#9: The Hotseat... A Fresh Perspective on Ultramarathon DNFs, and we talk about 10km pacing!

Ever faced a DNF in an ultramarathon? You know the sinking feeling, the disappointment, the sense of failure? Well, we're here to tell you it's not! Join us as we reveal how DNFs, far from being career-enders, are often stepping stones on the road to success. We'll share our personal tales of DNFs - from poor shoe choices to unanticipated terrain - and how these experiences have shaped us as runners. Particularly, we'll reflect on Nick's recent 'Did Not Finish' and how it was just a stepping stone that led him to a victory just a month later.

Switching tracks, have you ever wondered how to tackle a 10K race efficiently? 

Our discussion takes you through how to handle the first mile, to check your form at the halfway mark, and conserve energy for a solid finish. Remember, it's not just about how you start, but also how you finish. So, lace up your running shoes, and let's explore the exciting world of ultramarathons and 10K races together!

Thanks for being part of our running community. Keep clocking those miles, keep pushing your limits, and above all, keep finding joy in the run. See you on the next episode of Maximum Mileage Running Podcast!

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

All right, everybody, welcome to the monthly hot seat with myself. Faye can't make it today because she's with a friend that she hasn't seen in 10 years. He's over from New Zealand, so they're having a nice, nice, nice chin wag and a beer. And, speaking of beer, I'm actually having one myself. Why not? It's? It is a Thursday, after all. Thursday is the new Friday, and I'm sat in my camper van because I thought the acoustics would be awesome here, because it's all soft furnishings in here. So, yeah, I'm in my camper van and I've got a really good Wi-Fi signal because the Wi-Fi is just inside the house there. Anyway, I hope you're all doing well. Thank you for joining and I will kick things off with I do want, nick, I'm going to, I'm going to.

Speaker 1: 0:48

I wanted to talk about DNFs today. Perfect timing, yes, and and I wanted to talk about it because it is it's something that a lot of people are afraid to do. Now in the half marathon marathon world it's a much, much rarer occurrence, but in the ultra marathon world it is, it is part and parcel of the game. It's very rare that you meet an ultra, ultra runner who has at least done, you know, a few ultra-mathens that hasn't DNFed. So I want to talk about them because you know they. They can be something that people are afraid of. They don't. You know, nobody wants to DNF, but they are part and parcel of the learning process and it isn't something that, whilst at the time it can almost feel like the arse of your life has fallen out with disappointment.

Speaker 1: 1:47

Because of you know, because of it, and I, I DNFed twice last year myself. One I DNFed at 14 miles. You know, at the time, absolutely distraught by the whole thing, I was pretty annoyed. It was just a poor shoe choice. The arches of the shoes I was running in were digging into me and I just couldn't, couldn't run on them anymore. So nothing, nothing major. And another one I was in the lead pack and we were pushing the pace a little bit and I slipped on a route and took a bit of a tumble and my right pinky finger on my right hand was as I started running off. It was like to the side, sticking out. I was like, oh, that's not supposed to happen, popped it back in and that wasn't the problem. And then I realized, a couple of, a couple of miles in, actually, I'd taken a pretty hard hit on my hip and and me and I just, I just couldn't keep going. So so, you know, we do DNF and then, do you know what? A month later, I won an ultramanathon.

Speaker 1: 2:57

So you know it isn't the be all and end all of an ultra, ultra runners career and it is part of the learning process. One of the biggest things with running an ultramanathon is actually it's much less, you know, like the marathon and half marathons where it's a lot about pace and running efficiently and form and all that kind of stuff. That sort of stuff is important in ultramanathons, but actually it's. The success of an ultramanathon is about reducing the amount of things that can go wrong, because there is so many opportunities for things to go on. So some of those things, like you experienced on the weekend, nick, you can't control. Like you know, you can't. You can't control picking an ultramanathon that would normally be dry. In fact you were. You know we were expecting it to be pretty hot weather with you and it turned out to be a six hour deluge of torrential, torrential rain. You know, it was totally unexpected really, wasn't it?

Speaker 2: 4:01

Yeah, it was supposed to rain at all and it came out of nowhere. Did I send you pictures of what the trail ended up being like from the rain? You did, yeah.

Speaker 1: 4:11

It was like. That is the kind. Those pictures you sent me were the kind of trails we experienced here in the autumn, winter and early spring in the UK, where it's super muddy and boggy. Yeah, this was the general the campaign we've been experiencing all this time. Just a ping and a dream, you just want to be running for 100 miles in a house.

Speaker 1: 4:36

So yeah, it's so yeah, running in, running in ultimatum is about reducing the amount of things that can go wrong and without those DNFs for our future races sometimes we don't get to learn what things can go wrong and some of my best races, which have been recently have come out of, have come out of those DNF opportunities they call them. They are. They aren't something that we want to do, but we learn so much from them. I've learned so much from those couple of DNFs I've had here, particularly with shoe choice. That is just something you don't want to get wrong in an ultimatum and I did it. So now I'm absolutely I'm so amel about, about my shoe choice going into an ultimatum is that you know, if something anything small doesn't feel right about a shoe, I just will not wear it for an ultimatum.

Speaker 1: 5:37

So yeah, really, my sort of message here is not to be, not to be too disappointed about a DNF. You know, in an ultimatum, certainly don't don't come away from it thinking, oh, I'm not going to do any ultimatums ever again, ever again because a DNF. You know everybody thinks I'm a joke, because really people don't and I say it's, it is a great opportunity to actually learn from it for your future races. So yeah, the messages don't don't let DNFs get you down too much. Now I know you, nick. You weren't disappointed at all, really, were you?

Speaker 2: 6:14

No, it's so. This is my first DNF, but as far as the ultramarathon, where I've only done a 50, 50 miler and this was 100 miler I've done a couple Ironmans last year that I didn't DNF and I always thought me being like the stubborn macho guy I guess I am, I was, would be very like very, very, very angry. And I wasn't. I mean, it was the exact opposite. I was content, I was happy with how far I made it. I made it to mile 89.

Speaker 1: 6:46

Yeah, exactly, you didn't. It's not exactly like you got some old tandem and like oh come on, you really put everything into it, didn't you?

Speaker 2: 6:53

Yeah, I was very content in that I gave it, I truly gave it everything I had mentally, physically. I know I could not have went one more step and I just I mean, that was my brink and that's what I wanted, whether it was, I mean I hit my finish line, whether that was 100 miles or whatever, but for me it was 89 miles that day and I was very happy with my performance and how far I made it.

Speaker 1: 7:23

Yeah, do you know what? This is the thing, since we sort of you know for the people listening on the podcast later. No, you know you didn't make it to the 100 miles but the DNF rate in that in your race was way over 50% and all the DNFs you were way up there. I mean, you know some people there were a lot of people that drop an hour. You know 10, 20, 30 miles in those first six hours, just like nah, I don't fancy that.

Speaker 2: 7:53

Yeah, we I added it up after the race was over and all the results were in it was a 54% DNF. I mean it wasn't a small pack. There was, I think it was 284 people that did the 100 miler. It was 54% of those. It was a big finish. Yeah, so it's not like it was, you know, a 20 or 30 person race and it was 50% of that it was. I mean, people were dropping like flies.

Speaker 1: 8:20

Yeah, yeah it was. I'm not surprised. Just again, I couldn't. I couldn't paint a picture enough with my words to say how bad those photographs were, that you said what you were running, because it was. It was just 100 miles worth of bog, mm hmm, on a course that you purposely chose because it was supposed to be fast and unrunnable.

Speaker 1: 8:45

It just couldn't have turned out any any more opposite to what you were, what you were looking for, so, but now we we were talking the other day that you come out this way so obviously we'll give you a few days to get back on your feet and feel a little bit better and we'll start looking at challenges, challenges again. I'm sure you've already started looking at me knowing you.

Speaker 2: 9:11

Yeah, I was doing that on the drive home from my DNA.

Speaker 1: 9:16

There you go, there you go, cool. So so that's it, dns. They're not. They're not that bad, they really aren't. It might feel like your world has ended there and then at the time, but they're really not that bad, cool.

Speaker 1: 9:30

So going right to the other end of the distance and racing spectrum, andy, who is on the call right now, but he is actually listening while he runs. So he sent me a text ahead of time and he asked me because he's got a 10 K race on the weekend and it is first race of that kind since he did Race to the Stones, which is a very popular ultra marathon here in the UK. It's 100 K, it's a ballot system yeah, really big race. And he only did that a few weeks ago. And so I'm chaining his attention to marathons in the in the spring, where he wants to see how fast he can go over the marathon distance on the road. One of the first things that we started doing is really start working on his baseline pace, and the 10 K race he's got this weekend is all about seeing how, how quick he is at the moment, so we can set his pace aims and his get ready sort of dialed in onto his training. So he asks how would you pace the 10 K? And a little bit like a five K. So you know, you all know that I like giving you five Ks to test how fast you're running.

Speaker 1: 10:47

At the moment, the way I personally run a 10 K and a five K is to go out in the first mile or so hard you don't want to be going out. You're going to be going out too easy when you're trying to race a 10 K. But don't go out mental fast. You know, don't try and break your one mile PB in the first mile. You need to build into that first mile. Get yourself up to a place by the end of the first first mile where you are working hard but you're what I call comfortably uncomfortable. You're right at the top end of your threshold. So settle into that sort of comfortably uncomfortable zone. Get yourself to halfway. Assess how you're feeling. Are you still feeling comfortably uncomfortable? If it's too uncomfortable, then you've pushed it a little bit too hard.

Speaker 1: 11:45

But 10Ks are hard distances, particularly, andy, being the fact that you've just done an ultra marathon. Not many ultra runners like running hard. So you will find it uncomfortable. It will be territory that is going to be like, oh God, this is not something I've experienced a lot of, but my advice is when you get to that halfway point you assess where you are. It will start to burn.

Speaker 1: 12:14

But my advice for the last half of the race is to hang on for dear life. That's how I run at 10K, because they are hard. There is so much intensity in such a short space of time. Hang on for that last three mile, particularly the last mile. But the key thing is that if you have built nicely into that first mile, you've got to that first mile conservatively. What you should have is something left in the tank for a little kick at the end.

Speaker 1: 12:51

And that's what you see the pros do. You see Mo Farah? He was amazing at it, one of the best middle distance runners of all time. His 10K kick at the end was so good and it was because of that, saving just a little bit at the start, building nicely into that first mile, but he had a little bit left in the tank just to push it on and finish strong. So that is how I would pace a 10K start off nice and conservatively, building to the first mile, get yourself to a place where you're comfortably uncomfortable and then at around halfway, quick assessment how am I feeling, where am I at? How's my form? If you feel like your form's dipping, pick yourself back up, but stay nice and relaxed A relaxed runner is a faster runner and push for that last half of the race. It will hurt, it will suck. Just hang on for dear life. All right.

Speaker 3: 13:46

Hopefully that helps what I found, nick, because I've never had it risked 10K until recently it was the hardness of the 5K, but you've got time to settle into it, so you've almost got that If it's nicer than a 10K, and that respect 5K and that respect because you can sort of breathe into it almost. But yeah, hard, no 100%.

Speaker 1: 14:16

So, like with a 5K, my advice is to where I say in the 10K, to build into that first mile with a 5K, build into the first half a mile because you don't want to spend too long building into a 5K, because otherwise you've done half the race before You've got up to a pretty hard pace. So that first half a mile is let all the fast lot go bombing off, because you'll probably overtake them halfway because they've all gone off too fast. But yeah, no, you're right, you do get a little bit more opportunity to build into it. Actually, just looking back on your question here, andy, would you start off easy and build into it, or would you break it down into sections? Well, yeah, pretty much what I just said start off easy, build into that first mile, get yourself up to halfway. That's your second section, and then the last half of the race is hanging on.

Speaker 1: 15:19

You also ask about fueling strategies for the full, shorter but faster stuff. Now, because you've given me half a mile, you definitely don't need to be car-bloading for a 10k, unless you are a 10k runner. That's sort of getting into the realms of running an hour and a half at full whack, but for most people you shouldn't need to do any sort of car-bloading for a 10k. What I would say, though, is the day before the race is to make sure that the carbs that you are eating are things like white rice, white bread, that simple broken down carbohydrate. Feel free to add in chocolate sweets, that kind of stuff, stuff that's going to saturate your glycogen store, and then, on the day of the race, your normal breakfast. Whatever you have again, you know, trunkey factor, something a little bit more simple, like frosties, or what have you got in the US? That's sugary cereal. It's all sugary cereal, right, nick? You're on mute again. Dude, You're on mute. Fruit loops right.

Speaker 2: 16:45

Our food supply, I think, is all processed garbage compared to you guys. Anything you grab would be sugary junk, yeah.

Speaker 1: 16:55

I don't know. I grabbed a box of frosties today and cocoa pops. It's my nutritious, so I'm going to get on the podcast because he's awesome, steve Winrow. He's also working with Steve Shaw, who I coach as well, and Steve is feeling pretty awesome. He's a big fan of frosties.

Speaker 1: 17:16

So if frosties is something that you can handle on the morning of a race, it's pure sugar. Pure sugar. They are frosted iced flakes. So yeah, and then, right before the race, what I tend to have is either something fairly sugary snack or banana is pretty good if you want something in the realms of being healthy.

Speaker 1: 17:44

But what we want to be thinking about within that immediacy of the race is performance. You know, of course we all need to be healthy, eating whole grains and plenty of fresh fruit and vegetables in general, but around the time of a race, we really need to turn our attention towards performance and you particularly don't want to be running something like a hard 10K half marathon, even marathon, even ultra marathon, with a bunch of fiber in your stomach. It's just going to be really uncomfortable. And again, here we go. Very typical of the maximum mileage monthly hot seat. I'm going to talk about poop, because that is the kind of thing that can happen. You can get really uncomfortable in your stomach if you've got too much fiber in there. So keep it something really simple, something like a 10K. I'll have a gel literally 20 minutes before the race. Get that gel in me, make sure my glycosyls and stores are absolutely as high as they can possibly be. It's also just a little bit of a psychological boost as well for me and, yeah, I'll go and run it hard and empty the tank on the race.

Speaker 1: 19:00

That is a fairly similar scenario to how I fuel my training sessions as well, my hard training sessions. So my typical Tuesday and Thursday or Friday hard sessions where I'm doing interval work, speed work, that kind of stuff. In the couple of meals before that session I'll switch my attention from eating super healthy, where I'm having all my whole grains and fresh fruit and vegetables and that kind of thing, to focus in much more on performance. So instead of having whole grain rice, I'll have white rice, for example, instead of having whole grain wraps, I'll have white wraps. I'll have a sugary drink or a sugary snack of some kind before that session. So as I go into that session, my glycosyls and stores are up and I can focus massively on performance and then most of the time I'll then refuel after the session with a high carb meal of some kind. So hopefully that helps as well.

Speaker 1: 20:15

Andy, any questions from anybody on the call before we wrap up and this is going to be a fairly short one today, because the last two years of the monthly hot seat I actually cancelled the August ones because it's the school holidays here in the UK and everybody's away. So any questions at all, rach.

Speaker 3: 20:44

No, nothing from me. Thank you very much.

Speaker 1: 20:47

Cool, all right. Well, I will wrap that up today. A short episode, but hopefully there's some nuggets in there for everybody and thank you very much for joining.