#14: Rick Prince - Raising the Bar in Educating Running Coaches

Ever wondered why there's such a vast range of coaching knowledge in the fitness industry? Our guest, Rick Prince, founder of United Endurance Sports Coaching Academy (UESCA), unwraps this mystery. With 20 years in the fitness industry and a strong grounding in kinesiology, Rick has experienced first-hand how the lack of regulation in the industry results in a broad spectrum of skills and knowledge. He's determined to change that with the creation of UESCA, a science and evidence-based education and certification provioder that bridges the gap between education and sports.

In the ever-evolving field of endurance coaching, one size does not fit all. This episode will enlighten you on the varying levels of coaching certification in the UK, the importance of insurance coverage when coaching athletes, and how to select the best policies to suit specific activities and the needs of coaches. You'll also get to meet the impressive team that Rick has assembled for the UESCA courses, including renowned experts like Jason Koop, Dr Justin Ross, Nell Rojas, Dr Matt Hansen, Dr Chris Myers, and Dr Corrine Malcolm. They uniquely blend a science-based approach with an openness to individual coaching needs, offering a well-rounded coaching education.

We will also discuss the advantages of having a Facebook Coaches Group and the importance of shared knowledge amongst coaches. Rick emphasizes the value a UESCA-certified coach brings and the benefits of being part of the UESCA coaches group.

Additionally and most importantly, we'll explore what it means to find the right coach for you, one who understands your unique needs, has the right knowledge and skills, and fits well with your personality.

So, whether you're a coach, an athlete, or simply interested in the world of endurance sports, buckle up for this episode loaded with valuable insights.

You can find out more about UESCA here https://uesca.com/

And if you would like a Certified UESCA Running Coach then give Nick a shout, or you can find many other UESCA coaches via the UESCA Coach Directory (I love supporting other coaches too!)

Thanks for being part of our running community. Keep clocking those miles, keep pushing your limits, and above all, keep finding joy in the run. See you on the next episode of Maximum Mileage Running Podcast!

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:04

Okay, everybody, welcome back to another episode of the Maximum Mileage Running podcast. Today, we are going to be diving into the world of running coaching and why it matters to you as a runner, and I'm really delighted to be able to invite on the show. Joining me is Rick Prince, who is the founder of USCA, which stands for the United Endurance Sports Coaching Academy, and he is here to share why working with a USCA certified coach like myself could be a game changer for your running performance. Rick, welcome to the show.

Speaker 2: 0:40

Yeah, thanks for having me Excited to be here.

Speaker 1: 0:42

Yeah, no, thank you very much. And, as I was explaining to Rick before the episode started, I'm really keen to get people to understand a little bit more about USCA because you know, in the UK particularly, you've got UK Athletics, which is great. You know I'm a UK Athletic certified coach, but I'm really proud. You know I'm proud of that. But I'm really proud to say that I'm a USCA qualified coach because in my mind, the bar has been risen by you guys. You know I just love the content of the course. It's super up to date, it's really applicable to the application, to what we can do with our athletes. And I get many people asking me you know what is USCA? You say you're a USCA qualified coach, but what is it? And I love talking about it, but I wanted to bring you on so you could tell the good people of the UK and anybody else who's listening a little bit more about it. So, yeah, rick, thank you for having for coming on. Yeah, of course, before we dive into all that, tell us a little about yourself.

Speaker 2: 1:49

So yeah, so I am new I shouldn't say new, I've been out here. I moved to Colorado about five years ago. I lived the previous years, about 20 years, in New York City. I have a bachelor's degree in kinesiology, which is essentially the study of movement kind of biomechanics type stuff. Didn't quite know what I wanted to do after I got out of college and ended up ended up sort of in the fitness industry for about 20 years Again, mostly living in New York City. I worked as a personal trainer that entire time as well, as I got into managing health clubs as well, both commercial and corporate health clubs, and at the same time I was also doing some cycle coaching and all that kind of stuff and yeah, so that's a little background of myself and sort of my background educationally and work wise. Yeah, I've held many certifications over the years in the fitness industry and I just felt like there was a need for something a little bit more.

Speaker 2: 2:51

The fitness industry is very similar to the coaching industry, at least in the United States, and the fact that it's completely unregulated.

Speaker 2: 2:59

It's not like a lawyer or a doctor or even like a plumber, where you have to have a license or a degree or whatever to be able to practice. So, as a result, you get this wide spectrum of knowledge out there From incredible coaches, incredible personal trainers, to terrible coaches and terrible personal trainers and everything in between, and while that's probably largely the case in any profession, I think it's really exaggerated in the coaching and personal training industries due to that lack of regulation and things like that. So the goal for me was sort of combining my education, my degree in kinesiology, with my sport background. I used to race bikes a lot growing up. I ran cross country and track in college. So the goal was to combine all that knowledge and create a certification that was very strong in science, very strong in evidence based, and not to say that once you're a US certified coach again, you're the world's best coach because that's you know, it's a coach to become a career?

Speaker 2: 4:03

Oh for sure. Yeah, it's an ongoing process, but my goal was just to provide knowledge to coaches, so that sort of what you alluded to, so that we could raise the bar a little bit as far as what the standards were that a coach would understand, primarily that they understand how the body works physiology, biomechanics, you know all that kind of stuff and then be able to apply that on an individual basis for each runner, triathletes, cyclists or two or whatever their coaching. So yeah, so that's a little bit of background about me. Like I said, my endurance, sports background, you know, degree in this field and primarily a fitness background, and sort of smashed all that together to create USCA.

Speaker 1: 4:44

Yeah, Great work, and I mean the thing that you've alluded to it, that science-based model that you guys work to and you ask isn't just you, you work with some great people. I mean, you've got your right-hand woman, Cindy, who does some great stuff in there.

Speaker 2: 5:03

Yeah, she's amazing.

Speaker 1: 5:03

Yeah, she's awesome. I love Cindy.

Speaker 2: 5:05

She's the brains of this operation.

Speaker 1: 5:10

You work with the likes of Jason King talking about the ultra-running world. Tell us a little bit more about who else you've got contributing to the various different certifications, what the certifications are in US, yeah so yeah, I appreciate that question.

Speaker 2: 5:26

Yeah, so we have five different certifications. Right now. We have the running, ultra-running, cycling, triathlon, and we recently just did a nutrition certification as well. Not that you're going to be a nutritionist or a dietitian when you're done, but it's a very in-depth look at nutrition, a lot of the science as it applies to working with endurance athletes. So that was done with Bob Sieberhard, who was a sports dietitian who works with a lot of national governing bodies. He trains a lot of Olympians, all that kind of stuff, to answer your question. So when I first started USCA, it was just me, it was very much of a side gig while I was still working as a personal trainer. The triathlon one is the first one we did. So I spent months and months just delving into all the peer review articles online from PubMed, plls1 to get real research to create those certifications.

Speaker 1: 6:15

So lots of work on your own kudos to you, man.

Speaker 2: 6:20

Yeah, I still have nightmares from that, I think. But as we progressed, what we've done is we've decided that ourselves myself, cindy and whatever else we're not going to create any of the content ourselves unless it's directly in our wheelhouse, something say, sports, strength conditioning or personal training based. So our goal is to seek out the absolute best people for each area that we're going to provide content in. So, for example, I'll just list the cycling certification that we did. So we have. We got the. Are you familiar with Cannondale bicycles?

Speaker 1: 6:58

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 7:00

So we had 13,.

Speaker 1: 7:01

I think was their marquee one until quite recently, yeah.

Speaker 2: 7:05

Yeah, now they have some like super six and all that stuff. So, yeah, we reached out to Dr Nathan Berry, who is a PhD in aerodynamics. He's their head aerodynamics guy, so he provided the aerodynamics, the drafting section. You know what role does a bike and equipment play in aerodynamics? I think she's a three or four time national champion in Cycle Cross In the US. Here, meredith Miller, ashton Lambie, we reached out to Graf O'Reville. We reached out to some of the coaches for the US national cycling team for content.

Speaker 1: 7:40

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 7:41

Yeah, dr Justin Ross, sports psychologist for the psychology section. So it's just sort of an example of we. We sort of our process to do this is we look at all the different modules, we want to create all the different topics, and then we do a lot of due diligence, a lot of vetting, to say, okay, who would be the best person to create this content? Because you know, the reality is, you know you're spending money on one of our products, you're going to spend a lot of time studying, you deserve to have the absolute best content. It shouldn't just be from like all the chapters are done by me, you know and what I think, and that's.

Speaker 2: 8:15

I think that's another distinction, is it? A lot of the certifications out there are done by individuals. Some of the other are competitors and there's nothing wrong with that per se. But you know, it's sort of that end of one right. It's like that's their, their writing about their own personal philosophy, their own personal experience, and it may work for you, it may not. But we're saying, look, we're just going to find the experts and stay out of the way, let them do their thing.

Speaker 1: 8:40

I think the the other thing that struck me about you know what you guys are doing at US, because everything is so up to date and not to not wanting to, you know, beat down UK athletics for their content was so out of date. I remember sitting in the course going we know that's not right anymore. You know when you're going to have content and you know not to say that UK athletics is bad, because there was plenty of really good stuff. Actually, how to be a coach was fantastic, but some of the science was was pretty out to date. So I think that's one of the things I love about you guys is that you're constantly updating your material based on, you know the, the meta analysis that are coming out and you know and whatever studies are there to back up you know the content of the course. So, on that subject, how, how do you, how do you help coaches to apply that science? Because there are so many coaches out there that say I'm science-based and actually the application of that is where the art comes in.

Speaker 1: 9:49

So how are you guys helping coaches to apply that science into the art?

Speaker 2: 9:56

Well, again, another good question. So the first few modules of every certification is that science-based stuff that you're talking about Anatomy, physiology, biomechanics, all that sort of stuff. Then from then on, it goes in pretty much to your point the application of it, whether it be gate analysis, how to create a running program, injury and illness, sports psychology. I think the thing that's unique about U of S is that this is one thing that we get a lot of. I don't want to say hate mail about, but the things that people are a little upset about is we don't provide training programs, because I think a lot of people, when they come into a certification, they expect there to be a bunch of pages like okay, give this to your athletes if they're training for a 5K or 10K or half marathon. In the reality is everybody responds to the same training stimuli in a different way. It's not. You have no idea what your athlete schedule might be or whatever. So while training templates are fine to use as a reference point, they're not something that should be just randomly rolled out to everybody. So I think that's one of the other differences. So to your point about the application is we teach the science, then we teach all these different areas, just give them all the information. Then we basically say look, it's up to you to take all this information that you've learned and apply it on an individual basis to your athletes, to your clients, I would say.

Speaker 2: 11:23

The other distinction is I'm not quite sure how UK athletics is. This is how it works for the United States, with our governing bodies and a lot of other certifications. There's the levels of certification. So your level one coach, your level two, your level three. It's something that personally, I've never really understood, because to me, if I'm going to pay money to hire a coach, I want the best possible coach. I want that person knowing everything, for lack of a better word. I don't want them to just be this entry-level coach, even if they might cost a little bit less.

Speaker 2: 11:52

So we don't have levels of certifications. Ours are just one very comprehensive certification. The way how we view that is that you're pretty much again, you're not going to be the world's best coach right out of the gate, but you're going to have all the requisite knowledge to be able to work with individuals. Now we have these specialization programs. So let's say you take the running course. One of the things we're working on right now is the running gate analysis specialization course. You can pick the different areas that you want to learn more about with these specialization courses, instead of being like I got to go up to a level two coach now yeah, that's the other. I would say sort of distinction that ours versus a lot of others that have sort of those different levels or tiers associated with them.

Speaker 1: 12:37

Yeah, in the UK there are various different levels. I went through the LERF, curf roots, which is the leader in running fitness, which basically means that you can take people on a group run, and then coaching running fitness, which is being able to actually coach and be insured to coach people as well, which is another, I think, really important point. That again for those people listening, that that is really important. You are doing something that is a physiological activity and there are risks with that.

Speaker 1: 13:09

And if your coach is not insured, then you might find yourself in trouble. So be really careful with that.

Speaker 2: 13:15

Yeah, for sure. And on that note, one of the things I advise coaches here in the US is making sure the policy is very specific. So, for example, some policies here. Let's say, if you're a cycling coach, it might only cover indoor cycling, like spin classes. It might not actually cover outdoor running or running the. It might cover outdoor running on pavement but not on trails. So it's very specific. You definitely want to speak to an insurance provider that can advise you on exactly what you're going to be doing with your athletes and then finding a policy to match. What we typically advise here is a $1 million per occurrence policy. It is what we advise in the United States here, and usually you can get a policy like that for between like $100 to $300 USD annually.

Speaker 1: 14:05

Yeah, who else have you got that's been doing the content for the courses. So I mentioned Jason Koop and, for those listening, jason is widely regarded as, I guess, the goat when it comes to ultra running coaching. I listened to his podcast, quick Podcast. So who else have you got? You mentioned Bob Bob's sea, behalf of the running institution.

Speaker 2: 14:29

Yeah, bob Bob for nutrition. We have Dr Justin Ross, who is a clinical sports psychologist. He's based here in Denver. He's also an ultra athlete and himself does it to the Leadville 100 mountain bike route mountain bike race For the running. We have Nell Rojas. She is, she has a degree in exercise science. She's a coach. She's also a professional runner for Nike marathon runner for Nike Not this past year but the two previous years at the Boston marathon. She was the top professional American at the Boston marathon and she is incredibly knowledgeable Primarily. You know, she's not an academic per se, like she's never taught at a university, but she kind of has that perspective how she looks at stuff, primarily because she's she's been a coach for forever herself.

Speaker 2: 15:17

On the triathlon side we have Dr Matt Hansen, who is also a professional triathlete. He's won the North American Ironman championship I think four or five times. He was a former academic. He actually interesting story about him. He was up for tenure the same day as he had to decide if he was going to go pro or not in the triathlon world and he opted for the to go pro. So he's working with us. We did a lot of videos with him on the triathlon course, dr Chris Myers, who is a PhD in physiology. He's currently working with the US Air Force, I believe over in Germany is in human performance. He did a lot of contributions to the triathlon course. So yeah, a lot, of a lot of contributors across. Dr. I'm sorry, not Dr Corrine Malcolm. She has a master's degree in environmental physiology. We just had her on our podcast recently talking all about the effects of altitude, humidity, heat, cold, pollutants, all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 2: 16:17

So yeah, the goal is to kind of find these people. That it's a challenge, you know, because you want to find people that know their stuff but can also for lack of a better word sort of dumb it down and put it in a way that someone like myself can understand. You know that because it's a lot of it's really complex stuff. So that's the challenges.

Speaker 2: 16:36

Once we find these people, we're okay, great, you're super smart, but can you either talk about it or write about it in a way that the general public can understand, in a way that's consumable? So that's that's our challenge. When that's one of our big challenges, I should say when we decide to vet people, because oftentimes we'll, you know, talk to somebody like, wow, you have like 10 million PhDs and whatever. You're super smart, and then they start talking I can't understand a word. They say it's like way over my head. So that that's a challenge. But I feel like we found a very good group of people right now to to present in this conference we're having. For example, we have Stephanie Howe, dr Stephanie Howe, she's a former winner of.

Speaker 2: 17:18

Western States PhD and you know. So she's presenting on ultra running, specific nutrition. We got Walter Whoakamer. He's a professor at University of University of Massachusetts. He'll be presenting on biomechanics, all that kind of stuff. So yeah, it's a long process to find the right people, but it's absolutely worth it Because, like I said, if someone's going to be paying money for our products, they deserve to get the best value and the best and, to your point, the most recent information.

Speaker 1: 17:45

Yeah, and unbiased information as well. I think that's that's really important, it's that it is unbiased, it's not, you know, going down one path. Actually, you know, yes, it's all very science-based, but it's very much with an open mind as well, and you know that one thing that the science says over here might not actually work for that person over there. And that's where I think that's where the art of coaching then comes in.

Speaker 2: 18:11

Yeah, and you see it all the time, you hear it all the time. Right, like, hey, you know, you know, oh, this person can run a two hour marathon or a two ten marathon. Therefore they have to be a great coach. That has no correlation to being a great coach. Maybe they're terrible coach because they have great genetics and they, you know, they just can't relate to someone that runs a five hour marathon. Yeah, there's no, and you see that on coaches BIOS a lot on coaches websites, you'll see the races they did, what their PRs are, and that's great, it's all fine. But if it's done for the purpose of marketing, I definitely want your listeners to know that there is zero correlation between being a fast runner or a high performer and being a great coach. I do think it's helpful that you are a runner, so you understand, you know what your athletes are going through and all that kind of stuff, but being fast and talented is absolutely not a prerequisite to being a great coach.

Speaker 2: 19:08

No, without a doubt yeah, but I think a lot of people assume that, which is interesting.

Speaker 1: 19:12

Yeah, and I think a lot of people do choose coaches based on their athletic performance rather than their coaching ability. And yeah, and actually you only need to look into some of the greatest coaches in sport. Actually, like Teddy Atlas, he was only an amateur boxer but he coached Mike Tyson.

Speaker 2: 19:31

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Speaker 1: 19:33

Yeah, there's other, plenty of other examples. In fact, there's one in the running world, david Radisha, the 5,000 meter world record holder, or former world record holder. Is he former or is he still holding, anyway, his coach? I think he's former.

Speaker 2: 19:47

I think yeah.

Speaker 1: 19:47

Yeah, anyway, his coach, brother Colm, like a little Irishman that moved to Africa, walks around with a. I think he walks around with a stick but never been a runner in his life, and I think that's where I love to give that example, because I put my hands up. I've never run 100-miler ultramarathon but I've coached plenty of people to 100-miler Sure.

Speaker 2: 20:11

Absolutely. I've done up to 50.

Speaker 1: 20:13

Yeah, but I've not done 100. And people go well, how can you coach people if you haven't done it? It's not. I think actually sometimes your own experience can bias the decisions that you make for your athletes 100%, 100%.

Speaker 2: 20:29

Yeah, and I think that's to your point. That's what is great about having these very high-level, educated contributors, because they don't look at things through. I mean, I'm sure there's always a little bit of bias there, but not to the extent where my certification. You see these people out there. It's their system and I hate that word system but it's always like this is my system, this is what works for me and my athlete, so it's going to work for you. Well, it might work for you, but it also might not. Yeah, and so I think it's a.

Speaker 1: 20:59

Method, that's another method. Yes, yeah, that's exactly the coach name here. Method, yes, and.

Speaker 2: 21:05

I get it. I mean, people want simple, people want fast, which is why diets are always around and people just want Just tell me how to do it Step one, step two, step three, boom. I absolutely understand the people want that, but the reality is, from a coaching perspective, that's just not how it works and it's harder route to go, the right way to learn all this stuff about how the body works, how to apply it on an individual basis. But it's absolutely the right way to do it. And again, a lot of and, like I said, a lot of or the people that write into it to be like look, I bought your certification, why isn't there a template? And so I can tell coaches, here's your program. Well, that's why we taught you all that stuff, so you can do that on your own. We don't supply that for you, so that's always sort of an interesting thing.

Speaker 1: 21:57

Yeah, and that's why I tend to stay away from I won't name any names, but there are some very well-known coaches that have some very well-known books, that have now got very well-known coaching certifications that come with lots of templates and lots of workout libraries. I quite like making my own workouts and putting funny names on my athletes when they get a session in their plan that says Hurtie McHurt a lot Just fun names.

Speaker 1: 22:30

I can see all that one. I can send you the session Anyway. So a lot of my personal athletes and a lot of people that would be listening to this won't be elite athletes and they'll be thinking well, there's a lot of science here. I'm not an elite athlete. This all sounds like it's very much for an elite athlete, but a lot of people that go out there to get coaching are regular people. They've got jobs, they've got kids, they've got busy lives. How can a USK coach benefit somebody like that?

Speaker 2: 23:03

Yeah, again, it's a really good question. I think that's a common for lack of a better word misconception. So we have had no robots on our podcast. Another contributor to our running session is Ben Rosario, who is the head coach of the Northern Arizona elite, the Hoka Northern Arizona elite running team, which is one of the top professional running teams in the United States. Here. I ask them that question a lot just because I'm interested to hear what their feedback is. I say look, what's the difference, what's the magic sauce between how your coach trains you professional Olympic whatnot distance runner and me who just wants to go out there and run a 10K? It's really interesting their response. I said all of the principles that apply to a professional for the most part apply to the age group or the average runner, for lack of a better word. It has to do with scale, it has to do with workload. We obviously didn't choose our parents as well as some of them did that.

Speaker 2: 24:05

They have these amazing genetics and also it's their job, so they can go out for a three-hour, four-hour run and then come home and sit on the couch all day. They can recover better because they don't have a job to go to and whatnot. But the principles, there's not a lot of difference. A lot of it's just scale as far as distance. So, that being said, to get back to your original question, because of that, the same training methodologies, the same science, the same physiology, the way how the body responds to stress, it's all the same, whether it's you want a six-hour marathon or you want a two-hour marathon.

Speaker 2: 24:46

As you get faster and as you reach your limit, your genetic and your physiological limit, it gets harder to see gains. It's losing fat. It's easy to see it lose a lot of fat in the beginning, and as you get closer to your goal weight, it gets harder and harder. And then you have to bring in more resources and all that kind of stuff. And that's where I do think professionals have an advantage. They have their village around them, sports psychologists and massage therapists and all that kind of stuff. But the very core of it it's all the same. It just has to do with scale. But so, yeah, the information or certifications are just as applicable to training me, the 5K, 10k runner who just wants to go out and do the turkey trot as it does running in a wheat marathon.

Speaker 1: 25:32

Yeah, cool One thing with the USCA coaching certification is that we get access to a community so really great Facebook group. Very active you guys. Cindy is like she responds quicker than we can ask the questions sometimes. Yeah, she's always on there just to answer everybody's questions. So how does that benefit a runner when us coaches we're not just doing this alone. We do actually have the support, and I see questions on there all the time from people including myself. Yeah, I've got this runner who has X problem. How do I solve it with Y protocol, whatever it might be, and how do you think that benefits the runners out there?

Speaker 2: 26:26

You know it's really interesting. The number one piece of feedback that we get from our coaches are yeah, yeah, yeah, I took your certification because I want to learn how to be a coach and it's great and all and whatever. But the real value is that Facebook coaches group, which is not what I would have expected. I think the value there is that the coaches know that all the other people in the group and I think there's like 1200 coaches in there now, I think are in that coaches group. They know that they all went through our certification, so they know that these are individuals that have a respect for science, that come at their training and racing and coaching all more or less from the same angle. Of course, there'll be different opinions in there, which is a good thing.

Speaker 2: 27:10

But by and large, I think everyone knows that, okay, there's that sort of bar is here, so everyone has this base level of knowledge and I think they feel more comfortable asking questions in that group than they would say, going out into the internet and asking it on some random forum or something like that.

Speaker 2: 27:30

And honestly, yeah, when I created the Facebook group, it was honestly more of just a hey, here's a benefit, and I truly didn't appreciate and shame on me the value that it would bring to the coaches. But we hear that all the time that, like your certifications are great. It taught me a lot of stuff. But the thing that I find them most value in, especially post certification, is that coaches group where I can ask a question and get all this feedback from all these different people and then, similar to the certification, they take all this information and advice from other coaches and they sort of aggregate and almost use this little meta analysis and say, okay, here's how I'm going to then go forward, here's how I think I should proceed with whatever the issue was that they asked in the Facebook group. So, yeah, I appreciate you asking about that and it definitely is one of the biggest, I think, benefits that I'm finding you know via feedback from our coaches.

Speaker 1: 28:23

Yeah, I think your coaching can be a really lonely world.

Speaker 1: 28:28

And you've got to make decisions for these people that are paying you good money, that want to get a great result of. You know for the race that you know a lot of people put so much heart and soul in an investor investment in these races and it can be lonely if you don't have that. You know that that shoulder to kind of lean on, say, hey, what do you think about this? And you know it's not just one person that we get to ask, like you say, it's 1200 people in that group and you know it's 1200 really great people. You know not just you guys in the message. You know, generally the coaching community in there is fantastic. So I think anybody who is US qualified you know and if any of you listening out there that you know we're thinking about getting a coach and you see US go and you think, well, you know, I'm not just getting one coach, I'm actually getting 1200 and more. Yeah, yeah, and I'll add to it.

Speaker 2: 29:21

I mean, like I've spent, I mean this is my, this is my job, right? I mean I'm interacting all day with these high level you know contributors, like yesterday I was up at the training peaks headquarters. The other day I was down in Colorado Springs with the US, usa triathlon headquarters. So I'm talking to all these people all the time that are super smart. But, that being said, I'll go into the Facebook group and I feel like I learned just as much, if not more, from that group than I do in other areas that I interact with people. So it's an incredible resource and I find myself, you know, just as learning, just as much as the fellow coaches in there. So, yeah, I certainly personally appreciate it as well, just as a learning experience.

Speaker 1: 30:07

Yeah, Rick, I've got a final couple of questions for you. So since you've got an endurance background, could you just sort of touch upon how you would feel about having a US certified coach and how you feel that would be beneficial for someone training for something like an ultra marathon or a marathon?

Speaker 2: 30:29

Yeah, you know, again, there are a lot of options out there, a fair amount of options when it comes to coaching things, I think. I think when you're looking for a coach to hire, for whatever ultra cycling, triathlon, whatever it is, I think there's a lot of factors. I think there's the education piece for sure you know like what is it and also just their philosophy, because what we found is a coach's philosophy will largely shape what type of certification they're going after. If they're just looking to spend a couple hours doing something, just to get a piece of paper and say their certified coach, there's an option for that. You know, if they like you said, if they want to, they really like this one coach and their philosophy or system or method, as you said, they're going to go that route. So I think our certification sort of naturally selects people that sort of have our philosophy of it.

Speaker 2: 31:20

I think it's important because, again, if I were hiring a coach, I would want them to have all this science kind of like when you go to your doctor, right, you know, at the very least, no matter what their specialty is, they all had to go through medical school. They all have that core training, they know how the body works. I would want my coach to have that knowledge, to know how the body works and then how to apply it. The other thing too I think it's important to note is and this is important, I think when a coach you know, because it's not just about their credentials, I think when an athlete interviews a coach is also to know that it's a relationship you know, for better or worse, and like some relationships that are great, some are terrible and a lot are in the middle.

Speaker 2: 32:03

So I think also just the philosophy of the coach, the personality of the coach, is that coach professional, you know, do they return emails on time? You know, my wife had a friend who was trying to hire a triathlon coach who lived in New York City. He emailed like four coaches and no one ever got back to him. It's kind of like here, take my money and no one would take it. It's like why do you even have a coaching business if you don't return emails, and especially emails on time?

Speaker 1: 32:29

I get the opposite. I get oh my God, that was quick. Yes, and that means you do it a good job.

Speaker 2: 32:37

You know you can quiet, I'm sat by my phone.

Speaker 1: 32:39

Why would I ignore it and just go, oh I'll respond in a week, or not respond at all?

Speaker 2: 32:44

For sure, for sure, right.

Speaker 1: 32:45

That's the service I think is so important in our industry because it is hyper competitive. You know there are it is hyper competitive. But he said right at the beginning, there are so many coaches out there, unfortunately, you know, the UK is exactly the same as the US it isn't regulated, yeah, yeah, whilst there are insurance nuances and issues for people who don't have insurance if something does go wrong, it is unregulated and there are a lot of I hate to say it, but there are a lot of Instagram coaches out there still.

Speaker 2: 33:17

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 33:17

Yeah, yeah, yeah, regulating a little bit, since COVID has kind of passed us a little bit.

Speaker 2: 33:25

Yeah, and that's a good point too. You know that's the other side. With Instagram and all these things, is it like not just oftentimes what your race time was to promote that as being a good coach, but now it's also look at me, I have a six pack, I look like a professional runner, therefore hire me. And we're showing stretching routines which are terrible or whatever it may or may not be. So, yeah, hire the coaches. It's a big decision because it's someone that you're going to be working with all the time, and I also think it's important that some of your listeners know that the coach that might be perfect for you today might not be perfect for you two years down the road, 100%. You know it's sort of like and you see it in athletics all the time right, like someone hires a coach and they get them up to a certain point and then that coach can no longer really get them to that next level, so then they look for another coach.

Speaker 2: 34:18

So, yeah, it's a process, but I think a lot of it is. It's the education, it's finding the coach that shares your philosophy, a coach that you feel that you have good rapport with and someone who's a professional, can communicate well and once it has your best interest as an athlete at heart and it's not just about you know, like, if that, if that coach says, you know I have 6000 clients, I would run the other direction. They, they, they. You know they clearly don't really, they can't manage that much, so you're probably going to get a templated program. So, yeah, just really kind of interviewing the coach, you know the perspective coach, to make sure that this is the person that would hopefully work for you. And again, sometimes it doesn't, and that's not good or bad, that's just. That's just what it is.

Speaker 1: 35:01

Yeah, 100%, rick. You pretty much answered my second question, so we'll start to wrap up. But, Rick, if you could say to anybody who who was maybe in doubt of getting a you know, a coach, a USC a coach particularly, what would you say to them?

Speaker 2: 35:19

I would say do it. I mean, here's the thing. I think that at the core of it and it's not even necessarily USC coach certification and while we've talked about sort of the benefits of what we believe to be ours and some maybe things that aren't so ideal about the others, I do want to say that if someone is going to put the time and effort and money to get any coaching certification, that alone to me is a pretty big deal, because it means that they're taking their journey to be a running coach seriously. They're not just putting up their hand and be like I'm a running coach, you know which not? That's not necessarily bad either. They might be the most amazing coach ever, but I do think that when people decide to further their education, it's showing almost a vulnerability that they you know what. Maybe I don't know everything. Maybe maybe I can learn something to become better.

Speaker 2: 36:04

Whatever coaching certification that is, do I think ours is a little bit more comprehensive and in sort of what I envisioned to be the right way, or what I believe to be the right way, yes, but at the same time, I think the most important thing is that people are getting educated.

Speaker 2: 36:19

That can even be going and doing the research themselves on. You know, on some of these you know research or going to Google Scholar and started typing in stuff about running and just educating themselves. That, yeah, that's the most important thing I would say is just educating yourselves. Be a student of the sport. So when you go out for a run, don't just do it passively, think, okay, well, why did my knee or ankle do that? And then come back and research it. You know that's what makes a good coach Someone who's always wants to learn. It's a never ending process, you know, and if you take our certification and you stop your running process there, I guarantee you you're going to be a terrible coach, probably from a from a knowledge base side, two years down the road, because new research, new training practices are always coming out.

Speaker 1: 37:03

Well, we have to research part of the economy every two years.

Speaker 2: 37:06

Yeah, every every two years. Yeah, and the other thing I'll say too is and this is common within sports is that a lot of times the training is ahead of the research and meaning you know you as a coach might do XYZ interval and it works for all your clients, but you don't actually know the science behind it. You just know that it works. It's science's job to then explain why it works. So so again, I think you know a lot of coaches that have a lot of experience, that even might not even have a background in physiology or whatnot, or have a certification. They could be amazing coaches. They can't necessarily explain why it works, but they know it does.

Speaker 2: 37:45

And and again, good research takes a while. So so I would just say to to aspire in coaches, you know, I think a certification is a good thing. I think a certification is the right way to go. I think it validates and inputs a credential out there to say you're serious about this. But I think the most important thing is that you, that you are educating yourself and you continue to educate yourself 100%.

Speaker 1: 38:11

I would say an educated runner is a better runner, but also an educated coach is a better coach.

Speaker 2: 38:17

Yeah, 100%. I can agree with you more.

Speaker 1: 38:21

Rick has been fantastic having you on and everybody listening. I hope that you have taken something away there. I think for anybody who is considering getting a coach you know, whether the US are qualified or not I think a coach is a fantastic thing. You know, I've helped some of my clients just save some money each month because they were going out and buying things like the latest shoes, because that was going to get them the extra 3%, because that's what Nike told them and it didn't get them extra 3%. So I stopped them from buying the shoes and things like that. And there are great coaches out there that can help you do things like that. So, even if it's just my cost perspective, we're there to help you. Everybody is elite in my eyes. You know, having a coach isn't just reserved for professionals professional runners, professional endurance athletes and in fact I think there's more benefit to some amateur runners. People who just love going out for a run and doing an marathon and doing an ultra marathon can even get even more benefit from a coach than a pro can.

Speaker 2: 39:21

Yeah and the last, yeah, I agree 100% because not that coaching a professional is easy but, like I said, most professionals that's their job, so you can tell them to go out for that four mile, four hour run and then just do nothing for the next day or two.

Speaker 1: 39:34

They can do that.

Speaker 2: 39:36

But when you're trying to train someone for an ultramarathon and they have a family with three kids, they have a job, they have all these other obligations that get in the way of putting in some serious volume that's a challenge in tweaking that and fitting that in and the kids come home sick from school and then they get sick. I would argue that from a training program construction perspective, it's much harder working and much more of a challenge working with the normal average person out there than it is with the pro, because the pro just doesn't have all those variables that oftentimes I mean sometimes they do, sometimes they have family in a job, but generally they're much more flexible with what they can or cannot do when it comes time to the coach's suggestions. I would say something to an athlete about I can't do that. I can't soccer game as Zen.

Speaker 2: 40:32

I can't rest or do my run then or go for a bike ride. I have to squeeze it in between 5am and 6am. So it's a challenge and I think to be a good coach, you have to be very flexible and you have to understand that it's never going to be perfect. There's always going to be. You're trying to just progress. It's not about perfection. It's about progressing and getting that person the best they can be with what you got, versus a professional. You bring in every single person that can help. You bring every single resource in to get them that last 1% to hopefully win, and that's just. That's not what we're dealing with for the average person. We're dealing with screaming kids and work and injuries and mowing the lawn and all that other stuff.

Speaker 1: 41:17

You just basically explain my life. Yeah, there you go Same same yeah yeah, no, I 100% agree with all that and I have a saying fit running into your life, not life fit into your running, because I like that, because that's when you've got to think of it this way right, training is stress, and then screaming, kids, jobs, mowing the lawn, all that stuff is stress.

Speaker 1: 41:42

And if you've got too much stress coming from both sides, that's when we're dealing with things like injury and illness 100%. And that's where I think that's where the art of coaching comes in. You can take all that science, apply it to the art and go right. I've got an athlete I've mentioned him on a couple of podcasts already called James. He can only run three days a week. That's it. That's all the training he can do, plus one session and I've got him to a 308 marathon, a 145 mile ultra marathon. Three or four weeks he's done 50 miles. That's impressive. 100 miles, yeah, I mean, he's got a very strong mind, which does help, but from a physical point of view it's about right. You've got three runs a week. What can we do in those three runs a week that are going to benefit you, based on the science, the science base that I've got from US and all the other education I've done?

Speaker 2: 42:37

Yeah, and Kudos to you. I mean, when you told me that limited amount of time and then you told me what he just did in those times. That is good job.

Speaker 1: 42:45

That's impressive.

Speaker 2: 42:48

I would be like don't work with me, work with another coach.

Speaker 1: 42:52

No, he's a good guy. He's easy to work with. Anyway, rick, thank you so much for coming on. It's been a pleasure talking to you and, yeah, I look forward to doing more US courses. I know you mentioned the Gate and Lasis one. I'll definitely be looking out for that. I'm going to be doing the nutrition one myself pretty soon, so Perfect, Well, thank you.

Speaker 2: 43:11

Thank you so much for yeah, thanks for having me. It's been great chatting with you. Appreciate it.

Speaker 1: 43:16

Yeah, awesome. Thanks, Rick.

Speaker 2: 43:18

You got it.