Founders' Forum

Resilient Teams, Big Challenges: Sean Dawes’ Character-Driven Success

• Marc Bernstein / Sean Dawes • Episode 86

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Explore the fascinating intersection of character and entrepreneurship with our guest, Sean Dawes, co-founder of Modded Euros. Sean, a third-generation entrepreneur, brings a wealth of experience from his family's diverse business ventures. Discover how his unique educational background in zoology and work in zoos and aquariums shaped his perspective on passion-driven careers and the financial realities they often entail. Throughout our conversation, Sean emphasizes the pivotal role character plays in business decisions, from handshake deals to hiring practices, offering listeners a nuanced understanding of integrity in the professional world.

Sean's journey is a testament to resilience and the power of a strong team culture. He shares personal stories of overcoming significant challenges, from medical emergencies to the broader trials of entrepreneurship. Uncover the strategies Sean employed to build a company culture rooted in open communication and personal connections, fostering a supportive environment that thrives even in remote settings. Through his experiences, Sean illustrates how perseverance and a cohesive team can turn adversity into opportunities for growth and innovation.

Looking ahead, Sean unveils his vision for blending personal and professional aspirations over the next decade. He candidly discusses his goals, including an eventual business acquisition, while highlighting the importance of character development for future generations. Sean's passion for self-education shines through as he talks about the impactful books that have guided him, such as Phil Knight's "Shoe Dog" and Sun Tzu's "The Art of War." This episode invites listeners to consider the intricacies of the entrepreneurial journey and the continual pursuit of knowledge and personal growth.

About Sean Dawes:
Co-Founder of ModdedEuros.com, an automotive ecommerce retailer specializing in performance and replacement parts for Audi, BMW and Volkswagen applications. Prior to founding Modded Euros, Sean worked in Search Engine Marketing for Turn 5 Inc, Inc Top 500 Automotive Online Retailer which specialized in Ford Mustang and Truck markets.

Connect:
seandawes.com
x.com/SeanDawes
linkedin.com/in/seandawes

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wwwdb860amphiladelphiacom. And WPEN HD2, Burlington, Philadelphia. The following programming is sponsored by Marc J Bernstein. The views expressed do not necessarily reflect the views of this station, its management or Beasley Media Group. Entrepreneur, author and financial consultant, Marc Bernstein helps high-performing entrepreneurial business owners create a vision for the future and follow through on their goals and intentions. Ang Onorato is a business growth strategist who blends psychology and business together to create conscious leaders and business owners who impact the world. Founders Forum is a radio show podcast sharing the real stories behind entrepreneurship as founders discover more about themselves, while providing valuable lessons and some fun and entertainment for you. Now here's Marc and Ang.

Marc Bernstein:

Good morning America. How are you? This is Marc Bernstein. Ang Onorato is not with us in the studio today.

Marc Bernstein:

We have just recovered from a big election season. I say recovered because it was very interesting and, I think, had an impact on all of our nervous systems in some form or another. And one of the things that occurs to me about all of that is the issue of character, which has come up, comes up both sides of the political fence. It comes up every day in life and it comes up often on the show in the form of our you know, talking to our guests, we talk a lot about character. So I wanted to give you a quick quote from Theodore Roosevelt, which, his character is, in the long run, the decisive factor in the life of individuals and of nations alike.

Marc Bernstein:

And our guest this morning is Sean, who I will introduce fully in a minute. But, sean, I wanted to ask your thoughts. I'll just say what I think about this first. I think character is all important, and one of the themes on the show recently has been that many employers that we have on here look at character before anything else in terms of their hiring of people, and some of them have even said the skills aren't that important. We can teach the skills, but we can't teach character, and that's what we're looking for. What are your thoughts about character in terms of your life and business, sean?

Sean Dawes:

Sure, yeah. So I thought about character Oftentimes, even in the past. I'm a third-generation entrepreneur and back in the day for my grandfather I think character was huge. Back then you were doing handshake deals. That's how you got loans, that's how you closed deals and that kind of dissolved over the years. But even present day, I think a lot of my success so far has to do with character in the aspect of even today, I'm still able to do handshake deals, whether it be to get lines of credit from vendors and things like that. Character goes a long way, not only in the business aspect, but even hiring employees, because most of the time when we're looking at hiring someone, we don't even look at the resume. Obviously, if it was a cardiac surgeon, I want to make sure that they got the proper training, but when it comes to a lot of the positions in some of these tech companies, character and just the ability to problem solve, knowing that they'll be able to get the job done, is more important than anything.

Marc Bernstein:

Well, you've already taught us something today Handshake deals you don't hear a lot about that these days, so that's great and I agree with you and in some aspects of my business and my life, I'm able to do that well. So Sean Dawes is co-founder of Modded Euros. That's M-O-D-D-E-D. Modded Euros. It's an automotive commerce retailer specializing in performance and replacement parts for Audi, bmw and Volkswagen applications. Prior to founding Modded Euros, sean worked in search engine marketing for Turn 5 Inc. A top 500 organization automotive online retailer, which specialized in Ford Mustang and truck markets. But it wasn't a direct line, sean, from getting you know out of school to modded Euros or to, let's say, to turn five. There were some other things along the way and you mentioned that you're a third-party entrepreneur, so maybe we even start with that. Your family and they were in an interesting business and how you got here today.

Sean Dawes:

Yeah, sure. So I mentioned earlier that I'm a third generation entrepreneur. My grandfather actually ran for Philadelphia mayor back in the day I forget what year, but he started out with a grocery store, ended up opening a beer distributor. So the grocery store what?

Marc Bernstein:

was his name by the way, emery Dawes, okay. Before my time?

Sean Dawes:

I think yeah before your time, okay, but he had a grocery store and he eventually opened a beer distributor. And then the beer distributor he ended up buying some bars. So at one point the family had a couple of bars and a beer distributor in Philadelphia, mostly in Kensington and Port Richmond areas of the city. So obviously he had some children. He had three boys, my dad being one of them who's a twin. He inherited the business, ran the business and then, you know, continued the business, which I eventually actually sold myself, you know. So if I kind of pause that conversation, you know in terms of myself, kind of my trajectory of how I got there was, you know, I went to Holy Ghost Prep over in Ben Salem, outside of the city.

Marc Bernstein:

Great school Very good school.

Sean Dawes:

You know I always say Holy Ghost is the best education you get. After that I went to something completely different and I majored in zoology, where I went up to Doylestown for Delaware Valley College. I spent time at Philadelphia Zoo, elmwood Park Zoo, adventure Aquarium. I did all my rotations and kind of one of the things I was always passionate about conservation, education for children and stuff like that.

Sean Dawes:

But one of the things I realized in early age was it not necessarily could be a career that could support the family. You know, even in traditional education roles there's not high salaries. You know I think that's a well-known problem in the world. And you know, I kind of saw people struggling, working multiple jobs in order to kind of do their passion. I said to myself well, I could either do this to make a difference or I could become more financially successful and go back and, whether it be on a board of director or volunteer, donate or whatever. So I started looking around for other opportunities. At the time my aunt managed one of the real estate offices down the city and said why don't you get your real estate license at the same time while I was still in college? So I did that. That was in 2008,.

Sean Dawes:

which I'm sure everyone knows, 08 was the perfect time to get your real estate license as a 20 something year old trying to make an income, which that led me to be non-traditional in how I would get leads and back in the day, which is something that's common now, is virtual staging. So back in 08, I was outsourcing all over the world, I was doing three-dimensional renderings, I was doing before and after photos with virtual staging.

Marc Bernstein:

You were outsourcing the virtual work.

Sean Dawes:

Correct, I would do all the photography myself, I would work with the Blueprints and I would do all that stuff, which was very non-traditional at the time. That's how connecting the conversation, that's how I ended up selling the beer distributor back then. I listed it myself. I ended up selling it myself. Working in real estate was rough in 2008. I wasn't a fan of the career because I felt it was a bait-and-switch type of model. A lot of people would say your house is worth 20% more than it was, and I would be honest with what the comps were and just the business wasn't coming through that way. But what I really enjoyed was the marketing aspect and that's kind of how these dots connect. I said to myself I really, truly enjoy the marketing. I was working with real estate developers. I was actually the top listing agent at one point in our office, but the trouble of it was closing the deals because the sellers were up here and the reality was down here and it was 2008.

Sean Dawes:

So that's when I started looking for other jobs, and specifically in the marketing aspect, and that's where I found Turn 5. Surprisingly, it was actually a former Holy Ghost graduate in my class who was working there as a graphic designer and said why don't you apply for an entry-level marketing job here at Turn 5, which they're up in Malvern?

Marc Bernstein:

Holy Ghost has a great alumni network as well.

Sean Dawes:

I ended up applying. Obviously he was down as a recommendation. Having gone to school with him, I ended up getting hired at the position. I worked my way up through a couple promotions there, Really enjoyed it. Turn 5 is an excellent company. They're constantly getting picked off Employees. There's kind of like a circle of big companies up in that area that try to pick off talent, QVC being up there. Qvc and Turn 5 constantly compete for talent and I was getting job offers left and right.

Marc Bernstein:

By the way, I just want to stop you for one second and hold that thought. It seems to me which I didn't pick up when we first talked that you knew you were going to be an entrepreneur from day one. Oh, day one.

Sean Dawes:

I'm 38 years old and I've only worked for someone, probably for a year and a half two years Gotcha.

Marc Bernstein:

Since college, If you don't count retail, I worked retail Okay let's go back to your story, but I just wanted to point that out For sure, that it was in your blood and you saw it immediately when you sold the beer distributorship and you looked at it. You were a realtor, you were an entrepreneur as a realtor and you were an entrepreneur, I'm sure, as you went along until you got to Mataduras.

Sean Dawes:

Correct. Yeah, so I mean, at that point I was at turn five. You know, a lot of people were, you know, as normal they get promoted or they go to other positions. And I said to myself, I see an opportunity to start something. I was consulting on the side because, like you said, that entrepreneurial mindset and I was making income on the side and I was actually generating more income on the side than it was at my day job. And I said to myself, look, I'm in my at the time.

Sean Dawes:

What 20s and this is something I tell young entrepreneurs all the time is, you know, I'm 38 now, with two children. You know a wife and a home. You have more, let's call it. You know financial liabilities, right, you have obligations. You know you have to take care of kids, pay a mortgage and all these things. But when you're in 20s, if you're living at home, maybe, you know, still out of college, right out of college, time to risk it all. And I said to myself I'm either going to do it now or it's going to be much more difficult.

Sean Dawes:

And that's when we decided to leave and I started a marketing consulting firm. First, I took two of my co-workers from turn five with me and the three of us did marketing consulting. Now you might say, well, why the heck did you go from the automotive back to marketing, back to automotive e-commerce? And one of the main reasons is, when you're planning any business, you need to figure out and this kind of goes back to even your skill set with financial planning is you need to have a financial plan? How are you going to fund the business? Everyone thinks, oh, I'll just go out and raise cash that doesn't exist. So what we did was we used the marketing consulting as a way to bankroll the financing to build the e-commerce business.

Marc Bernstein:

So you knew where you were headed. There was a vehicle, so to speak, to get there.

Sean Dawes:

When you quit your job unless you have a trust fund. You need to have an income right Sure, of course. So we did the marketing. We only picked up enough clients that could pay our three payrolls modest payrolls. We weren't living large at the time and we used additional cash flow to fund the business. Our initial plan was we took about maybe $50,000 to fund the business, build the e-commerce business, and that's what we did. And we finally picked a market. We were looking at all kinds of markets.

Marc Bernstein:

How long did that take to build up the cash to do?

Sean Dawes:

that Not long. I mean we were consulting for a business. The longer part was waiting until the business became cash flow positive, right? Because if you have a marketing company that's paying your salaries and you start an e-commerce store, let's say day one you sell one product well, you made $20 profit. You can't all three quit your job and then live off of that. So we had to figure out that plan. When did we feel comfortable enough to then literally start firing our marketing clients? And that's what we did. We wound down that business and then we went strictly into the automotive e-commerce, working out of free office space, free garage space. My one business partner, his father, had a veterinary hospital and he had some free office space and he had a couple garages and that's what we started out of Interesting and then kind of that's the transition. We continued to grow that. We were in Ardmore for a number of years. Then we went into Westchester and we have Warehouse From there. We kept expanding and we hired employees and so forth.

Marc Bernstein:

So that sounds like a smooth road type of story, 100% Textbook. Well, I'm going to venture to guess that it wasn't that there were some challenges along the way. What kind of challenges did you face, Sean? Yeah, sure I you face, Sean.

Sean Dawes:

Yeah, sure, I think I think everything right. So I mean, um, we, we found in what 2013,? Um, you know there's some big challenges that we've had. You know we've been. I probably can talk. We've been sued by the federal government. You know we've had to deal with the EPA. We've had, um, you know, not at our own fault, just learning lessons of things that are out there.

Sean Dawes:

We've had Volkswagen of America contact us. We've done private label manufacturing where one of our first things that we manufactured was broken after we placed a decent-sized order and we started testing it on our own vehicles, driving them daily and then things breaking, having to throw pallets of inventory out because the R&D process was something that we had no experience in. You know there's been a ton. You know capital constraints. I mean you had, even recently, covid. I mean COVID pretty much wrecked a lot of people. I mean your revenue nosedived when everyone kind of panicked.

Sean Dawes:

But I think the underlying thing that I always say you know everyone's story is different and you know you could dissect each and every thing this is the exact situation that happened for us and here's how we got through it, which is great. But the underlying thing, I think, is always you just can't stop. I think too many people look at the aspect of I've got to give up. I have this bill, I'm getting sued if you're not succeeding. I always say, in order to succeed, you're Like I have this bill, like I'm getting sued, which you're. If you're not succeeding, you're you know. I always say, in order to succeed, you're going to have things, you're going to get sued Like it's inevitable. Right, it's part of success. But if you don't stop, that's the biggest hurdle that you have. Too many people just stop and give up.

Marc Bernstein:

I almost chose another quote this morning. It's interesting. You said that, and it's actually unknown. I don't know where I got this or who said it, but success is never final and failure is never fatal. It's courage that counts. Correct, it sounds like that applies pretty well.

Sean Dawes:

Well, 100%, I think it was. Elon Musk even said there's a quote being an entrepreneur or doing this, it's like eating glass and smiling or being happy while you're doing it, and it's 100% true. You know, I had back in, let's say, 2017, that's when we had to deal with the EPA or, excuse me, that was 2018. 2017, I had major GI surgery. I had an emergency rushed to Abington in the suburbs.

Sean Dawes:

I was in the hospital. I took no days off. There's photos of me in a hospital bed with my MacBook. I have tubes down my nose, tubes down my throat and I'm still working, Not a single day off. I just got out of major surgery and I spent a week in the hospital and that whole week I was answering calls, I was working with my laptop. I had family bringing me my computer every morning and taking it home with them at night, you know. So it's that drive.

Marc Bernstein:

Especially when you're starting a business. I mean it's right you have to do that, right. I'm thinking today you might not be as no, but I mean that goes back to your original original quote, right?

Sean Dawes:

So I'm the first in. You know I'm up at 4am. You know, still 13 years later, up at 4am, I'm into the office by 6am, if not earlier. You know, I think you know, looking at the character quote that you started off with, you know when someone you know and I forget who said this quote. But you know, business is like war and this is no disrespect to any of those who served, but business is like war without bullets. You know you need to be a true leader and have character and to lead people into a business type battle. You don't need someone who just sits it out.

Marc Bernstein:

Yeah, I have that picture a lot of wearing armor. You know, as you go out every day, it's kind of like 100% yeah. So tell me about your. You have a partner in your company and you have employees and it's time to take a break. So we're going to do that and we'll come right back and talk more about that.

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Marc Bernstein:

So we're back with our guest today, very interesting guy, sean Dawes. It's been fascinating talking to you and we were just talking, sean, about. We're just starting to talk about your employee culture, your partnership. You know how have all these people impacted the success of your business? Obviously they have. And what do you think your strengths are that have had you as a company, that have had you? I'm asking you two separate questions, but I think they're closely related. Had you weather the storms that you've been through so far?

Sean Dawes:

Sure, I think one of the biggest things is how close your team is, both in person and, obviously, in 2024, a lot of people working remote. I've outsourced since probably 2008. At this point, I used to outsource some of my homework back in college. But I think maintaining that culture, not only in the work environment but also in the personal environment, strengthens the bond, and you know I'll go back to what I just spoke about recently.

Sean Dawes:

Earlier was the fact of you know, when we each have, you know and I'm only speaking for myself, but personal challenges, whether it be medical or other personal related things, being that support system, you know, because that builds that close bond. And I think one of the things that you find in a lot of companies is usually especially as companies grow is honesty becomes a problem. When I say honesty is a problem, it's constructive criticism. You have internal politics that start to get into play where someone can't criticize a project or something that's wrong with the business, whether it's a feature of the website or a function or some aspect of the business. A lot of people get very defensive. When you have that close bond, that open communication because you know the person, it becomes not only respected but then they say okay, as a team, how can we work together? It just makes a very tight group network of individuals. You can still have that outside, even with we do have a couple people in the Philippines for customer service and stuff like that supporting them.

Sean Dawes:

I mentioned off-air to you there were some tragic events with tropical storms and stuff like that supporting them, and I mentioned off air to you you know there were some tragic events, you know, with tropical storms and stuff like that, which made some of our employees out there, have no power and no water, you know, we took care of them. We put them in hotels, took care of their families, you know, and said don't worry about work. You know, they're very their character was saying how can I work? I'll find a co-working space, I'll find this. And we said don't worry about it, you know. But then when we had issues, you know, whether it be medically or whatever, those individuals then became supportive of ourselves.

Marc Bernstein:

Um, and it's just, it's made an amazing team because of that it's going to ask you how do you cultivate that bond, but it sounds like through action by character, right, you know character action yeah, I mean, you can talk one thing, but your actions speak much louder right? Um, I know that you think ahead. It sounds like you were thinking ahead since day one. I love that you outsourced your homework. You learned a lot in college. That's one of the things you learned.

Sean Dawes:

Well, a successful CEO surrounds themselves with smarter individuals, Right right?

Marc Bernstein:

Well, also, look, I've mentioned to you Dan Sullivan, the strategic coach, before. One of the things he says is focus on your unique ability and delegate the rest, which is another way of saying outsourcing. Do what you do and find the best people to do what they do and surround yourself with them. So, looking to the future, as I know you do, 10 years from now, if I were to ask you this is November of 2024, if it was November of 2034 and we're talking, what would have to happen, Sean, for you to feel that that was a successful 10 years in your business and in your personal life and anything else you want to talk about?

Sean Dawes:

Sure, I think I'm going to mix it up with my response here and there's a famous quote it's actually from the movie Interstellar where it says once you become a parent so I have two children once you become a parent, you, you become the ghost of your children's future. You know, and I think business is fantastic, but to me business is a vehicle, right? So there's always that juggle of time and money, right? So you know they're actually equal. Time is money and money is time. You save time by spending money. As you earn more money, you can spend it in order to save time, and vice versa, you might be going bargain shopping for your groceries or whatever, because you're spending time in order to save money.

Sean Dawes:

I look back at that on anything I do and I always say does this make sense for the future, the 10-year future? Can I look back and say I made the memories, I did the right decisions, not only in business that taught my children those lessons that go back to character? I always teach them about character, how to handle a situation, even if I have a 2-year-old and a 6-year-old, they come home from school they're frustrated about playing kickball. I try to teach them that aspect, because those aspects carry forward into whether they have a job, they have a business. To me, that's the 10-year plan. The business stuff is great, but at the end of the day, when you're on your deathbed, nobody says I wish I had another Ferrari. They all say I don't care how much money you have. I wish I had more time with the people that cared about me and that I cared about about me and that I cared about.

Marc Bernstein:

So on the personal side, it's really to help grow your children, help develop your children, help them find their way in their lives. How about on the business side? Do you have a 10-year vision for your business as well?

Sean Dawes:

Correct. Obviously I would like for the business to be acquired. Obviously that's the goal of any entrepreneur. But in terms of that, the biggest thing that I've talked to other individuals who have sold their businesses is that question of what do I do when I grow up? So if you do that, oftentimes it becomes what am I going to do next? That becomes the question. We've had opportunities in the past of being acquired. But then you say, well, what would I do?

Marc Bernstein:

I know from talking to you you're not going to retire and just twiddle your thumbs. I know that for sure. Correct. So what are your thoughts about that?

Sean Dawes:

I think one of the things that COVID taught me was and I don't want to say it's a failure, but one of the life lessons that I learned from that experience is I wish I started learning earlier. In college and high school I didn't really love education as much, but once I got out I found the interest in reading tons of books, self-educating. I taught myself how to code from COVID. I mean, I knew minimal things, but that was one of the most beneficial things was learning more about the business, and you know, for me, I think I would kind of expand upon that and spend more time learning.

Marc Bernstein:

To be honest with you, so that's what you would do. Then what has to happen? So we talked about your exit strategy, probably to sell. By the way, I've had people on recently that have said never going to sell. They want their business to be their legacy and they want it to go on because they're in businesses. Someone we had on last week actually said private equity are the ones always buying and I don't want to sell to private equity because I went through one of those before and they ruined the business and I'm not going to allow that to happen again. But that's your exit strategy and I think it makes sense, particularly for the type of business you have. What do you have to do over the next 10 years to have that happen?

Sean Dawes:

So obviously you know top line revenue growth and increased profitability. I mean, at the end of the day, it's just there's simple calculations for that right. But I think the bigger hurdle is what does my own personal 10 year look like?

Sean Dawes:

And, to be honest with you, I haven't figured out that answer yet, because that's a very difficult thing and I think keeping yourself open and always um open-minded to what could potentially be next is is key, but there's no textbook, and I think that's the biggest thing, for any entrepreneur is like you know, even there's plenty of people who have e-commerce businesses, but there's no textbook.

Marc Bernstein:

You know there's no playbook that you do.

Sean Dawes:

You know a, b and then there's C, you know, and there's C, and sometimes you have to seize opportunity as it comes your way.

Marc Bernstein:

Do you have a number of goals in mind that you think you need to hit before you have an?

Sean Dawes:

exit, Not necessarily no.

Marc Bernstein:

Do you think the exit? Do you think it's a 10-year plan that's realistic, or do you think it's beyond 10 years?

Sean Dawes:

No, I think that's realistic. I think it's realistic and I know you said go looking at business versus personal, but it's 100% personal.

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If you had the opportunity to sell the business and then you had to move to California, not interesting.

Marc Bernstein:

I don't care, Yep gotcha, you mentioned a lot reading. I know you're a voracious reader. Do you have a favorite book or anything you're reading right now that you'd like to share?

Sean Dawes:

The past two that I read. What was it? Last week, or the past two weeks, I finished two more Phil Knight's Shoe Dog, the story of Nike and how Nike started. I think that was a fascinating read. And then, on the same vertical, I decided to read Do Something that Matters, which is the founder of Tom's Shoes. So you have a for-profit shoe business and then you know, a more philanthropic venture with Tom's, you know, buy one, give one away to those in need.

Sean Dawes:

And I think the reason why I like to read a lot of these stories is and I mentioned earlier in our conversation is there's always an underlying message when you read any of these books, as the fact of you know, I mean, nike almost went bankrupt I can't tell you how many times over the years, for various reasons, but at the end of the day, there's always that consistent message of just don't stop. And that's what I've learned Also just do it Right, just do it. And it's true no matter what. If you just back yourself into the corner and there's a famous quote burn the bridges or burn the boats. Rather the idea of, in order to take the island, you just burn the boats.

Marc Bernstein:

There's no other option when it comes to business you kind of have to put yourself in that position. Interesting, I never thought of it until we're having this discussion. That just do it was maybe a message to itself to Nike 100%. Sean, a couple other quick things. If you were speaking to your younger self, what advice would you have to give, which I assume would be consistent with the kind of things you want to teach your children?

Sean Dawes:

Start sooner, start sooner and fail faster. I mean, I think I waited until my, let's say, mid-20s. I think I was 25, 26, something like that. I wish I started sooner. I might point out to our audience, you're not exactly an old man at this point, but it takes time and I think, a lot of people overlook that the overnight success or whatever things are, a decade and that's what goes back to your 10-year conversation that we just had is what you start today. It might take 10 years of just grinding.

Marc Bernstein:

I might point out to you, you did kind of start sooner because everything you did led up to what? You're doing today and we've talked, we've danced around this a little bit, but legacy like if you were to describe what you'd like your legacy to be. What does that look like?

Marc Bernstein:

I think, knowing that my children's character is judged very well by others, you know, yeah, we have just a little bit of time left and I know you have other books you'd like to talk about, because you mentioned several of them to me before the show.

Sean Dawes:

I mean, I think there's. You know, like I said, I just read. I think this will be an interesting to give you an idea of my background. Is you know?

Sean Dawes:

I read you know, the two books Shoe Dog and Do Something that Matters, which is about kind of retail commerce and doing something for others. But prior to that I read Sun Tzu the Art of War, which is a very famous book, a lot of military academies and stuff like that. So for me it's always a well-balanced. I read business strategy, war strategy, and then also read, obviously, about more like an autobiography of businesses because that tells the story of challenges that they've been through.

Marc Bernstein:

You're a fascinating guy with a lot to share. Really appreciate you being here today, sean, and I'd like to thank all of you for being here today on Founders Forum and I hope to have you listening next week. And everybody, have a great day and keep on smiling.

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