible to them and so how do we find a place where they can feel welcome and feel feel home?
Speaker 2:So I'm trying to raise awareness and stuff for for people with disabilities as well with this running company. So I've got a few different lines each of them. My goal is to have, like, donate 10% of of every line to nonprofits working in those areas. So really, um, really just kind of beginning. So it'll hopefully get get going a little bit more. I'll get a little bit more traction going into the next year.
Speaker 1:So I've got my run for swag t-shirt on with Mount Garfield um the outline on it and I love it's a very soft, comfortable shirt. So everybody will put a link in the show notes for those things and go and check it out.
Speaker 2:Great Thanks, Nick.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you so much, shane. I really appreciate you coming on today. I know that you're a busy dad and lecturer over at the college, so thank you so much and we'll definitely have to have you on again sometime.
Speaker 2:Awesome. Thanks, Nick.
Speaker 1:I hope that you enjoyed this episode of the Art of Prevention podcast. If you did enjoy and or benefit from some of the information in this podcast, please be sure to like, subscribe and share this podcast, or please give us a five-star review on any platform that you find podcasts. One thing to note that this podcast is for education and entertainment purposes only. No doctor patient is formed and if you are having any difficulty, pain, discomfort, etc. With any of the movements or ideas described within this podcast, please seek the help of a qualified and board-certified medical professional, such as your medical doctor or a sports chiropractor, physical therapist, etc.