Why Our Words Matter & Supporting Mental Health

Chris Segrin from the University of Arizona opens up about the messy, complicated reality of supporting someone you love who’s struggling with mental health. Instead of handing out quick fixes, Chris invites us to lean into empathy, reminding us that the illness is not the person — and that separating the two is where compassion really begins.

He challenges us to communicate without judgment, to listen with curiosity instead of fear, and to find strength in acceptance. At the same time, Chris gets real about the toll caregiving can take. He gives us permission to step back, set boundaries, and care for ourselves without guilt — because we can’t pour from an empty cup.

From using simple tools like text messages to create space for tough conversations, to walking the fine line between helping and enabling, Chris shows us how to show up for others while staying grounded ourselves. This is about building relationships rooted in love, honesty, and resilience — even in the hardest seasons.

BIO: 

Chris Segrin (Ph.D. 1990, University of Wisconsin) is a behavioral scientist whose specialty is interpersonal relationships and mental health. His research focuses on social skills, relationship development and satisfaction, and such problems as depression, anxiety, loneliness, and marital distress. This research can be found in journals such as Human Communication Research, Communication Monographs, Journal of Abnormal Psychology, Journal of Social and Clinical Psychology, Communication Research, and Journal of Social and Personal Relationships. He is author of the books Interpersonal Processes in Psychological Problems (2001, Guilford Press) and Family Communication (2005, Lawrence Erlbaum Publishers). Professor Segrin was also the editor of the journal Communication Theory from 2003-2005. In addition to his appointment in the Department of Communication, Professor Segrin is an Adjunct Professor of Psychology and Family Studies. Prior to joining the faculty at the University of Arizona, Professor Segrin was on the faculty of the University of Kansas and the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee. He teaches classes in interpersonal communication, nonverbal communication, persuasion, marriage and family, and research methods. Professor Segrin has been the recipient of six teaching awards from the University of Wisconsin, University of Kansas, and University of Arizona. Recently he has been conducting research studies on the intergenerational transmission of divorce, how social skills deficits make people vulnerable to depression, and why lonely people have more health problems. In addition, Professor Segrin has recently conducted a number of studies with colleagues at the U of A College of Nursing to develop methods for improving quality of life (e.g., depression, anxiety, relationship satisfaction, social support) for women undergoing treatment for breast cancer and their partners, as well as for men with prostate cancer and their partners. This research has been funded by the National Cancer Institute, Lance Armstrong Foundation, Oncology Nursing Foundation, and the American Cancer Society.

RESOURCES/ REFERENCES:

https://comm.arizona.edu/person/chris-segrin

Chris Segrin Books

Transcript

When we're interacting some with some of the mental health problem, we have to actually check ourselves.

We, we can't do that anymore. We can't assume that the rules of communication that I play by are going to be the same as yours. And that's where a lot of the frustration comes in. 

Welcome to this Way Up, the podcast dedicated to supporting parents and caregivers navigating the complex world of mental health. I'm Andrea, and each episode we dive deep into the conversations that matter, exploring the challenges triumphs and transformative journeys of those facing mental health struggles within their families.

Whether you're here for expert advice, inspiring stories, or just a little boost to get you through the day, we've got you covered. So grab a cup of coffee, kick back and join us as we find the bright spots in the mental health journey because we're all climbing our way up together.

Communication can make or break. Any relationship, but it can be extremely tedious when you are trying to communicate with a loved one who suffers from some sort of a mental health challenge. Today's guest, Chris Segren, is a behavioral scientist working at the University of Arizona who specialty is interpersonal relationships.

And mental health.

 so he's going to share with us today some effective communication tools that we can use when managing a relationship with a loved one who is challenged with their mental health. 

 And he will also talk about what happens if communication breaks down, how we need to better take care of ourself and even how we can use, uh, technology.

To bridge that, communication gap that sometimes happens. So I hope you enjoy today's, podcast episode. If you do, please like and subscribe And, we appreciate you. Thanks. Well, welcome this morning, Chris.

Welcome. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

I just realized it's not this morning for you. It's this morning still for me, but not for you. 

So. 

Correct. We've just broken into the afternoon where I'm at.

Well, that's okay. It's still morning here.So Chris, let's just start by giving, um, the audience just a little background on what it is that you do and um, and how you got there.

Well, my research tends to focus on the interpersonal aspects of mental health problems, and by that I mean both the interpersonal. Run up to mental health problems. 'cause we find often that people with mental health problems have jagged interpersonal relationships, troubled interpersonal interactions, conflicts in their background that plays perhaps an etiologic role in the development of their mental health.

And some cases, certainly not all, but then there's also. Interpersonal consequences of mental health problems. So there's all sorts of people with mental health problems that maybe do not have necessarily an interpersonal origin, but they have huge interpersonal ramifications for their family relationships, for their marriage.

Relationships with their children, relationships with their parents, their coworkers, their ability even to hold down a job. So I'm interested in those issues, uh, as the, the, the, the connection between our psychological sense of self and our social selves and how, where those come together and where they often collide, frankly.

Yeah. Uh, your work must be fascinating by the way, because there is so much to unpack with that and there really is, um. There's a divide, I think with, um, when there's mental health, struggles in that communication between on on all, on all sides. As you, as you had mentioned.

Yes, there's a lot of, uh, for people who are in a close relationship with someone with mental health problems, there's a lot of very, very difficult emotions, frustration, anger, confusion, sadness. Trying to understand what's wrong with the loved one, uh, and what they can do about it. If anything, uh, come to accept it.

Uh, it's, it can be very, very challenging.

Well, and from my experience is oftentimes the person who is struggling with their, with their mental health oftentimes. Don't even, they don't know how to articulate what is, what is going on, or they sometimes don't even recognize that there is a problem. And that becomes delicate when you're trying to manage that relationship in whatever form it is.

That's a great observation and it underwrites one of the really important things about trying to interact with people with mental health problems, and that is. What we often do is super impose our understanding of the world onto everybody else's. So for example, you were mentioning earlier, it's morning where I am, it's afternoon where you are.

I mean that, and we can have that conversation about that. And that reflects a sort of shared understanding we have of time and time zones and there's no disagreement about, you know, Pacific time versus central time versus East Coast. We all understand how that works. When we're interacting some with some of the mental health problem, we have to actually check ourselves.

We, we can't do that anymore. We can't assume that the rules of communication that I play by are going to be the same as yours. And that's where a lot of the frustration comes in. Sometimes. It's like, why don't you fill in the blank? You know? Well, that's because they're operating, you know, their radio receiver is tuned into a completely different frequency.

So you, you gotta be very careful about that. Um, the assumptions we make about how we interact with people. Something as simple as if I said to you, how are you doing today? Again, there's a norm in our society. It might go, oh, I'm fine. Person with depression might go not doing well at all. That might be jarring, or they may not even answer you, you know, and that can be frustrating.

But that's all part of the condition.

 I, I had all of these thoughts right when you were talking about that. I was thinking about my daughter when she was struggling with anxiety and I was trying to understand how she was feeling or why she was feeling something and she, she would say to me, I. Mom, it's, it d it's not rational.

I don't know. I was thinking of my son when he was struggling with OCD and he was, uh, up and opening and shutting, you know, a a, a drawer. And, um, I was like, can't you just stop? This was early on. And to realize that no, he is not. And then also there was a, a woman who, suffered from paranoid schizophrenia on our first season who was talking about how she now goes out and, educates, um. Like police forces and, emergency, uh, individuals. And she was saying that while they still have to protect themselves, what they have to do is realize that that person who is suffering with paranoid schizophrenia believes that their reality is, is real. That everything that is happening is real. So that becomes very challenging.

One when a person that is isn't struggling has to understand. What the person with a mental health issue is struggling with, but then also the complexities of different mental health challenges. What, you know, how there must be different ways to communicate, uh, with different

Oh, certainly, yeah.

s.

The range of mental health problems is extraordinary and you've touched on some of the more common ones that are at various points on, on the continuum from. Um, in, in deep, like, into deep psychosis where it, it, it may, in the case of like catatonic schizophrenia, may be actually impossible to communicate with that person, um, into more affective disorders like depression and anxiety, where sometimes they're reachable.

Although in profound cases of depression, people may not even get out of bed. They may not answer you, they're just completely shut down. So, and there's no one size fits all approach. Um, I, I think one of the more useful, uh, techniques, if you wanna call it that, is to begin with our own self and trying to, as best we can, accept what's going on and not fight what's going on.

Um, it's like having a, a relative with Alzheimer's disease. And you may say, why did you forget that? Or did you already tell me that? Or Can't you remember this? Or, why are you acting like this? And I mean, that's all like, again, trying to use my reality and get them tuned into it. And I don't mean to put this so bluntly, but I'm like, Hey folks, that ship has already set sail.

It's 

Yeah. 

And what you have to do is accept this is the new version of your loved one.

Hmm.

It, it once you can accept that the why aren't you, why don't you, why can't you? Questions will start to sort of melt away and you can try to start living in the kind of here and now with them, with whatever their reality is right now and supporting them as best you can.

Um, and, and not trying to get them to live in the same worldview as you and I I, listen, I know this is way easier said than done because sometimes. Their reality is so profoundly disconnected from everything we see. We feel, we believe that it's just hard to get into their world. But again, um, I think a lot of times a good approach is again, with acceptance, is also then trying to live in the here and now with them.

Enjoy those moments when you have those moments available to you. Don't worry about yesterday and don't worry about tomorrow. What, what are we gonna do right now that will make you feel supported, make you happy, um, help you pass the time, help you get through some difficult time?

When? When somebody is challenged because with their loved one that is struggling and they're coming from a place of acceptance. they, whatever is happening with the, the person who is struggling it, there there needs to be put a, a boundary or there needs to be a message that comes across that's strong that, and you're in just in conflict, but yet you don't want to, um, you don't wanna create, you know, uh, anxiety or further conflict.

How, what are some ways to approach someone? So that you can say, Hey, I'm here for you. However, the way you're seeing things or the way you're doing things is not healthy, not destructive, or it needs to be changed for whatever reason.

This is one of the huge challenges of being in a close relationship with a person with a mental health problem. The classic example of of this comes to mind is a person who's suffering from addictions where you wanna support them, but at the same time, you don't wanna enable 'em. Sometimes the line between support and enable is paper thin, and

Yeah.

in my view, one of the best approaches in those contexts is to be transparent and consistent.

By transparent, I mean. Let them know why you're taking the position that you're taking. It might be something as simple as like, from my point of view, what you're doing is really hurting you. It's, it's really, it's making your life more miserable. Um, or, you know, you're doing things that are maybe solving your emotional problems temporarily, but they're aggravating them in the long run.

And I see that as an outsider looking in and, you know, I'm explaining. I don't wanna get too complex with the person. Let's keep this simple. Easy to understand, you know, um, digestible. But that's the transparency part. I want you to know why I'm taking the position I'm taking, and then consistency. Uh, all human beings, including those with mental health problems, do best in social environments where there's some predictability and some consistency.

And when we set boundaries. We really have to maintain them. When you relax a boundary today and go, well, okay, just this time, I'll look the other way, or I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll let you back in just this once 'cause I feel bad for you. That actually ends up being confusing to the person. They think, well, am I, are you with me?

Are you not with me? Are you supporting me? Are you not supporting me? Sometimes the best thing to do is just hold the line and say. You know, this is how far I'm willing to go in. You know, like, if you're gonna do something that's gonna hurt you, I no, I'm not gonna support you in that, in that process, you're, you're being self-destructive.

Uh, but that, again, way easier said than done because especially when you have a very close relationship with the person with a mental health problem, your own emotions are just inextricably entwined with their wellbeing. It is very difficult to just say, I'm gonna divorce myself from that for the moment and just be this sort of robotic individual who holds the line and maintains the boundary.

This is, this is not easy. And people with certain mental health problems where personality disorders come to mind for the moment, they will even test you on this and they'll test you in very clever ways and they'll do it repeatedly and just pick away and pick away. And it can be just maddening for family and friends.

Uh, but it, again, the, the, the resolution of this or the, the, the way to to manage it best is, is, is able, as you are, to just stick to your position and always explain to them why you're doing it. And, and hopefully it's always coming from a good place. Goodwill 

though, huh? I mean, exhausting. 

Very exhausting. Very exhausting.

I feel so fortunate because I, my kids have, have, I, you know, I, I, I manage that when, when they were young and already irrational and, you know, you couldn't talk to a kid anyways. But I do remember always having to put my mind that this isn't them. Talking to me. You know, especially like if they would get into a situation where they were highly anxious and, you know, and, and, and got mean or nasty, I would always try to say, okay, this is not them. This is, this is their illness speaking. And it was much easier said than done. But once I was able to, like you said, divorce myself from that situation and just. Put some sort of a barrier in there, then communication seemed to be doing really well. And I would also of oftentimes tell them, um, I'm not going to, I'm not gonna communicate with you right now because you're, you're struggling right now.

And it's, and it's destructive to both of us, because I would sometimes get, I mean, there's only so much you can take as. A, you know, person caring for somebody who is maybe not thinking, um, in, in, in line with you.

First of all, that's a brilliant example of a form of acceptance when you can. In a non-judgmental fashion, take in what you're hearing from the person, but separate that from the individual who you know them to be and say, I, I know this isn't you. This is, like you said, this is the illness, talking this isn't who you really are.

And that's a, that, that's a level of non-judgmental communication that, uh, is almost an ideal. It's very difficult to, for a lot of people to achieve, um, because it does involve separating. Stimuli you have coming at you from this person, from who you know them to be. Uh, and, and that's not always an easy thing for people to do.

So good for you. But that's, that, that's what I mean when I talk about acceptance and, and being non-judgmental as, as best possible. The other thing that this raises is one of the fundamental points about being a caregiver of someone with mental health problems. And when I'm working with uh, um, caregivers.

One thing I often will say to them is, I'll, I'll recite that thing we've heard a hundred times when we got on an airplane and it goes something like this In the, uh, unlikely event of a sudden loss of air, cabin air pressure, oxygen mask will drop down and put your own mask on first, then help the other people around you.

The idea is you have to be fit your own. Oxygenation and cardiovascular system has to be fit and up and running. If you're gonna be able to help anybody else, if you're helping them and your oxygen basket is dangling there and you pass out because you're not getting oxygen, you're not gonna be a lot of good to them.

So we need at times to take time out and take time for ourselves. And I think that is part of maintaining boundaries, uh, when we are interacting with people who have mental health problems, is knowing when. I need to stop and put on my oxygen mask and just breathe deep for a few moments, and then I'll come back and help you, you know, because I'll be better able to help you.

Mm-hmm.

It's such a great point, is understanding when you've reached your limit and when you, and it's so easy as a caregiver to carry the burdens of everybody else. And think you're doing the right thing by carrying those burdens and not allowing yourself to offload some of those for a period of time, even if it's just 10 minutes.

Absolutely, and sometimes we have to ask ourselves, realistically, what's going to go wrong if I just take 10 minutes away? You know, there, there's an old, uh, piece of advice, uh, for parenting and I think it works well for people with, uh, loved ones who have mental health problems. And it has to do with how responsive you should be to your child when your child, and by this I really mean infant, when they're in a state of distress, you go through sort of a checklist when an infant is crying.

Like, have they been fed? You know, have they had water lately? Is their diaper changed? If. I check all those boxes. Sometimes just let 'em cry for a little bit. 'cause realistically, what is going to grow on, if they're in their crib, everything's safe, they've been fed, they got a clean diaper. That's dealing with distress on one's own is how we develop our own emotional fitness.

And that actually starts in infancy. And I think the real skilled parent. Knows when to jump in. Like, Hey, the child hasn't been fed for six hours, the child's got a dirty diaper. Obviously I need intervention here. Versus everything actually should be okay. I think the child can just deal with this for a moment and I'll just be in the other room.

There's no danger here. You know, let use that same mentality now. Um, when we're dealing with someone who may be in a state of distress and maybe wants our attention, maybe they're getting a little aggressive or ornery or they're arguing for the sake of arguing. There's nothing. More obnoxious than that 

What's that? 

Yeah. Are these, you know, people with personality disorders won't sometimes present themselves to you with all these needs. Like, I need your help. I need your help, but you can't help me. You know? And after a moment you just need to go, okay, time out here. You know? And really what will go wrong if they're just sort of left on their own for an hour, or, you know?

And so sometimes we need to ask ourselves that, that. The communication, the interaction, the attempts at problem solving and support. Uh, the world will not come to an end if those pause momentarily. Well, we can catch our own breath.

That's a good point. You say,

you said earlier, managing the stimuli that comes out. Us. And I think so often, whether it's when we're a parent or when we're dealing with somebody else, is that stimuli comes at us and then we start to react to it. And you know, I, if I think back about it, I think I'm thinking I need to do something to help them.

But in reality, what I'm doing is trying to help them so that that stops. Helps me. It brings down my level of anxiety, it brings down my discomfort. When if I could reposition that and say, okay, I need to just step away in order to manage that stimuli, manage my own anxiety, manage my own feelings, and allow them to, as long as they're safe to just manage themselves. Um. I, I I don't think I've ever really thought about it, that I was actually trying to help myself When you're trying to shut somebody else down.

Yeah, that, that and what you're describing actually takes a great deal of emotional fitness. Again, let's go back to that parent of the infant child. You, you've gotta be strong

to sit in your living room and hear your child crying in the other room and just go, I'm, I'm gonna sit, I'm gonna sit this one up.

That takes some real strength because everything is pulling you toward that room to go and help them and get them to stop crying and soothe them and see what's wrong. But, you know, sometimes like, no, this time I gotta just let it happen. It takes a lot of emotional fitness and it'll, it'll test the strongest person.

And it's the same thing when dealing with people with mental health problems, because we do want to have our own sense of anxiety and calm restored. And when there's all this commotion, spinning, and atmosphere above us, it's very hard to experience that calm and that peace and that lack of anxiety. So it, it takes, like I said, extraordinary emotional fitness and it takes a lot of practice.

This is not something you can just go, I'm gonna put this in effect tomorrow. This takes, uh, a lot of time of working on and getting used to these sorts of situations.

Is there anything, I know this is gonna sound. Maybe idealistic, but is there, you say it takes a lot of practice. Is there any simple things that people can do to, um, build up that resiliency and build up those, that skillset? Um, because it does, I mean, it's hard and it can take a long time and a lot of experience of, of failures in order to get to the right place to manage.

Yeah. Again, I would fall back on transparency and, and letting the other person know why you're doing what you're doing. I gotta step away for a moment, collect my thoughts, and I ask you to do the same. I think it's also, uh, going back to consistency when you have a consistent relationship where you say to someone, listen, I need some time out here.

I gotta go do a chore. Maybe we'll come back, you know, an hour. We can talk. If you've been consistent with them in the past and trying to support them and let them know that you're there for them, there really shouldn't be any question about the authenticity of your communication this time. Versus if you've been kind of inconsistent in the past and you say one thing and you do another, and they go, Hey, I gotta go on a shopping trip.

I'll really wanna continue this conversation, but let me take care of that. I'll be back. I may question that. You know, so one of the benefits of transparency and consistency is that it gives you license at times to say, I gotta back off. And with, hopefully they'll have the understanding and the belief that you really mean what you say.

Because in the past you've, you've honored your word, you've been consistent. You've shown yourself to be trustworthy with them. Uh, that and that, but again, trustworthiness, it takes time to build. Uh, and, but it, it is so beneficial to anybody, um, to know that this, the person in their life is indeed someone who they can count on, someone who will be there for them, someone who will be reliable.

But that doesn't mean every hour of every day, 24 7, 365. I mean, we all have to be reasonable about this.

right. And I think letting go of that guilt of. Thinking we need to always be there for that person is, I mean, first a gift to ourselves and really a necessity that, that, you know, we just, we just need to let it go. No one can be that, the end all, even if that person is so demanding, because I know that, you know, in mental health issues that sometimes that issue comes in and, you know, holds you hostage and it can just be, uh. Exhausting. Again, just exhausting.

Absolutely. And so let me tell you a story that, that, that will sound like it has nothing to do with mental health, but it actually, it translates quite well. One day I hired a contractor to come into my house and install a, a new, some new doors and. Two people came in. Oh, actually it was a crew. It was like three people, but there was like a master carpenter and he was about to retire.

I later talked to him and he had a, like a journeyman and apprentice brand new, you know, young guys, kids out of probably high school a few years and watching and then the old guy was just sort of standing there watching his crew. And there was a moment where this young guy was trying to install the door.

He just could not get it to fit right. And he was struggling up and down and trying to shim it and whatnot and working on it, and working on it. And the old guy was just watching him, I being a woodworker myself, and I could see the problem that he was having. I said, Hey, I, I got a tool out in the garage.

It'll do this. Why don't we run out there, do this and we'll fit? And the old guy, he's emotionally, he said, come over here. He took me outside. He goes, let him struggle with it.

Hmm. 

I said, well, this is my door in my house. That's the only way he's gonna learn. And then that light bulb went off. I like, this man's a genius.

He knew. He knew exactly what the problem was. I knew what the problem was. The young guy couldn't figure it out. He was stru. But the old guy was like, let him struggle with, he needs to struggle. That's how he's gonna learn. And then he'll figure out the solution. And if he figures out on his own, he'll be that much better the next time he goes to work the next day.

If we do it for him, he won't learn.

Right.

I, I was about 35 years old when that happened. I will never forget that to the day I die. That is actually a master teacher and he taught by doing nothing, by letting the person struggle and he again. This man, it was his company. He, he wasn't gonna let the final product be interior.

It was his name, was the name of the company, but he knew that it's okay this time if this young person spends a few extra minutes struggling on his own to try to find the solution. I'm here in the background. If something goes horribly wrong, I can step in and fix it, but I'm gonna take this moment to just let him struggle.

In fact, again, there's theories of parenting that are built on this. And again, it translates well I think, to supporting people with mental health problems. When we let them struggle and solve their own problems, they get that much stronger, that much more capable now. Again, easier said than done because sometimes it's very difficult to tell, is this a problem that you can actually solve yourself or do you need my intervention?

But just remember if we, like you said, our, our immediate reaction is often to constantly intervene when we do that. They will not develop those coping skills that all of us need as as members of society. So sometimes we need to, as the master carpenter said, let them struggle.

So let me ask you now. About texting and technology, and there's some ways that I see that it's much easier to communicate and then many ways that I see it's much more difficult to communicate. What is your take on technology and how we're using it in communication, especially in the mental health, uh, arena.

The huge issue. I mean we, we've seen a revolution in the last, you know, 25, 30 years. And I really mean that in the most literal sense of the term. 'cause the last. 500 years before that, communication's been pretty similar and all of a sudden we have all these devices, all these technologies, and of course there's a huge generational, uh, gap in terms of how people have picked up on these and what they like to use.

So here's what I say. If you're dealing with someone who has a mental health problem and your, presumably your fundamental goal is sort of reaching them, you know, getting through to them. If you've determined that that's what you, you know, you, you, you wanna do, I wanna be as effective as I can at communicating with this person, then the thing to do is to try to get into their world in, in terms of the communication modality that they like to use.

I can go on for hours and hours telling you how I hate text. I don't like text, I don't use emojis, you know, no Twitter, but. What good is that? I mean, and sometimes people my age, they get caught up in that, in, in this sort of churning through the co their complaints about the technology they don't use. My thing is like, look, if you wanna reach your grandchild or your child and they're a text person that just start texting 'em, you know?

Or if they, they like email or you know, whatever. Some people like to talk on the phone. Some people are terrified of talking on the phone. What I'm getting at is. When we deal with people who have mental health problems, try to meet them as best you can, where they are at, and if that means face-to-face or phone or text or instant messaging or you know, whatever, whatever it is, as best you're able, try to use that technology and get a line of communication going with them that way.

And maybe when the time is right. You can bring up the idea of like, boy, it would be great if we could get together in person and talk, or hey, could we pick up the phone? Sometimes I'll do that with people. We'll text back and forth and the conversation, if you wanna call it that, I don't call it a conversation, but some people will, it gets deep enough.

They say, you know, there's a lot of details going back and forth here, and you're, you're putting some complex issues here. Why don't we just pick up the phone and talk for five minutes? You know, but, but the ideas start. With the modality that they're the most comfortable with. What people in my generation often overlook because I was, you know, raised on the telephone.

I mean, we talked on the phone all the time, but a lot of young people are terrified to talk on the phone. They feel very, they feel like a fish out of water. They don't, they're awkward, they're not sure what to say. They're, they, they're worried that they're being put on the spot. They, you know, they like the idea of, I can think for a minute and compose my answer, whether it's on email or instant message or text.

It. There's a reason why some people don't like to talk on the phone or talk, get together and talk face-to-face. And a lot of times anxiety is what's underwriting that. So again, find the modality that that person is comfortable with. And this is about, again, going back to what we talked about earlier about acceptance.

Acceptance means this isn't really about me and what my concerns are, my hangups, my preferences are, this is about you. I'm trying to reach out to you. So the best I'm gonna be most effective at doing that if I get on the pathway that you're on, whether it's one that I like or not, uh, and again, down the road away is once we've built some rapport, maybe I can try to persuade you, um, to do some other modalities.

But, uh, you know, if you have a 13-year-old child and they're, you know, they've, they're emotionally distressed in some way and you wanna reach them and they like to text, my advice is start texting them.

Well, and sometimes. Texting allows you that, um, boundary that we talked about earlier where you need to step away and that just allows you to put that in there, um, naturally. Right? You know, you, you're just able to step away and not maybe say the things that would come out of emotion that you know.

Now, see, that's a great observation and a lot of people in my generation would be, you know, like, well, really? Yeah, yeah. It's like, that's right. There are actual values in texting.

Sometimes in conversation we start saying things in the heat of the moment we get, we get too wrapped up and we really should back off.

Texting kind of has that baked into it, that kind of temporal leg that we can extend by simply not texting 'em right back. Whereas in conversation, that temporal leg is often lacking. So you're, you're absolutely right there. There can be some real advantages of asynchronous communication technologies and some disadvantages of synchronous ones where it's just going too fast.

It's getting too deep. Emotions are getting too high, you know, maybe that's not best. So this again, all goes back to having some insight and some understanding about the person you're dealing with and what their preferences are and what. What might be the sort of hot button issues to avoid with them?

You know, I'm gonna sound like I'm, I'm crying here, but I'm going to for just a minute. Being a caregiver to someone who's struggling with mental health is. Constantly putting yourself, you're, you're having to think one step ahead of the person ahead, uh, next to you, and always thinking about, okay, how am I going to respond to them in order to make this a positive or not?

You know, not necessarily. Great. But, but a, a, a process that's moving forward rather than a standstill or moving back. And It is, it is tough. It is tough to, to constantly be thinking about that. And it's like you're playing a, a game of chess every day.

Yeah, the ch one of my colleagues used to call this like the walking on eggshells phenomenon, and I said to me, it's more than walking on eggshells. It's more like walking through a minefield where every time you put your foot on the ground, you have to stop and think like, is this where I should pla plant my foot, or should I move it over because the consequences could.

It and it's, it's, you said, exhausting. It's nerve wracking things that we would ordinarily take for granted in conversation. We, we can't anymore because it could trigger them. They could have an explosion or so, and so, yes, it can be very exhausting for caregivers and that's one of the fundamental challenges of being in a close relationship with someone who has a mental health problem.

Um, the problems don't take vacations. They, they, they're often there with us all the time and it can wear down. The most tenacious, strong person in the world. And again, it goes back to that idea of some time out, some care for ourselves, uh, so that we can take a break from that because it, yeah, it, it can be very, very exhausting.

And, and, and many people, let's be honest, there's many, many people at their, they just, they buckle under that load. And it, especially like in marriages where you have a mental health problem. That's the end of the marriage. They, they just cannot bear that relationship anymore or addiction. Um, the, the, where it's so strong, they just go, the only thing I can do at this point, I've been worn down so far that the only thing I can do is just exit this relationship and at least take care of myself and stand up on my own two feet.

'cause. I can no longer be, have this person in my life. I mean, I'm sorry to say, there are a lot of interpersonal relationships where someone has a mental health problem that conclude in that exact way.

Well, and I think that's a really good point to, to even address is that there does come a point where. You're, you have to have a permanent boundary up. Be if somebody, even, even if there is a mental health challenge, I mean, I remember thinking, oh, well, you know, they can't control this. Well, they're my kids, you know, for one thing.

And I don't, they weren't as, um. They weren't as difficult as, as other people that I've talked to about their relationships, but I could only imagine if it's gotten, if it got to that point where you would have to, in order for self preservation and not feel guilty about it, and just realize that you're doing the best you can with what you've got.

Exactly, and this is a horrible decision that confronts many people who are with someone who's got a fairly profound mental health problem. It might be a, um, schizophrenia, could be a severe case of dementia, serious cases of addiction. Those are the the big ones that will often drive people. With that though, I've, I've seen a lot of this with depression too, actually, which you often don't think of as, as profound as addiction to dementia or schizophrenia.

But in fact, the divorce rate for people who have clinical depression is sky high. And I had a graduate student once who was married to a gentleman with a clinical depression. I knew him. He was a very nice man actually. But she, she was talking to me on the phone and she just described this, um. She, she used this analogy of almost like a, like, like a parasitic relationship where the parasite and the depression, not the husband, but the depression was the parasite.

It just sucked all the lifeblood out of her. And she said, I, you know, at the time, I think she was like in her forties, and she said, I'm young enough that I can still envision a life ahead of me. That I could, that could be worthwhile. But I've come to the very, very difficult conclusion that, that life just cannot involve this person because it's just, it's making me lifeless.

I'm so warmed down, I'm so exhausted. I'm so demoralized by his depression that I, I just, and she's, I, I really do genuinely believe she had a strong, strong feeling for this man. There was no anger in here at all. It was literally done outta self-preservation. And, uh, boy, but as an outsider watching it, it was very, very difficult to observe.

Yeah. I, I couldn't even imagine. I mean, just the heart going out because you do, you know, there is that, that love. Even. And again, she was good at separating her, the illness from the person, you know, and I think that's the big biggest key is really taking a look at how you can separate the illness from the person. Well, Chris, I really appreciate you spending some time on such an important but difficult subject. Um, any resources that you can think of that would, um, you know, help people that are, you know, just trying to. Uncover or read or you know, understand a little bit more about how they can better communicate with their loved one.

There are, uh, the most states have a mental health alliance, uh, website that will have links to various resources. That people can turn to there. You know, the, in all honesty, re literature for caregivers is way, way behind, like just the general information, like the medical information and so forth on.

Mental health problems. So there, there aren't an abundance of res resources, but if there are, there, there have been some, uh, articles and chapters written. And so if you would do a Google search, uh, you and caregiver is the key word, caregiver, and then put in like substance use or depression or anxiety, um, what you'll find often are scholarly book chapters or even sometimes research articles that have looked at.

Things on everything from emotional burnout to social support or supportive communication. Um, problems like emotional contagion where we catch theirs. That's another key term to search on. And you can find, um, some interesting readings out there on the internet. Again, there haven't been. To my view major, um, sources of, uh, clearinghouse of information on caregiving, but the mental health alliance websites are, are, are pretty good, um, with some side links to tips for caregivers and, uh, you know, always remember that.

Caring for the self is so important. It is so hard to be of great value to others unless we are in our tip top condition ourselves. And people should never, ever feel guilty. And so part of looking for resources, for caregiving should be all, should be what are things I can do to make myself and fit and strong?

So it goes back to sleep patterns and diet and exercise and, and leisure and all the things you need. Never forget that. Don't lose sight of yourself, don't, don't consume yourself to the point where now I'm not gonna be a, a value to that person. It's such an important point.

It's such an important point and thank you for bringing that up. And I think maybe you need to be writing a book on this. I think if there's not too much out there, there might be an opportunity there, Chris.

I I will make a note of that. 'cause it is a sort of thing that I think there's a need for that to sort of assemble this in one kind of source where people can go out for clearinghouse of information.

Right. I, I agree with that. I, on the whole mental health thing in general, I think there needs to be a clearinghouse of one place, but that's a whole, that's a whole other topic. So. Well, I really appreciate you spending the time and, um, and I look forward to, um, actually seeing you've got another, um, uh. I think it's a webinar coming up too for the, um, families for, um, depression awareness where you're

gonna be talking about this.

So

yes. I'm looking forward to that. And I've got a book out on 

Oh, you do have a book? 

that deals with this. I've got a book on interpersonal relationships and mental health, and I've got a book coming out next year on conflict management in close relationships. So those would also be sources. It sounds like a sales pitch, but 

no, no, no. I. 

If you go to amazon.com and just go put, throw in my name, they'll pop up.

And I'll put a link on, on, um, for you to get it too. It's not a sales pitch when you're helping other people, Chris, 

so 

you. I appreciate that. That's, it's really, that's, that's the driving motivation for putting it together. It's really, this is about trying to make life better for other people as best I can.

Absolutely. Thank you so much.

You're most welcome.

Thanks for tuning into this way up. I hope you're feeling a little lighter, a little brighter, and ready to take on whatever comes next. Remember, the journey of mental health is all about progress, not perfection. So keep climbing and don't forget to celebrate the small wins. If you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who could use a little lift.