The Healthy Church Staff Podcast
We're all about helping create a healthy, positive, and spiritually positive environment for church staff members and leadership teams.
The Healthy Church Staff Podcast
The Ministry Training Pipeline Is About to Change Forever
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Have questions or comments? Send to podcast@chemistrystaffing.com
Be sure to subscribe to The Healthy Church Staff Podcast wherever you regularly listen to podcasts.
- - - - -
Is Your Church Hiring?
If your church is searching for a new staff member, reach out to Todd for a conversation on how he might be able to help.
Are You Looking for a New Ministry Role?
If you are open to a new church role in the next few months, add your free resume and profile at ChemistryStaffing.com.
Two Finalists And A Hard Choice
SPEAKER_00You've got it down to two. You're looking at two resumes on your desk, and you know a lot about those candidates because you've already interviewed both of them. The first candidate, let's call him candidate A. Because I'm not really good at coming up with fake names. Candidate A has a master's degree, a master of divinity, $80,000 in student debt. You know that because that came up in the interview. And you're offering $45,000 for the role. Candidate B has five years of marketplace leadership, a heart for ministry, but he has no formal theological training. Now, 10 years ago, this was a pretty easy choice to make. Today, not so much. The ministry training pipeline is shifting under our feet. And that's what we're talking about today here on the podcast, the Healthy Church Staff Podcast. Hi there. Welcome to My Friday. If you're listening on the day that this podcast is released, my name's Todd Rhodes, one of the co-founders over at chemistrystaffing.com. I'm really glad that you're here. So the ministry training pipeline, as I said, is has really been shifting under our feet for the past few years. And pretending that it's not happening will not help you or your church. So
When Seminary Debt Breaks The Math
SPEAKER_00let's talk about the math. We've been talking about the math of hiring, particularly when it comes to students that have gone to seminary and have a lot of debt. So we're going to continue that and finish out this series today here on the podcast. Seminary costs have tripled. They've tripled in the last 20 years. Ministry salaries, on the other hand, have stayed basically flat. They've, in some cases, kept up with the rate of inflation. But here's what has happened over the past 25 years. We've asked people to go get a $60,000, $80,000, $100,000 degree, going to $60,000, $80,000,000 in debt for a $40,000 to $50,000 job. And the math just doesn't work anymore. And the people who can afford it often aren't the ones that you most want to hire. We've accidentally created a system over the years that selects for privilege, not for calling. So,
Marketplace Leaders Without The MDiv
SPEAKER_00meanwhile, something else has been happening outside of the church in the marketplace. And the talent pool is really shifting there as well. Some of the sharpest ministry minds I know never went to seminary. And some really sharp seminary graduates are choosing after getting the degree in theology, after getting the masters in church leadership or whatever, that normally 20 years ago would have been a shoe-in, just a natural progression from, hey, I've got this degree. Now I'm going to go work in the church. And I know some really sharp people that are getting seminary degrees that are just figuring out that, hey, if I take a job at a church, I'm never going to be able to pay off even the student debt loan that I have. And they end up taking a job in the corporate world with that seminary degree. They learned that leadership in corporate America is maybe just a little bit better financially for them. And they cut their teeth on real budgets and actual teams. Some of these, they're sharp people. They understand systems, they understand people development, they understand organizational health. And you don't necessarily need to go to seminary, although seminary can help in many of these situations. They're looking for really meaningful work, but our job descriptions still say MDiv. We need an MDiv for this role. Now listen, I'm not anti-seminary. I've mentioned that a couple times this week, and I hope I don't get emails from you or anybody else saying Todd is just poo-pooing all over seminaries. First of all, I don't poo-poo on anything, I don't think, hopefully. But seminaries are great. Theological training matters. It's great. Biblical literacy, particularly when you're a preacher or a teacher, it's crucial. But we might be confusing the goal with the method here.
Hire For Heart Develop Competency
SPEAKER_00Okay. The best churches are already starting to adapt for this. They're hiring for character and competency, but they're also hiring for coachability. They've created internal development tracks. They're partnering with online programs and leadership institutes. They're mentoring instead of requiring, in every case, those degrees. They're bringing people on into internships and residency programs. And guess what? Churches that are leaning in and doing this and not necessarily requiring those seminary degrees, again, not against seminary degrees. I'm against the debt that comes from seminary degrees, though. The churches that are looking at the third way, their teams are actually thriving. Now, what this means when we don't adapt, okay, we've talked a little bit about how things have changed, particularly the last six years. What happens though if we don't adapt to this changing market, this changing landscape of seminary degrees going up three times and church salaries staying about the same? If we don't adapt, you keep waiting for that perfect candidate who doesn't exist. And a lot of times they don't exist be they exist, but they can't come to your church because they can't afford to. What else happens when you don't adapt? You settle for somebody who checks boxes, somebody who you can afford but can't actually lead. Maybe you miss incredible people because they don't have the right letters after the name. Maybe your pipeline stays broken while other churches seems like they're figuring it out. Well let me do something a little weird here. Let me ask you to think about Jesus' hiring strategy. Okay, I know. Jesus didn't hire people, he didn't necessarily have people on his payroll. But think about it, okay, for a second though. Jesus hired fishermen and tax collectors. He brought on zealots. There was not one seminary graduate in the whole bunch. He trained them on the job. Paul was a marketplace guy who learned ministry through mentorship. And now maybe we're overthinking this. Todd, there wasn't a Dallas Theological Seminary for crying out loud that Paul could have gone to. If there was, he would have gone to it. Let me just suggest that maybe we're overthinking this a little bit. Here's your
Fix Job Descriptions And Get Help
SPEAKER_00bottom line for today. The churches that thrive in the next decade will be the ones that hire for heart and develop for competency, not the ones waiting for perfect resumes. So this week, I'd love for you to look at your job descriptions. How many requirements are actually biblical necessities versus traditional preferences or even denominational preferences? What would happen if you posted theological training provided instead of an MDiv required? You might be surprised who applies because the ministry pipeline is changing, whether we like it or not. And if you haven't hired at your church for the last five or six years or 10 years, and you start to hire, you're looking for a new position. Let me tell you, let me tell you, as somebody who does this full time, the landscape has changed. It is not going to be the same hiring today as what it was 10 years ago. It's just not. The question is, will you adapt with it or will you get left behind? I hope this is helpful. And if you don't know how to adapt, you're like, Todd, man, I just I don't we we've not hired for the last 10 years. I don't know how it's different, and I don't know how to adapt. And yeah, I want an MDiv or I want a doctor of theology for our next senior pastor. And you're telling me I might not be able to get it for what I can pay. What I'm telling you. I'd love to have that conversation. Matter of fact, we enter into these kinds of conversations every day, every week here at Chemistry Staffing with churches, really just trying to figure out who can I hire, who should I hire, who can I afford, who I can't afford. Put this all into perspective as to who God really has for your next leader or your next staff member. If you need some help in that area, you're not alone, man. We come alongside churches all the time, just like you, that need somebody just to speak in and give some expertise that they don't have. And there's no harm, no foul. If you've not been in that hiring arena for a while, we'd love to help you bring you up to speed. And if there's any way we can partner with you, we'd love to help you to do that. We're an honest broker here. We'd love to have a conversation with you. And I'd love to have a conversation with you. Go ahead and email me, podcast at chemistry staffing.com, if you'd like to hear a little bit more. And see, we'll see. I'd love to hear your story and see if there's any way that
Weekend Sendoff And Closing
SPEAKER_00we can help you. All right, that's it for today. Hope you have a great weekend. Man, it's 4th of July weekend. So I hope you go and enjoy and celebrate America's 250th birthday. All right, we'll see you back here on Monday at the Healthy Church Step Hunter.
