Leading a Legacy Through Uncertainty with Karla Trotman

What does it take to step into a family business, honor its legacy, and still make it your own?

Marc Bernstein welcomes Karla Trotman, President & CEO of Electro Soft Incorporated, to share her remarkable story. From the company’s humble beginnings on her family’s kitchen table to becoming a trusted manufacturer for the defense, aviation, and transit industries, Karla has guided Electro Soft through challenges and growth with vision and grit.

Key Takeaways:

• How doubt can actually be a powerful leadership tool
• The difficult—but necessary—family conversations that shaped her path
• Taking the reins just before the pandemic, and how she pivoted to keep her team strong
• Why strategic planning, community, and adaptability are her keys to success

Along the way, Karla also shares insights from her book Dark, Dirty, Dangerous: Building the Vibrant Future of Manufacturing, and what winning EY’s Entrepreneur of the Year Award meant to her.

This episode is a must-listen for anyone navigating leadership transitions, managing change, or simply looking for inspiration from a leader who embraces resilience and authenticity.

About Karla Trotman:

Karla Trotman is the President & CEO of Electro Soft, Inc., one of the largest independent electronics contract manufacturers in the Philadelphia Tri-State area, serving aviation, defense, and transit industries. She's the author of "Dark Dirty Dangerous" and Entrepreneur Of The Year® 2024 Greater Philadelphia Award winner.

Connect:

Website electrosoftinc.com
LinkedIn linkedin.com/in/karlatrotman/
Instagram instagram.com/karlatrotman
YouTube youtube.com/user/electrosoftinc

This episode is brought to you by Electro Soft Inc., Trusted in Custom Electronics Manufacturing for Over 35 Years. Go to electrosoftinc.com to learn more.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Intro: Leadership and Doubt
• 6:23 MLK's Humanity and Leadership Doubts
• 10:50 Carla's Background and Electrosoft History
• 15:12 Family Business Transition Challenges
• 20:14 Navigating COVID as a New CEO
• 24:56 Future Plans and Personal Balance

Transcript

Announcer: 0:00

The following programming is sponsored by Marc J Bernstein. The views expressed do not necessarily reflect the views of this station, its management or Beasley Media Group. Entrepreneur, founder, author and financial advisor, Marc Bernstein helps high-performing business owners turn their visions into reality. Through his innovative work and the Forward Focus Forums, Marc connects entrepreneursfocusforumscom. Good morning America. How are you? Hey, I'm going to ask Eric, our engineer, that little Rocky commercial that was on the radio.

Marc Bernstein: 0:48

Was that TJ's voice? Who was it? It's okay.

Announcer: 0:52

That was someone that used to work at the station, oh, okay, okay.

Marc Bernstein: 0:55

Well, good morning Eric, Thanks for being here, and good morning Karla. How are you? Good morning, I'm going to introduce Karla to you in a second, but we're going to get right into our topic of the day. Sometimes we, you know, we talk about the weather, talk about what's going on here in Philadelphia, but we're going to get right into it. We. So we talked. I saw a post that you did about a book that you just read and I won't give it all away. We might talk more about the book later, but tell us about the book, and it really has to do with having doubts and how doubts are handled by leaders. So tell us about the book and where you got that and your thoughts about it.

Karla Trotman: 1:33

So I just finished reading one of the newest books about Martin Luther King by Jonathan Eig. I guess E-I-G is his last name and I think you know. Do we need another book about Martin Luther King?

Karla Trotman: 1:48

Well, there's new information that's come out about him recordings and people are more prone to talk about him now that he's been gone, now that Coretta's gone, and the thing that struck me was the pieces of doubt, and the thing that struck me was the pieces of doubt, the pieces of information that led to us understanding how often he doubted himself his bouts of depression, and it's the first time I felt very connected to this leader that we've looked at for so many years.

Marc Bernstein: 2:23

And I just thought it was absolutely Because you realized he's human, I guess.

Karla Trotman: 2:24

Well, it's fascinating, right. You feel connected to someone's humanness, their humanity.

Marc Bernstein: 2:29

Yeah, I can imagine I've actually thought about that, because what he was up against, you know, and he knew his life was in danger Like every day. He was out there pretty much.

Karla Trotman: 2:40

Yeah.

Marc Bernstein: 2:40

And he had lots of opposition and lots of opposing forces within his people and outside and government and all kinds of things.

Karla Trotman: 2:53

People doubted him a lot. His allies doubted him. People changed the way that they felt about him overnight. People were trying to kill him and he knew that he didn't walk around with a lot of armed bodyguards, but he knew that he would not be on this earth for a long time.

Marc Bernstein: 3:11

So the theme, I think, because this is a show about entrepreneurs and leaders, I don't think anybody doesn't have doubts, right? What did you get out of it personally? How did you connect with that on a personal level?

Karla Trotman: 3:24

I think who doesn't doubt themselves? But I think as leaders sometimes we have a false sense of a false armor that we wear. Sometimes. We have to always feel that we have the right answer, but I think that true leadership comes from being able to say I don't know when you don't know, and seeking outside help and counsel, which I'm not sure King really did. I didn't get that from the book.

Marc Bernstein: 3:49

Oh, really Interesting. That's interesting. I would have thought he would have you know, you would think that.

Karla Trotman: 3:54

Well, I think, as a man of faith, he found comfort in prayer and scripture, absolutely. I guess that is his form of therapy. That's therapy in general for a lot of people.

Marc Bernstein: 4:05

Well, and that is looking for help on the outside too, it sure is.

Karla Trotman: 4:08

But as far as you know, modern day that we look at as leaders outside of prayer, that now it's more acceptable to get therapy or to have community.

Marc Bernstein: 4:19

Right, I even think like his closest people inside a circle, like Andrew Young was one of them, I think, and some of the people that were, I think they doubted him at times too, because they knew I'm sure there was a strong sense of what they were up against.

Karla Trotman: 4:35

Yeah, well, I think most people we are a culmination of the things we see, hear, do and experience. So everyone is experiencing things in real time, their own real time, and to find alignment is really difficult for leaders, but that's also what helps us, that's our super power being able to draw in other people's experiences to formulate our best decisions.

Marc Bernstein: 4:57

I love that, so I was going to ask you how you handle it, but you just explained it. Number one is don't be afraid to say I don't know. And secondly, to draw in other experiences and wisdom, but you just explained it. Number one is don't be afraid to say I don't know yeah.

Marc Bernstein: 5:05

And secondly, to draw on other experiences and wisdom and into your world to help. Yes, excellent. So this is Karla Trotman. She is president and CEO of Electro Soft Incorporated, and she's also the author of Dark, dirty, dangerous. The Building the Vibrant Future of Manufacturing. Did I say that right?

Karla Trotman: 5:29

Building the Vibrant Future of Manufacturing, the Building of there was a word missing.

Marc Bernstein: 5:33

I got it. That's what I didn't get. So I mentioned that Electro Soft is one of the largest independent electronics contract manufacturers in the Philadelphia tri-state area, serving aviation, defense and transit industries, and, in addition to being an author, she's the Entrepreneur of the Year in 2024 Greater Philadelphia Award winner. That's from EY, right.

Karla Trotman: 5:56

Yes.

Marc Bernstein: 5:57

Yeah, excellent. So congratulations on that, thank you, and I feel like I know Karla because she's a great communicator and poster and we've talked several times over the years, but it's the first time we're really getting to know each other. But I feel like I have a lot of your background because you share so much and I congratulate you on the content that you put out there.

Karla Trotman: 6:16

Yeah, thank you.

Marc Bernstein: 6:19

So let's talk about business and Electro Soft. So Electro Soft was founded by your dad. About business and Electro Soft. So, Electro Soft was founded by your dad and I actually met you through him, because I called on him as because this manufacturing group I was working with and and I well anyway tell it. Why don't you tell the story how he started the business and and how it evolved to become you as the leader of the business?

Karla Trotman: 6:44

Sure. So my father's background is in electronics industry, electrical engineer, master's in computer science. His last job was overseeing instrumentation of DNA analyzing equipment. So he would design the equipment, oversee manufacturing and write the software. And the company was acquired and decided they no longer wanted to be in instrumentation and you could either take a six-month package and do whatever or you can work and try to find a job, under the premise that you can. It's easier to find a job if you have a job. And he decided to leave, take the money. And while he was figuring things out, someone asked him hey, you know how to make cables, can you make these cables? And he did and they thought they were great. Someone asked him for more and he brought someone in that was also laid off and they started Electro Soft on the kitchen table of our Ambler home.

Marc Bernstein: 7:39

You were making the cables there originally, right? Yes, your mom helped.

Karla Trotman: 7:44

No, my mom definitely did not help?

Marc Bernstein: 7:45

Oh, she did not help.

Karla Trotman: 7:47

Okay, my mom was the bank in a sense because she was working full time as a systems analyst.

Marc Bernstein: 7:53

She was funding the whole deal.

Karla Trotman: 7:55

Yes, so I say, they both started the dream.

Marc Bernstein: 7:59

She was definitely. I knew she had involvement. That was her yeah.

Karla Trotman: 8:02

I mean, she held the family down financially while dad was trying to build the company.

Marc Bernstein: 8:07

That's great and it kind of took off right. It became a preferred vendor, I would say, for a lot of people right.

Karla Trotman: 8:16

Yes. So we did exactly what my father did. We would meet with companies, design equipment, oversee the manufacturing and write software for it. That's the name Electro Soft with electromechanical assembly and software. What wound up happening was that there was more of a need for stateside manufacturing with a high mix of products, lower volumes, so we wouldn't be in direct competition with Asia, and we worked primarily with defense and industrial clients.

Marc Bernstein: 8:45

And normally the show is called Founders Forum, so we bring on the founders of the business. But I found your story very intriguing because in a way you came in, you didn't work in the business, you came from outside of the business and you ultimately worked with your father for many years and then I took over and I'd say, kind of recreated the company. Is that a fair assessment?

Karla Trotman: 9:07

Yeah, I think sometimes we think that the next gen comes in and they're just given like this golden highway, and everything is just so easy. But oftentimes we think fundamentally different about business because our amazing family, our parents, had given us these great education, these great networks, and now you're able to see the business in a different light.

Marc Bernstein: 9:31

And taught you, in a sense, to think differently, maybe, than what they did.

Karla Trotman: 9:35

Absolutely my background's in supply chain logistics. I have an MBA, I worked in that field and I was successful in that field. I had an online business at the beginning of e-commerce, so I understood how marketing was shifting towards inbound marketing and search engine optimization. I wanted to help the family business not suffer through that transition, because a lot of companies did, and that's really what caused me well. That and having a family caused me to think differently about legacy, about the future and what I really wanted out of life.

Marc Bernstein: 10:12

Right, and you have. We've talked about your husband, who's an attorney, works in this building we found out this morning and you have two sons, correct?

Karla Trotman: 10:22

I do.

Marc Bernstein: 10:23

And they're at an interesting time in life, correct?

Karla Trotman: 10:25

Yes, One is an upcoming freshman at Hampton University and the other is a rising senior at the prep.

Marc Bernstein: 10:35

Nice. So explain to people what the prep is. Oh, I'm sorry.

Karla Trotman: 10:40

St Joseph's Preparatory School in North Philadelphia.

Marc Bernstein: 10:44

Not everyone listening may know that, but it's a pretty. I know it to be friends and colleagues who went there and it's kind of like a kind of like a club to be in if you go to the prep.

Karla Trotman: 10:55

It is, and I was surprised as a kid in middle school that he knew that going in.

Marc Bernstein: 10:59

Oh did he? Yeah, he's like.

Karla Trotman: 11:01

That's the community that I feel that I need to be a part of.

Marc Bernstein: 11:03

Good for him that he had that foresight, because those connections, I can tell you, are big and I had a guy on my team for many years who went to the prep and I would call on clients and after a while I knew to start bringing him out. It made a big difference and they immediately welcomed them into the world, you know. So you had all that going on, so you came into the business and what happened then?

Karla Trotman: 11:28

Well, it was supposed to be a shift. So I said to my dad I'd love to take over the family business and he's like, are you sure? It's just you've never really been interested, because what child wants to take over their family business? Like no one.

Marc Bernstein: 11:40

Right, I shared with you. I had no interest, but then I had a brother that did eventually.

Karla Trotman: 11:46

Yeah, I think it's. Some parents push it Mine did not and they were looking at selling and I said don't sell it, I would love to take over. And so my dad and I worked side by side for what was supposed to be three years ultimately became 11 years.

Marc Bernstein: 12:02

A little hard to let go A little. Yeah, it's like enough. I know that one from my own family too. Yeah, yeah.

Karla Trotman: 12:09

We actually had a come to Jesus moment where I said look, I am of a certain age where for women, it's harder to get a job because you expect a certain salary, you have experience, and that's usually when they don't really want to hire you. And if you're going to still linger, I'm going to do something else while you hang out here, and maybe I might come back here, and maybe I might come back. I was offered an opportunity to take over other people's family businesses as well as an equity partner, which was not exactly what I wanted to do, but I did want to move on with my life, your preference was to take over this business, if you could.

Karla Trotman: 12:46

Yeah, and I'm the type of person I don't give an ultimatum unless I'm willing to live with both sides. And he said you know you're right, let's do this transition. And so I started doing family business meetings with my parents and my two brothers so that they could see what it would look like if we transition the business, and all three of us were equal partners.

Marc Bernstein: 13:09

That was the original plan.

Karla Trotman: 13:11

Oh yes, and how'd that go? That was probably around year eight of three more years three more years, oh, okay.

Karla Trotman: 13:19

So during that time period. So I think this is why I love family meetings. It gives the family the opportunity to see who's going to take over. What is it like when they work together? So the questions were what are your assets? How much do you owe? What is your like when they work together? So the questions were what are your assets? How much do you owe? What is your credit score? How would a banker assess you as a credit risk or what have you? And ultimately, a lot of things came out of that. One of the things was that I didn't think I could work with my brothers, and so I decided that I told my dad I can't work with them and I wanted them to see that.

Marc Bernstein: 14:01

You didn't know that going into the family meetings, I did not.

Karla Trotman: 14:03

I mean, I kind of had an inkling because you know how banks they look at, your assets they look at, and I brought a lot to the table because of my career.

Marc Bernstein: 14:11

Well, and I also assume you knew your work ethic, you knew your skills that you brought to the table and you know your brothers to a certain extent. So I'm sure there were questions about whether you could be in that kind of co-leadership position for a company, right?

Karla Trotman: 14:30

Right, and that was an issue for me. And I love my brothers, I really do. But you know you can't be partners with everyone that you love.

Marc Bernstein: 14:38

Right. That could be disastrous in many cases. Yes, and.

Karla Trotman: 14:42

I know it's all about equity, so your family wanted you to take over the business together to be equal. But everyone wouldn't be contributing equally.

Marc Bernstein: 14:51

Karla, this is a great jumping off point. We're going to take a quick commercial and we'll be right back.

Announcer: 15:16

What sets Electro Soft apart? Every single product benefits from at least 30 years of hands-on electronics manufacturing experience before it leaves their facility. They are fully up to date on all industry and quality standards, giving you the confidence that comes with working with a well-respected partner Ready to outsource your electronics manufacturing to proven experts. Visit Electro Soft to discover how Electro Soft four decades of family-owned excellence can power your next project.

Marc Bernstein: 15:51

We're back on Founders Forum with our guest today, Karla Trotman. So great to have you here, Karla, thank you. So we got just to the point of the family meetings and then obviously it was decided that you would take over the business, and I'm sure that went very smoothly and there were no problems, right.

Karla Trotman: 16:11

Yes, great.

Marc Bernstein: 16:14

So tell us about that. What kind of challenges did you face in taking over the leadership of the company?

Karla Trotman: 16:20

Well, it was really extracting my father away from the day-to-day because it was confusing for the staff. Right, we brought them in and we said for the last three years Karla been running the company behind the curtain. If you haven't noticed anything great, she's going to continue running the company and I'm stepping away. And he would still come in, which I welcomed. But we needed to have some separation of what his day-to-day duties were going to be. And I thought we had that conversation, but he blatantly ignored it. So when I told him that he was creating confusion, he said well, I'm here to consult. And I said, yeah, nose in, feet out.

Marc Bernstein: 17:02

I like that. Well, you know it's hard to give up your baby. To a certain extent, right, it was his baby. You know he created it.

Karla Trotman: 17:11

Yes, I kept him informed in a dashboard of KPIs. Let him still look at financial statements if he wanted to. We've had a lot of conversations, but I think that when you have a family and you're in business together, it's not a normal family discussion. Christmas dinner is about business. You know, birthday parties there's always something around business and it's just really this additional sibling, in a sense, in your family, right so in the very beginning.

Karla Trotman: 17:41

So the interesting part is I took over in January 2020. Two months later, covid hit and everything shut down, yep, and it was awful and my dad just didn't really flinch because at that point we had been in business for 30 years and when you're in business for 30 years, you've seen a lot. And I said I don't think you've ever seen a global pandemic before, like I felt that it was something very, very different. And there were things that he didn't have to go through, like the CARES Act and PPP and all these things that I had to navigate a lot of those things on my own and I think starting out like that was insane, but it did fortify me for a lot of things that came after that up to now currently dealing with tariffs and political uprising, global political issues.

Marc Bernstein: 18:38

I do want to tell you, just as an aside, because of that, I used to work with a lot of manufacturers and I was doing some online stuff, ways to create business, because in my business, you know, couldn't do it the way we normally did it go out and meet people and go to lunch and all that.

Marc Bernstein: 18:51

So not long after the pandemic started, I spoke to your dad because somehow he'd been referred to me and he did say he said you're talking to the wrong person. He said I no longer run the business and he introduced me to you and I knew you, like everyone else, was going through a lot. It was helpful to the people that were in that group because we talked about ways to pivot and ways to recreate the companies, et cetera, things like that. But you were doing that on your own. So what did you do? Because I know you had to make some extreme pivots in order to get through that period.

Karla Trotman: 19:23

The first thing I did was made sure I had community, because I took advantage of other people's information. So we would meet on a weekly basis to find out well, what's this BPP? What's the CARES Act? What are you getting from it? Who's the bank?

Marc Bernstein: 19:36

These were other business owners.

Karla Trotman: 19:37

Other business owners correct in the area and everyone had connections that we were lending to each other. So every single person received their PPP, had it forgiven, got a second round, had that forgiven because we shared the information Internally with Electro Soft. I decided to be very communicative with my staff over-communicating, answering every question they had saying I don't know when I didn't know.

Marc Bernstein: 20:06

And we decided to do face sheeting.

Karla Trotman: 20:07

You were considered essential, right, so they were still coming in, right. Yes, we were off a whole one day, yes, essential because of the work we do for the defense department. So when we somebody had sent something to me like, hey, let's help these nurses and everyone make five face shields, and it was like taking some office supply products and something from Home Depot and you put it together and then we sent them in and people were like elated by it. So I reached out to other people.

Karla Trotman: 20:33

People meaning the employees or the nurses the nurses sorry, the nurses that we sent it to, because they basically said we have nothing.

Marc Bernstein: 20:41

Right, couldn't get anything at first.

Karla Trotman: 20:43

And so I said to my staff I'm like you know, when we didn't have a lot going on at that time, so we still had work, but it was slow. I didn't want to let go of anyone, I want. I still burned through a lot of cash keeping people on and I said, well, I'll buy some more of this stuff and everyone will make face shields and send them to local hospitals. And we did. And then I had a friend of mine who worked for a family office. She was chief of staff and she said I told them what you were doing. They love it and they want to help. And so they wrote a very nice check to us and we called all the suppliers who basically gave us cost for the product. And we made thousands upon thousands of face shields during that time which kept my people busy, kept them employed and helped people across three states.

Marc Bernstein: 21:39

So it was great. So eventually you came out of the pandemic and business was good, I assume.

Karla Trotman: 21:46

It was good. I mean, it wasn't great because it takes about a year and a half, two years to get back, and then of course we have interest rate issues and supply chain issues and tariff issues and it just seemed like we didn't have a really great runway from having taken over to getting to that. But I've started to realize that business is just really about solving a lot of problems.

Marc Bernstein: 22:13

Right, right, and I know you're having challenges today. There's new challenges today which we can get to, but what skills did you develop as a leader to meet the challenges?

Karla Trotman: 22:25

Well, I had to stop just wallowing like this is terrible, this is awful, you can get through that. But then what are we doing? What is the active plan? And it's constantly just moving the ball downfield Sometimes it's just inches and feeling that sense of accomplishment and so leaning forward and failing fast. I know that that seems so cliche, but it really.

Marc Bernstein: 22:46

You really do fail a lot in business you got to work like-. It's a constant theme on the show, by the way.

Karla Trotman: 22:52

Yeah, I mean you got to work multiple problems at the same time, and so when I'm working through things now, I don't know if any of them are going to work out, and so I'm working maybe three things at a time and something that seems like I'm getting a little headway on. I lean more heavily into that thing and still trying to push everything down and really trying to go and accomplish the goals that we have for our strategic plan, whether it's attracting more business, going after more defense contracts or looking into new verticals for us to work in.

Marc Bernstein: 23:24

From the communication we've had and from the things that I've seen you post, you're a planner. I mean you're very strategic in your planning, I believe.

Karla Trotman: 23:31

Yes.

Marc Bernstein: 23:32

And are you good on the execution of the plan or do you require a team to help you with the execution?

Karla Trotman: 23:37

I use something called the one-page strategic plan. It's through the Gazelles Network I guess it was the old Rockefeller's Habit book and what it does is it forces me to look on a quarterly basis, a weekly basis, on what I said I planned on doing. It doesn't mean you don't have to change it, but I also have an advisory board that holds me accountable and actually meeting with them on Friday.

Marc Bernstein: 24:03

Excellent. So, and these are other business owners, I assume, or professionals, retired Some.

Karla Trotman: 24:10

One is my CFO who does my numbers, and it's great, that's great.

Marc Bernstein: 24:16

So you take a team approach, You're the leader, you're creating the plan and you're you're having some assistance in terms of guiding you in terms of how to implement the plans. Yeah, let's talk about the future, because I I well. Let's talk real quick about current issues. I know tariffs has to be one, yeah, and anything else currently that you're dealing with.

Karla Trotman: 24:36

Just really trying to smooth out the bullwhip effect of tariffs. Sometimes our clients push orders at us trying to get ahead. Sometimes they're holding back, which is really hard because you have a workforce that you have to maintain.

Marc Bernstein: 24:48

So just trying to work through those issues. Smooth out the workflow.

Karla Trotman: 24:50

Which is a cash. It's a cash issue cash flow Right.

Marc Bernstein: 24:55

So let's look ahead. So, if we're here, this is now July of 2025. So let's say it's July of 2028 and you and I are speaking and we're looking at the last three years. What, Karla, would have had to happen during that three-year period for you to feel that that was a successful business? And I know your family's important, so you can include personal life in that as well, and I know your family is important, so you can include personal life in that as well.

Karla Trotman: 25:18

So hopefully both of my kids are in college. Still, right, we want to do some more acquisitions of other companies, so we're looking at that, but I think I want to. We definitely want to grow in the area, potentially geographically grow and get closer to where some of the projects we're looking at. And I actually want to maintain my sanity. I think sometimes business can make you a little crazy. So taking more time for myself and centering myself so that I'm not all in just business.

Marc Bernstein: 25:54

What do you do to maintain your sanity? Do you have any techniques for that today? What do you?

Karla Trotman: 25:58

do to maintain your sanity. Do you have any techniques for that today, sparkling rosé there you go? No, I have great friends, travel, just the normal stuff. There's nothing like meditative. I've been trying to meditate. I actually brought in a yoga instructor because I hate yoga. Not that it's not great, I just can't do it. I can't commit to it.

Marc Bernstein: 26:18

I'm a big advocate of meditation. I've been doing it for 50 years consistently, so offline. If you want, I'll tell you how I do it. Maybe there might be something there for you.

Karla Trotman: 26:28

I would love that.

Marc Bernstein: 26:29

Would you? Let's talk about that. I know you're a reader. We talked about the book that you're currently reading, Martin Luther King book. Anything else you want to say about that book?

Karla Trotman: 26:41

Well, I actually just finished it. So I'm a little disappointed because it's almost 600 pages. You feel like you'll never get done.

Marc Bernstein: 26:50

Isn't that something that sometimes you're sorry? It's like a movie that you're sorry it's over. You just kept going right.

Karla Trotman: 26:55

Yeah, I have a stack of books from friends that have written books, but I'm trying to really go through some of the Ryan Holiday's meditations on stoicism. I forget exactly the title, but working on that and just try to focus a little bit more, maybe that's going to be my meditation in the morning.

Marc Bernstein: 27:15

Yeah, that's a form of meditation, for sure. Anything else fun you're looking forward to? Yeah.

Karla Trotman: 27:22

I'm going to France next month on a riverboat cruise. My husband and I celebrated 20-year anniversary in December.

Marc Bernstein: 27:28

Congratulations, huge accomplishment we're alive.

Karla Trotman: 27:31

We didn't kill each other. It's great, yeah, so it's going to be interesting. So it's on the Rhone River, something we've never done.

Marc Bernstein: 27:39

I've heard that's great.

Karla Trotman: 27:40

Yeah.

Marc Bernstein: 27:41

Just to decide, my wife doesn't like she has motion sickness, doesn't like boats. We've been on three major cruises like really high-level ones in Europe and things like that. She said no more cruises, but she said she'd do a river cruise. So we're doing Alaska actually.

Karla Trotman: 27:56

Oh wonderful, we want to see the glaciers before it's done.

Marc Bernstein: 27:58

I heard that's incredible, but if it works, we're going to start with the European ones next. So that's all the time we have. Karla, it's been wonderful to have you here, thank you for having me. I hope you enjoyed your time here and I hope you all enjoyed listening to our time together here and we.