Redesigning Hiring Assessments to Improve Selection Accuracy with Hebba Youssef, CPO at Workweek

What if hiring projects could actually improve the candidate experience?

Hebba Youssef, CPO at Workweek and Creator of I Hate It Here, is known for her sharp takes on modern HR, and this conversation is no exception. With Shannon, she discusses how thoughtful, well-structured projects can lead to better hiring outcomes, more equitable processes, and clearer expectations for both candidates and hiring managers.

They explore what makes a project fair (hint: it’s all about time, relevance, and rubrics), when to introduce it in the process, and why relying on interviews alone just doesn’t cut it. Hebba also shares how her team uses candidate feedback to refine the experience and why transparency at every stage is key.

Key takeaways:

1. Projects lead to better hiring decisions: Well-designed take-home assignments reveal real capabilities and reduce the risk of hiring based on personality or surface-level impressions.
2. Rubrics support fair evaluation: Clear, role-specific scoring criteria help teams assess consistently, reduce bias, and stay focused on what actually matters for the job.
3. Early projects save time later: Introducing assessments earlier in the process helps filter candidates efficiently and avoids wasting time on final rounds with poor fits.
4. Transparency improves experience: Setting expectations from the start builds trust with candidates and ensures they understand what the job entails before they accept.

Timestamps:
(00:00) Introductions
(06:08) Preference for clear, objective project guidelines  
(08:30) Evaluating talk vs. action  
(12:18) Balancing skills vs. cultural fit  
(14:44) Calibrating performance reviews  
(19:10) Intense hiring kickoff strategy  
(22:40) Embrace iterative improvement  
(23:56) AI in project completion: a balance  
(27:03) Interview privilege and honesty  
(30:01) Projects enhance candidate clarity  
(34:40) Interview process: staying efficient

Transcript

Hebba Youssef [00:00:00]:
My least favorite thing is when you just build a process that has nothing to do with the outcome, and that happens all the time. If you cannot look at your process and say, this actually gave me my desired outcome, then what are you doing? But I think, like, hiring excellence is like a. It's like a pipe dream. I'm like, every day I think I'm like, we're B. We're a solid B. Like, hiring excellence would be like an A plus to me. And I think every day I'm just trying to take steps to get us closer to it.

Shannon Ogborn [00:00:24]:
Welcome to Offer Accepted, the podcast that elevates your recruiting game. I'm your host, Shannon Ogborn. Join us for conversations with talent leaders, executives and more to uncover the secrets to building and leading successful talent acquisition teams gain valuable insights and actionable advice, from analyzing cutting edge metrics to confidently claiming your seat at the table. Let's get started. Hello and welcome to another episode of Offer Accepted. I'm Shannon Ogborn, your host, and this episode is brought to you by Ashby, the all in one recruiting platform. Empowering ambitious teams from seed to IPO and beyond. I am super excited to be here today with hiba Yousef.

Shannon Ogborn [00:01:03]:
She is not only the creator behind the newsletter and podcast, I hate it here. But also the CPO of work week and is on a mission to change hr. She has a lot of hot takes, so everyone buckle in for this. Hiba, so great to have you here.

Hebba Youssef [00:01:15]:
I'm pumped to be here. I do have a lot of hot takes. It's now becoming synonymous with my name. Well, that's the hot takes.

Shannon Ogborn [00:01:21]:
Yeah, with the hot takes. I love that. Well, today we're going to get into a topic that seems to be very hot on LinkedIn on the candidate side lately, which is projects and hiring. But we're going to talk about this from the internal perspective and how companies should be thinking about this. So kind of setting the stage a little bit. Can we talk about why projects or assignments matter in the hiring process?

Hebba Youssef [00:01:46]:
I think it's really hard to actually assess someone's skills in a. In just an interview. Like, I could talk really good talk and probably convince you I could do brain surgery. Maybe. I've watched enough Grey's Anatomy. I can literally tell you how to go through brain surgery. But, like, I couldn't actually do brain surgery. And so I think, like, when you're thinking about interview processes, most people aren't good at ascertaining does this person actually have the skill? So I like projects because it shows you the Candidate can actually do the thing that you need them to do.

Shannon Ogborn [00:02:13]:
I love that. And the goal of hiring right, is predicting success. And I think that speaks to, again, the skills, the how instead of the why. And just really being able to get into the nitty gritty of can someone actually do this job?

Hebba Youssef [00:02:37]:
Brittany and I talking about how so many people just hire off vibes.

Shannon Ogborn [00:02:40]:
Yeah, no, we're not hiring our vibes.

Hebba Youssef [00:02:41]:
We're not hiring off vibes. We're trying to get people who can actually do this job and do it well. And it's, like, really hard to do that in an interview. A lot of people aren't trained to do it. Even. I've made bad hires before. And I'm like. Would call myself, like, a pretty seasoned interviewer, But I still think there's, like, a lot for me to learn, too.

Hebba Youssef [00:02:56]:
And so I imagine, like, a hiring manager who's never interviewed before, there are someone in. Maybe they're just like them. They went to the same school, they grew up in the same area. They talk similarly. It's easy to be like, yeah, that person's going to be so good at this job, because I see myself in them. But you're not actually figuring out, can they do the brain surgery is not my example. We're all doing.

Shannon Ogborn [00:03:15]:
Yeah, we're. We're really. We're really hot on the brain surgery. Well, I think the. Having worked with a lot of hiring managers, there's a lot of hiring managers who are a little bit, like, confused as to what predictive hiring actually is and what you can implement to achieve that. And a lot of people do think that vibes are predictive. Unfortunately, that is just. Or fortunately, actually, maybe that's just not the case, especially around.

Shannon Ogborn [00:03:41]:
I've seen it around culture. And not that, like, assessments aren't a About culture. It's about skill. But just the thought of, like, I'd want to get a drink with this person. It's like, well, I once had a.

Hebba Youssef [00:03:51]:
Hiring manager say that in feedback. And I was like, I don't care. Can they do this job? Yes or no.

Shannon Ogborn [00:03:56]:
Right.

Hebba Youssef [00:03:56]:
You getting a drink with them does not determine if they can actually do this job that we are hiring them for. Like, sure, I want to hang out with great people, too, that I work with, But I also want to work with competent people who deserve the job. And so I think a lot of times the vibe hiring too, I get angry because it's not equitable. You're not actually assessing people on anything. There's no rubric for Vibes.

Shannon Ogborn [00:04:14]:
There's no rubric. There's no rubric for Vibe. I know that you have mentioned that not everything is teachable. Tell me more about that.

Hebba Youssef [00:04:22]:
I work at a creator led media company. We're a content company at its core. So there are some skills that I think about, like writing certain copy in a certain way that's like an actual learned trait versus just like naturally having it.

Shannon Ogborn [00:04:35]:
I guess it also depends on what level you're hiring for and your expectations. But there's skills that you expect the person to already have coming into the job and then there's skills that you're willing to teach the person depending on the role or the level. And assessments kind of help suss that out a little bit.

Hebba Youssef [00:04:52]:
I think most things are teachable. I would say like 90% of the things we're hiring. Well, I guess if you're at a really technical company, maybe not 90, but I think like the majority of things can be taught. But there are certain skills that people really need, like finance. Let's say you're in accounting. I can't just hire someone who's like interested in accounting. I need somebody who's actually done accounting. So that's like a skill someone needs in engineering too.

Hebba Youssef [00:05:12]:
And I think of like you're going up to like a technical or a principal architect. Like they will have certain skills that an engineer one or two years into their career might not even have, but they could learn them eventually. But like if you're hiring for that principal architect role, you need somebody who's done this type of work before.

Shannon Ogborn [00:05:26]:
Definitely. Well, let's get into a little bit of the how. What do you think makes a good hiring project?

Hebba Youssef [00:05:34]:
It has to be time bound. So this is like really fun because I have a lot of hiring managers who have never hired before at work week that I'm working with. And we do use projects pretty consistently across roles that we really need them to have a certain skill set. And working with hiring managers is fascinating. So send me a project and it'll be like, I just want them to do this thing. And I'm like, but what do you mean? There's like no instructions. It's no time bound there. This thing is subjective.

Hebba Youssef [00:05:57]:
You can't. So I think what makes a really good project is it needs to be like a set time to do it. I hate projects that are like, take as long as you want. I think that takes advantage of the person totally. So I like it.

Shannon Ogborn [00:06:06]:
They'll take 17 hours.

Hebba Youssef [00:06:08]:
Yeah, I mean, I love when projects say like, on average, this will take you one hour or four hours so that the candidate knows. Okay, here's what I should be doing. It needs to be specific. I hate things that are like, open to interpretation. So something we've had recently is we had a hiring manager be like, I want the candidate to pick the topic. And I had to explain, like, picking a topic is like such a subjective thing. What makes it a good topic or a bad topic? If you can produce a rubric for me to show me what good looks like versus what bad looks like, then great. That can be an element of the test, but it cannot be subjective.

Hebba Youssef [00:06:38]:
Assessing someone on like picking a topic or picking a brand I think is like kind of hard if you don't have a set.

Shannon Ogborn [00:06:43]:
Well, just let's bias in because then you're judging them on the topic instead of like the content.

Hebba Youssef [00:06:48]:
Yeah, that's why I said, I said you could lose a really great candidate who produced brilliant content, but maybe picked the wrong topic. And like, picking a good topic is kind of a teachable skill, I think.

Shannon Ogborn [00:06:57]:
Totally.

Hebba Youssef [00:06:57]:
When they get to know somebody, when they would know their brand, their vibe, like that's something you can teach versus like the content writing piece that's a little harder. They have to know how to do it.

Shannon Ogborn [00:07:06]:
Right. You need them to be able to do that when they walk in the door.

Hebba Youssef [00:07:08]:
Yeah. So I said specific time bound, something that's actually relevant to the role. You'd be so surprised how many projects I've gotten from hiring managers that have nothing to do with the job. And I have to be like, what are you doing here?

Shannon Ogborn [00:07:20]:
What is this? What are we accomplishing?

Hebba Youssef [00:07:22]:
What are we actually accomplishing here? Like, what is the assessment? I think the industry that's like the furthest, or I guess the function that's the further furthest in doing this well is like engineering assessments. I think those are like incredibly specific. There are so many companies that do that really well too. And those are just from the out of the box, like really good. When you're building your own projects internally, I think it can be harder. But like, look at those examples, I think, and they've like really guided me to be like, okay, a specific thing an engineer needs to know how to do. Now let's look at that. What is a specific thing a content marketing person needs to do or specific thing a salesperson needs to do that really helps.

Shannon Ogborn [00:07:55]:
One of the other things you mentioned to me is that a good project is a supplement for interviews, not a replacement.

Hebba Youssef [00:08:02]:
Oh my God. Yeah. Could you Imagine like just take this project, we'll decide if we're going to interview or not. I'm like, it doesn't work like that. So like, when you're thinking of a candidate you really want, it's a well rounded picture you're trying to get in an interview. Which is why I think when you just rely on talking to people, it's not a well rounded picture because everyone can prepare to say the right thing to you. Right. But not everybody can do the project.

Hebba Youssef [00:08:24]:
Which is why I love projects, candidly, because I think it gives you like the actual roundabout, full picture of a candidate and their abilities.

Shannon Ogborn [00:08:30]:
Right. And it's assessing things that can't. We've already chatted a little bit about this that can't necessarily be addressed in speaking to someone one on one. So again, it, like you said, creates that well rounded picture and it allows you to see different aspects of that person. Like is the person actually walking the walk or are they just able to really chat and navigate? Well, I actually see it a lot with sales because salespeople are naturally, you know, because of their role that they've been in, ability to sell and what is interviewing, but basically marketing and pitching your yourself. And so sometimes you get into those projects and you ask them to do a project, whether it be a demo or something else, and you're like, oh wow, like this person was a very good talker, but they're not a very good doer. And you in a lot of roles need both.

Hebba Youssef [00:09:25]:
I don't know when projects got a bad rap. I feel like maybe a few years ago people are like, projects are taking advantage of the candidate. I think they are. When you don't pay them, when you don't pay people and you want them to do free labor to get a job, I think that's a hard sell and a little bit taking advantage. We do pay for our projects. We say if anything takes 45 minutes to over an hour, you're getting paid to do it. I don't want to take advantage of candidates and put them in a bad spot to make them feel like. Or just asking them to produce work for nothing.

Shannon Ogborn [00:09:50]:
That and I was just talking to someone yesterday, they were talking about their experience interviewing more recently and they're like, well, I was interviewing at six SaaS companies. All of them were asking me to do these assessments and these assignments. And some of them were paying, some of them weren't, some of them were taking, said they took four hours, but they actually took 15. And so when you think about the Burden that's on the candidate. A lot of them are interviewing other places. You're not the only place that's interviewing. That's why the time bound part I think is super important because like, yes, you need to get the information you need to get and I, and that totally makes sense. But at the same time, these are humans that are operating amongst many other companies.

Hebba Youssef [00:10:32]:
It feels like just so unfair to do it. I also think four hours is a wild project, but I know a lot of engineering coding projects do take longer. It's like I really try to set hours like one hour. Because if you think about like the full candidate experience as they're interviewing with you, is your interview process taking 10 plus hours? That's. That's wild.

Shannon Ogborn [00:10:48]:
It's a lot of time.

Hebba Youssef [00:10:49]:
Yeah, that's also like a lot of money. It's a lot of people's time like internally that you're wasting. We also use projects as like a stop gap in our interview process. So they actually come a lot earlier because we at one point had them come later and we would see a candidate get all the way through our team interviews. They would get to the project and then they would not do well in the project and we'd be like, oh, wow. And so like after that happened a few times, I came back and I was like, we are spending three hours of employee time on these interviews before they even get to the project. We need to move the project way up. So now like our sweet spot we have found is like a people ops phone screen.

Hebba Youssef [00:11:23]:
The hiring manager does like a technical kind of like, do you have qualifications for this job? If they pass the hiring manager, then they get the project and we like really use the project as like, okay, the hiring managers, I kind of verbally vetted them. Now we're going to test their actual technical skills. When they do well on that, then they move on to team interviews and final.

Shannon Ogborn [00:11:40]:
There's kind of a gray area though because it's like, where do I put the project? Do I put, do I put the project sooner?

Hebba Youssef [00:11:47]:
We've had this debate so that, so.

Shannon Ogborn [00:11:48]:
That people aren't wasting. Like the problem with, I feel like a lot of candidates is, well, why am I going to do this project when I don't know that I'm far along in the process? But then like you said, you get a number of people further along in the process and then you have, you have a volume of people that are just not like not going to cut it. And so I feel like that feels worse for the candidate. Too. So I don't. It's. I think it's like a very gray area that probably honestly doesn't have a perfect answer.

Hebba Youssef [00:12:18]:
Yeah, I think it just depends on like the role. Worst case scenario, if someone does really well on team interviews, but then does terrible on the project, we probably shouldn't hire them because they don't have the technical skills. And so I always worry if we, like bury the project later, everyone's going to have a bias for the candidate because they like them so much and they're like, oh, I like them so much, I can teach them how to do this job. And yes, some things are teachable, like we said at the beginning, but some things they also need to have the skills. From day one. It's like, yeah, again, when you bury the project, I think then you're actually like hiring more on vibes than on technical skills. And I think we're always trying to find that balance. It's like, yes, we want somebody who's going to work well with our people and like, fits in with our values and our operating principles, but also they need to have these skills.

Hebba Youssef [00:12:58]:
So it's like hiring is like the sweet spot of like, how do I balance this boat correctly to make sure that this is the right person to hire?

Shannon Ogborn [00:13:05]:
I hadn't thought about it that way before, but it makes a lot of sense. Skills should definitely. It sounds so simple. Like, skills should be prioritized in the hiring process.

Hebba Youssef [00:13:15]:
It should be everything. That's the thing. It's like everyone says, like, hiring's an art, not a science. I do agree with that. I think it's like you're kind of trying to figure out it's a creative iterative process to see, like, what actually and what works well for one role doesn't necessarily work for all roles. You can't just carbon copy it. And so I think, wow, I said carbon copy, which my sister always says. And it's like, I just said that out loud now.

Hebba Youssef [00:13:35]:
It's so funny. She's going to roast me when she watches this video. But you go, sorry. She also says instead of saying CC on an email, she says, I'll carbon copy them on an email. And I'm like, we don't say that.

Shannon Ogborn [00:13:47]:
No, no. CECE is abbreviated for a reason. So if you were in someone's position where they think, yes, like doing a project, doing a take home assessment is something we want to do, how would you recommend they implement hiring projects fairly and effectively?

Hebba Youssef [00:14:08]:
Oh, okay, so I'm a rubric queen. I really Like a rubric. Also, ChatGPT can spit out a pretty good rubric for you. So I just gotta say, if, like, you're worried about building a rubric, you could just ask ChatGPT and they can build one for you. It can build one for you quickly. I like, I said they, like, it's a person. But I think, like, that's what makes a project actually fair, is you have to have a rubric because we as humans are going to score it. And you and I might score it actually differently.

Hebba Youssef [00:14:30]:
So you might be like, oh, that's a five. And I might be like, oh, that's a three. And that's like a thing with.

Shannon Ogborn [00:14:34]:
Are you saying I'm an easy grader?

Hebba Youssef [00:14:36]:
No. Maybe. I don't know. On my panel earlier this week, they were like, yeah, what if I'm an easy grader and she's a hard grader? And I'm like, I'm not an easy grader.

Shannon Ogborn [00:14:42]:
Like, what? Yeah, offensive.

Hebba Youssef [00:14:44]:
But I think that's like, a thing with performance reviews too. It's, like, impossible that you and I are going to grade someone exactly the same. But a rubric gets you as close to that as possible. So if you're thinking about a project, like, it needs to be an actual skill, the person needs to have to do the job, and then you need to be able to fairly assess it. And I also think sometimes when you're in the early stages of a project, having multiple people grade it, like, if it's something that multiple people can see just to calibrate as a group so that all of you understand what we're actually hiring for, too. So we do that quite a bit too.

Shannon Ogborn [00:15:12]:
We do that too, where multiple people grade, take home assessments, at least on the marketing team, because like you said, it can be so different between people. Not only that, but they might catch something small that I didn't catch. I might catch something small that they didn't catch. And then we have a bigger body of information to go off of when we're discussing to make a choice if we want to move the person forward or not.

Hebba Youssef [00:15:36]:
Yeah. And if you put the project early enough, you can actually vet more things on the team interview. So let's say, like, the candidate completes a project, but you're still unsure about, like, one thing that they did in the project or why. You might be able to, like, seed some questions in, like, a team interview or final interview that could help you understand the candidate even better without adding.

Shannon Ogborn [00:15:54]:
Another project, another project, another interview, another. Something that just so we also tell.

Hebba Youssef [00:15:59]:
Our candidates from the first call, this is our interview process. I also get very upset when you're halfway. I've been halfway through a process and had them be like, by the way, final stages will be a project. And I'm like, what do you. Why didn't you tell me this from the beginning? I could have managed my expectations so much better had I known. At the end of this interview process.

Shannon Ogborn [00:16:17]:
You'Re like, I'm about to get an offer. I did the on site.

Hebba Youssef [00:16:19]:
And they're like, jk, jk, take this two hour long project, also do all this free work and then tell us all your thoughts and then maybe we'll actually use it in the future.

Shannon Ogborn [00:16:27]:
Without you.

Hebba Youssef [00:16:27]:
Without you. I mean, I love projects, but I feel like they get used so terribly a lot of times and so we have to be like really strategic about them. And I've been trying to do that with my team, just helping my hiring managers understand why are we doing this. And I think when you anchor it on the why and give the context, I think more junior hiring managers will be like, okay, I understand. This is actually way better for me.

Shannon Ogborn [00:16:52]:
Right. It's the importance of the pre work though, in setting up the assignment or assessment or whatever your project, whatever you're doing before you even open the role so that you know it correlates instead of. I've definitely worked at former companies where we wouldn't have a project like set up and ready to go and then suddenly people would get to the project phase and we have no project, it is not yet created, there's no rubric. So people end up scrambling to put something together that won't assess the skills necessary. It won't help predict job performance is basically a check in the box. But a check in the box is actually the worst outcome for the company and the candidate. Because I really think that what makes a good assessment is it being something that you would actually do in the job if you were a candidate and you hate the assessment.

Hebba Youssef [00:17:46]:
Exactly.

Shannon Ogborn [00:17:47]:
You won't like the job. Or at least that's how it should be. Right.

Hebba Youssef [00:17:49]:
We had that happen recently actually, where candidate was like, I don't want this job. We were like, okay, thank you, so nice to meet you.

Shannon Ogborn [00:17:57]:
That's honestly good though. Like having a process that showcases the job transparently and accurately really allows people to self select out. And if you look at this project and you're like, this is not interesting to me at all. Why even do it?

Hebba Youssef [00:18:13]:
It needs to be something the person is actually doing day to day. And then the hiring manager used to say, like, what did you think about that project? Like, did you like it? Because that's what you're going to be doing day to day.

Shannon Ogborn [00:18:23]:
This is your job. Yeah.

Hebba Youssef [00:18:24]:
This is literally your job. The worst case would be someone being like, oh, I hated this. And then they still want the job. It's a tough job market. So I understand why people would take job. But if it's something they're doing every single day, I really like to be clear with the candidates. Like, we're not just testing you on something random. We're testing you on a core functionality of this job.

Hebba Youssef [00:18:39]:
And if you hated this project, you will hate this job.

Shannon Ogborn [00:18:41]:
Yes. Well, the other thing that we talked about, and I think why the rubrics and defining what you're testing for is so important, is a lot of people feel like they are good interviewers or feel like they are good assessors.

Hebba Youssef [00:18:54]:
They're. They're not good. But the other part, like you were talking about like getting halfway through an interview process and then being like, oh, here's a project, something we do that I'm like really proud of. And I was never to expose myself. I was never a recruiter. I was always on the talent management side. But I worked very closely with recruiting. I've like led a recruiting team.

Hebba Youssef [00:19:10]:
I manage our recruiting at work week. And I've learned some of the best stuff from like recruiting friends like you. And I think one of the things that I learned very early on was you have to kick off a role properly. So we are really intense about our hiring kickoff. It's like a three to four page document and in it we're like, what are some core skills, what are nice to haves, what are need to haves, what are profiles that you think would do this job well? Will there be a project? And we actually, after we make the hiring manager fill out this form, we actually meet with them for 15 minutes. And I ask again, is there a project or not? And if they say no, I'm like, I just want to be very clear. You are locking into a no project, like interview. You cannot add a project after this.

Hebba Youssef [00:19:47]:
And then I usually like to give them examples of projects too. Cause I'm like, here's how to think about a project. So it's really in that hiring kickoff that we set the stage. Because I have before just run wild into an interview process and it's chaos. I love chaos. I've worked at four startups. Like I live it. But like in hiring chaos is the riskiest thing because it leads to bad outcomes and bad experiences for the hiring manager and the candidate.

Shannon Ogborn [00:20:10]:
Well, and your brand reputation is on the line. It's really important to get these things right. And I think why projects have gotten such a bad rap recently is because there are a lot of companies who just aren't quite nailing it, and candidates are understandably pretty loud about it. And it makes total sense. And so when you think about all of the things that create your employer brand or your brand reputation, especially if you are like a B2C, is even more important almost. And so having a process that the candidate feels like they understand and they feel like with a hundred percent certainty, they're getting a fair shake at the outcome is hugely important. And assignments and projects are part of that.

Hebba Youssef [00:20:56]:
And also, like, it's not like we're perfect. Like, trust me, our recruiting process could use so many improvements. Like, every day I think of something new. We can improve from, like, an internal perspective and a candidate perspective. But we always tell candidates too, like, hey, we're a series a startup. We're also, like, very lean. We're learning and growing. If you have any feedback, we're happy to hear it.

Hebba Youssef [00:21:12]:
And I've had candidates reach out and say, like, here's something I really liked, or here's something I didn't like. And I think, like, our commitment to the candidate experience is really creating a space for the candidate to tell us, hey, this was awful and you need to know why. And I've had people actually share, like, very candid feedback with me without repercussion, too.

Shannon Ogborn [00:21:28]:
Because it only benefits you.

Hebba Youssef [00:21:29]:
Yeah. I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna shame some. Like, if we did not provide a good experience, which, like, it's impossible to say we're great at everything. Right. Like, there are gonna be days where we mess something up or we don't apply to a candidate or we take too long to decision, or we're navigating internal chaos, which then means we can't actually give the candidate any update other than a no update. Hey, thanks. Just wait a little bit longer and we'll have a real update for you soon.

Hebba Youssef [00:21:50]:
So I think, like, there's always that too. And if you build that rapport with your candidates early on, they're going to tell you so much about the experience and how to make it better for the future.

Shannon Ogborn [00:21:58]:
The last thing that we had talked about on this was continuous improvement. And I think that goes to the feedback piece as well.

Hebba Youssef [00:22:07]:
Yeah. Oh, God. Recruiting is like, some Days. My least favorite part of like working in people operations and HR and other days it's my most favorite thing because I think when you really do it well, it's like a life changing experience for the organization and for the candidate. And so there's a lot of like feelings involved in that too. Cause I'm like, oh my God, like we can actually hit our goals as a company if we hire these people. And then oh my God, I'm helping somebody who's maybe been laid off or unemployed for eight plus months and really just needs a job and the market is so bad they just can't get a job. There's so many like good feelings when you do it really well.

Hebba Youssef [00:22:40]:
But it has to be an iterative process because you're not. The first time you do it, you're not going to get everything right. And if you are getting everything right on your first time, for the love of God, please DM me because I need to know what you're doing. I must know what you're doing because like I feel like every time we run a process, my recruiter and I look at each other and we're like, oh God, we could do that so much better. Or here's three things we can improve on. So I think you have to always ask yourself like, what could we be doing better? Not just to improve the process or like be over intentional about like I have to fix everything all the time, but just to see like what can you do to move the needle to be better at this craft that you're honing.

Shannon Ogborn [00:23:12]:
Yeah, this is a little bit of a, a little bit of a curveball question. But on the iterative process, I feel like AI is, is really striking a chord with that because a lot of people are using AI for their assignments and projects. And I know a lot of people have seen that projects return essentially word for word, almost the same. And how do you iterate with that in mind to set you up for success so you can evaluate the person properly for their skills, but also set the candidate up for success so they know that yeah, maybe AI can be used in this way, not that way. And how can we help them be successful while also showcasing their unique value and skill.

Hebba Youssef [00:23:56]:
It's so interesting because I see no problem with the candidate using AI to help them complete a project. I think it's unrealistic that they wouldn't. Like, I truly think the first thing a candidate's gonna do is go to AI and be like, how can I do this project really well. I think the other interesting part about us specifically as a company is like, we're a content like creator led company. So our content can't just be AI generated content. So if a person is completing a project, like leveraging AI to help them, they still have to add the personal touch of like, how would this creator say this? How would HIBA say this? So like, then I think you can really differentiate between like, oh, this person just like leveraged AI versus this person just used AI to completely spit out a project. I think it's hard though. Like, it's impossible to tell unless you're running it through something that's going to check to see if it's AI.

Hebba Youssef [00:24:38]:
I don't even know if that exists.

Shannon Ogborn [00:24:40]:
I don't know. My mom had actually mentioned something about that because she's a professor.

Hebba Youssef [00:24:44]:
Yes, they do actually use that in college.

Shannon Ogborn [00:24:46]:
Yeah, in college now. Wild.

Hebba Youssef [00:24:48]:
I mean, like, can we, Are we going to use that for candidate assessments? I don't know.

Shannon Ogborn [00:24:51]:
Well, the, the thing is that what a lot of people are still trying to get to is maybe you use it for firming up your unique point of view and voice, but you don't necessarily use it for creation. Like, we still need some thing to come from you onto the paper and then how you edit that paper and make it better. That's a totally different thing than asking ChatGPT to just like putting it word for word, this assessment or project into it and then it's spitting something out. And you kind of like taking that at face value.

Hebba Youssef [00:25:28]:
Yeah, I'm actually like genuinely scared for our future. Like as a con. Sorry, as a generous. Scared for our future for a lot of reasons, but specifically about AI. Like, I create content and I very much believe in like, I think the most beautiful thing about human beings is that we are all uniquely different. And the thing that terrifies me about AI is it wants us all to sound the same. And I feel like that's so uninclusive. I'm like, I don't want to sound like Shannon and I shouldn't want to.

Hebba Youssef [00:25:53]:
I should want to sound like me. And I feel like that's the thing. I wish other candidates would understand too. Like in a project, I want to know you as a person. I want to see how you thought about this. I want to see what you're bringing to the table. Like, yes, AI can give you something, but I don't think it's going to give you the best thing. The best thing would be like, represent yourself.

Shannon Ogborn [00:26:10]:
Totally.

Hebba Youssef [00:26:11]:
That's really hard right now because Everyone is like, use AI, use AI. AI this AI. That's like. I'm like, can I come do my laundry? Like, that's what I would rather do. Like, I. I want to create my content. I don't want to do these other ridiculous things in life. But I think that's.

Hebba Youssef [00:26:24]:
That's what's getting, like, really scary too about interviewing is like, I don't think the perfect candidate out there exists. I think it's unrealistic to be like this exact perfect person with all these traits and all these skills and they're going to be perfect and looking at exactly this time within our band and have all the skills. It's unrealistic. And so I think it's unrealistic too, that all the projects would be exactly the same. But, like, that's what I. I'm scared of what's going to happen because people are all using AI and are all starting to sound the same.

Shannon Ogborn [00:26:50]:
I think that's kind of a note to candidates, though, that you're better positioned to be successful in an interview process if you are being yourself, but maybe with a little bit of tailoring from AI.

Hebba Youssef [00:27:03]:
And that's also like a privileged piece of advice, to be clear, because the market is so tough right now that I feel like some people have the luxury to be themselves and others do not because they are running out of funds to live their life. And so I have always said in my last two roles that I've interviewed during, I had a privilege of interviewing at the time and I could be myself. So in both interview processes, I was like, here's why you shouldn't hire me. And they were like, what do you mean? I was like, I want to be very clear about what I bring to the table. I'm like, I want to make change. I'm somewhat impatient, so I work best in startups. Like, here are the reasons why you really should not hire me. And I even, like, sent my last two companies my performance reviews.

Hebba Youssef [00:27:40]:
I was like, you should read what my manager says about me. Here you go. And they were like, what? And I was like, I just want. I, like, had that.

Shannon Ogborn [00:27:46]:
I just want to be. I just want to put it all out on the table because so you know, you know exactly what you're getting. And then in return, I hope I know exactly what I'm getting.

Hebba Youssef [00:27:55]:
I had the privilege of being myself, and a lot of candidates in today's environment don't totally. And that makes me really sad because I really want to meet, like, interesting, unique people who want to do this job, but like, maybe don't. Aren't the perfect. The perfect person doesn't exist. The perfect partner doesn't exist. The perfect best friend doesn't exist. The perfect CEO doesn't exist. So the perfect candidate does not exist.

Shannon Ogborn [00:28:14]:
I mean, humans are.

Hebba Youssef [00:28:15]:
Yeah. More messy.

Shannon Ogborn [00:28:17]:
Yeah, exactly. Well, last piece here. Would love to understand some of the results that you all have had from implementing projects in such a way that it enhances the candidate experience for sure.

Hebba Youssef [00:28:33]:
I think the candidates really actually like the project. We've had the feedback that they're like, this was a good project. Thank you. Cause now I know what the job is like. But I think for us, the important part about projects is in the past, when we weren't using them, we actually had worse hiring outcomes. Like, very clearly I could look at the data and be like, we made bad hiring decisions when we weren't using projects because it was like vibes based. And then when we had the projects, I feel like we're making better hiring decisions and I feel like the candidates were more excited and more equipped to do the job. We're looking at like ramp time right now too, for like our sellers.

Hebba Youssef [00:29:02]:
And we're like, how do we cut this down? Now I'm thinking, can we leverage projects to really see how somebody does on our project and correlate it to how well they ramp into the company? So I think that correlation, I don't know many people collecting that data or how you would even measure it.

Shannon Ogborn [00:29:16]:
Well, it also shows their potential gaps and then you can tailor their onboarding for that.

Hebba Youssef [00:29:21]:
That's our next step too. My CEO is really excited about that. He's like, we could put together custom onboarding plans and he could like really do this and then teach this person that, and then this person would be a little different. He gets excited about these things.

Shannon Ogborn [00:29:31]:
So it's good though, because onboarding, although especially for certain evergreen roles, the intention for it to be scaled makes total sense. But as we've said multiple times in this, every human is unique and has different needs and may have different gap areas. And that's actually better. It's better that people are good at different things, even on the same team in the same role. And so the more information you have to understand what are the gaps, the better you can fill them when they start.

Hebba Youssef [00:30:01]:
I really think projects have actually enhanced our candidate experience. Like back to your question. Because it sets the expectation accordingly. How often I've like taken a job before where they set an expectation in the interview process and the job was Completely different. And I was like, what the f did I just get into? Like, how am I ever going to be successful at this job? And I think, like, a project really sets the expectation of the candidate. One, on what the day to day of this role actually looks like, and two, what's expected of you. And that, I think, is, like, what everybody wants in life. We all just want clarity.

Hebba Youssef [00:30:31]:
We all want expectations to be clear. We want to know how to be successful somewhere. And so I do think, like, a project makes it clear to the candidate, here's what it's like to work here, and here's what it's like to work with us too. Like, they're getting a sense for who we are. Right. If our project is, like, unrealistic, we're not paying them. Taking, like, five plus hours has nothing to do with the job. I would hope that the candidate would be like, oh, they do not have their stuff together.

Shannon Ogborn [00:30:54]:
Totally.

Hebba Youssef [00:30:54]:
Like, I think that can also teach. It goes both ways. Like, that's the other thing I would love to encourage candidates to remember is, like, in an interview process, you are actually assessing the employer as well. And if any red flags go off, just be cautious of that as you are taking the job or not taking the job.

Shannon Ogborn [00:31:10]:
Agreed. Well, we talk a lot at Ashri about hiring excellence, and we got bits and pieces of it. But I would love to hear. When you hear hiring excellence, what does that mean to you?

Hebba Youssef [00:31:22]:
Mm, I sent to a dark place. It means we, like, built a process that actually led us to good outcomes. Because the. My least favorite thing is when you just build a process that has nothing to do with the outcome. And that happens all the time. Like, performance reviews. Sorry, that's. It's not about performance reviews.

Hebba Youssef [00:31:40]:
But a lot of people build performance reviews that don't actually give good outcomes. When you are hiring, if you cannot look at your process and say, this actually gave me my desired outcome, then what are you doing?

Shannon Ogborn [00:31:49]:
Period?

Hebba Youssef [00:31:49]:
Hiring excellence is like a. It's like a pipe dream. I'm like, every day I think I'm like, we're B. We're a solid B. Like, hiring excellence would be like an A to me. And I think every day I'm just trying to take steps to get us closer to it.

Shannon Ogborn [00:32:02]:
Continue some proof life.

Hebba Youssef [00:32:03]:
Yeah, you know, it's my mo.

Shannon Ogborn [00:32:05]:
It's your MO. Well, we are at our last question, and as the people know, you have a lot of hot takes, so I'd love to hear what is your recruiting hot take?

Hebba Youssef [00:32:17]:
I really don't think this is a hot take. I don't know. I'm going to say it and you tell me if I need to come up with a juicier one. But it should not take you eight stages to assess a candidate. If it is taking you eight plus hours to assess a candidate, you have a problem. That is all I will say. Maybe for executive hires it can take longer because that's like a more impact, higher compensated role. I understand that.

Hebba Youssef [00:32:40]:
But for like your average mid to entry level role or early career role, if it is taking you eight plus hours, you have a problem. Your hiring process is broken.

Shannon Ogborn [00:32:49]:
It's the analysis paralysis that is almost like a projection that people inject. And don't get me wrong, a lot of hiring managers feel like their butt is on the line for the hires and so they want to do everything.

Hebba Youssef [00:33:02]:
They can to make the best decision.

Shannon Ogborn [00:33:05]:
Make the best decision. But so many of the things that companies do are just not predictive of job performance at all. And so I feel like as talent leaders, people, ops leaders, the push and pull of that is really important to. It's our job to inform that something isn't right.

Hebba Youssef [00:33:26]:
Yeah, I mean I'm always pushing us at work week to like cut one more stage. My CEOs like, no, we're in a really good spot. Like our hiring process is not eight hours. It's a very concise process. It can wrap in like a week. But I still am like, could we get rid of one more company conversation? And he's like, no, we're like already down to like the bare amount of conversations we can possibly have. And I'm like, are you sure?

Shannon Ogborn [00:33:46]:
But if you're seeing good results from that.

Hebba Youssef [00:33:48]:
Yeah, yeah.

Shannon Ogborn [00:33:49]:
If you see good results from less, why do more? It's not the time, the money, the effort.

Hebba Youssef [00:33:56]:
No, no, we're really trying to keep it tight because I, I've been in a 8, 10, 12 hour interview process and I took the job and at the end of it I was like, I should not have taken this shot.

Shannon Ogborn [00:34:05]:
The drop off is also a really. Maybe not in this market, but the pendulum will swing back and we will, it always does. And then it will be a candidate market and people will drop out of your process left and right. Yeah, that's still have choice.

Hebba Youssef [00:34:20]:
Yeah, we don't have. So the good news too is like I look at the data of how many of our candidates actually drop out too and we have like a very low dropout, really dropout percentage right now. But I also just think it's indicative of the market too, but also, like.

Shannon Ogborn [00:34:31]:
Your process is working for you if it's concise. People feel like every interview is valuable to you. And them, they're more willing to stay in it.

Hebba Youssef [00:34:40]:
You know, they always come back and say it was good. We had someone take a. An offer recently. They joined us and they're like, hey, I thought my interview process, like, a little long. Could we like, do those 30 minute combos as like a panel? And I had to be like, hey, that's like a personal preference for you. I'm not going to change the whole interview process to just be a panel. But ours is like, pretty tight right now and I'm keeping it that way. Or like running under four hours.

Hebba Youssef [00:35:01]:
It could be less. I think around three and a half.

Shannon Ogborn [00:35:03]:
That's great.

Hebba Youssef [00:35:04]:
Yeah. But I want it to be, like, shorter.

Shannon Ogborn [00:35:06]:
Well, I will wish you luck. Won't happen. I wish you luck.

Hebba Youssef [00:35:11]:
I really think I'm in the. I found the Goldilocks. Like, you know, like, I found the exact right process right now and I'm gonna see.

Shannon Ogborn [00:35:17]:
But that's what hiring is about. You're finding a common ground and you're coming to an agreement with your executives, with your hiring manager to have a process that works for you and works for them.

Hebba Youssef [00:35:31]:
I mean, I love it. We're doing. We're doing our best. We're trying to get better every day.

Shannon Ogborn [00:35:35]:
Well, I think we are coming up on our time. Where should people go to learn more about you and your work?

Hebba Youssef [00:35:39]:
Oh, God. LinkedIn. I'm always there. Camp Chaos Queen over there. Great. You can sign up for the newsletter. It's called I hate it here. Yeah, you Google that and you can find my face on a million things.

Hebba Youssef [00:35:49]:
I'm so sorry for all of you.

Shannon Ogborn [00:35:51]:
Amazing. Well, I can't thank you enough for joining us. On offer. Accepted. Very valuable conversation, especially as the topic of projects and assignments gets even hotter. So thank you.

Hebba Youssef [00:36:04]:
Thank you for having me.

Shannon Ogborn [00:36:07]:
This episode was brought to you by Ashby. What an ATS should be a scalable, all in one tool that combines powerful analytics with your ATS scheduling source sourcing and CRM. To never miss an episode, subscribe to our newsletter at www.ashbyhq.com podcast. Thank you for listening and we'll see you next time.