Founders' Forum

How Strong Company Culture Drives Growth: Lessons from Joe Arcangelo

• Marc Bernstein / Joe Arcangelo • Episode 82

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What if you could harness the power of resilience to build a successful business? Join us as we explore this with co-host, Jess Hallahan, and guest, Joe Arcangelo, two remarkable entrepreneurs who share their unique perspectives on navigating change and managing stress. Jess, the insightful mind behind Journey to Yourself, offers her wisdom on personal accountability and stress management amidst the mixed emotions of a recent presidential election. Meanwhile, Joe, co-founder of inSeption Group, takes us on a journey through his life, from humble beginnings to becoming a leader in the clinical outsourcing industry, all built on a foundation of integrity and excellence.

As we continue, Joe unveils the secrets behind inSeption Group's success, highlighting the company's unwavering commitment to a culture of excellence and personal accountability. We delve into his ambitious vision for the future and his determination to uphold the values that define his business, even in the face of expansion challenges. Joe's leadership style, characterized by passion, perseverance, and a focus on stakeholder needs, is a testament to the power of maintaining a strong company culture. His insights into recruitment emphasize the importance of character, showing how inSeption Group nurtures both client satisfaction and employee engagement.

We then touch on the personal strategies that keep Joe grounded and balanced in his demanding role. From his love for reading influential books to finding solace in music, Joe exemplifies the art of maintaining work-life harmony. We wrap up with a candid conversation on personal systems and routines, emphasizing how these practices contribute to sustained entrepreneurial success. Whether you're an aspiring entrepreneur or a seasoned business leader, this episode offers inspiration and practical insights to help you thrive in today's ever-changing world.

About Joe Arcangelo:
Joe and his partner founded inSeption Group in September 2011 with a goal to restore and rebuild business trust by delivering high-quality clinical outsourcing in a consistent, efficient, and reliable manner. With more than 35 years in the outsourcing industry, Joe has sought first to understand the intrinsic and extrinsic needs of his stakeholders—employees, clients, patients—and then built a business designed to meet those needs.

The inSeption values—integrity, trust, and passion—are a reflection of Joe’s personal accountability to his clients and teams, and have helped shape the culture of the company. Today, Joe is responsible for cultivating and articulating the vision of inSeption while driving continued growth and sound financial stewardship across all functions and regions. Joe has been the recipient of multiple industry and business awards, including the Ernst and Young Entrepreneur of the Year Award in 2024.

inseptiongroup.com
linkedin.com/in/joseph-arcangelo-4981202

This episode is brought to you by inSeption Group, a full-service clinical outsourcing company. Go to inseptiongroup.com to learn more.

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Announcer:

60 am, philadelphia, and wpen hd2, burlington, philadelphia. The following programming is sponsored by Marc J Bernstein. The views expressed do not necessarily reflect the views of this station, its management or beasley media group. Entrepreneur, author and financial consultant, Marc Bernstein helps high-performing entrepreneurial business owners create a vision for the future and follow through on their goals and intentions. Ang Onorato is a business growth strategist who blends psychology and business together to create conscious leaders and business owners who impact the world. Founders Forum is a radio show podcast sharing the real stories behind entrepreneurship, as founders discover more about themselves, while providing valuable lessons and some fun and entertainment for you. Now here's Marc and Ang.

Marc Bernstein:

Good morning America, how are you? I ask you that question very first of all. I say this on every show Good morning America, how are you? I think it's a good way to begin and it comes from the song, the Arlo Guthrie performed song he didn't write the song the city of New Orleans. Good morning America, how are you? Anyway, so I just love it as a way to introduce the show. But to this morning, I'm really asking America, how are you?

Marc Bernstein:

We had an election yesterday presidential, big congressional and presidential election and half the country is very unhappy and the other half is very happy, and we knew it was going to be that way. However, it turned out and the question I have, and Jess Hallahan's with us today, Ang Onorato is not here today and I introduced Jess before. She's founder of Journey to Yourself and she helps employees at companies with stress and anxiety, and Joe Arcangelo is here. Joe Arcangelo is here I'm stumbling over my words a little bit this morning and I'm going to introduce Joe in a minute and tell you more about him, but here's my question for today. It's about him.

Marc Bernstein:

But here's my question for today. It's about perspective. So you know, half the country's not happy and my advice to people that aren't happy about it is you know, take your moment, grieve, but then you got to move on. You know you got to, you got to live beyond it. That's how I deal with things like that, and I have a lot of things like that. I've dealt with a lot of situations, especially over the last few years, that I'm not totally thrilled with, but you know, life goes on. I mean that's and that's, but that's only one answer. I want to start with you, jess, because you're in the business of dealing with anxiety and stress. You know, what is your advice to people that might be going through this today or on any subject or anything that's beyond their control, that happens and how they react to it.

Jessica Hallahan:

Yeah, of course. So I always like to define the word stress, which is a reaction to change. So this is good or bad, right? So however you perceive the stressor, right, that's on you, and so how your reaction to it is also on you. So my mindset is becoming aware of how you are reacting and what you can do about that reaction, right. So if you're happy, great that's. You're still going to have a reaction. So just you know, being mindful, and if you're upset, that's also fine, but also being mindful and aware of how you are reacting, right. So kind of taking that accountability on yourself too.

Jessica Hallahan:

So awareness is a great thing, Joe.

Marc Bernstein:

how about you? I know you've had situations like this in your life.

Joe Arcangelo:

It's how you deal with them. It's you know I have strong feelings about yesterday, and you know it's how you deal with adversity, or how you deal with success that allows you to stay focused on doing what you need to do.

Marc Bernstein:

Well, said so, good time to introduce Joe. So Joe Arcangelo is co-founder and managing partner of inSeption Group, has a very interesting story and he's going to share it with us today. So, joe and his partner, brian Solpezio did I say that right? Yeah, founded inSeption Group in September 2011 with a goal to restore and rebuild business trust by delivering high-quality clinical outsourcing in a consistent, efficient and reliable manner. With more than 35 years in the outsourcing industry, joe has sought first to understand the intrinsic and extrinsic needs of his stakeholders employees, clients and patients and then built a business designed to meet those needs.

Marc Bernstein:

The inSeption values integrity, trust and passion are a reflection of Joe's personal accountability to his clients and teams, and I know I haven't talked to you a lot, but what I've talked to you about is I know that you have a passion about what you're doing and we'll get into that and they have helped shape the culture of the company. Today, joe is responsible for cultivating and articulating the vision of inSeption, while driving continued growth and sound financial stewardship across all functions and regions. Joe has been the recipient of multiple industry and business awards, including the Ernst Young Entrepreneur of the Year Award, which is a very, very powerful and impressive award this year in 2024. So welcome Joe. Thanks for being here this morning.

Joe Arcangelo:

Thanks, I have nothing more to say. You said everything.

Marc Bernstein:

Good job. Well, thank your marketing person, because I'm just reading she did a good job. She did a great job, congratulations. So we're here to have fun. It's part of it. So I'm glad we're laughing and you have an interesting story. You didn't start out on this path at all, so tell us about your humble beginnings and what happened since.

Joe Arcangelo:

You know, in preparation for this, I asked how far you wanted me to go back. So I'm going to go back to my birth. How's that sound?

Announcer:

Yeah, I like it.

Joe Arcangelo:

You know, I was a change of life baby and I'm the youngest of five and because of that I think it taught me independence. I had to be independent growing up. What was the spread between you and the others? My oldest brother is 20 years, and then 18, 13, and then 10. Gotcha Got it.

Joe Arcangelo:

So, you know, my parents are older and, being an older individual, I understand the energy sap that happens. So I had to do things myself. But I grew up lower middle class and happy to grow up there. I had a really good group of friends. I had a really great upbringing. But I was destined to be something. I was destined to be a priest, destined to be a union guy, destined to be a policeman. And again, none of those things are bad. They're all awesome opportunities and awesome careers and I was following that career.

Joe Arcangelo:

And then one day I was unceremoniously fired from a supervisory job that I was doing. I was working for a division of Car and Driver magazine and in a two-year period I took this region I was responsible for from number 12 in the region 12 out of 12, to number one car and driver magazine. And in a two-year period I took this region I was responsible for from number 12 in the region 12 out of 12 to number one and um, one day they came in and said I no longer had a job. So I remember going home sitting in my living room floor at those days looking at the one ads you know, in the in the sunday paper and looked at my wife because I had a few children at the time and I said I don't think I ever want to work for anybody again. I don't want to put myself into the position that somebody can make a decision that's not in the best interest of me and my family.

Marc Bernstein:

By the way, in some form or another, that's the story of many entrepreneurs that say we've had it, we're going to figure something out.

Joe Arcangelo:

So I didn't know what to do. I had no clue. So I became a real estate agent. I became an insurance agent. I actually studied locksmithing. I didn't know what to be and I met my mentor, all while raising a family, doing the best I could. My wife was working and she still holds that accountable to me.

Joe Arcangelo:

So at the end of the day, I met my mentor at an incubator kind of setting where I was selling video, real estate, pre-internet, and we were putting these videos on kiosks and airports and malls and that kind of stuff. And my mentor who to this day he's now passed, but I will always be forever grateful asked me if I wanted to be a recruiter. And I didn't know what a recruiter was. I thought he was asking me to recruit for the Army or the Navy. I was like, no, I don't want to do that. Well, I learned what it was and at the end of the day, 39 years later now, I'm still doing what I'm doing and still consider myself an executive recruiter and frankly, I can't imagine doing anything other than what I do for a living With that. I parlayed that experience into outsourcing. I parlayed that experience into building an outsourcing company and here I am.

Marc Bernstein:

This is what I do into building an outsourcing company and, um, here I am, this is what I do Interesting. So you had obviously challenges along the way in terms of getting to where what you ultimately wanted to do, and then you started a business with a partner, Um, and you started with certain values, Joe, that, um because you saw what you didn't want to do. Do you want to talk about that for a second?

Joe Arcangelo:

Yeah, I had spent 16 years or so at a prior company that when I started there I was a headhunter and we were about a million dollars in business and by the time we were finished we were an outsourcing company doing about $380 million worth of business. And about two years prior from my departure there, we were awesome you know best place to work in Pennsylvania low turnover, high client satisfaction. We really, really had and built something that we had set out to build and then, somewhere along the line, the company became enamored with profitability and the company became enamored with the need to generate more revenue and at the time we were pretty much we hit critical mass. We couldn't do any more if, in fact, we were going to maintain our culture and maintain our foundation.

Marc Bernstein:

By the way, just to clarify nothing wrong with profitability or increasing revenues.

Joe Arcangelo:

It's awesome. Again, we live in America, right, so we're supposed to be profitable and we're supposed to do that stuff, but at the end of the day, at the expense of what and at the expense of who, and that's kind of how I think about it. At the expense of what and at the expense of who, and that's kind of how I think about it. So at the expense of culture, in a sense. Right, yeah, so it changed. You know, the company began to be what we were convening against for 16 years. And, um, I saw that and although I sat in a boardroom and I sat in the executive committee, I couldn't bang my hand hard enough or scream loud enough to stop that snowball going down the hill. So I quit, I resigned and, being the third employee of that company, I found out that founders aren't allowed to resign, so they threw a retirement party for me. So I retired, I retired from that organization to open inSeption.

Joe Arcangelo:

And you know what inSeption is is? It's a company based upon a culture of delivery, based upon a personal accountability and a personal responsibility to the patients we serve. You know, I don't know if you talked about what we do, but we're an outsourcing company based upon clinical research studies and, based upon the treatments that are in human trials, you know, to determine whether or not they're going to be FDA approved and prescribed in the future. So, at the end of the continuum of the people we serve, are these patients that it's your mother, it's your father, it's your uncle, it's your aunt, it's your sister, it's your brother, it's your child? You know these patients are suffering from illness, some of them terminal illnesses, and they rely on us for collecting the data for treatments that may be effective and safe for them.

Joe Arcangelo:

And we're in an industry that's unfortunate. Over the pendulum shift of the last 40 years of today, the longer it takes our competitors to do the job, the more money that our competitors make. And that is, I think, a problem with me. And it sits with the problem with me, because our job isn't about let me rephrase it we have to be profitable, because I have 280 employees, but my job isn't to lead with profit. My job is to lead with excellence, is to lead with efficiency, is to lead with delivery. Oh, and how about that? We become profitable. What a concept, huh.

Marc Bernstein:

And lead with doing the right thing. It's by your ultimate consumers.

Joe Arcangelo:

So that's who we are.

Marc Bernstein:

That's what we do. So you mentioned culture. I know, Jess, you have some questions around that.

Jessica Hallahan:

I do. I was just taking notes. You just mentioned lead with excellence. You mentioned doing the right things. It made me think about how you have less than 6% of a turnover and it made me think about the study that happened with Sunglass Hut in 2008, how they kept going and kept going while our house was crashing. And it makes me wonder about, like, your company culture and what you're doing. They've said that they were successful because anybody could talk to anybody. What do you?

Joe Arcangelo:

feel makes you guys so successful with your company culture and why your employees want to stay. First and foremost, it's the ability that we have to attract the right people, people I call it the right side of the bell curve, like the 20 percenters of the world. Right, these people have intrinsic qualities of delivery and intrinsic qualities of commitment, drive, motivation, determination any synonym you want to look up for excellence and great. We get them and we can attract them. And when we attract them, we give them the autonomy to do who they are and be who they are. They already have the experience. I don't need to teach them how to do, what to do. I just need to make sure that we give them the freedom to do it the way they want to do it, and that freedom, I think, is what keeps people engaged.

Jessica Hallahan:

I love that. What I hear is like you're giving them freedom to grow, to learn, to understand with their own personality and the space for that, so I really appreciate that a lot.

Marc Bernstein:

And, by the way, I just want to mention part of it starts with picking the right people. Obviously, your background helped you a lot with that, because you've been picking the right people your whole career, I think.

Joe Arcangelo:

Yeah, 39 years as a recruiter, as a headhunter, is testament to the fact that I kind of do the right thing.

Marc Bernstein:

If you had to describe in a few words, before we go to commercial break, what are the primary things you're looking for when you're picking the right people.

Joe Arcangelo:

Personal attributes, who they are, what they're made of Character people. Personal attributes, who they are, what they're made of Character. I can have a person with 20 years of industry experience compared to a person with 20 years of industry experience doing the same job, and one of them is the one we want and the other one I don't. It's who they are, it's what their makeup is.

Marc Bernstein:

That's an interesting observation and it's a recurring theme on the show. We ask that question a lot to people and I'd say more often than not they say character. We can teach people to say we can teach anything, but you can't teach character, you can't teach depth, you can't teach who a person is. So it's a great lesson and a great time to take a break and hear a minute about inSeption Group and we'll be right back.

Announcer:

inSeption Group, a full-service clinical outsourcing company, supports biopharmaceutical companies through every stage of clinical research and regulatory submissions. Founded in 2011 by two partners with decades of experience, inSeption emerged from a need to bring back patient-focused, employee-led, client-centered service to an industry that had become transactional, faceless and overly profit-driven. Today, a team of professionals driven by science, fueled by passion and committed to quality work together to deliver meaningful, high-quality results. In the changing landscape of clinical research, we're creating a new kind of future, one where integrity outweighs self-interest, where transparency cultivates trust and where people deliver on their promises.

Marc Bernstein:

Welcome back to Founders Forum. We're here with our guest today, joe Arcangelo. Jess Hallahan is in the studio with me Jessica Hallahan, but she's like a Jess to me. So that's how we're doing it. I have Ann sometimes, I have Jess sometimes. Anyway, we were just talking about your business and how you got there and how you picked the people and your company culture. Joe, it wasn't a smooth ride to get to starting the business and I know, because you're an entrepreneur, it's not really a smooth ride every day in running the business. I know some of your challenges, but what would you say are the biggest challenges you have to face as an entrepreneur in your business?

Joe Arcangelo:

Today it's probably capitalization. You know we've built the company to about $30 million. You know we've built a company to about $30 million and I like to say we built a company with Band-Aids and paperclips to that point. And we have aspirations. You know we have aspirations to get to that $400 million, $300 million number that I think would build a legacy company that we're building and in order to do that we can't continue to do what we do to got us to 30 million. So we need an influx of capital, we need some capitalization and a difficult part about that is like I can't. I can't get capitalization of somebody who's wants to sell me to a big box zero, because it'll change the culture and all the people who are coming to me for the culture and for the reasons of who we are. I'm not going to do that to them.

Marc Bernstein:

So whenever there's a challenge, usually the leaders of the businesses have some strength to deal with those challenges. You've dealt with them up to this point. What strengths do you feel you have to accomplish those? Because you've mentioned $30 million revenues, which is not a tiny business, but you want to do 10, 15 times that over the next several years. So what do you bring to the table that you think will help you get there?

Joe Arcangelo:

I said this earlier. I think there's a fine line between being stubborn and stupid. I am steadfast in this belief of who we are and what we do and I don't waver from it, and none of the people in my business will waver from it. You know, we have a solution to a common problem and to almost an acceptance of mediocrity today. We have a solution and we're not going to change that.

Marc Bernstein:

And yeah, so your strength, I would say, is in passion, commitment, faith, yeah, perseverance, those kind of things, right Gotcha. Yeah, jess, you have any follow up to that?

Jessica Hallahan:

Sorry, I was just listening. No, I like that you're talking about. When you're talking about that solution, what I hear is that you're being very solution focused, and I think that also why maybe you have such a good employee culture is because they feel protected and safe. So I think not only do your clients, but also your employees feel protected and safe, so I think that's awesome.

Joe Arcangelo:

Yeah, and the solution orientation that we have. You know our clients are happy with us. You know we have 97% client satisfaction, which is again in our business. People are winning awards for 56% client satisfaction and to us that's a participation trophy. We're not interested in that. So for 97%, I think that's awesome. It's a good signpost that we're doing something right.

Marc Bernstein:

It's amazing. You also mentioned prior that you have your turnover rate is, I think, 6, on an employee base of 280 employees, which is really impressive. Um, I assume what we just talked about as part of the reason, but can you elaborate on why your turnover rate is so low?

Joe Arcangelo:

Again. I mean Jess asked that just a few minutes ago, but I think it's. It's the culture. It's the culture. It's it's. We hire experienced people and we let them utilize their experience to do the right thing and we painfully go through evaluation of people, like it's. We have a very interesting process that's kind of proprietary, that we do our evaluation Well.

Marc Bernstein:

I knew there was more to it. That's why I followed up on that question. I had a feeling there's some secret sauce there. We do our valuation Well. I knew there was more to it. That's why I followed up on that question. I had a feeling there's some secret sauce.

Joe Arcangelo:

there we do. We have a little bit of a process of how we do what we do, and it allows us to attract the best and the brightest.

Marc Bernstein:

Gotcha. Joe, we've been talking a little bit about the future and a question that you chose that I like to ask so I'm glad that you chose it is if we're sitting here and it's November 6, 2027, and we're looking back on the last three years, what would have to happen. And because you're a passionate guy and your soul is into this business, I can tell from the times we've talked. You know what has to happen, both professionally, in the business level, and on the personal level, for you to feel like that was a successful three-year period in your journey.

Joe Arcangelo:

Yeah, you know there's a magic number in my head of 100 million, and the 100 million, I think, gives us a level of credibility in my business that we can then become the legacy company that I want to become, to build it to higher than that. At that number, I think the infrastructure should be built and that's what my goal will be over the next three years is to continue to build that infrastructure. You know we built a $30 million company without salespeople. I need them if I'm going to get to $300 or $400 million. So that's part of the infrastructure. There are other things I need, like a financial system other than paperclips and rubber pins. But, yeah, we need to hire internal people to help get us to the next level.

Marc Bernstein:

and uh, yeah, 100 million, three years, that's the goal um, I have an idea for you we can talk about after the show maybe a way to to pursue that um with with a little bit of outside help, because there are people that I've been talking to that that's kind of what they do. They help people, great, help you to help put all the people in place that you need to get to where you're going. I know you're a reader. What kind of books do you like to read?

Joe Arcangelo:

My old administrative assistant love her to death. She was going for an MBA and she came in one day and she said you've got to read this book called Good to Great. And I'm like Good to Great, never read it. Well, I read it and it's now become my Bible of life. That's Jim Collins right, absolutely. It's just a wonderful book and I would highly recommend it. You know, eckhart Tolle, the Power of Now.

Joe Arcangelo:

I think is a very, very awesome book. You know from a perspective, jess, that the power of now is kind of important Live in the now, don't live in the past or what you perceive the future to be. And then I have a third one and that's the leadership qualities of Attila the Hun. You know, when I was in high school I was kind of a geeky, kind of a world cultures guy and I loved Attila the Hun and the Visigoths and Roman culture. And one of the things that I get from that book is, if you don't have a qualified successor to your industry, your business can literally fail.

Joe Arcangelo:

And Attila the Hun was on the verge of overthrowing Rome and he was slain and he didn't have a valued successor.

Marc Bernstein:

Well, that actually leads me to another question I had. That's a great thing because you have told me I don't think we've said it on the air that it's not your intention to ever really sell this business, which means you need successors and maybe elaborate on what your long-term vision for the business is and what succession would look like in that instance.

Joe Arcangelo:

Yeah, you know, my business partner used to be one of my employees and he helped me build a particular niche at the old company and he is bright and smart and younger and highly qualified. You know, the question that I will have for him and we discuss this frequently is does he want it? You know, the running of a $30 million, $100 million, $300 dollar company is time consuming. So we're in the process now, over the next two or three years, of whether or not we're going to hire a CEO or hire somebody who's going to be able to manage it. You know, if he doesn't want it, my preference I want him to take it, but you know he has younger kids and he has family and other things, so we'll see. But he's highly qualified, winning, capable and I would love to see him.

Marc Bernstein:

Might it be he and some other people.

Joe Arcangelo:

Yeah, sure Could be. I mean, you know I always tease him, I'm never leaving, I'm going to be there all the time and you know I'll be coming once a week, once a month, whether I'm retired or not, just to make sure that things are on track. So he's never going to get rid of me.

Marc Bernstein:

Do you have a leadership team to look to? We do, yeah, we do, so that's great. I'm going to throw a couple others. We only have a minute or two, but I'm going to throw a couple surprise questions at you. Do you listen to music? Because that's a big thing for me. Do you like music? I?

Joe Arcangelo:

do. What's your favorite music? I go across the game Of 70s. You know rock and I was a disco kid in the 70s and today I like indie pop, whatever that's called or you know. So, yeah, I like music and frankly, you know, kind of like the old Bugs Bunny cartoon when I get stressed, I listen to classical music really, really loud and kind of just soothes my soul.

Marc Bernstein:

We should talk more about music. Very similar tastes and very similar. I use classical music that way as well. So, jess, how about you? I've never asked you that.

Jessica Hallahan:

Oh, my music is typically country, but honestly, I'm also the person who can listen to anything. But I do have a question.

Marc Bernstein:

Go for it.

Jessica Hallahan:

You mentioned. You were talking about like financial systems and sales systems and things like that, and then we went right into reading and things.

Joe Arcangelo:

How important do you think is personal systems as to being an entrepreneur?

Jessica Hallahan:

Define personal systems. So, like reading, you talked about music when we were off air. We talked about golf. How important do you think those are?

Joe Arcangelo:

You know it's you know, I read all the time and I'm reading with an intent of self-betterment and I don't know if that's a a good thing or a bad thing, like I don't read for for fun for fun. I read to learn, I read to pay attention although that's your fun, yeah, well what it is and you know.

Joe Arcangelo:

And the bad side to me is people say, well, what's your hobby? And I'm like works my hobby, which is a problem. Right, I mean that's a problem, but uh, at the end of the day Maybe maybe not. You know, at the end of the day it's. You know, I've been blessed, I love doing what I do and as an older gentleman, to sit there and say I can't imagine to do anything other than what I do every day, that I do it, it's kind of cool, it's kind of fun and I'm proud of that.

Marc Bernstein:

I love that. I'm actually glad you brought that up. I'm in a development group of people that we get together each week and lately we've been talking about there's a story about the British cycling team. I don't know if you know it, but it's quoted in the book Atomic Habits by Jim Clear and the British cycling team was like the worst team in history, like their sponsors didn't want to sponsor them anymore or anything like that, and the coach introduced an idea where we're going to work on tiny little things and we're going to do one thing at a time, 1% things, things that can add 1% to the deal, and they did this consistently over time to where they become the winningest team in cycling in the deal. And they did this consistently over the over time to where they become the winningest team in cycling in the world and you know, the most prosperous and everything else. And they did it through those little habits, which and that's, I think, personal systems is what you're talking about, for sure.

Marc Bernstein:

So, um, so you have yours, Joe. It's just that you, yours, are built around work, and if that works for you, that's great. Everyone's a little different with that. And you have your backup systems when work is too much. You'll listen to classical music, right?

Joe Arcangelo:

Yeah.

Marc Bernstein:

So, hey, listen, I want to thank you all for being here today on Founders Forum. It was really great talking to you, joe, great story and we'll see you all next week. Thank you, jess, for being here. Of course, and we'll.

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