Growth Systemization | Healthcare consulting growth secrets with author & consulting legend, Brian Sanderson

In this episode of Humanity Sells, hosts Brandon and Nate are joined by Brian Sanderson, a seasoned healthcare consultant, and author of 'The Patient First Revolution.' The conversation dives deep into the critical importance of healthcare, the role of patient experience in driving financial performance, and Brian's innovative approach through his DIY Consulting and Growth Systemization strategies. Brian shares valuable insights on creating a patient management organization, fostering future leaders in healthcare, and integrating marketing, sales, and delivery to drive organizational growth. If you're keen on healthcare consulting or technology and want to learn how to differentiate your business by making customers feel cared for, this episode is a must-listen.

Links:

Brian's Book - The Patient First Revolution
briansanderson.me
diyconsulting.me

00:00 Introduction and Excitement for Today's Episode

00:33 Introducing Special Guest Brian Sanderson

01:27 Brian's Background and Career Achievements

02:33 Discussing Healthcare Experiences and Challenges

04:05 The Importance of Patient Experience in Healthcare

09:42 The Concept of Patient Management Organizations

14:38 Applying Patient-Centric Approaches Beyond Healthcare

19:57 Technology's Role in Enhancing Patient Care

25:05 Brand Recognition Challenges at Healthcare Conferences

26:19 The Importance of Clarity in Messaging

30:41 DIY Consulting: Empowering Health Systems

34:57 Growth Systemization for Healthcare Tech

37:30 Integrating Marketing, Sales, and Delivery

41:47 The Human Side of Organizational Silos

47:56 Final Thoughts and Key Takeaways

Transcript

[00:00:00] Hey everybody. Welcome back to Humanity Cells. Nate and I are here and I'm, I'm super excited. Today's going to be awesome. We have a great guest. Before I introduce the guest, I'll say this, we're going to be talking about healthcare. And if you are a human being, healthcare should matter to you because at one point you were born at one point, you will not be born anymore and you will die.

But in between we all have to go to a doctor. It doesn't matter how healthy you are or how sick you are. Healthcare touches everybody. And I'm really excited, uh, to introduce Brian Sanderson. He's our special guest here. Brian has, he's really become a friend and a mentor to Nate and myself these past couple of years.

And Brian has spent his, his career in the healthcare industry, advising CFOs of some of the largest healthcare organizations in the world on all things, revenue, including how patient experience actually leads to stronger financial performance. In fact, he wrote [00:01:00] a whole book on it. This is the book. It's called the patient first revolution.

How a new era of patient management organizations is taking care of business by taking care of people. It's a great book. It's not one of those cold, uh, sterile healthcare books. This is a book with a, with a story in it. And so if you're in healthcare at all, if, if, if you were involved on the consulting side or the tech side or the practitioner side, I highly recommend this book.

It's awesome. It's fun to read and a little bit more about Brian really quick. And then we'll get into it. But after spending 15 years at crow, helping them grow their healthcare consulting practice from 2 million to over 100 million, having 2 and taking it to over past a hundred, he is now running something called DIY consulting that he started and he's helping.

Healthcare technology and consulting firms turn great products into great growth using a manufacturing like process that he calls growth systemization that we're going to talk about here in a little bit. [00:02:00] Brian lives in Chicago with his wife and four adult children, and when they're not traveling to Ireland, he's hanging with them or playing golf or helping These healthcare business leaders and, uh, according to Nate and myself, Brian is a certified human.

He cares about people and that shows up in everything that he does. Like I said, he wrote a book about it. Brian, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you very much. My pleasure to be here, especially with you two folks who I enjoy talking with professionally, personally, et cetera. It's a, it's a real thrill for me to be honest.

We're excited. I'm going to pull up a little meme here to get us cooking a little health care meme. Everybody, I mean, health care, health care is healthy, right? Everybody, everybody feels some type of way about health care. Nate's wife just delivered their second born child. I mean, Nate, how was your health care experience recently?

It was great. We were treated fantastic. Yeah, now that, now tell the truth because we are recording. No, it was good. It was really good. [00:03:00] I'll pull this up real quick because I found this meme. I thought it was really funny. Those of you listening. It says every nurse doctor and health care worker. I know early.

I chose this field to help people and then a year in the guys just people are the worst. Yeah, it's quite a challenge for these practitioners. I mean, they see. People at their best, at their worst, at their most vulnerable, most vulnerable, at their most, uh, enthusiastic, et cetera. You have to be steady through all that.

You know, all the emotion that goes with, um, um, you know, being in a healthcare setting. You know, uh, I personally have always thought that a hospital is a very blessed place. People are born there. People die there. You know, all the, uh, the agony and emotion gets experienced within those walls and now obviously outside of it.

But the, but the people that do that work, that interact with you, um, they're the ones that can turn a very traumatic experience into a very positive experience. And so I'm glad to hear that Nate had [00:04:00] a good experience with delivering a second child. It's such a joyful experience to begin with. Yeah, my wife, my wife did all the work, to be honest, I just sat on the couch and held a pillow and then once the baby arrived, they slapped you and woke you up and I wanted to ask you, you know, you you've been in this healthcare space a long time and we have a lot of listeners that are in or touch healthcare.

And this is kind of a lead off question that we we ask our guests. What, what does it mean to be a good human in the, in the world of healthcare right now? What does that mean to you? Yeah. So, um, so just to reiterate some of the stuff I just said, it's such a, an emotionally volatile experience in no other industry that I have ever experienced financial services or retail or whatever.

Do you get the emotion, uh, and humanity? That goes with a health care interaction, right? So, [00:05:00] I've always thought that that was the epicenter of what we are about as humans, uh, because you see all sides of it. You see newborns, you see people dying, uh, etc. So, to me, that's the ultimate, um, human interaction.

All that said, the, um, The way that you make people feel during that, um, uh, is, in my opinion, becoming that much more important as there are more options, as, uh, as there's more information available, there's, you know, home care, there's all these things, but people, uh, want to feel taken care of. And, uh, the, the degree to which hospitals have had healthcare organizations, even healthcare technology can enable people to have that feeling of being taken care of.

Um, to me, that's the epicenter of humanity. I feel like that is what makes you a good consultant. Um, and it's so successful because just knowing you, I feel like I can, that [00:06:00] I can just, that comes through who you are. Do you feel like that's something that you consciously bring to the table with your clients is, is like making them feel taken care of?

Is that part of your ethos? Is that part of your approach? So, uh, But at a, um, at a business level, yes, I mean, that's, that is what they're to me. That's what they're buying. When you think about consulting, you have somebody that's in a position or people that are in positions that want to achieve something that they could not do on their own.

And they're making personal decisions that this person or this firm or this group of people are going to help us achieve this. And if we do achieve this, then we can go on to do great things and it'll affect me personally, et cetera. What I've had the pleasure of, uh, of experiencing over the years, you know, over a career of almost 30 years in consulting is to see, um, some of the younger executives achieve things and get promoted, move on, move up.[00:07:00] 

be in decision making, uh, situations and have a have a stack of achievements that have led them to such personal success. And I get a lot of personal satisfaction out of that. And in fact, even when I just came back from a healthcare conference, there are a number of, um, health system CFOs that I ran into that I've known for literally 20 years.

And to see them evolve their career, grow their families, go on to achieve great things. That to me was the personal satisfaction of it all along there. I think they, they needed to have somebody take care of them. Amazing. Amazing. I'm just going to ask a quick follow up to that. Why, in my experience, that relationship that you've cultivated with your clients and peers, is the exception, not the norm.

Why do you think the business world is that way? And like, why, why do you, in your opinion, why do you feel like, um, [00:08:00] you know, your approach in connecting with people, making them feel valued, helping them grow? Why do you feel like that is the exception and not the norm in the space that we're in? Yeah, it's a great question.

Nate. I actually think it's a huge differentiator for those even with my book having having someone in your primary service or for your hospital field taking care of or that this hospital will take care of me to me. That's a differentiator because in business and healthcare and You I think we've become a very transactional, um, uh, economy, uh, industry, et cetera, and even the communications, the interactions, et cetera, very transactional.

And, uh, it's, uh, and to me, if you extract the emotion out of it, Um, it's almost like buying something online, Amazon, you don't, I don't think you, um, get the experience of, uh, of the interaction with a human to making you feel good, making you feel [00:09:00] taken care of, making you feel appreciated. And so I think the consulting industry and to a degree that healthcare technology, uh, is becoming a bit more transaction because people, executives, uh, leaders feel as though.

Uh, there's more productivity in, uh, transactional types of environments. Whereas I feel if you can add the humanity element to it, you can add the caring to the appreciation to take care of, et cetera, you are going to differentiate yourself, your organization. Um, and, and in the end, people appreciate being taken care of.

It's amazing because we have this podcast called humanity cells. You should totally be a guest on it because it'd be great. I love that. And I want to talk about this for a second. So you actually wrote a book about this and so many people want to write a book. So many people also don't have anything to say, but after spending decades in this world, you saw this need and Hey guys, it's actually focusing on the people, on the patients.

is what leads to [00:10:00] the revenue growth. Give us an overview of this book and why, why you wrote this. Sure, sure. Um, back to the transactional element here, there's a lot of pressure on the health care industry right now. A lot of margin pressure, operational pressure, cost pressure, reimbursement pressure, etc.

And what I'm seeing is a lot of health care institutions tried to become a bit more manufacturing like. Uh, you know, very defined processes and expecting a lot of productivity. And then when you talk to nurses and doctors, who are expected to increase their productivity, and by that it means spending less time with patients.

It is, for the most part, it's opposite of why they got into medicine, why they got into healthcare in the first place. So this, there's this dichotomy. What's, what's interesting to me anyway though, is that every patient, every patient wants to feel taken care of. Right. So if every patient has a desire to feel taken care of, and [00:11:00] if you built a business around answering that desire, then I think you would not have to worry about market share.

You would not have to worry about reimbursement. You would not have to worry about all these other things, because people will flock to an area where they feel taken care of. So, I think if we put a month, the only way to do that is not be cheerleaders and stand in the soapbox and say, take care of people.

And we really care about patient experience. It's actually to do something practically. And so the book talks about. creating an infrastructure called the patient management organization where you take every key department, operational finance, you know, uh, clinical, et cetera, and you zero them in on creating the best patient experience to take care of people, whether that be there, uh, before they go into the hospital, in the hospital, after the hospital, if you create that environment where someone feels taken care of, you will have their lifetime, uh, uh, medical that what I call lifetime medical [00:12:00] value.

That is, Brandon's going to come to that place. He's going to take his kids to that place, and he's going to get old at that place, but he's always going to go to that place that he feels taken care of. To me, that's an economic That, uh, hospitals are not yet completely understanding, but I think they will.

And the book itself is about creating that infrastructure. And that's amazing because it sounds like there's this beautiful intersection between like, not just the business acumen, but like humanity and the technology side of it. Can you talk about like maybe one practical way that, um, a well built PMO shows up like, like a person that maybe, um, has a medical issue?

Like how does it, how does that show up in their day to day life? So, uh, can you tell us a little bit more about what's going on with these patients? Sure. Um, so there's a, there's an emphasis these days on, uh, these chronic conditions. Um, so there's actually departments that are now focused on chronic conditions that could be diabetes.

It could be, uh, congestive heart failure could be asthma. It could be, uh, any of these things. In any [00:13:00] event, the reason that they're starting these specialties is that there are some ongoing clinical needs that would that would create a better environment for someone to stay healthy if they could just do these things.

Right. But, um, But what's missing, though, is, um, practical infrastructure to enable that to occur. And I'll give you an example in a second. Uh, so what has actually happened is people are leaving hospitals after, uh, after they receive treatment and they're not following up. Or they're seeing a doctor who's ordering, uh, uh, some medicine or whatever it is and leave the economics out of it and they're not following up.

right? There are people that are not getting the regular checkups for prostate and mammograms, things such as that. So, um, all of those things can be, uh, initiated through a patient management organization. So, so if you have some kind of clinical indication that you have, uh, that that your chance of prostate cancer or breast cancer or something like that, wouldn't it be nice To have an [00:14:00] organization that proactively reaches out to you to ensure that you get the kind of care, the tests, the mammograms, the prostate exams, and then shares the information, then gets you enrolled in something that you can proactively become healthy or healthier, etc.

Right now, the transaction is you go in, you get a test, you get a result, and then it's on you. There's no interaction with the organization. So I think if you just apply it to the chronic care. Like asthma or kidney disease or whatever it is, diabetes, et cetera. I think you'll have immediate engagement.

That's where to start chronic care. Amazing. I want to, I want to like wrap, wrap what you're saying and transport it outside of healthcare for our listeners who aren't in healthcare. I think one of the most important things that you're highlighting here is. The general experience of being a human in our modern society is that you are not taken care of.

You're at the mercy of [00:15:00] profitability for whatever. The transactional thing. Yeah. Yeah. So whether you're flying on an airplane, renting a car, trying to mail something, do your taxes, it's all way too hard. And it is not designed from the standpoint of How can I make this person feel taken care of? And so even outside of healthcare, because our whole experience of navigating through the world makes us feel not taken care of, any company, this is what Brian is saying, just to put a fine point on it, any company that prioritizes Making their customers feel taken care of, whether it be physically, if you're in healthcare or just emotionally, or in whatever situation you're in with your business, you are going to differentiate, stand out and grow because that is your perspective.

Is that a good way to sum it up, Brian? That's perfect. And in fact, I think there's a whole. Uh, there's a whole [00:16:00] ethos around that, that you would get engagement from the consumers of that. Now, just taking it into other industries. So I've traveled millions of miles in consulting, right? And I'm in all these hotels and airlines and things such as that.

Uh, frequent travelers, you know, traveled a million miles on United. First of all, that's amazing. I just got to say. That's a lot of miles. Yeah, that's a lot of time away. All that said, that the frequent traveler kinds of things that, um, that, um, that are out there that people engage with, they do it quote for the perks, right?

So they do it for points that they use and whatever it is, but there's very little in the way of making someone feel taken care of. Now there's a couple that I'll reference here and one that I'll give you an example of. So there's a really high level of United. That has its own special, uh, place in an airport, et cetera, that's very hard to reach.[00:17:00] 

But when you're in there, they take care of you. Alright, they check on your flight, they give you communications and things such as that. Wouldn't it be nice to extend that to people who are not, you know, traveling an enormous amount of time? I think you would draw people there. The one place that, so all of these things that I do.

Avis, so I'm an Avis chairman. So it's the highest level of Avis. right? Highest level of Avis, and it's the most taken care of that, that of all of these things, Hilton, of Marriott, of United, of Southwest, of all these things. Whenever I have an interaction, I feel as though someone's taking care of me. And it's so bizarre that there's so many other opportunities that you could, in all these other things that we talk about, that you could make someone feel taken care of, just by asking questions, by the way.

But, um, of all these things, only Avis. Uh, does that I think health care is starting to move in that direction because it's becoming hyper competitive by introducing technology and things such as that. So you have to do [00:18:00] something different. I just think they're not doing it fast enough. Tell us, tell us a story about something that's happened with Avis or renting a car that you're like, I just felt so taken care of when they did this.

Sure. The, um, so I rented a car. I'll just pick a city. I think I rented a car in like Peoria. And then I, um, no, I think it was Des Moines. I rented a car in Des Moines. I drove it to Peoria and I turned in at the airport. Um, and, uh, And then I got a bill for, this is like a two day rent. I got a bill for over 1, 000.

What is this? And, uh, so the, uh, so I called up the Avis chairman's, uh, desk and I said, I, I got this bill. They said, well, that's, that's because Des Moines owns the car. So they had to hire somebody to go down there to get the car and drive it back. And which I said, okay, I wasn't aware of this. And they said, we'll take care of it.

And then I never heard anything back from them other than a credit on my credit card for a [00:19:00] back to what it normally was. So it wasn't me haggling with the Des Moines airport. It wasn't me haggling with some customer service thing. It wasn't me calling American express. It wasn't me. We'll take care of it.

And it was taken care of like the bill, the bill reflected the change. It sounds like they are the Chick fil A of rental car. But it's true. You know, you hear these stories. Yeah. At least for chairman. I don't know how. It goes with the rest of, uh, whatever. But, but for all these things that I have all these miles on, and I don't always rent cars, in fact, I, it's probably less than 50 percent of the time that I travel to, I rent a car, usually Uber or taxi, whatever, but I do it more because I know that they're going to have this nice car waiting for me.

And they drive me to the, when I go to the offsite and return the car, they drive me to the airport and drop me off at the airport. They just make it easier for me. So, anyway, that's it. I would like to talk and get into the tech side [00:20:00] of things now because it's, it's connected, right? So, these things that you're talking about, patient management organization, a lot of these things, These creating situations to better take care of people, these things are enabled by technology, which you've been, you know, helping do implementation and consulting around.

What should technology companies that work in healthcare take from this whole idea of the patient management organization and putting people first? If they were smart, if technology consulting companies in healthcare were smart, they would what? Yeah, great question. The, um, the, they would what, uh, goes, goes through the health systems executive offices, right?

So, so there's two parts to, um, this level of engagement of technology to, um, to healthcare. Um, if there is [00:21:00] leadership within the health system that is not quite focused on patient management, patient experience and things such as that, it's hard for, it's hard for me to say to a healthcare technology company, Well, you really need to double down on patient experience because it's, it rings, um, hollow within the executive ranks, right?

So, so there's, there's two things that, um, that they should focus on. One is what are the goals of a health systems organization? Are they to be more efficient? Are they to be more technology advanced? Is it to decrease labor costs? Is it increased margin? Is it to, is it to integrate all the facilities?

There's a bunch of things there that they need to, uh, address from an operational perspective. But. for this patient management organization for the, uh, patients feel taken care of. At some point, each of these technologies enables an efficiency or an engagement with patients in some regard. Now they get faster information, they get better communication, they get, uh, whatever it is, there's better integration, there's more information that's at the doctor's fingertips fingertips that they can.

Uh, [00:22:00] interact with the patient more without asking the same questions over and over. There's a bunch of different things. I, I really think that the idea of, uh, increasing market share by, uh, making patients feel taken care of, and this is our role in enabling you to do that. I think you have an audience.

Now, is it the number one priority for every health system? No, but has, is it becoming that much more important every day? Absolutely. Yes. So don't make it about your tech. Make it about the patients. That will feel the care and experience on the other side of what the technology does. Yeah, right. So there's, you know, there's features and benefits, right?

You know, our tech does this, this and this, right? That's great. It's good to know what it does, but this will enable, uh, neat. to leave the hospital with the information that he knows that he needs in order to take care of his newborn. Uh, this will enable, uh, during the delivery process, [00:23:00] your physicians to see what the key parameters are to ensure that nothing faulty happens.

This will enable Your billing system to get something out accurate so that Nate doesn't get a inaccurate bill and he has to waste time away from his family trying to argue that he didn't, that they didn't get these services that she wasn't there for broken leg or something like that. So, I would focus it on with the patient, the value to the patient versus just the features.

Amazing. That's amazing. It dovetails into a question that I had for you right around this. So, you know, you, you've been consulting these companies for a really long time and simultaneously growing a tech consulting firm, you know, kind of straddling these worlds. And in the last, um, 20, 30 years, obviously growth and how to grow for these companies has changed quite a bit along with just the landscape of the business world, [00:24:00] if a, if a new way that you're putting out there of how to grow is to make people feel taken care of, to not make it about your benefits and features, but to make it about the end result.

What are some other ways that you would advise companies on how to grow in this new era? Sure. Um, there's, there's a lot, uh, in there. You probably need a whole nother episode to grow. I'll tell you a story because it, uh, it took me full circle about two weeks ago. So, um, in my career, I was, um, I had the fortune of being with a brand name organization, Northwestern Memorial Hospital.

Um, I was with, um, two, um, excellent large accounting and consulting firms, Arthur Anderson and Tillow Under and Ernst Young. So name recognition and brand recognition was never an issue for me. Uh, that said, um, I wanted to build something. So I went over to this place called Crow C R O W E. It was Crow Horwath at the [00:25:00] time.

Now it's just Crow. Um, and my, literally my first day on the job. I was walking around the halls of this conference at these, this exhibit hall of the largest healthcare financial conference in the country. Uh, healthcare, uh, it's called HFMA Annual National Institute, HFMA ANI. And I was walking around there with my name tag that said Crow.

And so many people that I knew looked at my name tag and said, what's a Crow? What, what is that? Like, what is it that you guys really do? So literally with no brand recognition. Um, so, uh, and then I was at this conference, um, just this past week, uh, two weeks ago, and I was walking around the exhibit hall and I was interacting with a bunch of these exhibit booths and things such as that.

And the lack of clarity that they have in their message, just in easy questions, like. What is it you guys do? What was amazing to me, and it would take three or four [00:26:00] questions or, uh, like, uh, what would, what differentiates you? And it was amazing. There, there's hundreds of these exhibitors, and I probably talked to, I'm not kidding you, 75 of them, and maybe two or three of them had clarity of message, and I left there thinking, okay, I understand what, what is that they do, and what makes them different.

So. When we start talking about growth and, uh, making, uh, organizations, uh, feel taken care of, it first starts with what is it that you do, clarity of your message, and what makes you different. So the CFO of Duke Health System, when I went to him early in my start at Crow, I sat across the desk from him and he said, he said, um, tell me what you're best at.

And don't tell me you're good at everything because I know you're not. Tell me what you're best at. I'll hire you for that. And he did. And from there, we did a lot of work for Duke, and it was wonderful. So, getting better at that message, as you guys know, as marketers, clarity of [00:27:00] message, brand, reputation, those kinds of things, you have to start there.

I don't know if you guys experienced that and, uh, that there's a lack of clarity in messaging with some of the folks you interact with. Well, so much that we started a podcast about it to try to help people, but I honestly didn't know that's what you were going to say, guys. We didn't pay Brian to say that, but it's fascinating that even in the world of healthcare consulting and healthcare technology, that someone who's tenured, very tenured in this area, that that's a, that's a gaping wound that you see.

I mean, that's, it's kind of astonishing. I'll tell you why I think it's a gaping wound. And just to summarize exactly what we're talking about, people not being able to say very quickly what you do and what makes you different, especially in young organizations. I think that there is this distraction called, um, the art of the possible in the market.

And you have all of this [00:28:00] opportunity in the market when you have a good idea. And there's this pressure, right? You have investors, you need to make a return, you need to grow, right? So naturally you think, Well, if I narrow down my focus and I can quickly articulate what I do and what makes me different, I might alienate a large part of my opportunity and disconnected and that's fearful for me.

So I'm just going to play it safe, quote unquote, and every interaction is going to be different. I'm going to nuance the conversation in the market, but what you end up doing is presenting as a nothing burger to the whole market, There's nothing here. You're sounding like everybody else. You think you're saying things that I want to hear, but what I want to hear is like this, the CFO of Duke health, tell me what you're really good at and what you do.

And I'll hire you for that. And I think that I think if people could, um, just get on board with the idea of focusing on an audience on a [00:29:00] market and being very clear about what you do and what makes you different. Man, they'll be off to an amazing head start as proven by your conference that you were at 100 percent agree 100 percent so our, our, our, um, we quickly came up with our, let's just call it a tagline, whatever it is, but we're the single source of truth for net revenue, and that was it.

Say that one more time. So yeah, so we're the single source of truth for net revenue. That's helpful. Yeah. So, so what I would, I'm talking to these places and I, and I asked them to tell me in seven words or less. So, and I've, and I've consulted with, uh, these organizations that want to grow and I asked them to give me seven words or less and literally 90 percent of them can't do it.

They literally can't put together seven words. The issue is that I think Nate, what, what you're saying, which is correct. As a as the audience, the person that they they're [00:30:00] talking to, that person actually wants to be able to compartmentalize what it is you do. Because there's so much distraction, right?

Okay, uh, this person's good at this, that person's good at that. When I encounter this, I can call this person and they want that kind of Rolex. But if it's, if it's vague, they don't know the mind is just, is just, doesn't, it wants, the mind wants clarity. So the degree to which these places can be clear, there's obviously other things like reputation, etc.

There are tactical elements of it, but if you're not clear on what you do, that's a tough place to start, tough way to grow. There's two things that I want to get, speaking of growth, there's two things I want to get to here before we wrap up that I think are going to be really valuable for our audience.

The first thing that I would love to talk about is this, is DIY consulting. So you've been in this world a long time, you've seen all sorts of problems and issues. Most of these healthcare organizations when they have these problems, well, they just, well, I guess I better call Deloitte and call a big consulting firm [00:31:00] to come in.

Talk about why you started DIY consulting and what is the whole ethos of the mission that you're behind there. And then after that, I want to get into the system that you've developed to help the tech companies. actually grow and do it on autopilot or do it in a system. So first DIY consulting, what, you know, what's the why behind that and why you wanted to start that?

You bet. You bet. Thank you for asking. So there's two parts of DIY consulting versus for health systems and, um, to execute on projects. We'll talk about a second. The second part, uh, is growth, which is helping professional service firms and healthcare technologies, uh, firms grow in the way that we grew at Crow using the exact same methods.

Um, that, um, which, which will work 100 percent of the time that will work, but relative DIY consulting, what I noticed in the course of my career was, um, either do consulting with somebody or to somebody. And, um, and I, I've noticed that there's a lot of, um, [00:32:00] less experienced. Uh, middle managers within health systems that have the opportunity to engage with an important project that, uh, that you remove that opportunity from them when you send it out to Deloitte.

Now, Deloitte, I have a lot of respect for. I think they're, they do fantastic work, but I think they're more on the complex, highly complex end of, uh, consulting, whereas there's a group of, um, projects, initiatives, et cetera, that are, that are also very important, but they're, you know, They may not need the heaviest, um, lift from a consulting firm that you could just use a lot of the people that, um, that are resident within your health system to execute on it.

There are seven personas that are, that exist with every project. What I've noticed is every health system has at least four of them in house. Now you need somebody to, to supplement them, you need a leader of it. You need somebody to take, take ownership of that, uh, engagement, et cetera. And that's where DIY comes in.

We can help you execute on your projects and deliver the promise rather than, uh, [00:33:00] bringing in Deloitte. Don't hire Deloitte to do something that you could do yourself. Uh, is, uh, is my ethos of that part of it. And thus far what I'm, what I'm hearing is a lot of CFOs understanding that, but they don't.

necessarily have the complete trust that it will be executed in the way that somebody else, uh, could, they could bring in and potentially blame if it doesn't go well. But, um, they're starting to warm to the idea that we need to develop the next generation of leaders and we need to give them an opportunity to execute on something that's important to our organization.

And if their revenue is struggling, then they probably don't have the money to spend on a big four firm to come in and give you seven. full time roles worth of Advice that you could do with four of those people that you already have on your own team. Is that is that right? That's exactly it brandon I can't tell you the number of times that i've talked to health systems who are frustrated with A very sharp 23 year old consultant [00:34:00] coming in and asking the difference between medicare and medicaid And having to pay an exorbitant hourly rate for somebody who doesn't understand they're very they're very good analysis very whatever but There's somebody in your health system that understands that distinction, but doesn't necessarily have the project management rigor, or the wherewithal, whatever, that a leader could help guide them to that answer.

So to pay 250, an hour for someone who is asking the difference between Medicare and Medicaid, to me that's a waste of money. So DIY Consulting is where you come in to these health systems. And you help them overcome these challenges, both themselves, you give them the tools, but you're also actually helping them with the gaps that they don't have.

Is that right? Yes, yes, we help organizations execute on projects with their people successfully. Love that. Now there's another side of the CIY consulting. There's the growth systemization side of it. [00:35:00] So all of these professional services firms companies, people, I think people look at healthcare right now and, and rightfully so, because it's never going to go away unless people stop getting sick, there's always going to be a need.

They look at healthcare and they say, there's a goldmine here. We're going to build tech around this. We're going to build, create these offerings around this. And then they get into it. And then, and then they realize this is not as easy as we thought to kind of grow a business around here. But for 15 years, you developed a system for growing.

I would love for you to talk about, would you be willing to share what that system is with our audience today? So that they have something to walk away with. Like, this is the system that I know that you're saying, I know this works a hundred percent. This system will work. Yes. Yeah. It's a complex system.

I'll take you through the, um, the major tenants of it. Um, but even in my role, when, you know, when we grew from 2 million to a hundred million, [00:36:00] And, uh, in, in my role, I interacted with a lot of health systems, you know, we had over, um, a thousand hospitals that we interacted with and we started with, you know, just a handful.

I, I think it's, uh, it was over 2000, um, um, last year. And so I, I, I was solicited by a lot of healthcare technology, uh, organizations branded who had a really great product. It really, it, it solved a particular pharmacy issue or whatever it was, it was a great product, No understanding as to how to take that into a health system environment and, uh, and, and get their attention and, you know, get some traction, et cetera.

So they would contact me and say, Hey, can you introduce this to your clients? Right? Which is not an efficient way to do things. So what they lacked is a system of growth. The system has three parts. Um, there's a marketing part, there's a sales part, there's an implementation part. All of it is growth. So we're not, we're not talking about the actual implementation of your widget in a thing, [00:37:00] but the implementation, if done correctly, gives you the opportunity to grow.

So, and very simply, I believe that marketing's role is to generate qualified leads. Sales role, uh, is to take qualified leads, nurture them to closure. Uh, implementation's role is to take closed sales, uh, deliver, uh, with excellence and create radiation or same store sales opportunities. That's how you grow.

So, um, you guys are the experts at creating qualified leads. What I've noticed in many organizations is that marketing is completely separate from sales is completely separate from delivery, right? And They all live on their own islands. Yeah, yes. And so many times. Oh, that's marketing's job or that sales responsibility, or that's, that's, we don't get involved in delivery when actually it's the integration of all of them that creates the maximum amount of growth.

There's 10 tracks, [00:38:00] 10. 10 growth tracks that need to be performed with rigor and excellence, et cetera. Excuse me, that, um, so it is a system. Um, and then on top of that, there are personas. So, um, yeah, I went through the big four environment where rain makers are the ones that made partners. I'd see you bring in all this stuff, but there aren't that many rain makers in the world.

There just aren't. It's not to say that all these other folks are, aren't valuable, they're extremely valuable. There's no way I could have achieved without some of these folks who weren't rainmakers, but were doing excellent work. So there's, in our world, there are seven, uh, Um, personas, and I'll give them to you very quickly here, um, to tell you to give you a sense as to what it's like.

There's an account executive that's responsible for radiation. There's the rainmaker. That's the face to the market. There's the client advocate that delivers really well and makes the client feel taken care of. There's a sales leader that nurture nurtures. Qualified leads. There's a marketer [00:39:00] who develops those quarterly or qualified leads.

There's a specialist who is really good at the technology that people really want to interact with to understand the technology. And there's an orchestrator that sits on top of this to make sure it's all working. In every one of those tracks that I referenced, at least two of those personas are working together.

And that's the point, uh, Brandon, you said on an island. Yeah, an island. They're not working together in gross systemization. They're required to work together because that's how you get the maximum growth. And what percentage of the technology, healthcare technology or professional service firms, businesses that you've worked with or are working with?

Do you see them siloed? And not working together. I'm going to randomly say 75%. I know that it's greater than 50%. I just, I know it is because I, they may use the words that we're working with marketing, but when I ask about the process, um, generally what occurs is there's some form of marketing, [00:40:00] good, bad, or indifferent.

And they drop, um, uh, these leads at the door of sales. Right. And so this happens more often than not. Sales grabs these leads and says. These are horrible, you know, maybe there's two or three in here. And so they, they may be follow up on some, they may be far, they do their own filtering, et cetera, and then, and then no feedback, right.

Um, um, and then once the sale is done, delivery takes over. And then, then there's no real connection to that. We, they don't make the client famous. They don't, whatever it is. So greater than 50 percent of the time, I would say it's closer to 75 percent of the time. And even in that 25 percent of the time, I don't think they're operating optimally.

Because each one of those, uh, tracks gives you the opportunity to be differentiated from your competitors just by, uh, doing that track, even the track around proposals, right? And I'll give you an example. Uh, so every proposal that I've ever done, um, now I put three [00:41:00] options, you know, I don't say the price is 75, 000.

I give them three options to foster discussion. And so often they say to me, um, Well, it's great that you give me these three because now I didn't realize I could have had this thing. Or at the very, the worst case they come back to me and they say, Hey, I don't want three. I just want the one. Okay. Well, which one do you prefer then?

It's another conversation that, that doesn't just end up with a yes or no. So you can differentiate within the growth systemization and you, and you can differentiate within your, um, uh, personas by giving everyone a role in growth. I just had a quick follow up. I love this. There's, I wish we had another hour because there's a ton to unpack in there.

But one of the things that strikes me as interesting is getting to the reasons why these three core functions, marketing, sales, and delivery are on their [00:42:00] own island to begin with. And this is the humanity sales podcast. So we're always pulling back the layers of whatever BS is floating on the surface.

And what's the real reason this is going on? It seems to me that each I love your, your confirmation or expansion on this idea. It seems to me that each function has potentially one or several of these internal pains that, that keep them isolated. Marketing's being, I don't want to seem incompetent, like I'm not contributing to the company.

So I'm going to go for lead volume, because if I can show this big number, independent of quality, I will be seen as worthy to this organization and a good investment. Sales, their livelihood is on the line because it's their commission. Okay. So they're going for the quality, which creates tension between marketing and sales and they're, they're misaligned.

And then delivery is like, I don't care where these came from. I'm just trying to make this customer feel good. And if I can do that, then I'll feel like a worthy [00:43:00] contributor to this company. Not realizing that they do themselves a favor by creating the feedback loop back into marketing and sales. Um, what do you think about that?

The human side of what causes these rifts? Wow. That's extremely well said, by the way, and extremely accurate in my experience. Nate, you should have your own podcast. I think you hit it there. So a couple of things that I've noticed, um, and unfortunately I think our workforce is, uh, the way it's evolving is not helping this.

Um, what we've noticed in hiring is that people are starting to identify, uh, most with their functional expertise. Versus their company used to be, you know, I work for Sears, right? Uh, and then, and then, uh, I work for, uh, this part of this company or whatever, now they're saying, well, I'm, uh, um, uh, I'm a marketing, um, social, [00:44:00] uh, whatever it is.

So give me, give me any functional title and that's their quote identity. They don't, a lot of them don't even tell you who they work for. Right. Um, so when you take that out of it. Um, the, um, then it's harder for them to work together because they don't have the, um, connectivity with the practice or the, uh, or whatever.

So, so I think our, our workforce is hurting this, but what I've noticed most is that there are these indicators of success that. That every department has or every person has, etc. And this is a real example. So this is a real organization. I'm about to say, but the, um, um, the, the head of marketing, uh, that person's office had awards posted all around the office of various marketing Recognitions, marketing association, uh, certificates and things [00:45:00] such as that.

So aren't we a fantastic marketing function here at this organization? Now the leads were for crap, right? But all kinds of marketing recognition, the sales. Uh, organization here, uh, just wanted to focus on the easiest sales. Give me that stuff that's going to turn over. That's gonna make the easy to sell.

I don't really care where the future of the organization is. I just want to be able to sell more. So give me something that, um, that's hot and I'll and I'll sell that and I'll make more money that way. And the delivery side of this. They just wanted to get it done and get out of there, right? There's a backlog of stuff.

Let's just get it in, get out of there, move on to the next one. And there's turnover in all three of those things, because none of them feel as though they're attached to an organization with purpose. And to some degree, maybe not as explicit as what I just described, to some degree, every organization has [00:46:00] something like that.

What Nate said, we delivered 14, 000, 14, 000 leads. We did our job. Yeah, we sold a million dollars. I hit my quota or we'd, uh, we implemented three software packages, but nothing in there is that, you know, we grew the organization 42 percent last year because that's sales job or no, that's no, that's marketing job.

No, that's if we could just deliver more, if we could just implement more, we would grow faster. That's really delivery's job, but it's not, it's everybody's. Seems like that's a core principle for growth systemization is getting everybody focused on the bigger goals, looking beyond their own function, looking to the larger organization and their contribution is that is that accurate.

Yes. And so let's flip that just a little bit because Because here's some secret sauce, um, that there's another part of growth systemization that involves atomic [00:47:00] habits, which are very important, um, to, to do things consistently and well, that, uh, that contribute to growth. But those seven personas that I referenced, here was the fear, at least in professional services, like, okay, if you're not a rainmaker, you're not going to make partner in this firm, you're not going to make the highest level of whatever.

So, uh, we threw that out. So every one of the personas that, uh, that I referenced every one of them has a partner in it. So if you're a specialist, you can get to the highest level of our organization. If you're a marketer, you can get to the highest level in our organization. So what it does, it creates opportunity for them to achieve.

in an area that they, um, that they do really well. So the secret to management in a growth organization is find out what someone does well and ask them to do that. And don't ask them to do something they don't do well. If you can get everybody pointed that way, then you're going to grow. That's Like Nate said, I feel like we'll have to do [00:48:00] another episode at some point.

Brian, this is amazing for all of the healthcare technology, professional services firms that want, that are listening and going growth systemization sounds like something I need. Where can I learn more? Where should they go to connect with you? Yeah. So I'd like to have the conversation. I mean, back to the transactional element of this.

I'd like to have a conversation about growth because just getting information or filling out a form or getting, you know, I've put growth systemization onto this big blow up chart, etc. It's overwhelming. Whereas you can get to, uh, you can, I think you can get a lot deeper in a short conversation. And that short conversation can be, um, uh, coordinated by just going out to my website.

It's either DIY, but I. Uh, consulting dot me or brian sanderson dot me. There's an opportunity for you to schedule an appointment with me 15 minutes. We can figure out where the focus should be for growth. Um, that's how quickly it can happen. [00:49:00] Awesome. This has been amazing. I'm going to put some links in the show notes.

Like I said, we're going to link to Brian's book in the show notes. For those of you listening or watching, you'll be able to go and see where you can get that on Amazon. We're going to put links to his websites that he talked about here. And, uh, I may even see if Brian will let us put a link to his gross systemization placemat that he has created that we have seen where people can just get a download of all of those personas and all of the steps of gross systemization to get the conversation started.

Um, I'll, I'll, I'll see if Brian gives us permission for that. We'll see. We'll have to ask him offline, but, uh, check the notes and, uh, in the description, there's going to be links in there for you. And Brian, what's the one thing that you would love. people to go, to go away with today. The number one thing for people in the healthcare space.

Sure. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you two things. It's one thing for each side of my organization. One is, uh, [00:50:00] develop the future leaders that are going to, um, they're going to take our health system, um, uh, businesses into the future, uh, by giving them the opportunity to do important work. Um, and the, the second thing is, you know, Uh, as soon as you put a system of growth in place, uh, you will remove the reliance on purely talented people that are fewer and fewer.

And the system works better than just a few talented people that may come in and out of your organization.

Ladies and gentlemen, there you have it. Thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of Humanity Sells. Make sure you tell your friends. And healthcare and technology and healthcare consulting about this episode. This is one they're going to want to listen to Brian. Thanks for being on my pleasure.

Thanks gentlemen.