112. Women in Leadership: Interview with Dr. Shilpa Reddy

Transcript

I am so excited to bring you this conversation with Doctor Shilpa Reddy. She is currently the Mental Health Service Chief for the Veterans Administration Clinical Resource Hub in Visn 21, and that's a virtual mental health program that serves Nevada, California and the Pacific Islands. And she has been a tele mental health psychologist since 2016. She provided care originally to rural and in particular, underserved populations in the VA, and over the last 22 years, her work has spanned three different countries India, Australia, the United States, and she brings a deep awareness of the issues that influence health and illness. And she sees the big picture in a way that no one else can. She has served in multiple leadership positions at the local and national psychological associations. She's been on the San Francisco Psychological Association board, the Asian American Psychological Association And Division of South Asian Americans and the Executive Committee. As secretary and historian there at the VA. Her her accomplishments and experiences go on and on. Her past leadership positions include being the chair of Psychology Continuing Education Committee. She's assistant director of the Externship Training and chair of the Mental Health D-I Council. All of that, and I get to call her my friend. She is the woman who convinced me that I could do some work online. And in 2016, she and I started doing an assessment research project for a company in India. We've done multiple trainings in acceptance and commitment therapy, where we've taught people about how art can have a huge impact in the way they think and use Act. And I met her originally at the VA as part of a research study. She is a delight and this is a peep into much more of her personal life. We're not talking so much about her professional life. This Doctor Reddy was amiable to have a conversation and talk about what it's like to be a woman in leadership. So let's get into this. Let's get this started. 

It is such a pleasure always to talk with you. And we've been friends a long time. Thank you for having me. Doctor. Because I'm very excited to be here and connect with you again. Well, in that in 2010 11, I'm working on a research study at the VA with Doctor Christy Samuelson, and we became friends with Laura Nada. And I looked forward so much to working with the two of you. It was so fun and so funny to be in the room with the both of you and me. It was, you know, we both had young children. You know, it wasn't easy in graduate school, but we could kind of laugh and disconnect because we asked our what the zombie apocalypse was. I think that was very funny and kept us grounded with what to do. Yeah. Yeah. It's something that I always noticed in, you know, a hospital or a nurse's office. Just going to the doctor. As a kid, I remember the nurses having so much fun and, you know, visiting people in the hospital. The nurses would be so engaged in making their themselves feel good so that when they went to see the patients, they were present and ready. And I know sometimes people would get upset when nurses are laughing and having a good time on a serious floor, but they're really warming themselves up and preparing themselves to be buoyant in the face of stressful situations. I agree. I mean, I think you have to take care of yourself through laughter when you see so much distress because people, you know come to a hospital in distress. So they want to be the we have to, you know, hold that. We have to be able to laugh and be connected to our colleagues through laughter, and then we can be present. Yeah. Patients. Yeah. I in the modern creative woman, I always ask women on a scale of 0 to 10, how present are you right now? And I ask at the beginning of every class and again at the end. And that idea of making contact. Is so quick. When we're laughing, we're in the moment through laughter. I really appreciate that. I got to work with you and Laura there, too. Me too. And you make such a good comment about laughter and connection and and not and being present because, you know, I've noticed when I do go to watch comedy, it is not very often. Also, I haven't thought about anything about de-stressing or about life actually, outside of that show. Just in the moment I went to my first comedy show last year, you know, like Comedy Shop. And you're right. It was so present moment awareness. And you stay focused because you know the beginning jokes will eventually conclude at the end of the show, so you don't want to miss anything. Yeah. Well, there's been so many ways that you have inspired me, and I'm so happy that you're here today, because who you are as a person, as a woman, as a psychologist, as. Profoundly shifted how I think about the work, not just the piece around laughter, but the piece of who you are as a person which is so dedicated to service. Being in a space with people to support them, it is taxing, and you have figured out a way to keep renewing yourself and refreshing yourself and continuing it. You've moved up the ladder quite a lot now since we first met as researchers, and there's something about who you are that I think people really, really admire and want to push you into these leadership positions. And that's so amazing. Do you feel that way that you're, like, balanced and constantly renewing? Because that's how I perceive you. Wow. Uh, Amy, you are such an inspiration to. So to hear you say that, I'm like, is that really me? But I do. I do think that I it's a combination of people who have pushed me into these places, and I have gotten through some of my own doubts to say I can do this. That has pushed me into these places. And you know, to also see impact. And, you know, I've all like you said, AI services are very important value. And so if I can be of service to one person. The one on one therapy, maybe through leadership I can impact and be of service to many people. And that's the the Northstar that I try to work. So whether it's, you know, one person or a lot, um, I think that's what's driven my entire career. Is this correct that you are instead of imagining all the psychologists and doctors that you're supervising, you're imagining the people that they impact. Is that. Yeah, I think that's the most important piece, because no matter where you work, there will always be an element of care or an element of, um, you know, what people are saying and doing the critiques, the, you know, the so they'll always be there. So if you have what you love doing and your value as your not. So I think all of the other stuff falls away. And I think that's the only way that I've been able to cope, because I think leadership can be glamorized. Right? Like all you. You're up there, you're doing big things, but there's all the little things that you have to take care of. And I care deeply about my team so I can take things really personally when I take care of the little pieces. And so that can get you exhausted. So I have to put that aside and say, why am I doing this? And it is because, you know, having impact through service is really important. You have a quality that is I just think of like my dog. If he if we bump into him, he gets startled for a moment and then moves on, you know, or he barks, lets us know he moved our feet too much on the sofa, is disturbed and then right back in the present. And there's this quality that you have that I really admire. And I it's, it's like that where you process and digest and metabolize, I think very quickly. And you're very forthcoming about it. You have a really good way with words about how about my process? But it is true that, you know, I might be to some extent seeking out internally, but I think also culturally freaking out internally is okay. And then having to have the presence of mind, whether you're like the, you know, I am an only daughter to the family, I am the mother and the, you know, a, a leader in, in places where I have to find some kind of semblance of order and structure. So I think that plays a role in like, okay, it's going to pass. It has with all of the other roles that I play. So let's just, you know, take it for what it is right now. And then again, like I said, the North Star, whether it's a daughter or mother, a leader is always present. And that's, I think, what helps me move, uh, quickly to let's see what we can do about it. Um, yeah. Do you feel like you speak out internally a lot? Uh, not so much like now as I used to. I think I used to freak out internally. I mean, in every new situation, whether it's being a new mother or whether it was, you know, I left home and had to take care of parents, like, uh, you know, remotely. And then my, you know, I moved into a leadership position about six years ago now. And so it was on you at the time. But I think over time it's become more less and less the frequent freakout internally. But and then realizing that's not helpful, let me just tell people that, yes, this is a difficult thing for me, but let's see what we can do. You're so forthright. I have an example of you just metabolizing quickly and moving on. We were planning to meet a couple of weeks ago and hadn't firmed up. Exactly. We thought Saturday morning and Friday night you messaged me and said, um, I can't, I'm still at my your daughter's dance recital. And Saturday morning just wasn't going to work. And then we agreed to Sunday and I overslept. And you wondered and you just asked me you didn't, like, linger with it? You asked me. Oh, no. I thought maybe you were mad at me for cancelling Saturday. You just asked you. You didn't make assumptions or move in a way that assumed I was mad when I overslept and was late. I think that's also growth rate. I don't think I was like this 10 or 15 years ago. And I think through my own work with my clients, I definitely apply all of that to my son as much as possible. I'm human. And I was like, can I make this assumption that Amy's mad at me? And then, like, mull over it for the next hour or maybe two and then worry when this is a really good friend of mine that I can just ask, like, hey, are you mad at me? Uh, you know, you kind of had a lot of a busy time this weekend. And so I wasn't processing or even looking at my phone as much, which is maybe a good thing on weekends, right? Well, I just wanted to. Yeah. So I was able to check in with you, like, no, I overslept. I thought you might be upset about that. And we just moved on, but I think me also, I would have felt so guilty 10 or 15 years ago that I had to push our meeting back, you know, half an hour or something like that. I would have felt so guilty and so embarrassed. When in fact it doesn't matter, right? I'm just meeting for coffee and a walk. Yeah. We've come a long way. Yeah. Do you remember we were preparing to do an Act presentation. I don't remember which one. And you said, let's experiment with some of these exercises that you had found. And we looked at each other's eyes for two minutes straight. Eyes on. And that's the exercise from act. Yeah. And I think about that a lot because it's such a, like an intimate and vulnerable thing to look people in the eye. Mhm. And there are times I will assign my patients to, you know chin up and look at people finger your eye contact. You know when you're getting your coffee or make eye contact at the end of a purchase at the grocery store. And it feels so vulnerable for people who just don't want to be seen. Yeah. And I think I'm okay being seen. Even among friends and my family. But out in the world, it's so much harder to, like, have that look at people. And that two minutes of looking in your eyes was really, really helpful. Yeah, that is a very helpful exercise because it's it's, you know, you're looking into someone's eyes, right? And you're also processing oh my God, they're looking at me. Are they looking at my nose. Are they looking at my check. My lipstick on a is my am I wearing the right earring. And that goes on for like the first few seconds. And then after that you're like, oh, this is just another human being like me, you know, who probably has their own thoughts rushing through their mind. And I'm just thinking, you know, and this was with my clinical supervisor, an internship, you know, a white male adult older than me. And I got paired in. We were sitting around doing the Act workshop, and we had to turn and look to the person to the left. And I kept saying, please, please be the person to fight. I do not want to look at my clinical supervisor. But that's kind of the process I went through. Was 15 seconds, like, what did he think of me? Oh my God, you know what's happening? And then I felt the kind of compassion for him because he had to look his supervisee in the eye for two minutes to see what it was like. You know, it's a good experience to connect with regardless of people's thoughts, political affiliations, you know, whatever is going on with the work at the grocery store. It just is like, okay, you're just another human being. And I just want to look at you for a bit. I'm okay doing that. I think it helps people that exercise. Yeah, I think the the women who listen to this podcast are curious about themselves and who they are on the inside and the outside, and, well, exercise is simply to find someone and set your timer for two minutes and look them in the eyes. It could be a friend. It could be your partner. It could be your dog. Yeah, the experience of looking until the thoughts calm down, the chatter in your mind is done. And then you notice the color of their eyes or the the shape of their eyebrow. You become interested in something that is real and true instead of your own thoughts. All right. And it just it's such a learning experience. You know, the first time somebody does that and then you feel more comfortable in yourself once you start doing that? Yeah, I think like not you're you're not here representing the VA. You're here is my friend and colleague of many, many years. And we've co-presented. We've co-taught. And from that perspective, as a woman psychologist, I wonder if you could just go back a little bit and share your own experience. You mentioned being a, you know, an only child, caretaking for your parents. What were those maybe cultural and family expectations around education, and then what was your own interest in pursuing all of this education to be a doctor of psychology? Yeah. Wow. Um, so I'll just repeat again, I am representing myself as a psychologist and friend, and I, I work representing any views of the of my work. Yeah. Yeah. And then, uh, just thinking about all of the expectations. I mean, definitely there was a huge value in education in my family. There wasn't, uh, any doubt that I would finish my undergraduate like there was. There is no, you know, no way that you were not going to college. Well, hey. Now, and that's pretty prevalent in, uh, quite a bit of Indian cultures. Like, you have to, uh, if you have the means, you have to get an education. Right. And then for myself, um, you know, I, I really admire my parents. They both have college educations. And my mother also has had a has a master's degree. Um, but they always instilled in me that I have to be able to stand on my own two feet no matter what. And at the time, it was kind of mixed messages for most women my age is like, you have to be able to stand on your feet, but you also have to be married and have children. Um, and they did focus a lot on education. Like I had to fight my grandfather. And you know, when a decision is made in India, it's not just your parents. Make the decision. Once I decided I was going to leave the country to study, I had to present it almost to my grandfather and my maternal uncle, who I love dearly. Both of them. And I remember both of them saying, but why don't you get married and then go through your PhD? Why do you want to? Or masters at the time? Why do you want to do that now and then? I had to fight that. And my parents stood by me in that fight and I left. To study before I was married. Right. So, uh, you know that. So it was really important and that they instilled that in me, and they were okay with me going away to study. I did do my PhD after I moved here, and I was married and had children, so that came later. But, you know, it was important to me to really make sure that, um, and once I think once I got here, I realized I couldn't be. I went to Australia, studied and became a psychologist. But when I moved here, I couldn't be a psychologist or do any of my have my own research study or any of that with a master's degree? Right. I started I started working at a graduate school as a research assistant, research coordinator, and then one of my mentors who used to walk by all the time and sit in my office. You're never going to be, you know, your principal investigator of your study. You have to do your PhD. And so my first two mentors. Encouraged me as well. So it was a village that helped me get my degree, right? Yeah, well, it's interesting you got the message of take care of yourself, be able to take care of yourself. And the message of shouldn't you be married before you go to learn how to take care of yourself? How did you know that you were ready to go? I think for so many women, we think, oh, I'd like to do that. Maybe I could do that. And we delay and we delay and we fantasize and don't take action. How did you know? I'm ready to go. How did you do it? I don't know if I processed it at the time. That's what I wanted. I went to a very competitive high school. A lot of kids at the time left to do higher education, whether it was outside of my city or outside of the country. So that was kind of like a, you know, I watched people do that. I was the first woman in my family to leave India to study. A lot of people, a lot of my aunts have left and come, you know, moved to different parts and studied after. But I was leaving to study before I was married, so I was the first. And it was definitely scary. But I was also in a town where everybody knew my family and I wanted to just be anonymous. That was another big, uh, inspiration for me to leave. And so, uh, that's kind of what those two pieces were scary, for sure. Um, but I think if you have the support of your parents, who themselves have pushed themselves out of their comfort zone in terms of functional, uh, standards, then you can, you know, you can do it. I was very fortunate to have both of them be able to support me, to leave before what was expected at the time in my family. Wow. I think that feeling must be part of what you carry forward is that, you know, people believe in you and support you, and you have that really unconditional support from your parents that allowed you to say, I want to do it differently. Yeah. And it's just making me emotional even thinking about it now, because it would not have been easy for them to go against, you know, my grandfather saying, why are you sending Val and she's not married? But, um, I think it was it. I'm very indebted to them for doing that and holding like, you know, holding everyone back while I could go forward. Oh, what a great image. You could draw that out. Yeah. Your parents holding back the all the cultural norms of the time. Well, my family. But I got the message. Also, I had to go to college. It wasn't even ever discussed. Both my parents and pastors. My dad had this plan to go as far in his doctorate until he reached the highest pay grade, and then he dropped out. It was very pragmatic. Um, and my mom had started her PhD and didn't end up finishing. She's the smartest woman ever, just so right. And she always said a couple of things to help me go, which was, you know, the man you love at 16 isn't necessarily the man you're going to love at 18 or 20 or 25. And like, she really helped me imagine, like a long trajectory of my life. And she also said, if you're going to get married and you marry for money, you will work very, very, very hard for that money. And I thought, well, I don't want to work for my money like that. I want to work for my money for. It's like a way that I have control over. And so that was really, really helpful. I think she's a she's a very wise woman. And you know, in that like that same theme of support. I think that's what my husband is as well. Right. He's supported me throughout my pizza and I did well. Uh, it's for that reason. Yeah. And so to be able to have those supports and messages that are, are covered right all over our support systems really support us in getting to where we want. Yeah. And working hard for love, as she said. Um, you know. Yeah. You know, that was not what I wanted either. That's right. I think another aspect that really helped me move forward was that my dad always said such kind things behind my mom's back about her, and still does to this day. You know, all. She's a genius. Did you know that she got an IQ test? Um, she's so smart. She's a lovely woman. Like, just demonstrating so much respect for her. Helped me have respect for myself. And he ultimately said, oh, well, I became a feminist for you. Leave me. I, I think that's how a lot of men come to kind of understand feminism is they have a daughter. Yeah. Right. I see that. I saw that in my father, and I see that in my husband as well. And I think the parallels that we draw is also. My father used to say these things. About my mother, who was, you know, she was a gold medalist for my undergraduate in Austin, and she never showed me the medals. She she had put it away, but he used to always, you know, her mother's a gold medalist. She would sit, snaps and stuff. She was embarrassed. You're right. Those kind of messages sit with you and and you know that your, you know, your father respects your mother. And the same way that was in sports as well. Sometimes I didn't say things to my children about me, and I'm just like, oh my God, it's so sweet. I think that we can all use that today by avoiding negative gossip, right? There's all this research that shows the the problems that gossip creates internally and externally. It does not behoove us, except in one circumstance. And that's when women get together and they talk about others for the purpose of safety. You know, if there are people who are unsafe for women to be around, that's the function of talking about others. But we kind of let go of that peace. And many people just talk gossip about others and I. Challenged myself a number of years ago because I saw a lot of students at the university. Gossiping, and this one was just gossipy. And I put together a whole lecture about why we shouldn't gossip and. You know, there's one purpose for gossip. And if safety is an issue, you should come and talk to me about it. Yeah. And I learned from my coach about good gossip, where you compliment people behind their backs. And when we. Gossip in a negative way. The person listening thinks of us in that negative way. During that time as well, when we talk about good gossip, it sets up a ripple effect, just like. You know, our father's talking great about our mothers. Yeah. The ripple effect for us and our family. So listeners can just start right now, today. Doing a little good gossip and cut back on the gossip about others. Unless it's a compliment or praise or. Wow. Being able to spread the positive. We're orienting others to look for the positive as well, and we have such an impact in that way. You're right. You know, finding inspiration in the women that you are, you know, that are in your Soho, right? I see one of my great friends who became a coach or, you know, later in life in the 50s, you know, many other friends, the same namesake in Edinburgh who, you know, uh, trained as an architect and now as a counselor or, you know, all my, uh, my elementary school friends who, I mean, my children's elementary school friends, mothers who became my friends. And I just find all the little changes and each of them sort of provide some kind of inspiration to me. Right. And how you changed your own trajectory of your career. You really, you know, the head of the department about therapy at two different universities and then jumped into this is what I want to do. I want to write my books about your newest book, Feel Fantastic. Right? And and I'm just like, that's what you want to focus on. Rather than, do you know what happened with this book? Then we are setting the tone for the long night. It doesn't feel as negative or positive throughout the whole system. If you're going to bring that in. Your conversations is a great example of a positive, energetic person. She's amazing. And the idea of, you know, pivoting midlife is it's it's hard, it's challenging. And, you know, she's done a beautiful job of that. She and I did a really cool presentation together. I remember attending that. Yeah. Well, thank you for bringing up the book. I'm very excited about it. It is a total shift from the other books I've written. And a couple of years ago, when I left the university, I was talking with my publisher about writing something that was from me, you know, from my theory perspective. And I, you know, she wanted to wait and see how the last book went and it it. She said, if you want to do more academic books, we got you. No problem. And I felt pretty depleted enough to do the academic book as a whole. It's like a little dissertation. It's a year and one. Yeah. And I wanted to do something that was creative, that I could give people the opportunity to do expressive, creative art at home and in our conversations. She said, yeah, I think it's the right time to, you know, step away from all the academic writing to give people something that is much more practical and accessible. And I'm so excited about this book. It's going to have a very much a modern, creative woman twist and bring a lot of the things I'm doing inside the membership to a much wider audience. I think I think I agree with you because, um, you know, just like having a bigger impact, right? I think. Uh, I, I do believe that academic books are very important. Right? And I think what this book is going to do is have the wider impact on the people in the front line helping others, or even people who want help in the moment. So I think it will have a wider impact on people who are intimidated sometimes by picking up a book to read, if they can just pick up a book and say, this is how my clients or I am feeling in the office through this, this particular aspect of something, and then that's that's it. That's for today. It really like sits with how, you know, you, you focus so much on the present moment. And that's like a sort of evidence of I'm just going to use it for this moment right away. That's okay. I think that's an important for many of us to, uh, you know. Thank you. Thank you for that. It it makes sense to be able to pick up a resource and just open the open the page in front of you and try something that really is making contact at the moment. Just try something right then and there. I wonder if you. I guess back to work. If you have experienced in any of your extensive career where you needed the support of other women in that moment, or other women have supported you. And I have an example. Um, it's it just the stereotypes unfold right in front of us. So a woman in a meeting shared an idea. We were all bouncing off one another to have ideas to solve a particular problem. And then a man repeated what that woman had said, and people said, oh yeah, good idea. And immediately this woman I admire jumped in and said, that's exactly what she just said a minute ago. Yes. It was so amazing to see everyone's expression, right, that women were very excited. Um, the man who repeated the idea was like rather surprised. And he said, oh yeah, you're you're right. Yeah. Yes. Because I think when a man says it, it's sort of almost like there's a higher volume to that particular idea. And it said with, uh, a sort of like this, it's so definitive, like, this is my idea. That's so often in a meeting of, you know, men and women leaders, then that idea gets owned by that. But I think as women, if we can amplify and increase the volume as well as the confidence, you know, of the woman who has presented that idea, I think it's it's our responsibility to do that. That's how we're going to support each other. And I think it's whether, you know, sometimes there are quieter men who don't do it either. So I'm not saying it's I think it's important. But most importantly, because I think we are sort of I think we are programmed not to, uh, you know, to sort of forget that we said that or we are not programmed to listen to the male voice. So. Oh, Amy, I think I'm, uh, frozen. Is this still working? Uh, okay. I think you're right that we are programmed and it's often unconscious. Yeah. So we're programmed. So I think we have to deprogram a little bit. And I think it's our responsibility for women in leadership to help with the reprogramming of our younger colleagues, to give them the space and the platform to be able to. Use their ideas, present their ideas, and then once it's accepted, build that confidence to present more ideas. And I think I have been lucky with having both women and men, male mentors who have done that for me. Um, I had Jennifer Boyd, who was one of my mentors, said to me, who really helped me, uh, use my voice. Um, and then I've had, you know, even before when I first moved here, Larry Butler, Larry, uh, Thompson and, uh, Bob Reiser, who are my mentors, who helped me with that. And then I have Vicky, uh, Monte Sano, who was who's from Ohio, where you're from, who was, um, my mentor briefly, when I worked at an agency where we were doing trainings. And I can hear her voice sometimes in my voice, in my head when I am in meeting because she's always like, you can be the leader. And I was with the family and she was like, no, you can't be this. She kept telling me that, you know, and for me, for me to hear it even today suggests that if she said that because I say, Jennifer, I love that you're calling out all the people who have supported and mentored you. It's very, you know, collaborative. It's it's scholarly humility, it's relational ethics to share the successes that you had. And it's also culturally because I feel that people were like meant to them. They felt a mentor me and I have to pay them all. And I don't do that as an obligation. I do that because I yeah, and I don't stand on myself. I do stand on the shoulders of people and so forth is very important. It does give you humble, you know, and it also shows you that you. So it's it's a it's kind of an interesting. Concept for me because it's a, you know, humility is really important. But also so is the idea of confidence and the ability to own what you did yourself. I think that a balance between those two helps, right? You know, like practically speaking, you've experienced people speaking up for you. I gave you my example. Um, what I've tried to do, and in working on my own internalized sexism and my own experience of, um, racism, that I'm trying to undo the implicit biases I have around race and sex and culture. And it's a lifelong process. Um, and as a white woman, I really try and attend to. How am I being collaborative? How am I moving in ways that is not collaborative? And one thing that I think has helped me is to pay really careful attention to who says what and say their name and say, I want to piggyback on what you just said. You want to respond to what you just said so that it I'm not giving the impression that I'm taking their idea. Yeah, I think that's important. Just like Amy was saying. It's really important that we credit the person that provided the idea. Yeah. Yeah. There is this psychological thing that happens, and I've long forgotten the name that we hear things enough times and we think maybe we thought of it. And that's how accidental plagiarism happens. Mhm. Where we read an article so long ago and, and it was around in our head. We write it down and you know you can get higher in your education and you, you know, to go look again and again and research redoing redo the search. Yeah. But in the beginning for newer academics, they have to pay such careful attention to that thing. We don't even know we're doing it. But we have to kind of challenge our mind to say. Is it possible someone else thought of this? Is it possible I read this somewhere else? Yeah. Again, it's that same balance of humility and knowing what you can own. Really? Because we I mean, thousands of hundreds of millions of people before us have had thoughts about things. That's a big part of that. So to be humble is important statistically. Could someone else have thought about this? It's a great idea. I'm excited. And then maybe also owning part of it. You tweet it? Yeah. It can be hard in the beginning because you have that, you know, you worry that you are literacy and you also want to innovate. You have to balance the two. And that's why mentorship is so important right off of people. And your connection with community and the expectation of generating new knowledge when someone goes on to get their doctorate. That's the expectation is that you are generating something new. And there's pressure to do research that's novel. And there's a real, um, there's a lack of recreating studies for validating that, because everybody feels that pressure to invent something new. And you're right, from all of humankind, people have had thoughts and ideas about such things. I think as an academic and, you know, I used to be on theses and dissertation committees. It's been a while, but that used to be my method because I heard it as well. You don't have to change the world with your answers. You just have to see does it replicate with your population? And just like that? What are they? And that's actually a, you know, thought that I hope that students won't because inevitably there can be violence. And sometimes I think it's a universal fear taking what you just said to everyday experience. It's a universal human fear to think, what if I don't make an impact? What if I'm not special? What if I'm not important in some way to somebody? Yeah, and I think that we didn't get those messages often on don't be nobody. Be somebody. You can be a somebody being kind to someone on the street. But I think we make more of it. Right. And as women especially, I think more of it. And then that leads us further of seeing what we see on social media or all the different societal messages that. You know, breakfast for your kid in the morning is special. And if you're leaning into, I think, self leadership, the idea of doing what feels important and to be of service is I universally and philosophically encourage to let yourself be of service in some way. Breakfast for the kids is being of service. It's not necessary to, you know, run for government office to be of service or devote your entire career to a nonprofit. I think that women struggle with that at all. Because despite, you know, being in leadership or, uh, whether it's in technology or mental or all of the other professions, there's always the pressure, like, am I doing enough as a model? Right. And that I think that is ever present. But to know that there are like tiny pieces. Like, for example, I've got a very busy. And last night I just wanted to binge watch TV and my daughter was not feeling too good. So my husband was like getting her Tylenol and getting her food. I was just sitting there and I was like, oh my God, I'm not doing this for her as a mother. And I just had to step back and say, I don't have what I can do right now, but this morning I can hit Houston and say, I'm feeling better. And that's also something small. Can you hear it? You resisted the urge to do everything all the time, constantly. And you? It sounds like you were just open to your husband doing, and you were receiving his care as well. He was caring for your daughter with the, you know, checking on her Tylenol, but also caring for you. What did you think while I binge watched you? Because he knew that I had had a baby. And so I was okay. You know, even though I had both the thoughts jumping in my mind for a little while, I was like, and I can change the thought of the gratitude I have for him that he can see this is all I have. You know, I feel really grateful that I was able to see that we all grew up in a society that is very different, right? That it has expectations of men and women. And he's still able to see that. See. So I feel like the minute I focus on that and I feel grateful for him and the things that he does that I can be like, okay, I'm being grateful right now when I'm able and I will, I'll do my best. In my work with my happiness psychologist Amy, she, I interviewed her a few weeks ago. She spent a long time helping me be open to receive, and I really spent so much time trying to put down that idea of like, I got to do it all. It really is kind of a, um, it's a traumatic response to life when you think you have to do it all yourself. It's frantic thinking. Being receptive to communities was challenging, and I value community. I engage give. And there was something about me not being able to receive the things I really needed, like the breaks. Yeah, I think community is so important. I'm very grateful for the many communities that I am part of. And, you know, my husband and I talked about this and we laughed and built up in here. I left our home communities in the dark. You know, you were at my birthday. You saw my various communities. And I think that that's really important in our friendship. Like, we've leaned on each other so many times. And I could be where I am and who I am with our families, our extended family. That I am very much a part of. My cousins, my aunts, my mother and my mother in law who are the strength of that family. You're so open to receiving assistance in work and in parenting and using community in a way that you're both contributing, you're receiving. Is there any part that you struggle with to receive rest because you are receiving that support in the moment? Let me just lay down. Is there any struggle to receive that kind of support? I think it's always a struggle to receive, uh, you know, the kind of support where you're you're sitting and, uh, when there are 100 things to do and the expectation that, you know, the woman is the person who takes care of the sick child, right? Uh, not that that has ever been explicit in the way that the husband has said it to me. It's my own assumption from society that messages. Right. And so it's always difficult. So there's always the thoughts that come in that I think from, you know, just like all of our work would act, those thoughts are going to come in. And can you still have them see them. And in that moment what you need is rest. And can you, can you take that even for a few minutes. And I took it for many hours yesterday. But I think it's important that, you know, I think the message that we should never have these thoughts is unrealistic. They're going to be there. It's what you decide to do with them is what's going to help you move forward in any situation. And maybe that will be for a minute. Like, I could have had five minutes of thinking this could have. And then they came back at, you know, half an hour later. And then I dealt with it. But if I fight it, I'm going to keep looking at that. So I'd rather not fight it out like this and be okay with that and be okay with it coming up again. And after another 15 minutes, rather than fighting it. I've never regretted asking for help. Yeah, it's just sometimes challenging to ask it. And I think it's important, as you know, in leadership. Because it's like you're supposed to know the answers. You're supposed to get at me. How come you don't know this answer? Not that anyone is saying that explicitly, right? But that is the expectation as you get higher. And I think it's important for leaders and women leaders to be able to be vulnerable and say, I don't know this answer because I think even more so for us. The expectation is higher. I gave you this chance to be a leader. Prove it right. I do think in. The public sphere. Women in leadership are criticized in many aspects. What they do, what they say, how they say it, how they look, what they're wearing. There's just so much more on the table that gets criticized. It's it's disturbing. Yeah. It's a lot of criticism and, um, expectation I think is huge. Yes. There's still that you have to stay, you know, on thinking that nothing will move you down. The move is not there anymore. So you have to stay. Be the stable force out there. And that's unrealistic. It's not moving. We all have our political opinions, and it's probably better to show someone that you can be vulnerable and say that I have nothing left. Right. I think you're very good at holding that emotional space for people without reacting yourself that you are able to. I think using Act, but it's through you. So there's there's part of you that is able to create space for others who are having a reaction, and you're responding with your values. You're not kneejerk reacting. Yeah, I think that's really important. You know, in terms of realizing that that's important when people are feeling, you know, in their own minds or in their environments or insecure in their environment. It's important to, you know, acknowledge that they're feeling like that and then try to see how they can move forward. Wow. What is what is what is important. And your what you value is what is important. So if you keep moving like a boat in the storm, you know one of the videos needs to show in our training, right? With the boat in the storm, the boat knows where it needs to go. And even though the storm waters and stormy waters and the wind is pushing it in the wrong direction, as long as it knows the direction that it's meant to go in to move forward. And I think that's what, you know, helps me in situations that can be, uh, unstable. Though my teams are my communities. Whatever it is, is to have that be. No, you're not okay with that. When I grow up, the idea of values, it's one of the core principles in acceptance and commitment that we keep going round and round the world towards our values. We never check. Done. Service is never. You can't put service on your to do list, and it's really a process experience of moving towards how can I be of more service or how can I be loving in my relationships? Exactly. It's not. It's not, I think and I think that concept is important for people to understand and learn, because we're in a culture that's very goal oriented. We're in a culture that has to do lists and goals for the goals for the week, and and we have to get marks. But I think what has to be the umbrella of all of those things is your values. And to recognize what those are is really important, because then you can say, okay, well. Even if I didn't do all my ten things, I move towards metabolism. That actually gives you the stability or emotional stability to move forward. Because if you're going to look at the endless To-Do list or the whole list that you were not able to get to today. It's not going to help you. Yeah, I think you've really been able to hang your sense of self and your worth on these areas that have always been important to you. Right. Knowledge and wisdom and service and contribution. Community. Those are all my words too. So. Yeah. Yeah. Just being loving, however it is. It's very important. So that's why even if I wasn't there yesterday, I was still being loving. Let's make sure. Um. And so love and care is very important. I want to end with a question that came from Mary Brigid and. She says. Who did you show love to today? Is it still early in the morning? There are three people that I was able to show love to this morning. It was my dog. I was able to give my dog a tight squeeze and give my husband a hug this morning. I feel like I am working with that value of loving care in some way. I would say you also showed it to me by getting up early, showing up here, being willing to have this conversation recorded to be shared. That's really very generous of you. Well, thank you Amy. Well, reminding me of that as well. And I love, you know. Yes. You're good friends. I love talking to you about endless things. So it's been lovely, too. As nervous as I was to speak in the past, I'm really glad to be doing this and sharing, you know, all the different things that we, we always talk about. Well, I appreciate you being so vulnerable because it's perhaps easy to easier to stand up and and we teach about act, right. There's a system and a formula. And we know the messages we want to convey. We have a sense of how it is transmitted through us. We understand that. But there's this aspect of being a therapist where it's often not revealed who we are. To the people we're working with. And in feminist psychology, we value community, and we figure out how to navigate any kind of dual relationships that show up, that working with women can't be so rigid and structured as the old Freudian way of the blank slate. And from all the women psychologists, Carol Gilligan, all the way through, we learned that this is good for everybody to to be available and be a human being. And, you know, our clients don't necessarily know details of our lives, but they can come to know us in a meaningful, value based kind of way. And so I really, really appreciate that you were able to show up here and do that. It's, I think, deeply needed in the field of psychology that we can be human. Yes. Thank you for naming that. Especially now when mental health, uh, you know, providers are just feeling very burnt out and not wanting or not wanting to go into mental health. I think it's important that we are seeing that we that we can be there, and it's important for us that we're just human. I think a lot of the the role of a healer throughout time in cultures and societies, and it can feel like a unusual place that's in community and also supporting community. And the the role of the healer is so essential, and we can all step into that role as we move through the world. We don't have to have the label of therapists to do that. I think he is acting like a would. Then, uh, you know, then psychologists social work know doctor. Massage therapist. Well, I don't have any of those words. I think he knows the best word of them all. Yeah. And I think as art therapists, there's the the role of the artist in society. And art therapy combines the healer and artist role. And you and I made a lot of art together. And we've stopped on a walk in the park and made a little nature about the dirt with sticks and leaves and flowers and, and we brought decorations to put on this community tree that was, you know, hanging little ornaments. And the idea of creating, I think, is just so powerfully healing. There's always opportunity to look with a creative eye at our thoughts, at what we're seeing in the world. And then to put out something creative is the full circle experience of it. And it's been so fun to make our way to. Thing. I love it. I'm gonna. My goal is to go back to it and be of service to myself. Nice. Well, I look forward to seeing that. Uh, flower wreath you're working on. Uh, well, thank you already. I want to extend my extreme gratitude for all of your time today. And I think the people listening can really see themselves in you and and your ability to be non-judgmental of yourself and be curious of yourself is such a great living role model of how we can all move towards just accepting what's happening in the moment, being who we want to be, moving towards our values. Thank you Doctor Backos for having me. It was a very it was a wonderful company. As always, thank you.