117. Feasting with Your Eyes: Interview with Bebe Black Carminito

BEBE BLACK CARMINITO is a food stylist, recipe developer, content creator, cooking teacher and professional makeup artist. Her debut cookbook, The Curated Board: Inspired Platters & Spreads for Any Occasion, was published in September, 2024. 

Bebe co-hosts three global cookbook clubs. Her early forays into cookbook contribution include The California Date Cookbook, as well as styling for Faith Kramer’s celebrated 52 Shabbats. Bebe attended the San Francisco Cooking School and started her culinary career at A16, an acclaimed restaurant in San Francisco. She resides in San Francisco in her teeny-tiny apartment with her husband and best friend, David Carminito.

Bebe's Instagram

Buy Bebe's book!

The Finery

Transcript

117. Bebe interview final August 2025 

We feast first with the eyes. This is a quote from Bebe Black Carminito, and she is talking about how we savor the aesthetic experience of food before we eat. Our first spot of enjoyment is looking at what we're eating. You are in for a real treat today because Bebe has joined us here on the Modern Creative Woman podcast, so that you can hear all about the aesthetics of food and start to change the way you think about what you're eating and make it a fully aesthetic experience. Bebe Black Carminito is a food stylist and a recipe developer. She creates gorgeous content on Instagram. She's also a cooking teacher and has a long career as a professional makeup artist. She has a new cookbook out called The Curated Board inspired platters and Spreads for any occasion. And I met her recently at this incredible space in San Francisco called The Finery. And I knew immediately that I wanted to introduce her to you. She hosts three global cookbook clubs, and she's contributed far and wide to the culinary scene. And if you are a home chef, you know Bebe. She went to the San Francisco cooking school and started her culinary career at age 16, which is an acclaimed restaurant in San Francisco. She lives in the city, and she describes it as living in a teeny, tiny apartment with her husband and best friend, David. And he comes up again in this interview. And when I met him, he really is a delight. So let's get into this. Let's get this started. 

Bebe, I am so happy that you are joining us today on the Modern Creative Woman podcast and what you are doing for aesthetics and food is incredible. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I've been looking forward to this. This is so great. And as a food stylist and a previous makeup artist. What you see is so interesting to me. So maybe we can just talk about where we met, and then we will jump into what's happening in your world of aesthetics. I saw you speak about your book at the winery in San Francisco, and it's an incredible place for community. They do such a good job inviting women in to connect with one another and really appreciate what they have to offer and what one another brings to the community. So how did you end up talking at The Finery? And then we're going to jump back to how all this began. Well, actually, about a year ago, I attended my very first event at the winery with a friend, and it was the Galentine's Day celebration. And I just fell in love with what Jen was doing there. I love the community she was building, and I don't know, I kind of thought this would be a really great place to have my book sign a book signing event. And I talked to her and we kind of talked about it. And that was last February, and my book hadn't come out yet. It came out in September of 24, and we slowly put it, started talking and putting it together, and it just turned out to be an extraordinary evening of women and delicious food and building a great community again. And it was just a really exciting experience for all of us. So yeah, and that's where I met you. Yay! I think what's so amazing is how we. Put ourselves in environments and find the people that we want to connect with. And so that's why I ask in particular about the finery. And I'll link the finery in the show notes so people can find her and her work. So you began, let's go all the way back to makeup and styling people. Well, I love beauty. I've always been a fan of beauty products and aesthetics, and I kind of I did make a for several years. I did theater makeup, I did bridal makeup, I did regular makeup and retail. I was a trainer for a couple of different brands, and I really loved beauty, and I love that the fact that I now can marry beauty to food in a different way, and I just kind of got to the point where I was ready for a change, and I started working in research. I always wanted to be in the food industry. Martha Stewart kind of paved the way back. Back in the day, I thought one of these days I wanted to be in the food industry. And so during my makeup career, I kept, you know, kept up on food trends and reading magazines. And then it just came to the point where I was ready for a change and wanted to build a career in food. And so I started working in restaurant thinking that's what I needed to do. I thought, oh well, if I want a career in food, I have to work in a restaurant, which is very true. I think everybody at one point should get restaurant experience, because it gives you a greater appreciation for what goes on behind the scenes and everything. But I wanted to be creative in this in the sense that I had more autonomy, and that's kind of how I started food styling. And I did cold. I did cold calling. I think with people, I thought if you ever needed an extra pair of hands, if you just need somebody to be a gofer or just, you know, to gather props, just whatever it is. And I connected with somebody named Molly Kudrow and she's a famous photographer who she's incredible, but her work is beautiful. And I just assisted her a few times. And I fell in love with the art of food photography and food styling. That's really how that all began. And that was probably in 2016, 2017. That was several years ago, and then I kept working in restaurants. I worked at age 16. I worked at Marla Bakery, I worked at 20th Century Cafe, and then I just thought, I want to be a food stylist. That's what I need to do. That's, I thought, whatever it takes to make that happen, I'm going to do that. So that's kind of what happened with my my trajectory into food styling. How did you take the leap into knowing you wanted to do that and then taking the leap, like, what allowed you to make that big pivot? My husband basically encouraged me. He said, honey, if this makes you happy, then this needs to be your future. You need to figure out how to make it work. And again, then the pandemic happened and I did everything from home. I started doing recipe development for different brands and then shooting the photos just with my iPhone. And I again just fell in love with the art of aesthetics and food and beauty and married all of those things together. So that's kind of how it started. I just had a very supportive husband that helped me pave the way to that career. Well, when I met you, I met your husband and he was wearing a jacket that said Phoebe's husband. Yes. He was. Where's that free event? He works with me. He comes and helps me. Um, it's really funny because I was before my book came out, I was like, having a moment, like, okay, this is a big thing. This is going to happen. It's going to change my life. And I was kind of just having a moment to myself. And he comes out of the other room and he had on the shirt, and he modeled it for me for the first time. And it just I knew everything was going to work out when I saw him in that shirt, just knowing that he was going to be there with me through it, you know, and he took the time to order the shirt, get the shirt made especially, you know, I know he designed it. He picked the colors and the whole thing. And it just really set my soul afire. And I just got really excited about the next year of my life. Wow. It really speaks to the importance of surrounding ourselves with people who believe in us. And I think so many women get stuck where they're surrounded by people that they've been with for a very long time. So the same friend group or the the same work situation and. They maybe don't notice if someone is pushing or supporting them, or when they come across someone who's pushing and supporting them. It feels scary or it feels really good. Mhm. That's how you're asking. So good, so good. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. No I totally ditto your sentiments on that. I think supporting friends and loved ones is very, very important to the success of an individual. Yes. And I think sometimes we forget when we support other people what it does to the world. Right. Well, your husband supports you, which supports the book, which supported all those people in that room and all the places you've been on your book tour, but all the people that are impacted by his generosity to you? It really is incredible. No thank you. Thank you for saying that and pointing that out. Um, you know, I am so grateful for his support. I could tell and I could tell how much he loves you when I saw him. He does. And vice versa. Yeah. Each other in every capacity of our lives. So thank you for saying that. Yeah. Do you have a comment for me about what you said? We first start feasting with our eyes right when we're looking at food. And I'll tell you my response to that, but I want to hear your explanation of feasting with our eyes when you see food laid out a specific way, and you know that the person that prepared it just took the time to make it look beautiful and inviting. You faced with your eyes first. And you think that looks delicious. That looks vibrant. I want to partake. And that was one of my kind of my key elements. Every time that we shot for the book, I thought, we want to we want this to look appetizing. We want it to look punchy, vibrant, fresh. And that's kind of the aesthetic that we we shot with. We wanted it to be really. Vivid and colorful and it to look like it's a convivial scene, um, where people could enjoy. And I think that when we feast with our eyes first, it just means that, you know, that the person that prepared it lovingly created it for you to enjoy it. And I think it's those little touches that just make it all the more special. I absolutely agree, and I'm such a visual person, and I thought it was sort of me, I'm a visual person, actually. It's all of us. You know, 60% brain is interacting with our occipital lobe. So we have some of our brain activated through sight. It's why we can have a nice rest by just closing our eyes for a few minutes. It really relaxes our brain. But when we open our eyes to have something visually stimulating is incredible. There's also been research to show if people are putting art in different neighborhoods, the crime will go down. And so murals and aesthetics and parks in different neighborhoods. How people enjoy their communities more so. Of course, looking at food as an object of beauty, it makes so much sense what you say. Thank you. And maybe if you're cooking for yourself, if you're your husband or wife or partner. Is that what you take the time to create a meal that's pleasing to you to look at just because you don't have to slop it on a paper plate? You know, use the fine China, use the good pottery. Put a flower, an edible flower on your salad. I mean, those little things. Use the good Chinese silverware. You know, it's romancing the every day, making those little moments for yourself really, really elevated. And, um, even if David's not here, I try to remember that. I mean, sometimes I'm busy working and have a deadline that sometimes doesn't always happen to me, to be completely honest. But more often than not, I like to have pretty food just for myself. It's something my mom always talked about when I got my degree in art therapy, she bought me a set of flatware that's shaped like twigs, and it's all so beautiful and we use it every day. It's something that really matters to me around aesthetics and it it really helps us enjoy. There is zero reason to say the good stuff. I agree with you. Yes, I agree completely. Um, on that. You know, put a little vase of fresh flowers on your table, even if it's just a sandwich. Lunch. You know, just take those little moments and make them really magical romance that every moment. Romance every day, you know, you. Mindfulness. Yeah. But the the idea of pausing and being aware is so essential. It's a huge part of the work that I do in acceptance and commitment therapy. It's what I'm striving for constantly is to be in the present. And all the research shows we suffer less when we're in the present than when we're dreaming or ruminating about something we don't like, but even just being caught up in thoughts while we're doing something else, we enjoy it less. So when you talk about light a candle, put a flower. It takes so little time. Why not enjoy it? And it's a critical component for people, um, experiencing their world in a different way is to just make contact. I love that mindfulness. Don't just walk down something, you know, like think about. I like to think about where the provenance of the food, like where it came from. I like to think about those things. Like where was this corn harvested? You know, all those little things. Where was this lettuce grown? Like, who are the farmers? I try to think of that in a mindful way. And then when I connect with my food, I just enjoy it even better. You know, take a take a beat, you know, think about those little things. Um, I think a lot of times people eat so fast that they don't enjoy it as much. And food is a source of enjoyment. It should be. I mean, it should be celebrated. And so I really feel that just taking a few moments to enjoy a good meal or a snack or appetizers or whatever, you know, just connect. mindfully. Mindfully. Yeah. I grew up with an acre garden. And so I also like to think about where things came from. And my favorite thing that my dad and my grandfather grew was strawberries. And it's still my favorite food. And when I'm going to any kind of cultural potluck, I used to host those for students at the university. Just bring in some childhood food that you would want to share. Could be something that you loved or you didn't really love, but it feels like it played prominently. I always brought in strawberries and I would cut the tops off and someone said, oh, you even cut the top off. You, like, took care of us. And it really got me thinking about that food memory of picking the strawberries. My dad would make strawberry jam. He would freeze some with sugar for the winter, but he would also freeze some without sugar, because that's what I wanted. They they kind of kept their shape better. The aesthetics. Right? Right. Yeah. Right. But you you talked about food culture and and food history and food memory. So I guess I'm bringing all of that into this. Like my memory of strawberries every time I eat a strawberry. It's so pleasurable to think about the strawberries I ate as a kid. Mhm. Mhm. Yeah I know I think about my mom's enchiladas. Well I'm from New Mexico where chili is celebrated. It's our greatest crop as a resource. And it played a prominent role in in my cooking for David and I. I love spice, I love heat and food. But when I think of my childhood, I think of my mom cooking her enchiladas with her, her wine cooler and her bandana on her head and just cooking her enchiladas. You know, she really got into it, and I love that memory of her. But what's really interesting is that she let me help her cook like she was cooking or making a stew or soup or something. You know, I'd want to go in and stir it and she'd say, no, no, honey, I just that was her time. That was her. Her Zen, you know. But if she was baking something, she'd call me in to help her. If we're making cookies for my classroom or my Valentine's Day party at school, or a birthday cake, or, like, something sweet, I'd always be her little assistant. And I'd go and I'd help her, you know, bake the cookies or whatnot. But it was those memories of baking with her or just some of my fondest memories as a child. And so I can still taste some of those foods, like we made chocolate cupcakes a lot, and she loved cinnamon. So we put cinnamon in the chocolate cupcake. And I just remember chocolate and cinnamon, those baking, those warming spices. You know, I think of that as a kid who's a memory. Memory is like every time I have enchiladas, I think of my mom, you know, of course I'm going to compare them. But they. That was like her. Her thing. Like her and her green chili stew. Those two things were just like, nobody can make them like that, you know? But those food memories, really tiny to my past. And it's a link. You know, people have those memories, and it's a link to the past. Remember. It's true. My grandmother and my mom made a great effort to teach my brother and me to cook and make bread. And my grandmother was a little superstitious. She would only allow you to stir the gravy one direction. You were not allowed to turn the whisk the other way. Do you have any? I don't know why. Do you have any food superstitions? No, I'm trying to think. No, I don't think of a superstition. But I would ask my mom for recipes and she'd say, oh, you take an eyelash of this, you take a pinch of that, you take this. She never, like, wrote. I would give anything to have some. I have maybe like 2 or 3 of her recipes that I from childhood. But the good ones, like I give anything to have some of those recipes. So I'm going really by when I cook at home, I'm going by taste memory pretty much. Um, but yeah, I she just liked me to help her bake. I was her little bakery assistant. I think she she just thought that anybody else cooking, that was like, that was her space. That was her time to have her wine and just to relax. Um. And I give her that. I think that I know how it is when I'm in my kitchen. Granite. It's 70ft². It's tiny, but I'm a hog in the kitchen, you know, like I want my space. It's like my. It's like my office kind of thing, but, um. But lately I've been letting. Letting. David's been helping me cook breakfast on the weekend, and it's been really cool. He gets to pick the dish he makes. And, um, so the week is I kind of like. It's really hard to not get in there, though. You know, I want to I want to help him. And he's like, no, I got this because that's how I am, like 99.9% of the time I thought this, I don't, you know, it's like my office kind of thing. So you look like your mom then. That's true, I do. I look like my mom, I got her. You're right. I never thought of it. That one. Yeah. When we talked before, we mentioned an entry point to culture is food that we often learn about another culture first through it's food. It's a way to connect and make bridges to other communities. And what you've done in your book, I think, says a lot about who you are as a person who likes to bridge across communities and living in San Francisco. It's a global community. There's people from around the world. How do you it is it's such a great example of a world culture. How do you see food as that entry point for you and for others in San Francisco? I just really think that it's important to share your gastronomic heritage with others. I think for me, being a food person, I just it just kind of comes with the territory. We all want to know about each other's culture, food, culture. Um, and so I think that it just really builds interest and excitement to like, learn about somebody else's childhood favorite food, you know? Um, but in my book, you're right. I did work with seven contributors that all spoke to their gastronomic heritage, and I really wanted that. That was a very important point for me when I was writing the proposal that I could share those, um, cross-culturally. And I really wanted them to be globally diverse so that people could pick it up. And it's not just a cheese and salami book. It's really, you know, there. I mean, that's great if there if it is too. I mean, I love those books as well, but this is from breakfast to dessert. You have menus that are globally themed, and I want people to use as kind of as an educational tool about how to try different foods if there's something you haven't tried before. It's a really great way to start, you know, learning more about another culture through food. And like the the title, the curated board inspired platters and spreads for every occasion, it is it's basically it is for any occasion. Um, it's for you can do one of these menus for a birthday party, a bridal shower, a girls night. You pick it. You know, it's got a lot of different options. What we talked about before, when I met you, really struck me as cultural humility and the idea that in any position we occupy, we can understand that what we see and our culture is not the right way or the only way. And you've demonstrated in the book this cultural humility about giving credit to other cultures and giving authorship to some of these recipes, to people who are really the experts on those recipes. And so I just want to give you so much credit for that. It requires a level of humility that's not about making ourselves small. It's about making our vision really big. And I think you did such a good job with that in the book. Well thank you. Yeah, I didn't want. I mean, I have a lot of recipes in here, but I, I wanted Christine Gallery to write the recipes for a dim sum menu. I wanted Anisha to write a menu about Indian food. And, you know, on down the line, I wanted each person to speak to their gastronomic heritage. That wasn't for me to do that. And I, you know, certainly wanted their moment to shine. I wanted to give them autonomy in talking about their memories. Like, for instance, Amisha, um, mother in law taught her a hack to make samosas using tortillas. And I just think that is the coolest thing. And I wanted that to be part of the story. And when I read a cookbook, I read, I read all those little things I read. I want to know the provenance of the recipe. I want to know where it came from. And so I really wanted to. It's genius. And I think, you know, the bagels and lox page is so gorgeous. The the recipes from Mika Zima and how the the history is played out on that board is just it. You can feel it in the image and in what you wrote. Thank you. Yeah, that was important for me. I really wanted to give give her that. The pescatarian Hall of bagel brunch. But it's a lot today. Um, yeah. I really wanted people to see that. You know how she learned cooking? And she. She's a nutritionist, and I just really wanted each person that contributed a recipe. When you create your boards and your recipes, how do you document it? I'm sort of imagining you there with your phone documenting visually. Do you write down your recipes? Are you like your mother and you just cook them? What what's your personal process? Well, that's a great question. So if I am using a recipe, say for a project or it's for a brand, I use these old school composition notebooks and I just write everything down. I use my scale, I weigh everything out. I put the measurement and the and the weight and then I try. I test it 2 or 3 times before I vet it or I scrap it, but it's not good, and that's how I do it. And then once it's vetted and I've got it down, then I'll put it into my iPad, on my note field and the note field. But it's very old school. It's not like I don't use apps to create recipes. I just write it down. Chicken scratch pretty much. Sometimes I can't read my writing if I do it really fast, or if water gets on my notebook and it smears the ink. That's the worst thing, because I love these pens, these flare pens, which water doesn't like. Um, so that's basically it's old school. It's nothing technical at all. I'm not tech savvy, so I don't I use old remedies for writing recipes. Just old school chicken scratch. Really, it's better for your brain. It's really better for you to write. We learn more. We encode better when we use a pen and paper instead of typing. I often make my writing. I love writing, I love the first thing I do in the morning is I have my coffee and I spend 30 minutes writing. Um, whether it's like a scripture, I write down a scripture or five things that bring me joy. Five things that I'm grateful for. I spend 30 to 45 minutes writing in the morning, and I love to write. So I think that's kind of how I write my recipes like that. And I'm not, again, not technical, so I just like pen and paper. Um, and then I'll take a picture of it. Just my iPhone just not styled, just, you know, to kind of document. Well, I write every morning too. I think it's how to start the day. Well, is to be in reflection. Absolutely. What do you drink in the morning when you coffee? My husband makes. He has a science. He has a very specific science to coffee. So he brings me my coffee every morning. If he's not working. But I drink coffee with coffee, mate. But it's probably the last thing you'd expect from somebody that. I mean, it's not healthy. It's not. Gourmet, but it's what I like. And, um, that's what I have every morning. I'm a coffee person, and I have about 1 to 1 and a half cups every morning, and then I drink water the rest of the day. Is it a special coffee pot or a special coffee? We love Phil's coffee house. Oh, yeah. No, we use Starbucks Italian roast and old school. It's a compressor machine. We got it at Bob, I think. Or Williams-Sonoma. I don't remember, but it's not a fancy coffee pot. It's old school. And I drink. It's the big East Fork pottery mug every morning. I think the idea of ritual is really important, that we have these rituals that nourish us, you know, literally with food nourishing, visually nourishing eyes as you've described, feasting with our eyes and the ritual of coffee and writing. I wonder about your decision to write a book and just kind of what that process was like from, I'm going to write a book to now I have a publisher. How did that come about? She's got a great question. So basically what happened is every Friday night, David and I would go out to dinner and we would try a new restaurant, or we would go somewhere in our neighborhood, or we'd walk there and it was our rich inner ritual. Every Friday night we'd go to dinner. And, um, if he wasn't working at his. And then the pandemic hit and I thought, well, I still want to keep the Friday night ritual because it's a great way to jumpstart the weekend, and we look forward to it every week. And once the pandemic happened, we couldn't go to restaurants anymore because everything was either closed or is just remember that you remember what that was like. And so I thought, well, I still want to keep the memory. I mean, I want someone who keeps the theme alive, Live like Friday night. Date night. So I started building cheese and charcuterie boards on Friday. And we called it Nibble Board Friday. It was like our Friday night. I'd make a coffee, you'd make cocktails, we'd sit around the table, put music on, and we would have, like a little date night in our apartment. And then after 4 to 5 weeks of doing the same exact cheese and charcuterie board, I thought, how can I make this thematic? How can I change it up? How can I make it more exciting? And I started doing thematic boards like a parole board or an a pair of TiVo board or an Italian board. Like I just, you know, culturally infused some creativity into it. And I was posting these on Instagram and then I had an agent reach out, Leslie Jonah, and she said, hey, I think you might have a book here. You want to talk? And that led to writing the proposal, which and which led to publishing a book. That's basically how it happened. And it I never thought I was going to write a book that's just kind of like it just happened. It was really cool. Um, and she guided me every step of the way and. Yeah. How the book came into fruition. It's how I began writing as well. Someone. Wow. A couple of things. I worked with one publisher, but someone from my current publishing company found me presenting. And I think the the commonality is if you're doing a thing you love, people will see and they'll pick up. Might be your energy, your enthusiasm for it, and want to talk with you and have conversations about it. And platforms emerge when you're on the right path, I think. I think you're right. And I think if you're loving what you're doing, it's infectious. People will see that. And I think activity breeds activity. And the more that you do something and that you're prolific at something that you love, I think it's just it just happened. I think you just have to be passionate. Um, but that's how it happened. So there's something to be said for your consistency in that process that every Friday night board seeking variety in what you were going to prepare. But consistency in Friday night, date night, we made it a point to really have that as a ritual. It was our way of connecting, our way of kind of escaping what was happening at the time and just a celebratory evening every week. And so Thursday, I would probably start thinking about what I was going to make on Friday, and I might try a recipe, or test a recipe, or look in a cookbook for inspiration and try a new cracker, or a dip or a cocktail, whatever it was. And I just really got into that. I thought, I'm going to start writing all this down. And that's kind of. So when Leslie approached me with the proposal idea and the book idea, I already had some of the recipes that I just did for fun, like to kind of keep my mind creative. And so I had something to submit in the proposal, and it was just a good way to to stay above all of it, you know, and not the events, all the chaos that was surrounding us. Um, it was my little light spot. So I'd get really excited about a new ingredient or a new spice or a new, you know, recipe that I was trying. And that was kind of the gateway to getting the book published. I think your consistency is very inspiring to to do a thing once a week. And it was about community with your husband, and it has expanded to community with people around the world. Yeah. You've been very busy with the book tour. How did that come about? I knew when I wrote the book that I was I wanted to have I wanted to go to the East Coast, which we did. We went to Seattle, and I love meeting people in different parts of the country. And it was a really good way for me to, you know, to celebrate what I love. And we're still doing events, actually. You know, it'll be a year in September, but we have a bad schedule pretty much through the holiday season. Um, so I'm really excited about the next couple, four months here. What's your next event? It's actually this next weekend at Emily Schubert on Friday. No. I'm sorry. On Saturday and Sunday, we're doing an event in San Francisco on Saturday from 2 to 4. And at their Woodside location on Sunday from 2 to 4. So that's our next event. So we just finished an event last weekend at Pepper Jack provisions, right? Literally in our neighborhood in the sunset. And it was a really fun night. I made a board and we met some other female women owned businesses, and it was a really good turnout and it was a really fun night. How did you go about setting up the book tour? Did you have someone help you with that? Did you look at places where you wanted to go? What was that process? I did, I worked in Amazing Pueblo. Her name is Andrea Burnett and she was actually referred from Leslie, my agent, and she helped me line up pretty much most of the tour. And we would do calls, zoom calls and plan the events and whatnot. And then. Yeah, so she was instrumental in getting a lot of those bookings. Nice. Did you at any point? Face imposter syndrome. They all. Would you share a little bit about that? Because the more we share our own experience and how we relate to those thoughts, I think people really benefit from it. I think so many writers and creatives go through imposter syndrome. I think it's just par for the course. And I wasn't a writer. I, I was worried about that. I'm creative, but I'm not a writer. Um, I'm still learning how to be a good writer. So I give all my credit, all the credit to Ken Laidlaw, my editor, who helped me say everything succinctly and to the point and keep the recipes dialed in because my head notes were like three paragraphs long. Some of them I really wanted to tell the back story. And she's like, you don't need to feel that. She kept it very, you know, very to the point and but still very meaningful. And help me share my my narrative in a beautiful way. And she her voice. You can I mean, it is my book, but it's without her, I would not have been able to do this. Um, I give my team all the credit for this because we are a team and it's collaborative, and it's something that I couldn't have done alone. But I kept thinking, I'm not a writer, how am I going to do this? But if you keep looking at all the things that you're not, you're never going to get anything done. I mean, you're not. You have to say, you know what? I'm creative. I have an amazing editor, Kim. I love my editor. I know the two of us can say what to say here. Like, for instance, for instance, one time I put jalapeno cream cheese, but I didn't put it in the recipe like we were to put it in the recipe like it was an ingredient list on the ingredient list. But it wasn't in the recipe. And she's like, Bebe, you don't. You're not telling people where to put the cream cheese and things like that. It's like, I was so excited about the flavor of the of the dish, that I was not putting one of the most important steps in the recipe. And so she just helped me say everything, you know. I love my editor, Darcy. She's. I've been with her for 17 years. Maybe. I think you know the. The way you're talking it. I'm noticing a theme from the people that I've interviewed is so much gratitude and appreciation for the team, for the people that are helping. How is it that, you know, I don't know how to do that or understand that your role in the team is one piece of it? How do you hold that? I just know how I like to be treated. You know, when I'm working on a project, I. I think that you treat people how you want to be treated. I think that it's a well oiled machine and not it's. You're not an island. It's part of something bigger. It's community. And everybody that worked on this book, my designer, I mean, my publisher, my publicist, my web designer, my agent, my assistants on set, David, my husband. I mean, everybody just hope I'm not forgetting anybody but every other contributors that put their blood, sweat and tears into this book, too. I mean, it's for everyone. This is for everybody. And, um, I just I just know how it feels when somebody says, good job. Thank you for helping me. To me. So I want to in kind. Turn that around to others I want. I think that's a huge piece of being creative is to give credit to others. I love that. How do you balance promoting the book and you with the imposter syndrome? How do you how do you set forth? You do it in a very humble way, but how do you speak about it when the imposter syndrome is getting loud? I just try to shut it down, honestly. But it it can be. It can be pretty crippling. It can. It can really hurt you if you let it. And you have to get in front of it and you have to recognize it and say, you know what? I'm not a writer. I'm not a scholar. I'm creative. So focus on what you're good at and let the rest happen. You know, I just know that I want to get something done, so I'm going to get it done. That's bottom line. And yeah, you just have to you have to keep your your eyes open and just recognize the little signs. That little voice in your head. You have to know where to say, you know. But it's very common. It's very common. And I felt a little better once I did some research and like, realized I'm not the only person that has this. It's a thing. So it is. It originally was a study and Harvard by a couple of women researching women at Harvard, and there were so few women in Harvard, and they they thought it was like this high achieving women's problem. Because that's who they were interviewing, and they described it in this way. And then they did due diligence and began researching further. And they realized pretty much everyone has an inner dialogue that is critical. And sometimes it shows up when we project our worries onto someone else. That's what I do in my writing. What is this person going to say? Like, I imagine they would be very critical. So our mind is very clever in trying to make us compare, make us be critical. And the way you just described getting ahead of it, I think, is such a lovely description. I talked to my students about the idea of just taking your ego out of it. You're not your writing, you're doing. This doesn't have to be who you are, right? So I guess balancing it, it's just knowing that how much I love doing events, how much I love what we created. I say we because again, it's a team that this is probably one of my greatest achievements. Besides getting married to a man who loves me and supports me. We have a great marriage and we're very happy and they go hand in hand, you know? But. Yeah. I mean, you have to get in front of it and shut it down. I mean, I'm not being like, technical with this, but I just think you have to believe in yourself. Yeah. And provide lots of self care during the process. Take care of yourself. Go to bed early. You know, don't drink that extra glass of wine or don't drink at all. Or it really healthy. Go on your walk. Be in nature. Write in your journal. Like all these things really gotten me through all of this. Those are essential components in your business plan. Yes. Yes, absolutely. I agree, there's a lot that we can do to eliminate and sleep, of course, and not drinking. The if I think of two things that I've done to help my writing and my life in general, is to get nine hours of sleep and I quit drinking. I quit drinking in the pandemic, I was just taking a month off when the pandemic started, and so there's nowhere to go, nothing to do. And that was the end of that. And I'm really grateful for the extra time and energy that's given me. And to sleep one more hour. So much more time is available during the day to me that I'm not losing. Yeah, no sleep is crucial. I agree. Um, yeah. The not drinking has been really helpful for me too. In fact, January 1st, I think I might have had my last glass of wine, and then I might have had a few sips here and there. But I haven't had a glass since then. Um, yeah, it's been really great. And David quit drinking because he was. He hiked Half Dome recently, and so in January he started training for that. So that was a huge part of training for Half Dome, was not having alcohol and I didn't want to drink alone. Certainly that's not fun. And um. Yeah. And then one night, I'll have to be honest with you, I poured myself a glass of wine and I took a sip, and I'm like, this doesn't taste as good as I thought I was going to taste. And I didn't miss it as much as I thought I would. Um, so, um, recently I've recently been really experimenting with Na beverages or making non-alcoholic cocktails at home. For when I go to a join. If they have a non-alcoholic menu, I will try something. And that's what I really like now is that if you want to have a drink, if you're within a social setting and you don't want to just have water now, there's more options, you know? So I think that's really great. When a restaurant and a. Maybe later you can share with me some of your mocktail recipes. I agree with you 100%. And I think that all of the things you're talking about, the mindfulness with food, the aesthetics is more available when people are not drinking. And one of the core pillars in the modern creative woman is values. And health is my number one value, because without it, I'm unable to take care of all the other things that are important to me. And I found that helps with that. Food noise aesthetics helps with feeling calm and admiring and appreciating beauty. You've talked a lot about the importance of self-care, and food is an essential component of that. Mhm. Absolutely. And we've been eating healthier since this the, you know, since the new year started. But um. All these things you take for granted. You know you can't do that anymore. You want to take care of yourself. You're an instrument you need to take care of. You need to tune yourself and just think in a healthier, healthier way. Yeah. When I was in college, I had two sociology professors who were young and doing all this really interesting research. And they were so excited to teach. And they both in separate classes, talked about not drinking because it's just an opiate. It slows us down. It dulls us. And the idea of what you've been talking about, being mindful of what you're eating, being loving about what's on the plate, you know, attending to it, being present. I think you're really on to something that's deeply, mentally healing, deeply emotionally healing for people. It's really exciting what you've put together. Thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah, it's been imperative. Extra sleep. You know, all of that stuff. It's really gotten me to a better place. Where can we find your book in San Francisco or online? The curated board. Where can we find it? Several places. Um, omnivore books has my book. It's in a lot of independent bookstores. Green Apple Books has it book passages. All of the San Francisco bookstores have it. You can get it online. But probably also the best place is just to go to my Linktree on my on my Instagram. And there's options omnivores on there. And a lot of my bookstores are on there. Um, but it's out there. I'd love to people to get a copy and let me know what they think of it, you know? And, um, yeah, we're doing an event this weekend at Emily's Uber on Saturday and Sunday. So if you're in Woodside or in San Francisco, come by. This is so exciting. Do you, um, have a sense of what's next on your creative journey? You're kind of booked through the end of the year, and will you take a little rest? Will you do something different creatively? How will you kind of wind down from all this book tour work? Well, like you said, there are some events still through the holidays, so I'm still promoting this, this book, and I'm still developing, doing some recipes for different brands here and there. And yeah, I'm just giving it more love. You know, I'm not ready to stop until they tell me we've had enough. But, yeah, I'm just gonna keep myself busy and creative and forward thinking. Um, yeah, that's pretty much what I'm doing now. I've been teaching classes, two cooking classes, which has been another great way to be creative and to hone my skill and craft a civic kitchen. And then I'm going to be having a class at 18 and in November. So just teaching has been really fun to do too. And that's an extension of, you know, writing a book. There's more opportunity with that. So when I first met you, I looked you up on Instagram and I saw so many people that I'm friends with on Instagram follow you also. So. Oh, cool. Yeah. The the idea of community, it's there and an undercurrent even when we don't see it. So now I'm going to make a special point to have a look at the our shared friends and make sure that they get to hear your story. I want to thank you so much for what you've done. There's this piece of how you've done it that is so inspiring to me that aspects of appreciating your community, the support from your husband, from your publisher, the the way that you've connected with people, you had such a great conversation at the finally, I just felt so inspired. There's a way that we can, from whatever we're doing, have this positive impact on community through. You're giving credit to your team. You are sharing what started out as caring for you and your husband. You know, spreading that out. And I think many times women forget that what they do can be of service in the world in a really way. If we're willing to step into it, lean towards what we love and kind of get in front of that imposter syndrome that might be telling us, why is this important? Or who would care? We get in front of it and we realize so many people care. So many people have bought your book and really love it. It's incredible. Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm honored. Really honored to. Well, I'll drop all the links in the show notes and people can find you on Instagram. Will you say your accounts where people can find you? Of course. My Instagram is at champagne and cookies on Instagram. Excellent. Thank you. Thank you. Thank