Understanding the Power of the Neurodivergent Brain

So many neurodivergent kids grow up thinking they’re the problem, when in reality they’re carrying ADHD, anxiety, or bipolar symptoms no one ever recognized. This conversation digs into what that actually feels like through Arthur Williams’ story—growing up undiagnosed, masking to survive, and constantly being praised for traits instead of effort, which only widened the gap between who he was and who he thought he should be.

Arthur opens up about the pivotal moments that helped him finally understand his own mind, the difference between parental standards and rigid expectations, and why grace matters so much for neurodivergent kids trying to navigate a world not built for them. He also shares how he went from barely getting through college to becoming a peer mentor with The NAN Project, helping teens understand mental health, suicide prevention, and the power of lived experience.

At its core, this episode is a reminder that even when ADHD is loud, anxiety is relentless, or bipolar depression insists you don’t matter, there is a reason to keep going—and more people value your presence than you’ll ever know.

BIO: 

Arthur is a recent but proud Peer Mentor with The NAN Project. He started this work to continue

his goal of spreading awareness about mental health challenges with a neurodivergent voice.

He believes that a mental health diagnosis or comorbidity does not have to be a source of

shame, fear, or a life without determinism. Those of us who are “too much” are more than

enough in the right setting with the right support. That all genius exists in those people who are

willing to find the holes in their world, and their thinking, and fill them with something they

created if it does not exist. As a person of color, he aims to provide meaningful representation

and amplify the voices of neurodivergent individuals within his communities.

RESOURCES/ REFERENCES:

https://www.thenanproject.org/

Transcript

as a neurodivergent person, this is not an attack on me. It's just 95% of the people have no idea how my brain works and how it feels, and what I need to navigate as smoothly as they do, and so I have to come up against that.

Welcome to this Way Up, the podcast dedicated to supporting parents and caregivers navigating the complex world of mental health. I'm Andrea, and each episode we dive deep into the conversations that matter, exploring the challenges triumphs and transformative journeys of those facing mental health struggles within their families.

Whether you're here for expert advice, inspiring stories, or just a little boost to get you through the day, we've got you covered. So grab a cup of coffee, kick back and join us as we find the bright spots in the mental health journey because we're all climbing our way up together. 

Today's guest, Arthur Williams, is proof that brilliance oftentimes comes with struggle,

He is an incredible human and a big teddy bear and I. Really enjoyed our conversation. Arthur is a proud peer mentor with the NAN Project, which is an organization that uses peer mentorship to help bring awareness to mental health conditions, to schools all over Massachusetts. He continued his work to continue his goal of spreading awareness about mental health challenges witha neurodivergent voice.

He believes that a mental health diagnosis or core morbidity does not have to be a source of shame, fear, or a life without determinism. He says, those of us who are. Too much in quotes are more than enough in the right setting with the right support that all genius exist in those people who are willing to find the holes in their world and their thinking and fill them with something they created if it does not exist As a person of color, he aims to provide meaningful representation and amplify the voices of neurodivergent individuals within his community. 

 We are joined today with a very special guest, Arthur Williams.

I am, I feel so privileged to, um, be able to spend this time with you because you do so many selfless things for so many people and just coming out here and talking and being vulnerable about your story so that you can help someone else is, is, is just, I, I, I really don't know. It's a gift that, that, you know, many people cannot replace.

So thank you. Well, I would like to start with, um, a little bit about how you got involved with the NAN project, which I think is going to be a bit of your life story.

 yeah. Thank you for, saying all that. That was very nice.and it just means a lot to be validated in that way. Uh, I'll start this way. I have a comorbidity. So I have a DHD, I have, um, generalized anxiety disorder and I have bipolar two disorder.

 so. That's a lot. And a lot of times the symptoms, uh, sort of overlap or they seem similar and stuff. Um, but a DHD was a thing I had first. and it, it colored a lot of my experience as a, as an adolescent, into my teenage years. but I got into college. I got a full ride to college. And I was doing pretty well there.

I was declared biochemistry, um, and then my bipolar two disorder started to express itself when I was 19. Um,

Real

and that

typical, right? Is that typical about the time when it starts to, um, surface for a lot of, at least males is around the late teen years.

Generally between 19 and 21. and looking back, I, I could there are signs in my family. there's also the potential that I was showing signs of it actually a little bit earlier just because of some of the stuff that I was doing. but having bipolar two, which is, mainly depression and some, mania, in my case, hypomania.

So I'm not. Really a danger to myself and anyone else or, or need to be hospitalized or anything when I am, uh, experiencing that kind of mania. but it's still an issue. but experiencing that mania or that, uh, you know, depression. through bipolar disorder doesn't necessarily translate to, oh, you were expressing it at 16, you know, in your senior year.

I, I did some very, like, reckless things. but that's a, that's a sign of being like. Depressed, potentially like suicidal, when you're doing a lot of risky behaviors. Uh, and so mine wasn't drugs and mine wasn't self harm, like substance use or anything like that, and self harm, but it was reckless behavior.

 you know, just total lack sometimes of uh, uh, what's the word? I don't have the word on me, but like, uh, self-preservation there, it's, it's kind of a total lack of self-preservation. but yeah, so I also, I had that, I went through a, a very long period of depression. Grades dropped, just everything that I had built up, gone, uh, suspended from school, uh, uh, for poor grades and then.

Uh, later I found out that I was experiencing something called, uh, psychia, because I didn't have medication or diagnosis. And psychia is when you're cycling between, uh, uh, depressive and manic and there's kind of no. In between, right. So over the course of a two year period.

I would experience very, very few moments of being like stable before I went back into another. Um,

Boy, that's hard,

yeah, it was a lot. It was a very, very lot. And it's hard when you don't know what's going on with you. You can't tell anybody about it. You know, as a, as a, as a male who identifies as a man and grew up, you know.

With men. You know, stoicism is a big thing. Ideas about what weakness and strength are are big deal, uh, and a constant conversation. A lot of times it's just internal after a while, but it is a constant conversation. and I was just like trying to find my way out. and uh, throughout almost that whole period, I would say for about a year and a half of those two years I was experiencing suicidal ideation almost every day.

 Then I was fortunate to be able to break, break free of that and then get my, uh, diagnosis for bipolar two disorder, and anxiety disorder around a similar time. And then when I was 25, I was diagnosed with A DHD. Now I'm 30. so that is like the baseline of like what my mental health journey is. but if I could briefly say why I started, why I was looking for something like the NAM Project that eventually found it is because 

The same year that I was diagnosed with A-D-H-D-I started working with kids on the spectrum. So I was learning about, you know, being neurodivergent, what that means, things like that. While at the same time working with kids with severe disabilities, um, I was a one-to-one paraprofessional, which meant that I worked one-on-one with one child every day.

And I was with him for four years and it was a very incredible experience, just like seeing the parallels and things of that nature. and ultimately kind of seeing how blessed I was in that, you know, the greatest difference I felt. Between me and the, the, the child that I was working with and the kids that I would, you know, because I would also facilitate in the classroom a bit, was that I had so much more agency over my life, 

Um. Anyway, I was working with a person who was supposed to give, um, the kid I was working with services, and they told me something I didn't know. After a couple of years of working with him, which was, he has autism, but before that he's diagnosed with a, a developmental delay. So it's twofold. And he had seizures, and the seizures every time he had them would cause regression in his skills and his, the, any abilities that he learned on top of just the natural aggression that happens with autism.

When a skill is not learned that well, I mean, we would go through a whole week and he'd pick up a skill and then after the weekend he'd come back on Monday. It's like he never learned it. Um, and she was saying that there's, there's a chance that he'll just never be able to learn the stuff that we were trying to teach him.

And I never thought, I, it never occurred to me. And I was like really sad about it. And I think it made him really sad. I really saw him, he kind of dipped and it just occurred to me that, you know. Because he doesn't have that agency, it's up to me to decide a way, to like set the tone and set the vision for what he could do and what he could be.

And I have to do that for everyone. Him, but also every part of his support system. All the people that I was a liaison for as his representative. Um.

sounds like that sense of purpose. That you were able to recognize that you had a sense of purpose and then that gave you, I don't know, responsibility and um, maybe sight for why you're here and why you go through what you go through.

yes, yes. Thank you for that. so yes, so that happened and I thought, well, you know, there's a, there's a, I still wanna work with kids, but. A and there's a greater conversation to be had about around this. How do I kind of set a vision for more kids and what's like possible? some of that is giving information and then some of that is just like standing up and being like, this is who I am and what I've been through, and if you talk to me, I will give you something valuable, whether now or for you later, I will contribute to.

Your ability to advocate for yourself and take steps to become the person you know yourself to be in a way that my kid could not do for himself without me. and so I found the name project, the ability to go to schools all over Greater Boston, share my story, have q and as, connect with kids in a broader and deeper way, of like.

Ages between middle school and high school, and even some like older, you know, youth groups, organizations, things like that, city halls stuff.

can you take us back to, I wanna go back to you, you, as you were developing as a young boy, and, you said that you had a DHD and that's probably the first thing that, that, that, surfaced for you. But you weren't diagnosed until you were 25 with A-D-H-D-I would imagine that, not being diagnosed with that created.

A lot of anxiety and some of that turmoil that you were feeling. What do you wish, and I know this is a hard question, but the people around you, what, what do you wish they would've been able to see? And I only ask this because we aren't all educated. You know, as parents and caregivers, we go into it, we don't know.

Um. Shoot. We barely know how to hold a baby when we get it, let alone all of the things that are, are out there. But what kind of things were transpiring in your life that you look back now and say, huh, that might have been a clue that something wasn't quite right, um, that needed to be treated earlier on to help your journey a little bit, um, be a little smoother.

I think I wish, and I know this is kind of like a weird thing, I wish that I had been praised so much more for. How hard I was working over an intrinsic quality that was being expressed because of how hard that I was working. I think oftentimes people with a DHD, it, it can be that they are gifted with something.

 I, I was never diagnosed with that. I was never sh it was never, you know, that's not something I could prove with documentation or anything, so I don't like claim it. but there's a likelihood that I would be something called, uh, twice gifted. In school, as I understand it, there's two versions of that.

You're gifted, but your disability hides it or you're, you're gifted and your gift hides the disability. And so I think mine was my gift hid the disability. So people go, oh my gosh, you're a genius. You're so smart. You're so intelligent. That would feel good. but what that validated was an intrinsic.

Trait or quality that was expressed through not only the kind of work that I was accomplishing, um, and the level of work that I was accomplishing, but the way in which I accomplished it. Right? So you're a genius. I never saw a genius as like, oh, you, you like work really hard to come to like, you know, uh. Incredible results. It's like a genius is a person that comes to incredible results in a way other people like can't really fathom and it seems like kind of easy for them or very easy for them. Um, so that, that for a long time until I was about like 11 and I started to undo that, that colored a lot of like how I saw myself in.

How I felt I needed to act. Um, and so instead of going like, yeah, I'm working hard and like I struggled a lot for this, although I had fun. It was more like, and okay, and so now I need to act like, uh, everything's good. I need to act like nothing is too hard for me. Nothing is impossible for me because isn't that what geniuses right?

Um, that I'm, that not only am I going to be extraordinary, I'm extraordinary right now, I'm gonna look extraordinary for the rest of my life because isn't that what genius is? Um, and so, uh, isn't that what great intelligence is? Um, you know, is only much later in life that I, that I realized that that's not quite accurate.

You know, my mother-in-law, um, who, uh. Was was very insightful. She told me when my kids were young, she's like, praise the effort. And she would say that, praise the effort, not the outcome. Um, or you know, because when you do have a talent, that's what you identify as and they're, you're already stopping up here.

You're right here. And I think it's not validating the struggle to get there.So I think that's great advice.

Yes, I think so. To your point, uh, earlier, you know, yes, not having a diagnosis caused a lot of anxiety. You know, most of that was related to, 'cause you don't know, you don't think different from other people till you find out that other people don't think the same way as you. So that was me. So, so I'm thinking for a very long time I'm thinking, yeah, you know, I deal with these things.

Everybody must be dealing with things. And as far as I could tell, I'm the only one having such a hard time. Um, and so I was masking a lot to kinda look like I was in control, that I was just kind of. Figuring it out like everybody else. But I was working desperately in the background trying to catch up with, like, one of the things that I had an issue with was social cues.

Sometimes I still have that. Um, just trying to learn like, not only like how I'm supposed to respond, but like why do people do, I don't understand. Um, subtext, uh, you know, being. Cool and calm and not being too much. And, but also in, in classes, like you come in, you didn't do work, and it's like, uh, I didn't do my homework today.

When in actuality you're like, you're, you're, you're flipping out on the inside. Um, so that caused me to look for outlets, um, and, Those outlets. Uh, were not always healthy, 

 when I was a young person, reckless behavior was like, when I got a car, I just driving way too fast, you know, just daredevil type stuff. If it was raining, I'd go out, do donuts in an empty parking lot. Um, I think there was a time that I was out with my friends and.

I just like, uh, I was in a Galleria, there's a hole in the floor about a story up and it just kind of dropped through the hole and landed a story down. Yeah, they were freaked out. Um, one of the, the one of the people that I was with is a young lady and she slapped me. She was like, don't ever do that again.

And it just like, you know, I just wasn't all there. 'cause I needed something to like, push through all the anxiety and frustration in the, the way I was. Um, contorting myself to fit into a society that was just not made for me

Hmm.

in multiple ways. I mean, I'm a, I'm an African American man, so, you know, there's that.

Um, and, but I'm also, I'm neurodivergent and I get, I get. I argue about this a lot with people, or it's like controversial, but I find that it is easier to navigate as a black man in America than it is to navigate as a neurodivergent person. Um, and so, you know, because I understand why people do what they do, think about me the way they do positive and negative as a black person, but you know, it's not, it's, it's, it's aimed at.

Hindering me and aimed at helping me, right? There's kind of no in-between, but as a neurodivergent person, this is not an attack on me. It's just 95% of the people have no idea how my brain works and how it feels, and what I need to navigate as smoothly as they do, and so I have to come up against that.

So as an adult now you can advocate for yourself, right? You, you have the mental capacity to do that, but as a child. That's gotta be extremely difficult. And as if you could, if you could tell a parent that has a child who is suffering with A DHD early on, um, in addition to praising them for their efforts, what other things would you say to help that child understand how their brain is different without making them feel, um.

I dunno, self-conscious about it or um, or feel the struggle.

Well, I'll start with, uh, like an anecdote. So when I was in third grade, it came to everyone's attention that I needed glasses and I had no idea my eyesight was poor. But people saw me squinting and things like that, and they were like, does he need glasses? I got tested. I need glasses. I didn't want glasses.

No one I knew had glasses except my dad, but I just felt that like glasses were not cool. None of the kids had glasses, so I was crying about it. Like legitimately tears. I just didn't want it until I wore them and I could see, and I still didn't like them, but the shift between things being blurry, but being able to function and having clarity. Knowing what, and like knowing what's functioning in a functioning with clarity, I'll say was, was a huge change, night and day difference. You know, it was important. And after a while I had no problem with my glasses. When I was able to see people waving across the room to me and see what was on the board and not have to ask so much what's happening around me.

Right. Um. To just be able to navigate a little bit better, even if I'm not understanding what I'm seeing, because I can see it and start to make some. Guesses around it. Um, so it's also hard for parents too because, you know, glasses is, there's a precedent for that. It's, and it's very obvious too. Your kid can't see 10 feet in front of them or two inches in front of them.

They're, they're farsighted or they're nearsighted. Right. And it's like obvious after a while, it still took them until third grade to see that with me. And I don't know if I was developing that. If I, if I developed it recently or whatever, but there is kind of a gradation that happens, right? There's a kind of slow regression that happens until it's obvious that it's regressed to a point that glasses are needed.

Um, and so for parents it can feel like, you know, uh, if one person touches the, the leg of an elephant and one person touches the tail of elephant in the trunk of an elephant, and they all describe. What they're feeling, will they understand it's an elephant, eh? Probably not. Right? Um, so it's hard. It's, it's hard to, on both sides, right?

I always like to say that like, you don't experience systems and symptoms and difficulties in a vacuum. Um, so how. Can you, how was I made comfortable? I, you know, I didn't like it and it was confusing and weird for me, um, to find out that I did not think the same way as other people, but I was always celebrated for the perspectives that I had just coming from a different place.

Um, and how like that is helpful. That is meaningful. It's. Thinking the same way as everyone else is not really as important as contributing a helpful perspective or something illuminating or just something interesting and curious. Um, so that was one way that, uh, was just kind of embedded in, in how I was raised.

Um, or I was celebrated for thinking a little bit to the, uh, adjacent to other people.

do you think that you, you said that, you know, it doesn't, it, it, it degradates so I'm seeing your life as, you know, the, the child that maybe didn't do their homework or didn't do something else, and then all of a sudden it moves to. Reckless behavior in high school. Um, and then you get to college and now you are, you know, failing out of, out of classes and such, even though we know you're, you're brilliant.

Um, so for a parent, I would think looking back on it is okay if something, if a child is doing some of these behaviors, don't assume that they're behavioral. Assume that maybe they might be challenged with something and, and you need to dig a little deeper because I think as parents oftentimes were, we're confused.

Is, is the child just acting out, um, because they're, you know, trying to be naughty? Or are, are they trying to communicate something that they don't have the wherewithal to be able to communicate?

Yes. Um, so one, I wanna correct degradation. It, it doesn't mean what I said, I meant to say degrade. Um, uh, just to, just so people are not lost when they're like degradation, regression, but it's, it's, uh, it's, I'm saying that the. In that analogy, eyesight was degrading. Um, you could also see it as a regression depending on how you're looking at it.

Um, uh, yes. You are talking about how, how I think the idea of watching a child have a challenge or a young person have a challenge, and immediately being like, well, you're not doing what you're supposed to do, has to do with having expectations of how you're. Child should be acting, and you could see it even when you have it with other people.

And then find out that you are wrong about your assumption or that narrative that you're having. Um, and I just like to make this distinction. I find, uh, I find diction very important because I say, well, you need to have expectations of your child. Um, and I disagree with that. You don't need to have expectations because you are defining for them what they should be and how they should act.

You need to have standards, though. Standards allows for grace because you can, you can be below them, you can reach them or you can exceed them. And it is all fun because you can work, you can work with that. Expectations though is you either become that or you don't. So when you look at a, when you look at your child through the lens of they either.

They are either becoming a thing or they're not. Suddenly it's either very positive or very negative. The the binary of that isn't difficult to navigate. It's impossible to navigate. You either are or you're not. And no one is that simple. And that frame itself is very simplistic. Um, so I have had to do this with myself 'cause it's, it's. My, I didn't have that kind of support with my parents for a variety of very good reasons. Um, but. Am I, instead of going, am I doing what I'm expected to do? It's like am I living up to a standard that I've set for myself? You can do the same thing with your kids. If your standard is integrity and diligence and compassion, then when you're having a conversation with your kid and they're talking about, you know, oh yeah, I, I read this book, but then you go pick up the book and it's got no creases in the spine.

Well, they just lack integrity. At that point, and that's a conversation they're talking about, you know, I don't care about this person or that person. I hope they X, Y, and Z. Well, they, they're lacking compassion in this moment. And there's a conversation that needs to be had about that instead of just being like, okay, so my kid's a jerk.

Right. Okay. So my kid is lazy. Um. That is, I think, the, the best way that I have been able to look at myself, the people in my life, uh, the kids that I've worked with and been able to go like, okay, and so how do I back away from just being angry about the fact that something is not happening, uh, or something I feel should be happening isn't, and move into a space of, and so what actually is the.

Problem, which is more to say, what is the antecedent that brought this behavior and what should the consequence that I present be as a person guiding a younger person or even a peer, or even my parents, right? Um, and that is how I, I would say, is a, is a really good way to just start the process of having conversations with, uh, you know, your kid, your young person, um, and, and.

Move away from this thing that could make them feel unsafe in conversation. Uh, which is, you're not what I want you to be. 'cause that message does get come across a lot, at least has for me in my, uh, in my raising

I think that message can come across without even the words, right? Sometimes it's just the actions.

hundred percent.

So you went off to college and, that's when, uh, you were diagnosed with, um, bipolar two. What kind of things were happening, and your, were your parents aware of what was going on in, in your first couple years of college and how did you navigate that? I mean, 19 is not very old.

So. I mean, when I got to college, I was doing, I was doing really, uh, okay, here's the duality I was talking about that glasses versus no glasses and why it was so difficult for all of us to figure out what was going on. Right. Um, 'cause I had never heard about depression. Literally never heard about depression until I started having these symptoms.

And I was looking into it 'cause I was like, I don't know what's going on with me. And it seems to be, it's not resolving itself and it seems to be more than just, I'm sad or I'm weak and I need to figure it out. Right. so I had a hard time in high school. I graduated decent GPA, you know, um, I was at the, you know, what was, at least at the time, considered the number one high school in Boston, Boston, Latin School.

Great. I got a full ride to, uh. Uh, state College, uh, UMass Boston because, uh, when I took my A-S-A-T-I scored in the 98th percentile, I got all fours on my aps, uh, and I was like, great. So, you know, I'm skipping history 1 0 1 and English 1 0 1.

Fantastic. so I go to school and I declare biochemistry because I had initially wanted to be a lawyer like my dad was, and I just realized that kind of wasn't for me because my curiosity laid more in the world. So I. I was, I did well in classes, physics, bio biology, chemistry. at least I understood the content enough.

Uh, so I did research and I found that biochemistry at the time in 2013, and it still is this, but was a very, it was a growing field. and, uh, with high pay, I could go into research just what I wanted to do. And UMass Boston at the time was newly receiving grants for, you know, uh. Uh, advancements that they were making in research.

You know, they're the only state. Research school, which is still true. Um, so I was excited. I was like, oh, at a certain point I'm gonna get access to new equipment. Um, and, and like more up-to-date equipment in studies and things. There's opportunities to research and um, there's a program called the McNair Program there, which was, which would allow people to do research experiments alongside postgraduate students.

So at 17, at the time, I was ready to like. That was my path. And then I was like, I'm gonna get my master's and I'm probably gonna get my PhD in something, but let's get the bachelor's first. Figure that out. So I had a five-year plan and I presented that and my dad was like, okay, so that is, that is before knowing about the A DHD and all this stuff and everything, right?

But the bipolar disorder, the symptoms had never presented themselves. And so. I had glasses on to a certain extent, but glasses came off because I started having my symptoms. And how that presented itself was I was already struggling a little bit in my, in my latest, um, you know, I went from getting like, mostly a's to getting like a few more b's, uh, I think like one C or something.

And it was weird, but I was like, well, maybe I just. I didn't have it. You know, I have to re-figure out like how to, you know, do my, manage my time and everything. Uh, but I did get into that McNair program. And the very first like real meeting we had where I was meeting my peers in that way. And we were gonna talk about, you know, um, what we were getting ready to do.

You know, I was, I was halfway through school, uh, by that time, halfway through undergrad by that time. And I was sitting at this table and just this overwhelming sense of I absolutely cannot do this for another five years. Hit me. Just in that, just in this moment where I kind of hit a peak of like I've, and I've done literally all the things educationally almost that I had set out to do since I was like 13, actually 11.

'cause my dad was a big part of the plan too, to like, and now we're, and now we're, I'm being primed for PhD at this point. And it was just too much. I just, I just. The depression just hit me like a ton of bricks. Um, and yes, it was like impossible to, how do you explain that? How do you say to your parents, you know, I love you.

I feel loved. I, I feel taken care of, you know, I've been able to do so well. Um, I have a good life. I have a girlfriend and I'm so sad. I, I, I, I don't know what's going on, but I'm so sad and I don't know, you know, I need to be away. I, I can't see people, I can't talk to people. I'm having trouble getting up and brushing my teeth and just things I'd never, you know, and my parents did not really know because again, I was masking a lot.

And trying to hide the fact that this was happening to me. I was like very guilty about it, shamed about it. 'cause my grades were, you know, over two semesters my grades were. I went from like a three point something to a 1.8 and I got suspended. And so then I couldn't go to school. Uh, and at 19 I had to pick up my first like, real job, which was, uh, you know, I was working at a Dunkin Donuts by my house for 1250, uh, 1225 at an hour at the time.

Um. It was, it was tough to not be able to advocate for myself because I felt like I didn't deserve it. 'cause I was just unworthy because of how I, what I was bringing, what results I was getting. And then to also just truly not know. I didn't wanna make my parents feel bad because they did nothing to, for the level of sadness and frustration and everything else, but they did not do anything.

Um, and, uh. I also did not have the words for it. I had actually no vocabulary for it, which was shocking for everybody. 'cause I was, I, I was that kid that read the dictionary when he was like eight, you know what I mean? Like, I like just, uh, just trying to communicate better. Um, so yeah, so it was hard. It was hard for them for sure.

I was lying a lot as well. Which, which obfuscated things a lot. It made things very, the, the mist of what I was going through was made even thicker because I wasn't telling the truth.

I think that's the big thing about depression is that there is no rationale for it. And so, um, I think oftentimes. Um, when you're feeling bad like that, there's also this guilt that goes along with it of, I have no reason to feel this bad. I have no, what am I complaining about? People have it worse than me, or whatever that is.

And, um, it, it, it's, it's a very sad place to be. 'cause depression, you're right. Thing, everything could be going. Perfectly well from the outside, but what you're feeling is, is is just dread.

It's,

What was the turning point for you of where you realized that you had to take some action and was it that somebody else, did you incorporate other people into this, or were you kind of doing it yourself?

I think it was kind of twofold. I mean, I had an experience where the second time I was suspended from from school for poor, uh. performance. I went to, there's a, there, you know, there was a free, like counselor's office type deal. Uh, and I went there because I just was like, like the same day I found out I was on campus.

You know, some weird thing happened where, you know, whatever. But I didn't make the cut. That's, that's what happened. Um, and I went there and I was like, I just really need to talk to somebody and talk to the secretary that was there. The secretary was just a young woman. I think she saw like. Student work or whatever that's called.

Um, and she was like, yeah, sure. What's her name? Gimme your id. And she went and she said, oh goodness. You know, you're not, you're not in the school. You've been withdrawn. Um, because of that, you know, you, you're not able to see the counselor. Like, you just don't have access. And I was like, wow. You know, that is a punch in the gut.

Because I had been keeping myself from going here. Like I just couldn't bring myself to go there until that point. Uh. And I was like, okay. And so this moment, this, this, this particular moment was a. Big low point, but it was also the reason why I'm not getting this help isn't because I failed in school.

It's because I did not ask for help throughout the entirety of this process. It's a very clear distinction to me because she said, you're withdrawn and so you can't see somebody. Not you have a 1.8 and you can't see somebody. Right. So literally just being enrolled would've been, would've given me the access.

 The other thing that started, uh, that helped, I didn't really incorporate people into it. I'm not gonna lie. Uh, but I, I have a cousin who, he's like my big brother, and I'm the oldest of three boys. So it was nice to have a big brother, you know. but he would, he was just like. I need to give him something.

And he was also trying to do his own thing in the community. So he took me around to do poetry. he was like, you got the words, man, you have a talent. You should use it. And I was like, okay. You know, I didn't feel like doing anything, but he would come, he'd be like, we're going in here today.

Get dressed. Brush your teeth. It doesn't matter, but you just go up there, say something, have you written anything? Write something. Uh, so we can go to this open mic and you can perform and do some stuff. And so he made me a part of his, you know, he was getting very successful with, with his, you know, poetry within the community.

And he just kind of dragged me along with it, uh, which was great of him. and the unintended consequence of that was I was starting to build a vocabulary. Based in imagery and metaphor. Similarly around, and sometimes, you know, a lot of it thematic too around, um, what I was experiencing. And I also kind of learned how to polish the rawness of it or the jaggedness of that, which makes it so hard for people to deal with because of what a poet's responsibility is.

Which is to, which is to. Take difficult things or anything really, but in this particular case, take difficult things and make them beautiful enough that you can present them to people and they appreciate. And so that helped me a lot. Um, just the, almost like a personal therapy of like, and now I'm talking about it and people are validating that.

But, and then to then get to the point of like, and now I'm sitting with a therapist and I can tell a therapist what I feel. Even though I had not built the strength of, you know, I've been taught like I feel statements, which is very common with men. I was able to move away from like. You know, just speaking in a lot of like, action, uh, instead of saying like, man, like.

 but somebody would be like, Hey, are you good man? And I'll be like, yeah, man, I just lost my job, or whatever. And they'll be like, dang, like, are you all right? And it's like, well, I'm good man. I just, I just gotta go. I just gotta, I just gotta buckle down. I just gotta go get to, I just gotta get this paper.

I just gotta, whatever. You know what? I think I'm just gonna go to the gym. I'm a, I'm gonna, I'm just gonna, I just gotta pump it out the gym. Good. But actually that, that is a reassurance. To the person talking to me until it's not. Until you realize, I actually don't know how you feel. Are you frustrated?

Are you sad? Are you depressed? Are you desperate? Are you panicking? Right? It's, it's an impossible. You just know that as a man, I'm going to do something, and that is a sign of I'm not down and out yet. I'm not defeated or beat down yet. Um

what I'm hearing you say there is as people who are trying to help somebody that they love that is going through a tough time, is that we've really gotta dig a little deeper because oftentimes they don't have the. The words to share, and sometimes resilience can actually just be a mask for something that is going on deeper.

And they're

Mm-hmm.

lying, as you said.

Yeah, I think it's not even necessarily lying all the time. I mean, sometimes it's just denial. It's, it's the inability to cut through the thing that's like sometimes the thing propping you up is a thing that's keeping you from getting better, or I should say getting healthier. Um, you know, sometimes like in like inside you is the thing that's gonna, that's gonna not only like really. Revive you as a person in a lot of ways, but make you better for the people around you. But it's just surrounded by like, like there's a, there's a landfill full of crap to get through, to get there, and it takes a long time to do on your own and without the right tools, if you're by yourself and you are using your hands and feet, well. You might never get there, you know? but you find somebody who connects you to a bulldozer, you know, maybe that's different. so sometimes I think it's just an inability to access it. Also, I think sometimes people use kind of the wrong word when they talk to, I think your blank blank, blank. As opposed to, I feel like there's an issue here and here's what I'm seeing that makes me feel that way.

So accessing another person's emotions. Often involves modeling. How to present those emotions as well. I feel like we all kind of miss out on that. Sometimes. We'll say what we think and what we feel. You're driving me crazy when you do this thing, blah, blah, blah. But it's really like, I feel so frustrated when you, like, as a person with a DH, adhd, I forget stuff a lot.

Talking to my wife will be like, I feel really frustrated when you like, you know, it's been two weeks you forgot to do, you forgot to clean the bathrooms like you said you would. And, and I'm like, oh. It just, it's not on purpose. I'm not like going like, ah, I don't care what you want and what you have to say, but just the nature of like how I'm functioning, but I'm not keeping it together means that the bathrooms went unclean for two.

But I hear that and then I prioritize doing the thing because she has expressed that and like, I feel bad about that. Let me go rectify that. Feeling ashamed is not good, but feeling some shame is appropriate. So I felt some shame and I cleaned the bathrooms right. Um,

I I love that feeling ashamed. Is not appropriate, but feeling some shame is appropriate. I think that's good. That ashamed piece is what digs us deeper and deeper. But it's okay to feel bad about something to make a change.

Yeah, I think ashamed is something you do to yourself. Shame is something you get from other people and you don't have to agree with why you're being shamed, but. And we all have different ways of filtering it. Some more healthy than others and related to it's complicated. Um, but at the same time, you choose to accept the shame being given to you and you choose to act on that if that's what you wanna do.

And you choose to not accept the shame being given to you and choose not to act on that. Um, but it is something within your control and it's external. You can internalize. Being ashamed is just you taking something and completely internalizing it. Um, and I think there's a distinct difference between those two things, and one is much more positive than the other if you do something productive with it.

Right. And shame is always kind of a, you know, you hear it and it's always kind of like a, a yucky thing. Like I hear shame and I'm like, oh, I don't want anybody to feel shame. But at the same time, it is okay when you do something that's that, that you could change and you, you take some responsibility for, but you don't internalize it, I think's a big thing.

Yeah.

Right. Yeah.

So I could probably talk to you for the next 24 hours because you are so. Interesting.

Thank you.

You're so interesting. You have so much insight and you're so giving with your thoughts, but I can't because, um, I just can't. So I'm gonna take us to the, the Nan Project and what you do there 

I'd love to hear about what it is the N Project does and how you are helping others through your lived experience.

Yeah. So the Nan Project, uh, one was, was founded by a family who lost, uh, a family member to, uh, suicide. they found similar to kind of my experience, that there were signs that they did not see, with that person, that person is Nancy Kavanaugh. so they did not, they did not see these signs in Nan until.

Uh, for a while. Um, and then even after a diagnosis, they did not see the signs that led up to the suicide itself. And so they felt, oh, you know, we o other people should. Not go through this if they can. And how we can do that is present the signs. Um, and it's been found that young people are more likely to see signs in their peers, well before any of the trusted adults in their life.

Um, so we go to schools, we go to middle schools, high schools, we go to, you know, places that help youth in any way. Um, and we talk about. particular signs. We focus on depression, anxiety, and suicide prevention. Um, and we do that mainly by having peer mentors like me present our story of our mental health journey, really at that time in our lives.

So we're talking middle school, we're talking about our middle school experience, talking in high school, we're talking about our high school experience or even transferring, you know, that transition from being a senior to college. You know, what's prevalent? Uh, and then we talked to them about, here are warning signs you can see in yourself and other people.

So like, my example was I was not getting up and having a hard time brushing my teeth. I did not see that as a sign of depression. I saw that as a sign of laziness because it never presented. I was never presented that, that when stuff like that happens, it's very likely that you're depressed. Right. Um. And then we do a q and a, which I feel is kind of the most important part of what we do in a lot of ways because then kids get to ask questions that are relevant to themselves. Um, often they'll ask it for the benefit of their classmates as a whole, which is really nice.

 and then we, uh, we show ourselves to be kind of success stories and open a dialogue around what it's like to experience it, go through it, and come out better on the other side.

That's, it's an interesting perspective in we feel as parents oftentimes that we are the ones that are supposed to be the first to know we're the ones that are supposed to take the responsibility of our children, but at the time that they are. Transitioning into middle school, into high school, we become so much less important or less of a focus in their lives.

And their peer group is really the ones that are gonna be seeing a lot of this because our kids are acting one way around us, but they're really acting in those natural around their peer group.

I would, uh, I would push back on that a little bit. I think parents maybe, okay, this is personally me. I've seen it with kids a little bit, but personally, I, I think my parents did not recognize and still might not recognize how often. They were on my mind in everything that I did. Their influence, their teachings, their expectations and standards.

But also just this idea of like, I am a representative of my family. I'm not gonna walk around like, I don't have home training and have people say his parents should erase them better. No way. Right. Um, there, there's just a, I think there's a lot of that. It's, and it's all the time. Like all, like more than you could possibly maybe think.

Um, and I also feel that parents do take that on themselves. 'cause you're the protector and you, you're not making excuses for yourself as much as possible. But like, let's, let's be real. Especially if you were a latchkey kid, you know, that like being, this is a bad way to say it, but I don't really know. A better way to say it.

I guess being time broke is very common and very real. If you're working a job that takes up 40, 50 hours, or you're working two jobs, 60 hours a week or more, whatever, or even you're, you're a high earning, but it's a job that forces you to work 80 hours a week. You know, I, I know that that's less what your audience might be doing because, you know, as caretakers and stuff, but ultimately time.

You need time for yourself. You need time to work and make money. You need time to maintain your household. Family stuff comes up. Emergencies come up. And you know, if you're not, you know, I don't know, making a set amount of money on the side that you don't have to, you know what I mean, then you are very likely time broke. And how can you give all that attention to your kid if so much of your time is spent keeping your kid healthy? Sheltered food fed, watered, right? The nurturing that you do manage to do in that space of time is a phenomenal gift. Um, and very, very important. And your kids absolutely see that.

Thank you for that clarification, and I think you're absolutely right. Um, parents do become less of the center focal point of their kids as they move into, um, middle school and high school. But we are still so important in their life. And I think that clarification we made was, was, was perfect, is that, you know, you, they're still your responsibility and they still, still look to you for guidance and, um, yeah.

Yeah. It's really, it's a, I think it really is just this matter of. How, how well can you transition from carrying your kid to putting them down and walking beside them?

Mm-hmm.

I think we do that very easily, physically. 'cause at a certain point your kid is like, put me down, I wanna walk. Right. Um, but I think mentally and emotionally it can be harder to make that transition.

It's, it's hard for both sides. And the more distance that's. Being made or the more maturity maybe that's being shown or the more in independence that's trying to be cultivated. Um, I don't know. The, the more I could feel like. At least I felt like my parents tried to latch onto me more and more as I tried to move out into the world.

And like, I gotta figure this out. Like I have to, I'm 19, but I have to live my own life because I'm at that age. And then being like, well, why don't you just talk to me and let me help you? Why don't you let me help you find a job? Not let me give you money when you need a haircut type stuff. Um, but I'm gonna.

I'm, I'm gonna fold up on that 'cause I know you're, you're saying you gotta wrap up. Um.

I do. I know, and I, again, there's this whole part of me that would like to take each chunk, would like to take your A DHD, would like to take your anxiety, would like to take your bipolar, and then where you're at now. I mean, I could, like I said, I could spend hours with you. You're just very insightful and you're very giving and, um.

The Nan Project is, uh, a, a wonderful organization based out of Boston. Um, and I'll put all of the, um, information on how to, uh, to define them on in the show notes. Arthur, one last thing. If you could leave a parting message for, uh, a young person who might be struggling, what would that parting message be?

You, your mental health challenges. Have a very powerful voice. Your depression will tell you. No one will understand you. Your anxiety will tell you you're not good enough to do this. But essentially what ends up happening, I think at its core is something is telling you that there is just no point, and that is far in a way not the truth.

It is like factually, categorically, untrue. It's so worth it. You are so worth it. And I promise you that people recognize when you're absent and when you're present, they look for you in both situations. You're you stronger than you think, and probably stronger than you know, and the greatest way to prove that to yourself is just to keep going. There's. There's something down the road, uh, and it may not be what you want, it may not be what you're looking for, but it'll be something that you can make something of, and I absolutely believe in you and believe that, and I'm sure you'll prove me right.

Image Arthur.

Thank you for having me. 

Thanks for tuning into this way up. I hope you're feeling a little lighter, a little brighter, and ready to take on whatever comes next. Remember, the journey of mental health is all about progress, not perfection. So keep climbing and don't forget to celebrate the small wins. If you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who could use a little lift.