142. Art Therapy & Cultural Humility: Special Guest Dr. Louvenia Jackson

In this deeply meaningful conversation, I sit down with Dr. Lavinia Jackson — Chair and Professor of Art Therapy at Marymount University, scholar, educator, and one of the most important voices shaping the future of our field.

Dr. Jackson is the author of Cultural Humility and Art Therapy, a book that has profoundly influenced both my teaching and my clinical work. Her leadership has helped move art therapy beyond “cultural competence” and toward something much more human and honest: cultural humility — a way of being grounded in curiosity, critical self-reflection, and respect for the lived expertise of the people we serve.

Together, we talk about the origins of cultural humility, born out of the social unrest following the Rodney King riots, and how this framework asks us to move beyond checklists and techniques into deeper accountability — personally, relationally, and institutionally.

We explore:

• why humility is the foundation of ethical therapy work
• the difference between competence and curiosity
• how relationship — not information — is what truly heals
• the risks of disconnection in our AI and algorithm-driven world
• and how retreat, travel, art-making, and embodied practices help us step back, reflect, and return to ourselves

This episode is both scholarly and soulful — a conversation about integrity, presence, and what it really means to show up for others with openness.

If you care about creativity, healing, justice, and becoming a more thoughtful human and clinician, this one is for you.

Welcome to The Modern Creative Woman — where we explore the art and science of living creatively.

Transcript

 I am delighted to introduce you to Doctor Lavinia Jackson. She is the chair and full professor at the art therapy department at Marymount University in Los Angeles. She got her marriage and family therapy and her PhD from Notre Dame de Namur in art therapy. She's quite decorated and recognized. She got the Outstanding Service Award from Notre Dame. She is the Pearly Robertson Scholarship recipient from the American Art Therapy Association. She's an ascending scholar at Loyola marymount, and the Southern California Art Therapy Association has recognized her for her distinguished service. She has contributed quite broadly in academic writing and at the American Art Therapy Association. Her book that has influenced me tremendously is Cultural Humility and Art therapy, and we'll get into that a little bit. She has been a an amazing advocate for art therapy in our profession, and she's made the idea of cultural humility front and center in our profession. She has made the concepts of cultural humility easy to understand and really accessible to art therapists around the world who are embracing what she brings to the field of art therapy. 

If you're new here, welcome in for the Modern Creative Woman podcast where we are talking about the art and science of creativity. Let's get into this. Let's get this started. 

Thank you so much, Doctor Lavinia Jackson, for joining us on the Modern Creative Woman podcast. It is such a pleasure. Thank you so much for inviting me back again. It's always, always exciting and a privilege to have a conversation with you. I recall meeting you in 2012. Mhm. Yet I had known about you long before that. Oh. Your reputation preceded you through Doctor Doris Arrington. And she was so enamored with you, just like Lavinia. Lavinia. She's going to do it. She's going to do all these things. She's like a shooting star. Just you just do what you have to meet her. You have to meet her. And she was so interested in you. Oh my gosh. Are you starting off the podcast making me cry? Um, I'm sure you may have talked about it, but, you know, we've just recently lost Doris. Um, which was really hard for me. I haven't really spoke about it outside of sharing it with my class. Um, who I just happen to have in front of me when I got the news. Um, and, yes, she. If it had not been for Doris, I would not have walked into art therapy. Like, literally. I walked into her office and I walked out in the world of art therapy. Um, because of her. Um, I had no idea about the field. All I knew as an artist prior that I wanted to use my art as a way of connection and healing and community, and I wasn't able to do that in the fine art world. And, um, was seeking something and just googled art and therapy. The two words just googled the words, um, hoping that I would. Find something and it popped up that it was a career and I was like, wow, what is this? You know, like, where have I been? Like, where's where did this come from? And, um, and the first thing that actually popped up was Notre Dame de Nemours program. And so I was like, what? And there's a school like right down the street from my house, like, how did I not know this? Um, and so I called and I got doors and doors said, do you want to come in? Um, and and I said, yes, you know, and I'm thinking I was coming more to, to convince that I was an appropriate candidate. But right away, doors, like, made me feel important. She made me feel like you are needed in this field, and I. She may have even said those words. Um. And I was like, what? You know, like, we just had. This woman doesn't know me, you know? Um, but it was something she saw in me, and, um, I. And she told me what I do remember in that first meeting with her. She said, I guess because I asked about, of course, salary, you know, like, can I make a living off of this job, you know? Um, right. And she told me, I guarantee you, before you leave this program, you will have a job. And I was like, what? Um, and she was absolutely right. Before I even graduated, I had, um, a full time position in the East Bay and other opportunities should I had wanted them. Um, and, yes, I, I owe Doris so much. You know, she's very much in my heart, um, because of what she saw and what she cultivated. Andi she didn't just see it, but she saw it and made sure that it was that it was nurtured. Right. Doris started the graduate art therapy psychology program at Notre Dame. She was taking a class with Sister Rosanne, and this was a class assignment that she wanted to create an art therapy program. And she, I think, influenced so many people and she knew how to pick them. There is this quality of you that people really want to be around. People really appreciate who you are and what you say and just your vibe in the room. And I would say for myself, you are so clear in your presence. There's no frenetic, frantic energy that I often just come across. You know, in academia you are so calm and such a pleasure to be around always. And I have a million things to say about all that you've done. But who you are as a person is. Just so delightful. I always love spending time with you. Oh, thank you so much for saying those words. And I would reciprocate that with you. Um, of course, in a different way. Um, you've always been that critical reflection and that thoughtful presence, um, in the room, and I when we met. Um, I noticed that right away, you know, because it was a different program, different leadership. And I had been with the program, you know, up until that point, like ten, you know, plus years. And I thought, who is this person, you know? But immediately when I sat with you, I knew there was this, this integrity that just came across so clear. Um, and I was like, oh, the program is going to be in good hands like this. This was a good pick. They got lucky. Well, thank you for your kind words. I remember the moment I met you. I don't always remember the moment I meet people. You really stick out for just your calm demeanor in what could have been a stressful situation. You just stressed. I wonder if we could talk about cultural humility in art therapy. And that's your 2020 book. I still assign it to my doctoral students, and I recommend it to all the art therapists that I work with and supervise. It is so clear and well laid out. It's understandable in a way that I think art therapy needed. How? I wonder if you could just talk a little bit about the term cultural humility and Mary Garcia and Revlon and where that came from, because that's a really important context, the time in which they emerged with these ideas. And then I know you worked with tourbillon a little bit, and this book is such an important contribution. So I wonder if you could just lay out some of the historical aspects of when their theories emerged. Yeah. Um, I met Doctor Trevor Allen at a training, um, when I worked for the county of San Mateo, and I was enamored by her immediately. Um, she captivated me in a way that I have yet to really come across, meeting someone and feeling that kind of excitement and, um, and motivation. And she was talking about cultural humility and, um, actually like implemented it in the discussion and in the issues that we were having at that point in time. Um, and used it like in vivo, you know. Um, and I was like, flabbergasted. Like what? Like she got us in motion, got us in working groups, had us thinking about critically, reflecting what we wanted, how we were going to move forward as a community. Like, it was amazing. Um, and from that point forward, all I wanted to do was consume cultural humility. I just wanted to know more and more about her. And, um, and thankfully, she was contracted with the county, so she was coming back, um, frequently doing trainings and workshops, and, um, I finally got a chance when she started doing, um, training the trainer um, series that I was able to participate in that and be trained as a cultural humility trainer. Um, which was such a, like a privilege. Um, so in that training, I learned a lot about where it came from. Um, through her words. Um, and together with doctor Jan Murray Garcia, um, doctor Melanie Allen, um, they developed this model after being, um, um, I never remember what the term of this for doctors when they intern. Um, are their residency residencies. They were doing their residency. At, uh, at Oakland Children's Hospital here in the Bay area. And it was during the time of the Rodney King riots. Um, and, you know, again, I always tell people, if you're not familiar with this, please do your historical duty and research it. Um, but it was a videotaping of a black man being beaten by a gang of police officers. Um, and it wasn't the first time it had occurred in our history. You know, it has been occurring since the creation of America. Um, but it was the first time that we saw it on camera. And, um, so it really ignited the community and made people aware of their, their rights and their, um, their entitlement to dignity and, um, going into the hospital, they were recognizing they weren't being treated as such. Um, that there were people who looked different than the black and brown people of the community who were getting serviced better than they were. And, um, and so she. Doctor Trevelyan describes it as just a day when things kind of just came to a head in the, um, in the lobby in the, in the and, and it just started to, to really, um, boil. And it was at that time that it then became apparent to the administration of the hospital that they needed to, to act. Um, and unfortunately but fortunately, they came to Doctor Travelin and Doctor Jan Murray Garcia, who were pretty much the only black faces in the hospital at that time, in like in the not upper management, but in on the floor as doctors. Right. Um. And asked them, how do we work with you people? You know, um, that's how Doctor Trevelyan describes it. Um, and of course, the administration at that time were older white men. Right. Um, who, um, saw the problem but really didn't know how to go about the problem. Right. And so, doctor Jan Murray Garcia and, um, doctor, traveller and doctor Melanie Trevelyan took the charge. You know, they could have been insulted, said, you know, this is not our problem, but they took the charge because they want it better for their community. And, um, began putting together this cultural competence training. And that's what a lot of people don't know, if they haven't researched the history of cultural humility, that it derived from a cultural competence training module that the two put together. Um, and the module just didn't work. Um, there was something missing. People were coming out of it feeling more empowered to say, oh, I know how to work with you because I've been through this training, but not necessarily really. Able to take a stance and understand the perspective of the patients that they were seeing, and instead of letting them guide them to their healing, they were telling them what they knew about them. Um, and so they went back and kind of did this, uh, community forum where they brought in everyone in the hospital. They brought in the doctors, the administrators, the people who do the cleaning, um, the cooks, the security, everyone in the hospital, which is where one of the principles comes from, um, that they saw that it wasn't just something that could be done between a couple of people, but something that had to include the whole community on behalf of the community. Right. And so, um, through that, they had a talk with a colleague who came up with this idea of cultural humility and what it meant, and they took that statement and broadened it to a whole, um, aspect of principles. And so those four principles, um, you know, are what cultural humility is founded on. And I. Was practicing it in my own therapeutic work in the county. Um, and I saw the difference it was making it myself and the difference it was making in my connections with the youth that I was working with at the time. I saw how other people were watching me in the space and how it kind of changed their perspective. I saw how administration started to look differently at our program and at our youth and, um, and always kind of held on to it. And when I went back into my doctoral program where I met you, um, I knew right away that I wanted to make sure that held tight in art therapy, and I had a vehicle now to be able to do that in my doctoral program. And thankfully, through your support and the support of Doctor Carolyn and Doris, at the time, who was my second reader on my dissertation, really allowed me to expand that. Um, and so, yeah, that's where I ended up doing a lot of research, doing a lot of assessment. Um, doing a lot of presentations and lecturing and changing the dynamics of programs, which, again, is the fourth principle, the institutional accountability. Um, and thankfully, when I left and got my position at LMU, um, they allowed me to bring cultural humility there. And I ended up changing some of the dynamics. Well, a lot of the dynamics of the program there, um, and able to develop the book. With the support of the university and the program and, uh, yeah. And just have been continuing to do that work ever since. I know that was a long explanation, but thank you. That was a great explanation. And it it speaks to you as well as the concepts of cultural humility, like you're the most beautiful conduit of the message in how you keep showing up with it and your own, um, language in the book and the way you've put it together is so easy. It just makes so much sense. And for context, for people listening. Cultural competency was this old fashioned way of people trying to get a sense of how can we be supportive to people who look, sound, come from, behave in different ways? And it didn't really do a great job. It was exactly what you said with the idea of, well, let me teach you a little bit about each of these cultures or each of these religions, and now you know what to expect. And so now you know what to do. Instead of the culturally humble position which people are still struggling to embrace is to recognize. The medical patients, or the psychology clients, or the art therapy clients as the experts in their own experience, and that were really a conduit of art therapy and what we offer. But we are not the expert on their lived experience. There's no way anyone could ever achieve competency. We can't know everything about our own culture, much less anybody else's. We can only be open. And in fact, the research shows that it's the qualities of the provider that are the best predictor of can we engage in cross-cultural exchanges in the medical field and the psychology field in, in the world? It's a quality of us that's curious and open. And it's really been like this long, slow drag to move the field of psychology from the idea of competence where someone could know everything into this humble spot. But now we have scholarly humility, right? Like the stepping back of academia to say we're not the holders of all information, that there are other ways of knowing there's art as a way of knowing. There's community and culture as a way of knowing. There's religion of knowing and the way we approach our own humility. Has a huge impact on everyone around us. Right. Right. Yeah. You know, you really helped me. You said when when you were in the doctoral program, you said whatever I said. You said to me later, I didn't know you cared about racism. I didn't know you, like, had some some enthusiasm for that. And I was so glad you said that because I thought, oh, no, really, I'm not talking about it enough at all in a way that people know that that matters. And it you just like pointed. It was like one sentence you said you just pointed. And I'm like, oh yeah. You know, to be so wrapped up in academia and the perspective that they present and this is how I'm supposed to be, you just pointed in one direction. And the the women who taught me about anti-racism starting in 1995, I still meet with twice a month. We're in an anti-racism group, and it's deeply important to me. But like, it's so I'm so grateful that you pointed me out as like, really didn't even know you cared. Oh yeah, I do, and I have thought a lot and read a lot and reflected in my own art and writing, and it was just a really important moment for me. So I'm grateful that you said that. Thank you, I appreciate that. And again, it takes a really thoughtful, reflective, um, person to receive that kind of information. Um, sometimes I say things and I'm not quite sure how they're going to be received. And, um, I don't think about it sometimes until after I've said it. Um, although I have practice many, many, many years and being very cognizant of the words that come out of my mouth, um, because of being a black woman and having people misconstrued what I say because they're looking for what they want to hear instead of the words that are actually coming out of my mouth. So I realized through different encounters, especially when I was an early trainee, that, um, I had to be more thoughtful, um, about how I communicated. And so when I brought that to you, it it was one of those moments I felt comfortable enough in your presence that I didn't have to think really hard about. Should I say this or how is she going to receive this? I just said it. Um, and I think I said it out of enthusiasm because you said something that made me realize that you were you were in the fight, you know, like you were not looking to add to the problem, but you were looking to help advocate. And and it excited me, you know, and I wanted to let you know know that and how I responded. It's so cool that you did that. And I think it's a way that we can invite others. You know, how how you set it and recognizing I remember when I first went to college, um, I always sat in the punk rock corner with all the punk rockers, and you could always go there and there'd be somebody to play cards with and have coffee with. It's just a good place to go. And someone said to me, I really, I appreciate Amy, you're gay. Positive. And I said, what's that mean? And they said, well, I just think you aren't seeing anything different about who he was. Just hanging out, playing cards, having coffee that there wasn't any tension or awkwardness in how he presented himself. And my response and like that positive feedback that I got from him, I'm like, oh yeah, I am. That was kind of the word back then. Gay. Positive. I'm like, oh yeah, that's me. I'm I really want that. And so that was another moment of someone seeing and pointing. It's just like a little M&M. Oh yeah. A little positive reinforcement for who I wanted. Um, it it makes all the difference when we, we often forget to give praise or thanks or point something out in just small things, much less these big things. Mhm. It's just made a huge difference what you said. Thank you. I really do value that. I was an important moment for me too because that was when I knew I had an advocate. And. And I came to you in a moment. What? I really needed one. And I knew I had it in some of the other faculty, um, because of the history I had with them, but I wasn't too sure I had it with you. And, um, it was a really a moment of my own distress and being able to talk to you about it and having you respond in a way that you did was was again, exciting and, um, a relief. Oh, thanks. Let's talk about scholarly humility and the idea of how it fits into the context of a book around cultural humility, and that it is a lens from which we view the world. It's not just an add on. It's not merely, oh, here's a technique you could learn that might help you in your work. It is the work. It's the way to be in that we so often rely on the Rotarian approach of being unconditional in our regard for the people we work with. It's the it's belongs in that same category. This is how we give that unconditional regard to people. And so often it's an afterthought. What do you think of this? Yeah. I, um, I remember in the doctoral program, I think it might have been in one of your classrooms, your classes, and we were putting together our practicum, um, our group practicum and my cohort were offering a space for cultural humility or a space for, um, critical, reflective thinking about race and oppression. They offered a space for it, and I felt so infuriated in that moment. Um, and that might have been the day we had our first our conversation that you're referring to. I was so infuriated and upset, not directly at my cohort members who I adore, but. That we're we still were in a space where it was something to include versus a way of being. And I tried to get that across to the core at the time. And it was received but not received openly. And I think it was because there was a lack of understanding. Um, and again, that's when I realized how much more I needed to lean into cultural humility. And so in my academic scholarly work, I saw over the the years when people asked for me to, you know, include a piece in their book or write something that it was this we have to include this because it's important, but it's like just another skill, like in theory or, you know, looking at, uh, neuroscience. Like, you can also pay attention to cultural humility, you know, and it was like, wait, that's not what this is like. Um, when I was engaged in the American Art Therapy Association. That was one of the things I brought there. You know, which kind of restructured their foundation as well, because it was then understood that everything needed to be grounded on that, that it wasn't its separate pillar, but it was the foundation that all the other pillars came from. And so in my academic work, I've been more forthcoming, forthcoming about saying I don't want to be another subset of a skill that people can choose whether they want to engage in or not. Um, and in, in this manuscript. Right. I want to be understood that this is a perspective, a lens, a way of being in the work no matter what you do. Like it should come from the ground up. Like this is where, um, in my own culture, humility training. Doctor Allen teaches about foundation and the importance of understanding the foundation. Um, and I always start my trainings, my lectures in class about cultural humility and the foundation of it before I even tell them what it is and where it comes from. I talk about foundation. And so I think that I really want people to understand that it's not like a, an option. It's it should be a, um, requirement when we go into therapeutic relational work. Yes. That's so brilliantly said. And in my own scholarly development, I realized where I've done that too. In the Emerging Perspectives book that I co-authored with Doctor Carolyn. It was a chapter. It wasn't even a full chapter. It was a component of these are the perspectives we need to think of. And since then, my books are this is the foundational piece of it, and it is infused throughout. Like, it makes so much sense that we have to be humble in what we know, that we don't know everything. And certainly as a white woman, I know what I've been taught and I have to look and dig a little deeper. There's other ways that I've included it. I've challenged myself. This came from Doctor Sarah Creamer. How many women are on your syllabi for required reading? How many people of color are on your syllabi for required reading? Mike. All right. Now I check every time, like who is on this list of people and what am I recommending? And it's the same with modern creative woman. I, I quote woman, and every time on a Google search, I look for quotes by women on this topic, and I still get lists of quotes that are 90% men. So it just requires a looking. And it's not that it's not there. It's available to us. It just requires us to have that lens from which we are searching for our material, our friendships, our relationships, our entertainment. Everything is available when we look. Yeah. And I think that's that's the key. Right. And the challenge in today's social, political climate, right, is that we have technology now that has exploded since the pandemic. That has made it really easy for us not to think. It's made it really easy for us not to look, um, instead be fed. Right. Which is why we have social media feeds because we're being fed, um, opposed to searching and. It has made cultural humility more difficult to exist, because people feel as if they already know, because of what has been told to them, or what has been shown to them. Um, and no one's doing that critical reflection anymore, which is one of the main principles of cultural humility, is that critical self critique. We're not doing that anymore because our society is telling us, don't worry about that. You don't have to do that. We'll just tell you what you need to know or how you need to think and trust us, you know? Um, and, and and it's easy, right? Because we're working. We're we're taking care of our families. We're we're trying to survive. Right. And it's getting harder and harder to do that every day. So if I can put my mind at ease by just letting these things kind of seek in, um. Why not? Right. Um. Yeah, and it begs the question of why not do different? Why not take a moment to say, I'm just not going to take for granted that that's what this is. I'm going to do my own research. I'm going to ask I'm going to talk to the people. I'm going to read the books. I'm going to write, read the articles. You know, like, I push that so much in my own, um, pet, uh, pedagogy. Right. Like that. I want my students to be critical, critical of even the information that I give them. You know, I do the same thing. I research, I look and I present them with things, but I don't catch everything. Right. And that's my own humility to know they come back to me and say, did you know that, you know, this person is being supported through this or that, you know, um, they use these terms or that this was and they enlighten me, you know, um, and I love it because I know that they're sitting in a place of thoughtful engagement with the material that they're being given, even from the person who's telling them to be critical about the material you're being given. Um, and I think that, yeah, once again, we it's so hard to be culturally humble. The world is split and the world is split intentionally. And if we don't step in and find the gray, if we don't step in and pay attention to the nuance, um, it's going to wipe us out, literally. Um, on multiple levels as we are seeing the erasure of black culture. You know, um, as we are seeing the villains ization of immigrants and, you know, people who quote unquote don't belong here. Right. Um, we're seeing it in the way that women are being silenced. Um, we, you know, these are things that don't have to happen, but will if we don't come to the table and actually exercise our critical thinking. Absolutely. And I no longer think of the algorithm. I think of the people who designed an algorithm for convenience and ease and. The use of our social media. It was designed by a person to feed us in a certain way, and the one thing I always want is my own freedom, the psychological flexibility to not think in habitual ways or the spoon fed ways. You mentioned the feed. I want intellectual freedom in that way. And so once I started thinking of it as a person curating it for me, then I could step back and say, oh, this isn't reality. This is a version that's been designed for me. The freedom to step back and notice is what would allow the voices you mentioned to be heard and seen, and it requires scrolling through and finding people who are speaking in ways that we resonate with. They're there. They're not populating your feed unless you start looking. Yeah, yeah. And it's going, you know, further behind just our feet in our social media where AI is, you know, distinctly being designed, um, to give us everything we need to make things easier. Right. Um, and quote unquote, when it really is just turning our brains into mush really is what it's doing. Um, and making it easier for us to be receptive to anything. It's true. The research is in on the deterioration of our frontal lobe gray matter from short form videos. And there's already a plethora of examples of people who've tried to use AI for their own mental health or medical health, and they've lost their lives or had terrible, terrible experiences validated back from the AI. And I am constantly telling people, please don't use AI for your psychology, for your mental health. It's asking to be fed versus what we do as art therapists is pulling out your own knowledge and your own information, and deciding what's right for you through the art process, through speaking and writing, dancing. It is a dangerous place to be. And since we have no current regulations, maybe you and I should write some suggestions on guidelines for therapists, right? Yeah. And, you know, I have, um, faculty in our department who have expertise in this area. And I appreciate the work that they're doing because they're forefront in it with the ethics around how to use AI. Now, it is different when a clinician is thoughtfully using the tool to work with their clients versus turning your clients to AI as a clinician, right. Like there's differences there. And again, this is where the nuance comes in, right? It's not to say AI is horrible because I've seen beautiful things be done with AI in the sake of healing. When done with a thoughtful clinician who is aware of the ethics and the boundaries around using it. Um, and if we're not careful and really paying attention to that, um, that's where, again, like you said, the danger comes in because it it will give you whatever you want to hear and sometimes give you what you don't want to hear, but thinks that this could be good for you because they're working again through someone else's programming. And we tend to forget that. And I appreciate you mentioning that like someone creates these programs, it's not. It came out of nowhere. You know, humans created this with the intention to let it go wild. Um, and how wild will we let it get as people are losing their lives? Young ones are losing their lives because they don't have that critical frontal lobe processing that is necessary to understand this stuff. Exactly. And the research has been abundantly clear. Maybe 70 years of research that healing happens in relationship. It happens in communities. It happens in the context of a one on one conversation or a group conversation that the work of healing is less about what's being discussed and and about the topic of being together and being supported and feeling safe. And that is not an experience that we can create by ourselves with our computers. I wonder if you would shift into retreat and how you use retreat as stepping back. And it's part of like how we've talked so much about our work is to step back and observe it. You've mentioned the critical self-reflective inquiry as part of the cultural humility process is how we are able to move forward and know ourselves more. So what about retreat? And I know you've done dance and writing retreats, and sabbatical is coming up. Tell me about how you use that critical, self-reflective piece. Right. Um, and I do want to share, as I'm describing, some of the things that I have done. Retreat can simply be, as I've seen you do many times in your own work, a cup of coffee on the balcony. Right. That can be a retreat, um, sitting out on the backyard for a few hours. Yep. Although taking a flight and traveling to a new place, a new space, a new culture, engaging with new people, using your body and mind in ways that you may not use in your everyday lived experience, is also a retreat, right? I have been fortunate that I've traveled around the world with my dance group, um, in different retreats, and I've been to Cuba, I've been to Senegal, I've been to Mexico, I've been to Brazil. Um, in the sake of dance. Right. Um, and learning about the cultures, forms of dance and learning about where that comes from, the heritage of it, how to how to experience it in the body, and how to use that as a way to. Regulate the mind, but also invigorate the mind and at some times soothe the mind. You know, depending on the type of movement that you do and where that movement is occurring. Right. Um, I've danced on the beach, I've danced in studios, I've danced in community platforms with a host of other people, you know. Um, it's it's those things that we need to help ground ourselves, but also have that moment of reflection. And it doesn't have to be dance, right? We take yoga retreats. We take writing retreats. I've done several writing retreats, which it's interesting. I don't always come out writing, but I come out ready to write. Um, and sometimes people don't think about a retreat being just that. Right? It's it's the prep that you need in order to take the next step. Um, my writing retreats that I've been to have been at beautiful properties, beautiful spaces within, um, Southern California and. At the moment I'm like, I just want to be in this space. Like, I don't I don't really want to do much else, but just be around other like minded people or even just sit in a courtyard where people are spread out and everyone's engaged in writing in some way. Um, I've done gone to writing retreats and brought my art materials, and I've done art at the writing retreats. Um, and it has again, um, done this preparation for me so that when I leave out of these retreats, I'm ready. I have the ideas, I have the, the, um, motivation to go forth and then do the writing. So, yeah, I think, again, travel is beautiful. It's necessary. It's, um, the only way that you can actually have a thoughtful, reflective engagement, um, into yourself. Because it's hard to do it when you're engaged in homeostasis. Right? Um. So yeah, I love what you said about the retreat as preparation versus retreat as producing. And I've checked myself into a hotel for every major writing project. I did it for my dissertation, for all of my books. I'm going to do it again in January, and I make art, and I think, and I reflect, I'm working on the book, not necessarily in it, but the the ways of having that distance are so important. This morning I woke up a little too late to do my writing, and I thought in my head I said, oh no, I want to be centered. How am I going to do this? Okay, I'm going to do a lot more with my one minute standing on the balcony with my cup of coffee. Today, I did the ritual of it, the ongoing nature of it, of retreat. It could be going somewhere. Last weekend I went just by myself downtown. It's just in a different space. Exactly what you said about homeostasis. I want to say thank you so much for being in conversation with me and being in this ongoing dialogue, since I've known you about how we can be present and in the moment. Focus on the lens from which we're viewing things. The word paradigm. When I learned that word in college, I thought, aha, this is how I want to keep thinking of things. So I love that you and I can keep having these ongoing conversations. I really appreciate you so, so much. Thank you, thank you, thank you, and I appreciate you. Um, this is always so powerful for me. Um, because it is a way of reflecting. I don't do that until I have conversations like these sometimes. Um, and so I love that you invite me to engage in this. Um, it always gives me that new perspective. Um, and, and offers another possibility just by thinking and reflecting and engaging and appreciating and relating. So thank you. Thank you so much, Doctor Jackson.