Invisible Imbalances in Denmark: Carbon, Rent, and Sleep | LWID S3E13

How do invisible imbalances — in wealth, housing, and health — quietly shape our daily lives in Denmark? This week, Narcis and Golda explore that question through the lens of whether the ultra-wealthy should pay special carbon taxes, the sharp rise in company-owned rental properties and rents across the country, and the growing call for more public housing. Plus, they shed light on a silent epidemic affecting over 400,000 people in their sleep.

In this episode:

1. From Denmark to Gambia  (00:00)
2. Climate emissions class gap (03:36)
3. Company rental apartment crisis (12:48)
4. Sleep apnea causes danger (23:17)

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Chapters

• 0:00 From Denmark to Gambia
• 3:36 Climate emissions class gap
• 12:48 Company rental apartment crisis
• 22:18 Sleep apnea causes danger

Transcript

Narcis: 

Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Last Week in Denmark. You might remember this voice. This is Narcis George Matache and together with me, I have today Golda Fania. Hello, Golda. We haven't done this together. We have done this together before, actually. Somehow we managed to. To have the luck of the draw and do an episode together before. So you can say we have experience now, right?

Golda:

Yeah, we do. It was a great conversation earlier.

Narcis: 

So, Golda, I hear that you are not in Europe right now. You're recording with us from. From another continent. Where are you now?

Golda:

I am in West Africa. Specifically in the Gambia, the smiling coast of Africa. And I decided to still join you guys to share my humble opinions.

Narcis: 

Nice. Nice. Gambia. Is it warm right there now?

Golda:

It is absolutely amazing. Absolutely amazing. Yeah.

Narcis: 

Like, like how hot?

Golda:

That's a good question. I don't know. I can say that it feels like it's 25, between 20 and 25. But it’s very nice. It has a chill breeze as well.

Narcis:

Okay. But that's not bad. Is it easy to get to Gambia or is it very expensive from Denmark?

Golda:

From Denmark it's cheap. There are often flights that come to Gambia. I, I mean, if you're early on, you can find some flights for less than 3,000.

Narcis:

Okay, okay, well, that's not a very cheap idea.

Golda:

Okay.

Narcis:

So because we got that kind of money, you go to, to US and back. But okay, these days nobody wants to go to us. So let's just say you go to Canada and back.

Golda:

Yeah.

Narcis:

So it, it's expensive to go to Africa actually.

Golda:

Yeah. In general, flying in is quite expensive. That's true. Yeah.

Narcis:

Is there another way?

Golda:

I mean, the, the way that's much longer by foot or crossing borders. I know someone who biked. I know someone who biked all the way from, from Copenhagen to Egypt. So it's very, very possible.

Narcis:

To Egypt. Yeah, I understand why. Because you cross in Istanbul, you cross into Asia, and then you go down from Turkey through, through the Middle East. So yeah, that's possible. But okay, then from Egypt you keep going down, I guess. So it should be possible. That's true. By. By car or by bus or by train. I mean, the furthest with the train I did was to go from Denmark to the end of Italy and back, and that was by train. I think that was the, the. The longest distance I ever tried to do by. By train.

Golda:

Was it a cozy trip?

Narcis:

I mean, it was interesting, definitely. It's, it's. It's nice to try different let's just say train cultures in Europe and get treated in different ways, depending on which class you are, depending which country you are. So that, that's, that's definitely an experience to have, right? If you want to, like, be more than just quick in one place. Because then if I have to take the plane, you'll be immediately in, yeah, in, in Rome and that's it. In three hours you're there and you can start exploring, I guess. But the journey is lost, right? There's no longer a journey, part of the trip involved. So if you're looking for that experience as well, then, then you can, you can look into it. 

And actually that's perfect because our first subject today is climate emissions and the fairness of how we, how we talk about taxing people or changing people's behaviors in that direction. And there was a, there was a report that came out recently in Denmark that says that the top 1% person from the top 1% emits 8 times more CO2 than a person from the lower income groups, right? 8 times more. Which is, to be honest, I. It's not super explosive because I, I understand that they spend more, right? They have more money, they consume more, therefore they produce more emissions. Right? I mean, you would expect that, you would expect them flying all the time much more than a normal person can afford much longer distances, right? Maybe even fewer people in a plane, just if they have a private one, most likely. So their consumption is much higher. They have more than one house, they have more than one car. They buy stuff that probably has to be sourced God knows where in what corner of the earth and needs to be brought to them here. So the question is here, if they are worse for the climate than the rest of us, what should we do about it? What do you think, Golda?

Golda:

I think it's quite interesting. As you said, some of this is just lifestyle. And someone might argue why am I getting taxed more for a lifestyle that makes my life easier and I can't really help it. But I would beg to differ. I do think that with the way the climate is going and with global warming and with a lot of green energy and green transition agenda, I do believe that putting a tax in certain areas for that 1% would be good. I know people hate the word tax and I'm probably among those people, but at the same time, I do think we have a responsibility and I think we need to do our part. Like, yeah, you get to travel and you get to live your best life, but then you also owe it to our Planet and society to compensate for that. What do you think?

Narcis:

I mean, taxes, yes, they can have an effect. In the end, it will produce more income to the state and more money for green transition if we tax the 1% for their lifestyle. But in the end, the top 1% globally now speaking, they account for 15% of all emissions. 15%. Just day 1% of the people. Right. So the problem here is actually, should it be only about taxing them for their lifestyle, which they will just see it as a convenience tax. They can afford it, definitely, because we cannot go too crazy with those taxes anyway. Yes, it will generate new revenue, but it will not change their lifestyle. And if they continue their lifestyle, they will still account for 15% of all emissions. So shouldn't we think of a way that will make them more sustainable? I mean, it's okay to have this 1% people. Yes, there are people who are very rich or can get very rich, but is it okay for them to keep living their best life, as you said, at the expense of all others? Because the price that we all pay for their convenience, is that fair? Like, yes, I understand this is their lifestyle choice, but lifestyle choice affects me as well. Who doesn't have the right to have that lifestyle anyway? But even if I had the right for that lifestyle, the Earth can't afford. Like, imagine if we all acted like the 1%. It will be a horrible disaster. So technically, the planet cannot even accommodate the existence of everyone being rich. So here the question is quite simple. How do we get the rich people to change their lifestyle? Simply, we cannot afford them to do that. So can you see a way that you can convince rich people to be more responsible?

Golda:

That's a great question. Besides, taxes, even taxes doesn't help. I would say no. I would say no. It's so hard to change human behavior and it's so hard to take away privileges. And it's an ideal. I wish we could do it, but personally, I don't think we could try to dismantle the system and yeah, spread awareness and of course, speak into it, but it's, it's very, very hard. I was listening to a podcast, another podc, and it was this millionaire guy talking about the responsibility that he had towards, like, young people and all the, the false things that we're telling young people, like, oh, you just need to work hard and you're going to be a millionaire. And he's like, no, like 90 of those people work really hard and they still don't become millionaires. Like, we need to stop lying to People, but he's like a needle in a haystack. Most rich people made their, their billions so that they can live luxury life. And who are we to tell them not to do that? Like what, why they, they will have their inheritance, they will pass it down to their children and they will pass on. So it might sound a bit like. A pessimistic perspective, but they'll continue the same lifestyle.

Golda:

Yeah, I think the best thing is just to get the, the masses because 1% is a little. So that means 90 people, let's get them to like really be climate conscious and then hopefully we can compensate for the lack of that 1%.

Narcis:

Well now it depends how fast we do that because as you can see in us the rich people kind of took over the power and now they are controlling the. Yeah, everything that happens in there because kind of you can say that US has become a plutocracy, Right? When rich people run the country, it's called the plutocracy, it's no longer a democracy. So the question is in U S. They responded. Right, because where do we have the most people in the world that are very rich? Most likely in U S. Of course I do not know that, that's not a verifiable fact, but it's a, it's an assumption, I believe that most rich people are in U S. It might not be the case, but in Denmark we also have them. Right? So now, yes, maybe we cannot really refer to the whole world, but let's refer to our own home ground, our few 1 percenters that we have. Few, I mean, in the end is still 1% of the 6 million that we have. So what is that 6,000 people that we need to make them more climate conscious. 

So how could you do that? Some people for example, mentioned. Maybe there's two ways, as you said, either we take the money from them and then use it to kind of fund the climate transition, which is one way or two restrictions. For example, if you restrict how many times a rich person can use their private plane in a year through a law, there's not much they can do about it. Right. They can move to another country, then we pass on the problem to another country, which usually sometimes happens as well. So yeah, I mean, this is up for the politicians to discuss it. The debate is still at the early stage right now the, the report has really like opened a lot of eyes and people are not happy with the fact that 6,000 people in Denmark are kind of accounting for so much of the climate emissions. And unfortunately a lot of those Climate emissions are not even counted in Denmark's, let's just say, goals, because international travel by plane is not counted. So those flights with their luxury airplanes, they're not counted. And neither is imported goods. So. And a lot of the things that they use most likely is not made in Denmark.

Golda:

It's imported from God knows where. So you can say that even the numbers that we have right now are not very clear. And that's, that's a bit sad, to be honest. In, in my, in my opinion, I feel like we need to start talking about it. We need to make them aware and that we know and we're watching them and that in the end we are the majority. We are living in a democracy. So if we have the tools, regardless of how much lobbying and how much money they put into it, we do have the tools to restrict their lifestyle if we want to. So either they play ball or they don't. And then we have to do something about it. And talking about rich people, we can move on to the next subject, which is about other rich people who kind of changed. Let's just say the, the way our cities look. More and more people in, in Danish cities live in rentals owned by companies. Right now, in the last 15 years it went from 200000 people to 600000 people that live in rental apartments own. I think a lot of people are getting worried about that. Why? Because due To a clause 5.2, if you buy a building as a company and then you renovate it, you're allowed to, let's just say, increase its rent. So you escape kind of the rent controls and then you basically increase the rental price of the entire, in the entire city, entire market. So that's kind of what happened in Denmark, right? The, in the last couple of years the rental prices went sky high because more and more people, not just companies, but even people, are now seeing investments in. Let's. Okay, what should we do? Let's buy an apartment, rent it out and use that as a passive income form. Right? It's, it's the kind of retirement plan for many people like Golda. What's your retirement plan? Are you planning to, to buy an apartment? Or have you thought about that as a way of investment?

Golda:

That's a really interesting question and definitely something that I've considered for a very, very, very long time. Right now I am not living in Denmark, but we do hope to come back soon. And having such like being able to own property is definitely on our list of things that we want to accomplish when we come back. And yeah, just as somebody who loves traveling and not necessarily being in one place, I think having the opportunity to rent my property out and having that passive income sounds to me like, like the best thing. So I think if the government could provide ways in which the average person like myself could come into the real estate market, I think that would be a brilliant idea, to be honest. What about you?

Narcis:

The problem here that it's being raised is that more and more. So basically we live in a, in a society where a lot of people can, can afford to invest quite a part, quite, quite a big part of their income to, to basically buy a second property or a third or a fourth. And that means that more and more properties are not used by the people who are owned, right? So I, I own 10 properties, I live in one of them and nine of them I'm renting. So that's why we got today to the situation where 600,000 or more than 600,000 people live in other people's apartments, basically because they are owned by companies and private people. The problem is it's a great investment. Yes. It's a steady, stable income. It is. Should people do that? I guess if they can and the laws permits, why not? But the problem is that more and more companies are starting to get a bit greedy. 

So one thing is me and you owning 1, 2, 3 apartments on the side. Another thing is company buying 10 buildings, renovating them, and then putting them up on the market at a much higher rental price, pushing the rent price higher, which is good for us because also our rent can go higher and which makes means we can make more money from the properties that we have. But at the same time, it makes life really difficult for newcomers, especially internationals who have to give a much bigger part of their income to rent. It makes life difficult for single people who don't have two incomes to combine. Right. Basically it makes housing a lot less affordable. Luckily, both me and you are not exactly newcomers in Denmark, which means that we are not in that situation to be affected that much about it. But if we were newcomers in Denmark, then having to pay more than half of your salary for rent will mean that we will never be able to put together the money necessary to buy our own property. Right? So basically you're trapping people into like a situation to be renters for life. And renters for life is horrible. I highly, highly encourage people to not consider being renters for life because they will be burning through a huge chunk of their income for no reason. It's basically money that you blow up in the air. You might as well buy fireworks with it.

Golda:

Not fireworks. I completely understand what you mean. I do understand what you mean. And yeah, from, from the perspective of expats moving into Denmark, it can be hard. But I also think that if companies are buying up spaces, then there should be some type of clause to say that if it is a company owning X amount, then maybe there should be a cap to allow the average person to be able to get into this business model. Because I think it is a good business model for people who save up money and then have properties to rent.

Narcis:

Okay, right.

Golda:

I don't think like I, when I lived in Denmark, I rented a property from a girl who owned the apartment and she lived in Poland, for example. And I thought that was a fine arrangement. We had a contract. And trying to find a place to stay also gives you the opportunity when it's like the average person that is renting and sometimes it's even more affordable. But I also understand what you mean by when it's the companies, they can get greedy and then it just becomes a nightmare. And I'm, I'm like, you, rent shouldn't cost that much, to be honest. It should not take up 70% of your, your income.

Narcis:

No, that would be horrible.

Golda:

Absolutely terrible.

Narcis:

You know, it's a bit strange because the reason why we are in this situation is because to two reasons. One, the municipalities have this stupid cap that means that they cannot go into debt to build more properties. So, you know, more public housing that will be obviously affordable and rent limited social housing as well. So for people who can't afford higher rent prices, but also poly foreigning, right, Associations, the building associations that normally have not for profit rents also they kind of stopped investing lately. They kind of stopped building. So that's why there's this debate right now, like what's happening? Why are we not creating more public housing? Because if there was more public housing out there, it will challenge the private ones, so it will keep in check the rent prices. So here we have two solutions. One, either we zone more buildings and say, okay, this building for example, can only be owner occupied and cannot be rented out. That's one way. 

Or you build more because we need more. We need to build way more. And if we build more, then you challenge the market and you keep the rent price down. Basically the politicians have a choice to make here. What are they going to do? Are they going to rezone areas and limit private companies building and refurbishing? Or are they going to start building themselves. That's the question. Right. And I also think that we are in a very good spot economically. Denmark especially is very well off right now. So maybe pushing, pressing even deeper, the pedal into it and starting to build a little bit more that will generate workplaces that will increase economic activity even further. So it's not necessarily a bad thing to have a bit of competition on the, on the housing market. Right. So that's how you can keep in check companies, I would say.

Golda:

Yes, I agree. That's a good perspective.

Narcis:

I agree with you that we should have a balance. We should be able to allow people to invest their savings into other properties and they should be able to make a decent income out of it, at least more than whatever. Even if you had to invest in, let's say, shares and bonds. But at the same time we should kind of have some limits to it. Let's say 1, 2, 3 properties. Great. But 350, not great. You know, it's like limits. You know, it's like modesty in a way. Like, yes, it's okay, have three apartments, they can pay off for your, I don't know, pension at the old age. Hell have 10 if you really have like an expensive lifestyle. But not 350. You know, when you have 350, you basically owned half of a city.

Golda:

Oh, not great.

Narcis:

Yeah, There needs to be some, some balance. And isn't Denmark all about that? Right. It's all about modesty. It's about place for everyone. Because I mean, like you said, it should be somehow more affordable. Because if, if more and more companies are fighting over the leftover buildings to be renovated, they will also push the price higher, which means that the, the smaller people with smaller, let's say capital will never have a chance to get in, into it. So like creating some schemes like you said, checks and balance could be interesting to, to look at. So that, that's definitely something that food for thoughts and people remember. If you don't want to live in rents owned by companies, there's always a chance to sign up on a waiting list for one of those bully foreigning. Right. And then hopefully if you don't live in a big city especially, you would get a much lower rent apartment that you can live in. And I would say that would be the, the way to go. And of course, if you're a student, you can live in student apartments. Those are subsidized by the state. So there are ways around it for, for people with lower, let's say income levels to survive on the market. And that was enough about rents. Let's go to our last subject for today, and that is sleep apnea. There's a big debate now in Denmark. Seems that almost half a million people again are suffering from sleep apnea. Golda, have you ever heard of sleep apnea?

Golda:

Yeah.

Narcis:

What is, what is sleep apnea?

Golda:

So basically, sleep apnea is when you struggle to breathe at night when you're sleeping.

Narcis:

Okay.

Golda: 

So I don't know what triggers it, but I know my former roommate in Denmark, she had sleep apnea. I really hope that this is what it is, but yes, that's what I remember it to be.

Narcis:

It is. It is that. That's. That's what sleep apnea is. And unfortunately, it seems to have terrible effects on, on the society. We were not aware of it. But first of all, very few people are diagnosed, which means that very few people are being treated for it. And that means three things. One, they get to fall asleep, strangely, in the middle of the day. They can be in a work meeting, they can be driving, and they will just close their eyes and disconnect. That's a big problem because it seems that they lead to a lot of traffic accidents, they lead to a lower productivity at work, and they lead to an increased cost on our healthcare. Why? Because sleep apnea, untreated, unchecked, leads to terrible health developments. Like, it can really lead to, like, other diseases. It kind of like paves the way. And first of all, it makes you in danger. Imagine you're just, you know, in a meeting and you just disconnect in the middle of it, or you're driving. Can you imagine that?

Golda: 

I can. It sounds like that's dangerous, but it's very dangerous. Yeah. I think also it's because with snip apnea, you're not really sleeping at night. You're tossing, you're turning. You know, your airways can be blocked at times. And you know, sleep is so important. Like, sleep is when your brain starts to like, process everything from the day and re. Rejuvenate. And whenever you have a little sleep, your entire day is just messed up, you know?

Narcis:

Exactly. So that's, that's what I'm, I'm like, we need. If you are in a situation where you, you have all these symptoms, you are tired during the day, you. You have a low appetite, a low drive in general, you're like, simply without energy. You fall asleep out of nowhere. And people tell you that you do that because sometimes you don't know yourself. Go and get yourself diagnosed because there are things to do out there. You can, for example, if you're smoking, if you give up smoking, that can lead of an improvement or losing weight, or having this machine at night that can put over your face that ensures air circulation even when you stop breathing. So that basically gives you the rest that you need. We haven't found the magical treatment for it. So it's not, it's chronic, I would say, unfortunately it's not treatable yet, but you can treat symptoms and you can keep it in check in a way so that it doesn't have leads to worse effects and it doesn't lead to, you know, you falling asleep during the day. I think that's, that's, that's the most dangerous thing.

Imagine that you're driving on the street and then you, the driver on the other side simply stops, like closes its eyes and then loses control over the car. And unfortunately they seem to a lot of traffic accidents. Now they start making sense because they start looking at this sleep apnea and it seems to be like a society disease. It's so big that one in ten people have it. And that's just early estimations. They call it the, the sleep pandemic. The, the pandemic in your bedroom, basically. And we need to deal with it right now. Luckily, there's people researching, we have in Denmark some of the best researchers in the world and they are looking into, okay, what can we do with this? It is, it has a huge cost in lives, in productivity, for society. So how should we deal with this? Do you know anyone besides your roommate that has sleep apnea? Have you ever noticed anyone, let's say in a meeting that is just dozes off and falls asleep?

Golda:

No, actually not. I just know because of my roommate and the struggles that we had in the house just seeing her trying to get diagnosed. So I, I really like that what you said about like really seeking help. Talk to your gp, explain some of your symptoms and, and maybe suggest that it could potentially be sleep apnea.

Narcis:

Yeah, and then check the sleep patterns because basically that's what they will do. They will analyze your sleep patterns and they'll try to see if you really are affected by that. And if you are affected by that, then luckily, as I said, there is this oxygen mask. It's not fun to sleep at night with an oxygen mask over your face, but it will severely improve your lifestyle and it will save lives because, you know, especially if you have a driving license. Then comes the question, should people with sleep apnea be allowed to have a driving license? That's another Question. Right. There are all sorts of diseases out there that kind of impair the driving. But we are not really considered. We haven't considered much about. Because we were not at a level where we could detect so well in the past. But the more I think we evolve with our research and our knowledge, the more we should consider who should be allowed to drive. For example, should be everyone allowed to drive? I know it's not fair. Yes, it's. It's not your choice that you got sleep apnea but also knowing that you can fall asleep at the. While driving. That doesn't sound safe to me.

Golda:

No, these some good reflections.

Narcis:

I mean it's. I mean it's not us who's going to decide. We're just discussing now what's possible right out there with. With this sleep apnea. I didn't know it was so bad. And it makes me think because sometimes I do feel very tired and wondering do I have it? I'm thinking about looking into it right. To see okay, is this something that I might have as well or some form of it or some direction of it. Because it's. It's worth looking into it work. It's worth checking out what. What's happening. But anyway, enough about sleep apnea. Just. That's it. As Golda said, go seek out help if you feel like you might be in this situation and improve your life further on. Otherwise. We have gone through all three subjects for today. These were the three main topics that were hotly debated in the. In the Danish media this week. I wish everyone a happy Easter. Enjoy your. Your time together with your friends and family and the rest from work through thankfully the mandated national holidays by the state. So no matter what, you are in holiday now.

Golda

Yes.

Narcis

So we'll see each other again after Easter. Right. Well, I'm not sure when I'm gonna be on the. On the channel again at some point again. But thank you so much Golda for being a great. Yeah. Co host today and yeah. Until next time.

Golda

Until next time. Goodbye.