99. Happiness! (Interview with Dr. Aymee Coget)

“Happiness is a human right.” 
      -Dr. Aymee Coget 

This is a delightful interview with happiness expert, Dr. Aymee Coget. She has an impressive clientele of leaders around the world and a resume of multiple books (linked below). She is consultant to leading companies in technology, helping create sustainable happiness in the workplace. Catch her happiness in this interview!

Dr. Aymee's books
3 types of happiness

Transcript

“Happiness is a human right.” This quote from Doctor Aymee Coget starts us off today. Welcome to the modern creative woman. I'm Doctor Amy Backos, your creativity expert, and I'm so glad you're here for this audio creativity journey. Today we have another interview and this is with the amazing Dr. Aymee Coget. She is a happiness expert. She works with CEOs, particularly with women in leadership positions. And I completed the Happiness Makeover, one of her signature programs, a number of years ago. It took me about three years to complete it, and it revolutionized my leadership and honestly, my outlook on life. I'm so delighted that you get to have a peep into our relationship and the work that she does. Her work in the happiness field. Is highly regarded. It's very well known. She's written multiple books on the subject, and she's lectured at some of these really big companies that you've heard of. Her happiness is contagious, and I will link her books and a little bit about her work, especially the three types of happiness, into the show notes, so that you can learn more about how to increase your own happiness. Enjoy the interview. 

Hello, Dr. Aymee, I'm so glad you're here. Hello, Dr. Amy. Thank you for inviting me. Well, this is an exciting opportunity for us to have a conversation. And I'm curious about some of the things that we're going to talk about in terms of happiness and the psychology of happiness, why it matters so much. And let people know a little bit more about your work as this happiness expert. And it's a pretty unique position in the world. There's there's not there's people who are really highlighting happiness in this way. And I want to say, you're a joy and a delight to be around. So you you're the best brand ambassador for happiness. Wow. Thank you, Doctor Amy. I'm so happy to be here. And I've been championing happiness for almost 30 years. So if you do something for almost 30 years, you got to be good at it. I agree, and we were we were thinking about how people change when they meet you. And you asked me, how was I before I met you? And I have a I think I was a good therapist and I think I one of my defining features, though, however, was like. Very witty, very sarcastic, really full of, um, sarcasm as a way to critique what's happening in the world. And I rather liked it at the time. And it it became really clear to me, and working with you that I was looking in the wrong direction. Mhm. The cynics critic. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's pretty much gone. Wow. Wow. That's major. Yeah. You've done a number on me. But I'm in a good way. In a good way. Yeah. And I was thinking of when I met you. You were friends with Mackenzie, who owned the women's clothing store right around the corner from my house. And, um, she was using the store to host really cool community events. And I was just signing up for whatever she was offering because they were so fun and Mackenzie's such a delight to be around. So I was just signing up and I met you in this workshop, and all these women showed up with their notebooks, ready to absorb this information. And just I left feeling shocked and surprised and like, what is this work? What is this? And I kept coming and I kept signing up for smaller workshops. And at some point I thought, this is where I need to go. Yeah. And then investing in the bigger package with you. And it took me, I think, three years to get through it. Yes. Which I think is longer than most people would take. But, you know, you were really patient with some areas. I just had to go home and work on longer. Mhm. I do care about sustainable results. And look at you now. So how many years ago was that. It was 2019. Maybe we started. Okay. It was right after I turned 48. So five years ago. Yeah. Okay, so you're going strong, Amy. Why? Why? And maybe you can talk just a little bit about what you do. How you got into organizational psychology. How did you change me? Where did this come from? And I would love to talk more about how you do the work because it's so interesting. Mhm. Thank you. Yeah. What a nice introduction. Those fun workshops were fantastic. So McKenzie was also a student of mine. And she was being transformed by the process. And she wanted to spread the joy. And what better place than her place of work and, you know, bring it to her customers. And so it was really wonderful. Once a month I would go there and choose some topic for a whole year. That's a whole year. Once a month I would come and we would do living in the moment or positive thinking or, you know, you name it, gratitude. And I remember you sat next to me and you were like, WTF a question mark? Every time. Yeah. Afterwards you always love Smiling. Am I right? Am I? This is all new. Mhm. Yeah. So what is cool is that these tools that I've developed over time do impact someone so fast. You know within that just one hour you felt uplifted. So that was super cool. And also what's interesting is that you have had so many years of psychology work yourself. You have a PhD in psychology. And then this was like a whole new topic that you were that was new to you. Can you touch upon, you know, just a little bit about coming to the table with the clinical psychology background? Yeah. I discovered positive psychology when the rest of the world when the rest of the general public did, you know, in in the 90s when, um, it was the mission of APA and they, they wanted to shift from pathology thinking to positive psychology. And, um, Marty Seligman was president of the APA. And so it was his mission to just make us aware of this. And so it was on my radar. I knew how to use it in terms of research. I was. Asking my master's and doctoral students to ask positive questions, to look for strengths. Um, and so I used the positive psychology assessments that, um, were available, and especially in taking women internationally, using those scales were really an important part of making, you know, maybe stressful situations more manageable. Um, and yet what you offered was completely different than this intellectual way of understanding how to get out of pathologies. And I knew about post-traumatic growth and and just what you were doing. Um, you're focusing on the philosophy, right? Like you pull in the history and the three types of happiness, and you're pulling in so much. It's this well-rounded, like liberal arts education on happiness to start with, which appealed to me a lot. But to feel better in the moment, you know, it's different than just teaching someone, well, let's ground yourself and do these things. And it's it's not just so simple, like get out of a crisis in the moment. It really is. I feel like you overhauled my personality. I feel like I got analysis. It was nothing like analysis I've been doing. Analysis was nothing like that either. So even after all these years of you even doing your own work, it brought you to your, you know, sarcastic, cynical self. Even though he had an awareness of positive psychology because of the field that you work, and yet still through this work, you feel like a whole new personality inside. And I mean, I can look at you now and it's definitely different. But when I first met. So that's amazing. And I just wanted to share though that that's really cool. Plenty of people out there that are psychologists, therapists and inundated with the traditional pathological approach of psychology can still use and find benefit from applying positive psychology every single day. And that is basically the difference between my work and what you did to change your brain over time was the repetition. And even though that was a hard thing, perhaps for you to do over and over, it did lead you to the results that you paid for. Yeah. Yeah. How did this come to you in in studying organizational psychology, which is, you know, sort of like a bigger picture, right? Like, you understand psychology, you understand how organizations and systems work in this other way. How did happiness grow out of that? Right. Well, that's a wonderful question. It actually started with happiness first. So what in 1996 was the year where I sat down and thought to myself, like, what do I want to do with my life? And I thought at that point I wanted I was in college. You know, most people think about that in college, and I, I would want to. And so I thought that I wanted to help millions of people live happier lives. And so I was like, okay, I can really get behind that. That can keep my interest all these years. And then I was thinking, all right, well, that's nice. And how are you going to achieve that? You know, what is your plan of attack? And so I thought, well, I never heard anyone say yay. It's Monday. And so I set forth to make a change at work. So happiness at work. So I thought I could make a dent. And people who are working who are potentially unhappy. And in my mind, I had these ideas of like the Google and the Facebook and the LinkedIn. You know, the Twitters back in the day when they first got started, and that was the type of culture that I wanted to help create in an organization so people could feel good at work. Then something happened. My first job out of college was a happiness coordinator on a trading floor, but. Oh, wow. Wow. Wow. Yeah, so that was a wonderful experience, except to end my interview to get the job. I said, listen, I'm just really good at helping people be happy at work. And she was like, can you start tomorrow? And that's because it was so bad. There was so unhappy and crazy. And the EVP would take a bat and slam it on the desk, and he would yell across the floor all the time. And people were quitting every day. And it was like very negative. And the year and a half that I worked there, I helped the group grow four times. No one quit, and they made four times the amount of money. And so I thought there was something to this positive approach. And it taught me that the leaders actually make the difference for people's happiness at work. So if your leader is unhappy, if your boss is unhappy, it's a lot more challenging to be happy at work. Um, for those reasons. So then in graduate school, I always knew I needed to get a PhD if I was going to talk about happiness. And so I did. And so I continued along the track of organizational psychology in that vein, and found that leadership is a topic that I'm passionate about, so I could influence the leaders that therefore would help the culture be a positive experience. Did that answer your question, Amy? Yes. And I think, you know, traders are notoriously unhappy. Right like that job is. You're right. Very short lived. It's extremely difficult if you can make people in that position happy. Incredible. Thank you. Yeah. So I, I love that position. And then I left that role in 2003 and started my own coaching company, basically based in positive psychology and positive leadership. And then in 2006, I created the Happiness Makeover Program, and that's the program I did. I bought the whole shebang. The biggest package you had, you would buy the Happiness Makeover Program, which is a makeover. There you have it, folks. It's a total makeover. It really is. And I think you know your work to your vision of seeing it as something that you want to bring and share to millions of people that you've got your books. Now, the whole makeover package is written. How is how is writing that book? Okay, so you must be talking about the three different books. We have this one here, which is, you know, the playbook, pretty easy read. Then we have this one which is also pretty easy to read. And then you must be talking about this guy. Yeah, well, I read them all. Um, I maybe start with the, um, the blissful calling, because if you know, there's, there's people listening who are therapists and it's, it's challenging work and you could have finished all your school and want to stay in the profession and still do the blissful calling. I did it, and I ended up leaving my tenure track. My tenured position. I wasn't just on the track, I was already fully tenured, and I was the chair of my department and working with you. And I remember doing that blissful calling. I was visiting my family in Cleveland, and I stayed at a apartment downtown, and all I did was walk around one day and, you know, I'd come back and I'd do some questions on that workbook and I'd go walk around some more. And it was really the the beginning of that little kindling for like, wait, there's more I can do here, like, I. Yeah. And that created the flame of change in you. And look at you now. Do you ever wish that was a different experience, or do you want to go back to where it was before? I'm so happy to be, you know, leading my own company. I'm you know, I still teach I support the dissertation students in their research, and I love that what I was doing was simply unsustainable for me. And in terms of like the amount of work and the amount of challenge and frustration that it was, I was bringing home and it was I was writing reports constantly. My husband said, didn't you go to school so you could make art? With people. I'm like, oh yeah, I did, I did, what am I doing? Yeah. And it was huge to go through that. But even, you know, I, I wasn't I hadn't zero plans to change the, the, my career. And it became so obvious, the path became very obvious to take that leap and become an entrepreneur and also which is interesting, folks, because she came to me to help her and her happiness, and then through her inner happiness that her life was transformed. Yeah. You have a new house. I mean, you know, I mean, it's different. It is so cool to see the whole package. So with the blissful calling now, I one day I woke up and was like, Amy, how did you ever become a happiness expert? And because of my background in organizational psychology, I understand nerdy concepts like the job characteristics model. And so I went back and thought, okay, well, what were all of the steps that I decided to take along the way? And some of those steps include asking yourself, I called this the Gandhi hat, put on your Gandhi hat and ask yourself, what is the change you want to see in the world? And what was your answer? Amy? I wanted to, you know. You know, over at Berkeley, they have the center for Greater Good, and it's this branch at Berkeley University. And their mission is to make the discoveries of science available and applicable for the general public. And so they host all of these workshops, and anyone can go you can get your CEUs, or you can just be a community member who's curious. And the workshops are at a practical application skill level. And that really stuck with me. And in reading the blissful calling and filling in the answers I had that so much in my mind. Like, if I could stop being this intellectual, writing textbooks and teaching at this level, like and bring it to a space that could be applied. So application was part of my dream. Like, can, can I do I have what it takes to to transfer all this knowledge into practical application for women? And I thought, well, yeah, I do. I have something here that I could share in a different way. I can write textbooks, I can teach five steps. Yeah, yeah. It was completely different to think about, you know, like there's some ability that, you know, I can there seems to be like, I can check. Mark, I wrote some textbooks, checks. Yes, I'm smart. And it's way more wide open to for me to ask myself, can I help women just have a better life? Be more creative. There's no check mark at the end. It feels very value driven, and I'm not going to. I'll never finish that task. And so it was wide open and I liked that possibility. I love that right. And it fuels you every day. Now that you're aware of it, every single day you wake up and you're like, yes, I get to help more women be creative and expressive and heal and adventure and have fun and love themselves. Which was a different experience from like six years ago. Wow. And my son completed the workbook. And, you know, in thinking about what he would like to study in college, I recommended that workbook to so many people. Thank you. My clients, I think, have really benefited from that idea of just thinking differently about what could be possible. Mhm. Yeah. What could be possible. And so the secret to find your blissful calling is to find it through your heart versus your mind. So a lot of us are groomed in the world to cut our cut ourselves off here and let alone talk about career and your art space or, you know, calling or purpose. And so, you know, just so people understand the word calling means that you have that vision for a greater good, and that's how you want to contribute in your lifetime. If you have a career, that's fine. Although it probably has something to do with what you went to college for, and you probably working on the next promotion and getting up the ladder, and you really like the stability that it offers you as well. And you know, your package and your benefits and stuff like that, your retirement and everything. And then there's the job. So the calling, the career and the job. So the job is a means to an end. It pays the bills. And outside of your job you have a better life basically. And you just realize you're working this job, you're doing these tasks. And that is the point of it all. And so I think, Amy, you moved from career to calling. Am I right? Definitely. And I think the what you're describing, I would. You know, call in acceptance and commitment. The idea that what's important. Right. And so for, um, a mom who's working a job just to get home to the kids, that's the value is. So I can spend time with the kids, I can pay the rent. Like, I've worked plenty of jobs where the goal is to pay my rent, and that was worthwhile. There's, you know, zero judgment on whatever the value is that we're going towards. And what you're describing going up the ladder is increased satisfaction with it. And there's people who can be happy with any job. I remember Dave Letterman said his one of his favorite jobs was the first job. He was bagging groceries, and he just told jokes and was pretty much doing standup, and it was his blissful calling. And all he was doing was what might look like a job, right? Yeah. So you could have your find your blissful, you could have your blissful calling watering plants in a corporate environment. You would definitely. There you are right. There is zero judgment here on any one as far as what you Decide is best for you in your life. It just happened to be part of our program that Amy was doing, and then she chose that option to move toward. It sounds like, because in the workbook, it gives you an option to choose what it is you want to follow, whether you want a job or you want a career, you want to call it. Yeah. And I think for for many people, and especially in our parents generation, the career was most valuable. And now there's just so many more options. And how you write it in that book gives it, um, so much credibility that it's it, it moves away from being farfetched to be happy at work to the most obvious thing in the world. And so I can be happy doing, like, more mundane tasks because I can see, oh, this paperwork leads me to. Exactly. We are tuned. You're tuned in to the meaning and purpose behind the tasks. Exactly. Yes. Yeah. So it is a very. It's so interesting that it's only 30 pages because like four of them are references and it's a very scientific approach. Even though I might be talking about touchy feely concepts like your heart or your Gandhi hat, it actually follows like systematic thinking and science that will actually funnel you into one liner at the end. What is the title? And Amy, do you remember yours? I think it was where I started a whole mess of notes, and I ended up with, um, writing them all on a huge whiteboard and erasing them over time. And so my sentence took a bit of time, and, um, I really concluded with, oh, the modern creative woman. That's who I want to be. That's what I want to bring. Ta da! That's how we got here today, buddy. The birth of the modern, creative woman. Yeah. And it speaks to time, right? The. The work we've been doing is over five years. The amount of time it took me to erase the words that were less and less relevant to me, took me. I gave myself a cap. Honestly, I think I gave myself three months to. I have to be. Stop, stop editing at three months. So there's a very there's zero urgency in working with you that it's about being in the moment. There is zero hurry towards what's sustainable. It has so much more to do with that investment in the future and being activated in the moment, being activated in the moment, created your future. Thank you Dada. Yes, it is what I call the magic and rainbows experience the upward spiral. That's why we do positive psychology because of the benefits that happiness brings. Can you think of any benefits that you've experienced, Aimee, since you've been doing this? So many. I think I looked over it. I think my face has just changed as a matter of smiling more. I used to wake up in the morning and I would say, oh no, here we go again. It's terrible. Um, I wake up every morning and over practice. It took me a long time to do this. I say today's the happiest day of my life. And you know, I have some other loving kindness. Things I do in the morning. And, um, I say thank you. As soon as my feet hit the ground, like, just to wake up and feel excited. It's huge. Uh, you mentioned before we, uh, my family moved in in, like, the course of over the course of a month. We moved, and I quit my job, and I. It took like four months to get to that, but all of a sudden everything was different. I was like, whoa, this is a lot of change. Um, we were still in San Francisco. We moved up the hill. We have a view. It feels completely different. And just being open to it taught me how to get here because, um, my friend owns the home and was saying, oh, he's gonna, you know, rent the home out again. And oh, great. It started with a myopic viewpoint. And your fence. Right. You were grateful for the hole in your fence. Tell the whole story. Amy. Okay. Um, my family lived in this little apartment is the third, third floor walkup, which is a lot of effort with a child and groceries. Um, and if I laid in bed, I could see, um, the neighborhood where I now live, and I could, I could look at that space and see the view, and I could see. And I'd watch Orion move through the sky. Sometimes when it was in that part facing east. And I would have to lay down to see that. And I just kept looking. And then I started sitting in front of our little gas fireplace. And if I sat right there with my back to the fireplace, there was a sliver where there was a space between the building and the fence, and I could see that space again. So I was like these two spots in our house where I could see the vista. And there's so much good psychology about looking at a vista, like climbing up and seeing something and having that space. I just kept looking. And this is only like two feet, four feet of, like, view, right? Yeah, yeah. And in front of the fireplace, it was just like it's wide. It it opened the window. I looked at a white brick wall and then this little gap that I could see really far. And then my friend said, um, that this house was vacated. They were going to rent it out. We were just chatting and I said, how much? And he said, the amount, and I my old thoughts were there. And immediately I said, how could I do this? That's like a Amy push a you question, how can I make this happen? And I just wrote down every answer that I could think of. I'm like, oh, okay. I could let go of my art studio. My husband could let go of his, um, storage space for all the motorcycles and the tools, and then it would be almost the same. And I would. Had I not been working with you, that opportunity would have completely sailed by me with the thought of like, oh, that's that's so much money. Or, you know, and like, oh, I don't know. I'll let you know if I know anybody. Yeah. Um, and that sticks in my head so much. I went to my husband and I said, please say nothing. I'm going to tell you something. I'm going to get I'm going to read you what I have here. Just say nothing. And then I'm leaving. And I, I said, what happened? And I read the numbers and I said, I'm leaving. And he panicked for, like, an hour and then text me and he said, you're right. It's time. It's time to go. And it felt so huge. It seems maybe small on the outside to decide to move. It was, you know, the revolution will not be televised. That means the revolution is on the inside. It is unavailable for television. It has no real plot or significance. It could be televised, right? It's this incredible experience. It was huge. I had already decided I was quitting my job. And then this. And what? What else is there? Yeah. And look at you now. Are you. Did you land on your feet? You know, was this a great risk? Are you flourishing? Like now? You have the most amazing view. You're out of your four feet. Yeah. You have a rooftop, like you have an upward spiral staircase. And this is so interesting because Wayne Dyer says, change your thoughts, change your life. And ZOA have you Ben and psychology all these years and that got you to where you were and that apartment with the four feet of you. And then you learn positive psychology and look at you now. What's that? To know something. Um, and to be able to teach it and do it and offer healing. I felt very confident in that. There was this piece that was missing around. I think some of it was my own expectation of what's possible in being in a, in a helping profession. Mhm. That mean um relationship with money, relationship with, you know, what I was capable of. I lied to every person who asked me what I did before. I would say I'm an interior designer. I just make up stuff. So zero people would talk to me about psychology in the world. It's just like I felt like I had to be so insulated. I was just burdened by it. And now I tell people, oh. Look at me now. Yeah, you're your authentic self, Amy. Without you're unabashedly Absolutely your authentic self. You have zero barriers to authentic expression. Yay! Thank you. And I wanted that thing. It's it's a work in progress for sure. Um, just tolerating my own internal distress over and over is it just becomes part of. Oh, this. Oh, I'm having a little internal distress. That's okay. What do I want to do with that right now? And then much better. I really do feel like I had a personality overhaul. Does that have people in your life notice this shift and yours and you. Or has anyone commented on a besides your own ideas of yourself as anyone else? I'm like, you know what? Your face has changed or you look 20 years younger or like it. I for sure the people that I'm closest to noticed, um, people at the university noticed and and ask like, what's happening? And, you know, someone came to work with you ultimately. Um, yeah. People could see there was something changing. And I think I'm just so much more comfortable being in the world talking about. Distress. I felt like I would just like. Like, we can we can handle whatever is here. Yeah, sure. That's a major shift. Yeah. I wonder if you would talk about the Three Phases of Happiness, because I was absolutely in that first level, the hedonic pleasure. And like you said, like promotion. I got another promotion. Oh, no. I'm tenured. I got another article. These things that were very external. So maybe you could talk about those three levels. Absolutely. This is one of the most important questions of happiness, because we first have to know what it is in order to actually develop it or work with or know anything about it. So the first type of happiness, 100% of the population has experienced it at some point. It's called hedonic happiness. Anyone eat some chocolate? Buy a new pair of shoes? I I've done both today. Yes you have, because you are really great and you're about happiness and. Yeah, so that's fine. It's fine. Happiness is fantastic. Although it's just unsustainable as a positive emotion that occurs in our brain. When something good happens, we get happy and then something bad happens and that happiness goes away. And so even if you do get a promotion one day, let's say you're driving on the freeway, you see a terrible accident and you get home, and all you really can think about or care about is, in fact, that accident. And so that is because we have negativity bias in our brain, and our brain is addicted to negativity. To a large degree. And so these blips of happiness tend to become our dependence on feeling good. And therefore we have what's called the hedonic treadmill, always getting the next thing that makes you happy, the next piece of chocolate, like you were saying, the next promotion, the next pair of shoes, the next vacation. You know, the next movie fill in the blank. And during Covid, everybody's hedonic treadmill shut down. And so it was hard to handle, you know, where did you get your happiness from during this time? It was a challenge. All your normal go tos, even going to dinner with your friends, you know, unable to do that. So what are you going to do now? And so this is also the problem with the emotional roller coaster. So most people are on the emotional roller coaster. If things are good in your life, you're happy. If things are bad in your life, you're unhappy. And this is basically your experience. Up and down, up and down, dependent on whatever's happening around you. We want out. We want out of that. And also there is the hedonic mirage. So let's say when everything is perfect in my life and I have the right amount of money in my bank account, and I have the right partner, and I have the right house and the right car. When everything is perfect, when the world is perfect for me, then I will be happy. Can anyone relate? And so these modes of hedonic happiness, whether it's the hedonic treadmill, the emotional rollercoaster, the hedonic mirage, let's say you do get everything in your life that you think will make you happy, and you do manifest that mirage. You will become unhappy with it within 3 to 6 months and then back on the treadmill. And so where that's called hedonic adaptation, especially if you're in America, we want bigger, better, more now. And so then we're always constantly unfulfilled. And this is nowhere to live, a thriving life. You will be unable to be flourishing or thriving. And this fear, if you're addicted to hedonic happiness, again, there's nothing wrong with it. Yet we really want to reach for a higher fruit and happiness. And the second type of happiness is called the eudaimonia. Happiness like you do, man, except different eudaimonia. EU is good, a demon is spirit. And I see his nature up. Nature of a good spirit which Aristotle created a long time ago. And American psychology caught up in the early 2000. And so, just as hedonic happiness is a positive emotion in your brain, eudaimonia happiness is contentment in your heart. And so the things that, uh, dictate your hedonic happiness are a person, a place, a thing, or a circumstance. The notes that dictate eudaimonia in your heart are meaning, authenticity, purpose, and strengths. I like to use the Akron of maps from your heart versus your mind. So I mentioned most people are cut off here. And so to go in here to feel that fulfillment, to be actualized as your authentic self, to really, truly grasp your meaning and purpose and use your strengths is a bit of a challenge for a lot of people. And only 1% of the population has experienced eudaimonia. Wow. Any questions so far, Amy? You know, at the time when I was making these huge changes in my life, I thought. Is this more hedonic treadmill because it's so satisfying to do a thing for me. Action is very rewarding and self-reinforcing. And I think you helped me a lot. Sort out the difference between an action that will be rewarding and continue to be rewarding. Every day we say we're grateful for this house every single day. It's in my thank you's at the end of the day. So there was something completely different. It it felt like the pleasure of hedonic happiness. And yet it was so much more. Right. So that is the contentment and the fulfillment. It starts with a blip, maybe, but it also is built up over time. So the first time you were grateful for the house is different than the hundredth time that you were grateful for different aspects of the house that you never thought about before, like your closet or, you know, something like that, because we're always expanding our awareness around gratitude, so we're never actually bored. And that is absolutely true. So one time I was interviewed for a magazine and the interviewer and I were talking about her getting a new Mercedes, and she was like, well, the happiness doctor said I could get it as long as it provided meaning and purpose for picking up my kids at school, I was. So if you focus on the brand, that would be a tonic. If you focus on the purpose and the meaning behind the cars. And that's you know what? And then there's even the third type of happiness, which is chronic happiness, which is spiritual bliss and joy. When you feel something like you're connected to something larger than yourself, like if you go to church, you go to nature, you're dancing, you're at a rock concert with your friends or family maybe sometimes. And this really breeds an opportunity for lightness of bliss and your spirit. So we have this hedonic happiness in our brain. We have eudaimonia happiness in our heart, and we have chronic happiness everywhere. And even less of an amount of people have experienced that. Yeah. How do you know? You know, you described before that hedonic happiness is always there for us. It's always available, right? Like I can get a new pair of shoes and guaranteed, I'm going to be delighted. Right. Like it's always available. And because it's completely unsustainable, it it loses its rewarding satisfaction. Like, well, those new shoes could give you blisters and then you hate them, right? So that happiness is really fast and it's gone. Yeah. I find so many people who are struggling are stuck in that. And they'll say, I'm going to wait until, like you suggested, I'll wait until. I lose the weight, I'll wait until my kid's a certain age. I'll wait until like. This procrastination that seems inherent in this hedonic treadmill. Can you say more about that? It's about the devaluing of our personal responsibility over our own well-being. And so when we think of happiness as a chocolate bar, it's hard to prioritize that in life when we're dealing with, you know, important things like our kids, our career, our health, or things like that. However, when you realize that actually happiness is like the secret ingredient to life, then you want to prioritize it and value it more. And also, most people are unaware of how to learn how to become happy. They only know the hedonic experience of happiness. And so when you only know, hey, shoes in chocolate. Like, how are you ever going to prioritize that in life? And so it's it's unfortunate. Most people are unaware of the amazing benefits that come with this internal contentment and chronic bliss inside. Once you've mastered this emotional regulation to the place of being in the moment, positive thinking, having a constant sense of gratitude, living in your authenticity and your purpose, and Overcoming your fear. Letting go of your anger. The sky is the limit. Look at you, Amy. You're a great student. Great teacher. The. These benefits that you receive, though, are not the reason why you signed up for this. And so if you think to yourself, okay, if I work with Amy, I'm going to have a great house, I'm going to have a great career. I'm going to get along with my husband. I'm going to have a great inspired son who never gets in trouble. I'm going to have all of this fulfillment. I'm going to have so much money in my bank account. I'm going to be traveling the world. Is that really what you signed up for with the Happiness Makeover? I think I signed up to just suffer a little less. Exactly. What would you say to people who dismiss happiness as, you know, something, uh, described as a toxic positivity? Right. Like the spiritual bypassing. I know you've called it. And the idea that there is something like look down upon around pursuing happiness. There there are people who are so unhappy that they look down upon the pursuit. So what would you say to those people? Mhm. Misery does love company. And the misery, um, needs a reason to end. And so what? Most people, if they're without a reason to end their misery. You had a reason. You were had a birthday coming up. And so you were like, oh, this is a significant birthday. So that was your reason to end your misery, or at least change it, or at least think it was going to improve. And so the first, uh, reconciliation is for the self to realize that something is, um, working to the best of your ability. And a lot of times there is a crucible moment, whether it's an important birthday, anniversary, breakup, health condition, you know, most people are unaware that this is even a possibility, even a possibility to become happier or learn it as a skill like anything else. Because I'm sorry, positive psychology has done a bad job with PR like regular. Like regular people are very unaware that positive psychology even exists, or how to be able to use it every day for your own benefit. And so if you're without the awareness of something that you're unable to, uh, know that you value, then you're stuck in your same place. And so until you had a consistent experience with me and my work and it developed over time, and you developed a rapport with me, and I had a reputation. And then the results actually worked and the skills actually benefited you. That's what helped you change your mind the very first time we met, you're probably like, why? And so same thing. Also because happiness has had a bad rap for so long, even though our country is supposedly founded on it. And this is the pursuit of happiness, right? Um, however, people assume happy people are out of touch with reality. And so there is a happy idiot syndrome like, oh, you must be an idiot if you are unhappy or if you are happy because of all of these terrible things that are going on. And so ultimately, we want to cut the cord between all the terrible things going on and your happiness, so we can enjoy our life and actually positively contribute to the bad things that are happening because our brain is better when we're happy versus depressed. Yes. I think that's a huge part of being an advocate or being an ally, is that you take care of yourself. You're you avoid overextending yourself and trying to overperform and a lot of therapists will overwork. And the best work we do is when we're feeling content and happy. The best way to make change, as you said, to contribute to the reduction of chaos right now that's happening is to be, I always say, well rested first, feel good and and be expressive. So yeah. And to address the toxic positivity comment. Never heard that before. So yeah the toxic positivity. Let's give an example. So let's say somebody says something like my mom is dying. And then the toxic positivity response would be like, everybody's parents die. It's fine. It's going to be fine. Just, you know, go out to dinner with your friends. It's going to be okay. Just never mind. It's everybody goes through that. And so, um, a more what I would call positive psychology or compassionate approach or, um, contented approach would be first validating the person's experience, like, hey, I'm really sorry that that is hard. It's never easy for anyone. And I'm here for you during this hard time. And I'm not going to pretend like it's not hard. And I know it is really hard. And so I'm not going to tell you to grin and bear it and smile and do your smile. Push ups. Right now I'm going to honor your grief process. I'm going to help you understand where you are in your grief process. I'm going to help you process your grief, maybe in a positive way, if you're open to it. Yet mostly, I want to validate where you're at and take care of you from that place and offer you some options to proceed versus, um, gaslight your experience into of negativity, into positivity for absolutely zero reason. So explain the difference. Yes. And the idea that. The happy idiot. Um, right. It's really the very insightful, happy person. And I think of we get very myopic, like in nostalgia, where we look back and there was a great time or a terrible time, right? It's it's so myopic. It fails to include the whole picture. And so acknowledging our current struggles and seeing what we're grateful for and the positive aspects of what else is happening, and the people who are fighting back and advocating without seeing the whole picture. We're we're working with blinders, and that's a really fast recipe to struggle when we're dealing with what we want aspect or what we think we want it to be, versus the whole big picture, we really struggle it. I think what you do helps people see so much more about life than merely the burden. Mhm. Thank you so much. And are you familiar? You probably are with Barbara Ehrenreich. Tell me about Barbara Ehrenreich. Oh okay. So she is a very she's unfortunately has passed recently. She was a very, um, astute author of many books. And one of them was called blind sided. And I believe that it was focused on anti positivity. And so she, she was diagnosed with cancer. And so when people were like, hey, just be positive or do your be grateful you're at least alive. Or you know she felt like people were. Uh. In a weird way, like whitewashing her suffering and to making it blindside and being like, hey, forget you're even just diagnosed with cancer. Just be happy, you know that you're alive. Yeah. And, um, she and I actually agree ultimately on on this approach of first accepting your hardship, you have to accept your hardship first, and then you can move beyond that. And this hardship is here to teach you something. And we learn from that, and we move on. And so again, instead of having, um, people say, just be happy or just be positive. And that's a very different approach than, you know, what we actually are, are working with or talking about and positive psychology or, you know, any of my books. So thank you for bringing that up. Yeah, I think it, it sometimes, um, shows up as surprising when I'm happy people what's happening and and when I met you, I was like, what? How much energy does this woman have? And I'm like, oh, now I have that kind of energy, you know, enthusiasm for whatever's happening. Um, and what was talked about in, in Acceptance and Commitment is the acceptance piece. Right? It's half of the work I do. Let's deal with what is. Right. And you have to get there first. Right. Would you talk about the feel better now home study because this is your your opus Magnum, your gift to the world. This is an incredible magnum opus. Yes, my magnum opus. This is my gift to the world. OMG! And Doctor Amy was an amazing editor and noted here on one of the first pages. And so this started in 2007 and it is now available as of October 4th on Amazon. There are 113 activities in here. This is almost everything that someone does and the happiness makeover process. And it is only like 470 pages and so you can do it at home. What is amazing about this feel better now home study is that it can be utilized by anyone over the age of 12. We all deserve to be happy and figuring out how to access your work, right? Like, what you've done with this book is make it accessible to. To purchase a book on online is possible for most people and it. There's something so democratic about its availability that the information is here for us. And I think so many therapists would benefit from using these techniques with their clients. I think everyone would benefit from seeing this shift in perspective. And it like like you said, it's different than, you know, ignoring or blindsiding with positivity. It really is deepening and the possibility to have a deeper, happier relationship with yourself and others. Yes, absolutely. You have control over your emotional experience more than ever before. I mean, most people, okay, this is a really, really, really smart person came to me. He was at Google, he was at Stanford. He has a million PhDs. He's like working in like the highest level of like some biological experiment that no one talks about, you know, like really smart guy. Okay. I was like, how do you become happier? It's like it literally had zero answer, like, zero. He's like cracking the code on like evolution or whatever. And then he's unable to have a simple answer to how to become happier. And that's where this comes in. And so it's literally five steps. The first step is learn how to take control over your own happiness. Become empowered yourself. The second step is learn how to develop a positive mood from the inside out. And. Without having to do anything or pay for it. And so there is a morning routine, a daytime routine, a sleep routine, all of happiness boosting techniques. Amy, can you share about your experience with that? The one that I use every day is Happy Jumps. And, you know, it's just, you know, physical movement and jumping up and down. And I do it in between appointments. Um, the, the physicality of it is it takes so little time. That's been my absolute favorite. Certainly you know the morning routine and gratitude and this lovely check Mark Litt. Yeah a little hey it's it was a lot to to learn all these things because they were so unfamiliar. And now I can hardly imagine. What would I do without these. What could I do without with these? And these are things folks like smiling, laughing, singing, living in the moment, thinking positive gratitude. Exercise. Paying attention to your nutrition. Reflecting positively on your life. At the end of the day, nothing crazy, loving, crazy. And then what happens is that Amy, how many days did you do the morning routine, the daytime routine and the sleep routine? For years, what, 65 times? Why? You gave me some wild assignments, and I want to ask you about some of that. And on my strengths assessment. Since I've been doing this assessment for 15 years. Um, my top strength is always appreciation of beauty and excellence. So, you know, it relates to art. It relates to understanding at great depth. Um, appreciating things that are well done, you know, beautiful architecture, well-written book, whatever it is, that's that's my natural go to way of of seeing things. And you gave me an assignment to go get a facial, like you took what I was already doing and applied it in different ways. Can you just talk like that was the most unusual assignment from a psychologist ever. But I and I've given it to people since then. So can you ask how that makes me? Well, let's talk about before I offer that that answer. Let's talk about your experience before, during and after that facial. Before I'd had a facial at Kaiser, you know, which is the. It's like the medical hospital. Yeah, the dermatology clinic you pay out of pocket. Not like, in your face. Um, and maybe I'd had a facial before that. Um, and during. Oh, it's so blissful. I an hour and a half of laying there, I it was shocking. I still remember, like, every moment of it. I think I was so mindful of it. The woman you sent me to pure magic. And then I, you know, I paid for it. And it was more than I had paid for something like this ever. And I was shocked at the at the cost. Um. And then I text a friend. I just had this magical experience and it was like $300 or $350. And then I bought some products. So it was a lot of money, a lot. And, um, it made me have to value it. I don't know, I had cognitive dissonance, like, how would I ever spend so much money? So I had to, like, resolve it. Like, I think that was part of it. The idea. Right? I could spend more money on this thing that was just for me is like, this could be groceries. Um, and so it was less about the money and more about my willingness to take my earned energy in the form of a dollar to put it towards myself, I couldn't. It was really amazing. And then right afterwards, you started doing videos. Yeah. That's right. Okay, okay. So if you go back to your first video and you look at when you had your facial, you might notice that their coincide. And so this is because what where does your where is your smile. Where is your smile located here. My right here. All the way up starts here right. And so actually the muscular structure of our face, like you said, your face changed because you were smiling now so much. And so if you look at a picture of your face before we met each other, and now there is a difference, because the muscular structure of your face literally does shift. And and you in particular, you look beyond yourself like you said, oh, this is for the groceries or this is for that, or this is for that. So you forget that you're an actual being who needs care and attention, let alone the most important piece of your body, besides your heart and your brain and your face. What is more you than your face? And so for you to treat your face, you need to what it truly deserves pampering. Attention. Cleanliness. We clean every other part of our body, you know, every every every day. Hopefully. However, sometimes we get removed from even our the thing that everybody looks at. You know what we look at our eyes ourselves. Like what? Right. You can't not see your face. You're right, you're I. I appreciate the observation about when my videos coincided. Um, I started one time I came in and my toenails were painted, and when I came to see you and you said, oh, I love it. You have love on your toes. And so I think it it was my own assignment and I, I started going for manicures and pedicures, and it satisfies my appreciation of beauty. And there's so much more to it. It I think before I thought it would have been frivolous. To take an hour when someone should go have a manicure and a pedicure. And I would do it once a year. And so I think, you know, the in society we struggle with. You know, can she be a beauty. Can she also be a brain. And many women tend to develop one and neglect the other so that they're not thought of and whatever that other thing is. And so the, the idea being your full capacity there is zero limits that, you know, our physicality, how we feel because we move our body impacts our mood, our brain, our ability to think. Everything is so related. And I've always understood that. I am the instrument of my work. I have art and I have me. And that's those are the tools I use. So this other aspect felt really extremely foreign to me to focus on something related to aesthetics. I always like to get dressed up that that was always true. It was this other thing that felt, uh, unworthy or on your actual skin, your actual hair, your actual body. That was unworthy. Yeah. The inner Amy. Yeah, yeah, the inner Amy. So we want the inner Amy to. Shine, shine with your manicure. Shine with your facial shine with your exercise. You know, we want that brilliance to be released, Amy. And you were afraid of your brilliance when you were working in your tenured position. Mhm. You wanted to avoid a calling so much attention to yourself. For whatever reason. You're playing it safe even though you are, you know, the creative, right? I think that my focus was on developing myself as an intellectual and it was so myopic. It was just an aspect of me and a piece. And where are you now? With it? With my brain, with your facials, with your manicures, with your, you know, paying attention to yourself. I think it I had to think about budget and putting it into a budget. And, you know, I confessed to you before we went on like how long it took me to find this pair of shoes at the price I wanted. And you call it obsessive. And I thought, yeah, it is a little obsessive now. The amount of labor it took for the price I wanted for these shoes and. I think before I would have simply said, those shoes are not for me and I would have neglected it. Instead of getting the beauty that I wanted because of the price. Because of the price. Right? Right. That's not for me. That's for rich girls or whatever. That's for fancy girls. So I think I have limited or cut back on or stopped those limiting thoughts. There's so much of like, how can I have that, I want that. How can I have that? And it is in an unselfish way now. And I know that my own pleasure and happiness allows me to move in the world and tolerate the distress. Right. You know, the clients I see individually, it's it's about trauma. And so moving in the world and being able to hold all of that and feel entitled to my own happiness was a huge shift. I can be happy even when there's terrible things happening, because you have a better brain to handle it. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure my brain got more clear as I got more happy. Another thing we. When you ask me. Like, what else has changed? There are these little assignments that you gave, like just dropping a breadcrumb. And then ultimately I would pick up on it and one of them was a 21 day, uh, I think I don't know what you called it, but I did avoid drinking. Take my vitamins, you know. Focus on particular emotions for three days at a time. And, um, I did that. If I did that according to your assignment. And then I did it again on my own. And then I did it one more time, and. And I was doing that in the beginning of the pandemic, and I thought that was the time. I'm. I'm complete. I'm not going to drink anymore. And I haven't since then. Yes. And that was I never in my life pictured that I would be a non drinker. I grew up in Cleveland, Ohio, where there was a bar and a Catholic church on every corner. It is such a part of the, um, experience in the world that that there is alcohol. And I thought, wow, this just feels so much better. And my face got better. And at some point, and maybe it was like after a year or so, it was, you know, beginning to socialize again. I thought, oh gosh, am I going to feel awkward and weird and out of place? and it was only me just noticing me that zero people noticed or cared. And then a little after that I'm like, oh, this is I'm enjoying things so much more. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, definitely. Giving up alcohol and consistent alcohol is a really good idea. It's a depressant. And I definitely agree that it's important to put that in the past. And that's unfortunately part of the low hanging fruit of hedonic happiness, where you think that that is going to make you happy for like 10s. And then over time, it actually is really bad and poisonous for your body. And yes, and another, you know, unintended consequence of happiness, sobriety. And you enjoyed your life so much more. It sounds like so much more. And I think about traveling and being without alcohol and it's so much more fun. It's just so much more fun. I had no idea. And I would say I didn't drink that much. Right? There is a giant, massive Grand Canyon hole space between a little bit and none. It is miles and miles and miles different. Yeah. I know. And so you are happier. You're healthier. You're freer. You know, just another. And I. Other than saying I recommend stopping drinking during this time. You were the one who decided to keep going like it was never a real big conversation we had about. Or, you know, I was never like, you better give up alcohol or else we're going to be you. So I have done that with other people. However, with you, you were the one who just naturally did it. It just naturally came to you that that's what you chose, that you wanted in your life. Once I thought it was so obvious that by that third, just 21 day experiment, I was so clear. So if anybody's thinking about making a change, just try 21 days. Just try and then try again and try again. Mhm. Yeah it's really incredible. It is great. Thank you so much Amy I really appreciate you commenting on that. Yeah that's another huge shift. Yeah right. Happiness makeover. Yeah. Would you just talk a little bit before we go about the programs that you do. And I know that the happiness makeover, you have different ways that you engage with people. And, you know, I, I hired you to come work with my staff at the university. You do a lot of different things. So what is it that you're doing these days? Great question. Amy and I really did love that that group that we did together for positivity in the midst of organizational drama. I mean change, haha. Yeah. So we can steer the ship of positivity in the midst of chaos. That's definitely helps in a professional environment. Yes, it is true. I do have a large umbrella. Being a happiness expert, happiness doctor, or somebody in the world. Um, so I get. I offer speaking engagements, I offer corporate consulting. I do one on one coaching. And these programs are, you know, the main one is the happiness makeover. And then there's also the upward spiral, which is half of the, um, the happiness makeover. There's also an anger purge process. So if you're feeling like you have some anger inside and you're just uncertain of how to get rid of it in a healthy way, there's the anger purge. Um, there's relationship programs and also just ad hoc. So anything in life or work, um, specifically can be tailored to you at home. That's what 30 experience does. I also help with childhood trauma. So let's say, you know, you're an adult, yet you have you know, that you had some trauma in the past. I've created a program where you get to rewrite your story. I love it. You're amazing. I'm so glad that you were willing to have a conversation on the podcast with me. It's. I give you so much kudos, and I talk about you all the time, and your teachings show up everywhere. And and in this podcast, I talk about the solutions and the positive, what we can do. And I think everybody knows what I'm talking about. We don't need to say the things that are happening to point to the solutions. And, you know, that's a direct result of work with you to look in the direction you're going, basically. Yes. Yes, absolutely. At first our our eyes are in front of our face for a reason. So we want to keep going in that direction. And Amy, also beyond just yourself and your work. You graced me with the opportunity to work with your son. Yes. It is the highest compliment that I ever give. Uh, you know, when students asked me for a letter of reference, I would say I would let them babysit my child. Right. That that idea of, um, who has access to my child is has always been, like, very careful. Right? Like, I'm very careful. And, um, you just did such cool work. And I think that that blissful calling really helped with college selection. We talk about it all the time as we're looking for schools. Yay! Yeah, well, he is very devoted. He's had over a hundred happiness classes. That's a lot. Everybody was it. That is spectacular. So kudos to him. And I'm glad that you brought this into his life. It's such a game changer at a young age. And you know, we started when he was 12. And Harriet, look at him go, you know what a special time. Yeah. And you've done amazing work. It's really fabulous. Like, how can I thank you enough? So thank you. Thank you for being here. Thank you for sharing your happiness. And I will put links to your site and the books that we talked about in the show notes, so people have access to that. Thank you. It's really powerful, incredibly life changing work that as you mentioned, it's it's gentle, it's with ease. And there's zero forcing. There's options at every turn in your books. So I want to help people see that they can have a look. And it's okay if you feel nervous about making a change just to have a look and see and move in your own time. There is zero pressure. Zero pressure and just the happiness. Yes, that's the best thing can happen. And it it works. Yes, I do think it's better than electric shock. There was one thing you wanted me to talk about, Amy, which was my multiple roles with my students. And I want to address that. Are you open to it? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Do you want to ask me? Well, I know from feminist psychology that when we think of our work, we understand that healing happens in community. And that idea of the very formal, tabula rasa, Freudian formality is, is rather inappropriate for women that we connect. There's strength in community in really powerful ways. And so, um, the idea that there's a rigidity of no dual relationships. And even in teaching master students, we say it's it's navigating to all relationships. It's. Sorting out what what's possible to be in community together for a healing experience. And so you work with me. You work with my son. I hired you on in other ways. Um, you're here on this podcast, so it maybe looks really different than, you know. Here I am with my psychologist. It looks different than a than traditional old fashioned therapy. So I'm curious about how you can sexualize all of that. That's true. Well, there is the, you know, psychoanalytic approach where you're only the psychologist and that's all you are for people. And that's very, you know, singular. And fortunately for me, I have a PhD in organizational psychology. So I'm without any like clinical boundaries or licensure or appropriated, um, guardrails per se. Of course I have ethics and we had ethics in classes and stuff like that. However, I've always approached my work more of an educational experience versus a healing opportunity. Even though massive healings have occurred during this process, it is still founded on the concept of education. And so I'm educating you on how to use positive psychology. I'm educating your son on how to use positive psychology. I'm educating your team and how to use positive psychology. I'm educating the public through your podcast on how to use positive psychology a little bit. And so this is really the umbrella that I operate under. More of a teacher umbrella, more of a, you know, a friendly comrade. I can be my authentic self. You can be your authentic self. You've come to my home. You know, so there are places where we can connect in a more natural capacity. Because again, what am I doing? I'm helping you develop a gratitude practice. I'm helping you learn how to live in the moment. I'm helping you, you know, develop these particular skills versus diagnosing you with a disease or, you know, treating you the way the DSM tells me to, or standing up to my licensure, these particular long held beliefs around the single role. Does that answer your question? Yes. And what you bring to it is an understanding of hierarchy and a I thou relationship that it it is focused so much more on you said education consultation. Encouraging. And it really does, I think, embody the feminist ideal of like a dual relationship in the best possible way that you are able to work with people in so many facets of what you do. Thank you. Yes, I do agree with that. We started with a women's group that I came to teach at and a public place at a store. You know, so the concept that we are only a singular role, I think is fallible in general. And so in authenticity there is multiplicity. And so for us to be able to embrace that and all aspects of life is really important for our contentedness. And if you go back in time and you ask Freud, hey, were you very content while you were in your role? You know, maybe he would offer a different you know, what an answer to that. Indeed. Because I don't think he was actually remembered for his contentedness. So I'm like, I, you know, the this conversation's been really great to think about how you work outside of the box in so many ways, and yet you are completely within the evidence based positive psychology, happiness psychology world. There is a freedom in how you apply what really is proven, and you've demonstrated your work over and over again. And you your experience in doing this is such a gift. So I'm really glad that you were willing to have a chat. Yeah. Thank you so much, Amy. This is my first podcast and many years, and I'm happy that you broke the streak of, um, taking a break. So Doctor Amy is back on Doctor Amy's show, and, you know, this is the modern creative woman. Everybody. This is what we do. We break barriers. We break free. We draw out of the lines and make our own pictures. You know, no one taught me how to become a happiness expert. And no one taught you how to be modern, creative woman. And so this is us embodying and being our authentic selves, and we're able to improve the world. Yeah. Well said. Thank you, thank you.