Hiring with Intention with Henry Ward, CEO and Co-founder of Carta

Craft a hiring strategy that prioritizes fit over sheer talent.

Henry Ward, CEO and Co-Founder of Carta, shares his unconventional approach to hiring that challenges traditional recruitment methods.

In his conversation with Shannon, he explains how Carta narrows their talent search by focusing on specific skills and passions, ensuring a better fit for both the role and company culture. He also dives into the balance of hiring for strengths vs. avoiding weaknesses, and how transparency in recruitment helps candidates self-select, saving time and ensuring the right cultural fit.

Key Takeaways: 

• Align hiring with your company culture: Narrow your focus to candidates who fit both the skills and culture you need. This speeds up hiring and ensures a better long-term fit.
• Build an intentional hiring playbook: Define your company’s hiring principles early. It keeps everyone aligned as you grow and makes recruiting more consistent.
• Know when to hire for strength vs. avoiding weakness: Tailor your approach—hire for specific strengths in some roles and avoid weaknesses in others to bring in the right talent efficiently.

Timestamps: 

(00:00) Introduction
(02:23) Early hiring challenges at Carta
(03:44) Hiring for specific skills
(08:12) Why transparency in hiring helps candidates self-select
(10:51) Principles vs. heuristics in Carta's hiring process
(13:25) The importance of flexibility in hiring across different teams
(16:05) Hiring for strength vs. avoiding weakness
(18:07) The role of founders and CEOs in shaping early-stage hiring

Transcript

Henry Ward [00:00:00]:

You kind of can't control the quality once you hire somebody or what the quality of the candidate pool is. But what you can be really good at is trying to figure out did I get the right person into the right role at the right time. And to me, hiring excellence is about figuring out what the right person is and set a quality to that person for exactly that role we're looking for.

Shannon Ogborn [00:00:21]:

Welcome to Offer Accepted, the podcast that elevates your recruiting game. I'm your host, Shannon Ogborn. Join us for conversations with talent leaders, executives and more to uncover the secrets to building and leading successful talent acquisition teams. Gain valuable insights and actionable advice, from analyzing cutting edge metrics to confidently claiming your seat at the table. Let's get started. Hello and welcome to another episode of Offer Accepted. I'm Shannon Ogborn, your host, and this episode is brought to you by Ashby. The all in one recruiting platform, empowering ambitious teams from seed to IPO and beyond.

Shannon Ogborn [00:00:58]:

Super excited. Today we have a little bit of a different type of guest joining us than usual. Henry Ward is the CEO and Co-founder of Carta, which is trusted by more than 40,000 companies, over 7000 funds and spvs, and over 2 million equity holders to manage cap tables, compensation valuations, liquidity and more. Carta has been included on many, many lists, including Forbes, world's best cloud companies list, Fast Company's most innovative list and Inc's fastest growing private companies list. Henry brings super, super incredible insights into hiring as a founder. So we're super excited to have him here today. I know that it may seem maybe slightly obvious to people as CEO. You may do a lot of different things, though.

Shannon Ogborn [00:01:41]:

Can you give our listeners a little bit of background on yourself and like kind of what your role is at Carta?

Henry Ward [00:01:47]:

Yeah, so I'm the Founder and CEO. Started the company a little over ten years ago. Eleven years ago, yeah. Today we're about 2000 employees across the United States, 150 people in London, 60 people in Singapore, 150 people in Brazil. So we're pretty, we've got offices all over the world.

Shannon Ogborn [00:02:05]:

Just super, super exciting, amazing. Love the global aspect. And I'm sure that plays a bit into what we're going to talk today about hiring. But as you were starting Carta 1011 years ago, and even maybe today, what stood out to you as major issues to tackle in terms of hiring?

Henry Ward [00:02:23]:

Well, especially early stage startups, it's a lot about sort of finding the gap where other people aren't looking. You know, if you're just competing with everybody else, what differentiates you what makes you unique. And one of my favorite stories in the early days is we started in Mountain View, Palo Alto, Mountain View area. And you know, back then in 2013, Google was the competition. Everybody was going to Google. And Google had this recruiting philosophy, which is if you had any sort of computer science knowledge, we'll interview you. And they would do o of n algorithm problems and all kinds of basic computer science stuff. And they didn't really care what language you wrote, what type of technology you worked with, or software programming language.

Henry Ward [00:03:10]:

They just cared basic computer science skills. And that was what everybody did was just cast a wide net and then interview because it was so hard to find engineers. And we went the other direction. So we said, hey, we were Python and Django at the time in Palo Alto. So we said, hey, if you're a python engineer that likes Django, that lives on the peninsula and wants to work for finance and for a fintech company, we want to talk to you. And that was it. We wouldn't talk to anybody else. Like you're a ruby developer, Java, like we wouldn't talk to anybody else.

Henry Ward [00:03:44]:

We'd only talk to people that love Python, Django and finance. And most of the conventional wisdom was you weeded out all these great engineers and great talent. But for us it was really a very quick filtering exercise. We knew exactly who to go recruit. And then when we found those people, they were really excited about joining Carta because many of these engineers were passionate about Python. They wanted to work on Python, wanted to work on Django, they wanted to work on finance. I think at the time there was only one other company that you could do that and it was wealthfront down the street. So it's us versus wealthfront, and that was it.

Henry Ward [00:04:17]:

And we would pretty consistently win that recruiting battle, us versus wealthfront. So this sort of like defining very clearly by narrowing the aperture of what you want. It's contrarian, it's counterintuitive wisdom, but I think it's actually one of the best things startups can do, because otherwise you're just, you're recruiting in an ocean and it becomes, the cost of recruiting becomes very high.

Shannon Ogborn [00:04:41]:

Totally. And at that time it sounds like you were needing to hire fast and you had a lot of first time managers, and that also has an impact, and your stage has an impact on how you're hiring. And I think if you can narrow it down a little bit when you're early stage, that allows you to hire.

Henry Ward [00:04:59]:

Even faster, you know, defining what you're not also allowed everybody, candidates to self select in. They're like, oh, that's not for me. You don't have infinite resources like Google or Facebook to interview a million people. So if people could self select out, you can direct that recruiting energy to people that were self selecting in. And I think that's really the missing piece of a lot of recruiting strategies, which is, let's cast a wide net, but for every person that you're talking to isn't the right fit. You're missing out on opportunity to find somebody that is, it's qualification. It's just like sales. Your CAC goes up considerably if you don't define your ideal customer totally.

Shannon Ogborn [00:05:39]:

This actually brings me to how I found this article and reach out to you because I was so curious. So you had this how to hire article that you published nine years ago. You recently republished it and it really caught my eye and I stopped and thought, you know, there may be a lot of startups today that are experiencing that same struggle of defining how they want to hire a for their startup. Can you walk us through why it's so important to establish early on in the company journey how you want to hire as a company?

Henry Ward [00:06:12]:

So one of the problems in these early stages when you're growing really fast is Palantir used to do this really well. Like, I guess until they were like a thousand people. I don't know if it's true, but urban legend is until you were a thousand people, the founders interviewed every person. That was the final interview, got into Palantir and that was like quality control. I did not do that. And we just had so many interviews. So many people were hiring in all different parts of the business. And so the problem was, one, most people don't really know how to hire well or interview well and hire well.

Henry Ward [00:06:47]:

Two, they don't know often what they're hiring and interviewing for because they might be interviewing just for the job that they have. But you really want to interview for the company. There's this whole problem about manager bias. Where is the manager solving for their problem that they want to hire just to fix their problem, or are they solving for the company? What do you do when that's a conflict? For example, a manager might say, look, I just need to put a body in because the team and me are so overwhelmed. So I'm just going to hire somebody that I don't think is the best person, but I need to solve this problem, which is good for the manager and maybe even good for the team, but it's not good for the company and how do you solve those conflicts? And especially in early stage, many early stage employees are young and they're young in their career. They became managers because they've got battlefield promotion, all of those types of things. And so establishing a playbook that everybody could work off of to provide a consistent recruiting culture, recruiting experience, selection process, I think is really important for early stage companies.

Shannon Ogborn [00:07:51]:

Yeah, I think it goes also back to this idea of candidate attraction in a way, and self selecting out so that you're saving time on both sides. And I know that you posted this publicly. Any rationale as to why you would want to post it publicly versus privately?

Henry Ward [00:08:12]:

Well, it was one of these things where I did this presentation for the company, and I said, okay, we're recruiting. We're hiring a lot. Everybody, I want to talk to you about some principles of hiring. And everybody's like, that's super helpful, but how are you going to tell the next people, right, you did this, you can't do the same presentation every week for all the new employees. And we're like, oh, well, why don't we just publish it on the internal wiki? But then it became, well, why would we wait for them to come in and see it? Why don't we just publish it publicly? And then everybody will read it and they'll know exactly what they're interviewing for. And then if they come, they'll know why they got hired and also what they should be interviewing because anybody that gets hired at Carta will be hiring pretty quickly. So it just seemed like, and we've always been a company that errors significantly on the side of transparency been criticized for too much. So, but this is just one of our, like, hey, we'll just put it out there and say what we think.

Henry Ward [00:09:10]:

People will hate it and they will never come to Carta and people will like it. We also published eshares 101, which is our internal training doc, our internal culture training doc, which I used to give to all new hires. And it was, you know, about sports and, you know, being the best in the world at what we do and all these kinds of things. And some people really hated it and they wouldn't come to Carta, and some people really liked it. And that was really the nice thing about publishing this stuff was it became a checksum on recruiting because by sort of definition, they couldn't get the people that didn't subscribe because they, people who saw it and didn't like it wouldn't even apply.

Shannon Ogborn [00:09:48]:

That makes total sense. And I think especially after, honestly, what candidates and employees have gone through in the last couple of years. Transparency is really at the top of the list for what candidates are looking for in terms of the candidate experience and the employee experience. And they want the best picture. They can get ahead of time into what they're going to get down the line. And I think it's awesome to have that content out there so that people can look at it and say, yeah, I already know this isn't for me, or, yeah, this actually is, is amazing for me. So I love that. And we're not going to get too far into your own principles and heuristics today because, and we'll talk about this in a little bit.

Shannon Ogborn [00:10:31]:

It's really important that every company defines that for themselves. So you're not here to say you should hire this way or this way, but in terms of building this, how to hire out, can you talk about the two areas that you have? So you have principles and you have heuristics. What are those defined as and why do you want or need both in the how to hire?

Henry Ward [00:10:51]:

So principles are kind of what we're, what our values are, what we're looking for. And then heuristics are what are the things the tells, the symptoms or the things you look for that imply a principle exists or the person has that principle or will follow that principle? That's the difference is what are you looking for? And then how do you figure that out? 100%. Shannon, every company's got to do their own. Every founder has got to do their own. I think it also gets complicated. And we're going through this, which is even within one company, you may have different principles and heuristics depending on which team you're hiring for. So, for example, we have 350 accountants and we also have about 300 engineers. Would we use the same principles and heuristics that we, and we also have about 200 salespeople.

Henry Ward [00:11:39]:

Would we use the same principles and heuristics to hire accountants, engineers and salespeople? When you're small, your alignment is to the company than the function. When you're 20 people, 30 people, but when you're 2000, people are really more aligned to their team than they are the company and their role and their function. And so one of the things we think a lot about is what heuristics principles do we put in for teams that are different and which ones do we try to keep the same across the company? And it's a very tough problem. You also see this, we're talking about recruiting, but you also see this in performance reviews. Should the performance review process for an accountant be the same as for a salesperson as an engineer? And unfortunately, I think most companies, it is. They just like, they standardize the performance reviews, they standardize the recruiting process, they standardize everything. And I actually think that's a mistake.

Shannon Ogborn [00:12:32]:

I think the other side of that, too. As you were mentioning earlier, you are a global company, and culture of geography also plays a big role into how people perceive the heuristics and the performance reviews. And I felt this somewhat, a little bit when I was at Google, that some of the values and principles and things that were looked at during our performance review didn't necessarily match culture elements of other places. And so I always found it very fascinating, like, how do you really solve for that role type? Geography, cultural geography, and all of that. And it is definitely a big problem to solve. So it's nice to hear, though, that it's a consideration for you guys, because it definitely, I think, can become very taxing for people if it doesn't seem that that's at all considered in what you're building and putting out.

Henry Ward [00:13:21]:

Well, I'll give you like a very an example that we wrestle with. So everybody's heard of the ten X engineer. In accounting, you're not hiring for ten X accountants. You're hiring for accountants that don't make mistakes, that know the rules and can apply the things and are diligent and consistent and disciplined. So one way to think about it is that for engineers, you might have a ten X engineer. That's amazing at writing back end code, but they're not well rounded on infrastructure or website design or front end, as an example. So we often call that in engineering as an example, we might say we're hiring for strength, where in accounting we're hiring for lack of weakness. If accountant doesn't know some of the rules, that's a problem.

Henry Ward [00:14:05]:

But if an engineer doesn't know everything, they can make up for that if they're really good at a very specific type of software development. And so if you're hiring for strengthen, what you typically would do is you design an interview committee where it would be a single decider. There may be a committee that opines and gives suggestions and thoughts, but there's one decider who's going to choose the candidate based on their strength. Whereas if you're hiring for lack of weakness, you would do it by committee, you do it by vote. So that if any one person found a weakness that the others missed, you would veto that. So one person can veto a candidate. And that simple question of, are we hiring for strength or lack of weakness? Completely changes not just the questions and how you construct an interview process, but even the selection process. It's one or many that decide.

Henry Ward [00:14:58]:

And unfortunately, most companies have the same interview process across the company. And one of the things we talk a lot about Cartae is, for this particular role, are we hiring for strength or lack of weakness? And then we try to construct an interview process around that framework.

Shannon Ogborn [00:15:15]:

I really like that thought process. I think that's very good, contextually, for our listeners to hear how you guys are doing that. So that's one consideration, right? Lack of weakness versus strengths. Are there any other considerations that you think companies should make when creating their own how to hire document?

Henry Ward [00:15:36]:

So there's like, I'll do a lot of the a or b. So lack of weakness versus strengths is one, one of my favorites. Another is experience versus trajectory. You know, teach the organization what they've done and bring expertise into the role, or you hiring somebody that you will teach what to do, but you expect a high trajectory. So experience versus trajectory, another way of saying it is, are we teaching them or are they teaching us, is one of the questions. And so if you're hiring, like, a very senior person that has done whatever infrastructure, it's a vp of infrastructure, da da da da da, you'd want to hire somebody that's got a lot of experience in this, and you construct an interview process to make sure they have that experience versus, hey, you might be hiring. You're starting a new project, engineering project. You don't need a ton of expertise, but you need someone that you can teach.

Henry Ward [00:16:26]:

Here's what we want to go do. And can they execute on that plan? So that's another big one is are we teaching them or are they teaching us? Another one is playbook versus athlete. So you see this a lot in executive roles, but for example, like, marketing is a very common one. So you've got marketers, cmos, or vps in marketing that come and they have a playbook. I call them playbook marketers. They're like, I have a playbook. I come in and I put in HubSpot. I do this, I do that, and I pull everything together, and I bring my knowledge and my playbook to it.

Henry Ward [00:16:58]:

And so you're hiring them for a very specific playbook that you're looking for versus an athlete, where you're like, look, you gotta figure it out. There's no playbook at Carta. You gotta start with first principles and figure all this out from the ground up. And those are two very different types of executives. There's a ton of these a versus b ones that we talk a lot about at Carta.

Shannon Ogborn [00:17:17]:

I know one of the other things we talk about is who should be leading this initiative to build the how to hire thoughts there.

Henry Ward [00:17:26]:

I think early stage, it's got to come from the founder. I think the CEO is always intimately involved in this. And then if you have a great head of talent and head of people, they drive the execution of it.

Shannon Ogborn [00:17:38]:

You got to a little bit of it earlier. But I'm curious, all in all, how do you evolve with your how to hire a and can people change their minds? Can you go from a to b? How often can you switch, is that off putting to your employees? You know, like, how do you evolve with your how to hire and push innovation without confusing people as to what you're trying to do and accomplish in your hiring?

Henry Ward [00:18:07]:

I think you definitely can. And there's nothing wrong with going back and checking in with employees and the company, you know, every three months, six months, a year, whatever it is, and go, this is still true. This has changed. I think, you know, company culture really came from modern company culture. Building came from a book called built to last is an old book, I guess. I think in the nineties, the thesis of the book was, you look at the great, enduring companies, and they had principles that they had written down, your values they had written down and ascribed to, and those were timeless for the, for the company, and that's how you built it. I actually don't think that is probably right. I think it was a selection issue when, when they gave those examples.

Henry Ward [00:18:49]:

There's a lot to learn in the, in the book. It's not a criticism of a book. I think what they're missing is how much the culture actually has to evolve over time. The best thing that a founder CEO can do is help the company understand when the starting culture, which is what how to hire was and all those things. But then how the culture evolves over time. And then perhaps even most importantly, how the culture evolves in different departments. So one of the questions we talk a lot about is, is card of one culture or a collection of cultures? And I think, like it or not, we're a collection of cultures. We hire San Francisco engineers.

Henry Ward [00:19:26]:

We hire accountants in Salt Lake City. We hire Wall street people in our New York office. You know, we hire people in Brazil. We are a collection of cultures. And so how do you manage multicultural set of offices and maybe more importantly, set of departments. That's been the challenge that we have to think through.

Shannon Ogborn [00:19:46]:

Definitely. That kind of brings me to my last question, which is how do you really continuously get new team members on board with this philosophy and methods that you have? Especially considering that there's some people who maybe have never done a lot of hiring before, and those people are probably a little bit easier to get on board. But then you have vps, svPs, C levels who are coming in from a career of hiring people maybe in the way that they like. How do you get everyone on board with this?

Henry Ward [00:20:18]:

Well, I think, you know, if you are writing down and documenting, you know, what you're looking for and all those things, just the fact that they came in to the company, hopefully if you hired them, they're mostly on board with that stuff, just since they, they were selected, hopefully based on those things. So hopefully it's reinforcing when they start to do it. There is this question, which is, okay, let's say you bring a new executive on board and you hire them according to your principles, but of course no one's exactly that, right? Everyone's a kaleidoscope and complex. So then they start hiring, they take their principles, but they have their own spin on it. So it's different. It's their version of it. Is that a feature or a bug of the system? If you look at built to last and many of the kind of older culture books, they would say it's a bug. The key to this is to keep a very consistent, almost franchise like model in recruiting.

Henry Ward [00:21:18]:

I think that's true in some companies. I think there are companies where that's true. I think every company is different. I think in a company like ours, where we have so many different business lines, different businesses, different domains, we compete in cap tables, we compete in public markets, we compete in accounting, we compete in all these different things. That's actually a feature. Our culture is designed to expand and change and be not monolithic, but I think that's a deliberate, or should be a deliberate decision or at least an explicit question for management teams and CEO's is, hey, is culture creep a feature or bug of the system? And then if it's a feature, you actually want to inspire that, and if it's a bug, you want to contain it.

Shannon Ogborn [00:22:01]:

That makes total sense. And like you said, it really is the intentional piece of it, the intent piece of it that matters. If you're doing it without intent, then you're probably going to end up with something you don't want in your hiring process. And that kind of actually brings me to a couple of questions that we really love to ask everyone, and I'm very curious to get your thoughts here, because you are one of our few non recruiting leadership recruiter guests. We talk a lot at Ashby about hiring excellence and what that means to people. I would love to hear, when you hear the term hiring excellence, what does that mean to you?

Henry Ward [00:22:40]:

I think for a lot of people it means, like, you know, you hire the best person. You know, like, it's a talent thing. And I'm not discounting talent, and quality matters a lot, but it's a complex world and people are very different. It's hard to define the best person. What I would say is great recruiting. Great hiring is what I would call. There's a book called Loonshots, which is a great book about how to run organizations, but they have this thing called Project Fitness, which is how good are you as an organization of matching a person to the role? There's part one, which is how talented or, you know, good as a person. But then did you put them, fit them in the right role? And this is the thing, you kind of can't control the quality once you hire somebody, or what the quality of the candidate pool is.

Henry Ward [00:23:26]:

But what you can be really good at is trying to figure out, did I get the right person into the right role at the right time. And to me, hiring excellence is about figuring out what the right person is and set a quality to that person for exactly that role we're looking for. I think it gets conflated with the best person because we think all jobs are basically roughly the same, and we're all recruiting for the same type of job. And so you're just looking for the best engineer, looking for the best salesperson, all of those things. But if you think about this as a more multidimensional problem, one person, Bob, could be excellent at our company in a sales role for mid market cap tables, but terrible at a different company for a sales role and vice versa. Mary could be excellent at a different company in marketing, but at our company in this marketing world, it doesn't work, and we see it all the time. I think we assume if somebody's bad at one job, they'll be bad at all jobs, and I just don't think that's true. It's this interesting thesis that I think people don't really spend much time talking about, which is also why background checks are sort of, I think, hit and miss, which is we just assume there's one axis to measure talent on.

Henry Ward [00:24:40]:

And if they're good there, they'll be good here. And if they're good here, they'll be good there. And everybody's on the same axis. And I actually think like, there's so many examples of people being amazing doing this and really struggling doing that. And that comes down to this project fitness concept of can you get the right person in the right position?

Shannon Ogborn [00:24:56]:

Even if someone was fired from a company because they weren't meeting performance standards, that does not mean that they will not be a good, productive, high performing employee at a different company. It's just that company wasn't a fit. Now, sometimes there's a trend of it and then maybe that's cause our concern. But in terms of like one isolated action, like, I know a couple of people who have been fired who have gone on to be really, really amazing at the next company they work for. And it's because they weren't that match, that fit like you're talking about. And it has more to do with the match of the company and the person than just the person or just the company. So it's a really interesting, really interesting concept there.

Henry Ward [00:25:38]:

I got fired before I became a founder. It was my last job. I got fired. That's why I became a founder, because I got fired.

Shannon Ogborn [00:25:45]:

There we go. Exhibit a. It kind of is like Michael Jordan got cut from the basketball team and then he became the greatest basketball player of all time. But I would love to get to your recruiting. Hot. Take this.

Henry Ward [00:25:59]:

Probably isn't that spicy, but I. One of the things I think recruiting used to just be a sales job and it was the responsibility of the manager to really hire the person and assess the talent. More and more recruiting is now being called talent because the recruiting function is taking more and more responsibility of saying, hey, we're seeing the market, we're understanding what the talent profiles look like. We have a perspective on talent. And so I think it's becoming more and more a talent organization. But what's missing in talent today is it's not full circle. In most companies, we don't even do this, although we're starting to try, which is recruiters come in, they bring the best talent, they throw them into the company, and then they go on and sort of say goodbye and they go find the next person. But there isn't like this full circle loop, which is we really should be evaluating the recruiters not on who they hire, but how successful they are at the company, you know, so it should be like a twelve month look back, like, was this person.

Henry Ward [00:26:54]:

Great. Did we have to fire them? Did they quit three months in? Like, that's how we should be evaluating recruiters. Not if they get people in, but most companies aren't doing. There's this kind of weird handoff that happens where in recruiting you get the person in the company and then you say Sia, and then HR takes over. And HR is the post recruiting process. But there isn't this full circle loop, actually, to the talent.org of recruiting. We're trying to think through doing that better, and I think more and more companies will start doing that.

Shannon Ogborn [00:27:23]:

There's definitely a lot of conversation, especially lately, on quality of hire. Who's accountable? Or is it more of an informative situation where recruiting teams or talent teams aren't held accountable for quality of hire, but they're informed so that they can make better hires who stay longer. And then it kind of incentivizes more of the right things. Like we're finding the right match. It's not just butts and seats, but we're also explaining things very transparently to candidates so that if there's a clear misalignment, we don't feel pressure as talent and recruiting to get that person in the door. We actually feel more inclined to say, hey, this actually might not be a good fit for this reason. It's your choice, but I'm just giving you the information. And then your retention goes up because you have less people who feel like they were uninformed or misinformed when they were in the recruiting process.

Shannon Ogborn [00:28:14]:

So there's definitely a lot of interesting conversation of who's accountable for quality of hire and kind of what the outcomes are. So I know I've talked with a lot of our Ashby customers about that, and it's really interesting point of conversation, no 100% clear definition. And every company does it a little bit differently. And I think it's another thing that you can have the metric, and even if we all agree on that, you still have the company culture that you have to work around of who's responsible ultimately for that. So definitely, definitely. An interesting, interesting point there. Well, we are coming up on our time. Where should people go to learn more about you and Carta?

Henry Ward [00:28:53]:

Carta.com. carta.com. Everything you need to know about us.

Shannon Ogborn [00:28:58]:

Is there easy enough? And where can people follow you?

Henry Ward [00:29:01]:

I'm on LinkedIn a lot. That's kind of my platform of choice. You just find me Henry Wardcard, Athenae.

Shannon Ogborn [00:29:06]:

LinkedIn well, Henry, thank you so much again for joining us on Offer Accepted. I appreciate you spending the time, and I think these insights will be really great. So thank you.

Henry Ward [00:29:14]:

Super. Thank you Shannon.

Shannon Ogborn [00:29:16]:

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