Navigating the New Normal: The Integration of Virtual Assistants and Workplace Dynamics with Pam Butera

Embark on an insightful expedition into the world of virtual work with us, as we debate the resurgence of traditional office environments against the backdrop of our post-pandemic reality. Crowded parking lots and lively city centers are painting a familiar picture, but is the in-person collaboration worth sacrificing the flexibility so many have grown accustomed to? We wrestle with this question, bringing personal tales to the forefront, including a family member's leap to a virtual law firm, and examine the impact of remote work across various industries, particularly in real estate.

Pam Butera joins the conversation to share her transformative journey with virtual assistants, and how this strategic shift has revolutionized the real estate sector. From her initial doubts to the establishment of a seamless virtual workforce, we uncover the role of technology and specialized assessments in perfecting the VA-client dynamic. The episode peels back the layers on the recruitment process and the undeniable benefits of cross-continental collaboration, providing listeners with a blueprint for integrating virtual assistance into their own business models.

We then step into the control room of a successful VA team, revealing what makes the engine hum. Pam's vision for her company, Cyberbacker, and the real estate industry takes center stage as she outlines her blueprint for expansion and the hurdles of solo entrepreneurship. From the pages of her current read to the cherished wisdom of past favorites, Pam imparts a gem of guidance for the eager minds shaping the future of business.

About Pam Butera:
Pam Butera bought the Greater Philly Cyberbacker Franchise, a Virtual Admin Company, in 2021. When the opportunity was presented, Pam jumped on it. Pam has been running her own Residential Real Estate team completely virtual and has had a fantastic experience working with VA's. Now, they have 125 clients in the Greater Philly Area and are growing every day!

Connect with Pam:
Website virtualleveragesolutions.com
LinkedIn linkedin.com/in/pamela-butera-ba468a5
Instagram instagram.com/greaterphillycyberbacker
Facebook facebook.com/greaterphillycyberbacker

This episode is brought to you by Cyberbacker, your own personal assistant for a fraction of the cost!  Go to VirtualLeverageSolutions.com to learn more.

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Are you a visionary founder with a compelling success story that deserves to be shared with our audience? We're on the lookout for accomplished business leaders like you to be featured on the Founders' Forum Radio Show and Podcast. If you've surmounted challenges, reached significant milestones, or have an exciting vision for the future, we'd be honored to have you as a guest on our show. Your experiences and insights can inspire and enlighten others in the business world. If you're eager to share your journey and the invaluable lessons you've learned along the way, we invite you to apply here.

Transcript

Announcer: 0:00

The following programming is sponsored by Marc J Bernstein. The views expressed do not necessarily reflect the views of this station, its management or Beasley Media Group. Entrepreneur, author and financial consultant, Marc Bernstein helps high-performing entrepreneurial business owners create a vision for the future and follow through on their goals and intentions. Ang Onorato is a business growth strategist who blends psychology and business together to create conscious leaders and business owners who impact the world. Founders Forum is a radio show podcast sharing the real stories behind entrepreneurship as founders discover more about themselves, while providing valuable lessons and some fun and entertainment for you. Now here's Marc and Ang.

Marc Bernstein: 0:42

Good morning America. How are you? I had a little blip there, cut in before the commercial. Anyway, we're live on the radio on WWDB AM 860 in Philadelphia, but you're most likely listening to us on our podcast, which is available on all streaming services. It's a beautiful day today in sunny Philadelphia. It's not always sunny in Philadelphia, but today it is. How are you today, ang?

Ang Onorato: 1:11

I am well, and I think it has to be sunny in Philadelphia, or you know, we're going against the grain, but it's definitely a beautiful day today.

Marc Bernstein: 1:19

So I'm thinking about something. As we came into the radio station today, I noticed that the parking lot is getting really crowded and I was talking to TJ In fact, tj, you may want to join us for this conversation a little bit and TJ is our engineer, producer, wonder, kind, whatever you know, does everything for us. He's great. So it's getting more crowded and more and more in office buildings and in center city Philadelphia and other places you start to see more and more cars and you know we went from the pandemic to where people are getting back to work. Quick story I was at a Passover Seder last night and one of my nephews was there.

Marc Bernstein: 1:57

He's an attorney who was working for a very large law firm and getting paid a lot of money right out of law school and he didn't really want that kind of lifestyle.

Marc Bernstein: 2:10

So he went to in-house counsel at a law firm and he's telling me about a compatriot of his who decided that after being in and out of the firm he also went out as general counsel and came back in and it wasn't the lifestyle for him. And he's talking to a national it's the first time I've heard it but a national virtual law firm where there is no real estate and I thought, hmm, because it seems like people are going the other way, that people are coming back into the office. Some law firms are requiring people there four or five days a week. Now, three to five days a week, I would say, and I know in our own business we've been virtual for other reasons. We have real estate construction going on and we can't wait to get back in the office because there's something missing.

Marc Bernstein: 2:58

There's the camaraderie, the culture a little bit, and I'm just wondering what you're all seeing about that. We'll start with Angela, we'll go with Angela, we'll go around the table, we'll ask our guest, pam, who we'll introduce in a minute, and also TJ. What do you see?

Ang Onorato: 3:11

Yeah, I mean I personally have been virtual for the most part since I hate to say it, but since the late 90s, you know, I've had stints in offices and so I'm kind of one of the first generation of people to do it, but we always had the office available right. So you always had the office, just had the flexibility of being from home, and I think that you do miss some things being in the office. But I think what's super important for people today is life is too demanding and I think the flexibility and needing to be home and to not feel like you miss a beat, to be virtual and leverage the technology and really, if you ask me, after 30 years of being executive recruiting, I think we have to learn how to let employees be treated as adults, so know that they're going to get their work done and, you know, just kind of find a good way to combine it all. But I think the trend's going both directions, depending on what industry you might be in and what your workforce looks like.

Marc Bernstein: 4:00

That's, I appreciate your opinion and I'm sure there are other opinions, and also I think you're right. It does seem to be going both ways. Pam, what's your insights into this? And we're going to talk specifically with you about virtual work, but let's talk generally about it right now.

Pam Butera: 4:16

Terrific. So I've been running, I think, as you know, I'm a real estate agent and I've been a real estate agent my whole career and I've been running my real estate team completely virtual for the past four years and I had such a tremendous experience with it that I bought the local franchise. And I find like what to Ang's point that it's not one size fits all. There are certain industries that really embrace the full virtual model and then there are others that are a hybrid of it. So we have some clients that have in-person admins and then they're complimented by the virtuals and then I feel like their productivity is just exponential in that sense, and Americans, I think, are trying to adjust to is it full virtual or is?

Pam Butera: 5:01

I think the hybrid model is turning out to be one of the most successful ones because, like to your point, culture is very important these days and when you're working 100 from home, you miss that camaraderie, the synergy. So I I think I think there's a the America like and, to your point, like I had a hard time finding a parking space this morning, which was interesting to me. At the same time, I appreciate that because I feel that we will succeed better in person and not just all virtual.

Marc Bernstein: 5:33

By the way, there's the issue of being stir crazy too. Sometimes, you just need a change of environment, which is a very simple thing, tj. What are you seeing? What do you attribute the full parking lot to? What's going on?

Announcer: 5:45

So when I first came here almost three years ago, there was nobody in the parking lot, maybe, like I don't know, 50 cars. And then, as time went on, now that people are coming back to the office like upstairs and downstairs, parking lots become more and more congested.

Announcer: 6:03

There's got to be at least 500 cars out there, oh yeah, I mean on a Friday morning, if I'm coming in at like 6 am, the lot's still full. I'm thinking why are people here so early? It's just. It's annoying, to be honest, because if I have to come in later or earlier, it's never ending. There's too many cars.

Marc Bernstein: 6:20

Well, welcome back to real life cars. Well, welcome back to real life. So, anyway, well, appreciate all your thoughts on that. Let's introduce Pam. So this is Pam Butera. Pam has had a very successful real estate career. In fact comes from a real estate family. Both her dad and her grandfather were in real estate in the Montgomery County, I think, philadelphia area and since the pandemic, as she mentioned, since it began she's been working with her real estate team virtually and continues that successfully. But about three years ago she came across an opportunity and she bought into the Greater Philly Cyber Backer franchise, which is a virtual administration company. So she actually got into the business that's helping her in her own main business and she's been running her business, as she said, completely virtual and she's having a great experience working with it. But now and this is really what we're going to spend a lot of time talking about she has 125 clients in the Greater Philly area and they're growing every day. So welcome Pam officially.

Pam Butera: 7:29

Thank you.

Marc Bernstein: 7:30

So tell us a little bit about. We always like to hear the story of the founders, like how you got you know, how you grew up in the real estate business, how you got to this point and what you like about what you're starting to do now.

Pam Butera: 7:42

Yes, so so my father and grandfather were both realtors, so I was around it my whole life, so it was just natural to go into real estate. Um, and interesting fact, my mother was my in-person assistant for 18 years.

Marc Bernstein: 7:56

Ah, that's great Interesting.

Pam Butera: 7:58

So and my brother is in the mortgage industry, so I'm around it all the time and it's kind of in my DNA Was your mother.

Marc Bernstein: 8:05

was that a little flip of roles in terms of did you become the boss to your mother?

Pam Butera: 8:10

Oh, of course, and the funny fact is that people would say to me all the time you pay your mother. She was in that office a minimum of 40 hours a week and she really helped jumpstart my career, and who's more devoted to you than your mother, right? So I attribute a large part of my success to that, and I always called her mom in the office too, which it's hard after so many years to call your mom Peggy.

Ang Onorato: 8:37

That was her name it's a family business. That's part of the sell, so I think that's you know rightfully due, I agree, and it definitely attributed to my success.

Pam Butera: 8:45

and be like oh, think that's you know rightfully, do? I agree? And and it definitely attributed to my success.

Marc Bernstein: 8:47

and be like oh, that's your mother, um, so I have been that's come up a couple times recently where people call their dad, ted or whatever in the office but then as soon as they walk out of the office is dad, you know right but anyway, so everyone handles it. I, I guess how they need to, you know.

Pam Butera: 9:02

Exactly. So then fast forward to a couple of years ago. I found that my in-person assistant it wasn't my mother, my mother had long since retired. I found my in-person assistant was never getting all of her tasks completed, because in real estate you're putting out fires a lot and so you have to jump to your client's needs and working on your business gets put on the back burner, and that really frustrated me. So one of my coworkers said well, you should hire a virtual admin. And I'm like what is that? So that was my introduction to the VA world. So I hire this VA only part time.

Marc Bernstein: 9:44

And this is an out of out of country. Yes, yes.

Pam Butera: 9:47

Based in the Philippines, and I was astounded at how efficient they were. And my in-person admin was thrilled because now the pressure it was relieved Right, she didn't have so much stress on her to get everything finished. It was relieved right, she didn't have so much stress on her to get everything finished. Then what started to happen was my VA started to do more than my in-person admin. Then I started to think do I need two admins? What if I make my part-time VA go full-time and I only have one, being the virtual? And so that's what I did four years ago and it's been a huge success.

Marc Bernstein: 10:27

So you have one virtual assistant that helps you operate your real estate practice. Correct, okay, gotcha.

Ang Onorato: 10:32

Correct.

Marc Bernstein: 10:35

So I've had some experiences I've shared with you and I have a very good virtual assistant, shan Estevez, so I'll call her out now and she's in the Philippines. But you know it was hard getting there. I went through some not good experiences with agencies and people and getting the right people and getting the right systems in place, but once I got it it's like the best thing I ever did. She's really doing a great job. The best thing I ever did. She's really doing a great job. What kind of challenges did you have in terms of that and also in terms of you know, when you got into the franchise business yourself? How did that go? Tell me about that.

Pam Butera: 11:17

Well, I think what I was naive about was, like you, like I had a good experience with the VA right off the bat and I just figured everyone else would grasp the concept like me, and it would be so easy to spread. You know, to get business. And I quickly learned like this is not an easy task. I'm so surprised that people aren't grasping the idea of having an efficient admin at a fraction of the cost. People are traditional and they're used to having an in-person admin. And so then I started to realize quickly like well, I'm not here to eliminate the in-person admin, I'm here to enhance your experience. And one of our clients recently he had four in-person admins. He's down to one in-person and he just hired his second administrator, va, who are doing the same amount of work that four in-person ones are doing. He's blown away by the whole concept. Now he's one of our biggest advocates.

Pam Butera: 12:22

So that was something that was a learning curve for me. And it's not one size fits all, and I understand that. The other thing too is the Filipinos, which is where our virtuals are based. A lot of them. They're very Americanized, which is a big win. Their grammar and their English sometimes can be a little bit of a struggle. So our home-based company focuses very strict about only hiring people that have um good english and grammar and what has really helped is ai and chat gpt, and I've had some clients so I've started to to emphasize this in our marketing that, yes, so your va may not be perfect at their grammar, but they'll run it through chat gpt and it comes out more than perfect For writing right.

Pam Butera: 13:17

For writing right, Like if they are going to compose.

Marc Bernstein: 13:19

It doesn't work for speaking yet probably.

Pam Butera: 13:22

Yeah, so for speaking. A lot of our VAs don't do much speaking with clients. We do have a category that you'd pay extra to get one that their grammar is excellent. So we do have a category of functionality for that, if that's what you desire.

Marc Bernstein: 13:41

Is. Another challenge I have to imagine is getting the right person for the right client.

Pam Butera: 13:46

Yes.

Marc Bernstein: 13:47

The fit. So how do you accomplish that?

Pam Butera: 13:50

That's a great question. So our founder, his name's Craig Goodliffe. He's a big believer in matching personality style, so he designed what's called the CBPA, the Cyber Backer Personality Assessment. So each one of our virtuals takes this CBPA and then you learn okay, so this virtual is analytical, this one's creative. Okay, so this virtual is analytical, this one's creative. And then, depending on what our client wants like if a client wants a VA that can do social media, we will match them with a VA that's creative.

Marc Bernstein: 14:26

Does it always work out the first time or do you sometimes have? Is it trial and error with people sometimes? No, it doesn't always work out the first time I had a feeling that's why it's like any kind of recruiting.

Ang Onorato: 14:36

Doesn't Trust me.

Pam Butera: 14:38

And I also think that our clients this is another learning curve that I had so many of our clients had never had an admin ever, and there again, that was an eye opener to me because I've always had an admin, so I've learned to help our clients with the hiring process. And one of the things that CyberBecker does if you don't get it right the first time, you can ask to interview new ones for no charge, no extra charge.

Marc Bernstein: 15:12

I'll tell you. One other challenge is, as I mentioned, finding the right agency, and the agencies are often based in the Philippines and I've truthfully probably had more trouble with the agencies than I've had with the assistants. So it's good to know that you can. If you're in the United States, you can go to a United States company. They can handle a lot of these things in English but yet still have the advantage of the Filipinos that I've seen have great work ethic and they, you know, they have to work reverse hours a lot of the times and it doesn't phase them and it's a lot of money for them. Even though it's a fraction of what we would pay, it's a lot of money for them, so they really appreciate it. So it's really a great resource that you're offering to people in an easier, I think, to manage type of environment. With that, I think it's time for a quick break and we've got a lot more to talk about with Pam Butera in a minute.

Announcer: 16:12

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Marc Bernstein: 17:07

We are back on Founders Forum with Ang Onorato and Pam Butera. And Ang, I think you had some things you wanted to say.

Ang Onorato: 17:14

Yeah, you know. So when we have these kind of conversations, I always love to kind of get in with the founder and determine how is it that you build the culture, what is the culture of your company, how does that tie into business growth and all of that? But, as you've just described, before the break, your business is almost the reverse of that question, meaning you've got this assessment now for the people that you place and this is a world close to me it's very similar to recruiting and what I've done for many, many decades. But so the question is almost how do you actually determine the culture of the client that you're trying to place with Like, so what? And there's an intake, I'm certain. But you know how do you go about that approach to find out?

Pam Butera: 17:56

here's what they're telling you they're stressed with, but what's really going to be the best fit for them. That's a great question. So I have a team of VAs that help me with this, and the first person that our new client would talk to is called a growth backer and his focus is to determine what our client's needs are. And we do that through an assessment determine what our clients' needs are. And we do that through an assessment and I call it our job description and we put 10 to 12 tasks on there. We don't like to do more than 10 to 12 because we feel then you're setting up your VA for failure. They can really probably only master 10 to 12 tasks. Then a couple months in you can adjust that job description.

Pam Butera: 18:31

It's not in stone, but we find that if you give us a few areas of focus, very specific areas that you want to accomplish in your business, then they can tackle that to start, and it's been very successful. And then so, after you design your job description, then our career backer comes in and basically what she does is she's in on the conversation with learning and hearing firsthand what the client wants and what their needs are. Then her specialty is to go find the VA that's going to be appropriate and best fit the needs of our client. So, like, if our client wants a lot of social media, she's going to look for a VA that has a creative background. If we have a client that needs a lot of bookkeeping, then we'll look for a VA that has a good analytical background. Does that make sense? Is?

Marc Bernstein: 19:25

that done at the franchisor level or at your level?

Pam Butera: 19:29

You have these people within your group yes, so they directly report to me. They're my team and we've been together now I guess it's like a year and a half and we're a really well-oiled machine.

Marc Bernstein: 19:43

Nice. Yeah, was it hard to find those people? Because that's a fit kind of job as well.

Pam Butera: 19:53

Yes, so the growth backer, this is my second one. I thought my first one was excellent until I met my second one, and then I was like wow.

Marc Bernstein: 20:01

No offense to the first one if they're listening.

Ang Onorato: 20:04

I know that sounds like a. Really that's the most critical because it's a major touch point, so not getting that right doesn't let the rest of the process take place.

Pam Butera: 20:13

Because he's, in a sense, sort of like my salesman as well, because they don't they haven't already signed up. When they talk to our growth backer, he kind of pushes them over the edge and gets them really hooked on it. I typically talk to them first and I also make sure that our clients know I'm a local and very hands on, and so that, I think, is also to like to your point, Marc, is that having someone local in a virtual world is not that common, and so, like for instance, yesterday, one of my clients called me and she's like Pam, I'm struggling with this, can you help out? And I know exactly how to handle her issue. So which is also then turns them into advocates for us, because they're like oh, pam's accessible, you can physically meet her if you want.

Pam Butera: 21:02

I've gone to people's offices and met with them firsthand to help them, because what happens so often with our clients is they have their virtual and they're like oh my gosh, I thought it would take them all day to do my tasks and they did it in half the time. What are some other tasks, pam, that I can have them do? And I love when they call and talk to me or ask me to come to their office and sit down with them.

Marc Bernstein: 21:26

That's a pleasant dilemma.

Ang Onorato: 21:28

It's fantastic. It's great You're able to consult with them and help, rather than selling them something. You're helping them consult and, you know, find avenues where they can be more leveraged, which helps them grow and work on the business, not in the business which is always the big goal right, it's the challenge and because then it's a win-win?

Pam Butera: 21:48

because then their VA they like to be busy, right, they don't like to sit around and twiddle their thumbs and then our client is leveraging themselves and growing their business turns them into an advocate for us. We get a tremendous amount of referrals. We have one client she has eight virtual admins. She doesn't have one in-person admin any longer. It's pretty amazing.

Marc Bernstein: 22:12

I'm thinking about your real estate practice. You have a team of other realtors, right? So how do they? What's your culture like on your team, given the fact that all the assistants are virtual?

Pam Butera: 22:30

So they really appreciate their efficiency as well and they're always available for them. So I don't have like a hierarchy in that sense that our virtual is available for them at any moment, at any given time, because their business is just as important as mine. And I think what they're always amazed by is they'll be like Pam, do you think they can do this? I'm like, of course they can, so they love that. There's no limit to what we can ask for our VAs to do.

Marc Bernstein: 23:02

And your team of realtors is also virtual, correct? Or do you actually meet in person and have team meetings and things like?

Pam Butera: 23:10

that no, we don't do anything in person now and they prefer it, so we'll go to lunch person now and they prefer it, so we'll go to lunch. And when we talk and we text a ton and we email a ton and we talk like when they have issues. We have an office sales meeting once a month that we attend in person, which it's nice to be around other fellow realtors too to collaborate on certain things. But the real estate, especially since the pandemic, is really transitioned into a virtual industry.

Marc Bernstein: 23:45

So let's say you have a I mean in the old days, because I have a lot of realtor friends and I've been to some of their parties and stuff and when they have a good year they have a big celebration and the assistants would be there because they're part of the team and all that. Your assistants aren't there In the sales meeting. Do you include them virtually, or do they?

Pam Butera: 24:05

Yes, yes, we do include them. We do a lot of meetings via Zoom.

Marc Bernstein: 24:10

And do you send them drinks? No, I'm kidding, virtual happy hours.

Ang Onorato: 24:14

I've been on many virtual happy hours.

Ang Onorato: 24:16

I know it's important you just have the, the face time and I just want to point out real quick you know Marc had mentioned earlier that you know the cost of living and the appreciation that, um, I'm in another business and we've got some virtual vas in the philippines and it it is one of the overarching, I think, best scenarios, because not only does it help us as business owners but, man, when you feel we've had a VA one-time breakdown in tears and say I've been here three years and you have no idea I've retired my mom, I've put my kid through school, I mean where else can you do grow your own business and feel philanthropic, or just that you're, you're growing across the. You know the wider impact on the world. I just think it's it's pretty amazing.

Pam Butera: 24:57

It is pretty amazing and I appreciate you bringing that up because, I believe Marc said earlier, you know their pay grade is very different than here in the United States and it's kind of hard to wrap your head around it.

Pam Butera: 25:09

It is I struggle with that, I don't disagree, and the founder of our company has built a profit-sharing program that they can participate in. So now they have a retirement plan. If they choose, they can finance a home through Cyberbacker, they can buy a car through Cyberbacker, so it's a win-win on both sides of the hemisphere, as I say.

Marc Bernstein: 25:34

Very interesting. We just have a few minutes left. So I know you have a vision for the future for Cyberbacker and, I think, for your real estate business. You want to just tell us. So if we were talking, and it's this date in April, and it's 2027, and we're looking back on the last three years, what would have to happen, pam, for you to say, hey, this was a really successful three-year period. Well, so I'm only one person and, like I said earlier, spreading the word If you were more than one person, we'd be having a different conversation. But anyway, go ahead.

Ang Onorato: 26:09

That'd be a three-hour podcast.

Pam Butera: 26:11

Well, and that's one of my very what's at the forefront of my mind daily is to have another me on the streets, right, you know, pounding the streets, drumming up business. And so by 2027, I really hope to accomplish that because I know we offer such a tremendous service and we're also expanding in all sorts of industries. Like, one of our new clients is a doctor and he is beyond thrilled because medical billing apparently is very cumbersome. I didn't really understand it. Sometimes he wasn't even billing his clients for months on end. It's unbelievable. So and then we have a client in the city that has an event space now that is thriving because of social media that our VAs are doing. So what I'm bringing up is I want to get into as many different industries locally as I can in the five-county area.

Marc Bernstein: 27:03

How many clients would you have three years from now? Have you thought about that?

Pam Butera: 27:07

Ideally it would be 350.

Marc Bernstein: 27:08

350.

Pam Butera: 27:10

We have 125 now. I'd like to get to 200 this year. So we'll see. Excellent, We'll see.

Marc Bernstein: 27:18

Excellent. What challenges do you find in terms of how? I guess that's one of your challenges is that you're only you. I'm only me, yes, anything else, is that the main?

Pam Butera: 27:27

one. So that's probably the main one With our clients. For me personally, to touch on them on a regular basis is a struggle for me, because I want them to all know they're all equally as important and I want them all to thrive and succeed. So that's a struggle for me on a daily basis to just say hey, I'm thinking of you, Do you need any help? What can I do to help you leverage? So you need a second you.

Marc Bernstein: 28:00

So how will you do that? What's your plan for a second you?

Pam Butera: 28:03

I'm going to hire a salesperson. Yeah, got it.

Marc Bernstein: 28:07

Sounds like salesperson slash kind of caretaker relationship manager.

Pam Butera: 28:12

Yes, customer service is very important to me.

Marc Bernstein: 28:15

We're going to switch gears real quick. We have about a minute and a half left. What book are you currently reading?

Pam Butera: 28:23

Oh, choose your Enemies Wisely. By Patrick Bette David. I'm a big fan of his. That sounds juicy. It's interesting. The title is, I think, a little misleading, of course.

Ang Onorato: 28:36

Right, it's disruptive. Yeah, it sounds great. Think a little misleading, Of course. Right, it's disruptive and yeah, it sounds great. Gets your attention, though it's good yeah.

Marc Bernstein: 28:45

And what?

Pam Butera: 28:46

are your favorite books of all time. Marcus Luttrell, the Lone Survivor. I don't know if you ever read that.

Marc Bernstein: 28:53

I guess not that long ago. I read it and I actually saw him speak. It was pretty amazing.

Pam Butera: 28:56

He's an incredible individual. I never saw the movie because I didn't want to taint the authenticity of the book.

Marc Bernstein: 29:03

I never saw it either. Yeah, the book was amazing.

Pam Butera: 29:06

That's one of my favorite books.

Marc Bernstein: 29:08

And one last question, as we have less than a minute left. If you could speak to your younger self, what advice would you give you? Your second you.

Pam Butera: 29:18

My second me, I know. So you know, having done real estate my whole life, now I would go into a business that had residual income.

Marc Bernstein: 29:28

Gotcha. Well, that's a great quick answer and it's just in time because we thank you for being here today, pam. You're a great guest. Because we thank you for being here today, pam, you've been a great guest. Thank all of you for listening and we look forward to seeing you next week on Founders Forum.

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