Founders' Forum

When Setbacks Shape the Story: Dick DeNenno on Resilience

• Marc Bernstein / DickDeNenno • Episode 121

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From growing up on a dairy farm to leading a successful packaging machinery company, Dick DeNenno’s story is one of faith, resilience, and entrepreneurship. As founder and president of Reliant Packaging Machinery, Dick has spent 35+ years in the industry and built a reputation for being knowledgeable, attentive, reliable, and likable.

In this episode of Founders’ Forum, Marc Bernstein talks with Dick about his unexpected journey—from teaching in Rome and pursuing ministry to navigating financial struggles and ultimately creating a thriving business serving the food and pharmaceutical industries. Through challenges big and small, Dick shares how integrity, persistence, and faith guided his path.

Key Takeaways:

  • Entrepreneurship is often about seeing a need and finding a way to meet it
  • Integrity and relationships matter more than quick wins
  • Faith and perseverance can carry you through the hardest seasons
  • Why building a business is also about building a legacy

Dick’s story is a reminder that success is less about the straight path and more about staying true to your values no matter where the road leads.

About Dick DeNenno:

Dick is the Founder and President of Reliant Packaging Machinery, LLC, an industry leading manufacturer’s representative agency in the Northeast. Reliant Packaging Machinery are brokers for Product Inspection Equipment, Packaging Machinery, and Automation equipment predominately for the food and pharmaceutical industries. He has a wife of nearly 40 years, 3 children with spouses, and 6 grandchildren.

Dick grew up on a dairy farm outside of Philadelphia, received a BS in Education from the University of Colorado and then a Bachelor of Theology degree. While his original intent was to become a full-time minister, the ministry of which he was a part, changed direction and he had to pursue a secular career. He has been in the packaging machinery industry for the last 35 years and has visited over 3,000 manufacturing facilities in the US and abroad. Prior to founding Reliant Packaging Machinery, Dick worked as a Regional Sales Manager for 2 manufacturers for over 10 years, covering most of the 50 states at one time or another. He is about to visit his 50th state next month when he and his wife, Charlotte, celebrate their 40th anniversary on an Alaskan Cruise.

Dick’s sales philosophy is to be KARL – Knowledgeable, Attentive, Reliable, and Likeable. 

My life motto is: “Self-sacrifice is the passion of great men.”

Connect:

Website reliantpackaging.com

LinkedIn linkedin.com/in/dick-denenno-93b1938/


This episode is brought to you by Reliant Packaging, Providing All Your Packaging Machinery Solutions. Go to reliantpackaging.com to learn more.

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Announcer:

The following programming is sponsored by Marc J Bernstein. The views expressed do not necessarily reflect the views of this station, its management or Beasley Media Group. Entrepreneur, founder, author and financial advisor, Marc Bernstein helps high-performing business owners turn their visions into reality. Through his innovative work and the Forward Focus Forums, Marc connects entrepreneurs to resources that fuel their success. Founders Forum is a radio show and podcast where entrepreneurs share their journeys, revealing the lessons they've learned and the stories behind their success. Join Marc and his guests for a mix of inspiration, valuable insights and a little fun. Now let's dive in.

Marc Bernstein:

Good morning America. How are you? Hey? Like we've done on the last show, we're going to get right into it with our guest today, who is Dick DeNenno, and I'm going to introduce him and then we're going to get right into it. Dick is the founder and president of Reliant Packaging Machinery LLC, an industry-leading manufacturers representative agency in the Northeast, an industry-leading manufacturer's representative agency in the Northeast Relying in packaging machinery, our brokers for product inspection equipment, packaging machinery and automation equipment, predominantly for the food and pharmaceutical industries. He has a wife of nearly 40 years, three children with spouses and six grandchildren.

Marc Bernstein:

Dick grew up on a dairy farm outside of Philadelphia, pennsylvania, where we are located today, received a BS in education from the University of Colorado and then a Bachelor of Theology degree. His original intent was to become a full-time minister and the ministry of which he was a part changed direction and then he had to pursue a secular career. This is part of his story, so I mention this. He's been in the packaging industry for the last 35 years and has revisited over 3,000 manufacturing facilities in the US and abroad, and, prior to founding the company, dick worked as a regional sales manager for two manufacturers for over 10 years, covering most of the 50 states at one time or another. I find this really interesting. He's about to visit his 50th state next month that's one of my goals, dick, but you're ahead of me when he and his wife Charlotte celebrate their 40th anniversary.

Marc Bernstein:

Congratulations on an Alaskan cruise, which I also want to talk to you about. After the show. I'm planning one myself with my wife right now. Dick's philosophy is to be Carl K-A-R-L knowledgeable, attentive, reliable and likable. I like that a lot, and his life motto is self sacrifice is the passion of great men. Welcome, dick.

Dick DeNenno:

Thank you very much, Marc, and thanks for having me here.

Marc Bernstein:

It's my pleasure. So it's an interesting story and, as always, fitting it in the 28 minutes is going to be a challenge, so we're going to cruise right into it. Dick, as I mentioned, is education, and we're going to start with around age 21, when he found himself in Rome, which became his first entrepreneurial venture. So let's talk about that and how it led into your other ventures entrepreneurial venture.

Dick DeNenno:

So let's talk about that and how it led into your other ventures. So after I graduated from college, as you said, 21 years old, I bought a round trip ticket for one year later to Rome, italy. I did not know the language, I did not know anyone, I didn't have a visa, a job or a work permit. I just went there. Third day I was there, I got a job teaching English as a foreign language, but the school year ended in June and I was staying until August.

Dick DeNenno:

So what am I going to do? So I walked down to the train station and, because actually I'm sorry, I took a bus down to the train station. I used to live right near it, but then later I moved and I looked for American kids and I, when I would find them, I would say I'll give you a walking tour of the city for five bucks, which back in the 70s was a good amount of money for a kid trying to backpack across Europe, anyway. So I did that until I left in June or, I'm sorry, in August, and that was my first entrepreneurial venture.

Marc Bernstein:

And then we're going to jump to. Well, Bloomsburg, Pennsylvania. A few years later you were there, and what did you do there?

Dick DeNenno:

A few years later you were there, and what did you do there? So, again, I went back, got my Bachelor of Theology degree, and I moved to Bloomsburg for this Christian organization, and while I was there, though, I had to earn a living, because it was a non-paid position. So 1981 was a really miserable time economically for our country, and I think the prime rate was around 13% and mortgage rates were around 18% at the time, and so it was very impossible to find a job. So I just started a business raking leaves, mowing lawns, cleaning windows, painting whatever I could do to stay alive.

Marc Bernstein:

I'm going to skip around for a second. Your intent was to be in the ministry and you were. Tell us about that and how you switched to business and why you switched to business so I really didn't know what I wanted to do.

Dick DeNenno:

When I was younger, and while I was in college, my brother, who had been going to Cornell at the time, introduced me to an organization and I joined up and participated and they had a leadership training program. So all along I wanted to do that and that was what I was going to do. I was going to be a full-time minister, but the ministry sort of changed directions in the 80s and my wife and I decided that we needed to switch and so we ended up— it didn't align with you.

Dick DeNenno:

Right right their values changed and so we ended up didn't align with you. Right right, their values changed and so we moved back to the east coast to be closer to family, and that time I already had one child and another on the way and we had to pursue. I had to pursue a secular career and I'll tell you, it was very tough, and so any young Christian people who think they should be in ministry to do that switch. I walked around in condemnation for 20 years, thinking I was letting God down, thinking I was not successful. I was a failure.

Marc Bernstein:

It was hard. I might add, by the way, that I skipped our topic of the day. I went right in the story. But the topic of the day is essentially God, and the reason I bring that up is because I've said many times on the show, and I told this to Dick when we first met, we don't do religion or politics, it's really about founder stories, but God is a character in the story and is a compelling part of it that I couldn't ignore, which is why I invited Dick on to the show. So let's talk about Omaha.

Dick DeNenno:

So that's a God story right there, because I had gone for 18 months without a job, just scraping by, and I went every night. For a month All I ate was a piece of toast with a fried egg on it and it was tough. And then I finally got a job, talked my way into a job as the sales manager with absolutely no experience, and I got the job and things were going well and all of a sudden I'm in my kitchen praying and God spoke out loud to me only time in my life and he said go to Omaha. And I was surprised. I'm looking around seeing who might have walked in the house to talk to me, right, anyway, so I did, meanwhile my now wife.

Dick DeNenno:

At the time we didn't know each other. She was in New York, she had gone through four years of college but had switched majors in school, so she had another 18 credits to go. But she just felt very compelled to do something for God. And there was a missionary program, in-country missionary program through the organization. She signed up and guess where? She got sent Omaha, nebraska. So we met the second day and 13 months later we got married and I'm convinced that's the main reason why God had me go to Omaha.

Marc Bernstein:

I have had things like that happen in my life where I'll say that there's clearly a higher power involved in that and a lot of people call that different things, but there's no quite. So when I heard Dick's story and you know he had you might not have heard it, but he had a little bit of tears in his eyes about changing from the ministry, but I know he also gets emotional about how he and his wife met and and God's place and all that. So we, we had to, we had to make that part of the story because it's an important part of the story. So you went to Omaha and what did you do while you were there? Entrepreneurially.

Dick DeNenno:

So I took a job there, and it was, again, not a good fit. And while I was there, though, I ended up doing a couple of different things, and I was selling industrial cleaning chemicals for a company, but I had a disagreement with the sales manager, and I kind of got tired of his narrative. So I had been calling on a company, and they said you know, what we need is not the chemicals, we need the guys to do the work. And I asked him what, and he told me all about restroom sanitation and how he spent so much money, and the person was there for like three minutes. So I said, okay, I'll start that.

Dick DeNenno:

So I did, and then, when I got tired of working for this company, and specifically the sales manager, I ended up going out two days and selling enough business to replace my income, and then, a month later, I did it two more days and doubled my income. And then I started an awning cleaning business, because I kept seeing awnings dirty, and I called a friend who had started a business in Texas doing it. He gave me a lot of information. I called all the awning manufacturers to understand the science and the chemicals and everything that you needed to use, and I started that, and so then I did that for maybe about six months and so the awning cleaning just the six months. Anyway, I sold the business and we moved back to the East Coast to be closer to family.

Marc Bernstein:

I have to tell you that and, dick, if you're okay with me sharing this he was concerned about is his story. Is his business big enough for this show? And, first of all, we've had entrepreneurs of all different size businesses and different stages of business and everything but another piece of your story which is compelling is the fact that you're a true entrepreneur, in that wherever you found the need, you filled it. You know and you did what you had to do for your family, which is the story of many entrepreneurs. So you're right there with many of us. You know who are on the show. So how did you find? How did you get into your current business?

Dick DeNenno:

Another interesting story. So when we moved back, I took the first job that I could and I kept getting stuck in these terrible situations. So I was there and I was miserable. After a couple of months I just started praying every single day, and I just want to say, or to take a step back when I was about three, four, five, my mother taught me to pray and she said at the she said when you get done saying the Lord's prayer, then talk to God.

Dick DeNenno:

And so one of those things about me is that when somebody tells me to do something, I just do it. And so I did every day of my life Back. Those days I would kneel before my bed and pray. A lot of times I'd fall asleep. So I've had this. I talked to God all day, all the time, and so I told him how unhappy I was at this job and I said please get me out of here. I prayed every day for a year, mark, and nothing was happening. And then, finally, one day, I'm on my way home from work and God again spoke to me this wasn't out loud, but it's just a very powerful thought in my mind by the Daily Local News, which is a Westchester newspaper. So I did, went home, looked through the Help Wanted. There was nothing, unless I wanted to be like a Shackley salesman or something.

Marc Bernstein:

No offense to.

Dick DeNenno:

Shackley no offense to Shackley. So then I flipped to the sports section and there was an ad for an over-30 baseball league. I had played baseball hardball all the way up until I went to college and didn't come home in the summers and I kept looking for hardball leagues. Couldn't find one. So I was thrilled. I signed up and about a month later I'm on my way to practice and again God spoke to me. Again he said ask one of my teammates what he did for a living. So after practice we stopped, we talked and he told me all about his company, a company out of Exton called All Fill. So at the end of it I said well, if you're ever looking for a salesman, let me know he goes. We're looking for two right now. And that's how I got started in the packaging machinery industry.

Marc Bernstein:

Very interesting. So you worked there. You went to work there and what happened? How did you come to create your own business?

Dick DeNenno:

So my teammate wasn't the actual guy hiring. There was another gentleman named Bob Dauphiné and I got to give. Unfortunately Bob passed away a year ago but he was the most amazing leader. He was one of the most influential people in my life when it comes to business. He just he really cared about people and he taught me that. He cared about me. And then he cared about our customers and he showed that and demonstrated that over and over again and that really set the foundation for me in sales and so Bob left in 94.

Dick DeNenno:

This was in 90 when I got hired, 94 when Bob left and then after a few years he kept saying you know you should start your own business doing this being a rep, because a regional manager I traveled 17 to 20 weeks a year and it was too hard on my family. So finally I made the leap. But here's the interesting thing I wasn't working for Allphil at the time. I actually switched to a different company and I again was not happy because they doubled my territory and I was traveling then every week Monday to Friday and it was too much. And the night before I got fired from them because I wouldn't compromise on integrity, because the general manager and my boss said he wanted me not to call customers back if they had problems.

Dick DeNenno:

Anyway, what happened was Bob called me the night before I got fired and said Dick, you need to start your own business, I'll help you whatever. And I said I signed a signing bonus. I wouldn't have any income for a while. It's going to be tough. And he said, trust me, it'll work out. The next morning I got fired, so I showed up on his doorstep. That was a Friday. I showed up on his doorstep on Monday and that's when I started the company that became the precursor to Reliant Packaging.

Marc Bernstein:

Machinery Excellent. Well, that's a great jumping off spot. Let's listen to a commercial for your company and then we'll be right back.

Announcer:

Looking for packaging machinery that protects your product and your reputation. At Reliant Packaging, we don't just box things up. We build confidence. Our state-of-the-art product inspection equipment ensures that every item meets the highest standards of quality and safety, from food-safe materials to custom-engineered solutions. Our packaging machinery is designed to maintain the integrity of your products. Whether you're shipping across town or across the globe, reliant ensures your product is protected at every step. From industry leaders to entrepreneurial go-getters, we have the solutions for you. Contact us today at reliantpackaging. com or call us at 610-274-1414 to learn more about how Reliant Packaging can protect your products and your reputation.

Marc Bernstein:

We're back on Founders Forum with our guest today, Dick DeNenno of Reliant Packaging Machinery. You just heard their ad and hopefully, if you're in the market for what they do, you'll be in touch with them, dick. So I know it's not a straight line. We've talked about this A lot of hills and valleys of being an entrepreneur. What kind of obstacles did you face at first as being an entrepreneur and then, specifically, when you started Reliant?

Dick DeNenno:

Well, economics is always the biggest challenge when you start and you put your shingle out, so to speak. Not a shingle, but you have to get customers and it's hard and, like I said, I went a whole month eating one piece of toast with one fried egg for dinner. I lost a lot of weight back then. It's a lesson in that. Yeah, exactly, anyway. But when I started Reliant Packaging again, I was starting from scratch and I had a territory that really hadn't produced much for the manufacturers that I took on and represented. So that was a part of it. But the other part of it was my wife's father was an IBMer from the time he got out of the Navy until he retired, and so she was used to. Ibm took care of everything. You didn't pay a dime for health insurance, they had the country club to be a part of, there was all these social events, and she went from that to marrying me, and let's say it was a big drop-off to be marrying an entrepreneur. But the one thing is she believed in me and she supported me.

Marc Bernstein:

I challenge whether it's a drop off ultimately or not, but maybe in the beginning it was.

Dick DeNenno:

Yes, in the beginning. Right, it was a very difficult transition at first, but I'll tell you, when I did get fired that time that I mentioned for not compromising on my integrity I told her. I said, honey, I said I'm going to give you one hour to freak out. He goes. But I got fired. But then God's either real or he isn't, and God promises to take care of our needs, and so she did. She went up, took a shower and she came down. She goes, okay, and she was ready Cool.

Marc Bernstein:

And then what happened right after that? You got fired.

Dick DeNenno:

The first five years were again very tough and we went into a lot of debt. We were debt-free at that point and we went into a lot of debt, but again she believed in me. I believed that it was going to work out.

Marc Bernstein:

Again, not unusual for entrepreneurial ventures right.

Dick DeNenno:

And I'll tell you another intervention. By God I would have been out of business. But in 2006, actually in December 2005, I had been calling on this company for five years and they would get all this information from me and then go buy used equipment. And so finally I talked to the vice president. I said look, meg, I can't keep doing this and she goes. Well, we just hired a new guy and he insisted that we buy new equipment if he comes. So I said, okay. She said, but give it a month because he needs to get his feet on the ground first. I said, okay. Next day or two days later, whatever it was, I'm praying at my desk and God said call Sean Hunt. Okay, this is the guy that she told me not to call. I did, and we later became very good friends and he said Dick, if you hadn't have called me that day, I was going to place the order with another company and it was a million dollars worth of business.

Marc Bernstein:

So that was-.

Dick DeNenno:

Yeah, that was pretty amazing.

Marc Bernstein:

So then, how long has it been that your business has been, you know, going well, okay so yeah, thank you for that transition.

Dick DeNenno:

So 2006 and 2007 were very strong years, but then 2008 hit and it was tough. I mean, it was really tough. And so 2010 came along and I had one child in college no two children in college my wife in a master's program. She had been a paraprofessional in a school district. She went back to school to get her master's. I had to pay for the master's her first master's and then we lost benefits. So I had to go buy benefits and we lost her income. And so all of that came together All at once.

Dick DeNenno:

And June of that year I was sitting on $180,000 in sales to that point and I needed to do about $1.7 million a year. So I'm like, okay, what else am I going to do for a living? And I was really struggling. But the problem is is it takes about six months before you feel the pain because there's, you know, by the time you sell something, it takes six months before you get paid minimum. So December that year, I'm like, okay, we have no money in the bank, we have no equity left in the house to borrow. I had a line of credit. I had maxed it out. I had no idea how I was going to pay the bills in December. But, honestly, god's taken care of me so many ways, so many times. I really wasn't worried, I didn't lose sleep, I wasn't nervous, I didn't have anxiety, I just knew and I was excited to see what God was going to do.

Dick DeNenno:

The second or third of December I get a phone call from a guy I'd never sold to. He said Dick, I have this application. I need you have an x-ray machine. I need the test done, can you do it? So I called the manufacturer and they said yeah, because we had it on consignment, so to speak, and my son and I the one that's taking over my territory down the road, he and I went in in two days and, by the way, the guy asked me. He said how much will you charge me? So I closed my eyes and said God, how much should I ask? And he said $3,000. So I said $3,000. He goes, done, he goes. You get it done already. You check right away. So $3,000 came in.

Dick DeNenno:

Then, a few more days later, I get a call from another customer that I'd never done business with and he said Dick, I have a problem. There's a piece of metal missing. We need to inspect 120 pallets, 90 cases to a pallet, six cartons to a case. We need to take them all apart, put them in. That's a lot bigger job. So the guy who's building we were renting he needed to get involved. So, long story short, I got $6,000 from that, and again almost immediately. So I made $9, dollars that month in a way that I had never had before and never have since, and it got us through. And then the check started coming in January because my sales picked up that June and then that's when things came together.

Marc Bernstein:

It's really amazing. And, again, this whole idea of faith to me is a really important ingredient of the story and I will go on record as saying I believe in faith. You know, and some people have faith in different ways, but in and Dick is as we've talked about, is not here to preach, he's not. You know, he got out of that business a long time ago but he's here to tell a story and his story. You know, as I said, I made an exception and brought him on because this was very different. This was I hadn't met him, we only spoke on Zoom, but I knew he was the real thing and this is stuff that really happens. So I think people need to hear this. By the way, I just want to mention to you I was going to mention you offline but for people that haven't heard it, listen to Arnie Eastburn, another Babcock Ranch story I did listen to it Did you listen to it that was great.

Marc Bernstein:

So talk about crying in the studio on that one. That was unbelievable. And that was the story of. His father was a plumber preacher, and you know. And he said, I'm going to have nothing to do with that. And then where does he find himself? You know, 40 years later. It's unbelievable.

Dick DeNenno:

Doing well. I have a friend that does that in Mali, another friend who does the wells.

Marc Bernstein:

Since I've told that story, there's a lot of people that are working for water in Africa, which is such an important thing, and it's really nice that so many people have stepped up. But that's his whole mission in life right now and he's doing amazing work and that's so important.

Dick DeNenno:

And so 2008, 9, 10, and 11 were very, very difficult years and we accumulated a ton of debt and we had three kids and all of them went to college and it was very expensive plus two years of a master's program to pay for for my wife but then rebounded in 2012, and it started on the way up. 12, and it started on the way up, and then, in 2016, was a life-changing year because I acquired. Well, the way it worked out is I now have five other salespeople working for me, and so then, my income level dramatically went up paid off all the debt and I've been debt-free for several years now, excellent.

Marc Bernstein:

And how about the pandemic? Was that an issue for your business?

Dick DeNenno:

No, the pandemic actually did not hurt us Again, with product inspection and equipment. Food safety is the key part of that, and so people were looking for that at the time, and so we sell metal detectors, X-ray weighing equipment, checkwares and vision systems, and so it really didn't affect us too much.

Marc Bernstein:

I want to ask you something I usually do towards the end. We have about five more minutes, but let me start with this and I'll have some other questions about it your future vision for the company. If you looked at the next year or two and you're looking out what do you see happening?

Dick DeNenno:

Good question. So I planned this all out over. I don't know. For years I've been planning this that I'm going to continue to manage the business for another five or six years. That's the goal and I'm going to handle one account. But my goal is to grow the business, because 90% of our business is just product inspection equipment. But every one of those people that buy product inspection equipment also buys automation and packaging machinery. So I want to expand it. So that's my main thrust that I'll be doing over the next five or six years. But also I'm preparing. My son is taking over my territory. I've been training him for a while. But also we are considering getting into other fields, like the materials. We don't sell materials now, but getting into materials, maybe getting into engineering and automation and those kinds of things. So that's the goal. I want to see Reliant Packaging double, triple in size and be a continued viable entity for many years to come.

Marc Bernstein:

So that's a legacy of sorts for you. Yes, in essence, what's driving you? What does it make? That makes you want to do that? It sounds like you're comfortable now. You don't have to do that.

Dick DeNenno:

I'm a care carer, if you will. So one of the things that I was, my wife tried to convince me for 20 years that I was doing the right thing. And because my customers are not just customers, they're friends, and I've prayed with them, I've counseled them, I've talked to them when they bring things up, I don't force it on them, and so I care about people and I care about the people that work for us. Now I care about my customers. I just want to make sure that they're taken care of.

Marc Bernstein:

Do you see any obstacles in the way of what you're trying to build over the next three years?

Dick DeNenno:

Yes, the thing is that I don't want to invest a lot of money hiring additional people when we're trying to finalize our plans for retirement, and so it's going to be my son's job to sort of make that go in the future, and the other sales guys I don't want to take away from them.

Marc Bernstein:

Is your son up for the task?

Dick DeNenno:

I think he is. In fact, he's better than me at so many different areas.

Marc Bernstein:

I know I got some instructions from him regarding the show today, so I know he's actively taking charge. It sounds like he's very creative.

Dick DeNenno:

He thinks way beyond what I do, and he's also an expert on CRM and things like that, so he's much better than me at those kinds of things.

Marc Bernstein:

So you've got the right guy coming up. I think so In terms of. So we talked about legacy a little bit. If you were talking to your younger self and giving yourself advice, what advice would you give you?

Dick DeNenno:

Believe in yourself and don't let others persuade you otherwise. I had a few leaders early on that really really deeply impacted me in a negative way, and so I would say don't listen to the noise. Trust in yourself, you're going to be okay.

Marc Bernstein:

Another question I wanted to ask you, because I know you have one, is what is your favorite song?

Dick DeNenno:

The song I Can Only Imagine by Mercy Me, and there's a movie about that. I strongly recommend if you haven't seen the movie, to see it. It gives you hope for the future and that's what we all need. We all face difficulties and challenges. We need that hope for the future and that's what that movie does.

Marc Bernstein:

I have not heard of it and you just told me about it before the show. What is it about the song that you love?

Dick DeNenno:

heard of it and you just told me about it before the show, is it? What is it about the song that you love? So, bart um, the guy that was the writer of it, uh, he had a lot of struggles and this is the song that he wrote that helped him to overcome. It'll help you overcome too all right, very good.

Marc Bernstein:

Well, with that, we're going to play a song of mine which is called should I, which which actually is kind of relevant to your story a little bit. But we're not playing the words, it's just the music. It's my little plug for the album. It's from the album called Like Herding Cats by Fretz, bridges and Skins and it's our theme song for the show. So with that we're going out and thank you, dick, so much for being here and telling your powerful story and thank you all for listening to Founders Forum this week and we'll look forward again to speaking with you next week. Thanks, Marc.

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