Breaking Cycles: Supporting Parents in Recovery and Their Babies

Every year, thousands of babies are born into the chaos of opioid addiction—fragile, frightened, and in need of care. Tara Sundem, founder and executive director of Hushabye Nursery, has dedicated her life to giving these babies—and their mothers—a fighting chance. Through her work, she has already saved over 1,000 babies, transforming not just their lives, but the lives of their families.Through her work, Tara reminds us that every family deserves support, understanding, and a chance to thrive. Her stories will move you, her belief will uplift you, and her mission will leave you with a renewed sense of what’s possible when care meets heart.

BIO: 

Tara Sundem, RN, NNP-BC, MS is a Neonatal Nurse Practitioner, educator, and advocate dedicated to supporting pregnant and parenting mothers in recovery from opioid use disorders. She is the Executive Director and co-founder of Hushabye Nursery, a pioneering program in Arizona that provides compassionate care and resources for families affected by neonatal abstinence syndrome (NAS).

Tara began her nursing career at Banner Children’s Hospital and went on to specialize in neonatology, earning her Master’s in Neonatal Nurse Practitioner from Arizona State University. Over the years, she has worked in multiple hospitals and practices across Arizona, providing care to the most vulnerable newborns and their families.

In addition to her clinical work, Tara is an adjunct professor at the University of Arizona, sharing her expertise with the next generation of healthcare professionals. She has been featured in news stories and invited to speak at local and national conferences on NAS, maternal recovery, and stigma reduction. Through her work at Hushabye Nursery, Tara is driving innovative approaches to care and education, helping families thrive while advocating for systemic change in support for mothers in recovery.

RESOURCES/ REFERENCES:

https://hushabyenursery.org/

https://www.facebook.com/hushabyenursery/

Transcript

They say that they struggle with substance use, they're pregnant.

We get that referral and we meet them with congratulations. We are

so excited for you. Um, our moms don't get told congratulations. They just get told. Why did you do that? Um, we, they're already down as low as they can be. 

Welcome to this Way Up, the podcast dedicated to supporting parents and caregivers navigating the complex world of mental health. I'm Andrea, and each episode we dive deep into the conversations that matter, exploring the challenges triumphs and transformative journeys of those facing mental health struggles within their families.

Whether you're here for expert advice, inspiring stories, or just a little boost to get you through the day, we've got you covered. So grab a cup of coffee, kick back and join us as we find the bright spots in the mental health journey because we're all climbing our way up together. 

 Every year, thousands of babies are born to mothers who struggle with opioid addiction. Today's guest, Tara Sandem, , who is a neonatal nurse and educator, has made it her life mission to give these babies and these mothers a fighting chance.

 As the founder. and executive director of hba Nursery, she has saved over a thousand babies and their families by bringing hope, compassion, and life-changing recovery to a population that's oftentimes disregarded.

Please listen to this if you want a heartwarming, uh. Story one filled with hope and positivity because Tara is that person. She literally is changing lives and making this world a better place. 

Well, good morning, Tara. How are you?

I'm great. Thank you so much for inviting me.

I am very interested to learn more. We've gotten just enough to wet my palette, um, so that I can dive deep into this with you. I'm excited about it, but let's go ahead and start by the story behind Hushabye Nursery.

Yeah, so I am a neonatal nurse practitioner, so I've taken care of babies for almost. Three decades. Um, I, that, that's my love. Um, in 2015 in our neonatal intensive care units, we started to see more and more babies coming into our hospitals, um, withdrawing and withdrawing from heroin at the time.

Now it's fentanyl, but. That opiate crisis that hit like 2010 didn't like open our eyes until 2015 and when you had babies with us for four months. Um, going through withdrawal was just hard. I am not proud of it, but when I was a bedside nurse and taking care of a baby that was withdrawing, um. I would get there the next day after working with them for 12 days.

I would get there the next day, early in the morning and be like, I already took that baby. I've done my time. I'm not doing it again. Because you have to hold them and you have two other babies in your assignment and when you leave, you feel like you didn't do a good job.

Oh.

You also have to deal with people with parents that are struggling with substance use. And at the time I really looked at those parents like, if you loved your baby, you would've stopped. I didn't understand it when Hushabye was started. It was to help babies go through the withdrawal process. Easier for us to have a place that had quiet, dark environment, um, with one-to-one caregivers, if that's mom and dad.

But we have nurses and, and volunteers to. Hold the babies 24 7 if they need it. Um, one mom explained to me withdrawal worst flu in migraine times a hundred. And that was a my aha moment. I'm like, okay, so we have a baby that has vomiting, diarrhea, um, fever, chills the shakes, high pitch cry, not able to sleep, and we put them in the neonatal intensive care unit, bright lights, beeping monitors. Not where you and I would go if we had the flu.

I mean, if I have the flu, I don't go to work.

Right.

go in our bedrooms, we turn down the lights, we get rid of all stimuli. These babies needed that quiet, dark environment. And so out of frustration of just not having the staff, um, also having staff that's trauma informed, but having staff that really wanted to care for this population, um. What was the trigger or the firecracker of going, we need to do something different. Did I realize that it was gonna take five years to get going and now we've been going for almost five years. Um. We still, you know, working on sustainability. If I would've known it was gonna take all of that, I probably would've went, oh my goodness.

But, uh, we're doing really good work. We've served over a thousand babies. Um, we're working with 136 pregnant moms right now that are either struggling with substance use or are being treated for opiate use disorder. They're probably stable, but. Their baby's still gonna be substance exposed. And so we have 25 babies are gonna be born in the next month.

Wow.

pandemic is not going anywhere. It is just strong. So

do you meet with the parents before their.

to,

we try to, our, our, our care model, or we call it the hush by formula, um, is meet families prenatally. So hopefully they. they. have a touchpoint with one of our community partners. They say that they struggle with substance use, they're pregnant.

We get that referral and we meet them with congratulations. We are

so excited for you. Um, our moms don't get told congratulations. They just get told. Why did you do that? Um, we, they're already down as low as they can be. There's no reason for us to not be kind and loving and treat them like they're family. And I would hope that if my kiddos were ever in that situation, if I couldn't do it, that I would hope that someone like Hushabye would be able to do that. So first thing we do is meet 'em. Congratulations. Then we start working with them. Do you have a phone? Do you have housing? Do you have food? Do you have transportation? As we start getting little bits and pieces of that together, then it's like, help, help them understand what their baby's gonna go through. They wanna know are they gonna get to keep their baby. So we talk to 'em about Department of child safety, um, all those expectations. And then we introduce recovery. We are you interested? They're so hopeless that. When we bring up, are you ready for recovery? They've already tried recovery. They have been in recovery. They have tried and tried and tried, and they just wanna know what to do, what's right for baby. Like, what can I do for baby because I know I can't do it for me. And so as they do little bits and pieces of our program, if that's jumping on a group to talk about anger management or smart recovery or Triple P parenting, they jump on that group and they meet. 12 other moms and dads that are in the same situation and they start building healthy community and understanding how they got to where they're at and given hope of, there's a way out.

Wow. Okay, so you started with Baby.

Started 

foresee that you would be moving into

parents?

Nope. I so started with Baby and you know, I, I said it. 2015. Big idea. We opened, um, November. 2020. So it took that long to get up and going, but we needed money and all of the things. But in that time, I really think that God had a plan that it needed to take that long because I needed to learn a lot of stuff. I was asked to be a subject matter expert at a conference and talk about how to care for a baby that withdraws. So Micah, I can do that. I wouldn't call myself an expert, but Sure.

I'll do that in the, in the conference there was a psychiatrist and a psychologist in the audience, and they said, both of 'em asked, what, how does this impact, um, adverse childhood experiences and what do you think the implications are to that?

And I'm like, I have no idea what you're even talking about and why the nursing fields. Why the medical field are not educated on how trauma impacts the brain and sets us up for, um, bad outcomes later on in life. Why we're not taught that, I don't know. But as soon as they told me that, I went home, watched the 15 minute YouTube video by Dr.

Nadine that talked about if you remove a baby from their mom. We actually are changing the brain of the baby. And if they have four more bad things, which our babies are born with someone in the household that has substance use, there's number one, usually poverty, number two. Now we're gonna put them in foster care, number three. Um, and say they don't have food. Number four. I went, oh my gosh, we have, so, okay, now we have to save the the family. Because we need to save the parents to be able to save the baby, really. And so then I learned everything I could about substance use

So within their first week of life, they can be set up for failure for life, if, if not treated

Set, set up for, I mean,

potential, I should say potential. Yeah.

well, and, but I think you see that in those families. Like I know growing up my dad was like, you can't date Chad, because of his family. You know,

grandpa, great grandpa, everybody was not good. And. That's that generational trauma

and us not knowing that.

And so when I heard that, it was like, okay, so we do a lot of that education to families. For them to have that aha moment of, oh my gosh, I was

born like that. And okay, maybe it wasn't me doing all the bad, it

was the fact that I had this trauma. Set me up for not good things. Now, can we overcome those outcomes?

We can, but we need to have stability. We need to have

someone that's gonna be there. And so learning all of that, um, learning more about substance use, understanding that, gosh, you a mom should never go cold Turkey. When she finds out she's pregnant, she will miscarry or she will, um, deliver prematurely. So I used to think that moms, if you love your baby, you would stop.

Right.

You know, why didn't 

that's probably common, right? 

You know, you, you didn't even care enough to do that. I don't know that I said it, but I definitely bought it. Um,

Tara, I'm just gonna say, it's amazing that you say that, right? I mean that you own up to it because you, you know, I think we've all had those, um, I don't know, maybe not the nicest thoughts, but they're coming from not being educated. Right. And then

and, and that is all it is.

It's the, the, and it is, I'm not saying ignorance. I'm saying ignorance that we, you

just don't know

and you don't understand. Now, some people, even my peers and colleagues, um, are stubborn and I wanna go. You have to read the data

and the data is right, and the literature and the studies and the studies show that babies do better with their parents. Guess what babies do really good at Hushabye the average stay for a baby in the neonatal intensive care unit to go through that worst flu and migraine times a hundred is 22 days. At a Hushabye it's eight.

Wow.

So when you and I have the flu, if you could tell me I could be better in one hour, I would want to go in that environment to be better in one hour.

So has Shaba is making a difference. But the other thing that we do is. Babies come to us. They deliver in the hospital, they come to us. Mom and dad can come with us. Mom and dad can get treatment

by 

Hmm

on south without having to leave their baby. So we have behavioral health

mm-hmm.

intersecting with medical, 

all under the same, same building.

And if mom and dad are still struggling, we're not saying that they can't be there. We are. Being trauma informed and understanding that they're just not ready yet. Is there a way, say a mom uses in the parking lot and she, she walks in and we know she's under the influence. She's not being dangerous, she's not being disruptive. She's just under the influence. I just, she's under the influence. I'm not gonna let her hold her baby. But I'm not gonna tell her she can't hold her baby. I'm gonna say, oh my gosh, you just had a baby. You're exhausted. Let's get you in the shower. Let's get you some food, let's get you some clean clothes. And people that struggle with opiates wanna go midnight,

Yeah.

let's put you to bed. And they get to be in bed by their baby. And I tell them, I'm gonna hold your baby. And you go nine

night when you wake up. You can take over, but right now we need to take care of you. Totally different narrative than someone comes into the hospital under the influence.

We make them leave.

Hmm.

make them leave and possibly overdose and die. Where I bring them in and I have Narcan. Everybody knows how to give Narcan. I have Narcan, the reversal drug for an overdose everywhere at Hushabye. I bring them in and when they wake up. I grabbed my peer supports. I have four peer supports, four individuals that now work for us that I met unwell, that we got well,

and they're raising their kids and just rocking it.

Oh,

So when we grabbed them, I don't know why I am getting emotional with this, but when we grab them. I'm like, go in and show 'em your baby. And they show, you know, we have ones that are went to kindergarten this year

and, and they're explaining, you know, I met Tara. I didn't wanna go into that meeting. They told me I should go in. And they explained like where they were and they're like, but look at me. And now I'm helping you. And that is not a care model that we've ever done. And. Those four peer support that work for me right now, you would want them. They are like the best employees. They, they do all want to, um, they want to get feedback, positive feedback.

They want, want to make me proud and oh my gosh, they're so, so good. So. Our care model works when they wake up and they hear that, they get that one little glimpse that maybe I can do it. And when they say they're ready, then we're going, okay, here's your options. This, this, this, this, this. If you go to this place, you might not get a phone. If you go to this place, boyfriend can't come. If you know, and we know all of those different places so that we're not giving them a piece of paper with tin. 10, you know, treatment centers we're calling with them. So we're doing a three-way, we're filling out the paperwork with them because they just used, they don't, they can't like fill out a 13 page form we're filling out with them. Um, we're setting up transportation, getting them in an Uber, maybe sending a peer support with them to treatment, sitting there with them, encouraging them. To go in and get well. And when you do that, they get, well, not all of 'em, but families that connect with us. Families that don't connect with us until they have their baby. We get at Hushabye almost seven out of 10 are get into treatment. That is an

Wow.

of liver. So we know what we do inside our four walls. Is magic because that is something that no one can say that in the behavioral health line that you're getting that many people successfully into treatment. They have a baby that's their firecracker, that's their want.

They're in love, and this is their time for going, gosh, you guys are gonna help me do all this, like. We really, I always say just do it for them, then have them do it. You watch them and then they do it themselves. So we just show 'em how to do it, teach 'em how to do it, and then they do it on their own. And it's such an easy thing to do, but it takes time

and has, Shaba is time, but.

it takes time and it also takes a group of people that are empathetic,

Yeah. 

don't believe in shame,

that believe that people will, uh. Is that a Diet Coke? Oh, 

Mm-hmm. 

I was like.

I was gonna say, I do like Diet Coke. We're, we're in the same line, but no McDonald's diet. I'd even be happier.

Tara, if we, I can make a whole podcast episode on that. 

Me too. 

sidebar. 

Sorry. 

no, I was the one that was like, wait a second. I think that's a diet Coke. That's ridiculous. Maybe I, okay, not, not to make light of this, but maybe I should get some, um, addiction recovery for my Diet Coke because it's so 

yeah, I could do the same. And if, and my peers are hearing this, they're going, yeah, Tara, you do need that. Yeah.

Oh yeah, mine too. I get, I get these, uh, tiktoks and reels all the time. My, I get, uh, I got a, um, a, uh, article from Forbes from one of my girlfriends. She's like, it's legit. There really is a reason why McDonald's Diet Cokes tastes better. I'm like, I've told you that.

Exactly. Exactly. So funny. So

funny. So. 

Yes. Side note. But the community that you are, have built and are surrounding these parents with, and I heard you say mothers and fathers, so it's not just the mother,

um, is giving them life, a life they never thought and not just one person's. You're giving that to two people and probably more.

Yeah. It's, it's something that, you know, initially I just wanna say the babies.

And now it's saved the families and we see families succeed all the time. I I have a mom that tomorrow we're gonna do a, a video of her story. She was a sweet mom that she came to us, just defeated, um, scared to death, was struggling with substance use and I don't know, I, I can't wait to hear like what she says.

Her aha moment was, but I met her like four days. Of, of not using illegal substances. Um, I think she came to us like on day two of, of, of that journey. She had her baby. And um, my team had said that, you know, she's doing amazing. She wants to breastfeed. And I was like, well, we have to get a normal drug screen if we can breastfeed.

I go, she really wants to breastfeed. And my team introduced that to her in saying. If you can be, well, 

if you cannot use, you can breastfeed. And she was like, I can. She did it and she hasn't used

since she her. She was reunified with her baby. She's raising her baby, she's working, she's doing everything. And you go, okay. My team actually introduced breastfeeding as a enticement

of if you're well, you can breastfeed and for, for nurses to. Have that compassion but also the smarts

and going, this does work if we, you know, 'cause our parents wanna be able to do something that no one else can do for their babies.

And we can't, we can't breastfeed 'em.

They can breastfeed helps with the bonding and attachment

and the brain development, all of the things. And this mom did get a normal drug screen. Took eight days to get out of her system, but got a normal drug screen, breastfeed her baby. Um. Baby went to foster care.

That was a long story. Uh, but after I believe four months was reunified and after four more months, DCS closed their case, that is a really short time for a Department of Child safety to be involved, um, especially in a mom that already had other babies that I believe her rights were severed. And

so to see her come so broken. And then to go, I think I can do it.

But that was, that was our staff building her up, our staff being able to go, you can do this.

So even if so, you don't just stop once you release the child. That baby and the mother, you're there for a longer period of time.

As, as long as they will have us. So our outpatient program, so the prenatal part and the postpartum are as long as they'll have us, it's not. It, it, a lot of our services are virtual, so if they jump on groups, it can be virtual, they can do phone calls with a therapist. It can do all of that. But I have some moms that have been working with us for four and a half years,

so they're, you know, um, some have had oopsies instead of a relapse.

We call it an oopsie. Um, you know, some did great. There was an oopsie. DCS got involved. Now we're going to court. We're doing all the things, getting 'em back on track. Um. Oopsie doesn't have to mean that you lose your baby, and oopsie means that you need more community, more supports. Um, so as long as they need us, we're there. If they say, you know what? At a year we're good. We don't need you, but. At all of a sudden, baby turns three and there's behavioral health or behavioral problems with baby, they can come back to us and we'll start doing the case management. It's like, okay, this is stressful for you, so you're at risk for relapse.

Let's get you in with our counselor and all the things, but let's get you in case management for that baby to figure out what, what service in the community we can help you fill out that 15 page paperwork. Let's do it together so that you're not so overwhelmed. They can do parenting classes. Um, we, we, we have programming up to a year of age, like for the babies. Um, not that we're pri providing care specifically to the baby, but more parenting. For the baby. So at a month and age, your baby should be doing this.

These are the milestones. At two months, at three months, they love to show their babies off. They, you know, when they're on groups, you have groups that have moms that are pregnant and moms that have three year olds. And these moms that have three year olds are telling the moms that are pregnant and scared to death what they've been through. What worked, what didn't work. They give them hope of going, okay, I want to do what they did. They're raising their baby. How do I do that? And that's, that's what we're able to do.

Every, every mom and dad's journey is completely, you know, individualized. You never know what one of 'em is gonna be. Ready for and up for

what the staff says at the right time, at the right place. I always tell my staff that, you know, if, if one of our parents is upset with you, it's probably not what you did.

It's probably you triggered them somehow. Maybe you chewed the wrong way, maybe you looked at 'em wrong way. Maybe you look like you know someone. Um, that our families have so much trauma that we do a lot of. Education to our staff members in trauma-informed care, understanding someone's journey, and just knowing that, you know what, today I am not going to be in that mom's presence.

This other person is going to take over. I'm not gonna take offense to it. I'm not gonna get upset that, you know, how dare she not want me to care for her?

And just realize that maybe she's having a bad day.

Yeah.

And I was the one, the first one that she was able to take it out on and okay, I'm just gonna go the other way. And that isn't, that's not trained in regular nursing school.

I don't think Tara that's been trained until recently, honestly, is that being able to look at things, um, from not such an egocentric place.

Yeah.

I mean, when somebody reacts to us, we react back

probably as, you know, a defense mechanism or learned behavior, whatever it is. And I just think that this discussion has recently started in the, you know, what, the last eight years maybe.

Maybe it's just when I started 

No, but it.

But I do th

still. 

Yeah. That we're like, wait a second, this isn't about me. This is about. Them.

And um, you know, I remember when my son, he's my oldest was, um, I don't know, he, he was probably like two months old and he was just really cranky and he was just screaming and, you know, all of this stuff.

And, uh, must have been a mother and, and. Some store said, gosh, I would be, um, really sad, or I would be really cranky when I get tired too. 'cause I said, oh, he is tired. And she says, I get really cranky when I'm tired too. And I remember thinking, well, yeah, yeah, I. Of course he's cranky, and I've always tried to remember that.

Like when I, when I'm with somebody and they're cranky or whatever, it's like, okay, what is going on? Even if it's, even if it's hard, especially when it's hard,

especially when it's hard

yeah.

It's, it's giving grace

and, and

Even when it's 

a breath

and, and going, it's, it is not you. They're having a hard day and we have a hard days.

We have hard days. I had a, a guest on a couple of weeks ago and he was, um, he focuses on behavioral health. I mean, mental health and communication and his whole thing was, trying to communicate and putting yourself in that other person's shoes and how difficult that real really is, right?

That's why I think when, at the very beginning when you had said, I used to think this way, like, how could you do this to your, to your baby? Why didn't you just stop?

Is that you were able then to turn it and say eventually and say, gosh, you know what? I didn't.

yeah, I've done that so many times. Like I had, I had been asked to talk about unconscious bias and me like learning about, you know. Bias. I'm like, I'm not judgy. I'm absolutely not. And I'm, as I'm doing the presentation, I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm awful. It was like holiday season and I'm getting holiday cards and every family is white, every family is, and I'm like, uh, yeah, that is unconscious bias.

Uh, it was, and so like being able to. I think just reflect and go, yeah, I did. That is, I guess it would opened my eyes and now I share it a lot because I know my peers that don't understand yet really do wanna do what's right.

I believe that

I, I, they went into the healthcare field to make a difference.

They didn't want to. Make a difference to be mean to somebody, but they don't understand that if a mom comes in and labor and deliver, and I've had this, um, and she is tweaking, she's like all over the place. She's babies coming out. She is off the bed. And I know I've been in those delivers and everybody's like rolling their eyes and if not appropriate words. Um, but then if you talk to that mom later on, she remembers. She just couldn't, she couldn't control herself because of the substance. And

it's like, you could see, you could, you actually were coherent to know that these words were said.

And I, I, I guess I wouldn't want like my husband or my kids to see me in a moment like that.

And I think I've, I, someone recently told me that. Act like someone's like your most per the people that you most look up to, or, or you, you value their opinion that in your actions, assume that every time you write an email or anything, would they be proud of you in that moment. And it's like, huh, that's that's actually really, really good. You know, when you

get upset on the road, would I want my kids to see me being, you know,

upset on the road? And it's like, okay, that's not necessary. Um, it hit.

Well, when you were just talking about like that mother that was tweaking and, and all of, and she's remembering these things, that's just reinforcing that, um, thought about herself is that I am

Worthless.

I'm worthless.

Yeah. That we've just gotten rid of their worth. And I, I, we really push, um, for everyone to understand that if a mom delivers in the hospital, she showed up. If a mom called, she called, maybe she didn't show up, but she called. If she texted, she texted at least. She didn't show up, but she did text any little thing.

She, she walked into the nursery? Yes, she was under the influence, but she walked in. I'm like, you have to look at the little winds. I always call 'em Little Ws To them. It's a huge win. And I always tell moms that. I'm like, let's get you a few little wins. Let's get you an id, let's get you a phone, let's get you, you know, some transportation. Let's figure all of that out and we're gonna get you, if we get all of those things, that big win is gonna be, we're gonna get you well in. Your baby's gonna go home with you. 'cause we're gonna have a home. We're gonna have a plan. You're gonna be well. Um.

Tara. That takes a big person though. It does because, and I'm just being honest here is I think I would become so protective of that baby. Right, and And you're looking at it that baby. out

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. 

you have to look at it and I, I mean, I would just be like, oh,

I don't know. There's the unpredictability and, you know, it would, it would be very hard to overlook that.

Yeah. We absolutely will not send a baby home if it's not safe.

Sure.

are there supports out there that we can put into place to keep that mom and baby together? There absolutely are. Not always do we have to get really creative. I mean, like we have, we have our favorite treatment center and usually we keep it very full because, because we'll be like, okay, do you have an opening?

If, if we can get the moms. Up for the rules that they have there. It's like that's, that's where I say to go. My one peer support took us five times to get her into the right treatment center, and now she's the one that works for us and does all DCS cases.

She had her two kids out of home. She was reunified.

She was raised in her three babies. She's doing amazing. But that's the one program that we do. But we know that, okay, we're gonna fill out the application. There's no openings right now, so we're gonna go to this other, other one. It's okay. It's not fabulous, but it's gonna get you by for two weeks,

and then in two weeks when we know these other one is gonna have an opening, you're gonna slide over and it's gonna work.

We know. Those supports that are out there. Hospitals don't know that because I, I mean, you just don't know of everything that's done in your community. And I think a lot of it, substance use scares us as a community. All,

everyone, um, mental health scares us

and these babies were not a priority. Now they're becoming a priority 'cause there's so many of them.

That's what's so 

And out of, out of necessity, we need to make them a priority, but why were they not a priority in 2010 when it, it took a long time. And now the cost of care, um, $80,000 for a baby to be cared for In the neonatal intensive care unit, we're about 10.

Wow.

96% of our families are on Medicaid.

Wow.

We've saved, we have saved the state of Arizona over $65 million just by caring for babies at Hushabye.

We've, we've now reached, we're probably close to about 11 or um, 1100 babies, but just a thousand babies. That's $65 million in cost savings. That's not even the cost of, we kept. 80% of our babies in home, only 20% went to foster care. So how much does that cost?

And then 18 years down the road, when this baby is in jail, incarcerated with substance use compared to the 80% that are going to college, they're working,

they pay their taxes. Um, it's a huge cost savings to implement. Something that really is not that hard. It's just hard to do something that's never been done in the country.

Right. Well, and that's where we get back to you said, you know, I don't think you're being critical of hospitals in any means,

but we have to learn. And you were instrumental in helping them understand that there is a need that needs to be filled.

Now, are there other organizations in other parts of the country that do similar to what you do?

And how would a, how would a, you know, a, a mother or a pregnant mother find an organization like this?

Yeah. Yeah. There's a few, um, Lily's Place in West Virginia. Bridges path in, um, Ohio, Maddie's place in Seattle. Uh, there's Jacob's Hope here in Arizona along with us. Um, all different but serve a baby that's substance exposed.

All of them are now becoming more and more trauma informed. Um, I don't think, I would think that I, I will say this.

We lead. Probably all of them in being trauma informed, but they are all focusing on it all, all getting there where they

need to be. Um, how do they get connected with us? Mostly the medication assisted treatment programs. So the methadone clinics is our, we have community medical services is the largest medication. Um, um, assisted treatment program here in Arizona. We have a really, really good, good, um, relationship with them. And then our second biggest referral is referral is our parents. 99% of our parents say that they would recommend our services to a loved 1 99.

So that does show with our referrals. They, you know, they see a friend that is still struggling, that now is pregnant,

and they're coming in, they're connecting us. Um, sometimes the friend doesn't connect with us until after baby's born. That's fine. Sometimes it's not until the day before rights are gonna be suffered. And whenever it is, we're stepping in, trying to help. Now, when it's the night before rights are gonna be severed. Is is it gonna be hard? Yeah, it's gonna be hard if we can do much, but we can connect them with the legal team that will review and try to figure everything out and, and do that last minute Hail Mary. 

Um, but if that mama comes in or that dad comes in, we look at it. You came in. Let's, let's help you

and let's figure this out. Let's make this, that, you know, uh, that you're not pregnant in nine months in the same situation. Let's make it that we get you, well, you're raising your baby. If you're pregnant in nine months, it's 'cause you planned it and you're excited for it. And this is where we're supposed to be. Let's make it that way instead of. If your baby goes to foster care, more than likely baby's out of home for six months. State of Arizona, 18 months is the average length of stay in the foster care system. Um, but say six months, that's a very short, short time for a baby to be out of home, which you hear that and you go short, really. Um, which it is a very short time. But say that, say everything goes great, they get baby back into their care. Um. We want to make it, that they have the support and they feel confident enough and they trusted us enough to be able to come back and go, I do need help with this. I, I need help with. I need rental assistance.

I just lost my job.

 Earlier you said. That a mother that struggled with substance abuse shouldn't go cold Turkey

Mm-hmm.

it could cause serious implications. Um, what should they do?

They need to get started on medication assisted treatment. So they need to get started on methadone or Suboxone.

Um, the ideal would be mom's struggling with fentanyl use or heroin. Um, connect with us. We connect them with the hospital and they go in and they do a medical detox. A medical detox is transitioning them off Fentanyl.

To a stable dose of Suboxone or methadone so that methadone or so that medication can make it, that they can parent safely, they can work, they, they can drive, they can do all of the things that the, if you, I think the way to explain it best is if you have diabetes, so say you go into a diabetic coma. And you go into the emergency room and they're like, oh my gosh, her blood sugar's a thousand.

So they start insulin. They do all other things, usually admit you and you meet with the dietician. You have to get stabilized. Takes a while for someone that comes into the emergency room with an overdose. We give them Narcan, we reverse the overdose, and if we're lucky, we give them. Here's some resources and they are discharged or they walk away the medication.

That's like insulin is methadone or Suboxone. So someone that is a diabetic that is on insulin. Some if they lose weight, if they exercise and they changed their diet, some don't need the insulin anymore. So when we sit there and go for a type two diabetic, usually probably didn't eat great. A lot of times you're overweight. with substance use made bad choices, but some were given a bottle of Percocet for a C-section, not told that she could be addicted, and within 30 days, found out that, oh my gosh, I am so unwell. And you go back to the doctor, you tell 'em you're not well, and they think you're drug seeking, but you can't parent your child because you're withdrawing worst flu, migraine times a hundred. Where do you go? You start going 'cause you're desperate to feel better. The shame, the guilt. That's where many of our families came from. I had a mom that had had two babies and I met her on our third baby. And her first baby was, no, her second baby was a C-section. And I was like, so how did we get here? She's like, I, they gave me Percocet. She lost her other two kids and, and the baby that she was pregnant with, we weren't in treatment yet. And so I had to explain to her why methadone? Why suboxone? What does it do? It truly is the gold standard of care. When people say, you know, you're gonna go to treatment.

This is another analogy. Um, someone taught me that if, if you had cancer and there was. Treatment that was 10% effective treatment that was 30% effective, and treatment that was 75% effective, but sometimes 95% effective, you're gonna pick door number three. I mean, you're gonna be like, I want that for someone with substance use, door number 1, 24 hour detox. When they come out, 90% of them, nine out of 10 are gonna go use again. If you go to a 28 day program, you do all of the therapy, you go cold Turkey, you get through it all. Only 70% or only 30% are going to be successful. If you go on medication assisted treatment alone, that is it. 65% are. It's gonna take,

if you add on therapy to that, up to 95% succeed. Door number three for someone with substance use, with opiate use, that's what you want. It has so much stigma around it. Um, and I was, again, I was this person that thought that methadone clinics were the legal way to continue a drug habit. You know, like you go in and you're high and you get more. And I'm like, why would you do that?

I didn't understand that. When you get started on that medication, it takes sometimes five to six weeks to get to a stable dose that you don't need it anymore. So think of insulin when you go to the hospital. It may take a week in-house to get you stable for someone with substance use, we don't put them in house.

We do outpatient behavioral health. But for a pregnant mom, if I can get her to agree to go in house, it's about seven days and we get her stable. Then if we can start when we're ready to discharge her, if we can get her en engaged with IDE services when she delivers this baby, that baby's going home with her. If we can do that.

Do they stay on methadone forever or is that a temporary? Um, I know I'm kind of going.

Yeah, so methadone is very much, again, like insulin. Some people can get off insulin if they change their diet, exercise, and lose weight. Some people on methadone, if it is their choice, um, can get off if usually you need to do all the therapy. All the

treatment. I tell my moms that first year postpartum, please do not even think about getting off. 

Um, 

right, right.

we have like, we lead the nation or lead the world. I think we're top. Four or five in the world for ma maternal mortality and morbidity and substance use is usually involved in why moms are dying. So that first year postpartum, I'm like, please don't do anything. We just want to get your hormones and, and

parenting and everything into place.

But then after that, as they're doing more and more therapy. They're gonna start itching away on their medication. They should be bumping up their therapy. So they're itching, they're

bumping, and they're making sure that they have what they need. Um, I have peer supports that one is weaned off, the other one is close to off five years.

Um, and the other one is like, I'm not touching it, 

I'm 

was gonna say, there's no shame in 

Yep. She's just like, I'm, I'm doing well. Why would I mess with this?

I've never done this. Well ever. 

And she'll probably be on it. 'cause she can work, she can drive, she can, um, I mean she's she's doing a fabulous job.

She can do everything with it. Yeah. She has to take a medication. Um, if we think of opiate use disorder as a brain disease and a chronic illness, which it is. They take a medication every single day so they can work, drive, do all the things, pay taxes. I have too much information, but I have epilepsy. I take a medication. It's a brain disease.

It's a chronic illness. I will never, ever, ever not have to take my medication. I do it so I can run Hushabye

so I can parent my kids so I can live in a house so I can drive.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Same thing. When you hear I have epilepsy, you're like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry, but you hear a mom that has substance use and we're like, you make bad choices. It If I could get everybody to think just a little bit more about that, and drugs are bad. Drugs do make you do bad things, but a lot of times if we get them, well, you would never believe. A well person being able to do the things that they've done while using substances. I had a daddy that was gonna do, before we were open, I was doing a pregnancy group. Such a sweet man. I met him and he was, well, he was stable on methadone and they were expecting their first baby, but he was going to go to prison for I think 13 years. And I was like, what are you going to prison for? And I'm like. you're you're like the model. I mean, he was doing everything right, right.

Working. He was doing everything right. And I'm like, okay, we need to like write letters. Who do I need to write a letter to? What do we need to do? Because you need to be there to parent your baby. And I'm like, and he had heard about adverse childhood experiences and he is like, if I go to prison, my baby's set up for even more failure.

And I'm like, yep, your baby is. And so, um, knowing that he had 26. I don't know if it was 26 felonies, but 26 things that he was on his rap sheet and I was like, boy, you really were a naughty boy when you, when you, and he goes, I was not good. And I'm like, he goes, but I never did anything like dangerous. He goes, everything that I was doing was trying to get well. I could only function if I had heroin at the time. He goes, it was just for me to be, well, that was it. It wasn't, I was getting high. It was that I could get up and walk around. I was like, okay. What he was gonna go to prison for the final, for 13 years was he was stole a, um, a a phone from the Apple store. And his getaway car was the bird scooter, and he got caught.

What's a bird scooter?

Do you know those electronic, um, scooters that everybody rides in and out, that you can get out in the co in the, like you rent them on the road,

Oh, 

you have them in, I know you have them in California.

They're like, they're either green or, but people are always riding them.

But

you rent them and it's not cost scooter. I mean,

Oh, okay.

it's just a little, it's a

little 

didn't have a chance. He didn't 

He had no chance And I'm like, that is what you are gonna use my tax dollars for. So we wrote letters. He gave data on adverse childhood experiences. He did not go to prison. Fluke, probably. But we had the data, we had the, he had the drive and he had the hope. To advocate and, and he was advocating for him, but he was really advocating for his baby. He was like, please don't do this to her. And I was like, you're right. He's like, do it to me, but not to her.

Tara, I think that is a beautiful way to end this. I mean. With tears in my eyes. I say, I mean, you are an angel. The people that are at Hushabye are angels,

and I hope that you can continue to spread the word because it's really a beautiful thing you're doing. 

Thank you.

so much. 

Thanks for tuning into this way up. I hope you're feeling a little lighter, a little brighter, and ready to take on whatever comes next. Remember, the journey of mental health is all about progress, not perfection. So keep climbing and don't forget to celebrate the small wins. If you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who could use a little lift.