94. Art Therapy & Social Justice (Interview with Mary Brigid)

How many people have you told that you love them today?

Transcript

How many people have you said I love you to today? This question comes from the incredible Mary Bridget, and she is the very first guest here on the Modern Creative Woman podcast. She has been a mentor of mine since 1994. And if we've ever worked together, if you've ever been a student or a client or a member of our community or even listen to this podcast, her fingerprint is on everything that I say and do. It's an incredible experience to sit with Mary and her kindness and compassion and clarity around issues of racism, sexism and homophobia is powerful and profound. I'm so happy to introduce her to you here. Mary Bridget is an art therapist, a professor, a community member and activist, and one of my favorite people on the planet. She has nurtured my career for over three decades. I'm certain you will love her as much as I do. Okay. We're on. Oh, good. Thank you for coming, Mary. Oh, I'm so thrilled to be here. Really? This is amazing. Well, I want to introduce you, and maybe we can just talk about how we met. And so, Mary Bridget is an art therapist extraordinaire. And you have so many just sort of well-rounded, incredible aspects of your life, from your family and friends and your activism to your professional work. That executive director at the Cleveland Area Crisis Center, which is where I first met you, and then, um, of the NRA and Ohio executive director there, and that's a pro-choice organization. Their name has changed over time. Um, you've done really amazing community things, including the coffee truck. You've been doing a lot of government work lately with doing interviews with people. And so you're out in the world in this really cool way. So I maybe we can start with how we met. And I can tell you my experience of you. Okay, let's let's, um. I always remembered that you were teaching a class, and I thought it was on feminist psychology at Ursuline College. That wasn't the class at all. But that's what I heard, right? That sounds like what I would have done to any curriculum. Yeah, it was an addiction class. You told me later, right? Yeah. Um, and at the end of the first day, I thought, wherever she's working, that's where I want to work. Really care where it was. I was going to, like, figure out how I could use what I already understood about feminism in a work environment. I had no concept that it was a thing you could do in your work. I thought it was a thing that I did protesting for in women's groups that I was in. I just had no concept that it could be a part of work. And you just blew my mind away with this idea and of course, who you were. It was like you have this incredibly grounded presence. You're so kind, non-judgmental in every thing that I've ever heard out of your mouth. You know, that's nice to hear. I don't. I'm glad that's true for your experience. And so maybe we can begin there with that work that you were doing at the Rape Crisis Center. And as the executive director there, you were using feminist process, feminist psychology, very focused on anti-racism and advancing the the agency and who it was reaching and who the agency was in terms of who you were hiring, like you were doing these incredible things. And and now we talk about decolonizing art therapy, like, I have more language for it. Uh, but you were doing it in this incredible way. How did you know to do that? Well, you know, how did I know that? That's a good question, because I don't I don't really know for sure. Um, I know that, um, you know, I came out as a lesbian and right away when I was in my 30s and, uh, mid 30s and right away got involved in the women's community and, um. Learned, opened up my whole world to new things. You know, I kind of was I was raised, I would have to say, by a feminist father who would never have called himself that. But he always, always encouraged me to go beyond what the boundaries were for girls as I was growing up. And, um, always told me that I could do better. And, you know, at that time there was very little for girls to do as far as sports went and as far as opportunities. And this is back in the 50s and 60s. And he knew I could do it and pushed me to be on the boys teams, which of course I couldn't get on. But he, you know, I was as good as the boys because I grew up with all the boys, you know. So things like that, that my father always told me. And he, um, he was the first person that made me believe that I didn't have to stay within these constraints. So, um, I was lucky to have him. And I wish he would have raised my brothers the same way that girls could do anything. But, um, he raised a feminist daughter. Um, not feminist sons, unfortunately. But anyways, um, I think that, um, I was always hungry for it, you know, I was always hungry for it. My father then also did things like, uh, we lived out in the suburbs, but on Sundays we went down into Cleveland Heights and the art museum and wherever we could find the hippies. This was in the 60s, and hippies would gather around the art museum. Um, the little pool there and on Coventry. And he would all he was just opening me up to, um, a bigger world that I fell in love with. So I went right out to Cleveland Heights, where there was a strong community of women and got very involved. And I remember I read books, read books, read books, and I was introduced to a lot of feminism, a lot of, um, anti-racism. Um, one of my favorite books back then was, um, um, oh, I'm blanking. It's, um, I'll think of it. But, um, anyways, so it was a book that was written about, um, feminism and racism together, um, and how they're both were weapons used against against us and against women particularly. Um, so, you know, I started at the Rape crisis Center as a child art therapist, and, um, I loved my work there. I love the fact that I had been working with adult survivors of sexual assault. But when I got the job at the Rape Crisis Center, I started working with children who I hadn't worked a lot with as sexual abuse survivors. And found that it was wonderful work because these were I was able to make interventions with somebody and change their life shortly after the abuse, where they hadn't already built up 20 or 30 years of defenses or, um, you know, maladjustment. And, um, it was really wonderful work, um, to see them heal and, and get back onto, um, a normal life shortly after the abuse. So I felt, um, like that was my calling. I just loved that work. So, um, what happened was we got a new director, and she was terrible. I mean, so terrible that people just started quitting because she was so, uh, she she knew nothing about the movement. She knew nothing about sexual assault. She, um, tried to make it very corporate, and, um, her and I came to, uh, were bumping heads over and over and over again. So I eventually had to leave because it was, um. And I said to her, I have I am quitting, but I need a month to finish with my clients. Um, and I need that guaranteed because my clients were so important to me. And so, um, I left and then, you know, there was a big it was almost a year later, um, I went back then to working with, uh, mainly with, uh, as a consultant, uh, families Under Stress, where again, I was working with children and, and parents. So, um, they had a turnover and the board. Well, I don't know what you would call it a revolt. The board and the director walked out one night. Oh. So they called me that night, the staff and they were putting together a board, um, because they wanted to open the next morning for their clients. And legally, they had to have a board and they had to have a director, and they asked me to come in, um, as a temporary director. And they also called Susan Radburn to co-direct with me. So that's how I ended up in that position. It's not something that I ever thought I would be in. And, um, so Susan and I worked together and, you know, first we were just quickly, you know, trying to to make sure we still had our funding and meeting with funders and telling them where we were at and all of that. But as time went on and we got, um, a little more stabilized, um, I realized that, um, I was in a position where I really could. Work and live and integrate my ideals and my ethics and my, um, really strong beliefs about not just women and children, but also on, um, racism and sexism and anti-Semitism and homophobia and that I could integrate all of that into this, um, organization, which I knew a lot of people on staff, and I knew that these were all people that cared about these issues. Um, and I wasn't going to be pushing anything on anybody. So, um, the first thing I did was I looked at our, our, um, we had one male on staff. Everyone else was female. And our, our health insurance did not cover anything that had to do with the female reproductive system. Um, yeah. And I was like, how in God's name can we have insurance like this? So the first thing I did was get new health insurance for all of us. Um, and that was a radical move. Amazing. Yeah. So, um, from there, then the next thing I did was, um, pay equity. And I told the board that, uh, we were going to raise the the. The um, staff, um, salaries. And we were going to keep an equity so that if they gave me a raise, everybody in the organization got a raise at the same percentage that this was the percentage. This is where I was going to get get their salaries. And this is how we were going to keep this thing. And again, that that was like a radical thought, you know. So, um, so I did I started raising money. I started meeting with um, funders, all new to me, only to me, the staff would bring me in clothes to wear because I didn't, um, have those kind of what I thought was appropriate for going to meet the big funders kind of clothes and, um, and then we would, I would go and and talk to people. Um, I got, I got a fundraiser to work for us and raised all the salaries. So, so, you know, I said I knew turnout was expensive. And plus we had incredible people and we didn't want to lose them. And when there was a lot of turnover. Because when you're paying people so low, you have a lot of turnover, you know? So I try to take, you know, we're going to look at this as this is a could be a long term place for people to work and our work can get better. So that's that's kind of what I had in mind, um, with raising salaries. And um, so we did that. And, you know, people are much happier when they're being paid better. They are. Yeah. And I knew that, um, our staff needed to reflect our clients. And at that point, we, you know, we're working in downtown Cleveland and we have a we had some diversity on staff, but there was way more white staff than any people of color, and our clients were way more people of color. And, um, I also knew that for all of us white people to be good helpers. We had to look at our own racism, sexism, homophobia because every one of these issues is a part of someone's healing. You know, if you're working with a therapist that doesn't get it, you're it's going to get in the way. So, um, I think that's how it came about. It was really about how do we best serve clients? And, um, first of all, staff has to reflect clients in how we look, and staff has to go through. Myself included. Um, a whole transition in and recognizing our own, um, shortcomings as far as not understanding people where they're at. So we needed to we started to have groups and staff would take turns, um, and so we'd say, okay, we're going to discuss, uh, racism next week. And one of the staff would 1 or 2 staff would volunteer to be the facilitators, and they would look up readings and articles and send them out to everyone. And I think you were there for some of the thing. Yeah. So so then we would, um, redo the readings ahead of time, and then we would come together for an hour or so and discuss the readings and discuss the issues and discuss clients or issues we had with clients. I mean, it was just open, you know, because this was just a place to learn how we could better unlearn our stuff and better serve our clients. So, so, um, and I also, um, we had some speakers. I remember Elizabeth Barry coming in to speak about, um. I'm not running an organization without power or no power over. I forget exactly what the thing was, but it was basically a feminist model which which had felt like we were trying to do there, that, um, we worked as a team, we worked as a team. Everyone was as valuable as the other one. And, um, we had of course, we had somewhat of a hierarchy, and we couldn't dispute that with the director and, um, support staff and such. But, um, it didn't mean that we didn't value everybody's work equally. And then when it came to hiring, I said, it's important that we hold out to because, um, with with our staff, it's not it's we are looking for the best person for the job and the best person for the job also includes people of color that makes them. That's also something we have to be looking at because our staff is too white, you know? And so, um, and there there was nobody that could tell me that we weren't going to find a person of color as qualified as a white person, you know, and if we had to wait longer or look harder or, uh, start recruiting, um, we did that. And, um, Phyllis Harris was one of them. I knew she was an incredible person I had met, and we were looking for an educator, and, um, and she was a woman of color. And I called her, and I, I said, well, please come and, you know, integrate for this position because I'd love to have you there, which she did. And and as you know, you know, she was amazing. And, um, so it was I think it was, um, at times that I knew that the board wasn't always happy with me being, um, as soon as I was there, some of these ideas that I had, but they didn't get in my way. They didn't stop at that. And everyone, um, on staff was on board, which was important. Yeah. That's a long answer. That's amazing. I there's so many threads to pick up on. I think the first thing you mentioned was being a part of the women's community in Cleveland and being in places in environments where you could learn from the hippies, from women. I think about so often the Delphi bookstore on Coventry, you mentioned going there. My mom often took me there to, to like, let's see the world, what's happening here. And that bookstore was a woman owned bookstore, and it was very focused on the kind of reading that I wanted at that point in time. And before I knew you, I just didn't have access to other people. And then in college, I had some sociology professors who talked about, you know, standing up, fighting back, rejecting opiates of the masses and not, uh, just drifting into complacency. And then I had, um, a sociology professor who was teaching really radical feminism, and I'm like, okay, there's there's words for this. There's a person I now see a person in front of me, and then there was you. And of course, everyone wants to support what you do. And I think at the rape crisis center, we all just rotated around, like, how can we support you? Because you were battling with the board to make sure that things were fair. You were making sure that the staff reflected the people we were serving and made sure that I could get an education. I learned so much from those alternating meetings around anti-racism education. And then we had Margie come in as a group therapist for a long time, and those were places where I ask what felt like really dumb questions, like, I had no idea what this concept or word was, and it was the first place I'd ever heard Americas. It was not a thing I'd heard in any of my history classes, and like just the language and being able to describe it. And and of course, you mention Phyllis here at seven, and she's lives large in my head in terms of just so patient and helping me understand 1,000,001 things and telling me, no, Amy, don't do that. Or, you know, it's not like, no, like just to have people there that could support me was so helpful in my own understanding of how to do this work. I think we were in a unique, uh, environment. Um, and I'm always grateful for that time at the Rape Crisis Center because, uh, we. We were able to do what other people were fighting for in organizations, even even women's organizations, and weren't able to do as freely as we were. And we were free to. There was no judgment. And, and there, uh, we were free to ask the kind of questions, you know. We were all learning together, and we had no experts, um, and we were all learning together, and people could give us definitely their own, uh, life experiences that helped us learn from it. Um, and it really was it was a safe place to learn and grow. And we did. Everyone. Everyone did. There's very specific things that I took from what you introduced there. And feminist Process was one that I've taken everywhere, which is, you know, a rotating chair, that there's not a leader of a meeting. I mean, there might be the the boss or the chair of whoever is in that room, but the meetings could be led and run in equal way. And then celebrating birthdays, you know, really honoring and celebrating one another was such a part of, I don't know, the environment that you created and that kind of appreciation of everyone in the room all year round. You know, we, the person with the last birthday would make a cake for me. It's like being able to count on one another to celebrate each other was huge. Yeah. And launches were great. I mean, we'd all gather to have lunch together so often whenever we could. And again, it was, uh, you know, we weren't doing. It was hard work and very important work. And lunch times were often the place where I could get my energy back. Or I could get I could laugh something out or talk something out or whatever I needed to do. It felt again, like such a supportive place was to go to lunch in the, in the, in that, um, big room and the group room. Yeah. You also did something that is pretty radical in psychology is to we didn't keep notes, we didn't keep records. So we our work was completely private to the people that were coming for therapy. And it would never be subpoenaed in the court because there really wasn't anything right to document. And it was protective in that way. And so if people needed notes to go to court, we could refer them somewhere else. But it was this privacy piece that felt so safe for our clients. It was it was actually, you know, that was in place when I came there. And I came from a a neighborhood mental health center where, of course, keeping notes and diagnosing and, um, having a treatment plan was all so important. And, um, coming there to work as a therapist and not doing that. Um, it was like a little scary at first because this is what we were taught, you know, this is what we needed to do to be a good therapist. But you learn that you could be a good therapist and at the same time, protect your client by not doing all of that. And the fact that we didn't charge people anything to come there, um, and that we didn't have a mental health board over us, um, telling us, I mean, we wanted to stay away from that medical model for so long. We did. But when I saw it coming is when I left. So, um. Yeah, it it's, you know, I forgot about that, Amy. Because once I got on to the administrative side, that was so helpful for clients. And I remember having children in my office when I was the child therapist. I'm the prosecutor sitting outside waiting and then saying, I need to talk to this child. And I said, no, you don't. You do not get the talk of this child unless this child and her mother wants to talk to you and don't ever show up here again. But it happened more than one time. Um, and had we had notes, they would have been subpoenaed. Uhhuh. Um, you know, worked hard to make that happen. You rejected funding from places require, like, you've worked very hard to protect them. Yeah, absolutely. Because I knew that was that was a that's what it was built on. Um, and we were seeing rape crisis centers all over the country that didn't have the funding. And we're going joining him with hospitals and such where they did have they keep notes and they and you lose that, um, where our clients who are could be anonymous. They didn't even have to give us a terrible name if they didn't want it. Yeah. I mean, there's I was looking up recent statistics and, um, 1 in 4 adults, as in the 2024 study, are unable to afford mental health treatment. And 65% in a 2022 study, reported. Just not having enough insurance to make it possible, right? The co-pay is too high, or the initial deductible is thousands and thousands of dollars. Write that you were able to keep it free. Mhm. Huge. And people could come there 30 years after their abuse and get services. There was no time limit. There was no turning anyone away. The thing that helped I think I think and this is interesting because you and I talked about this, not just you and I, but when we had, um, was it when we had dinner together or was it on our little zoom when we talked about, um, what changed when we put sort of a, when I put a middle management but in place. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And, um, which made me think a lot because, um, it when you said. You know, when Susan said, nothing has changed and you said everything has changed, and you were both right in that sense that, um, but when you described what I changed, I was like, wow, that was a lot. That was a lot. Um, whereas I thought I was putting in more support for staff because I couldn't support everyone. It also, um, removed me a bit from staff that weren't on that management, that, uh, team, um, and, and sort of reconciling that with how do we keep this a feminist organization. And then and now we have middle man. And the whole line was nobody has power over anyone. Um, and that we all have our values the same. But but you're right, things changed then, and, um, I, I think we had Margie coming in, giving you all you needed support. You needed support. You can't work in that kind of position. And, you know, when you do have notes, you can go back and look at them, and it really is helpful. But when you don't, you know, you really need support. So we brought Margie, Klein enthused, I'll give you supervision. And then when Susan became the, um. The director of counseling. Then she was giving supervision. So the whole thing was to get supervision. I never worked without supervision before I went there, you know. So the whole thing was to give everyone on staff that kind of support. So I think you did an amazing job and it makes sense. The agency was getting bigger. You I think were having to like, advocate in different and more intense ways, you know, with the board and the community and, you know, you're getting us to make, um, anti-Nazi signs to put in the window downtown. And then you're also running to a funding meeting, and then you're like, you did so many things, and it makes sense that you would put in positions that were intermediary. And it for me, it was like, oh my gosh, I'm losing access to the person who has the information. It's true at all. But like I think that was um, like, oh no, I'm going to lose right from your point. Well, yeah, I got it. Losing that that you know what? I love this little thing about the rape crisis center. If anyone came, there was a Chief Wahoo shirt on. we would ask them to turn their shirts inside out. Yep. And and that was also radical because people would not do that. You know, the Cleveland Indians, that logo were were such a big deal in Cleveland, but we wouldn't let it in the door. Yeah, we I remember volunteers coming in to make signs to go to the game and, you know, please, you know, not they'd have their Indians gear without the that racist logo and they'd make signs about no, no Chief Wahoo and like name and um, indigenous communities would come in protested. And, you know, you are always trying to offer support. If someone is offended by this racist statement, like, why would we not support them? And it was like invisible to the community at large. Like people couldn't see it because they were felt so fused with that idea. This is our symbol and they made it have meaning that that for them was different than a racist meaning. And they because of that, they couldn't see that it was so racist and offensive. Right? Yeah, I know right. That's what it is. It's just. I remember we thought that if we make people aware, they'll change, but it's a little harder than that. It's. Online. Yeah. I remember you brought over detectives to train us. Uh, you had us go to schools and across the street to the police department. And, um, another thing that you did that's unique to every place I've ever worked is it was a four day workweek for long days. And then go home and recover for three. Well, you know, when I first came to the rape crisis center, um, I really wanted the job, but they couldn't pay me enough. Um, and so I negotiated, uh, a four day workweek. I said, okay, I'll take that salary, but I'll just work for a day. And I got it and realized that I keep on staff. Kind of resented, um, that I got this four day workweek, and they were working five days. So when I did, again, becoming director, uh, especially when we weren't paying people enough, I realized, um, we could, um, everyone could go to a four day workweek. Why not? We worked better in four days than having to be there, you know, and having three days off. So, um, I thought everyone should have that opportunity. Some people didn't like it. Some people like coming five days, and that was fun. But, um, yes, I made a huge difference for me, and and I worked at a yarn shop on every Sunday, so I have a little extra income. I could do something creative. Yeah. It made a difference in my self-care. Mhm. Yeah. And we needed a lot of that there. Uh we need I think we also talked a lot about that. Um I remember one of the things and I, I talk, I talked about this other places, but what I really got out of the rape crisis Center was we talked to personally people there who had children. How do we raise our boys differently? How do we raise our girls differently? Um, and and seriously worked at that to raise our children and to have support around doing that because certainly my parents were supporting me in. Um, I mean, I wasn't forcing my son to play with dolls. What I was doing was I'm giving him the opportunity if he wanted to, um, giving my daughter the opportunity. My kids were just, you know, my son wanted the trucks and my daughter wanted the dolls, and that was fine. But also, I would let my kids dress whatever way they wanted, you know, I would let my kids do things, express themselves. But I do encourage my daughter to speak up more, and I'd encourage my son to listen more, um, things that they didn't get messages in normal society about. And, and to have other people help me with that was was invaluable. It's amazing you encourage people to bring their children to work. And when Phyllis Harris had mustard, she just brought him to work. And. When I had my son. Like, still, Austin was the only baby that I ever had known. There was no other baby that I'd ever held or so in the hospital for, and to just have that experience was so informative, and I often thought like, well, what would Phyllis do? She'd relax. She loved Austin, get up from the table and walk around in the middle of lunch if you want it. Like, she was such a good role model for me. She said she burned all her parenting books at one point, and I remembered that after my son was born and I'm like, okay, all of these have to go. I'm going to keep the one that has like the how to check a temperature and do these, like the how to cook. Everything else had to go. And I remembered like, oh, I should trust myself. Like all of that came from my work at the Rape Crisis center. Wow. Well, yeah, we really were, uh, we all pitched in on raising Austin, and we, um. If she couldn't take him somewhere with him, with her to to give up educational presentation, somebody there would take care of him. Mhm. It was awesome. And when I supervised a lot of students who are early career. And then they graduated and they're getting their hours and there's this whole nonprofit industrial complex that exists that's about, you know, kind of working on the backs of those workers. And, you know, you don't do enough. You have to do more for the community. You can't leave. Don't call off sick. You must see this number of patients. Yeah. And you must have the million done. Um, and the turnover is very high. The model demands on turnover. And it also leaves the most vulnerable of our communities with rotating therapists and new therapists. Right. And you? I often tell them about their crisis center. I said there's other ways to do this. Yeah, your agency's not doing it differently, but I could. Yeah. Mom doesn't work. It said that the, um, society at large will, um, value that over our model, uh, that they want to go where there's professionals, you know, I mean, we had professionals, we had, uh, people that were licensed and people that were master's levels and working on PhDs. And we were very professional. We just didn't do that medical model that everyone seems to think is the only way to go. And we were able I do believe you're able to, um, serve people better and have a, uh, staff that stays a happier staff, a staff that supported, you know, but you do have to find alternative funding. Yeah. The kind of funding, um, that lets you keep doing that. Yeah. It's not not that funders didn't say to me. Well, couldn't you start charging some money? Couldn't you try getting, uh, the people that have insurance to give you their insurance? And, you know, I and I would say, no, absolutely not that that's against our mission. And taking insurance from people again is gathering information that we don't want on our files. You know, all of that, you know. So, um, if they weren't today, that's what they would give us the funding anyway. So, you know, but they kept asking, um, I'm just fighting against it. Well, you did such a beautiful job creating an artistic environment there as well. And, you know, as an art therapist overseeing the whole place, you valued creativity on your staff. And you hired me to be the child and Adolescent. And eventually, um, I became just the adolescent because you were able to hire another art therapist and think that that's huge. How did you picture art mixing in with women's community and anti-racism and, like, doing our own work, like, how did you put all that together with creativity? Well, I think that, um, first of all, I had the most incredible art teacher who taught art and presented it as this is how you create a good work of art and this is how you live your life. So, um, everything that she taught us about creativity, she taught us how to apply it to our way of living. And so, um, Diane Hinshaw, her sister for Dallas, was remaining with the intro, and she ended up being the head of the art department. That or so and so, um, I came from this, from this belief. And that's what led me into our therapy, was that I need to have creativity in everything I do and I can. And, um, I'm going to live my life the same way. I'm going to create a piece of artwork. I'm going to spend as much time thinking about doing something as doing something. I'm going to, um, look at the balance of what I've got in front of me. I'm going to look at the variety. I'm going to look all of that I could do on a piece of artwork. And I could also do it in how we were going to have the rape crisis. So, you know, so, um, we have to have balance. We have to have variety. We have to have, um, we have to have music and laughter, and we have to have all of this and doing this serious work. And, um, so it was very important for me to get an art therapy program in there. Um. And we had great art therapists, you know, with you and Peg. And, um, it was Nancy. Nancy, did you say. And wasn't there another woman that, um, a woman of color that was, um, just, you know, a woman? Yeah. So anyways, I think, you know, the art therapy program really took off, and we we knew that, um, so that I knew that we had to have someone with children, adolescents and adults that that we would give them the opportunity to work with someone creative. Because, of course, I believe the best way to do therapy was to use art therapy. Um, so that was important, but it was also important then for staff that we roll a big piece of paper on the table at a staff meeting, and we we start by doing art. You know, I, I ran enough art therapy groups to know that, um, some of the best ways to help people talk and to open up is to be doing art at the same time, or have a hunk of clay in their hands or whatever. So why not apply that to me, you know? So. And plus then we had all these art therapists on staff. You all used to bring in stuff to start our staff meetings, you know. So, um, making art became staff was just like, ready to do it. At first they were like, I don't know how to draw, you know, but we have enough art therapists on staff to encourage people to move past that statement and, um, create people loved it. And so we did incorporate it into a lot of what we did there. Um, and again, that's that was also self-care. You know, we needed to do things that and some people then learned how to use art outside when they went home or whatever, you know, to take care of themselves. Yeah. And you made space for us to be creative. And Phyllis and I created the girls kick butt adolescent group. Yeah. And we thought of the name. We thought it was, you know, catchy and would, you know, people would want to come. And the board didn't like that idea. Right. And, you know, that's fine. We probably could have changed it. But you said you like this name, right? We said, yeah. And you went and fought the board so we could keep the name, but they were like a little offended by the title. But in that group, you know, we did community art. We, um, hung the signs and, you know, Public Square. We rented out the windows at Dillard's, and the girls got to write their message that they wanted Cleveland to know about sexual assault. And you just created a space, and you made sure we, you know, we have the room and the supplies and, you know, here's your art budget. There was never any question that you supported all of the work that we were doing and that support for creativity, um, you know, never felt like working at another nonprofit. Mhm. It's really unique. Yeah. Well, you know how important it was to me and I knew how good it was. I don't think people value unless you, um, come from a profession like you and I don't value art, um, as a healing tool often. Um, and not just in therapy, but everywhere. You know, well, in our therapy, we talk about Pat Allen says art is a way of knowing. And 78 Tyler talks about seeing the world as an art therapist. But what you're describing is living your art like taking on your whole life as creative. Experience, right? Everything should be done the same way that you would create a piece of art. And I was taught that. And, um, you know, and, you know, the Earthlings, um, mission is social change. So they had to have every creative curriculum has to include social change aspects to it, which is very unique. And so, so the idea that, um, we're, we're creating artwork, creating a safe place for clients at the same time, we're, we're doing social change. We knew that what we were doing, we wanted to change society. Um, and, you know, we had educators out there and we had we had volunteer staff and we had so many people, and it was all about social change as well as we do this creatively, and we do this in a way that we can reach people. We do it beautifully, just like we would do a piece of artwork. And so, um, and my son and I were sat at lunch today. He's like, well, he just turned 40. And, um, he's he's incredibly creative in, in so many different areas. Um, I mean, he's besides running this, um, club that he is, he's now deejaying and he's telling me all about how he's got new equipment and all, but then he starts telling about this mural he's painting on his wall in his apartment. And. And then I started talking about the way we think. He said, mom, do you know that 20% of people do not have an inner dialogue? I said, I never heard that before. He said, that's 1 in 5 people don't have an inner dialogue. He says, how do you live without an inner dialogue? And and I said, well, you have an overactive inner dialogue, which is awesome. And to have none is pure boredom. I mean, you, you know, you're not being creative. And, um, I asked him, do you wake up with solutions in the morning that you weren't even thinking about when you go to bed at night? And he said, oh, all the time. I said, because I woke up this morning with a solution in my head that I didn't even know was a problem when I went to bed. But it came to me while I was sleeping and I said, see, we think the same way. He goes, oh, I think a lot of people think what I said, I said, I don't, so I don't think people go to bed with a problem and wake up with a solution as, as often as creative people do. It's about also taking that rest. But I would start you look at a piece of art as much as you work on a piece of art. So you have to be involved in this arc from a distance. You have to know it. You can't just stand right up on it and work on it the same way you have to do. You have to step back. You have to give space. You have to. So I had some, um, incredible people in my life that taught me things that I might not have ever known. Oh, I think Jared Kushner's your, um, sense of community, right? That he creates community evenings and, like, in invites all kinds of, like, experiences at the club. Like, there is this he's very much your son. It's very important for him that anyone that walks in there feels safe. And he he said, I know that, um, if anything were to happen because somebody wouldn't be just the staff that would stand up to stop it. But the, the people that come there, which is awesome. And people want to put their money into places where they're welcome and their neighbors are welcome, and where they could see themselves working or their neighbors working. Right. That's really important right now. And I'm seeing, you know, I'm making changes in my own spending habits and watching a lot of people. 40% of Americans have made a change in their spending in the last month. Wow. Because they want to move towards putting their money where their value is, right? I think we just talked about that not too long ago, and we was like, it might be more of an effort. And that's what we used to say at the Rape Crisis Center might be a little bit more of an effort to get this done in a feminist process takes longer or to hire in what will reflect their clients or to, you know, it might take a little longer, more effort, but it's worth it, right? Absolutely. It took longer to find a. Eat like the what I needed for my syllabi. To make sure that there are women authors, women of color, authors in my syllabi. It doesn't take that much longer, right, though, right? Not that hard. Yeah, I remember being a student in the art therapy program and say, could we have one textbook that's written by a woman at least? You know, and back then there was when we the, the, the, um, programs, the art therapy was pretty new, but still, I said, what? You have to have a wife in order to be able to write a book and art therapy. She said, come on, I'm sure there are women out there that. And and the truth was, the women were doing incredible work. They weren't taking time to read the books back then. Thank God for people like you, Amy, that are writing the books. And we have female written books in the field. It's so important to have space. And I think, like my my favorite professional contribution is the post-traumatic stress disorder and art therapy book. And it just began like when I started that class with you, that therapy and work and social justice can be combined. And, you know, at the time we use the term, um, rape culture, right? And wanting to change culture. And over time, I've, you know, added to that understanding around cultural humility and valuing the gift of diversity. And there's just more language available and there's more women writing. Yeah. Thank goodness. Yes, yes, you have done. And I was telling my son about you at lunch today, telling me I was going to be doing this with you and you've done so much in the field and from my perspective, like the fact that, um, I got to give you your first job in art therapy. Um, I can't take any credit for who you became, but I can really, really feel, um, so satisfied in being a part of that and proud and excited and, um, just, you know, that to see where you went from your very beginning has been wonderful to watch. And beyond. Just beyond, you know, it. Um, I love it. I love what you've done. Your fingerprint is in everything I do. I'm not I'm not overselling the point here that you and Susan and Phyllis have influenced tremendously. And there's been so many other people, of course. But yeah, that initial. Light bulb coming on of this work can be done in our profession, in a creative way, in a way that is working to change society. And, you know, we, I think, didn't use the word intersectional back then, but like you were talking about the intersecting identities, um, and, you know, intersection intersectionality was like a legal term way back when women were suing against discrimination and you were using all of those ideas in this incredible way, like your leadership is unsurpassed. Oh, thank you. I, I really do treasure those years. I've never worked another place who have had that kind of an experience, um, and ability to be a part of creating a community like that. Yeah. And Lori helped me design what I do now. Right. The podcast is free, my newsletter is free. I've got a very low cost program, $100 a month. And then I see clients like I made a tier system because of what I learned from you. Like there's stuff that's going to be free, but I got to pay my bills, right? Exactly. I could do this, right? Right. But you are offering something for free, and I think that's awesome. It's awesome. I think that we have to, uh, be able to live and work in a way that, um, fits our values. Um, and and not fear that we won't be okay. That fear of I won't have enough can get in the way of people really, uh, doing work that fits their core values. Yeah. What's good for everyone is good for me. Yes. Hey, wait. Uh, could you talk about your art, where your batik and all the things that you're working on now? Because you really, I would say, like, deepen your practice. Since I've known you in, in art, like, the your skill is incredible, of course, but you've deepened it somehow. Well, I do think that, um, uh, creating art. Yeah, I love batik, I love batik, and I, uh, and Brigid and I were my daughter were just talking about this yesterday because she is not seriously into macrame and she has is doing a show while she's going to be showing it in a restaurant on the West Side for sale. And so she's seriously working on that. And she asked me for help, and I said, absolutely. Um, just not doing the macrame, doing getting it ready to show. And I said, remember when you used to come in, um, take the wax off my batiks as I was getting ready for a show because I would have, like, be working on 3 or 4 different batiks at a time. And then I have all these pieces covered in wax and that takes. So she goes, yeah, I could never figure out why you picked that form of artwork when it was took so long to remove that wax, to even see these pieces of art. And that's what I loved about batik. I love the process. You know, I, I had a. Learned and have learned over the years how to, um, control the the colors and the colors that I want and the crack that I want, and you know, the shapes that I want. But the thing is, I can't completely control batik. You know, batik is going to do its own thing, too. And I love that surprise. I love what the batik gives back to me. Um, as I try to, um, create this, whatever it is, if it's a face or a shape or a flower or whatever, the boutique is going to give me something back that, um, I didn't expect. And I always say that's that's here, here, here's the real art coming out. You know, this is the piece expressing itself. So that's why I love batik. And you don't see it until you take the wax off. And so, um, yeah, it's a, it's a long, slow process where you building different colors and layers of wax and layers of wax and, and, um, I just love it. I've been doing it. I fell in love with it when I was 15 years old. And so what? I've been doing it over 50 years now. But, um, I love a lot of different forms of art. I love color pencil, and I love, um. Uh, ink and, uh, colored inks and colored pencils and, um, those are, those are my main things that I love, um, that I do now. Um, so I you know what? I went to visit Diana Pinchuk the other day at her studio, and Amy Jacobs was there looking at the art. Oh, yes. What about professors? Yeah. It was just like, oh my God. And then she was telling me how one of the pieces hanging on the wall reminded her of, um, a symbol I used to make when we were in art therapy. We had to keep a drawing journal, and she was the one that would go through it every week. And she remembered some of my forms, and that was pretty awesome. So it was really nice to see her. Um, but, um, again, I, I'm still very close to my art teacher, Diane, and we still get together, and she's in, um, creating incredible things. Um, and then when we get together, we talk for 3 or 4 hours. And I said to her, you know, it's interesting. We don't we don't get together on a regular basis. And it might be years in between those visits. But we've traveled, we keep traveling these same paths, but separately, and so that when we come together, we have so much to talk about because I. I took on her values. I took on her ethics when I learned them because, um, in high school, you know, I was, um, just 14, 15, 16 year old kid learning from this wise woman who herself was only 24 or 25. But, um, so she's my grandmother. Yeah. He is. He's a great grandma. Oh, yeah. Um, and making art, I just think is so important. So I'm very happy my daughter has found her, and. And my son and I were talking about it today, and he said, me too, mom. I'm so glad she found her creativity because she always said she was the only one in the family that wasn't creative. And now she found it. Every everyone can find it, right? Yeah, well, she's such a delight. She's also. So your daughter, I think there's, you know, in in her work in community. And I wonder, um, if you like the theme seems to be community and connecting with women and and maintaining the relationship and, um, like, how so? We've been part of your anti-racism group. I mean, I think you and I have been working together 30 years or almost 30 years, and this latest iteration of AI. And you're breaking up. Oh, no. Let's see. Okay. We're back. Okay, then the latest iteration of your community making has been the anti-racism group. And you pulled together all kinds of women. You created the fishbowl. Talk about how that came to you. And, you know, it's been such an important part of my growth in the last, I don't know, 4 or 5 years. You know what's amazing? I think it's an amazing group that in my racism group. And, um, never did I expect it was going to continue. So we all must have had a thirst. We almost had a hunger for it. Um, I think, you know, it came out. It really came out after. Um, for me, it was about, uh, the aftermath of the George Floyd killing and, um, it was Covid, and, um, I didn't, you know, being in my 60s did not feel safe going out to the protests, um, as far as Covid was concerned. And so, um, I remember doing a fish bowl in person at Cleveland State University. One time it was open to the public, and I called up seven and said, do you think we could do a fish bowl on zoom? It would be safe. And she's. And right away she just said, yeah, sure. What are you thinking? You know, and so we created this virtual fishbowl and, and had, um, I think with three incredible women of color speak about their experiences with racism. And then my idea was, uh, this is as far as my ideas went, was to have the fishbowl contact as many women, uh, without having too many, but important women that I knew were already doing this work that would maybe be interested in reading a book on, uh, for white women on anti-racism. So gets those. I got the white people. Seven gets the women of color. We have our fishbowl. And then we're going to go read this book. Uh. Me and, uh, white supremacy. Right? So, um, which was a 28 day challenge book or whatever that we took probably a year to go through, or at least six months. Um, but the group then just and the only other idea I had was that there would be that we would alternate leaders. Nobody was in charge of the group. Uh, sweet alternate leaders every time. And from there, it was like people decided, all right, well, how about every two weeks? How about if we read 20 pages? I mean, I have not come across any other people in a book group that get together as much during one book as we do. And I think that's the beauty of our group and what has, you know, it's become so cohesive and so important to all of us. Um, but we also we really started sharing personal stuff about our own experiences and getting help from the group on how to deal with experiences. So we were, um, reading this stuff in the book, and we were also applying it personally. Right. Yeah. And we read Cass and my grandmother's hands. And James, I'll put a list of our books in the show notes. Yeah. And, um, the warmth of other suns. Yeah. So I think I never expected we were going to be together. How long is that? Five years. Six at least. Yeah. And we're going to move on to our next book, which is what, our sixth or seventh book. It's a great group. I love it too. It's really special and important, and I think the idea of doing anti-racism work, it's part of my personal values, but it's also part of my business plan, right? Like I think of exercise as part of my business plan. I have to do something to show up for people. And I want to continue to challenge myself and grow around anti-racism, anti sexism and homophobia and all of these areas that we've talked about today. It's part of how we make the world better. But it's only we only have to work on ourselves. But right. And that's what we have to keep reminding ourselves. And I think we keep coming back to it in the group of, um, it's not just what we do in the group, but it's what we say to somebody else about what we're learning from this book or how we apply it in some situation, um, that comes up for us in our lives. So, but, but I think we influence people by talking about our experiences of what we're learning. And that's important as just as much important to spread it. Yeah. And I think, you know, you, you maybe because you're still working have certainly more fun interactions with people. But I have a lot of interactions with people too. And I, I just included, you know, it becomes part of our dialogue. It becomes part of us. And that's that's what we're learning to be so easy with it. I mean, we wouldn't be in this mess we're in in this country right now if it weren't for racism and sexism. Right. Um, we might have had a completely different, uh, president. Yeah, I don't know. It's okay that I get political, but here. Uh, but that's my own personal feeling. And, um, we've got a lot of work to do, and we're teaching our children. We're teaching our children, and. And, you know, it's so important you and I both have sons. And it's so important that we are raising sons, um, to be good men and to feel loved and to feel, um, treasured by us. We're not. We're not, um, there is no anti mail about any of the work we do. And that's how people get offended by feminism because they think that it's anti male. And we are raising um sons um who are pretty amazing guys. Yeah I think a lot of people see feminism. We're like you said is anti men. But it's not about revenge. It's about equality right. For everyone. Yeah. Right. Right. And I think you know, you're right about race and leading to so many problems and racism. Really being a sticking point that once you see, you can't unsee it, right? And I really do try and invite white women into conversation or recommend books. And there's a space for all of us in this work, and nobody has to give up anything to participate. It benefits us just as much as it does the people that we're serving. Right? It's us. You're right. I mean, look at her. I mean, we've been you seven even, um, friend that I haven't talked to her in a while, but, um, we stay connected from those many, many years ago that we met each other in, um, the 90s. When did you graduate from Ursuline? Probably 97. So I started working with you there in 96 or 90. 95. 96. Okay. Yeah, a long time. That's how important our connection to her. Yeah. I really appreciate that. You showed up today and had a conversation then. I. It's impossible to convey how much you and your vision has impacted me. And then like that has stretched out. You know, when I was, uh, uh, chair of the department, and, like, your work has much legacy. Oh. Thank you. I do kind of think of you and Myrna and and Phyllis as my legacy as well as my children. So I'm happy to be that. Yeah, I love it. I love seeing it. And and others, too. But, um, you're the three. I stay in most in touch with you and said something the other day about, you know, if there's a message to the world that you wanted to go and, you know, it was along the lines of, you know, I know this is an upsetting time, but, you know, we've been through this before and we can keep going. We move. And I also said to keep loving our hearts. And, um, I came across an in if I can read this, I, I rarely go on Facebook, but, um, every once in a while I get these things, um, that are, um, like memories they send to me from Facebook. Um, and I went on to look at this one, and I must have put this on for Valentine's Day many years ago, and, um, I didn't really remember, but I loved it. It was right after we talked about that on, um, our book group, and, um, I love this so much, I put it on my email for my signature. Can I just read it to you real quick? Yeah, that's the root of the word courage is core c o r, the Latin word for heart. In one of its earliest forms, the word courage, meant to speak one's mind by telling all one's heart. Courage is a heart word. Be brave and love heart. And I thought I was like that. Be brave and love hard was what I was really trying to say the other day. You know that we have to be brave, that we're going to get through this. We have to keep standing up and fighting, and we have to keep loving. And I think with community, those things are possible. They're not possible to, like, change everything all by ourselves. Right? Right. Really is all the things you've said about community rolled up into one. All right, so we have to stay close to like minded people that love us and that we love and continue to feel love so that we can continue to do the work and watch the scary news. Not too long, not too much. But I always tell people not to watch, you know, to like, read instead and not have the visuals. Yeah, right. I get my, um, few, uh, newsletters every morning that I read, and, um, I chose the ones that, um, are helpful, not scary or sensationalist. And, um, that's what I do for the most part. Yeah. Well, there's a part of my mission is that we're solution focused, that I try and help people use their creativity to come to solutions. Like you said, Jared will sleep on a problem or, you know, wake up with solutions, right? But only looking at the problem exhausts us, depletes us, and looking for possibilities is a creative act. It really is so much love that you've put into all the things that you created. It's amazing. It's been so fun to talk to you and and sort of remember all this stuff today. Go back to those years that we were all together working. Thank you, thank you, thank you for being the first interviewee. Oh, I didn't realize that. It's you. You're not. Well, I wonder if you could leave a question for the next person that I interview. A question? Um, I guess I would say, um. Oh my gosh. I got like questions flying through my head and and I'm like, I gotta have a good one. Um, I, I would the two things I would say. Can I say two questions? Sure. Um, what have you done today to be helpful to yourself or others? And, um, how many people have you told that you love today? That you love them? Nice. Have fun writing this down. Um. Well, Mary. Thank you, I love you. I appreciate you so much. You're such a a beacon of rational business in my head. You know, like the kindness and the art and the creativity. But like, the rationality of why this is good for all of us. We read. It's amazing. Well, thank you. Thank you for all those kind words at kick. I'm taking them all in. And I love you to Amy, who's been great. Thank you. Bye bye. So now that you know about the work of Mary Bridget, see if you can answer her two questions. What have you done today to be helpful to yourself and others? And how many people have you said I love you to today?