Euthanasia Debate, Retirement Age & Expats’ Lives in Denmark: LWID S2E1

Introducing our new co-host Arun Prakash, who joins Narcis George Matache, the Founder of Last Week in Denmark to discuss this week’s newsletter headlines. The diverse backgrounds of our cohosts brings fresh perspectives for our podcast listeners, dissecting the topics and life from the lens as an EU citizen, a non-EU citizen and internationals living in Denmark.

Topics covered in today’s podcast includes:

• Euthanasia — should it be legalised in Denmark? (2:35)
• Rising… or freezing retirement age in Denmark? (11:00)
• New rules - manual transmission license even with an automatic driving test (35:50)
• Reducing unhealthy food and snacks in supermarkets (52:05)

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Chapters

• 2:35 Euthanasia — should it be legalised in Denmark?
• 12:07 Rising… or freezing retirement age in Denmark?
• 36:57 Get a manual transmission license even with an automatic driving test
• 53:12 The petition to reduce unhealthy food and snacks in Danish supermarkets

Transcript

Arun:

Welcome everyone listening or watching this podcast. I'm your host, Arun. Each week, in collaboration with Narcis, the founder of Last Week in Denmark, we bring you the latest news and insights that matter most to the expat community here in Denmark.

Narcis:

Hello, everyone. This is basically a second attempt at the Last Week in Denmark podcast you probably have seen or not. Sorry, you have listened to the first podcast a couple of months ago. Unfortunately, due to various reasons, we couldn't continue that one, that project. But now we are back into a new format. Arun has reached out to us and said, hey, why don't we revive that project and do it together? And we were like, yes, why not? And he proposed, let's do it on video instead of just audio. We're gonna still continue with audio, so you're still gonna be able to listen to us on Spotify, on Apple podcasts and all the other platforms that you prefer to use. But you can also see us now on YouTube. We might not be the. The best models out there for watching for an entire half an hour, but it's more about what we say and less about how we look like. Right. And what's more interesting is that actually this time we try to see if we put a European, ergo me Romanian, and Arun a non European, I guess India. Right, Arun?

Arun:

Yeah.

Narcis:

Then if we put the two of us together, then to see if we discuss the news that are happening in Denmark, perspective from the two lives that are happening. Because, you know, many people don't understand that internationals are not one full unit. We, we have and we go through wildly different experiences, even between the same, same ethnic group. But if we are to find parallels, I would say that the non Europeans are having a much harder life here in Denmark than us as Europeans. And it's interesting to see that. What.What did they go through and what do we go through in. By approaching different subjects out there, I.

Arun:

Could see that there's a lot of topics about around state of Denmark. There's news about weekly political overview, and there's also focus areas where you have topics about foods and technology, climate neutral by 2050. So we'll start with the first one, which is,which is something that you wanted to talk more about. And that is, if I'm not wrong, is it, is it about euthanasia that we started talking about?

Narcis:

You wanted to start this, this podcast with a very, very strong topic, I guess, right? Something people don't really want to touch or they don't want to think about, especially in our age. I mean, relatively, we're still in our youth, so we don't, we don't think much about that. But we are also at a certain point, certain stage in our youth where we do have some relatives who pass away, right, or they are in a situation to be at the end of life. So we get to face this. And the older we get, the closer we get to 40 or to 50, the more we going to have to face this as part of our life. Right? So euthanasia is. What is euthanasia? What do you think is euthanasia in your mind?

Arun:

I, I did some Google search while we spoke about it, and it says the painless killing of a patient suffering from incurable or painless disease and painless disease. And it is actually illegal in most countries. So, so how, how is, how is this legal in Denmark? Or why suddenly this topic is Denmark? Okay, so it's not legal.

Narcis:

Actually, the Ethics Council in Denmark, which is a very big and very highly respected council, has said we should not do this, we should not legalize euthanasia. But the current Prime Minister, Metti Ferguson, she supports it. She finds it as necessary because there should be a dignity in the last moment. So you should be able to choose when it's time to go instead of suffering and going through terrible, terrible situations. So it's a question about allowing, allowing the state to. It's a question of liberty, to be honest. Should People be allowed to decide that they want to die and who should be responsible for the death? Should it be the state? So should it be the doctor that comes and makes the injection? Should they just give some pills to the patient, the patient has to take them themselves, or should a relative come and do it for them? So that's the question, right? So. But people are afraid to, to allow or to open such a discussion where the government can regulate how you die. Right now the only way you can legally die is by natural causes or if someone illegally kills you. Right? So.

Arun:

So I'm a bit curious because, yeah, the curiosity that I have is the patient in a good state of mind that he or she chooses to say, okay, I'm not going to take this anymore. I'm through a lot of pain and I want to end my life. It could also be a mental state where people are not, I would say, 100 percentage themselves. So how, how in this situation can someone's concern be. It's, is it fine to actually, you know, terminate one's life by a statement?

Narcis:

Well, it's not enough just a statement. I think there will be other things Taken in consideration. Like for example, can they ever recover from it? Is it possibility or it's incurable because some diseases are simply incurable. Right. There's nothing more to to be done there besides waiting. So, so that's, that's the question. You cannot use legal euthanasia on patients that can recover. So this cannot be used as a way to suicide. I know a lot of people are now call it state assisted suicide that way because people who are against it,obviously they're going to find ways to portray it in a negative way. So now they're trying to call it not legal Asia, because it's a difficult word and most people don't know it and simply call it state assisted suicide, which is, it's a bit unfair to, to call it in that way becauseyou cannot call suicide something that you know is going to happen. It's just a matter of is it today or is it in two weeks from now that, that's the question. Right. So I, I, this is a talk show, right? So it's not a political talk show. We're not going to take sides. We just,we're just gonna say, yeah, the government would like it to happen. There's a lot of resistance to it. There is a huge network of celebrities and health professionals who are against it, who are afraid that this, can people can misuse it then can they can misuse it as away to, to suicide? So it's, it's a, it's a difficult question and it's not, not easy to be covered in a little bit of, of time.

Arun:

I could imagine it just, it's a.

Narcis:

Question of would you like to have that option? Arun, if you are having incurable disease, would you like to have the option to have a dignified death, or would you prefer to go through the most excruciating situations and maybe not the most dignifying situation?

Arun:

I would choose the one which is dignified, obviously. Yeah. Because, yeah, at least that is how I feel. My gut says I lived enough. I lived, I've lived a life worth living. And then when it is time to go, I think I will choose the one which is dignified, in my opinion.

Narcis:

So that's the whole approach in here. Because in most countries it is illegal.

Arun:

Fair enough.

Narcis:

But there is still countries where it is legal, like for example, Netherlands. Okay, so I'm not sure about us or the big countries, to be honest, outside of Europe. But what about India? Do you know by any chance that this is legal?

Arun:

I don't think so. It's not legal yet. And of course there's a lot of, lot of laws have been passed on. If it's like you said, incurable diseases, then they ask their belongings if they're too old and weak and they actually ask the consent from belonging, is it okay? But I don't know if it's actually legal to do it. My experiences goes with what my relatives and third degree connections have said and I think it's a decision that the family members make if their, let's say great grandmother or grandmother is too weak to be able to medicate further. And those exceptional cases, they, they also get a consent from belongings as a, and that's, that's very subjective to this families. Right. But, but I don't know if it's, I don't know if it's actually legal and I'm honestly sure it's, it's, it's a, it's a broad topic to also, to also to consider what, what, what goes into, into the law of.

Narcis:

I think this is just at the beginning the, the whole discussion. Yes, there's some countries who are early adopters who already done this. There's other countries who are on their way and I think there will be a lot of pushback as well from the conservatives or from people who say like life is sacred, humans should not have the right to decide on life. Because I think many people are using this argument actually saying life is sacred, there is some sort of spirit behind and you. We should allow only higher beings to, to decide, notus. So humans should not decide about other humans's life. That's kind of. So that's why many people are against it. Not necessarily because of political reasons, but mainly actually to be honest, actually because of religious reasons. But I think we covered enough this legal how it goes. Because right now what I can tell you is going to be a battle in Denmark between the anti side and between the ones who want to pass it. So we will be talking about this in the next many weeks for sure.

Arun:

Okay, cool. Let's, let's, let's jump into a political agreement from 2006 about the retirement age increase. Let's talk about it.

Narcis:

Another tough one. We go from the dignified way of dying, dignified way of retirement. Unfortunately it doesn't look very good for us. I looked at the website, you know, if you guys gonna check the newsletter on Sunday when it comes, there is a link where you can press and see when you can retire. So you put your birth date and it's gonna tell you the age when you can retire.

Arun:

Seriously?

Narcis:

Yeah, Just, just find it in the meantime while you, you look for yours. Mine was that I can retire when I will be 74 years old. Because the life expectancy in 2063, when I can finally is, it's gonna be up to 87 years old. So it's third. They expect you, so they expect you to pay pension for you for 13 to 14 years old only. So, so, so at 74 I can finally retire. So I'm curious, iron when is your retirement age?

Arun:

So you, you are saying that you're going to retire in 2074?

Narcis:

No, no, no.

Arun:

At 74 years old. Oh my God. Sorry, I'm just seeing the chart. I'm just seeing the chart. It says 2024 people retire at 67 and at 2040 people retire at 70.

Narcis:

Arun, there's a link in, in there where you can put your birth date. If it says find out when you can retire by using this calculator.

Arun:

Okay.

Narcis:

Press on the calculator link.

Arun:

Okay. I'm checking at my, the link that you shared with me.

Narcis:

Yeah.

Arun:

Put in my day, insert your birthday. Okay.

Narcis:

1992.

Arun:

Okay. Okay. I can actually retire at the age of 73.5.

Narcis:

Okay.

Arun:

And now I'm 32, so I can retire at 2081.

Narcis:

In 2081 you can retire.

Arun:

No, I think I could retire in 2065, but I could get the, I think. What do you call. You could go for pension? I can retire at 2065.

Narcis:

Yeah, in 2065 you can retire and then you expect to get pension for like 15 years.

Arun:

So.

Narcis:

Till 21.

Arun:

Yeah. Ah, okay. But, but here's the thing. So, so I have to work for 73.5 years. Is that what you're trying to say. Okay, and what. What was your number?

Narcis:

74.

Arun:

74. Okay. How old are you, man?

Narcis:

Yeah, well, 34.

Arun:

Okay. Okay. So, yes, I'm 32.

Narcis:

Okay.

Arun:

Almost the same.

Narcis:

It's 30 something. Nobody really knows after 30 how old anyone is. Anyway, all we know now is when you can retire with a public pension. And fun fact, in Denmark, even if you have not worked at all, when it's retirement age, you can still get the public pension. It's The only country in the world that has this.

Arun:

But is it. Is it. I'm just curious. Should I have to go at pension at 73?

Narcis:

74. Do you. Do you understand that? Listen to that number again.

Arun:

74.

Narcis:

Are you really feeling me that you're gonna still be like entrepreneurial and start in the next uber when you're 74?

Arun:

I. I'm not sure even if I live at that age, but it would be. But it would be interesting what I will do at 74.

Narcis:

Your question is like this. You're allowed when you retire to still earn money on the side. You can still have a business running. It has nothing to do with. With your pension. So you're. You're. There's. There's a minimum pension in Denmark. Everyone has to get. Thenyou get pension based on how much you worked. So you have the basic pension, which is for everyone. Then you have the second level of pension, which is based on. On how much you worked. So that one can change depending if you make too much money when you retire. So let's say that you have still a very high income from your work. It will be difficult to get a high pension from your second layer of pension. Right? And then you have a third level of pension. If you are working in some special, like, let's say an industry or something, you have this industry pension, which is your third layer of pension. Basically it's like a. Let's just say a private pension, but it's paid by your employer. So you have 1, 2, 3 level of pensions. And then it can be your own private pensions and whatever else you're doing on the side, basically. But the whole discussion here is about should retirement be blocked at 70 like the social Democrats want to do now? They say, okay, in 2040 it will be 70 years old, and from there on it stops at 70 till 2100, or should it be following the life expectancy? Because we are living longer. That's the fact. And so. So you are worried you will not reach 74. Math and statistics say you will.

Arun:

But I'm just, I'm just questioning the math here because I think we honestly, Denmark is a really good country. The. The climate is good, it's not polluted. And the average life expectancy of Danish people, yes, I agree they live longer, but I am, I have lived almost half or maybe 25 years until 25 years old in India. So how do they get this number of average? Is it only survey from Danish citizens or is it generally the people who live in Denmark? Because that could change, right?

Narcis:

Yeah, it's. To be honest, this research are based on people living in Denmark.

Arun:

So it's hard to make sense.

Narcis:

It's. It's hard to say how much it impacts your life previous your life. True.

Arun:

In India the number is actually quite less and I, I think I'll be frank here. But. But of course different parts of India. Now I live here, so assume that I have an average life expectancy in the, in that 87 range, which is. It is good to know you raised actually.

Narcis:

Yeah. If you come at 40 years old with your family, right. You live half of your time abroad, that means that chances are you'll not end at the same ending.

Arun:

Yeah. It's a lifestyle that shows us how, how much you can live healthy. I've seen this lifestyle of Denmark compared to India. It's a healthy lifestyle. I'll always compare with how my uncles and aunties used to live. Of course it's very subjective topic, but in general I've Seen a lot of activities that people do here and the ecosystem is a bit different. And that shows in the data that there's a lot of older people live in Denmark. But also older people also have higher expectancy rate in Denmark. But in India I think the number is less.And also I think even if I choose to retire in Denmark on the long run, my number could improve for sure because I will have a healthy lifestyle.

Narcis:

But I think what you can do is make a. Take your number from India because you could make a population here. Take the number from Denmark, take the number from India, say okay, I would leave. I lived, I don't know, 25 of my life in, in India and 75 in Denmark. And Then you average the 25 with 75% and you get your number. But this, this actually raises a question maybe for the future when, when there will be more internationals living in Denmark. Especially may that move during their 30s or 40s would be that okay. That Means an international will actually benefit pension from Denmark a lot less than a Dane who.

Arun:

Native citizens. Yeah, so true.

Narcis:

So what what about that? Yeah, right. Like as they keep saying, oh, they, they're taking our benefits and they go away. But should they think about it, they live less. Internationals live less. They don't live as long as the Danes. Right. Because your body has been exposed to different. Yeah. Health conditions for.

Arun:

It's also subjective. Of course. There are a lot of healthy Indians and I've seen them in real life as well. But as the statistics goes by the statistics, I think it's comparatively lesser on the average Indian because there's a lot of.

Narcis:

When we talk public economy, we only talk about statistics. We don't talk about exceptional cases where.

Arun:

Yeah, exactly.

Narcis:

Because you don't make political decisions. On the situation of Johnny and Maria who live till 130 and they eaten on the apples. Now every politician, every public economist, they only look at numbers. And your numbers. Yeah, sad to say, we are numbers. What are the numbers saying? So that's, that's how you can make discussions on, on making changes or designing societies. Right. You can only look at statistics. That's. I know many people hated statistics, probably in university or high school, depending if you have statistics in high school. But they are a lot more important than you. You imagine, to be honest. They, they kind of read the future and tell us about the past a lot.

Arun:

But also as an expert, I go into the statistics 10 Mark Page and I get a lot of insights, things that I am completely ignorant about and it makes a lot of sense to me, even though the numbers reflect 2022 or 2023 maximum. But it kind of gives an idea. Right. It takes time, but it's also like giving an eye level information about how many expats live in Denmark and average income. A lot of these topics, everything that you want to know.

Narcis:

I would say I'm, I'm very happy with how good we are at, at collecting information here and presenting it publicly because I have a hard time finding other EU countries who can present to me up to the last few, how many Romanians live where, how many. No,seriously.

Arun:

Okay. How do you compare data with Denmark and other countries? That is it, is it, is it fine enough that you have a lot of information about. I want to say in immigrants. Yeah.

Narcis:

I wouldn't call him immigrants. I don't like that word.

Arun:

I would just say that's how it's a good. Yeah. Internationals.

Narcis:

Yeah, yeah.

Arun:

According to that graph, it's labeled as immigrants due to work, immigrants due to asylum. And then there are different classification, but it, it, it paints the. An overview of where people come From. And everything is like live. But yeah. With a quarter or a half yearly delay. I would say the latest Data was actually 2023 ish. And, and also about jobs. Yeah, first quarter of 2024. Yes, you're right.

Narcis:

So yeah, I think, I think it's, it's fine enough to be honest. And I, I like that. It gives me a very good picture of, of what's, what's the situation with for example, my own community in, in Denmark and where are they coming and what are they doing and so on. But as Isaid now, the discussion further on will be about what should be. Should we freeze retirement age at 70 or should we allow it to follow expectancy age? And that's the question here. The government wants to freeze it, but many economists have come and said, well,if you freeze it, it's going to cost 40 billion kroner a year.

Arun:

Okay. Why?

Narcis:

Because we. The ratio of elderly compared to working people will be much, much higher. And that will only increase with every decade. And the number of children born is lower with every decade. So there's too few people working to pay for the pensions of people living in 2060 or 2050. Right. Going on retirement on 2050, 2060, simply the number of people getting pension is too high. It's a huge burden for the state. Right. So, so I understand why they want to freeze the 70 because people will start losing trust in. Okay, even bother to pay pension in Denmark if 74 sounds horribly long and horribly far right. So that's why I understand the government's thinking. But also I understand that the reason why they made this agreement 2006 was that they had to find a solution to the pension crisis. There was a huge debate 10 years ago about pension crisis in Europe. Many countries will be simply defaulting on it by 2040 roughly around there. So Denmark actually among the few countries in Europe who found a solution to it. Simply you live longer than you retire later, contribute more.

Arun:

Yeah.

Narcis:

It's a good, good model or not. I mean, I still cannot imagine a 74 year old, I don't know, a nurse making an injection. Right. That, that can. Oh yeah, really backfire. So I don't know. I mean, some of us, I'm a consultant, right. I can do my work till I'm 74, no problem. But If I, if, if I am going on the factory line and I beat the thing, I will not be able to beat as hard when I'm 74. Right. And, and many other situations, I think there's jobs that simply either We, I think a more fair to, more fair way to look at it, just a personal opinion would be to differentiate between the work you do. If you do a certain type of work, is it possible to actually retire at 74? No. Then when, when is biologically possible to be able to work a certain job or not? But then it opens up a whole Pandora box of various lobbying interests.The nurse union will fight with the electrician union and I'll fight because you know, we are in Denmark, we are organized here, people fight for their interest.

Arun:

But I, I'm curious to know what sort of jobs will be in the future. For example, as a start point. Even in India it is booming. And it is still in India it is booming, but there's also certain age groups which are thriving in it. For example, a graduate and then until the age of35, he owns it and he has a lot of experience. He gets into a lot of corporate ladder leadership roles. And at a certain point where it is 35, 40 ish, then the trend goes back to the youngsters and they hire youngsters and they get into those ladders. So there is a threshold for it, people who thrive in it. And do you think the same will exist in Denmark that are you hirable after 50 ish? And what are the jobs that will be available for people at 50 plus in the future? And this is again going to be a debate for the countries because what sort of jobs will the government be able to provide for 60 plus people? In the age where technology is like trying to shape, there's going to be a battle between opportunity versus people having to find jobs.

Narcis:

And I think, Arun, the problem here is that India can afford to exchange people again and again. You have a lot of young people, a lot of cohorts of young people. We don't have that luxury in Denmark. I think in Denmark you see more often government and municipalities asking elderly people to come back to work or say, please stay a few longer, a few more years.

Arun:

That is true.

Narcis:

So I wouldn't say we have this situation where we can simply, yeah, you're 40 now, now go do something else. We'll take someone to do your job. I, I don't see it here, honestly speaking, and I don't. I see here if you have a job, that's that you know how to do well, the most likely they will want you to stay there until 74.

Arun:

That is actually good. That is actually good to know because then you at least have a security that you have a job. Government jobs in India have that have that have the stability. But the private companies, I don't think so. It's also competitive landscape that people always look for fresh ideas and cheap labor force. And then this good combination. Every company wants it. He is cheap to hire. He or she is cheap to hire but also creative enough to explore new boundaries and come out of the stereotypes. But I, I have this experience working in India and, and, and the, the. The older you get, you also become more insecure. Will I be hirable if I go to another company? So I will stay with this company as long as I wish to. And yeah, I've seen this many, many people marketing here.

Narcis:

You don't have to go through. Through such.

Arun:

That is a nice question. I actually think like I had this conversation with my mom many, many months ago. My mom always wanted me to work in a job because government job in India is the most secure job you can ever find. You can, you can retire in a government job. You get good benefits, pension, just like the Danish promises. And it's also like a sign of a good, you know, son that he is, he is doing his duties properly. And parents dream is to son to get a good job, a decent job, a government job. But I don't like working in a government job because I, I haven't seen challenges in jobs that I've applied for. So it's always interesting for me to work with private companies. But when I came to Denmark, when I worked for big companies, it feels like a government job because of course I am now thinking about job security. I'm now thinking about my family responsibilities and now I need security. Back in the days when I was younger, it was just challenges and something exciting to play with. But now I started feeling like what I would do is to have a secured income so to balance out my responsibilities. And I realized my mom was right at certain point that stability in monthly income is important. And I told my mom, now I'm in a government company even though it is not a government company. It's a pretty stable environment. And I think it's a good point that you made that people are not just fired because of their age or. Yeah, but that's good. Interesting point that you brought out.

Narcis:

If people are fired because of their age, I would just land them with, with a huge lawsuit from, from the people fired and they can go home with a very nice severance pay. So I'll be shocked if someone does that. But look, I'm now in the position of being a business owner, right? So I, when I find good people, I Want them to stay as long as physically possible. So in Denmark is more about you losing your best employees to other companies then searching for better opportunities out there. So there's two perspectives here. Meas a business owner, I want you to stay as long as possible. US employee will want to move away after three years to a different job so your salary can keep increasing faster. So. So in Denmark, I will actually encourage you that again now I am taking the side of the employees. I will encourage you that you change your job after two, three years because you will have a higher, a faster increase on your salary than if you wait for your salary to increase at the same job. Simply that's the reality of it. So. And we are in a market where we have an unemployment rate of barely 2%. What we have 80,000 people who don't have a job. It's extremely low. It's. It's. It's a market where it's not about. It's literally you choose if you're obviously if you're capable. I'm not talking now that there are. There are still situations where some people don't fit in the market because there's simply too many of the same profile. Or yes, there, there are mismatches. So some people will not feel themselves that they fit in this. Oh, there's 2% unemployment rate. Why in the hell I cannot find a job? So just because there's a very low unemployment rate, you also have to take in consideration smaller numbers. Like how many people with your profile are needed on the market. Is it already oversaturated? Is it good number? Because if you're a nurse,people will be like beating at the door and say please come and work for me. If you are a cyber security expert. Again, there's like thousands of them needed in the country right now. Especially that we are attacked like crazy every day in our infrastructure.

Arun:

Yeah, yeah.

Narcis:

Current situation depends what you can do. Like, if ever. Every time I see an IT professional I say go in cyber security.

Arun:

That's your most.

Narcis:

If you want to maintain jobs salary per month in three years from now, go in cyber security. I. I cannot advise a better.

Arun:

That is true. The. The expats listening to this conversation, I think you already heard from narcissists that the most in demand job right now is in IT and it's also in cyber security. Absolutely, I agree.

Narcis:

In IT is cyber security. But it's not the most in demand. The most in demand is still healthcare by far.

Arun:

Yeah, but in sectors. Right. And in IT cyber security by far. Yes. Because the situation in, in the global geopolitical situation. Yes, yes. Yeah, of course. Pharmaceutical will always be there.

Narcis:

Yeah, of course. I mean, what's also good? I mean, if you have any sort of job that somehow can fit within pharma production. Yeah, right. We becoming a pharma state. A country where pharma pharmaceutical companies are thriving. They're getting bigger.

Arun:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Narcis:

So any sort of profile fitted with such a company. There are jobs out there. From what I know, there's 3,000 new.

Arun:

Jobs being open north of crazy, crazy openings. I would say there's a list in LinkedIn if you go and check. They are hiring like crazy. They need more people and they're actually finding it difficult to find within Denmark. So they're actually hiring from outside Denmark. Europeans and they're even for further reaching out the non Europeans profiles. Yeah, but here comes a topic. It's about positive list that, that is published every six months. And you mentioned about the in demand jobs. Right. And I've seen this positive list, they also change quite frequently. If you see the current demand is of course all these management jobs and also specialist in pharmaceuticals and specialist in. And there's a lot of relation between positive list and also jobs that are posted in work in Denmark page andalso in LinkedIn jobs. Yeah, yeah.

Narcis:

And for the ones who are Europeans and following this podcast, what is a positive list? Right. Because you, you guys don't know what that is.

Arun:

Okay.

Narcis:

We don't have to care about that.

Arun:

So seriously. Okay, yeah.

Narcis:

As a Europeans, we have the right to move to Denmark whenever we please.

Arun:

Okay.

Narcis:

That's how it is. We don't have to fulfill some requirements.

Arun:

You have extra privileges. I could see that.

Narcis:

Yeah, that's what I said. Yes, yes, we have extra privilege. So as an, as a non European, unfortunately, you need to, to be able to get a visa to come to Denmark.

Arun:

Exactly.

Narcis:

One of the many programs that are out there and one of them is positive list. So if you can work a certain job that is on that list, you can actually work it for a lower salary than the minimum required for non Europeans. Actually, the only minimum salary you have inDenmark is for non Europeans which are not on the positive list. So if you're on a positive list, you can get a normal salary that is for the others in the country as well. But if you're not on the positive list and still want to come here and a company wants to hire you,they have to give you a very extravagant salary of more than 400,000 crowns per year, which to Be honest, for most of us Europeans is a lot of money. We don't get paid that much.

Arun:

Okay, that's. That's interesting topic. I think. I think we should talk about it sometime in the future. I'm extra curious about how that works and maybe you could actually have a podcast by that topic itself with the interest of time. What do we talk more about?Narcissists.

Narcis:

You wanted to ask me about the driver's license.

Arun:

Oh, yeah. Right, yeah. Let me get to the point. I think after five and a half years in Denmark, I decided finally to get my driver's license, actually. Seriously? Okay. Why. Why are you. You are. You are a Romanian and I think you already are part of eu. You still want to geta driver's license? How. How does it work for you?

Narcis:

I have one.

Arun:

Okay.

Narcis:

I. I never took one in my life, so I am taking my first driving license ever.

Arun:

My God. Okay. Wow. Yeah, that also makes sense that you. You never depended on driving. Is it because you never thought you would want to drive somewhere or in general, or you don't want to like.

Narcis:

So it's a personal choice there. But I also was able to manage with trains, which not even flying, so simply by training bus. I've been all around Europe a few.

Arun:

Times, but that shows that how connected these cities are with public transports and flights and trains, which is also one of the things that I really inspired. Even that is the same feeling that I had. A lot of people ask me, you don't have a driver's license. I said, when Ihad a good public transport that goes to my work, and when I have a good flight that could fly to all the tourist destination, I really haven't had that as my first priority. My first priority was always to get through the permanent residency and language. And these were the numbers that were really important for me, for the people who are Europeans.

Narcis:

Again, this is something you're not used to.

Arun:

I have to remind that.

Narcis:

But that's the fun part of it, right? Remember, permanent residence is the thing that you get automatically after five years in Denmark, they actually have to go through.

Arun:

A test and it doesn't come automatically. We have to go to the grind. We have to grind and then finish all the exams that are relevant. And for the Europeans listening again, this is the journey of an expat trying to integrate. And it takes at least five, six years on average to actually get to a stage where he is a permanent resident and he could enjoy some of the benefits that Europeans enjoy in Denmark. And I think it's a challenge a lot of expats face. And I'm making videos to educate people on how I was able to do it. Andfeel free to check out with also a lot of expert stories that narcissists are also publishing in his weekly newsletters about how you could educate yourself and try to thrive in this economy. But getting back to this driver's license narcissist, I'm surprised that you are trying for driving license. My story is a bit different. I have an Indian driving license. I've seen people in my company exchange licenses like so they had a Canadian license, they gave the Canadian license, they got the Danish license. Nothing, just a one day process.I've seen a Norwegian guy exchange licenses. I've seen South American countries, some of them, not all exchange licenses. But being non European country like India, if you just go and hand over your Indian license, they say I can surrender my Indian license, but Ihave to go through a theory and a practical exam just like everyone does. The only difference is I get to take the exam right away. So I could just surrender my Indian license, get a medical check and then like basically they do, I take eye test and then my general practitioner, the GP will give a certificate to the examiner examinator saying that this, this guy or this person is physically fit to take the test and that's it. But the fee is huge. I would say it's a lot of money because for the exam. Yeah. So start with the examination fee will at least come to like 1500 to 2000 kronas. And I will tell you the numbers split by split. Now so. So in order to apply for the exam, I think it's a fee. The driving license schools charge, which is 300 kroners. It's free by the government for the commune, but the, the private institutions, they charge 300 kroners roughly to book a slot for you. And you can actually take the exam many times as you want to. There's a limit, but you can take multiple times. This is theory part. Every time when you fail, you have to pay thousand kronos for the theory. Again, that's a lot of money. So make sure that you pass the first time. So you end up just paying 300 kroner minimum. And then the second half of the exam is about practicals where you will be tested with driving skills in real life. And for the fee part.So since I understand some Danish, but I wanted to still have an English person to give me instructions, there is a translator fee, there is a fee for renting or Loaning the car for a couple of hours for the driving test. And then there is a fee for the exam. So you put together, you will sum up around 2,000 kroner for one exam. And this exam fee is just 2,300 kroner without taking any classes. Now when we talk about classes, this is where it gets really interesting because if you haven't really driven before or if you don't have any licenses, you end up at least paying 15,000 Danish kroner for one person getting a license. And if you are, if you. That's a lot of money.

Narcis:

That's what I'm paying, Aaron. I mean that it's. So there's not special prices for non Europeans, to be honest, that's what everyone pays but Europeans. But Danish, everyone pays the same.

Arun:

Yeah, but if you could drive, but you still pay. That's my pain because I, I know how to drive, but I drive in the completely other side. So I drive in the right side of the car and now I have to switch over. So I'm pretty skeptical, like how can I then pass the exam? So everytime I take a test I pay around thousand kroner for sessions. And now I played more than like 6,000 Danish kroner for the sessions that I took. And I felt like I know how to drive. But there are lot of rules that I have to know. So it makes sense to go through the process of knowing the rules, because driving is one part, but the, the rules are the most important part. And one example is that when I drive, I've never given orientation. Like you have to turn your body and then give an orientation and see manually that if, if someone is approaching from the side angle. Of course, I mean, but in India, to be honest, orientation was not. I would say I haven't. Of course I read in books, but I don't see people do orientation. A lot of times they look at the rear view mirror, they look at the central mirror, but hardly people orient themselves. And it is a practice that people have to do. Yes, it's by law, but are people doing it? And I also challenge myself to say it is true because when I drive my bike, my bicycle, I still follow rules. So I think it's important to,to, to follow the rules. But it is also very, very hard to crack the exam, pass the exam in the first attempt. If I could do that, it will be a miracle for me hoping to pass the first attempt.

Narcis:

I'm also the, the driving time. So I need to take my exam when driving. Now I Passed. Okay, so.

Arun:

Oh yeah, past theory. Cool. Congratulations.

Narcis:

Yeah, yeah, thanks. But my, my, my luck was that I was supposed to go and take a first theory exam. And then. Okay, he said to me, well, you need to have some documents with you. Because I simply went there and said I'm ready to take my exam. It's on this hour at this time.

Arun:

No, no, no.

Narcis:

You need to have your application, your drive. Yeah, what is that?

Arun:

I don't have that.

Narcis:

My driving instructor has that. Go talk to him. And they were like, no, no, no, you can. Okay, whatever. And then while I was waiting to be reprogrammed to take it again, they changed the law and they allowed to take it on the, on the computers without having to listen to some person talking. I was like, oh my God, thank God, thank God for that. Because I cannot listen to that. Because they were hiring some people with very questionable English level. They were trying some English from their own perspectives. So I had to listen to them and pretend I understand while I choose the right version. And in five seconds. And I was, I was like, someone was looking out for me for me to pass. The law has to be changed. So they changed it. Now you can just look at the computer screen. You have written text. Inshallah.

Arun:

That's a great. I actually like your, I like the enthusiasm that you showed. Actually, one of my friend took the theory exam in an analog way and then I took the exam in a digital way where now I have only screens with touch. So I have to touch the screen. And I took the exam. I spent 25, less than 25 minutes and I was closing my eyes. No, no, I'm going to fail. I don't know, I don't want to see myself, you know, embarrass myself in front of the screen. But luckily I passed. And then I know the result now. And then I left happily.Because in, in, in, in couple of months before the exam used to be where you get the notice from the commune few hours later. But now you see the result as soon as you finish the exam. It is embarrassing. It is also happier if you pass.

Narcis:

Exactly. And, and now, funny enough, I was thinking about taking my, my driving test also on an automatic car because it's a lot easier.

Arun:

Oh yeah.

Narcis:

In Denmark you fail immediately if you do not use orientation every time. So literally. So they. There's. I looked at why, how they grade you and why they can fail you. And one of the ones is simply immediate fail is if you have had to make a turn or anything and you didn't already Properly, completely. They can fail you on the spot.

Arun:

My God.

Narcis:

Orientation is the highest importance. So I realized for me to be able to do everything and change the gear and everything, it'll be too much, too fast, I'll be too stressed. So I said, okay, I'll take my exam on an automatic car. And they told me, oh, but if you take it toan automatic car, you'll only be able to drive automatic cars afterwards. But guess what? The law has changed. So now you can also, even if you take it an automatic car, as long as you have done at least seven hours of, of driving lessons on a manual car, you can still drive both types afterwards.

Arun:

So that's great news.

Narcis:

Somehow my journey is taking a driving license has been, I'm not saying I have influence over legislation in this country.

Arun:

You have, but somehow, or maybe, maybe. See, they see the frustration that people have and they thought, okay, let, let me relax a bit. I think it's fair from your point that manual transmission, you find a lot of cars these days with automatic transmission cars and especially women prefer automatic cars. Even in India, a lot of women, when they buy their first car, they buy gearless cars. And it's also less hassle with traffic. You just keep on changing first and second gears constantly. It's a transitional thing and I think it's good that the government decided to relax this I would say, but more and more people buy.

Narcis:

Electric cars and all electric cars are automatic and that's just a reality. I think it will be basically just, I don't know, a hobby to go drive a manual car in the future anyway. Yeah, yeah, people, oh, I want a vintage car and obviously that's going to be manual.

Arun:

I actually like manual cars. I, I, I, in India, I drive manual cars. It's also in a way pleasing to drive automatic cars. I think the charm is lost in automatic driven cars. But like you said about the transmission part, in a traffic exam or traffic condition, automatic is easy. Youjust accelerate, you brake and then you enjoy the process of driving even in situations heavy traffic. And when I trained an automatic car, I realized my left pedal is always looking for a clutch. And I said, like I am now keeping it idle. I don't have to use my left leg anymore. And my driver, the instructor, was telling me, you make sure that you don't overdo what I tell you. Just use the right leg and try to control. You have only one option, either to accelerate or to brake, which is also, you know, decision making is a lot less now.You don't need to put the clutch. If you're half clutch, you can still freak out, you know when you change gears and do reverse and stuff. So I think it's better for. It's good for good for most of the beginners who are writing trying to learn for the first time.

Narcis:

So to be honest, what I'm looking forward for is self driving cars. I. I am such a big fan and you know, fun fact, I used to work for Uber for, for Uber headquarters.

Arun:

Okay.

Narcis:

Many years ago down in Krakow and, and I was part of this division where we were discussing about the what's next for Uber. Right. And there was self driving cars test in Los Angeles and there was this flying taxis VTL propulsion that you can go from one part to another. I love that I just, I'm waiting. I'm ready, I'm absolutely ready to ride a car that is driverless. I mean we even had in all work a test of a bus without driver. It run for a whole month in album. No accidents. Yeah.

Arun:

Oh wow. Okay.

Narcis:

So we are. I feel like if I wait two more years with my driving license, I will take on a driverless car.

Arun:

You should, I should reconsider your. Your driving license. Narcissist. Now I could see that's why you have no choice now. No, I was. I think I've heard one of my friend told me, she told me that I don't know how to put reverse because my car is already automatically parking itself. She has a Tesla and she said why do you need to drive then if the car can drive itself? And I said, I said it's too seldom that these days people are buying these automatic cars in Teslas. Of course I'm not sure if everybody is turning on the automatic mode to drive them, but the trust is gaining and people are using it for parking at least because it's parking car in between two cars is also like a challenge in itself. And, and, and if an automatic car can do it easily, then I would rather do it. And I, I get the, I get the benefit of.

Narcis:

Yeah, I'm not a. I never been a big fan of driving in the first place, but I have to because now I moved in the, in the suburbs of Walborg so I need to be able to drive a car.

Arun:

You should drive long, long distances. Have you tried traveling with someone on a car?

Narcis:

Like I mean imagine we assistant Europeans, we have to go at least once per year home and that's 2,000 kilometers away somewhere.

Arun:

Yeah. I'm just surprised. How didn't you end up Buying a license because I think it's. It's one of the mandatory things that we people in India think to have is a driving license. Because then it's a craze for bikes in India. It's a craze for bikes, mopeds, all these scooters and two wheelers, racing cars. It's a very craze. I had the I'm for I was fortunate to drive a bike and also had a fortunate to buy a car and drive car. But it's. It's one of the things that people in India invest money in and it's other way around here. There's a lot of cars invest in cars because I think only those rich people own a Harley Davidson or an infield and drive in the summer only for a few seasons. But in India it's otherworld gangsters.

Narcis:

You know, you want to be part of a gang in Denmark of a rocker band, right? You need to have a motorcycle so.

Arun:

You don't have to be rich then, right?

Narcis:

You maybe sold your house for it.

Arun:

Yeah.

Narcis:

Harley Davidson, right?

Arun:

Yeah. Yeah. Okay, narcissist, let's jump into the other big topic that I wanted to talk about which is so now we have spoken about thing that was exciting for both of us about the automatic transmission cars. Let's talk about unhealthy foods. That is also part of your focus areas. In your newsletter it says according to several health organizations in Denmark there is a recent regulation about how to place foods, especially those tempting foods and their. And their positions in the stores. What is it all about?

Narcis:

Well, basically it's a. Not yet a regulation. It's a. It's a wishful okay proposal from them because they have realized that a lot of people. Because you know when you go at the check. Checkout, right, you see a lot of candy, chocolates, snacks, whatever they can push into you last minute. And many times you'll just take it or you see it at the entry of the. Or you see it in the most visible places or next to items that you have to buy. So let's say that you go a lot for milk, right? If people buy a lot of milk then you'll place next to the milk,energy drinks, fast food, whatever that is. That is very bad because a lot of people have share because they made like researches on the population and a lot of people have said that the only reason they buy that stuff is because of they get tempted by it. Manypeople don't even take their children to stores because of it. So. So it is. It Is about. Because you have to think about from us. Yeah. A lot of. There's two sides here. One side is the.

Arun:

The.

Narcis:

The commercial side. The. The company should be allowed to do everything possible to make as much profit as possible. But then you have to think on the other side. Well, if the public health gets impacted by it and more people use more days in hospitals, putting a strain on our hospitals. Right. That means we need to pay more taxes. So who's paying? So we allow companies to make more money, but then we have to pay more taxes to be able to keep our healthcare system running.

Arun:

Correct.

Narcis:

Because we fill up the hospitals because of obesity.

Arun:

Right.

Narcis:

I mean, 52% of people in Denmark have obesity. We are more fat than we should be.

Arun:

That is a surprising fact. My. My assumptions are wrong. Now, I think half of Denmark's adult population is overweight, as you could see from the data.

Narcis:

Yeah.

Arun:

And is it. Is it from the Ministry of Health that has been put out?

Narcis:

Yeah.

Arun:

Okay. This is official. Interesting.

Narcis:

Okay, so 52% of the population is overweight. And then never mind Talking about the 20% which are really overweight.

Arun:

Severely overweight, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Narcis:

So I think we kind of got the wrong perspective of what overweight means because we look at American movies and we see very, very fat people and we think, okay, that is what it means to be overweight. That's not how it works. When they look at overweight, Right.They look at what is your expected, like weight compared to your height? Overweight.

Arun:

Yeah, yeah, right. The BMI index. Right. And I think that brings us to the topic of supermarkets across the globe. Like I've noticed in Indian supermarkets, the. There's a science behind it. There's a human behavioral research going. Going back. So as human beings,when we take our kids, the last thing that the kid wants is before the cashier, before the area where you go and pay. You always find attractive candies. You always find the chocolates. And then you also have things like, you know, cigarettes and these beers and wines and exotic collections right next to the cashier. Because even at that time, they think the human brain has a, let's say, capacity to make choices. And those choices are actually not based on, you know, it's. It's already. You have spent so much time walking through the supermarket now you don't have anything to make but to pick something. So you. We pick unconsciously and say, you know what? Doesn't make a huge difference? Let me buy this. Or my kid is asking me for this toy, and then I'm going to add on top of whatever I have. So I've actually taken up something that I really don't want in the first place. And because of the psych, the behavioral, human behavioral stuff, you end up having to purchase, let's say five items which you never wanted in the first place. And it's always the case. So not just kids, but it's also adults behavior. So I went the other day, I went for buying meat, I went for buying hummus, I went for buying rye bread. You know what I actually came up with, apart from whatever I have bought? I actually took the really good looking feastable chocolates that was right next to the cashier. There's also this protein bar which says 20 percentage protein, but it's actually 16 percentage in protein, but the remaining is also sugar plus a lot of preservatives. And then I also took the canned juice which is not actually an extract from fruit. But you see the choices that I made, even though I think that I'm making a healthy choice, it's also my behavior that is shaped with the surrounding that I see. And it's not just one supermarket, it's almost all the supermarkets. So yeah, you're right in one way. Human beings, you know, with these choices that we make every day, we become, let's say, less healthier on a long run. The ministry has every right to say that this is going to be a national problem when people become more overweight and epidemic.

Narcis:

We have obesity epidemic in Denmark. That's, that's, that's bad. That's bad because it is proven that people with higher fat content simply are more sick and higher chance to develop chronic diseases and is more likely to use the hospital, the healthcare system.

Arun:

Diabetes, for example. Right. Yeah, right. You know, the diabetes capital of the world. Sorry, you know, diabetes capital of the world. People with more number of diabetes. Where in us that's a huge market. The second most market is actually India. Growingpopulation, growing diabetes. And since. Yeah, and I think Denmark knows this, so they are actually concerned because I think seen from a Danish population perspective, the majority of the Danish population is workforce in the workforce. So there's no one to replace. Right. And that's also something that countries with less population care about. Yeah.

Narcis:

In here public health is very, very important because simply they looked at other countries and they saw that the healthcare system just simply spiraled out of like crazy. Right. Like look at us and see how much it costs to, to go to the doctor. It's, it's crazy. Right. Soimagine putting that burden on the people and not on the state. Because the state will be forced to make choice in the future. Okay, we can't afford this anymore. What do we do now?

Arun:

Right.

Narcis:

So, so, and then it's unfair that because a lot of people make bad choices, then the ones who don't make bad choices have to end up paying for the, for healthcare. Even though they, even though they only use it maybe once in their lifetime. So it's, it's because I useit often since I, ever since I have a child. Right. We go with every little sign straight to the doctor. I mean, you don't want to risk it. Right. Imagine if I had to pay every time I went to the doctor.

Arun:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Narcis:

That would be a huge burden on a new family. Right.

Arun:

So I agree.

Narcis:

I, I feel like, okay, I understand freedom of commerce and I understand that it's. And nobody says to ban these things. You just don't put them in places where people. So if I go to buy chips, I will find them. God, if I, you know, they're hiding now cigarettes. Right. But if you want them, you'll still ask for them at the reception. Give me cigarettes.

Arun:

And they are right next to the cashier. So you didn't want to spend more time searching in the last row. It's probably lying behind besides them. So cigarette is not a choice that they have to spend more time. I think it's like you said, the water is not at a visible point,but the, the fresh, the juices, the canned juices and the prime juices, they're all lying close to the path. So it's also visible in front of people. And yeah, I think it's a, it's a, it's a corporate, corporate thing. But yes.

Narcis:

So if supermarkets will be more. Because right now it's not a regulation yet. And there will be a huge fight in the future between the, the interest of the companies and the interest of the state. So right now that the question is the companies can actually show some steps that they can do better. Like I already see that they putting fruits at the entrance. This is new for a couple of years. Only the case in the past. Right. So now every time we probably have got used to. Got used to it. But now when you enter a supermarket, you should be seeing fruits first.

Arun:

That's good.

Narcis:

Technically, most of them. I'm not sure if everyone respects this, but there's a unwritten convention. It's not a rule by the state, but it's between themselves. They've taken a decision that they need to act More in a more healthy way. So they put actually fruits at the entrance. You shouldn't see anything else besides fruits. Unfortunately, some of them are kind of stealing the, the wave because now they started to put literally at the entrance a few other, let's just say shelves. And they, you wake up with all sorts of offers in those shelves and various products which can also be unhealthy foods. So some of them are still not really fully respecting it. But there is, there is steps in the right direction. Right. But more could be done. Right. Like you said yourself, what if we use this human behavior psychology to actually get people to use more healthy choices? Because as far as I know, healthy options are not necessarily cheaper than unhealthy options.

Arun:

That is exactly rightly, rightly pointed out. It's also more revenue business. Yeah, we can make more revenue out of healthy choices also. That is absolutely not pushing more on that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a good point.

Narcis:

Ban water in, in supermarkets. I, I find it disgusting that I can.

Arun:

Why?

Narcis:

I mean water, you have it at your tap, right? It's perfectly healthy.

Arun:

Yeah. You know, from, from coming from a non European country or a country in India. I can't imagine to drink water from the tap. I first few months when I landed in Denmark, I really doubted. Everybody says to drink water from the tap. Is it really that clean? And I Questioned a lot of stuff. But I've actually noticed it's a good thing that the country is able to supply consumable, drinkable water in the taps. That is very good news. But there's also like, people have no choices to make. They want minerals in water and they want water to taste even better. I think those are the choices that makes like, okay, I want to buy a canned bottle, the water with water bottle which has minerals and whatnot. You can add more amenities to that. So I haven't really fancied to buy a water bottle in Denmark.There were only few cases where I went to some communes where it by the government, they say, oh, our public municipal supply line has been infected with this call. What do you see there? The levels of bacteria has grown. So we advise not to drink. And the people issue bottled water unless otherwise. I think it's a. It's free. But is it, is it the same in rest of Europe or is it in only few select countries in Europe that that has.

Narcis:

I have a hard time telling you that to be honest, because I, I would not remember. I've been in most of the European countries, but not every European country has good Tap water? No, definitely not. I think it's only a couple of them who have it because it's very difficult for especially larger countries to keep the drinking water at a good level. You know, there is an authority in Denmark who is responsible to keep the drinking water clean. And they're actually having to do a lot of work to keep it clean. They're buying for example, lands around the water procession plants. So to make sure that farmers don't farm in there. And they're paying them off every year to not dump in certain riverside. There's a lot of money spent to keep the people from poisoning our water. So it's a lot of work behind it.

Arun:

Like we take a really good initiative. Yeah.

Narcis:

Clean water, tap water. Yay. I'm so happy for it. But out there, there is, you know that actually around every, let's just say water work, because that's how it's called. Right? Every water work is owned by its users. So that means you for example, are part of a certain water work. And then you can go to the yearly general assembly and see, okay, how is the quality being maintained? What are they doing with the money? Are they planning? Because for example, water working also decide if the general assembly says, well, let's reduce the price if we make too much money or let's invest it in increasing the capacity or whatever. Let's, let's, let's do something with this. For example, I'm very happy that my. Not water work, but my district heating, they decided to use the money to produce electricity. And during the high, during those years when it was very expensive, the electricity, they sold electricity and they made a lot of money. So that meant that I had a whole quarter where I didn't have to pay for heating because I was part of a very smart district heating who thought about its customers and they were using the money. So we as users in Denmark have a lot of power over our utilities. Just we never think about it. So if you are connected to district heating, if you're connected to water, you are powerful,part of a group of influence. So you can go to the yearly general assembly and see what's happening out there.

Arun:

That's actually, that's actually interesting. I think I. I fall under this G of the commune. I'm not sure if I fall under a four van back or four is a main submage supplier in major parts of Shelland region. And there's a lot of plants. There's one in given it as one in Toss Pro.Because I worked in these projects when I Used to work in my previous company, but I never realized that they had a union where a board where people could show up and contribute or participate.

Narcis:

Yeah. Because it's owned by the users. As I said. It's not only. There's not. The Waterworks are not privately owned in Denmark.

Arun:

Okay.

Narcis:

They own the users.

Arun:

So good information.

Narcis:

But also they're not owned by the state either. So. So for example, if waterwork can also go bankrupt if they manage badly the finances and then people can wake up. They don't have water in a certain area. It's a model where the state doesn't want to get involved,but they don't want to let private companies take over.

Arun:

Take over, Monopolize.

Narcis:

This is the best model in between.

Arun:

And what do they call this? Modelless.

Narcis:

I don't know if there's a name for it, to be honest.

Arun:

Yeah, but that's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I will make some research about it. It's interesting to know. I thought it was monopolized by private companies, but it's interesting to see. Maybe I should dig deep.

Narcis:

There's no profits going to someone.

Arun:

Okay.

Narcis:

Can come back to the users if something interesting. There's a lot of such companies in Denmark. They are like democratically owned companies.

Arun:

That's a. That's an interesting topic to actually dive deep into in the future sessions. Yeah.

Narcis:

Yeah. There is like insurance companies that you can choose like that way. There is. There's all sorts. Ara is a. Is such a. Well, no. ARA is a bit different because it's. It's owned by farmers and there's a specific people. Who are those farmers.

Arun:

Correct. Correct. Correct. Now I can connect some dots. Yeah.

Narcis:

Cool. But I think we. We covered a lot of topics for today. We. We. I told you Aron, you worked out for about. But you can easily get into one.

Arun:

Hour of more than an hour actually.

Narcis:

And I know a lot of. A lot of our listeners got used to that one hour format.

Arun:

Okay.

Narcis:

So.

Arun:

But it's. I think first of all, thank you for signing up with this collaboration. What I actually liked in this interview process or podcast we were able to share perspectives from do different. As you pointed out in the initial stay initial part we are able to point out how different we are but we also will still be able to talk about it and share this knowledge or insights to expats living or trying to move to get more information to get to be more informed about the situation. And I've learned so much from the weekly articles that you've been posting for almost four years. Or more than four years, I'm not sure. But that is now interesting to. Yeah, so we're just now growing into a different platform where we actually talk more about or dive deep into such topics, which is an absolute privilege.Narciss, thank you so much for being on the first ever conversation around last week in Denmark. What would you like to say as a closing comments before we end this podcast?

Narcis:

As a closing comment, I can say that let's hope this trial run works well and we can get to see the, the last weekend of our podcast being alive for, well, as long as possible. So thank you Arun, for, for getting involved and bringing it back to, to life and hopefully we'll,we'll see that the people come back to it. It was quite quite popular back back last year but and hopefully people will find it interesting once once again. So otherwise, thank you so much for listening and watching us and stay. See you next week basically.

Arun:

See you next week. Thank you.