Slut, Spinster or Superwoman: The Impossible Societal Pressures Women Face in Their 30s

This week, Scarlett joins Dazed & Delulu for a no-holds-barred chat about the ridiculous labels we are slapped with and the impossible societal pressures put upon us as women.

We talk openly about what it really means to have it all, the unobtainable standards of social media, the fears of motherhood, childless by choice, slut-shaming, and how the grass always appears that little bit greener on the other side. Nothing is off-limits. Enjoy!

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Transcript

Hello Deluluigans! Now before we crack on with this episode, I just want to let you know that this episode contains candid, unfiltered conversations about personal experiences, gender norms, societal expectations, relationships, parenthood, and more. 

I cannot stress enough that these are our individual perspectives based on our own lives and observations. We understand that everyone’s experiences and opinions are completely unique, and some topics we discuss—like the pressures of parenthood, fertility, or choosing not to have children—may be sensitive or not resonate with everyone.

Our intention here is never to offend or alienate but to spark meaningful, open conversations and provide a safe space for reflection. We deeply respect all viewpoints and experiences and hope that, even if you don’t agree with everything we say, you feel inspired to reflect on these topics in your own way.

We can only speak for ourselves and our own experiences.

As always thank you for listening, and we hope you enjoy the episode.

When life gets messy, we get Delulu, buckle up bitches, it’s time for a chat because this is Dazed and Delulu.

Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Dazed and Delulu. Today, I have my very best friend in the entire world, Miss Scarlett Fry here with me, who also happens to be my housemate. What's happening, girl? You alright? 

I'm alright. You alright? You alright? So glad you're alright. I'm more than alright. 

For context, we have been best friends since I was 14 years old when I moved over from schools and she has literally been one of the absolute lights of my life when I moved over and I was bullied obviously it was really nice to be welcomed into a friendship group who actually gave a shit about me and one of the girls who helped me become Lauren Ralph so we've been through a hell of a lot together when I decided to actually leave the country and go travelling in 2016 she was by my side because I couldn't leave the country when I, when I decided to leave because it was just all too much.

So she came with me and we did two weeks of Africa and then we left each other at the, at the airport and we didn't even look at each other. We just were like bye and like, we just didn't even look. And I was like, I'm not going to cry. 

It was the awkwardest bit was that we said bye. We had a real brief hug and then you had to go down one aisle and I had to go down the other, but they snaked back on each other.

Do you remember? So every time that we got back to the loop, we would face each other again and be like ok bye. And it happened about three times with like a glass wall between us until we got to our departure gate. So yeah, yeah, it was a sad goodbye. 

It was a very sad goodbye. And then obviously the minute I decided that I was leaving and she kindly offered to put me up at her house, I said, I don't think I can do this on my own.

Can you come pick me up? So she came all the way to Australia, picked me up, helped me pack up my apartment after six years, said a very, very tearful goodbye to my friends. We had Christmas with, uh, my best friend Frazer at his house. And then. We went out with a bang in Bali for two and a half weeks and travelled all around and it was absolutely amazing.

I honestly don't think I would have got through that particular time in my life if you weren't by my side, to be completely honest, because it was very hard to say goodbye to a life that I'd built up for six years. And I don't even know if I would have actually got on the plane because it's a very scary thing to do.

And I just thought, I don't think I can do it. And then as soon as you'd said, yep, I'll come over and the flights were booked and everything was decided upon. I was like, okay, this is it. This is my new life now. And I just was so excited that I would come back live with you and it just made the whole process so much better.

Yeah, it was a good time. I think bringing in the new year in Bali. Oh my God, yes. Was our buffer, wasn't it? Happy New Year! 

We have video evidence of that moment by the way. 

Like literally, I think I was actually peeing in the swimming pool and I was like Happy New Year! And it was just a really good time.

It felt, because we had that week and a bit in Australia before we left saying bye to everybody, then getting on the plane again and knowing that we'd done this multiple times before where we've been away traveling. It kind of didn't feel like it was a hello or a goodbye. It was just like a see for now, just like a new chapter.

Yeah. And that's nice. That's the best thing because like, obviously I've traveled a lot on my own and most of my flights are spent alone. So to have you by my side, it just adds that extra excitement. Like it was a bitter sweet ending because I knew that I was leaving Australia and I was crying at the airport with Scarlett as we were like drinking as much as we could consume but we it was also really nice because we knew that we were going on the next adventure and although it was a sad goodbye it was very much like i'm so happy i did this in the first place i've had six years of an amazing time and now it's time to close that chapter and we know that whatever we do is exciting.

So we knew that Bali was going to be amazing. And then we would have all these new memories that we would create together at home in Essex, living together, something new for us for the first time. Like it really accelerated our friendship. I'm sure she's probably like, God, I never want to see you again.

Cause I'm not exactly the tidiest housemate, but I try. Yes. So welcome to the podcast. I'm so happy that you're here. Um, so every, podcast episode, I want to try and debate a topic of true or de lulu. So this one's for you, Scarlett. By 35, every woman should have a thriving career, a loving partner, a couple of kids, a house with a white picket fence and still manage to look like a supermodel.

What do you reckon? True or delulu? 

I mean, it's a lovely thought, isn't it? So I think for some people that might be true for the lucky few. But I do think Rosie Huntington Whiteley, we're talking to you. But I do think Delulu to think that you have to have all of those by 35. 100%. 

I don't know why society says it.

I don't know if it's because 35 seems to be like etching towards middle age. So it's like, well society says you've had enough time to achieve all of those things, but what they don't realize is how difficult those things are to achieve. Like, even just to find a loving partner, which is one of the many things on those lists is difficult because dating in your 30s is a complete shit show or having a nice house with a white picket fence. Good luck. Most people can't even afford rent these days, let alone a mortgage the deposit, the stamp duty. Everything that comes with it. 

Yeah. 

Obviously just for context, me and Scarlett are very, we're in very different places.

She has two mortgages show off, um, on fricking commended for that because a lot of people do rely on their man to produce a house. So hats off to you because you've done two mortgages on your own, which is absolutely amazing. And but that's the thing, like, there's a lot of things on that list that you need to tick off.

So I don't know if it's possible for everybody to get every single one off that list. I think anybody who's got even one thing off that list should be commended. You'd have to start so early, because if you're going to build a career, or at least a good foundation, get your financials in place to even get a mortgage, to stay on the ladder.

Then there's obviously what's going on with inflation and God alone knows what else in the world to try and get there. Um, so yeah, your career, the mortgage, meeting someone, like you say through all of that process, kids and painting and building a white picket fence. Like you better be getting your arse in gear by 20.

I know. And don't even think about having fun in your 20s. No, you need to be building that life. Like bugger that. I can't even go to uni in that time. Like it's just a lot. Yeah. You need, when are you going to have fun? You probably can't attend freshers week. Not that either me and you went to uni. So we're just imagining that.

I would love to have gone though, just for that. I don't see uni as this educational thing. I see it as like an experimental phase where people are like getting on girls and just like getting on coke and like going nuts. Who am I? Trying to figure it all out, meeting all these people. I would go for that.

Not for the educational side of things. But why do you think society still expects women to hit certain milestones by specific ages? We have a biological tick. Tick? We have a biological tick. We have a biological clock ticking. I knew where you were going. Tick tock. Yeah, not everyone has ticks. We all probably have a few.

In your pants. I'm already getting tongue tied. Um, biological clock ticking. So that, obviously, probably has a lot to do with it. 

But why is it 35? Like, I was so scared about turning 35 and I'm about to turn 36. I know right? I don't look it. But, 35 for me was a really huge thing. I've got cramp in my foot and I can't do anything about it right now.

Where did your toe go off? I'm so sorry! I was thinking about something really Your eyes were glassing! I was like, is she gonna cry! Because I wantd to laugh! Because I've got cramp! Do you know, I know this sounds terrible, but the last time I got cramp I was having sex!

I mean, this is intimate. No, I had my leg up, and then I. Oh, okay. Detail. Well, I said that this would be raw, unfiltered conversation, so we've gone there. But yeah, and I remember being like, Ow, ow, I'm just falling off the bed. It was most embarrassing. No, it's not you. It's my foot. I'm so sorry. I'm actually crying with laughter.

I thought you was. I was like, Okay, it's not that bad being thirty five, christ. You'll be alright. I'm thirty five! No, but the thing is, I just. Is your foot okay before we carry on? Is it alright? It's okay, it's okay. Thanks for being such a great friend. 

By the way, before we came on here, I was really hoping that I wouldn't be laughing too much because the last time we did this, I really didn't like my laughing face.

So I've been trying to like, be calm. And then I was like, oh it's fine, the microphone's been big enough to like hide from my mouth. And every time she goes to laugh it's like quivering.

I'm glad we did the sound check before just to make sure. She was like, just laugh as loud as you think you might laugh for the sound check I think we just beat that.

Yeah, I think when I was turning 35 I mean it was just a running joke that every time I would be like I'm 30 fucking 5 Like, it's a huge tipping point I think 30 Maybe because for me, I was with somebody at 30, so I felt like I was kind of going places.

I was in Australia and I'd had my visa and we were living together. But turning 30, God, we're not on a great day today, are we? We've had a few wines. Um, but yeah, turning 30 for me was actually like an amazing, exciting time. But then after that, I feel like it just went downhill. Have we made up 35? And I only, I'm just thinking of this now, right?

Because I swear it was 30 but we did have great, our 30ths were great. 

Like I said, 30 was an exciting time. A really exciting time. 35 is like, okay, you're pushing 40 now. Like you're, you're, do you reckon that's what it is? Yeah, I think so. And I think you start ticking. You’re nearing 40 that the panic kicks in. 

Yeah. And I think you start ticking a new box, don't you?

You're no longer 25 to 30 or 18 to 30. You're now 35 to 40 or 35 to 50. And I think that's quite terrifying. Were you scared to turn 35? 'cause you've obviously just turned 35. 

I know, I was just about to say that and you're like, oh. Last year and I was like, Hmm. 

Actually been approximately, not even, yeah, it's just been a month, almost five weeks.

Um, no, not really. I mean, I didn't wanna say I was 35, but because I'm the last one in our kind of girl, well not last by two to turn 35. And the rest of you all are, I've heard it. Do you know what I mean? So it doesn't feel like, I guess it's scarier for you, because you're the first one. 

Yes, unfortunately I am the first one.

But I do think that there's a difference between the pair of us, because obviously, on paper she's much more established than I am. I mean, I'm rich in experience. She has a boyfriend, she has all of the things that society says that you absolutely should have by the time you're 35. And I don't have any of those things.

So do you think that maybe, you don't feel as much pressure as somebody like me who doesn't have the things that you have, who hasn't accomplished the same things that you have at your age? Yeah, I'd say thats fair. Because things like mortgages, I think when you have one, you do see it as a bit of a debt. As much as a nice thing to have, and yeah, you've got a house, it is actually, when you break it down, it's a debt.

And it does give you security, but then you've also got to make sure you're always working or enough to at least cover the mortgage. And do you know what I mean? You've got it now, great, but then it can actually be taken away from you. So then it's just this thing you have that kind of anchors you down a little bit, but it does have its good side, its plus side.

So yeah, I probably would say I'm less stressed about being in a certain place in life to fit societal, I guess ideas. But I don't, I never grow. I don't remember ever really thinking or growing up that I had to have a mortgage or like that was the end game. 

No. And to be honest, I don't think any of us really ever felt that way because it was kind of a given for our parents because they obviously could afford it.

Whereas now it's like I can't afford to pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of. Like, it's literally crazy. Whereas before my mom had a mortgage at 19 years old. That's just unheard of now. 

Yeah, it's literally crazy. But knowing what you know now, and obviously the freedom that I have, like the only thing I've got tying me down is two cats, unfortunately.

But if I wanted to up and leave tomorrow and go and backpack across Bali or whatever, I have that element of freedom. Knowing what you have now, if somebody said, okay, you can rewind 20 years and do things differently, do you think you would take the opportunity, or are you quite content with everything that you have now?

Both. I am content now. 

She doesn't want much. But I would, but I, having the opportunity to go back, I would definitely travel for longer, for sure. 

And I think there's this common misconception that everybody should work hard now so that you can save and then you can go and travel in the future. Nobody wants to be traveling in their 50s and 60s.

Why just do it now? Like that's my, that would be my golden advice to anybody who's going to do it young. I mean, I was 28 when I went and backpacked across the world and that was to me was old. People are doing it now at 19/20 and I think that is the way to live your life. But because I'm now at a point in my life where I'm about to turn 36, I don't have a mortgage, I'm barely like covering rent, I think I have nothing to show for myself now, but then my mom actually, credit to her, always reminds me that I am rich in experience and I have left the country and I have seen other places, whereas some people who have mortgages have never left Essex and I don't think that I could, I could deal with that.

No, and I think she's right because you have, you've lived abroad and you did so, when was the first time you moved abroad? 18? 19. Um, so yeah, you've been away. You've lived abroad in other countries, you worked for seasons, you then for years were across the other side of the world, qualifications that you've got off your own back out of interest and pushing it to make sure you got visas so you could be where you wanted to be.

Like that in contrast, like you say, to going to school, going to college, going to uni, getting a career, buying a house, having kids and then not seeing the rest of the world. How do you know what's out there? And actually what you are doing. Are you content in it? Because it's all you know, I think it's always grass.

The grass is always green on the other side, isn't it? Like if I was sitting here with a mortgage, three kids, I would probably be looking at someone like me who had traveled thinking, God, I wish I saw more of the world. But because you don't have it, you think it's this like amazing thing that you must have and you're missing out on something.

I go through, I go in two minds. Sometimes I'm like, I'm a strong, independent woman. I don't need anything or anyone. I'm really happy with my choices. And then I'm like, I'm going to die alone. I have no one society tells me that I'm a failure at 35. And I flip between the two mindsets. I'm actually, for the most part, fine with being single.

Like I have things in my life that I'm trying to achieve outside of a loving relationship, but I do feel that society is breathing down my neck saying that by 35 you should have found your person. So then it makes me question my worth. Like, What is wrong with me? Why haven't I found someone by now? Like I should have found somebody.

And then when everybody around me is in relationships, it makes it difficult for me to be able to be like, well, I'm fine being single because when I see everybody else around me in a relationship, I'm like, well, you should have that. And you need that. And this is a need that you have, but I don't necessarily think that it is.

I actually had. What I thought was a loving partner. I felt that I had the perfect life at 30 and then it all went tits up. So it's one thing finding a loving partner. It's also another thing holding onto them, but then also knowing your worth. Like I could have stayed with my ex if I really wanted to, but.

I knew that I wasn't happy and that my self worth meant more than that. So I would rather be single than stay in a relationship where I was unhappy. And I do think that a lot of girls at the moment may even I can't speak for everybody. Of course not. But I do think that sometimes people's out stay their relationships because they're worried of being single.

They'd rather be in an unhappy relationship than be single at 35 and I don't know why expectations, why would the expectation not just be to be happy, single married, In a two way, three way relationship. Why is that not the end goal to be happy? Why is it that you need to be with someone by thirty five?

No, I don't know. And I do think it needs to change because I think it might be different for younger, the younger generation now coming up, that might change for them. But I definitely think for our generation, there is this bit of a flag around your 30s, isn't there? I remember when I became single, um, just before my 30th.

And I remember my mum having that worry like, Oh my God, but you're, you're gonna be 30 and on your own. And she was like, tearing up for me. Um, but I get it like as a mother, you probably are just worried and how they, you know, you're going to be all right type conversations. Um, and do you know what I was, it was hard adjusting to it, but thank God that happened to me in my early thirties, because now on the flip to you, Yes, I am with my person and I've, and I'm in a happy relationship, but my career and where I'm going to now go forward is changing.

So it me and you, I guess, actually, I've just thought about that now, as we're talking about it, we're on the flip reverse of that. You're building this new career and I think I've found my person, but I'm looking for that career or that next move. What should I be doing? Is it a bit late changing at 35?

Some people might say absolutely not. There's CEOs that don't even start hitting it big time till they're in their fifties or something. But, um, I don't know. There is a bit of a marker around our age. And like you say, now, scientifically, isn't 35 middle aged? I always assume like 50s middle aged. 

I do think we are considered approaching middle aged but it's really interesting that you say that because there is this thing around age because why, why does it matter if you're having a career pivot in the at the age of 35?

Why does it matter that I'm not with someone and it's like you're like I'm glad it all happened in my like early 30s but what if it happened in your early 50s? It's still seen as this big thing, oh god she's on her own at 50 like we just need to change that narrative and I don't know how we will it's like you need to unlearn it.

But I do think that it is this whole thing surrounding age and people worry about it. People want to reverse it. Like people want to have Botox. They want to age backwards. And it's really hard to keep up with all of the things that you're supposed to do. Aging is a gift. It's the most amazing thing. When you look about, look at it, if you're not aging, you're literally dead.

Yeah. 

So why is there this big thing about aging? And it's funny that you say about the flip side between me and you with love and career. There's always something that you don't have that somebody else who has that you are envious of and they'll never know so there'll be people that are looking at me thinking, God, she's single.

She's been traveling. She's done it all. I wish I'd been like that. And I'm looking at people who have three kids in the white picket fence thinking, I wish I had that. You always want what you can't have because you think the grass is greener on the other side. But really, the grass is greener where you water it.

You need to put the effort into it. If you want to find a man, go all out and go and find a man. If you want to change a career, go all in and think about what it is that you want to do as your career. And then that leads me into like the next thing, which is not only just having loving relationship, but then having children and shaping somebody else's life apart from your own.

Can you remember how old we were when we actually started thinking about shit? Maybe we should think about having kids soon. 

Um, I don't know if there was an age necessarily for me. I mean, it's something probably that's on my mind at the moment where I'm in a relationship and I am in my 30s. Um, you know, it could be five years, could be 10 years, who knows, but I think I'm probably thinking about it more so now than I, was when I was younger, it did cross my mind when I was younger, because again, I was in a long term relationship, um, from like 17/18 till I was almost 30.

So it was around, but I didn't feel like I was ready to have children at that point. And didn't. So I guess for me, it's probably Yeah, come around as a as a thought, because I've been in a relationship. Had I not have been, I mean, especially in those four years of being a single gal, like it didn't enter my head.

I was like, wow. Okay. I've got a couple of, I'm just, I'm living life and kids did not enter my mind. 

No. And I think you're right in saying that because obviously when you are in a relationship, you do think about those things because you think of your future as you in this person and what that looks like.

Obviously buying houses, having children, that is your future together for me, because I don't have anybody that I'm with and I've been single for now four years. So whilst the body clock ticking does play at the back of my mind because I'm like fuck I'm not even with anyone and that's what worries me a little bit because not only can I not envision me having children because I'm not with somebody but I'm also like will I ever get the chance to because I'm this old and I haven't met anybody because I don't want to meet someone tomorrow and then think about having kids in six months because whoever you choose for your partner, whoever you choose to have kids with, they are in your life for 18 years.

If you don't like them or things go tits up, that can make your life very fucking difficult. And that's not something that I would want. So I would need to make sure that I knew the guy and I trusted him enough to love him, to want to be with him, to procreate with him. So it's very difficult. difficult when you are a woman and you have those things to consider.

But what is your biggest fear about becoming a parent? Do you, because for me personally, I, I'm terrified of becoming a parent because I'm like, I can't even parent myself, so how am I going to bring a little child into a world and shape her and tell her what she has to do or he, and guide her through life when I can't even guide myself down a motorway. 

Um, everything, absolutely everything about it freaks me out. It doesn't, no, freak me out is probably a bit of a harsh term. Does scare me and all of it's a worry. Can I afford it? Am I gonna be a good mother? Are they going to be, am I going to raise them right? How I'm going to feel if I, if I ever do feel, fall pregnant?

Am I going to hate it? Am I going to love it? Am I going to slip into a depression? Am I going to be absolutely fine? Is it going to make me ill? Um, am I going to grow a healthy baby? mentally and physically like everything about it. 

And that's the thing I think there's so much to consider that people just don't think of like everybody hears I'm having a baby and you go all high pitched you're like oh my god she's having a baby but it's like hang on a minute let's consider all the things that you just said.

Healthiness is obviously a huge thing because we are geriatric mothers now I hate to say it I mean we're absolute milfs as well but we are geriatric mothers and I think that it's hard because not only does it put the pressure on your, the health of your child, but it also puts the pressure on you as a woman as well, in your health.

Yeah. And then don't even get me started with fertility issues, like who even knows if I can have a child at this age. But I think your mum raised a good point once when she said that, obviously back in her day, you wouldn't even know, you wouldn't have access to things like hertility, and I don't want to go down the fertility route too much because I know that obviously, especially at our age, it can be very triggering for some, but I don't think that as great as hertility is, I don't think I would want to know at this point because I think it would add an extra layer of pressure if I couldn't or if I had issues, I don't want to really cross that bridge until I come to it.

But it is obviously good that you do have that. And then you do have the possibility of freezing your eggs. You do have those options. Which is obviously nice to think of, like I don't think that our parents really had that. But then I don't think freezing your eggs is actually guaranteed to work anyway, so you could spend all this money on these eggs, and then they might not even be viable anyway.

No, and just the process of getting those eggs scares me slightly, and then the process of then having them reinserted. And are they healthy? Are they okay? And we don't, I don't even know if there's a science out there, yet. Or if there's been enough time to study and very sorry, if anyone is listening to this, we'd love to know if you were a frozen egg.

Have we even got any research yet on how those frozen eggs are doing now? I would imagine there is Scarlett. Like, are they okay? Are you okay out there? Are you okay? Are you all right? Um, but no, you're right. Yeah. Being deadly serious. There's just so many options that women do have now. 

But the thing that annoys me the most is.

Where's the man in all of this? He has to do nothing but perform an act, which he quite enjoys as I've heard, and just plant his seed. He doesn't really have to worry about anything. Obviously, there are fertility issues and stuff that could be with the swimmers. However, he doesn't really have to do much.

He doesn't have to worry about the freezing of the eggs. And if he wants to have a baby at 50, he can have a baby at 50. If he wants them at 60, I'm pretty sure he can pop them out at 60 as well. So I think there's a hell of a lot more. Even older than that. I’m pretty sure. Who is it? Who's the um, Mick Jagger? Older than that. Robert De Niro. I swear he is in his 80s and he's just had a baby.

Really? Yeah. I'm pretty sure. 

Blimey. See, they just don't have to consider those things, and then don't even get me started on the hormones that you have, like, obviously, pregnancy can send some women into like crazy hormones or like really emotional, I mean, as if periods aren't enough, like, I feel like women just go through so much, and that's why it really annoys me that society puts so much pressure on us, I feel like men get away with everything.

I mean, it's controversial, obviously, but I just know in this case, I do agree, do they ask them if their clock is ticking? Do they go to family parties? Do they? I guarantee you, anybody that's at a family party who's single as a man gets, how's the job? How's your career? How's the office? They don't say like, oh, have you been on nice dates lately?

They might get the odd. Oh, see if you found a lovely lady yet. I reckon the occasional, especially from like their nan. I don't know, it baffles me. 

If you didn't have children, would it be the worst thing in your life? 

No, I don't think so. I mean, there would definitely be a slight bit of FOMO. Um, always.

And like you say, you always, there's always a part of everybody that wants something they don't have. And it's just always that gray space. What if, what would it feel like? What if I didn't? Would I regret it? So I think that's always an element, definitely. But I don't think for me personally, and you can brand it as selfish, but I think it's probably a very healthy, good form of selfishness to be happy in the life you're living.

You're, you know, I'm quite happy to put a stamp on it and say, no, this is how I chose to live and this is what it is. Um, but yeah, who knows? I don't know. Who knows? And the thing is, I think there always will be an element of what if, because you won't know. And it's not like you can, Keep the receipt and return them if you don't want them like that's the thing like I would love to have a child see if I'm good at it and then be like actually no I'm really not thank you very much goodbye.

And in true Lauren Ralph style you'd have the tag hanging off the back of them. 

Here's the receipt and the tags are intact. This is the best tip and this happened in never been kissed if you've seen that film where they keep the tags on and the funny thing is anyone that's watching I actually have the tag on this one right now I just I've had commitment issues I don't really want to part with it so if I like if I decide that I want 40 quid I'll be like oh just take this back if I need it if I want to go out.

Um, yeah, you wouldn't think I was 35. 

Oh, I want to go out this weekend. Can you, um, Just meh! Have her back now thanks.

I know, I meant returning this, not the child. I know! But the funny thing is, it's like, That's why you have aunties, see? You can just hand them over. Exactly, but then I do wonder, because people like my friends talk about like a mother's love or whatever and you'll never know what it's like to feel unconditional love so it is like oh do I do have FOMO of that but then I also have FOMO about what I could potentially miss out on like this podcast wouldn't have been born if I had a child I couldn't just fuck off to Thailand for six months if I wanted to because I'd had enough of it here so there's FOMO on both ends like what will I be giving up if I have a child, what will I be missing out on if I don't have a child and I think that we don’t, we don't commend women enough for being able to be a full time mum, it’s a full time job and that's the thing, like when you, and I've, I think I've seen something like on a post or something once and it said, these are all the responsibilities that come with this job role. And then there are people who are childless by choice and are like, I don't want to commit to all of those jobs. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. There's a lot to factor in of all the things that you have to do.

You are that person's primary caregiver. Like, and I'm sure that people will be like, who are mums. You're very selfish. I am. I've been on my own for 35 years and I'm not sure that I, I'm selfless enough to have a child and I think it takes balls to admit that because I'm not a selfish cow like I care for my I've got two cats I care for them I care for my friends I care for my family but do I think that I have it in me to be able to give up everything for a child having been on my own for as long as I am and being so used to being alone and not having anything to worry about.

I don't know if I could do it. And I also don't want to sit here and pretend that these thoughts don't go through my head. And I'm sure they go through other people's head as well. And that does not make you selfish if you don't want to have a child. Some people are born mums and they want to dedicate their whole life to a child.

But there are different ways of living now. And that's why I kind of want to have conversations that address both sides of the story. Yeah. And I think it's so important to have those conversations because some people will never admit that. And I'm sure that there are mums now who are like, I wish I could be selfish.

I just want five minutes to my fucking self to read a book. And there's nothing wrong with that. No, but then mum guilt. Yeah, exactly. And I think too many people enter into having children in this day and age because when they're not ready, it actually ends up fucking up the child more so than anything else.

My dad had me when he was 21 years old. Do I, obviously I'm glad I'm here. Thank you very much for fucking my mom. Um, but do I think he should have had me at 21? No, absolutely not. He was not equipped to be a father at that age. And that I think has messed me up a little bit when it comes to my relationships with men.

Is that all on my dad? Absolutely not. But we're very impressionable at a young age. And I think the way I saw his love because he didn't want to be around me every weekend. My mom and dad split up when I was younger. So, um, he wasn't around all the time. So he would have me on weekends and then my nan would, um, have me on the weekend.

So I would be like why doesn't my dad want me? Why does he want to parm me off on my nan? He's 21 years old. He wants to go out. I would want to go out as well. Like I do understand it, but I think sometimes you understand it now. Yeah. Which is the thing. Yeah. Growing up when you're young and you're seeing it, you don't understand that because they're just your dad.

There's no sort of comprehension around how old they are and what else is going on in their world to you you're their world and they're your world. Yeah. And that's where attachment theory is. And that's why I'm probably a very anxiously attached person and always have been. But I feel like now when you're older, I think it's nicer to be older and have children, because then I think that you're more in touch with yourself and you can be a better parent.

That's not to say that young parents don't do a great job. I know great parents who had kids young and they do a wonderful job, but I do think there is something to be said for having that little bit more maturity, um, to be able to guide your child because you've had more life experiences by the time they come into your life.

Yeah. Do you know one thing people always say, and I've heard this come from a lot of people, they don't want to be an old mom or an old dad. But I think in their head, they're probably thinking, not when the, not when you have a baby necessarily, but when your child is now 20 years old, you're going to be 60 rather than 40.

Or when they hit their 30s, you could be, you know, you've got your bus pass and you're popping down for your flu jabs at 70 or 80. Um, so that you're not going to be around to see or be able to do fun things with your kids. But you're right, actually. You've had all those experiences already, and the point is, to me at least, isn't, because if I do have children, I am going to be an older parent now, um, you've had all of those experiences, you're able to share them with your children, but then you're able to watch your children go through them and enjoy those things that you had with a wealth of knowledge around it, which is nice. Do you think that you've failed as a woman if you don't procreate because that was especially what we've been put on this earth to do? 

I was thinking about this earlier, just because you can, should you? Just because you're a woman and you're born with a womb and the ability to grow, birth and raise a child, should you? Thats a very good point.

And I don't know, I think, no, I don't think we have failed and I do, you know, my heart goes out to women that can't have children and want them.

You do have childless by choice and then you do have devoted mums and I don't think that there's either right or wrong there's either right or wrong. And that's, that's the whole premise of this podcast is to have conversations, hard hitting conversations like this, because there is no right way to do everything.

It doesn't matter if you're a mother, or if you choose not to be a mother, or if you choose to adopt, I think there's technically a mother in all of us, like the way I mother my cats, I'm a mother in that sense, the way you mother your nieces and nephews, you're a mother in that sense. I think there is a mother in all of us because we are very emotional, caring, nurturing creatures.

But whether or not you decide to have children or not is completely your prerogative. It shouldn't be questioned. We shouldn't be asked by family and friends or coworkers when we're having kids or do we want kids? These are all really personal questions that I think need to be considered before they're asked.

Yeah. I think the way that society views men, if men don't have a child, then that's no problem. Whereas if women don't, then that seems to be, oh, okay, well, why have you decided not to? It doesn't matter. You don't need to provide reasons for it. 

Yeah. 

But men and women are judged very differently. And even to the point where with the dating, sex, like you can't be a sexual being if you're a woman, forget it.

No. People are really uncomfortable with sexually active women, but not so much with men, which really annoys me. And society call unmarried wome spinsters and I don't get that. Like what's the male equivalent to a spinster? The bachelor, but a bachelor sounds sexy. Yeah, and that's not a derogatory term at all.

So why is it that we call women who choose to be alone or don't have children, spinsters, but there's no derogatory male equivalent. It's bachelors or players. 

Yeah. Yeah, they did get the, um, the better half of that deal, didn't they? Why do you think women get called sluts? It's annoying because it's always considered to be a term for women and not men.

Yeah, like I said, bachelors, players. 

Yeah, we don't call guys sluts. You just don't. Um, and for women, I just think it has such a, it's just a really horrible, like sexist word. And I just don't think it's needed. I think that women who embrace their sexuality should be commended. I don't think that we should not be able to get our kicks just because we'll be seen as a slut.

If I've ever slept with a guy on a first date, then the anxiety that goes through my head the next day. What are they going to think of me? They're never going to call me again. I'm never going to see them again. I shouldn't have done it. But what says we should wait one date, two dates, three dates, four dates?

Because I'll tell you something, I've made somebody wait about six times before and the minute they had sex with me, they ghosted me anyway. So what's the difference? I just wasted six weeks of my fucking life by doing that. I should have just got it over and done with in the first date. They would have been like, okay, great.

Next. And. Do you think any man who shagged someone on the first date wakes up the next morning and thinks, Oh, I shouldn't have done that, got beer fear, like anxiety? No, they're thinking score. Exactly. And then they're on the phone to their mates like, yeah, I banged her. But what annoys me, I think, is that men think that if she's done it with me, she'll do it with anybody.

But we as women know if you've done it with us, you're probably doing it with everybody. So why is it that we get the, yeah, why are we getting tarnished with the same brush? I don't understand it. I think that's one for the men. They need to answer that. 

And I think we are made to feel like sluts if we do choose to have sex.

And now I'm not giving anyone anything open mind, open heart, closed legs. Because at the moment I seem to just be a level on FIFA or whatever shitty PlayStation game they want to play. That needs to be unlocked. It's like a challenge and then once they've unlocked that level, that's it, they lose interest and I'm sick of having my power taken away from me. The only time I ever have power in a relationship or a dating situation is when I haven't had sex with them yet. And then as soon as I open my legs and I get intimate, that's it. See you later. And I've lost all power.

And I don't understand why. Mm. The funny thing is, women's bodies are the least interesting thing about them. Unlock a woman's mind, fuck me that's sexy. Like, that is sexy. Plus, when you're in your 80s, do you think sex is what's going to keep someone around? You need someone who makes you laugh, because you're going to have a broken hip, you ain't going to be fucking around.

Do you know what I mean? Like, you need to be laughing with this person. So you might have great sex with them, but what's that going to do? I just don't know where these double standards come from and why society is still so uncomfortable with the women, like, enjoying their sexual freedom, but it's the patriarchy and that's always been the way It's always been a fucking man's world and it really annoys me and I know people are gonna be like god you bash men a lot.

Yeah, I do. They get let off the hook for everything. There's still a gender pay gap I don't want to paint every man and bad like there are some wonderful men out there Yeah, however, I do think that that point needs to be addressed So not only have we got societal pressures to be married have kids, but we're not allowed to have sex You just don't find the same societal pressures on men And I think that is something that really irks me.

Yeah, I don't think you're alone on that one. Do you think It's different for each generation, those milestones change and where you should be at certain times, what that fundamentally comes down to. Do you think that's changing with each generation? Oh, god yeah. And the thing is, Gen Z They won't have the same societal pressures that we did.

We're still unlearning what our mums went through. The baby boomers, they were very much like the name says, baby boomers, like they were all about having kids, not necessarily having a career. I think they might have been warming up to the idea of women having a career, but millennials have really paved, paved the way for Gen Z.

In my opinion, I think that they are setting new norms where getting married isn't your first priority. Like going after a career. Are we millennials? Yes, we're millennials, Scarlett. Thank you. 

See, I told you I can’t. I'm here to educate you. It's fine. Um, so I think millennials really saw a huge change, like we were obviously the first ones with social media.

Gen Z now have always had social media, always had the internet. We, I think, are a combination of Gen Z, but also baby boomer. So although there are still pressures on us, I don't think anyone who's Gen Z coming up to 35 is going to feel the way I feel about having not reached a certain milestone. 

Yeah, no, I agree.

Like what advice would you give to 20 year olds? 

What would I say to 20 year olds? Um, I think social media these days is such a huge part of everyone's life and be very mindful of what you're consuming, what you're listening to, what you're watching, what you're reading, who you're surrounding yourself with, and make sure that all of those things that you are tapping into are for the greater good in you, people around you, where you're going, the world, just to be super mindful because I think it's easy to get sucked into all sorts and people I think can very quickly lose themselves and then they almost become so polluted by other opinions that they don't really know themselves and then they don't take the time to get to know themselves and actually what these things mean to them and hopefully they are in a position growing up and in a world where they can express themselves for who they are and not have to conform to some of the same stuff maybe that others have.

Yeah, I think that's a really, really great advice. And I think that we as women need to lean on each other. We need to lift each other up. We need to be there for each other, not letting yourself be defined by the boxes that we are put into. And I think it's super important to remember that all of these standards that are set are are unobtainable.

You're never going to get there. Even with self help, you should be reading 10 books a month. So then when I'm not reading 10 books a month, I'm like punishing myself like, Oh my God, I'm not reading enough. But then it becomes a chore. It used to be something that you just did leisurely that you really enjoyed.

And now it's become a chore being told to read all of these books and everything. There's a lot of information that's being chucked at you that wasn't chucked at us when we were in our, in our teens and our twenties. And it's still affecting us at our age now. Yeah. Having it come in later in life.

Social media, obviously I work in social media. So I love it, but I hate it. I think it's important to take breaks from it because you can get really sucked up in how you should look like Botox. I'm not going to lie. I have Botox in my forehead because I'm terrified of the wrinkles. The amount of money that I spend on it.

It's ridiculous. I could be spending that going on holiday creating memories rather than stick it in my face when it's going to disappear after three months. Plus I'm actually resistant to it, which is fucking infuriating because who can afford to keep getting that done when it doesn't work.

There's just pressure coming from everywhere and actually you need to love yourself and be kind to yourself because if you're putting as much pressure on as the rest of the world I wouldn't be surprised if half of, you know, the population crumble because it's a lot to deal with. 

And there's this apple experiment, I don't know if you've like, try this and let me know if it actually works.

So basically there's an apple. If you put two apples on different sides of the room, or in separate rooms maybe, you walk past one apple, every day you say to it, you're a piece of shit, you are disgusting, I really don't like you, apple, blah blah blah blah. You literally hit it with so many negative self talk.

With the other one, you go up and say, hello shiny apple, you are absolutely amazing today, god look at that pip, you look beautiful, you're so green and shiny. That apple that has the compliments will outlive the other apple because that will decay so much faster. So have a think about that when you're talking to yourself in the mirror.

The amount of times I say to myself, fucking hell, you look ugly. Oh my God, that's not gone right. You are literally decaying your insides by doing that. 

And you're 35 years young. Okay. You're not 35 years old. You know, and I 

always say I'm so old or I'm so old or this is what I don't have. Try saying this is what I do have.

I might not have this now, but I'm aspiring to have it. Like this podcast has zero views. Probably. That's where you lot come in. You fucking watch this podcast and you make it big. No, but like everybody starts somewhere and like the other day like we hit 100 followers on the Dazed & Delulu Instagram.

Woohoo! And I know that a lot of people were like why are you celebrating that it's 100 followers? Why would you not celebrate the small wins? I don't want to just wait until I get to a hundred thousand. I might be dead by then. Like we need to celebrate the small wins as they come up. And all small wins.

It's a real shame because I don't think we commend women enough for getting a promotion or leaving a toxic relationship or studying for a degree or traveling the world. It's just like a woman's worth seems to be defined by her milestones in her relationship. Like if you're not going to have a child, you're never going to have a baby shower, if you're not going to get married, you're never going to get an engagement party.

So you need to be celebrated in other ways. Like I want to celebrate my friends and what they choose to do and what decisions they make. That's important. Well I think Hallmark really need to think about the cards that they have on offer because they have Valentine's Day for couples, they have Mother's Day for mums, Father's Day for dads.

Where's the happy single day, well done you're crushing it by being alone. Like I want one of those, I do that every fucking year I’ve never been commended for it. Like I want a Hallmark card that says Another yeat on my own two feet, woo! Exactly! But how foreign does that sound? And we're joking about it now, but why is, why haven't we grown up with that?

If I was queen of the world for a day, I would have celebrations like that and anniversaries like that. Like, do you know what I mean? I think that we need to change that. 

If you were queen of the word, what rule would you have? I dunno. I was just about to say to you, are you gonna be Queen Lauren or Queen Ralph?

No, I'd have to be Queen Ralph. I think Ralph just made me who I was like when I spoke about it on Yeah, you’d be Queen Ralph. On episode one. I, which if you haven't checked out by the way. You should go and check it out 'cause it's fucking riveting. Mm-Hmm. . Um. I think Ralph was the defining moment for me. She is why I go after things like doing this podcast was a bit rogue, like quitting my job with nothing to go to, to go freelance marketing was rogue, but I don't do things by halves and I don't want to.

And I don't think Lauren Rolfe would have done it like that. Packing up at 28 and going off around the world, traveling rogue, like you've always been that way. I know, but would I have been that way if I was Lauren Rolfe? I don't think Lauren Rolfe had it in her I think Lauren Rolfe was a withering flower who would have just died. Thank God for Queen Ralph. What would be your first rule as Queen Ralph? First rule I think, and this is a controversial one because it's very hard. I would make it so that you have to be honest about everything. You couldn't lie. So if I said to you, Scarlett, how are you really feeling about me right now?

You would have to be honest. Because I think a lot of times people How can you make, how can you enforce that? 

Because I'm queen of the world. Like this, this is magic. Everything happens. It was me trying to think all like political a minute ago. I was like, I wonder what hers is. And I have to try and think of something on the spot for like, I don't know.

But okay. Queen of the world. Right. 

Yeah. So if I was queen of the world, I would make it so everybody couldn't lie. And that's the thing. I think a lot of people lie to each other and they lie to themselves. So I think that if I said to you, are you really happy in your relationship, Lauren, in the mirror? I wasn't happy in my relationship for a long time after a year and I wouldn't admit it.

You wouldn't be able to lie to yourself. You would give yourself half truth, harsh truths in the mirror. Or like if you said to me, how do you really feel about this situation? Or are you really annoyed with me? And you said no, because you always would. You would never be honest and say yes, and I know full well I'd piss you off.

You would have to be honest. It's a double edged sword, because you might literally lose friends. But how nice would it be if everybody was honest? You'd never have to guess. If you text a guy and was like, Why did you ghost me after sex? He would have to tell you why. Maybe. I don't know how it would change that.

It's a good point. I just, yeah, I mean, the world would probably be at war at all times. And we'd probably all be nuked, and that would be that. But, I don't know, I don't know, actually. We'd probably be nuked anyway, the way this fucking world's going. Yeah, true. It's making me think of that film. I watched it again the other week.

It's brilliant. You know with Mel Gibson where he can hear what women want. What women want! That's the best. So good. So funny. I don't know actually what mine would be. 

Well it's something to do with animals because you do like animals. I know. Do you know what I was going to say a minute ago? I was going to say just remove all borders on the country and just let everyone roam.

But then I was like oh Jesus that would be like turmoil. 

Or maybe just have like rhinoceroses in the garden. Like if you could have like all the animals in the world. You They weren't just like, some people can't be trusted with animals though, and I just wouldn't think that they're capable of looking after them. But if there was like no borders, no cages.

Like everyone just lived happily together. Be mine. I know that's . 

There's so many other things to unpack there. And all I want is world peace. Alright. Fucking Miss Congeniality over here. But that is what probably, yeah, what I would say. I think that's actually what she says when it's like, I know, what do you want for the world?

And she's like, harsher crime or like harsher punishment for parole violation Stan. And then everyone's like, what and then she's like, and world peace. I think it's nice though, that like, people are so different. Like you are a little bit like fluffy and warm and I'm a little bit more to the point.

Life would be very boring if everybody was exactly the same. Like I think you need to keep things interesting and I think that's why mine and your dynamic works so well because you are so different and you can take things on the chin and so can I and I will bully the fuck out of you because I think it's funny.

And you need honest, brutal friendships like that. You made me Queen Ralph. All the girls at school made me Queen Ralph. So I think going back to your point about who you surround yourself with, I'm a better person because of who I surround myself with. 

Aww. 

And I think that these conversations are so important to have because sometimes I feel like women may feel like they are alone or they may feel like there's a hell of a lot of pressure or they may feel like other girls are getting it right and maybe they're doing something wrong.

But the truth is we're all just trying to figure it out. Figure it, yeah. Yeah. And leaning on each other and having those kind of conversations are so important because you won't get through life without your girls because no one understands how hard it is out there for a bitch like another bitch basically.

So true. So in conclusion to True or Delulu whether or not we think you should have it all figured out by 35 and everything. 

Delulu to think that it has to be done by a certain age. Can you have it at any age? Absolutely. You can. But I don't think that anyone should be pigeonholed to a particular age to have it.

No, and nobody needs that kind of pressure from yourself, from your peers, from society. You can have it all. But what is all for you is different for what is all to me. And there's no right way to live your life. There's no one size fits all. For me, the main biggest milestone is knowing who you are, knowing what you want, knowing what you don't want.

The most defining relationship that you will ever have is the one that you have with yourself. I say it all the time, men will come and go, you might be in this relationship now and in 10 years time, you might be with somebody else. Like nothing is forever except the relationship that you have with yourself and how you build your life.

It's all a journey, baby. Well said. Mic drop. Here here, here here. Can we drink to that? Let's drink to that! Thank you. Cheers! And to all our badass bitches. We hope you enjoyed that. And Scarlett, thank you so much for coming on to Dazed & Delulu. I’ve had the most amazing evening with you. Thank you. We must do it again sometime. But until then, stay de lulu and we'll see you soon.

Bye!